View Full Version : PK-ers... A part of any healthy MMORPG's community. (valid post)
PK'ers in mmorpg's probabally make up about 10% of the population. These people require a decent l3wt system and a decent "hang out" area to survive. Be it at the edge of town or in an unguarded town or part of town. Half-Core PK'ers need both PK'ing oppertunities and a way out if they want to redeem themselves. Non-Pk'ers (I have to say that this is me) like a way to avoid PK'ers without being forced into gimphood or isolation. It's just a part of every single mmorpg, Player killing and hating player killers. In a lot of ways it drives the game.
Neocron's system is impared. Player Killers loose out because of quickbelts the huge tradeoff and a harsh soullight drop. Half Pk'ers probabally have it the best with the mission system. Non PK'ers and PK haters have it bad because in order to not be PK'ed they need to gimp there characters somewhat by sacrificing a sacrad headimplant slot or become forced into isolation in one of the more remote leveling grounds. THe truth is is that most people who don't want to get PK'ed don't want any kind of PVP invincibility, rather a more organised system with noobie areas and an option to "use there head" and not go where the \pk'ers are. Perhaps also a chance to escape or hide.
Let me elaborate. I will do this by refering to a different mmorpg, Ultima Online. I want to make it clear that I am refering to an indipendant Ultima Online shard and not Origons UO because Origons UO is carebare. For the record the shard name is Neverlands.
In neverlands PK'ers where rewarded. They got to hang around in the Graveyard (main leveling ground) and wait hiden for somebody to stroll along. They would then attack. The person attacked got a chance to escape, however this escape chance was skill dependant. (hiding) If the person was killed then that person died and lost ALL of there items. There corpse was open for anybody to loot.
You would think that this would be very fustrating but it wasn't. The reason it wasn't was because if you where at the graveyard then you wern't a noobie anyway. There were such things as noob dungeons that required you to be of young age to enter. On top of that when you where attacked you where given the ability to hide, so even if the person was 100% better than you you still got the chance of escaping. One other thing is that there where only a few leveling places in Neverlands. About 6 to be precise (not including the noobie dungeon) abd all of them where just as good. So there was always a socialising dungeon to go to and less chance of getting pk'ed.
Now I am going to relate this to Neocron. In Neocron there are tons of leveling places, but 1 "the best" place to level. IE Agressors,(lowbie) and Reloading point. (uber) All of the alternatives are almost guaranteed to be empty due to being rather so-so. When you do get into combat it's either fight or be killed due to Neocron not having turn based combat. If the person attacking you is better than you, your dead. No questions asked. The only good thing for the PK hater is there are hardly any PK'ers, due to Neocron sticking a big gritty middle finger up at the PVP comunity by adding Quickbelts, Soulight protection and harsh consiquences. Not to mention the fact you will probabally only get a shiny new TL3 heal from the Tank you just PK'ed, or perhaps his pants.
So here is how this could be made better.
Make all decent drop items drop randomly from creatures out in the wastes. Not cave mobs. Make caves a leveling place and wastelands a loot hunting place.
Make a noobie area. Perhaps call it a "Training Grounds" and limit it to Rank 20 and below. No Pking.
Remove quickbelts. When you die you loose 1 or 2 items max. No safe slot.
Remove the Law enforcer and make a Head Enforcment to replace it. This head enforcment dousn't stop PVP at all and you can still be killed, but your name is removed from Peoples list and you only drop 1 item. You are not allowed to join a clan with one if these implanted.
This I think would heal PVP in Neocron. Its just one idea but when you comment PLEASE dont be scared to be honest. If you think one thing I said is shit then say so. The reason I post this is because Neocron needs a healthy, diving PK anti PK community. I think it will help the player base.
under the current system there is no gain to being a pker while they have everything to lose.
pkers kills some people, ends with red SL, gets killed with red SL and drops his rare.
the way the current system is its all stacked in the favour of the non Pvper, seeing as now people dont drop there rares, i think the item that drops should just fall in the floor no belt just the item.
i also think that the pker should not have his slots 1 unlocked cos of SL or anything, they should just drop the same way that a "good" player would
but the bad player would be marked (with the red SL) so he cannot go near the city or guarded area without being shot at.
if there keeping the drop rate as it is they should make it so its not simply pointless being a evil red SL pker.
as it is now, you go red Sl and its like time to pop the LE chip in and do a shit load of missions to get it back to green/yellow again
Originally posted by ezza
under the current system there is no gain to being a pker while they have everything to lose.
pkers kills some people, ends with red SL, gets killed with red SL and drops his rare.
the way the current system is its all stacked in the favour of the non Pvper, seeing as now people dont drop there rares, i think the item that drops should just fall in the floor no belt just the item.
i also think that the pker should not have his slots 1 unlocked cos of SL or anything, they should just drop the same way that a "good" player would
but the bad player would be marked (with the red SL) so he cannot go near the city or guarded area without being shot at.
if there keeping the drop rate as it is they should make it so its not simply pointless being a evil red SL pker.
as it is now, you go red Sl and its like time to pop the LE chip in and do a shit load of missions to get it back to green/yellow again
A very valid point. Being red should give you a trade-off, but by no means should an mmorpg punish you that drasticlly for being a PK'er. Especially one that focuses on PVP as it's main characteristic. (aside from the cyberpunk atmosphere of course)
Funny thing. I thought a lot of people 'gave a shit' about this PVP being a problem thing, but nobody seems to be replying to this thread which focuses on the subject. Surely there are more people who have somthing to say.
KRIMINAL99
19-10-03, 05:45
But pkers werent really 10 % of the population in Neocron. I mean if the game was left alone the way it was before eventually some obscene percent like 95% of the players would be PVPing all the time and the game would have been awesome. After I capped the first time I considered leveling my character high enough to compete in special places and ways without pking hindering my progress too much a challenge that added to the game. Before I was ready for that point I should have left in my LE.
I mean if you are saying that pkers are people that kill others of their faction, then maybe 10%, but theres so many people in the game that the main concern about being killed is enemy faction members doing their job.
The group of "temporary carebears" that got the game nerfed was like this temporary majority from the beginning of retail where the players where newbies, thought they should take out their LE, and were immediately pked and complained about it. Any other time but that the time that surge of new players entered at once, hardcore pvpers would have made up the majority in this game and anyone proposing the changes that were made would be laughed off the forums.
IMO there is really enough enemy faction members (at least when the game is populated) to keep pkers busy. (they can join a faction hostile to many others and have a field day) So the soulight changes aren't the end of the world, although KK did earlier say they would not do this.
What is really lame is making all the dungeons in the game Hunting grounds where you lose soullight for pking. The drops are incredibly lame because belts don't get hacked enough by the people who actually made the kill, and they aren't good enough to warrant having them locked. They need to find a way, or better yet multiple ways to tie player interaction back into the game. Before this was done by letting people aquire weapons from killing each other. Up to this point this game has been turned more and more into a PVE clone where PVP is an afterthought when it was designed to be PVP. Albeit with much worse graphics and much less complicated chat/emote/avatar customization.
If I didn't know any better I would think at some point they just let their volunteer staff take over the game and completely ruin its design... I remember up to a point the devs etc were on the forums defending the games pvp system and telling people to use LEs and then all the sudden one day some gm was talking about how bad pking was in the game and how it was going to be nerfed next patch..
The only problem with this argument is that history tells us the real problems associated with unlimited PKIng in a MMOG. UO had no limits on PKs at first and they lost thousands of players to this. The reality is that in a situation where there are no severe consequences to PKing the PKs will simply attack everything that moves and drive off a lot of other players. This is bad for a game. The fact that NC has so few players is partly due to the unrestricted nature of PKing in early NC, and the reason that players don't come back now that the limits are in place is due to no one outside of these forums knowing that there are limits to PKing in NC now.
The fact is that 90% of PKs are asshats that only want to ruin another players experience in the game and tend to avoid an even fight in favour of attacking newbs and weaker opponents. Very few PKs do so for roleplaying reasons or for the challenge of a fair fight. I was part of a group of PKs that roleplayed and did not attack newbs and such but we were in the minority and often in conflict with the asshat PKs.
You can sit here in a little isolated forum and tell each other how PKing is good for a game but it is all bullshit. The topic of controlling abusive players and gameplay is a high priority among game developers and the days of unrestricted PKing are basically over, the market has spoken. All the PvP MMOGs are failing; this one, PlanetSide, and Shadowbane (although a lot of the failure here is due to the massive exploiting going on, we'll never know if SB could have succeeded if the devs had managed to have a brain amongst the lot of them). PvP in MMOGs is going to be controlled so that is consensual in some form, either by requiring a mutually agreed on duel or by having segregated PK servers.
The fact is that there is really not enough PK players to sustain a game. The PK advocates claimed that a huge market share was waiting for a game like SB or NC but when the games launched this demographic somehow failed to materialize.
edit: BTW, Benjie, if you have to put a note on your post title that it is a valid post, most readers will assume that you are full of shit even if you have a valid argument. It just looks bad. You should project a bit more confidence.
It is true that a lot of hardcore " i 0wz0r j00" PKers are just a bunch of asshats. But that's the point, least before you could FIGHT BACK.
IF you lost something, big deal, it happened all the time then.People were used to it. It kept the researchers busy, it kept the constructors busy, it kept the economy rolling ( batches of weapons being made) and everyone was more or less spending money making sure their equipment was always top of the line. Hell, i remember a time when EPRs were being sold daily in plaza one!
What pisses me off are truly, the carebearish people that want a DARK FUTURE, no hold barred game, but then fret when someone punks their little asses. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A DANGEROUS WORLD , not fuzzyland where everybody is happy posing for the cameras, drinking booze and doing some hoverboarding ( like that new mmo called "there" ... think the sims online, only more for the fashion crowd).
HEll man, Neocron is a world where you fuck somebody over a deal, he pulls his EPR and liquefires your punk ass. Neocron is a world where you walk in a red light district, and you FEEL like you in a place that's a close approximation of amsterdam. Neocron is a world where the dude that gets tired of you hogging all the frikking rats starts shooting you just because he hates you.
Now...all the places where conflict will occur ( hunting zones ) have been "gentrified" just like making an old poor section of the city into loftland for the SUV crowd. I'm fucking sad nobody gets PKed anymore in the sewers. Now, the noobs don't even look over their shoulder. They don't have any kind of killer instinct. That's what killed the game man.
Because no one cares, or has to care about getting their asses shot by a bunch of homicidal genetanks with a new weapon to test out.
I'm not going to post a huge reply like everyone else, I'm just going to say what I personally think.
If you don't want to be PK'd, in any way, simply keep your LE in. LE no longer limits your Exp, nor does it make you have to have higher stats for weapons.
There is no reason what so ever to take out LE if you don't want to be PK'd.
Alot of people want to participate PvP but at there own level and don't like the fact that higher level people can kill them. Well that is just a risk to you wanting to PvP. IRL if someone walks down dark walkway looking for a fight and someone pretty weak pops out and you beat them up then you feel good, now if someone strong pops out and kicks your head into a gutter... thats the risk you took in participating in PvP.
Many, many, people say put in your LE if you don't want to be killed then turn around and complain when they are killed. We'll practice what you preach, I do. I have a capped Apu I plan to PK with when he's capped, right now hes nearly capped so I took the chance at taking out his LE. I've only been attacked 1 time, and that person died. But if I was slain I would not care, no matter if they were my own faction or some enemy faction.
I also have a droner named Shujin, he has his LE in. Why? Because I don't plan to PvP with him at all, not sure I will even when he is capped.
Many more people complain about the LE taking up the slot they could be using for a implant to enhance there stats. Well this could be solved by adding a Fifth slot, but what would happen then? I'll tell you what will happen. They still won't use it for LE, they will use it for another stat enhancing implant and complain that its still not fair because they want to have a stat enhancing implant there. But, KK could add a LE only Fifth slot. I think that might be a great idea. Would allow non PvP people to keep all 4 brain slots the way a PvP person would, but protect them from Pk'ers. I'm sure we could all agree to this.
And still, a great deal of people complain that they do not want LE in due to the fact that they can not participate in a clan. Well... Clans are 99% PvP based. And even if we let LE'd people join clans with LE'd and Non LE'd people that would be very bad, due to the fact they could very easily use the LE'd members to spy and they wouldn't be able to be PK'd. But, with alot of work ( and I'm willing to bet it would be alot ), KK could make clans for LE'd only runners and limit them to only 2 Maybe 3 clan features. Clan Bank, Clan Chat, and Maybe Clan Apartment.
So basicly the only way I think we can completely eliminate the all sentences complaining about PK'ing is to create LE'd Only clans with those and only those features I listed, and a Fifth slot for LE ONLY.
Turns out I did make a long post.
What pisses me off are truly, the carebearish people that want a DARK FUTURE, no hold barred game, but then fret when someone punks their little asses. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE A DANGEROUS WORLD , not fuzzyland where everybody is happy posing for the cameras, drinking booze and doing some hoverboarding ( like that new mmo called "there" ... think the sims online, only more for the fashion crowd).
Any world that has sushi bars and shopping centres is not a world where random homicidal maniacs will prosper or even be allowed to live by the authorities, it's bad for business. Anyone who started shooting up PP should be shot down by the various faction guards that are there to keep the peace and keep the customers coming in the door and spending their money.
The tone and theme of the NC world is not the wild west/dark future that people claim it is. A world like you describe should have cities that that at their best looked like the Outzone and at their worst looked like something out of the nasty parts of Fallout.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
Any world that has sushi bars and shopping centres is not a world where random homicidal maniacs will prosper or even be allowed to live by the authorities, it's bad for business. You are right, they would not be allowd to live by the authorities... authorities have boundries though. Neocron is 1 city. there is a wastelands outside of that city, and many red light districts within neocron for such behavior to flourish.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
Anyone who started shooting up PP should be shot down by the various faction guards that are there to keep the peace and keep the customers coming in the door and spending their money.
Depends on who is fighting who really. If a Tsunami gaurd seen a Black Dragon and a City Admin fight, he wouldn't care the least. They are both enemy factions and it would please Tsunami for Cityadmin or Black Dragon to suffer a loss.
And the faction gaurds already shoot if you are enemy faction. So if a Tsunami and a Black Dragon are fighting in front or in Club Veronica, the Tsunami gaurds would start shooting the Black Dragon after about 10 seconds.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The tone and theme of the NC world is not the wild west/dark future that people claim it is. A world like you describe should have cities that that at their best looked like the Outzone and at their worst looked like something out of the nasty parts of Fallout.
Seen the screen shots from DoY? They all pretty much look like that. Also the parts that do not look bad, are monitored by copbots, so are oviously undercontrol.
Man, it shows when you been hanging out more than 50% of the time in pepper park, or the outzone. I swear, this game sometimes feels like mad ass version of "old detroit" ( of robocop fame).
The best times i ever had in the game was in pepper park involved in various gang warfare ( usually with the black dragons shooting up some tsunamis ) because these guys, they live in the same ecosystem, and hate each other's asses, BAD.
The very best time i had in this game was once, i dunno how, pepper park 2 became a fucking firefight as 3 black dragon guards opened fire on 2 tsunami guards. Seeing those crazy guards shoot the shit out of each other, passerbys at first started watching.... then one dude damage boosted a guard.... then suddenly people had weapons out, and were shooting against one enemy guard.
Suddenly, some dude realised that that OTHER dude down there was shooting at HIS guard, so it became in instant slugfest between the guards, the spectators, and 3 cityadmin guys that were just trying to get to industrial. People were going fucking nuts shooting at anything that moved until the copbots from WAAAYYY down there ( the pp1-pp2 frontier) had the time to arrive and started nuking the shit out of everybody ( nobody noticed they were suddenly there). Everybody died. But it was fun.
THAT is what neocron should be like every day.
Originally posted by lullysing
THAT is what neocron should be like every day.
Agree 100%
And new people to the game coming out of there apartment with there LE in and see'ing that, they would love it.
I remember when I first got neocron in beta, Tsunami was my faction and I came out of my apt, walked through PP and caught myself watchin a huge ass firefight.
I loved it and it was probably the thing that got me into Neocron, see'ing the Psi spells flash and plasma firing and a guy with a flamer runnin around.
This is great because people with LE's in can just watch and have fun watching and laughing, maybe even swiping someones dog tags for a suvonier ;P
KRIMINAL99
19-10-03, 07:12
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The only problem with this argument is that history tells us the real problems associated with unlimited PKIng in a MMOG. UO had no limits on PKs at first and they lost thousands of players to this. The reality is that in a situation where there are no severe consequences to PKing the PKs will simply attack everything that moves and drive off a lot of other players. This is bad for a game. The fact that NC has so few players is partly due to the unrestricted nature of PKing in early NC, and the reason that players don't come back now that the limits are in place is due to no one outside of these forums knowing that there are limits to PKing in NC now.
The fact is that 90% of PKs are asshats that only want to ruin another players experience in the game and tend to avoid an even fight in favour of attacking newbs and weaker opponents. Very few PKs do so for roleplaying reasons or for the challenge of a fair fight. I was part of a group of PKs that roleplayed and did not attack newbs and such but we were in the minority and often in conflict with the asshat PKs.
You can sit here in a little isolated forum and tell each other how PKing is good for a game but it is all bullshit. The topic of controlling abusive players and gameplay is a high priority among game developers and the days of unrestricted PKing are basically over, the market has spoken. All the PvP MMOGs are failing; this one, PlanetSide, and Shadowbane (although a lot of the failure here is due to the massive exploiting going on, we'll never know if SB could have succeeded if the devs had managed to have a brain amongst the lot of them). PvP in MMOGs is going to be controlled so that is consensual in some form, either by requiring a mutually agreed on duel or by having segregated PK servers.
The fact is that there is really not enough PK players to sustain a game. The PK advocates claimed that a huge market share was waiting for a game like SB or NC but when the games launched this demographic somehow failed to materialize.
edit: BTW, Benjie, if you have to put a note on your post title that it is a valid post, most readers will assume that you are full of shit even if you have a valid argument. It just looks bad. You should project a bit more confidence.
There are plenty of limits to pking in Neocron though, they just werent encouraged partially at the fault of the GM staff. And they could have been better explained and encouraged by the game itself. (talking about LE). BTW I played UO also and before you go talking about like the most succesful MMORPG out there having lost thousands of players you better have an article or something to back that up. UO STILL has very unrestricted pvp, and their young status is very similar to the LE chip, except that it has no penalties. Which btw the LE could lose all the penalties as well IMO because players would take it out due to boredom eventually and by that time hopefully they would be ready to handle random PVP. There would just have to be defenses against experienced players exploiting them.
Your perception of pk'ers (or should I say projection) is rediculous, if you don't already know. I myself played a random pker specifically because I know that hypocrytical people like you exist in the world and deserve to be shown their lack of understanding of the world through their anger. Although there are some pkers that specifically attack newbies and people unable to defend themselves, that is like 1 in 50 pkers. Most of the complaints about pkers are made up by people out of frustration that they lost in a competive enviornment. I was hunting, I was unbuffed, our clan didn't have anyone on etc etc. It's always something. If there is any generalizations to be made here then its that many MMORPG players can't function healthily in competitive enviorments and came to play MMORPGS specifically because it was the one place where they aren't losers. Meanwhile those of us who enjoy competition and also happen to like video games are forced out of our niche by people who ought to be playing the sims or EQ or some other similar game. Ok so that was a bit harsh but the point is don't get on about pkers because if you were so different than what you claim them to be they would never be able to get to you.
Your assesment of the PVP based mmorpgs on the market is equally rediculous. UO is the original succesful MMORPG that started all the jazz about online worlds and it also happens to be THE most PVP based MMORPG to date. Planetside is essentially an fps that is persistant. It has no character depth, that has nothing to do wiht PVP. How long can you play quake3 straight without getting bored? Exactly. Shadowbane's problem is that its total dependency on players for development of the enviornment is severly limiting without a starting player base of full capacity. Again nothing to do with PVP. Then you talk about Neocron... This games population numbers were more than double what they were now before PVP was nerfed. The new players never had a chance to mature to the point where they would be able to enjoy Neocrons real enviornment because the newbie player function (LE) was completely rejected by the player base (when it shoul have been properly explained, non voluntary to a point etc)
All players who had been playing for a month or more had become totally hooked on the game and didn't leave until the PK changes. Now the game is a wasteland because of the degree pvp was restricted (excessive hunt zones) and made irrelevant to the rest of the game.
Your repeated assertions of other people making unfounded claims and repeatedly doing exactly the same thing makes your credibility level completely obvious.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
There are plenty of limits to pking in Neocron though, they just werent encouraged partially at the fault of the GM staff. And they could have been better explained and encouraged by the game itself. (talking about LE). BTW I played UO also and before you go talking about like the most succesful MMORPG out there having lost thousands of players you better have an article or something to back that up. UO STILL has very unrestricted pvp, and their young status is very similar to the LE chip, except that it has no penalties. Which btw the LE could lose all the penalties as well IMO because players would take it out due to boredom eventually and by that time hopefully they would be ready to handle random PVP. ... What penalties? The only penalty is not being able to be in Clanned and not being able to use the slot that the LE is in.
They took out the Limited EXP Gain, and they took out the Additional required stats to use weapons.
What penalties?
And like I said, if they add'd LE Only clans that can use Clan Chat, Clan Bank and Clan Apt only, ( Can not hold any OPs ) and added a Fifth brain slot which was for LE ONLY. No one would be able to complain because if they did, it would be pure bull.
KRIMINAL99
19-10-03, 07:29
Originally posted by Shujin
... What penalties? The only penalty is not being able to be in Clanned and not being able to use the slot that the LE is in.
They took out the Limited EXP Gain, and they took out the Additional required stats to use weapons.
What penalties?
And like I said, if they add'd LE Only clans that can use Clan Chat, Clan Bank and Clan Apt only, ( Can not hold any OPs ) and added a Fifth brain slot which was for LE ONLY. No one would be able to complain because if they did, it would be pure bull.
Oh did they? I heard people say that but never saw an official statement so I wasn't ever sure. Well anyways possibly it should be made a flag as opposed to an implant, just because new players often want to avoid pvp until they have completely explored the game. But then that wasn't in option in UO and it didn't cause any problems. But then UO wasn't as immersive as a single player experience so who knows. And then again 1 missing brain slot isn't that big of a deal just for fighting mobs.
I think the point of this is that the only problem the LE ever had was that people were taught it had no value. If pking isn't "supposed" to happen when you don't expect it then obviously the LE isn't worth anything. If the game told newbies that you will probably be pked within a few hours of taking out your LE then it would be worth a lot of penalties to them. Playing UO you would be warned by other players really quickly about PKing and if you tried to page a GM about it you would be told to play the game.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Oh did they? I heard people say that but never saw an official statement so I wasn't ever sure. Yeah well anyways possibly it should be made a flag as opposed to an implant, just because new players often want to avoid pvp until they have completely explored the game. But then that wasn't in option in UO and it didn't cause any problems. But then UO wasn't as immersive as a single player experience so who knows. And then again 1 missing brain slot isn't that big of a deal just for fighting mobs.
I think the thing to learn from this is that the only problem the LE ever had was that people were taught it had no value. If pking isn't "supposed" to happen when you don't expect it then obviously the LE isn't worth anything. If the game told newbies that you will probably be pked within a few hours of taking out your LE then it would be worth a lot of penalties. All my new chars I level with LE until at least * maybe 4 Chev. I've never noticed a lack of EXP and everyone I heard from, including UnknownDevice, told me they took out the EXP penalties. ( BTW: I'm on side of PvP if your thinkin I'm not ;P )
And I don't agree w/ the flag thing, I think it should be an implant but have a special slot just for it and that slot would be LE ONLY.
And yea that 1 missing slot benefits you more than hurts you. Example of that: My droner caps every drone he uses 1 level before he gets to the drone. If he used a +5 dex implant in place of the LE, he wouldnt be able to cap it yet. And he'd be using a weapon he can not cap the damage at and his rank would be higher from using that higher TL weapon. So he would be doing not much damage and getting less exp.
KRIMINAL99
19-10-03, 07:40
Originally posted by Shujin
All my new chars I level with LE until at least * maybe 4 Chev. I've never noticed a lack of EXP and everyone I heard from, including UnknownDevice, told me they took out the EXP penalties. ( BTW: I'm on side of PvP if your thinkin I'm not ;P )
And I don't agree w/ the flag thing, I think it should be an implant but have a special slot just for it and that slot would be LE ONLY.
And yea that 1 missing slot benefits you more than hurts you. Example of that: My droner caps every drone he uses 1 level before he gets to the drone. If he used a +5 dex implant in place of the LE, he wouldnt be able to cap it yet. And he'd be using a weapon he can not cap the damage at and his rank would be higher from using that higher TL weapon. So he would be doing not much damage and getting less exp.
Haha never looked at it that way I powerleveled a droner once and was going nuts that I had already stopped getting loot from mobs when i was still only lvl 50 dex/int..
Yeah I must have been gone during the time they changed the LE.
I can totally agree with Shujin that LEd clans would be good, just no owning OPs. That would be perfectly acceptable to me. I'd appreciate a LE-only 5th brainslot, but I'm not counting on it, but LE clans would be great.
I'm kinda half and half on this. PKing should be rewarded when it is in a roleplaying context, i.e. killing faction enemies. Ideally it wouldn't be defined as loosely as that - a Tangent killing a BioTech in Pepper Park would have several witnesses, and they're not supposed to be involved in all out war. But a Tangent party killing some BioTech hunters would be perceived as a good thing by Tangent HQ. Unfortunately I can't see a realistic way to do this, and I think simply being rewarded for killing faction enemies is enough.
When it comes to RPKing, the penalties on it are definitely too high. The drops should be the same for all regardless of SL, but keep the current SL system in. The only other thing to change is to make it possible for an entire clan to lose their faction, and possible for a runner to be removed from a faction whether clanned or not if he is killing other members of his faction. If you kill randomly, you should end up with no faction, and red SL. As we know, killing someone with red SL means you lose no SL regardless of his faction, so factionless runners with red SL from RPKing would appear hostile to anyone (with everything being red) and people would know this. Copbots and all faction guards would KoS the runner.
If the situation was something like this I would be happy, I don't think RPKing should be the norm, but at the same time it does make sense to have dangerous people in a dangerous world.
KRIMINAL99
19-10-03, 16:03
Originally posted by Scikar
I'm kinda half and half on this. PKing should be rewarded when it is in a roleplaying context, i.e. killing faction enemies. Ideally it wouldn't be defined as loosely as that - a Tangent killing a BioTech in Pepper Park would have several witnesses, and they're not supposed to be involved in all out war. But a Tangent party killing some BioTech hunters would be perceived as a good thing by Tangent HQ. Unfortunately I can't see a realistic way to do this, and I think simply being rewarded for killing faction enemies is enough.
Yeah I think that part is fine the way it is too. I mean maybe biotech and TT arent supposed to be murdering each other on the streets, but BD and Tsunami are, and TG and CA certainly are.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
I mean maybe biotech and TT arent supposed to be murdering each other on the streets, but BD and Tsunami are, and TG and CA certainly are.
Exactly. And right now, it's not happening because the places where they will most unlikely meet ( hunting grounds)... the penalties are simply too harsh.
Although there are some pkers that specifically attack newbies and people unable to defend themselves, that is like 1 in 50 pkers.
ROFLMAO!
Yeah, right.
Let's see, first UO had to make newbie items non-lootable because newbs were being picked off as soon as they spawned into the game, then they had to make cities "guard zones" with teleporting guards, then they introduced the reputation system, then they introduced stat loss for PKers, and then they split the servers into PK/No PK mirrors, all because only 1 in 50 PKs was abusive to other players? I guess the PK guild websites that bragged about how many players that they drove to cancel their accounts weren't killing newbs and helpless players, eh? Let's not forget the times that PK gangs were interdicting cities and killing every newbs that tried to walk out because they couldn't teleport.
Oh yeah, the topic of controlling abusive players is on the topic list at MMOG conferences and such because only 1 in 50 PKs is abusing other weaker players.
You're pretty funny, kid.
The fact is that I played 4 years in UO, then spent time on AC Darktide, EQ Zeks, and then a little time on DAoC Mordred, so I've seen PKs in a variety of settings and situations. I know what I'm talking about when I say that 90% of PKs are asshats who kill newbs and helpless opponents. I watched it happen.
KRIMINAL99
19-10-03, 21:11
Originally posted by Alex Mars
Let's see, first UO had to make newbie items non-lootable because newbs were being picked off as soon as they spawned into the game, then they had to make cities "guard zones" with teleporting guards, then they introduced the reputation system, then they introduced stat loss for PKers, and then they split the servers into PK/No PK mirrors, all because only 1 in 50 PKs was abusive to other players? I guess the PK guild websites that bragged about how many players that they drove to cancel their accounts weren't killing newbs and helpless players, eh? Let's not forget the times that PK gangs were interdicting cities and killing every newbs that tried to walk out because they couldn't teleport.
No Im saying that its 1 in 50 players that specifically try to seek out new players and and those much lower than them to kill them. Newbies might get killed when they get in the way or when they happen to wander into a pker, but pkers dont run away from people their own level thats made up bs. Pking is a legitimate way to play any game, especially one like Neocron- and has nothing to do with "abuse".
Your ideas about pkers are merely projections to protect yourself from the reality that you are not the best game player in the entire world, and that pkers can and do kill you fair and square. Anyone on the forums calling people asshats is no shining example of an upright citizen.
So randomly killing people is a good thing?. Is'nt this supposed to be a roleplaying game?
Since I took my LE chip out, I've only been PK'd 3 times. Mostly cause I avoid other people 'just in case'. The fear of being Pk'd is fine, works well and adds an edge to the game. Being ganked by some guy 20 levels higher than you, who you only see as your lifeless body hits the floor is'nt fun. It isn't even 'a dark future', it just reminds you that youre playing a game rather than running around a living world.
Cyberpunk, imo, is dark and dangerous - back ally deals going wrong, gangs clashing over turf, 4am bar fights turning leathal cause some numbnuts pulled a 9mm and suddenly it's all flying lead. If Pk'ing was all like this, I'd have no problem, and that kind've roleplaying is why I took out my LE.
Sadly, a lot of people still use 'enemy factions' to justify blowing someones face off at half a mile just because they want to. Despite arguments I've heard to the contrary, this ain't roleplaying.
Kill for money, honour, revenge or survival -thats class.
IMO soulight loss should work like this.
If the person you attack is lower than you then the bigger the gap of the person you are PK'ing, the more SL loss you take. If Enemy faction then soulight loss is lowered, and highered if allied faction. Only the attacker should loose soulight.
There should also be a way for the person you pk'ed to 'drop the charges'. I am sick to death of accidental killing and suffering badly for it.
Completely way off topic, but this seems like a nice place to sow the seeds of this point.
The way I see it, Soul Light is just another faction. (i.e. COPbots shoot you just the same as a BD or CA guard would if you had that FS.).
So... um - Should all people with negetive faction sympathy drop shite? No.
Why you ask?
Because one mans criminal is another mans hero.
Do away with the red drop rules that make it impossible to be evil.
Originally posted by Marx
Completely way off topic, but this seems like a nice place to sow the seeds of this point.
The way I see it, Soul Light is just another faction. (i.e. COPbots shoot you just the same as a BD or CA guard would if you had that FS.).
So... um - Should all people with negetive faction sympathy drop shite? No.
Why you ask?
Because one mans criminal is another mans hero.
Do away with the red drop rules that make it impossible to be evil.
Remove soul light and have copbots become CA guards. Then
make the entire game revolve solely upon faction sympathies and
faction guards as the PK protectoin.
LEs split the Neocron society in two classes. If you want to keep the LE in, thats fine, but in higher levels you have to fight stronger mobs ... the only players which can help you are LE users as well. I as a PPU have removed my LE to be able to help the majority of players, but have also seen players removing their LEs to be able to get support from me. Just to mention this, as putting LE in/out is not necessarily related to PKing alone ...
I've played beta4 and there was a lot of stupid PKing going on .... GR-camping, Sewer-killing (normally done by two or three star players) and last but not least the shoot-in-the-back-while-people-fight-mobs-or-hack-bots-tactic. Things like that are still done, but highly limited to the SL loss.
Some people wouldn't know whom to kill without their F6 window. But selling this as "roleplay" is the worst excuse I've ever heard. In a real roleplaying world you wouldn't know where this person is coming from except it uses specific tattoos or clothes. Next thing is the relationships between the companies are not just "allied", "neutral" or "hostile" ... there are many shades of gray and the world changes everyday. And because some PKers don't care about factions, you wouldn't get protection from faction-based guards.
All in all a nice tradeoff between free PK and limited PK/no PK has to be found to make the game appealing to the "normal" player. Linking the change of PKing-rules to a great loss of players is just plain wrong though ... there are many reasons which have been discussed about (more or less) in other threads.
i played UO up until the Facet divide, this gimped my 2 characters that i enjoyed playing, they were both RP characters, one was a murderer (GM hiding, stealth, swords, tracking, poisons) and at one point there was 60 people hunting for me and i managed to kill half of them before they left britain bank (dropping poisoned bread around town har har)
my other character was thief (gm stealth, hide, wrestling, snoop, steal) i once punched a guy and disarmed his vanq sword then stole it from his bp before he got to hit me once.
both these chars i spent years playing, got shat upon by the changes.
i then went on to play AC, darktide, i had a level 75 swordmaster by the time i quit.
i assumed neocron would be equally as dangerous, thats why i started playing it. and from the start it was, and over the last year its gone into a downward spiral of carebearism.
When you get killed in neocron, its a mere inconvenience unless your RED.
now my current character is a droner, im not a pk, and i enjoy opwars.
however when i go on a high level hunt i have to go solo, otherwise(due to bugs) i garuntee i will go red and then im screwed.
i hate the current system.
Originally posted by lullysing
Hell, i remember a time when EPRs were being sold daily in plaza one!
Yes, EPR.
An item that could be constructed by anyone and in insane masses. When the EPR was the weapon of choice, all the items someone had were "cheap" and could be replaced easily. The worst thing that could happen to you was that your 4s EPR was replaced by a 2s one.
You can't do that now. You don't have like 5 more weapons with the same power in your app. Loose your CS and you're doomed.
If we remove all the rares from the game and go back to weapons everyone can build, I wouldn't have any trouble at all with loosing my weapon.
@Rade:
The sympathy system is completely fucked right now.
If you kill one, you'll drop sympathy in like 5 other factions.
My Tsunami char has negative ratings with almost every allied or neutral faction (like Biotech and NEXT), but positive sympathy with some of his enemies (BD and Crahn). Only 'cause he kills a CA from time to time - not even very often.
That's just plain stupid right now.
A TGC or a speedgat is a match for a CS, a blacksun is a match for
a lib judge or rolh, energy beam isnt much worse than Hl. It
would just mean that sometimes people would have to resort
than something else than the absolutely best weapon, and wed
see a little more diversity and resourcefulness, I wouldnt mind
getting my 4 slot RoLH looted and using a blacksun, pulselaser or
lib until I could get it replaced. The static characters is one of the
things that makes the game boring, using the same weapon day
in day out is boring, but Im not going to swap "just because", the
game mechanics should force people to swap weapons, and
looting does this perfectly.
just read up on how warhammer online is going to deal with pvp, maybe KK should take a leaf out of thier book :D
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
against experienced players exploiting them.
Now the game is a wasteland because of the degree pvp was restricted (excessive hunt zones) and made irrelevant to the rest of the game.
Um where do u get excessive hunt zones from there are like
3 ones to my knowledge that have any consequence to any PK'er
aggie pits in p1 and p2 and storage 8
mainly p1 and p2 and they should be left at that, there never was any balanced pvp or killing in there only high ranks killing noobs who stood no chance, and went there because they knew they would no die.
KRIMINAL99
20-10-03, 03:41
Originally posted by Shakari
Um where do u get excessive hunt zones from there are like
3 ones to my knowledge that have any consequence to any PK'er
aggie pits in p1 and p2 and storage 8
mainly p1 and p2 and they should be left at that, there never was any balanced pvp or killing in there only high ranks killing noobs who stood no chance, and went there because they knew they would no die.
Nah not those. Recently it seems every dugeon that you have to zone to enter has been changed to a hunting zone.. even the chaos caves and mc5. It was never officially anounced, and some of them don't even have the hunting zone label. But if you pk in them you lose soullight. It may have just been done by a gm or something without letting anyone know.
@ Rade - I agree 100%
stalked monkey
20-10-03, 05:06
SL loss is great, actually. You think you murder 2 people, the cops are really going to give a damn whether you want peace now or not? No. You have to avoid the cops. The copbots shoudlnt just be insane everywhere. They should be maybe 40/40 bastages that just want to do their job, get home, and eat their grease. However, if you kill them, then the big guns come in. S.T.O.R.M. bots come in (80/80, and in at least 3 at a time) and open a can of whoopass on you. Every time you die, you should lose one random item (say, genrep can only transfer so much before your body is dead?) from ANYWHERE, including rares. No safe slots. People should be given the chance to sneak past copbots, rather than them instantly smoking their arse. the "safe" zones and that stuff should also be changed as follows:
Copbot protected safe zone: LE users cant be hurt or draw weapons, non le can draw weapons, fire, but also will get shot if they do.
Anarchy zone: LE users, same as above. Copbots only fire on non-LEs when they kill someone in sight of a copbot or shoot at a copbot. (Note this is a change for LE users: They cant draw weapons in anarchy zone.)
Hunting zone: Reserved for areas near copbot zones. Like a warzone (See below) except much larger SL loss.
Warzone: Everyone can open fire on everyone. INCLUDING LE USERS. Law enforcers shouldnt work where there is no law.
Many zones would have to be changed to conform with this, for instance MB would become an anarchy zone, all wastelands would be Warzone, all wasteland hunting areas are Warzones. In a warzone, you would lose VERY LITTLE soullight, cause well... the copbots cant see you, can they? MB, TH, and TG guards should act as copbots to all non-hostile factions, otherwise they act as normal. Copbots should be "neutral" to all except TG, cause they are terrorists.
SL loss is great
It really isn't.
Great, I undertand you're thrilled with the fact that copbots shoot murderers - but the drop rules for red people are sincerely ghey. Its bad enough they have to avoid copbots, but then they also have to avoid everyone who wants to go and kill them to get everything they have on their person.
Like I've said previously, one mans criminal is another mans hero.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Pking is a legitimate way to play any game, especially one like Neocron- and has nothing to do with "abuse".
Your ideas about pkers are merely projections to protect yourself from the reality that you are not the best game player in the entire world, and that pkers can and do kill you fair and square. Anyone on the forums calling people asshats is no shining example of an upright citizen.
Amen.
Another thing these carebear morons fail to realize is that there's fuck all for "role playing" content in this game and most others for that matter. Like the only quests/events that are even in the game are just to get rares/PA.
The game was fine before, if you didn't want pvp, put your LE in, simple enough solution. If people can't handle it, then fuck off is what I'd tell them, I wouldn't want them playing my game anyways.
Seriously there's plenty of other games out there that focus on RPing, and a miniscule amount that have decent pvp, I wonder if I'll ever find a game that doesn't eventually get ruined by carebears.
Its nice to see a 'flip side' thread for a change although I suspect that the 2 'camps' will never truely appreciate the view of the other (although Kriminal and I seemed to find some middle ground)
When I took my LE out to form a clan I only ever got killed by much higher runners (either going to PP or on Aggy cellars) I stopped enjoying the game (because dying was a foregone conclusion) and played less and less, my friends all quit (same reason) so I dropped the clan and put my LE back in and now I'm enjoying the game again because I'm not constantly scared of getting my ass handed to me by someone who I have no defence against.
If PvP was somehow locked down to runners of a similar level (in the same way as the Epics require you to kill someone of a similar level), or that LE players could be in/form clans I wouldnt have an issue and I'd just keep my LE chip in (although I know the head slot would bite me at some point).
If these steps are still too much than I suppose that pushing TG out of NC would go along way to curbing the problem (city runners tend to have a much bigger time with a PK playstyle than TG runners) - I know this was promised with the arrival of DoY but thats not here and I personally think this change should have gone in regardless ages ago (I know the TG runners will bitch that they would need DoY for somewhere to go)
The core problem is that, yes NC is safe, but theres very little in NC to do as runner with his LE out - you have to go somewhere where PvP could happen in order to do anything (since no one RPs) and the minute you do that you open yourself up to a bored capped runner with an itchy trigger finger.
And the prevailing attitude of red=dead is one of the biggest problems (both in terms of PK and RP)
Originally posted by Twitch
Amen.
Another thing these carebear morons fail to realize is that there's fuck all for "role playing" content in this game and most others for that matter. Like the only quests/events that are even in the game are just to get rares/PA.
The game was fine before, if you didn't want pvp, put your LE in, simple enough solution. If people can't handle it, then fuck off is what I'd tell them, I wouldn't want them playing my game anyways.
Seriously there's plenty of other games out there that focus on RPing, and a miniscule amount that have decent pvp, I wonder if I'll ever find a game that doesn't eventually get ruined by carebears.
I get really tired of posts like this - it shows that you really havent considered that this game might not be designed to cater solely to your play style and that youre the one that ought to be in another game (Im not suggesting you are, just that you havent considered it)
Every one of your points could be legitimately turned round and suggested back to yourself - please dont over estimate the importance your own opinion
Originally posted by Jaggeh
just read up on how warhammer online is going to deal with pvp, maybe KK should take a leaf out of thier book :D
Unfortunately I predict that everyone (read: all the PvP players) will become assasins to get around the restrictions on what classes can angage in PvP
Personally I hope the current restrictions dont make it out of beta
Richard Slade
20-10-03, 09:54
Originally posted by stalked monkey
SL loss is great, actually. You think you murder 2 people, the cops are really going to give a damn whether you want peace now or not? No. You have to avoid the cops. The copbots shoudlnt just be insane everywhere. They should be maybe 40/40 bastages that just want to do their job, get home, and eat their grease. However, if you kill them, then the big guns come in. S.T.O.R.M. bots come in (80/80, and in at least 3 at a time) and open a can of whoopass on you. Every time you die, you should lose one random item (say, genrep can only transfer so much before your body is dead?) from ANYWHERE, including rares. No safe slots. People should be given the chance to sneak past copbots, rather than them instantly smoking their arse. the "safe" zones and that stuff should also be changed as follows:
Copbot protected safe zone: LE users cant be hurt or draw weapons, non le can draw weapons, fire, but also will get shot if they do.
Anarchy zone: LE users, same as above. Copbots only fire on non-LEs when they kill someone in sight of a copbot or shoot at a copbot. (Note this is a change for LE users: They cant draw weapons in anarchy zone.)
Hunting zone: Reserved for areas near copbot zones. Like a warzone (See below) except much larger SL loss.
Warzone: Everyone can open fire on everyone. INCLUDING LE USERS. Law enforcers shouldnt work where there is no law.
Many zones would have to be changed to conform with this, for instance MB would become an anarchy zone, all wastelands would be Warzone, all wasteland hunting areas are Warzones. In a warzone, you would lose VERY LITTLE soullight, cause well... the copbots cant see you, can they? MB, TH, and TG guards should act as copbots to all non-hostile factions, otherwise they act as normal. Copbots should be "neutral" to all except TG, cause they are terrorists.
I like those ideas
ALOT
And yes it's a DAMN good way to make it
Makes the virtual world more... Well, real.
It's a damn good thing.
Although the addon gotta be that non-LE's and LE's can work together
Buff each other and so on.
Well it doesn't really matter if the warzones are as they are and
LE doesn't work there
But it also means u shouldn't have to be forced to sacrifice anything
since this solution would just be a matter of taste
And YES copbots shouldn't be so hard
But the S.T.O.R.M's are to be REALLY pissed if u mess with the cops
Good idea all in all! Three thumbs up!
If gettting ganked bugs people so much, Either put the LE in or Find a new place to hunt.
Even worse when people go CRP etc and wonder why they get ganked.
:rolleyes:
KRIMINAL99
20-10-03, 15:31
Originally posted by 5150
When I took my LE out to form a clan I only ever got killed by much higher runners (either going to PP or on Aggy cellars) I stopped enjoying the game (because dying was a foregone conclusion) and played less and less, my friends all quit (same reason) so I dropped the clan and put my LE back in and now I'm enjoying the game again because I'm not constantly scared of getting my ass handed to me by someone who I have no defence against.
If PvP was somehow locked down to runners of a similar level (in the same way as the Epics require you to kill someone of a similar level), or that LE players could be in/form clans I wouldnt have an issue and I'd just keep my LE chip in (although I know the head slot would bite me at some point).
If these steps are still too much than I suppose that pushing TG out of NC would go along way to curbing the problem (city runners tend to have a much bigger time with a PK playstyle than TG runners) - I know this was promised with the arrival of DoY but thats not here and I personally think this change should have gone in regardless ages ago (I know the TG runners will bitch that they would need DoY for somewhere to go)
The core problem is that, yes NC is safe, but theres very little in NC to do as runner with his LE out - you have to go somewhere where PvP could happen in order to do anything (since no one RPs) and the minute you do that you open yourself up to a bored capped runner with an itchy trigger finger.
And the prevailing attitude of red=dead is one of the biggest problems (both in terms of PK and RP)
I don't know what middle ground you are talking about, nor does anyone know what you mean when you say "flip side" thread. 90% of the remaining community wants pvp tied back into your characters life somehow like unlocking quickbelts again, and frankly your about the only person who says otherwise who can even spell his name at the time. (Most disagreers are just newbies who took out their LE too soon and are on the forum about the results)
I notice how "your friends" quit but your still around. Name of every friend who quit specifically because of pvp please. Else stop lying. Once you do everything in the game finding ways to level up high enough to compete with pkers without getting killed by them too much in the mean time is fun.
BTW you can kill people in Neocron way above your level. I used to do it all the time. The thing is, whoever attacks first has much more of a chance of winning. (Such is the nature of a PVP game) And if you are a REAL lowbie without a LE, (like less than 0/20) Then your not going to get attacked AS much.
Your last statement is the perfect example of what I many people say about antiPkers. You say there is nothing to do with LE in so you want to take it out. But the only difference is you get to participate in pvp with it out. So your saying you WANT to pvp. But you DON'T want to die in pvp. So why don't you just ask for god mode specifically given to just you as opposed to complaining about pvp? That thing about capped runners is usually made up, IE anyone who kills me was much higher, capped, was haxxing whatever. But lets just assume in your case it wasnt. Yeah capped players have an advantage. The more you level the less advantage they have. When you are capped too they don't have an advantage anymore. And its not a HUGE advantage- you can still kill them with like the highest tl non rare - especially if you get the drop on them as opposed to vice versa.
Oh and by the way... This game WAS designed specifically to cater to our play style. People who can't function well in a competive enviorment had no business being here to begin with but they came anyways. Some of them became GM's that further encouraged pking complaints by not encouraging LE use and adaption to the game rather than "sympathyzing" with them and projecting about what the pker must have been irl or whatever.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Your last statement is the perfect example of what I many people say about antiPkers. You say there is nothing to do with LE in so you want to take it out. But the only difference is you get to participate in pvp with it out. So your saying you WANT to pvp. But you DON'T want to die in pvp. So why don't you just ask for god mode specifically given to just you as opposed to complaining about pvp? That thing about capped runners is usually made up, IE anyone who kills me was much higher, capped, was haxxing whatever. But lets just assume in your case it wasnt. Yeah capped players have an advantage. The more you level the less advantage they have. When you are capped too they don't have an advantage anymore. And its not a HUGE advantage- you can still kill them with like the highest tl non rare - especially if you get the drop on them as opposed to vice versa.
Oh and by the way... This game WAS designed specifically to cater to our play style. People who can't function well in a competive enviorment had no business being here to begin with but they came anyways. Some of them became GM's that further encouraged pking complaints by not encouraging LE use and adaption to the game rather than "sympathyzing" with them and projecting about what the pker must have been irl or whatever.
I'll skip the first lot of your post because its subjective, opinion based and frankly even if I provided the info you ask for you'd find some reason to throw it out because it messes with the mental picture you have of where NC is at and why (which was the middle ground I _thought_ we had reached - guess I was mistaken or you are now just playing to the home crowd)
Actually my last statement was to the effect of 'make all the city hunting grounds non-PvP zones' but I guess you didnt/couldnt/wouldnt read it like that - its not that there isnt anything to do, there isnt anything to do _without_ the risk of some bored capped player coming down and tearing you a new one. Let me ask you this..... if I opt out of PvP and outpost conflict why should I not be able to join a clan or lose a head slot? Why are those 2 things and PvP mutually exclusive
If you can find me any official statement or evidence that this (NC) is a PvP game than I'll conceed that point - seriously (but I'll refer you back to our previous discussion about why KK made the changes to PvP - if NC is _supposed_ to be a PvP game they wouldnt have bothered)
Originally Posted Martin J. Schwiezer
I've seen a couple of complaints about random PKing. What I don't understand is why don't the people who complain use the ingame mechanics to go against that? Why don't vet players (e.g. like Spookie, a highly valued NC long timer who PMed me that he also has concerns about random PKers in Neocron) initiate a clan to protect newbies? PvP _is_ a base element of the game. That also means that we want to give more freedom to the players and give _you_ the tools to go against random PKers. Hey, it's a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world, so why don't you realize that there are some amok weirdos going postal?
Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42692
'base element' != PvP based game
sorry, nice find though
-edit-
It could equally be argued that trudging through the wastelands is a base element of the game - which would put all the current GR arguments out the window.
There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.
No, I'm pointing primarily to this.
You fuckers won because victims whine louder than the agressor.
Originally posted by 5150
'base element' != PvP based game
So base means a different thing when it's one one side of the definition? PvP is a base element, i.e. key part of the game, i.e. a core aim, i.e. a central point, i.e. a primary feature, i.e. a major part of the game.
And I just LOVE how a few people gank you and suddenly anyone who killed anyone else is an RPKer and automatically cannot roleplay.
:rolleyes:
onwzerfied.
Nice one Scikar.
Originally posted by Marx
No, I'm pointing primarily to this.
You fuckers won because victims whine louder than the agressor.
See the key word here is 'victim'. More often than not PvP-types go attacking those who arent interested in fighting you (like they would be at an outpost war) now if your are going to fuck up my evenings play be sending me back to the GR and taking my stuff (old PvP rules) and generally pissing me off by having wasted my play time then yeah damn right I'm going to bitch about it (and you would too)
Its not different than if you paid me to come around to your house and kick the crap out of you and steal your wallet - it cost you money and it stopped you going out for a pizza
Now I'll grant you that there is a difference between those that bitch about PvP because of balance and those that bitch about PvP because the system is essentially unregulated
and here we have our problem (calling me a fucker wont help, especially since taken litterally its actually a compliment)
Originally posted by Scikar
So base means a different thing when it's one one side of the definition? PvP is a base element, i.e. key part of the game, i.e. a core aim, i.e. a central point, i.e. a primary feature, i.e. a major part of the game.
And I just LOVE how a few people gank you and suddenly anyone who killed anyone else is an RPKer and automatically cannot roleplay.
:rolleyes:
Yeah they are different - PvP is 'the point' of say Planetside, PvP is not 'the point' of NC, why fill the world up with other, trivial distracting crap then?
When I finally see some RP (and not just red=dead justification) then I'll take it back - deal?
See the key word here is 'victim'. More often than not PvP-types go attacking those who arent interested in fighting you (like they would be at an outpost war) now if your are going to fuck up my evenings play be sending me back to the GR and taking my stuff (old PvP rules) and generally pissing me off by having wasted my play time then yeah damn right I'm going to bitch about it (and you would too)
Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones
:rolleyes:
edit-
Yeah they are different - PvP is 'the point' of say Planetside, PvP is not 'the point' of NC, why fill the world up with other, trivial distracting crap then?
When I finally see some RP (and not just red=dead justification) then I'll take it back - deal?
Well, seeing as the world revolves around guns... and guns kill people... Your point is moot.
And I have to quote Scikar here because I agree greatly with him on this point.
Originally posted by Scikar
In my eyes if you are green/yellow then I have to justify killing you. If you are red then you have to justify me letting you live
Let me try another way (why do I bother) go read NeMa, go read the first live run report - I dont see any evidence of random killing in either. Sure there might be PvP but those conflicts are for very specific reasons (i.e. the groups have opposing goals) there no instance of 'hey look there a guy over there in aggy cellars we can kill'
Which suggest to me that KK are still trying hard to break this PvP-only image the game has
I've said it before and I'll say it again - make every character have one life, and the killer gets everything on the body and while we're at it lets automatically have the copbots execute any character thats killed another player who then sets foot in NC
is that risk vs reward enough for you yet?
Then we'll see how quickly you pull the trigger when you stand to lose months of work if you die.
I have to take the example this extreme because you guys dont seem to have any appreciation for how big and impact getting PKed is for some players (for whatever reason)
Thats why PvP changes were made, thats why there was no influx of new players, thats why you wont ever see Neptune
So... Enemies are supposed to walk on by with a friendly nod.
So I guess the Wehrmacht and Soviet Forces just passed eachother by in Stalingrad with a "How dya' do?"
I don't understand why people have to justify killing you when you're in an enemy faction - because the honest truth is, if the situation was reversed you might be just as prone to take the action he or she will.
Then we'll see how quickly you pull the trigger when you stand to lose months of work if you die
Notice the decreased drop rate came with the safe slot?
Why? Because people didn't need to replace their weapons as much.
:rolleyes:
I honestly believe that 90% of player killings are justified. A CA at CRP, which is right outside TG canyon, has no reason to complain when he gets killed, and does not even deserve an explanation why he was killed, since it should be obvious. If he's just a newbie then personally I'd tell him to leave rather than kill him straight off, but for people with high level chars who think they have some god given right to cap out at CRP I don't see why I have to bother saying anything.
The other 10% is unjustified killing, such as sewer and aggie cellar ganking. That's just plain wrong, which is why I agree with the hunting zones in those areas.
Now are you going to seriously tell me that it's fair to ruin PvP purely because a few people pick on lowbies in aggie cellars? Do whatever you want to make PKing in areas like that have extremely harsh penalties, but it's no reason to have hunting zones at CRP, or have QBs for everyone in all areas.
And PvP is the point of NC - what are all those OPs for? Why have warzones? Why does SL exist in the first place if the only thing affecting it is PvP? Why is it possible to target other players?
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 18:37
You're Red, you're dead. Why? Because Neocron is in the middle of a Civil WAR.
'Nuff said.
Originally posted by Marx
So... Enemies are supposed to walk on by with a friendly nod.
So I guess the Wehrmacht and Soviet Forces just passed eachother by in Stalingrad with a "How dya' do?"
I don't understand why people have to justify killing you when you're in an enemy faction - because the honest truth is, if the situation was reversed you might be just as prone to take the action he or she will.
Notice the decreased drop rate came with the safe slot?
Why? Because people didn't need to replace their weapon as much.
:rolleyes:
So we never had a cold war then? All the fighting just somehow managed to slip everyone by?.........
So how do TG garner support for their cause?..... by informing people of Rezas previous treachary to TG? By informing people exactly what the copbots are made of? no by killing all the people they are supposed to be trying to 'save' from Reza (having previously 'saved' them from the Monks). Well that sold me, where do I sign up?
Christ even NeMa has picked up on this one
So we never had a cold war then? All the fighting just somehow managed to slip everyone by?.........
The coldwar was fought with fear, productivity and intelligence services.
The person with the most nukes - and most continuity sites won.
That on top of the most stable economy (comparitively)
:rolleyes:
So how do TG garner support for their cause?..... by informing people of Rezas previous treachary to TG? By informing people exactly what the copbots are made of? no by killing all the people they are supposed to be trying to 'save' from Reza (having previously 'saved' them from the Monks). Well that sold me, where do I sign up?
TG folk get support for their cause by liberating the people. MC5 is the evidence that the City Admin brainwashes its people - the only way to deal is to destroy the City Admins ability to economically cope (i.e. OP wars) or to take it out directly against CA officials - in the hope that it will slow down CA's slow trudge towards total control (i.e. PK)
:)
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 18:45
Maybe you missed that whole thing about the cold war...Russian pilots flying MiGs in Korea, Russia Supplying the Vietnamese and rebels in Africa, Communist sponsored revolutions, Cuban Missile Crisis, Afghanistan, Proxy Wars fought in the middle East with Russia supplying Arabs and US Supplying the Israeli's, the Russian grabs for US intel assets in Iran after the revolution.
Yup 5150, you're right. We just sat opposite each other from the Iron Curtain and sent mean looks and evil thoughts to the other. Nope, no violence whatsoever in a "Cold War' (which, btw, means there was no all out war, just smaller armed conflicts).
It's called War. Half of it is Propaganda, the other half is killing. Guess what the Russians did to those who didn't believe their propaganda? They KILLED THEM! WOWZERS! GOGOGADGET1337ness!!!oneone.
:rolleyes:
why do you find it hard to accept their is people in this game who kill whoevere they want when they want and not giving to shits about faction?
you ever heard of jack the ripper for instance and other serial killers?
if they excist in the real world then why not in a game that is tryign to reflect a cybpunk earth in a dodgy world more then modern time now
but there is no serial killers in neocron anymore, so i would not class as cyberpunk apocalyptic a dangerous world
ignorance is bliss?
Originally posted by Scikar
I honestly believe that 90% of player killings are justified. A CA at CRP, which is right outside TG canyon, has no reason to complain when he gets killed, and does not even deserve an explanation why he was killed, since it should be obvious. If he's just a newbie then personally I'd tell him to leave rather than kill him straight off, but for people with high level chars who think they have some god given right to cap out at CRP I don't see why I have to bother saying anything.
The other 10% is unjustified killing, such as sewer and aggie cellar ganking. That's just plain wrong, which is why I agree with the hunting zones in those areas.
Now are you going to seriously tell me that it's fair to ruin PvP purely because a few people pick on lowbies in aggie cellars? Do whatever you want to make PKing in areas like that have extremely harsh penalties, but it's no reason to have hunting zones at CRP, or have QBs for everyone in all areas.
And PvP is the point of NC - what are all those OPs for? Why have warzones? Why does SL exist in the first place if the only thing affecting it is PvP? Why is it possible to target other players?
Ok we are starting to look at the points sensibly. The only thing I would question is that the % you mention are based on your own point of view (and the same could be said for any I offered) and as such you may not be aware of the same problems that I am (since I have LE in I dont bother going to Outposts but I do get to watch alot of ganking in Aggy)
Its interesting that a city runner at TG should expect death, he shouldnt be here - but TG doesnt seem to have the same 'RP compunction' when it comes to visiting NC. Now I know I'm going to get all the readeskill bullshit as a reply to this but hey, if you wanna RP, then the first thing you have to accept is that you are the outcast and the outcast doesnt get access to the 'civilised world' (I know this is suppsed to change when DoY arrives, but where is DoY......)
I'm not actually trying to nerf PvP, I'm trying to make the LE and easier option to swallow (i.e. allowed clans and head slot) and I'm trying to make PvP a fairer prospect for those of us who dont have time to replace something that may have taken weeks to obtain (and this need not be a rare) such as limit PvP to players of a similar rank (such as the PvP kills in the Epic runs)
Originally posted by Style
why do you find it hard to accept their is people in this game who kill whoevere they want when they want and not giving to shits about faction?
you ever heard of jack the ripper for instance and other serial killers?
if they excist in the real world then why not in a game that is tryign to reflect a cybpunk earth in a dodgy world more then modern time now
but there is no serial killers in neocron anymore, so i would not class as cyberpunk apocalyptic a dangerous world
ignorance is bliss?
I find it hard to accept there are so many of them :-) and they can get away with it so easily (yeah officer his name was Style and hes a TG runner right here in the city, what do you mean there nothing you can do about it!!!!!)
and I find it hard to accept that I am not safe within the inner city limits (such as aggy cellars) as the NCPD would have me believe
Originally posted by 5150
So we never had a cold war then? All the fighting just somehow managed to slip everyone by?.........
So how do TG garner support for their cause?..... by informing people of Rezas previous treachary to TG? By informing people exactly what the copbots are made of? no by killing all the people they are supposed to be trying to 'save' from Reza (having previously 'saved' them from the Monks). Well that sold me, where do I sign up?
Christ even NeMa has picked up on this one
Just think for a second. Let's take Al Qaeda as an example. It's a bad example, because they're fighting against democracy rather than for it, and technically they are terrorists rather than freedom fighters, but they'll do. When American soldiers approach an Al Qaeda base, do they
a) Shoot the Americans before they shoot them,
or
b) All pull out megaphones and put on name tags and rush out to greet the Americans and get all friendly with them and try to persuade them to join?
There is a time and a place for propaganda and recruitment drive. You don't recruit people by forcing soldiers who work for your enemy to join you. You kill them, and you recruit from people who are already sympathetic to your cause. What do you think the response is when I try to persuade a Tangent to join TG? You guessed it, he stalls me for time and pretends to be interested while his clan come along to kill me.
Not to mention of course, if all we forced people to move from TT, CA, BT, CM, and other city factions and join TG, wouldn't thos who were left in the city complain that TG were too powerful?
Originally posted by Marx
TG folk get support for their cause by liberating the people. MC5 is the evidence that the City Admin brainwashes its people - the only way to deal is to destroy the City Admins ability to economically cope (i.e. OP wars) or to take it out directly against CA officials - in the hope that it will slow down CA's slow trudge towards total control (i.e. PK):)
So start as TG - what a delightfully intelligent and 'open to RP' reply
1st of all, i am not tg. i are black dragon
2nd, there is not many serial killers in this game, yet the average war veteran who fights in many wars, just like a soldier who fights for usa or uk?
but in the future where guns are not ilegal, and you can get awa with crime of killing your enemy, so whats the big poblem
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 18:51
Originally posted by 5150
I'm not actually trying to nerf PvP, I'm trying to make the LE and easier option to swallow (i.e. allowed clans and head slot) and I'm trying to make PvP a fairer prospect for those of us who dont have time to replace something that may have taken weeks to obtain (and this need not be a rare) such as limit PvP to players of a similar rank (such as the PvP kills in the Epic runs)
Sounds to me like you are trying to nerf not only PvP in this game, but destroy the entire atmosphere. Want to know what made Neocron so special for people? The sense of danger. Knowing that at any moment you could die if you slipped up. The most active I ever saw MB on Pluto was when it was getting constantly raided. Hell, even the lowbies charged into battle if only to give the higher ups more time to kill the enemy.
Now, MB is a ghost town.
As far as TG's going into NC...give us an equal place of safety to tradeskill and we will, also, allow us to raid the City and you won't see a TG there.
As far as LE players...Guess what? You don't take the risks other players do therefore you don't deserve to have clans, and you do deserve to lose a brainslot. Thats the price you pay for invulnerability. Get used to it.
I'm trying to make the LE and easier option to swallow (i.e. allowed clans and head slot)
Ok, lets look at this reasonably.
Why do LE users need an extra headslot? They are protected while they can level in peace. Other persons without it do not have that grace, and can be "ONOZ PKAD!!" while leveling, cutting their progression short. It is neccesary for those without LE's to use as many imps as possible so as they can use a good weapon to fight back against those that attack them before they really should...
Hell, I'm tired of tidying this up.
People without LE's need their brainslots for their ideal PvP setup.
LE users don't.
LE Clans... hell - I fought for them earlier on, but it just grants the wearer to be amazingly rude without fear of death.
You can't bring in the TG are safe in the city argument. Ask around enough and you'll find the vast majority of TG support being kicked out of the city by CopBots. Personally I used to never ever go to Plaza, until all the tradeskillers stopped working in TG to work for the ones who did. Wherever possible I go to a clan mate and we work at an OP, or in clan apt. But I don't go to plaza by choice.
And would you ever join TG 5150? Or would you rather die?
i'm a player who has my LE in at all times and i wouldnt want it removed. i dont want to participate in PvP but i recognise that its a core element of the game.
The fact that the LE is here is fine with me but there have been significant nerf's to the PvP aspect. even i'm not blind to that. so the issue here it seems to me is how to un-nerf the PvP play without affecting people like me who dont ever want to PvP.
Firstly, in order to keep new players they need to be protected (because self-regulation isnt working) so maybe a no pvp until level 15 or 20 regardless of whether you got an LE or not is an option.
Second, LE users get a lot of abuse on the forum (and in game) because of the PKers who abuse the LE. One idea i had was that in order to put in a LE you had to do say 10 missions since your last PK, that way you have to be in public where others can get revenge attacks on you for some time.
Third, the penalties for PKing are too harsh (even i can see that) so maybe its limited to losing SL equivalent to the level difference between you and the other player, rather than an imediate -16 for the first kill.
there are other possible ideas i've heard such as restrictions on level so that you can only attack someone +/- 10 levels to yours (not combat rank cos that can vary too much, and change without you noticing). or what about only SL loss if you initiated the attack, so someone DEFENDING themselves cant lose SL. You could remove the quickbelt drop and just drop 1 item (regardless of whether you are red sl or not) on the floor if you are PK'd but only if he did more damage than the mob you were busy fighting when he killed you.
any of these ideas might improve PvP, i dont know cos i dont only you can judge. but the last thing i want is to quit this game because i dont have the LE option and its just frustrating playing it (i get enough of that in work).
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Sounds to me like you are trying to nerf not only PvP in this game, but destroy the entire atmosphere. Want to know what made Neocron so special for people? The sense of danger. Knowing that at any moment you could die if you slipped up. The most active I ever saw MB on Pluto was when it was getting constantly raided. Hell, even the lowbies charged into battle if only to give the higher ups more time to kill the enemy.
Now, MB is a ghost town.
As far as TG's going into NC...give us an equal place of safety to tradeskill and we will, also, allow us to raid the City and you won't see a TG there.
As far as LE players...Guess what? You don't take the risks other players do therefore you don't deserve to have clans, and you do deserve to lose a brainslot. Thats the price you pay for invulnerability. Get used to it.
As a counter point I basically stopped playing when my LE was out (so I could for a clan with my friends, but once they left I put my LE back in) I just couldnt stand the fact that everywhere I went I basically had to expect some bored capped guy to blow me away and ruin whatever I was trying to do (because it wasnt PvP)
In a similar responce to your last paragraph - why should TG have a place of safety (personally I thought the canyon was safe enough) while I chose not to get involved in PvP, TG players chose to be the 'bad guys' why shouldnt that also have a downside - your eager to penalise me but dont seem to apply the same sence of balance to yourself
While I accept that you would expect some kind of disadvantage keeping the LE in the head slot and non-clan just dont make sence. The headslot prevents you from fully realising PvM (which in leiu of PvP is the only combat you have left so the only reason you'd need head implants) and a clan is useful for so much more than PvP. Its the only real unit for player organisation in the game - preventing LE players from joining/forming one curbs alot of social/RP opportunities from them.
To shatter your 'PvP setup' statement, my monk setup (its a hybrid so as you can see PvP is not the goal) needs all 4 slots
I'll offer another example for one of my previous points....
A while back in Neocronical a reporter faked their death (after seeing MC5 IIRC) to join TG. That is and would be impossible for a player under the games current circumstance. Most players just dont have the capacity to see belond the trigger and its exaqctly this kind of situation where 'enemies' would not blow each other away at first glance. In fact the whole thing is only possible with the 'story' TG (as opposed to the game TG)
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 20:35
You shattered my setup statement?o_O
Let me reiterate exactly what I said concerning the LE Chip: Those players who choose to wear it do not take the risks that other players without the LE do. Therefore, they have not earned the privelege of having clans. Losing one brain slot is a small price to pay for invulnerability.
Secondly, if you're so paranoid about being killed, make friends. I have been PK'd outside of an OpFight exactly 5 times since US Retail. During that time I played all classes as either a TG, CM, or FA.
5 times in...almost a year. 3 of the Chars were solo (saturn and uranus) 1 was on Pluto whom I still play to this day. If you are getting constantly killed, its more likely you are doing something to make yourself a target. Either that, or somehow I have aquired a magic "Anti-PK" spray.
NOT.
I play smart and don't put myself into positions where my survival isn't dependant on the goodwill of other human beings.
So to recap in the simplest way possible: LE Chip= Copout. That means you don't get all the goodies those of us with balls get.
Little Risk, Little Reward. Big Risk, Big Reward.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
You shattered my setup statement?o_O
Let me reiterate exactly what I said concerning the LE Chip: Those players who choose to wear it do not take the risks that other players without the LE do. Therefore, they have not earned the privelege of having clans. Losing one brain slot is a small price to pay for invulnerability.
Secondly, if you're so paranoid about being killed, make friends. I have been PK'd outside of an OpFight exactly 5 times since US Retail. During that time I played all classes as either a TG, CM, or FA.
5 times in...almost a year. 3 of the Chars were solo (saturn and uranus) 1 was on Pluto whom I still play to this day. If you are getting constantly killed, its more likely you are doing something to make yourself a target. Either that, or somehow I have aquired a magic "Anti-PK" spray.
NOT.
I play smart and don't put myself into positions where my survival isn't dependant on the goodwill of other human beings.
So to recap in the simplest way possible: LE Chip= Copout. That means you don't get all the goodies those of us with balls get.
Little Risk, Little Reward. Big Risk, Big Reward.
So I have to make friends yet not be dependant on the goodwill of other for my survival
Make your mind up please
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 20:43
I thought it was rather straightforward.
Just because I'm friends with people does not mean I'm dependent on their good will for my continued survival. Maybe thats whats wrong with you. You have no survival skills and thus rely on a crutch (LE) to survive when otherwise your own stupidity or lack of skill would have driven you from the game long ago had things taken their natural course.
Yet once again evolution is foiled to the greater detriment of the population.:rolleyes:
If you don't like PvP, don't want to wear your LE, and don't have an interest in taking responsibility for your own actions I suggest you find another game.
Remove the LE now, and later on we'll work on getting warning labels removed off RL items so that the stupid will go back to killing themselves.
Haha, now I remembered why I luv you BP :D
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 20:52
And I thought it was because I'm fuzzy with a clover on my tummy...Damn!
Originally posted by BlackPrince
I thought it was rather straightforward.
Just because I'm friends with people does not mean I'm dependent on their good will for my continued survival. Maybe thats whats wrong with you. You have no survival skills and thus rely on a crutch (LE) to survive when otherwise your own stupidity or lack of skill would have driven you from the game long ago had things taken their natural course.
Yet once again evolution is foiled to the greater detriment of the population.:rolleyes:
If you don't like PvP, don't want to wear your LE, and don't have an interest in taking responsibility for your own actions I suggest you find another game.
Remove the LE now, and later on we'll work on getting warning labels removed off RL items so that the stupid will go back to killing themselves.
Well that shows how much you know. My _personal_ PvP skills are fine thank you very much. I am no stranger to PvP FPS game but you see the thing with them is they are _fair_
What I have an issue with is some that someone with nothing better to do can spend his entire waking hours playing NC, levelling up, getting rares and uber stuff and then come and ruin what little time I have to play and what has taken me ages (by comparison) to acomplish when there is absoutely _zero_ chance of getting away or fighting back. Skill doesnt come into it because the system has no controls, PvP is either on or off. Since no one can be bothered (it seems) to fight over outposts anymore there are lots of bored high ranking player around looking for someone, anyone to kill just to have something to do.
No amount of friends will change this indisputable fact, in fact being in an established clan is likely to drag you into even more PvP
Is that clear enough for you now?
BlackPrince
20-10-03, 21:02
/Rant on
Let me spell this out for you: Life aint fair kid. Its about SURVIVAL. If you find yourself in a situation that you can't handle, 99% of the time its because YOU screwed up. Not because the other guy is a big meanie, not because the PvP system isn't 'fair', it's because somewhere along the way YOU made an error in judgement that left you vulnerable.
That judgement is what seperates the weak, the stupid, and cowardly from those who actually take a proactive form of self defense and THINK about what they are doing and how it will effect them.
No system in life is fair. In some ways Neocron is more fair because YOU can at least choose to even up the playing field somewhat by playing whatever the current 'uber' class is. Then theres a slight margin for player skill left.
It sounds to me like you want a 1st person mob hunting game with IRC interface. This is a Multiplayer Game. Just because you got ganked in CRP because you happen to be CA doesn't mean these guys are RPKers, it means you were stupid**.
If you can't be troubled to take care of yourself, why the fuck should KK babysit you? Waaah he killed me. When I was a droner and some schmuck in smurf armor killed me, you know what I did?
I tracked his sorry ass down and nailed him with KK200's till he died. That took a long time and there was jackshit he could do about it. When he went back to get his belt, I had more waiting for him.
But you say "I dont wanna lose rares Waaah" So what if you die. It's a bloody game. Everything can be gotten back fairly easily even for the Solo player if he has half a brain. If you find it that unpalatable keep your LE in and your mouth shut because I for one am sick of your constant sniveling.
/Rant off.
**note this is just a hypothetical situation with a generic form of 'you' and is not specifically meaning You, 5150.
So to sum up I should go and play another game then.....
/me begins to understand why NC is so underpopulated
/me begins to understand why NC is so underpopulated
No, NC is underpopulated because CDV is eurocentric, while the MMO playerbase is not - hardly any effort was made for advertising in North America and Asia - which just so happen to be the two largest chunks of MMO player populace.
Also - most players left after Neocron went carebear; get your facts straight.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Marx
No, NC is underpopulated because CDV is eurocentric, while the MMO playerbase is not - hardly any effort was made for advertising in North America and Asia - which just so happen to be the two largest chunks of MMO player populace.
Also - most players left after Neocron went carebear; get your facts straight.
:rolleyes:
In your opinion, but your talking about launch anyway, your forgetting the more recent free download through gamespy - hardly lacking in public exposure (Eve is eurocentric and that was hardly lacking in players at launch).
Beside which 2000 (approx) players (being generous) is pretty poor for just Europe anyway and I saw more copies of NC for sale when I went on holiday to the US 2 weeks ago than I've ever seen in the UK.
Basically PvP player are a niche market (as are RPers I will admit) which is why Planetside is stuck at about 50k players while SWG is up in the 300k mark.
Casual player are where subscriber numbers are at and as you have justly proved, NC and the attitude of its remaining playerbase is hardly 'casual friendly'
Regardless of whether 2000 is good or not, there were more people playing before the PvP nerfs. PvP maybe a niche market, well that just means Neocron is a niche game. KK are doing better than ever finance-wise according to MJS, so any comparison with SW:G etc is moot. This game was never intended to compete with EverQuest, UO, and SW:G etc, it was made to be a hardcore, cyberpunk game, and until those PvP nerfs, it succeeded. After the PvP nerfs some good things happened - more OP wars, more people fighting instead of putting weapon in inventory, but that was because of the good aspects of the QB changes. The bad aspects are the ones that scared lots of people away, and there are no aspects, and never will be any, to attract the average UO or EverQuest player. So there's no point comparing to them, or trying to accomodate those players, because it won't work unless NC becomes an EQ or UO clone.
In your opinion, but your talking about launch anyway, your forgetting the more recent free download through gamespy - hardly lacking in public exposure (Eve is eurocentric and that was hardly lacking in players at launch).
Gamespy is crap. Frankly it caters to the FPS community as opposed to the MMO community; hell, the main reason people use it is for patches, they can give a crap less about most of the demos.
Eve, where to begin... It had alot more exposure in magazines - and even game stores; near me, stores had Eve posters up.
As opposed to Neocron - where I haven't seen an ad in a mag, nor do I even think Neo posters are in existance.
o_O
Basically PvP player are a niche market (as are RPers I will admit) which is why Planetside is stuck at about 50k players while SWG is up in the 300k mark.
I wish people would stop comparing NC to SWG - SWG is selling on the Star Wars title, most players are people that have seen the movies, read the books, played the games, and are enthralled with the world.
Neocron does not have that advantage, nor does it have the sony powerhouse... So of course they're gonna have more players
:rolleyes:
Everquest has more players than DAoC, when DAoC is infinately cooler and more refined - why? Because Everquest is sony backed.
No MMO is pure PvP, you always have the whining bastard victims who wish things were different.
WHY DO YOU THINK TRAMMEL EXISTS IN UO?
Casual player are where subscriber numbers are at and as you have justly proved, NC and the attitude of its remaining playerbase is hardly 'casual friendly'
Um, actually we're more friendly than you're willing to admit. Upon starting in Neocron, and starting on other servers (pretending to be a complete n00b to get the full hospitality) I got more help than in any other MMO I've played... except maybe The Realm. Other games leave NPC's to guide the n00bs, Neocron does not, forcing the new player into the world, as opposed to leaving them in a hole. The players you talk to generally have tips and equipment for you - granted some people are dicks, but as in life; one must cope.
Originally posted by 5150
ruin what little time I have to play and what has taken me ages (by comparison) to acomplish when there is absoutely _zero_ chance of getting away or fighting back.
Oh please, when you get pked you have to get poked a few times, wait for SI, and worry about the whole one item you dropped in the belt that the pk wont even hack 99% of the time because to have enough in hack would gimp you, not to mention there's not a lot of time either. I'm so sure that took you AGES to get all those imps poked in and your equipment in it's quickslots right? :lol:
With the retarded rules in place, a pk with the lame SL rules against him will lose several items including the one in his safe slot.
And quit telling me that I'm ignorant for wanting the game to be pvp based as it once was before, I've been here since beta, I've seen the game go from good to shit because of whining idiots like you. There's fuck all for "RPing" content, get over it, you'll NEVER, I repeat NEVER, see a TG say "THE RULE OF REZA MUST COME TO AN END WITH HIS TYRANT WAYS, JUST AS MY PLASMA CANNON WILL END YOUR LIFE!!!"
:rolleyes:
And I'll say it again, out of all the mmorpgs out there, how many truly focus on pvp? Can you fucks just give us just ONE game to enjoy whilst SWG and the like have thousands upon thousands for "roleplayers" ???
Originally posted by Marx
Um, actually we're more friendly than you're willing to admit. Upon starting in Neocron, and starting on other servers (pretending to be a complete n00b to get the full hospitality) I got more help than in any other MMO I've played... except maybe The Realm. Other games leave NPC's to guide the n00bs, Neocron does not, forcing the new player into the world, as opposed to leaving them in a hole. The players you talk to generally have tips and equipment for you - granted some people are dicks, but as in life; one must cope.
Well I never saw any Eve advertising but hey guess we arent going to agree on this either - interestingly subscriber numbers of Eve took a dive due to rampant PKing of newbies right before CCP swung the nerf bat at the pirates real hard - the parallels between Eve and NC are there for anyone to see (but looks like we arent going to agree on that either)
Never played UO so cant relate to your comment
EQ has been around for donkeys years and it was one for the first, EQ players werent about to abandon a game they were happy with and lose all that work (and I think we can agree theres alot of work to be doing on your character in EQ) to jump ship to DAOC. Personally I hated EQs graphics so didnt stick out my first period, but interestingly I didnt stick out DAOC either because it was just another monster bashing treadmill
Its a shame you find it convienient to fall back on the SOE defence when something goes against NC - yet SWG is the first to be brought to task when it goofs up around here (or is percieved to goof up). Sure it has the Star Wars label but come on we are 4 months in, if people didnt like it they would have stopped playing by now
Just because you are newbie friendly doent not mean that everyone is - besides I'm not refering to helping out newbies of the same, allied or neutral faction - I'm not talking about not pulling the trigger when you see a newbie enemy with his LE out (and I'm also refering to your attitude towards a newbie who has the same outlook on the game as myself)
Originally posted by Twitch
Oh please, when you get pked you have to get poked a few times, wait for SI, and worry about the whole one item you dropped in the belt that the pk wont even hack 99% of the time because to have enough in hack would gimp you, not to mention there's not a lot of time either. I'm so sure that took you AGES to get all those imps poked in and your equipment in it's quickslots right? :lol:
With the retarded rules in place, a pk with the lame SL rules against him will lose several items including the one in his safe slot.
And quit telling me that I'm ignorant for wanting the game to be pvp based as it once was before, I've been here since beta, I've seen the game go from good to shit because of whining idiots like you. There's fuck all for "RPing" content, get over it, you'll NEVER, I repeat NEVER, see a TG say "THE RULE OF REZA MUST COME TO AN END WITH HIS TYRANT WAYS, JUST AS MY PLASMA CANNON WILL END YOUR LIFE!!!"
:rolleyes:
And I'll say it again, out of all the mmorpgs out there, how many truly focus on pvp? Can you fucks just give us just ONE game to enjoy whilst SWG and the like have thousands upon thousands for "roleplayers" ???
Well I've been here since beta 4 so that tells you something about how 'obviously' this game is PvP based (IMO it isnt)
You rationalise the actions after death but you show you just cant relate to it. It goes well beyond the physical mechanisms needed to put your character back they way it was. For example I could have run to TH to activate the GRs and been ganked before I get there (have to do it all again now) or worse yet MB. Just because its not an inconvienience to you doesnt mean it isnt to other player (but you will never relate to a casual gamers perpective until you are one)
Actually every MMORPG I've every played has had a community dominated by non-RPers. These may not be PvP players and just the 'we wont spoon fed content' types but every game has always had a very vocal PvP group asking for 'more reason to PvP' and 'more risk vs reward' and 'dont listen to the carebears'.
I would once again offer that if PvP is your one and only bag than an FPS or planetside is better suited to you needs (but I know you wont go there because you cant power level and be more uber than everyone else and put the smackdown on people - in short you hate fair PvP) because a MMORPG is cross-playstyle and like it or not you will always be sharing the game with others who dont want the hassle of PvP on a constant basis, and as long as they make up a significant portion of the subscriber base the devs will have to consider their viewpoint or risk losing customers
Honestly if there were no evidence that NC _wasnt_ an RPG I'd piss off right now, but read NeMa, read Neocronical that is the world that the game _should_ be. Your example about what we will never see TG doing is exactly what is wrong with the game - if this were the way it was supposed to be why have Epics (that require more than just killing faction enemies) why have live runs, why bother to expand on the story at all?......probably because the devs are trying to add more depth to the game - wasted on you obviously because you dont have the mental capacity to ask yourself why they bother
But what game, prior to SWG promoted RP in your opinion? (and I'm hoping youre going to suggest something youve at least played)
Cant we do without comments like "if you just want to PvP then
play planetside/CS/quake"? We all know how valid that is, even
the PKers of MMORPGs want more "RP" than that, and it doesnt
necesary mean that they want to say crap like "draw thy sword"
every other minute. If you look at the amount of time you actually
spend fighting in a MMORPG and then compare it to PS/CS/Q,
then theres a drastical difference, even if you take a PKer as your
MMORPG player example. The community, the atmosphere and
the immersion is just as important to most of the "PKers" as it is
to everyone else.
I played Planetside, I will be surprised if it can keep any MMORPG
players interested for more than three months tops. If you just
want your online FPS fix then the game is great, but thats all it is.
Originally posted by ezza
the way the current system is its all stacked in the favour of the non Pvper, seeing as now people dont drop there rares, i think the item that drops should just fall in the floor no belt just the item.
I don't think so. It stops the tourist PK'ers and those hardcore (which would be 10% of population) would still kill. You could even just pick the best opposing faction for the server and PK that way.
The reason PK'ers don't survive (barring syncs) is that eventually you will be caught if you piss enough people off. You basically put a reward on your head that others can collect by killing you. Unlike other bounty systems the PK'er could exploit to collect the reward on themselves. This way they become the reward.
Remember, PK'ing is killing people who have not chance of fighting back. Hit and runs. The game is more PvP centric (in that it is fair for everyone).
So you want to do rampant killing, you can in the game. Just PK'ers having the balls to fight with an actual challange is very rare.
Originally posted by Benjie
Remove quickbelts. When you die you loose 1 or 2 items max. No safe slot.
Remove the Law enforcer and make a Head Enforcment to replace it. This head enforcment dousn't stop PVP at all and you can still be killed, but your name is removed from Peoples list and you only drop 1 item. You are not allowed to join a clan with one if these implanted.
Pker runs in, kills a lot of ppl, loots a shitload of stuff.
Dead ppl genrep, get poked, prepare to kill the PKer, go back.
Pker gone already, sitting in his apt with a shitload of new stuff.
Other ppl are fucked.
Originally posted by 5150
Actually every MMORPG I've every played has had a community dominated by non-RPers. These may not be PvP players and just the 'we wont spoon fed content' types but every game has always had a very vocal PvP group asking for 'more reason to PvP' and 'more risk vs reward' and 'dont listen to the carebears'.
And in every other game who gets listened to? It's not the PvPers. So finally we get a PvP MMORPG and look what happens. :rolleyes:
Perhaps your points would be more valid if you cut the crap with stereotypes and generalisations? You're arguing that people PvP in Neocron because they don't want a fair fight, which is complete and utter BS. If you want to argue that, then surely I can argue that you only wear the LE so that you can talk shit to people without them killing you for it?
The true reason people PvP in Neocron is because it's about 500x more exciting than a game of CS or Quake. Nopthing is predetermined - it's not like you see a shotgunner in CS so you snipe him, you see a rifleman in DoD so you go up close with an SMG. There's far more thinking to do on that level because you really don't know what your opponent might pull out of his sleeve, and you really don't know what his weaknesses are, unlike FPSs where you know all of your opponents strengths and weaknesses the second you see the message that he killed someone.
Then of course the RP. There are just as many RPing PvPers as there are RPers with LE chips. Certainly too few overall but there is no correlation whatsoever between the LE chip and RP, nor is there any correlation between PvP and a lack of RP.
Originally posted by SorkZmok
Pker runs in, kills a lot of ppl, loots a shitload of stuff.
Dead ppl genrep, get poked, prepare to kill the PKer, go back.
Pker gone already, sitting in his apt with a shitload of new stuff.
Other ppl are fucked.
LOL what does he kill them with? There is no instant-kill-everyone-in-the-room weapon in this game. The only time a PKer could kill multiple people all by himself and loot all their weapons is if he killed a bunch of newbs, which a) is just plain wrong and should have penalties and b) won't earn him any worthwhile loot. If people actually had to worry about losing an item to a PKer they would be mroe on their toes and would fight off any PKer who showed up.
IMO soulight loss should work like this.
If the person you attack is lower than you then the bigger the gap of the person you are PK'ing, the more SL loss you take. If Enemy faction then soulight loss is lowered, and highered if allied faction. Only the attacker should loose soulight.
There should also be a way for the person you pk'ed to 'drop the charges'. I am sick to death of accidental killing and suffering badly for it.
what he said.
I'd also like to see a maximum possible sl loss, I went from 94 SL to -6 in one kill at mb a few months back, that is a bag of shite in my opinion.
Originally posted by Rade
Cant we do without comments like "if you just want to PvP then
play planetside/CS/quake"? We all know how valid that is, even
the PKers of MMORPGs want more "RP" than that, and it doesnt
necesary mean that they want to say crap like "draw thy sword"
every other minute. If you look at the amount of time you actually
spend fighting in a MMORPG and then compare it to PS/CS/Q,
then theres a drastical difference, even if you take a PKer as your
MMORPG player example. The community, the atmosphere and
the immersion is just as important to most of the "PKers" as it is
to everyone else.
I played Planetside, I will be surprised if it can keep any MMORPG
players interested for more than three months tops. If you just
want your online FPS fix then the game is great, but thats all it is.
I'll just refer you to Twitches post on the previous page for how much RP the average NC PvP player engages in (if this doesnt apply to you personally, fine, but dont try and pretend its not there)
I just cant corrolate why KK go to the trouble of live runs and the content in NeMa/Neocronical if this is just a PvP game (as so many of you claim) - its a waste of resource for one thing as it does nothing for PvP. For PvP all you need to really do is provide the reason for the conflict
I see what your sayinbg Sckikar but it aint the RPers getting listened to either (2 examples: Eve has no RP period, PvP still got nerfed. AO's RP was walked all over by the 'we want content' brigade - looks like both sides here are disposessed from other MMORPGs)
While I appreciate that NC PvP has alot more variables than an FPS (and yes I'm including Planetside here) and hence could be seen as more exciting (personally I dont see it but then I dont PvP in NC so I'm not best placed to judge) there is a price for that and that price is balance. No ones going to pretend that everyone thinks NC is balanced (PPU aregument anyone) I also dont see why that has to also come at the price of putting certain groups of players into undesirable situations (i.e. LE chip and getting attacked by much harder runners). Character combinations notwithstanding all the background 'fluff' in NeMa/Neocronical/Epic run is still completely uneeded for this aspect of the game - so why have it?
Originally posted by El_MUERkO
what he said.
I'd also like to see a maximum possible sl loss, I went from 94 SL to -6 in one kill at mb a few months back, that is a bag of shite in my opinion.
you were lucky i went from 100 to -25 SL with some LOS newb hit.
Originally posted by 5150
I'll just refer you to Twitches post on the previous page for how much RP the average NC PvP player engages in (if this doesnt apply to you personally, fine, but dont try and pretend its not there)
I just cant corrolate why KK go to the trouble of live runs and the content in NeMa/Neocronical if this is just a PvP game (as so many of you claim) - its a waste of resource for one thing as it does nothing for PvP. For PvP all you need to really do is provide the reason for the conflict
I see what your sayinbg Sckikar but it aint the RPers getting listened to either (2 examples: Eve has no RP period, PvP still got nerfed. AO's RP was walked all over by the 'we want content' brigade - looks like both sides here are disposessed from other MMORPGs)
While I appreciate that NC PvP has alot more variables than an FPS (and yes I'm including Planetside here) and hence could be seen as more exciting (personally I dont see it but then I dont PvP in NC so I'm not best placed to judge) there is a price for that and that price is balance. No ones going to pretend that everyone thinks NC is balanced (PPU aregument anyone) I also dont see why that has to also come at the price of putting certain groups of players into undesirable situations (i.e. LE chip and getting attacked by much harder runners). Character combinations notwithstanding all the background 'fluff' in NeMa/Neocronical/Epic run is still completely uneeded for this aspect of the game - so why have it?
PvP is so much more than just fighting and FPS. PvP is everything
around it as well, its the conflict between people, the risk, the
reward, the roleplaying. I have been promoting PvP strongly in
different games since -95, I was admin on a mud between -96
and -99 and my responsibility was balance and PvP, even tho this
was my main concern I was also always heavily into RP, this
probably because of the countless hours Ive spent with
traditional pen and paper RPGs where roleplaying is the core and
hack n slash is virtually non-existant. The biggest obstacle for RP
in games like these are the lack of realism within the games
frames. Death not being more than a little hassle makes many
things weird, artificial limitations such as safe areas or LE chips
which doesnt have a decent explanation how they work also
impedes roleplay, the list is long. Now, dont mistake PvPers for
people who just want a quick action fix, they are in most cases
just as immersed in the game as you are, and the MMORPG
aspect of the game is as important to their playstyle as it is to
the "RPers". Solutions to problems such as ganking should not
come from simple limitations on the gameplay which doesnt make
sense, they should come from the community or realistic
implimentations of punishments for crimes. The faction system,
altho flawed, is a step in the right direction. Murderers should be
under constant attacks from the offended factions, affiliated NPCs
shouldnt talk to the person, bounties should be put out for
anyone to be able to cash in on. There should be reasons
besides doing a good deed to hunt down criminals and there
should be means of doing it, such as a tracking system (the old
location on citycom for example). This way as many "PvPers"
would be on the "good" side, or if perfected there wouldnt be a
good and a evil side, just different sides where you neednt have
no remorse for killing an enemy, because thats all they are too
you, enemies. This is preferably done by having different races
with different languages or something similar so that there can
be no communication with the enemies, thus objectifying them.
Bah rant off. I even forgot my point. Ill get back to it later.
KRIMINAL99
21-10-03, 16:31
Originally posted by 5150
While I appreciate that NC PvP has alot more variables than an FPS (and yes I'm including Planetside here) and hence could be seen as more exciting (personally I dont see it but then I dont PvP in NC so I'm not best placed to judge) there is a price for that and that price is balance. No ones going to pretend that everyone thinks NC is balanced (PPU aregument anyone) I also dont see why that has to also come at the price of putting certain groups of players into undesirable situations (i.e. LE chip and getting attacked by much harder runners). Character combinations notwithstanding all the background 'fluff' in NeMa/Neocronical/Epic run is still completely uneeded for this aspect of the game - so why have it?
You seem to be missing a major difference between games like planetside and games like Neocron. In all video games you have a goal. In an fps its to kill everyone in the world and show how uber you are. After about 5 minutes of playing an fps you "subconsiously" realize that you are either better than everyone else, or you aren't and you aren't going to get any emotional satisfaction from playing this game. And if you are the best, within 5 minutes everyone you can beat leaves and probably at least one person better than you will come. A MMORPG, even with FPS fighting, is totally different. Your goal, instead of just killing everyone and showing you have better twitch skills, is to come up with the best character setup, maybe prove your ub3r economic skills, or to become incredibly wealthy, or maybe to become powerful by building the biggest clan. PVP is now just a means to aquire those other goals- if you kill them and get their loot then now you are only one step closer to being rich. If you lose, its not the end of the experience because you can still get stronger and try again. There is absolutely no way a game like planetside can compare to this.
5150 I think you need to realise that people can post something about the state of a game, why it was created, what the people want etc that is in line with their own views and it is not automatically subjective. Sometimes its just the truth, and maybe the peoples ideas and desires are based off the truth as opposed to people creating their own truth to suit their ideas.
Somewhere there is a post by KK staff specifically telling people that Neocron is a PVP based game and that pking is a major part of it. Im looking for it now but its not like it really even matters because even if you see it you will just lie to yourself about what he really meant etc. You see while all of our statements have been founded on reality and we have repeatedly shown evidence of the things we say, YOU on the other hand have yet to shown one bit of proof for absolutely anything that you have said. You are constantly making statements about why people are leaving games, whats wrong with other games, how your friends left (but apparently have no names) etc etc yet have yet to show anything that these statements are based on.
I'll just refer you to Twitches post on the previous page for how much RP the average NC PvP player engages in (if this doesnt apply to you personally, fine, but dont try and pretend its not there)
Define roleplay in Neocron for me.
Seeing as we're not battling dragons, speaking the queens english, and charging off to battle on white and black horses - we cannot use the old ideals.
Seeing as this game is based on a more modern set - and the Ceres discs were made... in a time similar to ours; the standards and norms of conversation and such recorded - which later became the norms of Neocron would be very similar. No?
Anyway, there's plenty of RP, you just choose not to see it because its not the stereotypical "Good Day to you, Mr. Protopharma-runner man." BS.
Hell, the interaction of people with their character is obviously such, they empower their player so its generally nothing like the real person behind it - how can you not say there's roleplay?
I just cant corrolate why KK go to the trouble of live runs and the content in NeMa/Neocronical if this is just a PvP game (as so many of you claim) - its a waste of resource for one thing as it does nothing for PvP. For PvP all you need to really do is provide the reason for the conflict
Because, NeMa and the Neocronical are easy, in-character, ways to explain the following:
1.) Glitches
2.) Expansions / New items
3.) Changes in Politics
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by enablerbr
you were lucky i went from 100 to -25 SL with some LOS newb hit.
Which is exactly why we need an option to drop the charges.
1: It makes use of the NCPD in a cool ass way.
2: the obvious bit.
One problem, that means everybody's soulight drop amount would need to be stored on the database causing problems. One sollution is to make soulight loss a set amount and just up the drop by the set amount. Maybe there could be a number of set amounts depending on the gap in rank depending on you and the player.
This would fix a huge problem in the game for me.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
You seem to be missing a major difference between games like planetside and games like Neocron. In all video games you have a goal. In an fps its to kill everyone in the world and show how uber you are. After about 5 minutes of playing an fps you "subconsiously" realize that you are either better than everyone else, or you aren't and you aren't going to get any emotional satisfaction from playing this game. And if you are the best, within 5 minutes everyone you can beat leaves and probably at least one person better than you will come. A MMORPG, even with FPS fighting, is totally different. Your goal, instead of just killing everyone and showing you have better twitch skills, is to come up with the best character setup, maybe prove your ub3r economic skills, or to become incredibly wealthy, or maybe to become powerful by building the biggest clan. PVP is now just a means to aquire those other goals- if you kill them and get their loot then now you are only one step closer to being rich. If you lose, its not the end of the experience because you can still get stronger and try again. There is absolutely no way a game like planetside can compare to this.
5150 I think you need to realise that people can post something about the state of a game, why it was created, what the people want etc that is in line with their own views and it is not automatically subjective. Sometimes its just the truth, and maybe the peoples ideas and desires are based off the truth as opposed to people creating their own truth to suit their ideas.
Somewhere there is a post by KK staff specifically telling people that Neocron is a PVP based game and that pking is a major part of it. Im looking for it now but its not like it really even matters because even if you see it you will just lie to yourself about what he really meant etc. You see while all of our statements have been founded on reality and we have repeatedly shown evidence of the things we say, YOU on the other hand have yet to shown one bit of proof for absolutely anything that you have said. You are constantly making statements about why people are leaving games, whats wrong with other games, how your friends left (but apparently have no names) etc etc yet have yet to show anything that these statements are based on.
Recent threads have shown the futility in trying to get you to see a game beyond PvP - you claim facts but I'm not seeing any - I see game changes that support my position (which you want changed back) which is the reality here, I see NeMa, Neocronical, Epic and live runs that show a developer creating a game world where more happens than blowing people away, in short I do not see anything that makes me feel I'm in the wrong game with my opinion.
I could tell you my friends whos mains were Morg Northrang, Ezzeckell and Vladvon left the game, but the names wont mean anything to you, they were in my clan and none of them PvP'ed - why you feel knowing these 3 names is important confounds me but there you go.
I see a game in need of players yet not getting any, and I see a playerbase asking why. NC will never appeal to the FPS crowd because its intrinsically unfair PvP, and never to the RP crowd because the PvP system is forced on the player. Nor the achiever/powergamer because the missions are trivial and apparently the static content quickly consumed, or the casual gamer because of the first 2 issues combined.
In short I see a game that has gone from a true MMORPG (with a FPS PvP system) to a PvP game devoid of RP content because of an outspoken PvP community that just cant see any other way and personally I think this has to change if the overall situation is to change
Of this PvP community I see people unable to hold a civil, reasoned and rational discussion thus resorting to flaming and childish behavior (I'm not directing this at anyone specifically we all know who fits here and who doesnt) and one unable to tolorate let alone accomodate anyone with a differing viewpoint. In short I see selfish people who can only seem to be happy/having fun at someone elses expense (while simultaneously trivialising the impact of this behaviour for the victom)
Of course this is all my opinion, and notwithstanding the facts that I have presented (NeMa, Neocronical etc) you are free to disagree (and I have no doubt you will) and on the facts presented I suspect you will interperate those as Marx has and pass them off as a bored and underworked developer who writes patch notes as huge full colour PDF documents and adds missions that have nothing at all to do with PvP just to see how anoyed the players get, and underworked and bored gms giving missions to groups of players because theres nothing else to do. I see a large background story/history possibly the biggest I've ever seen for an online game, apparently only there to justify why x kills y all the time (when Planetsides couple of paragraphs would probably have done the job just as well). In short I see loads of evidence that the developer intended this game to be far more than just PvP on a plate
when will you get the point that every charecter is a role, just ebcause they dont act like you and with honor and that stuff does not mean they are not RPin for god sake.
every personality is a role, so stop using 'RP' as an excuse not to give this game back to the pvpers and pkers
The live runs and missions etc have everything to do with PvP. They're just providing the reasons why we PvP. You think the war with DoY is going to be purely PvM? Perhaps we should replace weapons with spawn tools - CA can get an Elite StormBot gun, and DoY can get DoY bot guns, and they'll spawn mobs at each other so they can have a war without any PvP. :rolleyes:
I suspect you will interperate those as Marx has and pass them off as a bored and underworked developer who writes patch notes as huge full colour PDF documents and adds missions that have nothing at all to do with PvP
So I'm wrong in the fact that NeMa and Neocronical do absolutely nothing other than explain glitches, politics, and new material?
Surely I'm not.
I see a game in need of players yet not getting any
Well, one reason they're not getting any more people at the current is because they're not on the shelves anymore - seems that they've stopped production.
:rolleyes:
Just because its on fileplanet doesn't mean its everywhere.
In short I see a game that has gone from a true MMORPG (with a FPS PvP system) to a PvP game devoid of RP content because of an outspoken PvP community that just cant see any other way and personally I think this has to change if the overall situation is to change
Buddah's blue balls - you're the best damned spin doctor this side of Al-Sahaaf. The game started out as a great PvP game - but if you haven't noticed, most of the hardcore PvP players are gone - because in a moment of weakness in MJS's heart; the carebears took a stab and won him over. Now 'PvP' in this game comes at great consequence, comparitively.
:rolleyes:
. I see a large background story/history possibly the biggest I've ever seen for an online game, apparently only there to justify why x kills y all the time (when Planetsides couple of paragraphs would probably have done the job just as well). In short I see loads of evidence that the developer intended this game to be far more than just PvP on a plate
Ok, when countries are at war... should they be nice to eachother? No - will some people on each side be nice? Yes.
Same deal for factions, its not that they don't get along, they are at WAR. For some factions the war is outright - slaughter the enemy; for others it takes more work to condone; i.e.:
the only way to deal is to destroy the City Admins ability to economically cope (i.e. OP wars) or to take it out directly against CA officials - in the hope that it will slow down CA's slow trudge towards total control (i.e. PK)
because its intrinsically unfair PvP, and never to the RP crowd because the PvP system is forced on the player
How is the PvP system unfair? What; you actually have to think about how to set up your stats? The bigger person who's been playing longer is obviously going to pwn the newblar? Please define how it's unfair.
Recent threads have shown the futility in trying to get you to see a game beyond PvP - you claim facts but I'm not seeing any
I used to be a 'carebear' - in fact, I was probably one of the many whos whining changed the game, the simple fact is RP is everywhere, no one acts the way in game as they do in life - hence they're playing a role... Roleplaying. You cannot simply play this game for it's roleplay value, much in the way you can't play any game soley for its roleplay value.
This game revolves around PvP - MJS and multiple coders and higherups have already stated so. Wake up and smell the coffee.
Originally posted by Style
when will you get the point that every charecter is a role, just ebcause they dont act like you and with honor and that stuff does not mean they are not RPin for god sake.
every personality is a role, so stop using 'RP' as an excuse not to give this game back to the pvpers and pkers
Interestingly I already consider this game 'owned' by the PvP/PKers
Would you still want the game back if it meant the playerbase never got any bigger, Neptune never happened as a result of that even though you got the PvP rules changed back?
Marx - once you take the time to actually read my posts I'll take the time to reply to yours - what I refuse to do is answer your questions when I've already covered them....usually at some length
Scikar - explain how the NEXT run has anything to do with PvP? Explain how the DRE run has (bearing in mind that the kill in the DRE run is not requested or required by Diamond but by an individual looking for revenge who you need to get on your side) - explaining _why_ you PvP is very different to taking the time to design and impliment an Epic run that has loads of different parts and (in the cases I know about) the majoritory of which have nothing to do with PvP but deal with the interplay (and not always negative) between factions and the efforts they go to (not always overtly hostile) to advance their position (which although may be at the detriment of their opposition doesnt always involve or even require open hostility - NEXT Epic is a good example of this regarding Protopharma)
I have no problem with PvP or most PKers.
But i do have a problem with PKers who insits on killing people 30 lvls lower than them, then when confronted by someone who might be able to do some damage to them they run.....it makes no sense, and for someone to say that is fair and should be more rewarding is crazy. There should be penaltys in place for killing someone who is not near the same rank as you (SL loss) but if someone fights someone who is only a rank higher or lower, then they shouldent suffer such a high SL drop.
PvP is about factions and clans not getting along so they kill each other, botoom line, hell you could even say that your a criminal and you kill to steal the items they drop (every world has criminals why not NC) but for a allied faction to come in the aggie cellars and say "Im bored" and kill my */12 PPU for no reason, thats just stupid.
Yes NC is supposed to be a dangerous world, but its also civilized world, and no world like NC would allow rampant killing of its citizens (its how the city makes money for gods sake).
So yes the SL loss should be reduced, but only for people who PK people who have a chance at fighting back, not someone with a **/69 rank killing */15 noobs in the cellar who are just trying to lvl.
I also agree that the drop system is a little screwed, i think one item from one of the quick slots should drop, not just a random item from the inv. that way you are ensured it is something the char. you killed was planning on using, so it could be anything, a 5 slot libby to a used up med kit.
just my 2 cents
Marx - once you take the time to actually read my posts I'll take the time to reply to yours - what I refuse to do is answer your questions when I've already covered them....usually at some length
No, I read them, you still haven't responded.
You still haven't defined RP in Neocron.
What is covered in NeMa and the Neocronical? (glitches, politics, and expansions maybe?)
Lastly, you still haven't acknowledged that the powers that be designed this game to revolve around Player vs. Player conflict.
You continue posting, trying to force your opinion across; saying that the person who plays and kills other players is wrong, and a vandal/cretin. You have no backing for those inferences.
Boohoo - you've been victimized by PKers... so have most of the community. You know how to cope? Make your guy big and strong and fight back, or get in league with some folks who can protect you.
Newbies don't run from games like this - in fact there are communities... Rather large ones at that, the revolve soley around PKing in games. The simple fact that NC has had piss poor marketing is the simplest way to explain why we've failed to tap in to those groups.
Devils Grace
21-10-03, 20:04
for me what kills the fun of pvp its the trash talk (and i can blame my slef on that to, i did it once long time ago, but ive learned).
why da fuck ppl really hate each ohter inside a video game, WHY when u kill (or get killed) u insult the other person that killed u (or u killed) i just dont understand that.
it should be a laugh (pvp), and lots of fun, instead ppl insult, acuse, abuse..........etc ((;) to shujin).
if that wouldnt hapend, this game would be a lot better, regardeless if i droped my 5 sloted soemtin (consequence)
it should hapend the same as in the op wars, ppl cheer up each others for good fights.
now n00b pking, well has someone said the real world isnt perfect, why should this fiction world with real ppl be better ?
u get pked kuz ur low lvl and u didnt had ur LE in, grow up, get stronger, and get even
Shadow Dancer
21-10-03, 20:07
Excellent thread, i just request that some people here try to space out their posts with paragraphs, makes it 20x easier to read.
Originally posted by 5150
Interestingly I already consider this game 'owned' by the PvP/PKers
Would you still want the game back if it meant the playerbase never got any bigger, Neptune never happened as a result of that even though you got the PvP rules changed back?
Marx - once you take the time to actually read my posts I'll take the time to reply to yours - what I refuse to do is answer your questions when I've already covered them....usually at some length
Technically the old rules aren't any better. What we need is:
Any item can drop, whether it's in your QB, your processor, or your inventory. The exceptions are items under a certain TL (my first thought is TL20, but this could probably use some tweaking), and stuff like apartment keys, clan keys, vehicle keys and tools.
Items drop into a QB which is not locked. When an item is taken from a QB, an ingame mail is sent to the owner of the QB saying who took it and what the item was. This info is also available if you click on the empty belt.
No items drop in hunting zones, and no items drop in warzones, however high level caves e.g. Chaos caves become anarchy zones. Hunting zones are restricted to TH energy cores, storage areas, cellars and sewers.
Your SL does not affect the items you drop.
CopBots would of course still kill people with low SL.
If we had changes like this implemented, we wouldn't really need to have Neptune because it wouldn't really bring much. It's something like this that we really want, no safezones and no LE would just be a bonus.
Also 5150 you are just as guilty of rehashing the same argument and failing to respond to points as Marx is.
Also 5150 you are just as guilty of rehashing the same argument and failing to respond to points as Marx is
:angel:
Originally posted by Marx
No, I read them, you still haven't responded.
You still haven't defined RP in Neocron.
What is covered in NeMa and the Neocronical? (glitches, politics, and expansions maybe?)
Lastly, you still haven't acknowledged that the powers that be designed this game to revolve around Player vs. Player conflict.
You continue posting, trying to force your opinion across; saying that the person who plays and kills other players is wrong, and a vandal/cretin. You have no backing for those inferences.
Boohoo - you've been victimized by PKers... so have most of the community. You know how to cope? Make your guy big and strong and fight back, or get in league with some folks who can protect you.
Newbies don't run from games like this - in fact there are communities... Rather large ones at that, the revolve soley around PKing in games. The simple fact that NC has had piss poor marketing is the simplest way to explain why we've failed to tap in to those groups.
RP in NC is anything that deals with the interplay and politics between factions, furthing their goals and blocking their opponents. While I totally accept that this _involves_ PvP it doesnt start, stop and soley exist there in the middle (I have to admit I find it funny when you guys define RP as talking 'English' and saying 'draw my sword' etc - it really does show how far off the mark you are.
Now while Style is partly correct that everyone plays a role one has to look at what role people have chosen to play. For a iron grip dictatorship as NC is there are far too many psychos, criminals, madmen and terrorists walking around comitting crime and basically getting away with is scot free.
I covered Nema etc in my last post so I'm not rehashing it here
With regards to the powers that be (and I know Kriminal is just waiting to jump on this) if PvP is such a core element why where the changes (that you guys hate so much) made? Surely the developer wont do a complete 180 on the game concept? (or is it that you guys put too much faith in the 'this is a PvP game' argument?)
Why is my viewpoint so hard to accept? I acknowledge PvP is needed but I ask that its not forced down players throats or that they accept a life of gimpdom as an alternative - why is this such a hard thing for you to appreciate?
You next point is interesting - just why should I _have_ to spend my time levelling up (doing something that I'd rather not be doing) just to cope with a game element I dont even want to be exposed to - thats just saying "if youre not having fun, go and do something just as un-fun (if not worse) for ages and then it might not happen, or you might be able to fight them off, but more than likely they'll have levelled up even more or be replaced by someone even higher who just do it to you again" I refuse to have my playstyle dictated to me, christ I dont have much time to play as it is, and now you suggest I spend all that time treadmilling on the off chance it puts people off attacking me. Or join a clan and expose myself to all the political infighting that comes with it, talk about jumping for frying pan into fire, I join a clan to avoid PvP and end up getting even more people attacking me just because of the extra label I now carry - genius
In short your solutions to my PK issue seem destined to make me play the game in a way I dont want to or expose myself to even more PvP
Any barrier to gameplay will put newbies off (especially if they are on a free trial) the agro factor just wont be worth it. Anything that deprives new players of (comparitively) hard earned progress is a barrier to new players. Put it another way if MC5 puts off new player how do you think they will react to getting their ass handed to them in 1 shot by a guy they never even met before and never even had chance to get the name of?
In NCs case I think its too easy to blame CDV for the lack of players in NC. But I guess we'll just have to wait and see what KK have up their sleeve with this potential new publisher - personally I think youre going to be dispointed (I wont say there wont be any new players I just dont think there will be the kind of influx you lot want/need/are expecting) if not with the signups then with the retention rates.
I dont think these groups you speak of exist - you lot seem to be unique but I've already covered why those groups havent adopted NC already. You want the progression and game world of a MMORPG but all you want is unrestricted carnage and a free hand to put the hurt on anyone you like. While thats certainly post-apocalypse style, it certainly isnt the dictated iron rule and absolute order that is NC (under Reza or the monks rule)
It's funny how the only two factions you ever hear of with psychos and criminals in are the two factions you would expect to find them - TG and BD. Obviously you don't get crazy mad psychos in Tangent and ProtoPharm because they wouldn't give them a job in the first place, and Reza kicks them out of the city. You've forgotten again (yet you come down like a ton of bricks on Marx for the same thing) that the anti-city factions support being KoSd by CopBots as much as the pro-city factions do.
Originally posted by Scikar
It's funny how the only two factions you ever hear of with psychos and criminals in are the two factions you would expect to find them - TG and BD. Obviously you don't get crazy mad psychos in Tangent and ProtoPharm because they wouldn't give them a job in the first place, and Reza kicks them out of the city. You've forgotten again (yet you come down like a ton of bricks on Marx for the same thing) that the anti-city factions support being KoSd by CopBots as much as the pro-city factions do.
I havent forgotten it because that particular game mechanic is not whats being discussed. If they support the change why dont they jusy self impose it on themselves (i.e. RP it) buttom line is that people cannot police themselves, if the game doesnt stop them they'll go ahead and do it.
Actually your view of TG is off here (back to the whole RP thing now) since Reza himself was TG your suggesting that NC is ruled by a psycho - now while some people might say that about him I think if we're all honest here Reze is some crazed murderer.
If TG, in its player incarnation, were to ever defeat Reza the city would in theory become an Anarchy, because even if the ruling body of TG were to install themselves in power the actually runner than make up TG would just go around killing murdering and stealing - now while they might make very effective terrorists they dont make particularly desirable citizens (and if they ever one they would expect to joing their leaders back in NC)
This is a classic example of how the current player base dont RP one iota, I can swallow this RP PvP when its is in character (as I keep saying I dont have a problem with the concept of PvP) but this example just shows how the player manage to shoot the background story to shit (I suppose in your defence though you'd all be Anarchy Breed given the choice and under the circumstances that would work)
Why is my viewpoint so hard to accept? I acknowledge PvP is needed but I ask that its not forced down players throats or that they accept a life of gimpdom as an alternative - why is this such a hard thing for you to appreciate?
Those that do not wish to take part can wear an LE... OR, they can confer with others and have good relations with those that would kill them.
I've never had a problem getting pk'd for awhile now - why? Because I'm friendly to most - a nice guy to all.
Anyway, I hardly see how wearing an LE 'gimps' you aside from the inability to make clans. I got close to capping a LE melee tank, no problems; of course I couldn't be rezzed... but you know, thats part of the chance you take by relying on it for safety.
Now while Style is partly correct that everyone plays a role one has to look at what role people have chosen to play. For a iron grip dictatorship as NC is there are far too many psychos, criminals, madmen and terrorists walking around comitting crime and basically getting away with is scot free
I can agree with you that there are far too many 'men in black hats'. In time those things will change - on Pluto the balance of power changes fairly frequently bringing in new sets of ideals.
With regards to the powers that be (and I know Kriminal is just waiting to jump on this) if PvP is such a core element why where the changes (that you guys hate so much) made?
Because the 'victim' community gets sympathy while the 'PK' community are viewd as anti-social misfits?
You next point is interesting - just why should I _have_ to spend my time levelling up (doing something that I'd rather not be doing) just to cope with a game element I dont even want to be exposed to
THEN KEEP YOUR LE IN, OR MAKE FRIENDS WITH THOSE THAT WILL PROTECT YOU, OR PLAY NICE WITH THOSE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
Not at all a hard concept to accept. The chat applet sort of shows that talking is an available option in any circumstance.
Any barrier to gameplay will put newbies off (especially if they are on a free trial) the agro factor just wont be worth it. Anything that deprives new players of (comparitively) hard earned progress is a barrier to new players. Put it another way if MC5 puts off new player how do you think they will react to getting their ass handed to them in 1 shot by a guy they never even met before and never even had chance to get the name of?
Like another thread asked awhile back "What do you do to get PK'd so much?". The only players I know that have been repeatedly killed as a 'noob' were those that weren't 'noob's and were in fact people that rerolled to avoid their former characters misdeeds.
The biggest problem is the steep learning curve imo - but thats another topic all together.
No weapon kills anyone in one shot... ever.
But I guess we'll just have to wait and see what KK have up their sleeve with this potential new publisher - personally I think youre going to be dispointed (I wont say there wont be any new players I just dont think there will be the kind of influx you lot want/need/are expecting) if not with the signups then with the retention rates.
*shrugs* I don't particularly care about new player influx, however; the more the merrier.
I dont think these groups you speak of exist
PK-HQ (http://www.pk-hq.com)
This is the only one around (at least that I've seen) that has an affiliation with Neocron.
Originally posted by Marx
Those that do not wish to take part can wear an LE... OR, they can confer with others and have good relations with those that would kill them.
I've never had a problem getting pk'd for awhile now - why? Because I'm friendly to most - a nice guy to all.
Anyway, I hardly see how wearing an LE 'gimps' you aside from the inability to make clans. I got close to capping a LE melee tank, no problems; of course I couldn't be rezzed... but you know, thats part of the chance you take by relying on it for safety.
I can agree with you that there are far too many 'men in black hats'. In time those things will change - on Pluto the balance of power changes fairly frequently bringing in new sets of ideals.
Because the 'victim' community gets sympathy while the 'PK' community are viewd as anti-social misfits?
THEN KEEP YOUR LE IN, OR MAKE FRIENDS WITH THOSE THAT WILL PROTECT YOU, OR PLAY NICE WITH THOSE THAT WOULD KILL YOU.
Not at all a hard concept to accept. The chat applet sort of shows that talking is an available option in any circumstance.
Like another thread asked awhile back "What do you do to get PK'd so much?". The only players I know that have been repeatedly killed as a 'noob' were those that weren't 'noob's and were in fact people that rerolled to avoid their former characters misdeeds.
The biggest problem is the steep learning curve imo - but thats another topic all together.
No weapon kills anyone in one shot... ever.
*shrugs* I don't particularly care about new player influx, however; the more the merrier.
PK-HQ (http://www.pk-hq.com)
This is the only one around (at least that I've seen) that has an affiliation with Neocron.
Now if PvP is its own reward (however you wish to view said 'reward') why should an LE equipped character not be able to make a clan? If they have opted out of PvP they cant hold Outposts so thats not a concern, I totally fail to see why these players are prevented from employing the only static instrument for organising a group of people - and the only answer I ever seem to get back is 'because you dont PvP' which is a rediculous reply since the 2 are not/need not be mutually exclusive
Well I dont get Pked because I have my LE in - I hated getting Pked so I stopped playing for a while (yes its that large of a barrier to some) but finally put it in, but I had to lose my clan over it (but they all went and left as I already mentioned) my clan leadership and appartment are now held by and alt who does nothing but cover in said appartment until I need something which is a right royal pain in the ass and a waste of a character slot
Just because you dont see the PKing (because you dont do it yourself, dont know anyone who does or dont go where it happens) doesnt mean it isnt still a problem
On that note I think it has a lot to do with the smack talking people someone mentioned earlier. Its likely that the smack talkers are the same people (if not the same characters) that just dont know hwo to regulate themselves - I wont go into why I think these people do what they do we can all make our own minds up on that one
Ok 2 shots then, but you see what I'm driving at
Yeah.
I think LE clans should be made. But I think restrictions should be made so as the clans are not populated with people hiding from their actions. The only problem I see with that is it grants the clan to be extremely rude without fear of reprisal. I remember reading a complaint where a group of LE'd people were camping MC5 for extremly long periods of time, preventing other runners from getting parts, etc. =/
I can agree that there still are people that rampantly PK.
But I also acknowledge that there are just as many, if not double that number that would prevent, or protect the player getting PK'd if it happened in front of them - or if they knew about it.
On that note I think it has a lot to do with the smack talking people someone mentioned earlier. Its likely that the smack talkers are the same people (if not the same characters) that just dont know hwo to regulate themselves.
I can agree with that, know a number of people with that particular ailment.
:D
Anyway, both of us are too stubborn to give ground; so I'll just give up early.
Originally posted by 5150
I havent forgotten it because that particular game mechanic is not whats being discussed. If they support the change why dont they jusy self impose it on themselves (i.e. RP it) buttom line is that people cannot police themselves, if the game doesnt stop them they'll go ahead and do it.
Actually your view of TG is off here (back to the whole RP thing now) since Reza himself was TG your suggesting that NC is ruled by a psycho - now while some people might say that about him I think if we're all honest here Reze is some crazed murderer.
If TG, in its player incarnation, were to ever defeat Reza the city would in theory become an Anarchy, because even if the ruling body of TG were to install themselves in power the actually runner than make up TG would just go around killing murdering and stealing - now while they might make very effective terrorists they dont make particularly desirable citizens (and if they ever one they would expect to joing their leaders back in NC)
This is a classic example of how the current player base dont RP one iota, I can swallow this RP PvP when its is in character (as I keep saying I dont have a problem with the concept of PvP) but this example just shows how the player manage to shoot the background story to shit (I suppose in your defence though you'd all be Anarchy Breed given the choice and under the circumstances that would work)
Actually no, I would be TG, because I want to see NC ruled by a democracy (a PvPer wanting something fair? OMG!). I was at first CityAdmin, and I viewed TGs as being evil, until I realised TG was much more of a brotherhood, whereas CA exists purely to do Reza's bidding. So I turned my back on Reza, and joined TG, intending to establish a democracy (which is btw much better for promoting peace than a dictatorship), and to exterminate Reza and the scum who support him. Reza was TG, yes, but he turned his back by establishing himself as the sole leader, when the ideals behind TG are democracy. I view Tangent and the other factions which support Reza and CA as evil, therefore I kill them. Some I believe don't truly support Reza, and so I instead aim to persuade them to join the right side and fight the good fight, but the vast majority are blind to the truth and would rather fight and die, so be it.
There is a lack of RP overall in this game, not just among the PvP community. There is also just as much shit talking on each side of the fence, there are people who will DM a victim with all sorts of insults after shooting them in the back, but there are also LE users who will follow around other players talking shit, and non-PvPers who are in city factions without LEs, who will talk shit to TGs at CRP when they get killed. I've seen all 3, and they come in equal amounts.
all this Reza and TG crap pfhh you know it is going to be Crahn who will once more rule Neocron;)
What's funny is the tradeskills people who don't even pvp still are in plaza 1 going "***-=-=TL 120 POKING, ACCEPTING TIPS, BRING LUBE AND KNEEL FOR POKES-=-=***"
Who in the fuck kneels for a service in a roleplaying situation?
And btw blaming the lack of players on cdv IS justified because it was hard enough to find the game on shelves in the first place, now it's pretty much gone, and there was piss for advertising. Even look at beta, that was some of the highest population the game has ever seen, and that was with the cruel old ways of the big bad pvpers. I love how you blame the low pop count on this supposed mass exodus of players who can't handle getting whacked a few times in the sewers.
Bottom line is, the game was meant for people like me, the majority of people in this thread speaks for itself. Even the scene whores who are "valued members" of the community (i wont even bother with names because ill probably get banned again) don't RP at all.
As for shit talking, I along with my clan personally thrive off it, I'll get into this later when I can upload a pic to my retarded host to show an example.
KRIMINAL99
22-10-03, 01:05
Originally posted by 5150
Recent threads have shown the futility in trying to get you to see a game beyond PvP - you claim facts but I'm not seeing any - I see game changes that support my position (which you want changed back) which is the reality here, I see NeMa, Neocronical, Epic and live runs that show a developer creating a game world where more happens than blowing people away, in short I do not see anything that makes me feel I'm in the wrong game with my opinion.
I could tell you my friends whos mains were Morg Northrang, Ezzeckell and Vladvon left the game, but the names wont mean anything to you, they were in my clan and none of them PvP'ed - why you feel knowing these 3 names is important confounds me but there you go.
I see a game in need of players yet not getting any, and I see a playerbase asking why. NC will never appeal to the FPS crowd because its intrinsically unfair PvP, and never to the RP crowd because the PvP system is forced on the player. Nor the achiever/powergamer because the missions are trivial and apparently the static content quickly consumed, or the casual gamer because of the first 2 issues combined.
In short I see a game that has gone from a true MMORPG (with a FPS PvP system) to a PvP game devoid of RP content because of an outspoken PvP community that just cant see any other way and personally I think this has to change if the overall situation is to change
Of this PvP community I see people unable to hold a civil, reasoned and rational discussion thus resorting to flaming and childish behavior (I'm not directing this at anyone specifically we all know who fits here and who doesnt) and one unable to tolorate let alone accomodate anyone with a differing viewpoint. In short I see selfish people who can only seem to be happy/having fun at someone elses expense (while simultaneously trivialising the impact of this behaviour for the victom)
Of course this is all my opinion, and notwithstanding the facts that I have presented (NeMa, Neocronical etc) you are free to disagree (and I have no doubt you will) and on the facts presented I suspect you will interperate those as Marx has and pass them off as a bored and underworked developer who writes patch notes as huge full colour PDF documents and adds missions that have nothing at all to do with PvP just to see how anoyed the players get, and underworked and bored gms giving missions to groups of players because theres nothing else to do. I see a large background story/history possibly the biggest I've ever seen for an online game, apparently only there to justify why x kills y all the time (when Planetsides couple of paragraphs would probably have done the job just as well). In short I see loads of evidence that the developer intended this game to be far more than just PvP on a plate
First off here is one link to a poll taken about PVP in the game before the quickbelt changes where 75 % of the people say newbie greifing is not a problem. While people would have no reason to say that it wasn't a problem if it really bothered them, they would have a reason to say it was a problem and continue to play the game or even like that there is such chaos - they could just be venting their frusteration of that moment.
Poll (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35937&highlight=Welcome+Neocron+based)
About your friends- It should be obvious to you why your friends names are important. You claim that many people have left due to player griefing- Yet you are still here yourself. Our claim is that while people vent out of frustration when they are pked, and maybe even threaten to leave, they are actually challenged by the situation and more inclined to stay. I personally have seen this time and time again from players new to the game, and those players usually go on pking sprees themselves long before getting bored and quitting Neocron. And since you have not left you are definitely not a counterexample. And I certainly wouldn't put it past you to make up imaginary friends to attempt to validate your argument (also a more likely reason why your friends names wouldnt mean anything to me, since I would have seen them around otherwise)
Neocron appeals to me and I am in all of those categories. It obviously has appealed to many people in the past (or the game would always have been empty) and they would have had to have been in one of those categories as well.
BTW Neocron is definitely not a PVP based game anymore.. It was designed to be and started out that way (Back when it was more popular) and now it really is more like other MMORPGS, albeit with worse graphics. Before PVP was important to your characters wealth in the game, now it is for the most part just a way to compare your wealth and level and skill to others. This is what PVP is in most games like AO, except AO is even worse because you have little control over combat.
5150, very simply, despite what anyone thinks, there is a right and a wrong about the way things work. People may have different opinions, but they can't both be true. About this discussion - How long do you expect these people to sit and listen to you hypocrytically accusing them of manipulating facts while you do what you claim others are? To listen to you complain about too much flaming while you flame roleplaying PKER's?
The problem is 5150 you don't LISTEN. PVP and Roleplaying are not mutually exclusive. Roleplaying means to play a role, nothing else. Unless you are playing a game where you go to class or work everyday and do the same dang thing then you are roleplaying to some degree. I just explained to you that the deeper the role is, the better the PVP experience and why. Maybe KK knew this and thats why they decided on a PVP based and Roleplaying game?
You do not dispute the things other people say which directly contradict your arguments. You just ignore them and continue rambling with assumption that everything you have said is right. This is why people get irritated 5150.
Originally posted by Scikar
Technically the old rules aren't any better. What we need is:
Any item can drop, whether it's in your QB, your processor, or your inventory. The exceptions are items under a certain TL (my first thought is TL20, but this could probably use some tweaking), and stuff like apartment keys, clan keys, vehicle keys and tools.
Items drop into a QB which is not locked. When an item is taken from a QB, an ingame mail is sent to the owner of the QB saying who took it and what the item was. This info is also available if you click on the empty belt.
No items drop in hunting zones, and no items drop in warzones, however high level caves e.g. Chaos caves become anarchy zones. Hunting zones are restricted to TH energy cores, storage areas, cellars and sewers.
Your SL does not affect the items you drop.
CopBots would of course still kill people with low SL.
If we had changes like this implemented, we wouldn't really need to have Neptune because it wouldn't really bring much. It's something like this that we really want, no safezones and no LE would just be a bonus.
Also 5150 you are just as guilty of rehashing the same argument and failing to respond to points as Marx is.
This is waaaaaaaaaay OT but how did you add bulletpoints?
KRIMINAL99
22-10-03, 06:50
Originally posted by Scikar
Technically the old rules aren't any better. What we need is:
Any item can drop, whether it's in your QB, your processor, or your inventory. The exceptions are items under a certain TL (my first thought is TL20, but this could probably use some tweaking), and stuff like apartment keys, clan keys, vehicle keys and tools.
Items drop into a QB which is not locked. When an item is taken from a QB, an ingame mail is sent to the owner of the QB saying who took it and what the item was. This info is also available if you click on the empty belt.
No items drop in hunting zones, and no items drop in warzones, however high level caves e.g. Chaos caves become anarchy zones. Hunting zones are restricted to TH energy cores, storage areas, cellars and sewers.
Your SL does not affect the items you drop.
CopBots would of course still kill people with low SL.
If we had changes like this implemented, we wouldn't really need to have Neptune because it wouldn't really bring much. It's something like this that we really want, no safezones and no LE would just be a bonus.
Also 5150 you are just as guilty of rehashing the same argument and failing to respond to points as Marx is.
I love your ideas there man. I still think Neptune would be important though. If there was a server with no safe zones (and preferably no copbots) everyone would have to trade in their faction headquarters or in a friendly faction headquarters. Then the headquarters could be raided to slow them down. Although the server would need lots more people for that. - Also people would have to choose between having more factions tradeskillers to use and having more people to kill as enemies.
Like I said, it would be cool to have a server with no safezones or LEs (I think there should still be CopBots, though I would also like to still be able to sneak around the city). But I would be happy enough with those drop rules alone.
To make bullet points, you type, using square brackets, {list}, then a {*} wherever you want a bullet point, and a {/list} at the end. You can also type {list=A} for A, B, C points and {list=1} for 1., 2., 3. points.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
First off here is one link to a poll taken about PVP in the game before the quickbelt changes where 75 % of the people say newbie greifing is not a problem. While people would have no reason to say that it wasn't a problem if it really bothered them, they would have a reason to say it was a problem and continue to play the game or even like that there is such chaos - they could just be venting their frusteration of that moment.
Poll (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=35937&highlight=Welcome+Neocron+based)
About your friends- It should be obvious to you why your friends names are important. You claim that many people have left due to player griefing- Yet you are still here yourself. Our claim is that while people vent out of frustration when they are pked, and maybe even threaten to leave, they are actually challenged by the situation and more inclined to stay. I personally have seen this time and time again from players new to the game, and those players usually go on pking sprees themselves long before getting bored and quitting Neocron. And since you have not left you are definitely not a counterexample. And I certainly wouldn't put it past you to make up imaginary friends to attempt to validate your argument (also a more likely reason why your friends names wouldnt mean anything to me, since I would have seen them around otherwise)
Neocron appeals to me and I am in all of those categories. It obviously has appealed to many people in the past (or the game would always have been empty) and they would have had to have been in one of those categories as well.
BTW Neocron is definitely not a PVP based game anymore.. It was designed to be and started out that way (Back when it was more popular) and now it really is more like other MMORPGS, albeit with worse graphics. Before PVP was important to your characters wealth in the game, now it is for the most part just a way to compare your wealth and level and skill to others. This is what PVP is in most games like AO, except AO is even worse because you have little control over combat.
5150, very simply, despite what anyone thinks, there is a right and a wrong about the way things work. People may have different opinions, but they can't both be true. About this discussion - How long do you expect these people to sit and listen to you hypocrytically accusing them of manipulating facts while you do what you claim others are? To listen to you complain about too much flaming while you flame roleplaying PKER's?
The problem is 5150 you don't LISTEN. PVP and Roleplaying are not mutually exclusive. Roleplaying means to play a role, nothing else. Unless you are playing a game where you go to class or work everyday and do the same dang thing then you are roleplaying to some degree. I just explained to you that the deeper the role is, the better the PVP experience and why. Maybe KK knew this and thats why they decided on a PVP based and Roleplaying game?
You do not dispute the things other people say which directly contradict your arguments. You just ignore them and continue rambling with assumption that everything you have said is right. This is why people get irritated 5150.
Sigh - here we go again
Unless the poll was voted on by the entire playerbase it is only a reflection of the views of the forum community. The forum community != the NC playerbase - not in this game, not in any other game. The result should be viewed bearing that in mind
So I made those friends up? Brilliant didnt see that one coming (and now you understand why I knew giving you the names was pointless - you were going to find someway, anyway to discredit them. Thats 3 people, and you never heard of them, how many other people do you think that you never heard of have left the game? If they werent interested in PvP then you probably wont have heard of them.....
I do not find enagaging in unrestricted PvP challenging. I find it futile and a path to unhappy game time one way or the other - I have a choice between powerlevelling to attempt some kind of parity (futile due to my playtime) and accept that I am then not doing what I want to do in the game, or I can join a clan which while a deterant to some is likely to bring even more PvP from others. I therefore choose not to be challenged, I choose the LE chip and I will excersize my right to complain about its restictions which I see as unjustified (and I will also tell you _why_ I do not engage in PvP in NC)
How is this game not PvP based anymore - just because the game has removed (in your and many others opinion) the reasons to PvP that doesnt mean the game isnt still PvP base (to use your own PvP is RP example surely the fact that they are your enemies is enough reason to PvP?). So you essentially admit that you were never fighting for your factions cause or to hamper your opponents. You were fighting to further your characters material worth and setback the progress of other players (and these are 2 very different things) RP indeed.......
There is rarely right and wrong there is usually only opinion. In this example the only 'right' is what KK decide to do because they are the only ones who can actually make changes to how this all works. You and I can debate this forever but unless KK actually do something neither one of us will be vindicated (and its quite possible that neither of us would be either)
I'm listening but I'm just not hearing anything conclusive. I'm hearing polls from select elements of the playerbase (the forum community) and I'm seeing a vocal group whos not happy with where the game is at, I'm seeing talk of RP from some but who just dont deliver when it comes to the crunch and I'm seeing complete anti-RP from the same community. On the other hand I'm seeing a developer who changed the game from they way you liked it to the way it is now, _I_ see a reason for this but you (not you personally) cannot, I also dont see it being changed back despite your claims about the composition of the current playerbase - in short I dont see much to support your position, but I see plenty to support mine.
I never claimed that PvP and RP are mutually exclusive. I claimed that most PvP players dont, wont and are even anti-RP (some classic examples of that here) while I also see evidence of PvP players attempting to RP (Scikar is a good example) I dont see it being delivered for some reason or another. But I also dont see why RP must involve PvP (you seem to think they are mutually inclusive) I dont see whats so bad about opening the game up to a bigger playerbase by way of not forcing PvP on them or confining them to the current restrictions of the LE chip (and in trusth very little would need to change here) then you could make PvP as bloody as you cared because it really wouldnt make any difference to me
I do dispute direct contradictions - thats what most of this thread has been about - but while I'm providing developer based evidence/content that KK intended for this game to go beyond PvP I'm not seeing anything other than opinion that suggests otherwise
It may only be the forum population, but what is the real difference between the forum and the people in-game? The difference is that the people who play but don't go on the forum are for the most part the same assholes who sit around in Plaza all day, then kill a couple of noobs, and go back to plaza to DM them with shit.
The forum is not everyone in the community, but neither are the election polls. Yet those are still accurate. The difference, is of course that in election polls people are asked questions without having to actively take part in the poll, whereas in a poll here people are required to make an effort to be a part of it. IMO in a small community like this it means that it simply excludes, for the most part, the shit talkers, and the newbies.
The shit talkers have no right to take part in such a poll, and the newbies are not really qualified in my opinion to make an informed decision. That's why I think the PvP changes happened in the first place - in case you've forgotten, they came about from polls posted right here on these same forums.
The problem IMO was that that it was too soon after UK retail launch, and a lot of the people involved in the poll were relatively new players, myself included, who thought the game would be better with those changes made. In hindsight, now that I'm a more experienced player, I think the wrong decision was made, and I think a lot of other people think the same way, which is why there more people arguing in favour of pro-PvP changes than there are arguing against.
As you rightly say, ultimately the decision is KK's, but the community deserves to have a part in the decision, which is why these forums exist in the first place, and is exactly the reason why this thread exists. If some people can't be bothered to check the forum once in a while just to see if there are any major changes coming up that they might want to discuss then it's nobody's fault but their own if their view is not expressed. Thus for the purposes of discussion, the forum is the playerbase.
KRIMINAL99
23-10-03, 16:22
Originally posted by 5150
Sigh - here we go again
Unless the poll was voted on by the entire playerbase it is only a reflection of the views of the forum community. The forum community != the NC playerbase - not in this game, not in any other game. The result should be viewed bearing that in mind
So I made those friends up? Brilliant didnt see that one coming (and now you understand why I knew giving you the names was pointless - you were going to find someway, anyway to discredit them. Thats 3 people, and you never heard of them, how many other people do you think that you never heard of have left the game? If they werent interested in PvP then you probably wont have heard of them.....
I do not find enagaging in unrestricted PvP challenging. I find it futile and a path to unhappy game time one way or the other - I have a choice between powerlevelling to attempt some kind of parity (futile due to my playtime) and accept that I am then not doing what I want to do in the game, or I can join a clan which while a deterant to some is likely to bring even more PvP from others. I therefore choose not to be challenged, I choose the LE chip and I will excersize my right to complain about its restictions which I see as unjustified (and I will also tell you _why_ I do not engage in PvP in NC)
How is this game not PvP based anymore - just because the game has removed (in your and many others opinion) the reasons to PvP that doesnt mean the game isnt still PvP base (to use your own PvP is RP example surely the fact that they are your enemies is enough reason to PvP?). So you essentially admit that you were never fighting for your factions cause or to hamper your opponents. You were fighting to further your characters material worth and setback the progress of other players (and these are 2 very different things) RP indeed.......
There is rarely right and wrong there is usually only opinion. In this example the only 'right' is what KK decide to do because they are the only ones who can actually make changes to how this all works. You and I can debate this forever but unless KK actually do something neither one of us will be vindicated (and its quite possible that neither of us would be either)
I'm listening but I'm just not hearing anything conclusive. I'm hearing polls from select elements of the playerbase (the forum community) and I'm seeing a vocal group whos not happy with where the game is at, I'm seeing talk of RP from some but who just dont deliver when it comes to the crunch and I'm seeing complete anti-RP from the same community. On the other hand I'm seeing a developer who changed the game from they way you liked it to the way it is now, _I_ see a reason for this but you (not you personally) cannot, I also dont see it being changed back despite your claims about the composition of the current playerbase - in short I dont see much to support your position, but I see plenty to support mine.
I never claimed that PvP and RP are mutually exclusive. I claimed that most PvP players dont, wont and are even anti-RP (some classic examples of that here) while I also see evidence of PvP players attempting to RP (Scikar is a good example) I dont see it being delivered for some reason or another. But I also dont see why RP must involve PvP (you seem to think they are mutually inclusive) I dont see whats so bad about opening the game up to a bigger playerbase by way of not forcing PvP on them or confining them to the current restrictions of the LE chip (and in trusth very little would need to change here) then you could make PvP as bloody as you cared because it really wouldnt make any difference to me
I do dispute direct contradictions - thats what most of this thread has been about - but while I'm providing developer based evidence/content that KK intended for this game to go beyond PvP I'm not seeing anything other than opinion that suggests otherwise
BINGO. RIGHT in your face, you are wrong AND YOU TOTALLY IGNORE IT and go on rambling. This poll was taken in the middle of the time when pvp was so unrestricted. Your previous claim that EVERYONE on the forums right now who agrees PVP needs to be boosted doesn't represent the majority because the other players are enjoying the game can't possibly apply to that poll. Because that poll was taken while the pvpers would be busy playing the game and the new players who were slighted by pkers would be on the forums complaining. So if anything, the poll would be more slanted towards antipkers.
5150 You saw it coming cause you knew you were lying. You are the person who cant see what is right in front of you here, while you hysterically acuse everyone else of the same. I know there is a good chance that you are lying because I know a great deal about how people think. If you weren't lying about them you would immediately say their names are such and such, and there would be a chance I would have heard of them. Instead you thought to yourself ( I know im right or I know someone but dont remember their names, so Ill just make up some names and he can't possibly have heard of everyone who ever played the game so its a silly question anyway) The indicator that you are lying was the fact that you started out assaulting my asking for their names. And by the way I wasn't asking because I thought I would definitately have heard their names, I was asking because most people who say they will leave because of pvp come back in a week. It's not the type of thing that makes you not like the game, it just makes you frusterated and maybe need a break.
5150 Neocron is a MMO game- NOT a single player game. The single thing which makes a game fun longer than a month or two is player interaction- because while static computer content can be pegged so that you always know exactly what is going to happen and how to over come it in a short time, people can not.
In Neocron that player interaction revolves around pvp. It doesn't have the graphics, the emotes, as complicated rp items, or as complicated chat interfaces as other games which serve mroe as virtual chatrooms than video games (AO). There are much better games for someone like you. Obviously everyone else here has chosen this game for a different reason. If you choose to stay here because of the other limited types of player interaction, you need to recognize that you ARE in the minority.
No 5150 I wasn't consiously fighting to raise my players worth. I am talking about 2 different parts of the mind here. If you are not gaining in wealth like I was talking about before, the game is just boring and you quit, regardless of factions. Just like self proclaimed "roleplayers" decide to take roleplaying past the subconsious level that is inherent to playing any video game (although usually in contrived ways) , some players take the quest for wealth in a game past the level inherent to playing a video game. Both effects EVERYONE to some degree. Right now it is the wealth that is more lacking and more easily changed.
No 5150, just because KK does something doesn't mean it was right. If KK changes something and the game flops, obviously KK was wrong. There is ALWAYS a right and wrong answer to a question. That opinion bs was just made up to suit people who can never admit that they were wrong. If you are talking about morally right and wrong, I would say that no such thing really exists as something that matters- and that opinoins on such are worthless because they are formed from people's bias.
If that is what you see 5150, it is because you are blind. The majority here now wants it back, MANY players who are not part of the community now but would come back if PVP was restored want it back. They shouldn't have changed it to begin with because the players who asked for it originally where a very small minority in the sense that they were new players who would soon change their views to be similar to their opposers. And you are like one in a thousand that plays a PVP based MMORPG for its teamplay content. And while there may have been a reason to protect new players more, perhaps by removing LE limitations, what they did to PVP as collateral damage to solving the newbie pk problem was disastrous and WAS not their goal. You claim there was a reason for what they did to pvp, but KK themselves do not even know what it was because they didn't intend it to be like this.
Roleplaying is an inherent part to playing a video game. Roleplay is going to degrade when the game gets boring to people because they are going to search for other ways to get back the lost enjoyment. If I am playing a TT agent, and the missions are boring, PVP is not fun anymore cause of the drops and is not tied to my specific faction, etc etc then I am going to say screw it, just go and try to get whatever last bit of fun IS in the game (which for some means RPK spree) and then quit. What we are trying to do is make PVP at least fun again. Then to enhance roleplaying the next step would be to make it so you are more tied to your faction somehow. If you put a mouse in a maze, but dont put cheese at the end, he ain't going to run your maze. (roleplay metaphor) And the cheese isn't always what people say it is either.
I agree there is nothing wrong with removing LE restrictions. They haven't done it because they say Neocron is a PVP based game primarily and they want people to be weeded off of it. (I found a KK staff member quoting this, but he also said that they didn't like the excessive amount of rpk as in non faction related in the same quote)
To your last paragraph- Thats because nooone is arguing that Neocron is supposed to be ALL pvp like planetside or something.
I'm in 2 minds to reply to this but I'm going to against my better judgment....
Youre never going to get it Kriminal, so there no point trying to explain it to you. KK changed the game, they decided it was the right decision (maybe only at the time) to make, I'm afraid your arguing against them here not me
It was the wrong decision by the opinion of you, the vocal PvP community and the vocal forum community (which may be one and the same thing) according to the poll but even Scikar acknowledges that polls have to be taken for what they are - and that certainly isnt the absolute fact and truth.
All I'll say here is when was the last time you actually took the time to express you were happy with something (applies to anything not just NC)? People generally only express themselves when they are unhappy. Bad news travels faster than good etc etc. Short version you just dont know how many people are still here who do like the changes (in that it prevents powergamers from destrying all they have achieved)
I cant be lying because there is no right and wrong here - there is only opinion, it just suits you to believe I am lying (given the vocal opposition I have here what purpose would I have to lie? It be much easier to conceed your point or just not bother)
Youre not happy with the changes, the vocal forum community doesnt seem happy either, its possible that the majoritory of the player really arent happy (but the previous is not guarantee) - but that doesnt change the fact of how NC got here and why NC is still here - if the community really was that united dont you think KK would have done something by now?
_If_ KK subsequently change the game, take the LE out, impose bigger loses for death and at the same time fail to prevent ganking - I'll accept that this is the way KK intended the game and I'll leave - only at that point would you be 'right' but your victory would be hollow since we are talking about the 'here and now' not the 'what might be'
I look at the game as a whole and the effort put into the background and the ongoing story (all the 'fluff' if you will) and I see a game which is trying to be much more than PvP (and has tried from the outset) - you look at the game and only see the part of the game you are interested in, you try and rationalise the other elements as all there to support PvP because you just cant conceive that the developer intended a deeper, wider, bigger play experience accomodating lots of playstyles and you try and fit RP into your playstyle to help rationaise those changes.
We are at an impass (and always have been) you disagree with me and I disagree with you - we both believe we have evidence to substatiate our positions and neither of us is accepting that put forward by the other - there is nothing to gain here.
I would like to thank everyone who managed to keep this constructive and civil though. Its always interesting to see another persons point of view.
KRIMINAL99
24-10-03, 01:34
Originally posted by 5150
I'm in 2 minds to reply to this but I'm going to against my better judgment....
Youre never going to get it Kriminal, so there no point trying to explain it to you. KK changed the game, they decided it was the right decision (maybe only at the time) to make, I'm afraid your arguing against them here not me
It was the wrong decision by the opinion of you, the vocal PvP community and the vocal forum community (which may be one and the same thing) according to the poll but even Scikar acknowledges that polls have to be taken for what they are - and that certainly isnt the absolute fact and truth.
All I'll say here is when was the last time you actually took the time to express you were happy with something (applies to anything not just NC)? People generally only express themselves when they are unhappy. Bad news travels faster than good etc etc. Short version you just dont know how many people are still here who do like the changes (in that it prevents powergamers from destrying all they have achieved)
I cant be lying because there is no right and wrong here - there is only opinion, it just suits you to believe I am lying (given the vocal opposition I have here what purpose would I have to lie? It be much easier to conceed your point or just not bother)
Youre not happy with the changes, the vocal forum community doesnt seem happy either, its possible that the majoritory of the player really arent happy (but the previous is not guarantee) - but that doesnt change the fact of how NC got here and why NC is still here - if the community really was that united dont you think KK would have done something by now?
_If_ KK subsequently change the game, take the LE out, impose bigger loses for death and at the same time fail to prevent ganking - I'll accept that this is the way KK intended the game and I'll leave - only at that point would you be 'right' but your victory would be hollow since we are talking about the 'here and now' not the 'what might be'
I look at the game as a whole and the effort put into the background and the ongoing story (all the 'fluff' if you will) and I see a game which is trying to be much more than PvP (and has tried from the outset) - you look at the game and only see the part of the game you are interested in, you try and rationalise the other elements as all there to support PvP because you just cant conceive that the developer intended a deeper, wider, bigger play experience accomodating lots of playstyles and you try and fit RP into your playstyle to help rationaise those changes.
We are at an impass (and always have been) you disagree with me and I disagree with you - we both believe we have evidence to substatiate our positions and neither of us is accepting that put forward by the other - there is nothing to gain here.
I would like to thank everyone who managed to keep this constructive and civil though. Its always interesting to see another persons point of view.
5150 I know exactly what polls are worth, and I concede the point that people are more likely to post problems when they have a problem. I never argued with that. However, as I just said in my last post, this poll was taken in DECEMBER 2002. The soullight/quickbelt changes were made in JANUARY 2003. This poll was right during the time when the pk problems were supposedly the worst, and most of the PVP advocates were "enjoying the game" instead of forum browsing. The PVP advocates minus any of them that were too busy playing to forum browse were still the majority EVEN then.
No doubt there were plent of complaints on the forums then about PKing. However, they were single time complaints, usually made by people were that was their first or second post and had just started playing. Most likely, newbies who were unfamiliar with the game yet were testing to see how far they would get for demanding out of game retribution for in game PVP right after it happened. While newbies removing their LE before ready and being pked was a definite problem, there was never a legitimte reason to nerf PVP in the many ways it was. Nor did KK intend for this to happen, they did not know what the exact effects of their changes would be. They also did not later evaluate what the changes had caused.
The fact that nothing challenges powergamers achievements in this game is EXACTLY one of the main problems all of us are talking about. In a persistant multiplayer game there should ALWAYS be something challenging and forcing you to risk your position, wealth and achievements in the game. Or else the game is over because you have accomplished everything you possibly could.
You can not have an opinion that you know specific people that left, specifically because of PKing, and that they for absolute sure did leave and did not come back. Either they did, or they didnt. If you know of no such person for sure, and you say you do, then you are lying. It is not a matter of a opinion.
No, I don't think there is any rhyme or reason to what KK does in response to changes. They could very well change the game the first time just because of a few forum complaints and emails, and then later decide only to make changes based on their own analyzations. They could rely on their volunteer staff to relate information from the forums, players, and the community, and the volunteer staff could put their own slant on the input from the community and relate only what they believed the game should be like. A particular class that is overpowered, and everyone agrees is overpowered, and actually IS overpowered, might remain intact simply because MJS plays the game as a member of that class and doesn't want it nerfed.
I love how you choose to interpret all the changes we are suggesting. I personally do not have a problem with the LE. As far as "bigger penalties for death" I don't know what you are talking about. That would entail like xp loss. What we want is for players to be gambling on the outcome of PVP, and be rewarded for successful PVP. You speak as if PVP is always an automatic loss for you. Perhaps it is time for you to upgrade your internet connection? Btw what is your definition of ganking? Because almost noone is saying that actual new players should be a common target of pking.
5150 how many single player games do you play for months on end??? What one possible thing makes a game fun for more than a month? How about change, randomness, unpredictability, all things which come from other players. My point about Neocron being PVP based is that PVP is the most well developed theme in NEOCRON through which players interact. It has limited social and economic interaction. If you want a game for either of those, there are much better ones. For people like me, roleplaying simply means how much does a game draw you into it and make you feel like you are that person. Not how much do I try and pretend to be that person.
BTW The devs have said repeatedly that this is a PVP based game. Just because they add to the atmosphere and other types of player interaction doesn't suddenly turn it into a social interaction based game. And you might also want to be careful not to confuse what the volunteer staff interject into the game with what the original designs were.
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