Exploit or intelligent hunting?

[ichinin]

(No, no exploits are presented in this thread!)

I'm just wondering:

Where is the line drawn between an exploit and intelligent hunting/leveling? Earlier, i had a little chat with a GM about a POSSIBLE exploit i was errm.. *caugh* using (i was the one who reported it in so dont give me any sh*t)

What makes an exploit?

Is it against players? Is it against NPCS/Mobs?
Is hiding ok? Is standing somewhere special an exploit? Is standing out of range an exploit?

What do you define as an exploit? I draw a distinct line between smart hunting (Standing on a rooftop or behind a tree to prevent a Decayed brute to kill me - i'm definitly not the only one) to using an exploit (using a b****l on someone with an LE in to bypass the ingame restrictions); I can understand using exploits to kill people who use exploits, like using an LE to follow and spy on the enemy.

I would like to hear from GM's as well as players in this thread.

Thanks,
ichinin

[enigma_b17]

i would call an exploit where u use an ingame feature to ur own advantage to gain something which gives u an unfair advantage over most other ppl in the game.

eg when ppl would jump up on that glass that used to be in mc5 and simply shoot down without being shot back at. Meaning that every1 else in the room couldnt get any parts as they had to dodge the incoming fire from the mc5 super guards

[Kenjuten]

I believe exploit is something that should not be perceptionally possible, but actually is though loopholes in game mechanics.

Examples:

- Casting PSI Shield on other people (This exploit has been fixed long ago, just bringing an example.)

I had more, but I just realized something very critical. ^^;;;;; *points to his own later post down the thread some*

[naimex]

How to define an exploit... that ain gunna be easy ^^

well to try and sum it up.. :: Third party or Ingame modifications/programs, causing advantages of disproporsions towards other runners :: ehhh... modifications to gameplay, PvP, PvM.. non targetable.. auto-aim..... skill boost (via thirdparty programs).... etc.

[enigma_b17]

using a third part program to give urself a boost wouldnt really be an exploit. Thats simply cheating :P

[Kenjuten]

Oh yeah, 3rd party programs that help you fight better is also no-no to me. Thanks for reminding me, naimex

Edit: *looking at above post* Using an exploit is cheating, bub.

Edit #2: Erm...I just remembered. We're not supposed to be talking about exploits on this, eh? 8| shite.

[enigma_b17]

1.well yea using an exploit is cheating but i would considering exploiting seperate to cheating (cheating being a more serious form of exploiting).

2. were not sposed to talk about exploiting? well i think its more were not sposed to be accusing ppl of it or anything like that, this post is simply attempting to get ppls opinions on what they would consider an exploit to be :)

[Kenjuten]

true...

Well, I'll repost the bloody things if/when I get an ok from a mod.

I think we're not supposed to be describing exploits period cuz the higher-ups don't want everyone and their mother taking advantage of said exploits until they fix it.

[enigma_b17]

i c wot u mean although nothing weve said here is still exploitable....anyway swiftly moving on...some1 post somed quick

wasnt me :angel:

[MrBane]

An Exploit is:

Something which the Game Developers do not believe you should be able to do, and do not wish you to do.

Simple. :D

[Benjie]

Seriously, who cares?
In Twenty years when I am the fat 40 year old dictator of America, MMORPG's are gonna pwn the things were playing now. Chances are that if the game is buggy then it won't sell. So basicly start lomming some random skill now. By the time your done go off and play Playboy Online or somthing.:lol:8| Anyway an exploit in a game like that would be sooooo worth getting banned for.:confused::eek::p

So yeah basicly when the mmorpg market is bigger, things will start getting drastically better. Think about what happened round about 1997 time with single player games. :rolleyes: I remember the times before that and they where the good old days. I remember playing unsensible soccer on my Atari STE. I had 1mb of ram coz I was lucky.;)

But if your talking about right now as in right this very moment, an exploit is when it's not abuse, it's not hacking, it's not cheating whining or spamming, but you can still get banned for it. Basicly anything a GM wants to consider an exploit is an exploit. It's not like there are any laws against it. So my advice is contact the gm's with a nice e-mail asking for a list of thins that are not allowed. Just copy and paste your origional post if your a lazy bugger like Moi.:angel: Of course they won't tell you how to do it...

OMG I am ranting. Damn I think I was talking about the olden days...

[Ryuben]

i defein a exploit as useing in game mecahnics agsint the way they were inteded /ment to be used.

example,

hideing in a clip of the map where the mob can't see you but u can see him, and dmg him

meh just my 2 cents

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by MrBane
An Exploit is:

Something which the Game Developers do not believe you should be able to do, and do not wish you to do.

Simple. :D


wow, best explanation so far.

[Kenjuten]

The problem is, what if something's exploitable to the community but not to the higher-ups?

It's either the higher-ups break and do something drastic to the game mechanics in order to fix up the 'exploit', or that the community gets valid reason to not play the game anymore...

[Cyphor]

id say its

a)using a bug to gain an advantage your not ment to have eg bugs to kill le runners
b)attacking from a position its impossible for your enemy to target you from. eg hiding in boxes so you cant be targeted
If theres a posibility the enemy can hit you no matter how remote then its not an exploit.

[enigma_b17]

well if a person sits in a box, u can still hit them using an aoe weapon like a barrel or a moon striker. So would that not negate that as an exploit according to ur definition?

[Kenjuten]

Cyphor, there's one small problem with what you've said...

Sniping.

[ichinin]

Originally posted by MrBane
An Exploit is:

Something which the Game Developers do not believe you should be able to do, and do not wish you to do.

Simple. :D

So how do i know for sure? I know a few places which seem perfekt for camping, it's even got mobs that spawn in the same place. They look designed for campers who wanna be left alone to level up killing mobs.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by enigma_b17
well if a person sits in a box, u can still hit them using an aoe weapon like a barrel or a moon striker. So would that not negate that as an exploit according to ur definition?


The problem is, the person is not supposed to appear INSIDE the box which happens due to a glitch. So that player is using a glitch to increase his survivial. SPLOITZ! :p



Originally posted by Kenjuten
The problem is, what if something's exploitable to the community but not to the higher-ups?

It's either the higher-ups break and do something drastic to the game mechanics in order to fix up the 'exploit', or that the community gets valid reason to not play the game anymore...


If the community thinks it's an exploit then they need to talk and discuss the issue and bring it up to the higher ups. Even if they have to do it multiple times.


Sort of like balance issues or other things that usually get a "fix" from the higher-ups after alot of ranting from the community.

[hinch]

am i the only person in game that cannot get inside boxes?

[enigma_b17]

The problem is, the person is not supposed to appear INSIDE the box which happens due to a glitch. So that player is using a glitch to increase his survivial. SPLOITZ!

i know that yes, but Cyphor said that and i quote


attacking from a position its impossible for your enemy to target you from. eg hiding in boxes so you cant be targeted. If theres a posibility the enemy can hit you no matter how remote then its not an exploit.

but if u hide in a box, whether or not u can be targeted is irrelevant to a barrell or an aoe, ull still get hit by hit, so therefore by his reasoning its not an exploit was my point shadow.

[Mr Friendly]

ex·ploit
1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents.
2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate
3. Taking advantage of a glitch or error in a system
4. An act or deed, especially a brilliant or heroic one.

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh I see. That's why I really don't trust other players definitions of exploits. Because their not consistent. If I snipe someone who's been holy paralysed and they don't have a prayer of reaching the distance required to hit me, is that exploiting? I think not. :p


I still think Mr.Bane's definition is the best. Also to add to his definition, I would say using a glitch/bug/or faulty game mechanic to do something that is otherwise not allowed OR unachievable.

[MrBane]

If you take my explanation of what an exploit is, that's the official baseline explanation. To make it easier for us to judge whilst playing, if we're exploiting, take my explanation and then work it with these:

You want to do something, but to do something, requires an inordinate amount of either:
Luck
Skill
or
Use of bugs

Now, you could say to yourself:

"I can get up there, and snipe, and not get touched, but in getting up there, am I having to take an obscurely lengthy, complicated and difficult route, which almost appears as if it wasn't intended to be a route I could use in the first place?"

Basically, is what you're trying or wanting to do, damned near impossible to do, unless you just manage to do something in a certain way just right?

If it's just an open opportunity, and requires no effort to do it, then do it, I wouldn't see it as an exploit.

However, as soon as a GM says: 'That's an exploit' - Ask him to confirm with his superior, or the Developers, and ask them the simple question:

" Do you want the players to be able to do this, and did you intend them to be able to do this?"

Or alternatively, take this unique perspective:

" Is what I am doing, fair on myself, and the mob I am fighting?"

I've you've got it in such a way, that it's impossible for a mob to attack you, (Snipers can still be attacked), then it's not fair on the mob, then I'd consider it to be an exploit, if they simply cannot hurt you at all.
Although take into consideration the AI.

I don't mean, like X Op, where you can get the Grims into the Outpost, and hide behind the pillar and shoot them dozens of times and not get hit once, because they -could- get to you if they'd just walk around the damn corner, and sometimes, you would get hit.. I'm talking like at X Op when you can shoot through certain parts of certain walls without once putting yourself at risk, and there being no chance of a mob coming to get you.

Yeah, ask yourself if what you are doing is fair on the mob, does it have a fair chance to kill you? If so, then fine, if not, then Mmmmmm... Evaluate what you're doing.

[ichinin]

Originally posted by MrBane
Yeah, ask yourself if what you are doing is fair on the mob, does it have a fair chance to kill you? If so, then fine, if not, then Mmmmmm... Evaluate what you're doing.

Right now for instance, i'm at a semi-secure place where i can camp and shoot everything that moves; it's an open place with a good overal 360' view where the mob currently cannot touch me, unless they got wings. Comming and goind to the place has it's hazards and i must leave the place regularly to collect loot to recyckle to ammo, then i get attacked.

The attacks are not that frightening (it's a low level mob below 50/50) so i know i will survive it - i got healing spell and a few medkits to make sure i survive. Dishonest? i can still get killed by other mobs if they are many but i "clear the surroundings" to make sure they wont be maby.

How about that one? I'm gonna leave that place soon when i level up the next level - only 200K left.

[enigma_b17]

it prob does have a fair chance of killing u, its prob just too stupid to move to the rite position though lol