Reduce specialisation?

[Judge]

Whoa... another nostalgia thread.

Basically who here would like to see the specialisation reduced?

I'm not sure how you could do it, but I long for the days when you could be using rifles and have some pistol as a side arm for close combat.... or have some droning to liven up a dull bit of leveling.

I think that it was 160 which changed specialisation... if not then apply which one it was to the first poll option.

So basically would you like to see specialisation reduced?

[boneybob]

Me and Drikie have been talking about this.

Dont you rember the days when you were a noob, dont you also rember that those were the moast fun (and diverse) times you ever had, wether you first char was a PE,spy,tank or monk.

Because of compleat and utter specialisation all skill on a charicter have to almost esencialy be toned into usualy 3 or 4 groups (er weaponlore, riflecombat, and high tech combat) and even then some one might say that your charicter isent as powerfullas it could be ( and to move all your high tech combat into rifle combat). This maximum specialisation KILLS the diversity of this wonderfull game! "more than people realise"

since when was the last time you experimented?, ppl who have been playing for a while will know that you CANNOT experiment within the world of NC and this is because you will destroyed (or driven to insanity).

BB

[Shadow Dancer]

I think specialization should definitely be rewarded though.

[Judge]

Yes it should be rewarded.... but not to the point we have now.... basically we have vey 2d characters who can only do one max two things, if you are a pistol PE/spy or a PPU who can implant/hack.

There should be rewards but they needn't be as necessary as they are now....

[boneybob]

This is precisly me point as well.

And yer, why do you think that pistol charicters are so appealing to experienced players? The answer is because then they dont have to put every lill bit of int on Wepon Lore , so they can do other things like a little to psi-use or hacking!

BB

[Lareolan]

A valid point. Overspecialization leads to stagnation. It promotes the idea of cookie cutter characters and makes the game overall more boring than it should be. Currently in Neocron you can only be:

A) As good as everyone else at 1 thing (This does not include skills, only stats)

B) Absolutely horrible at everything. (If you spend any points in something other than your specialization, you become totally useless)

That is kind of sad really.

[Dazist]

Less specialization would be good, more variety to chars. It would be great for every class got at least two or three things they could do. I remember having rifle tank in betas. phosphor shotgun ruled!
Could someone tell what exactly did this infamous patch 160 do?

edit: after doing some searching I found patch 160 notes:
http://www.neocrononline.com/article.php?story=2002112211594396

[Judge]

So basically the specialisation that was pre-160 was a mistake:


* Another change concerning specialisation into certain roles is the correction of a mistake in the calculation of the use restrictions. This leads to an increase of the subskill-userestrictions for weapons around TL 75. I.e. a Fusion Cannon will require 102 in Heavy Combat instead of the current 88. With the LoM pills mentioned above, it will be possible to redistribute the skill points, which should lead to the desired specialisation.

But the actual weapon modificator change was deliberate:


With the current weapon modificators ("Show Info"), the maximum was reached pretty quickly (i.e. 107% for Damage and Aiming), especially if the weapon was of good quality. Additionally, the effects of the weapon skill on the modificators was smaller the higher the closer you got to the maximum of the mods. To encourage specialization, the modificators were changed so that they can now go above 107%. Additionally, the modificator values (except damage) can now also go into the negative. This means that with a very bad weapon and a very bad skill, the weapon will be pretty much useless because of the poor aiming. With the new value areas, there should be benefits for having a higher skill than the weapon requires, the weapon should be more precise and have more range. However this necessarily implies that the weapons will be weaker at minimum skill level, compared to pre-patch. In return you can go above the current maximum of 107% with more skillpoints than required (depending on weapon quality of course).

Thats very interesting.... so a jump from 107% to 178% and 267%. Wow..... that is alot.

[Genty]

Well, I dunno about you guys but I can do quite a fair few things.

With buffs and imps I can have the following: -

110 Hacking
85 Cst
85 Res
141 Psi use

and I still have lots of int levels to go (which I will be investing into psi use which will get me up to 160 ish when fully capped)

Along with those INT based skills I can now drive all but 1 vehicle (heavy combat trike) and still have enough agility to be just as fast if not faster than others.

I use my Research and Construction for my Level 1 & 2 implant business so I can build and research all I need. As far as I am concerned, I can do lot and lots and still not be overly gimped. (I could even dump my SS and Hawkins chip and shove in a psi def 2 and something else and improve myself in Op wars if I REALLY wanted.

Implants and buffs = the key to diversity.

[Oath]

Originally posted by Genty
Well, I dunno about you guys but I can do quite a fair few things.

With buffs and imps I can have the following: -

110 Hacking
85 Cst
85 Res
141 Psi use

and I still have lots of int levels to go (which I will be investing into psi use which will get me up to 160 ish when fully capped)

Along with those INT based skills I can now drive all but 1 vehicle (heavy combat trike) and still have enough agility to be just as fast if not faster than others.

I use my Research and Construction for my Level 1 & 2 implant business so I can build and research all I need. As far as I am concerned, I can do lot and lots and still not be overly gimped. (I could even dump my SS and Hawkins chip and shove in a psi def 2 and something else and improve myself in Op wars if I REALLY wanted.

Implants and buffs = the key to diversity.

85 construction...............85 research.
:confused: :confused:

you cant make decent things, and you cant research your own rares, with or without buffs.

So again with those to skills some sort of specialization is needed.

AS for Psi use, depends wether your apu or ppu, ppu can get away with having 160, but apu requires a little more.

[Genty]

Originally posted by Oath
85 construction...............85 research.
:confused: :confused:

you cant make decent things, and you cant research your own rares, with or without buffs.

So again with those to skills some sort of specialization is needed.

AS for Psi use, depends wether your apu or ppu, ppu can get away with having 160, but apu requires a little more.

Yes...but i don't build weapons, as i said, I do a level 1 & 2 implant business, they all come out the same quality whatever, so for what I need, 85 res/cst is more than enough. I don't NEED to research rares, if I really wanted to I could go to my clans lab...then blam, i have 135 research.

I never claimed that I could do everything, but I can do enough things to keep me happy and in my book, thats all that matters.

[Oath]

Originally posted by Genty
Yes...but i don't build weapons, as i said, I do a level 1 & 2 implant business, they all come out the same quality whatever, so for what I need, 85 res/cst is more than enough. I don't NEED to research rares, if I really wanted to I could go to my clans lab...then blam, i have 135 research.

I never claimed that I could do everything, but I can do enough things to keep me happy and in my book, thats all that matters.

So........what your saying is, that your NON specialization has made you more reliant on others?

what happens when your clan lose the lab?

And i agree, as long as your happy, that is most important.

[icarium]

Originally posted by Genty
Well, I dunno about you guys but I can do quite a fair few things.

With buffs and imps I can have the following: -

110 Hacking
85 Cst
85 Res
141 Psi use

and I still have lots of int levels to go (which I will be investing into psi use which will get me up to 160 ish when fully capped)

Along with those INT based skills I can now drive all but 1 vehicle (heavy combat trike) and still have enough agility to be just as fast if not faster than others.

I use my Research and Construction for my Level 1 & 2 implant business so I can build and research all I need. As far as I am concerned, I can do lot and lots and still not be overly gimped. (I could even dump my SS and Hawkins chip and shove in a psi def 2 and something else and improve myself in Op wars if I REALLY wanted.

Implants and buffs = the key to diversity.

you mention one rare and one UBER rare implant in that post. most people will not MC5 chips, and frankly arent ever likely too.

specialisation sucks, feels like they are trying to make it planetside. all the focus on op combat and you cant compete if you dont have a rare (which they made harder to get) or you arent high level (which with gr rules they made it harder to get) seems a bit daft to me. if they do want the game to be combat focused, boost normal weapons, make rares rare but not ESSENTIAL for combat (blacksunn is just fine imo its high tl) and maybe give us some other stuff, allow us to slot armour and add our own boosts and resists with modules. rare armour would be cool, rare spines, rare eye imps etc etc. also they made it so you couldnt wear another classes PA, why? it would have been FUN to try and make a tank who could use pe pa or a pe in a gimp suit.

[KRIMINAL99]

No way man... I like weapon specialization. But for the love of got if someone chooses to forsake all tradeskills for better combat abilities they should have the ability to capitalize on those skills. Unlock qbs...

[Judge]

But wouldn't it free up a stagnating game? Everyone knows what you will be using for PvP, this would encourage less cookie cutter setups and would provide a massive amount og diversity in the game.

Its all very well saying that the classes are meant to work together as a team, but with the server counts as they are that is no easy feat for quite alot of people. Which is why they played Hybrids and now play PEs, as they are the most self reliant people.

[Mirco]

I`m all for reducing specialisation. I know its lame to use a rl example, but I can drive, shoot a rifle and even also shoot a pistol. Neocron feels a little silly in this respect.

The problems are the weapons. They have too similar uses.
If you ask me rifle/pistol or heavy combat skills with willpower should affect damage in much smaller degree, but improve aiming in a greater degree.

About weapons beeing to similar. The result is that you get a huge furball when a fight brakes with a diameter of 20 meters. Using range is not required or rewarded at all(unless for spies who gets to live). Take the tanks cannon. It really should be useless when a target gets as close as 15-20 meters. Cannons should own at long range. A tank that gets an enemy closer than this and only have H-C should be fubar. The tanks
solution to this problem should be to equip a melee weapon.
Same with spies and pes only there we are talking pistols/melee(perhaps for pe`s) and rifles.


As a spy in nc today you have to specialize your weapons skill, but you can still have 2 tradeskills and do well with them. I think it should be the other way around. That tradeskills should require
specialisation and skills like weapons/driving should be given more freedom.

Giving the weapons more specialised uses with range and handling in mind and giving players the possibility to use more different weapons types can only improve nc`s combat and tactical depth in my opinion that is.

[QuantumDelta]

True, Judge.

The reason why those two changes did so much, is basically upping the reqs 15ish % made the weapon lower damage at the same PC/RC/HC/etc as you know, but also, they added a great deal of damage to all weapons that patch, the % damage increase didn't just add a requirement for 71% extra specialisation it gave a 71% damage increase to anyone overspeccing.

Apart from the 15% increase at the time, KK Didn't actually change the specialisation level within the game, they just changed it so that someone who actually WAS Specialising would get more of a bonus (something which people were complaining about IIRC).

Heh, I did like my droner/rifle/pistol/melee PE ...for all the time he lasted :p
At the same time as wanting some specialisation gone, I do want specialisation to be quite well rewarded... :|

[Duder]

I dont like to unerf the specialisation, it would make the game less linear and less cookie cutter, and i dont like the idea of not knowing what the person might be able to do in a fight for example.


I like being able to do only one thing, it makes the game fun in only a few months before you find out theres nothing else to do.





meh

[Judge]

lol duder... I can never tell whether you are being sarcastic or not :p

[Futureman]

Right with you there Judge,

I loved the Old School NC too. The choice now is be as good as everyone else at one thing, or get completely owned by everyone. There should be strength in diversity, and if you are clever enough to get a good setup to fit your playstyle, then you should be rewarded for it. If it were up to me, i would think that we should go back to pre 160 days. But i would be happy if every weapon type was just as useful as the next. For example. Tanks and APUs have to be the most cookie-cutter class in the game. If you are a tank, is there any weapon other than the CS and Speedgat to use? Why even bother outside of leveling.

In my opinion that's what makes people leave the game. Neocron is an extremely cool game, but eventually you get bored of it, because at some point you really do all you wanted to do. Giving people other things to do is the only way to keep them from leaving, because you can only play a game for so long. Pretty simple if you ask me. You play till it bores you, then you leave. Things like DoY are interesting new things, and that will entertain people for a while, but if you could diversify the entire game, and make weapons combinations just as survivable as cookiecutters, then i'll play. Hell, just give them a CHANCE.

I can see the reason why KK didn't want rifle tanks running around everywhere though, because who would play a combat spy if you can cap a PE with a tank? PEs would actually be a much cooler class to play then, IMO.

Anyway, if they gave us the option to play on a specialized server and a diversified server, then i'd choose the diversified.

Honestly, i don't think that KK will ever make it like that again, though. They have no reason too. When DoY comes out, there will be enough people to keep the game going, and they won't need to keep new players from getting bored. Then maybe after a year after they all get bored and go to some other MMORPG, its time for Neocron II or Tokio II or whatever.

[*ph33r*]

You have my full support Judge! I'm pretty tired of specialisation now, you can't be unique with your set-ups at all, you have to throw so many points into a skill to be efficent and everyone is litterally the same.

Make this game fun again KK 8|

[Scikar]

Keep specialisation in to the point where you can still put points in something else. Tanks needing every point of STR into H-C to cap CS RoF and get high aim is just stupid. Spies as an example should be able to cap either Disruptor or RoLH or Punisher and then have the option of using another weapon type, or vehicles, or a dex tradeskill, and still have decent agility. Tanks should have plenty of transport and resist force while still capping a DB. PEs should be the ones that have to specialise in individual skills. So they won't have as many options as spies in terms of dex skills, and they won't have as much freedom in terms of strength as a tank, but they should still be able to cap rifles/pistols and keep some agility, by sacrificing vhc and tradeskilling.

[Bengalmin]

removing the step change in capability of rares and non-rares would be a start. this would alow people to spec for a slightly lower TL weapon without loosing loads of combat effectiveness. freeing up points to spend elsewhere

I think also that once you have met the requirements of a weapon there should be a rapid drop off in the additional benifit of skilling higher. so that say, someone with 100 R-C would do only 10% less damage than say someone with 150. some people might want that 10% but most could live without it.

[SypH]

Specialization is nice and all, but christ almighty its dull as buggery. I started a new spy after killing my APU that I used since I started NC (It was painful doing it but playing a monkey just got soooo boring). My spy drones, repairs,recycles, constructs, resses and uses rifles. He's still very much a noob (I dont level very quickly...I like to take my time) but at least although I may be gimped for my lvl I can build the rifles and drones I can use, I can always ress after I make more so I have a good supply, I can repair them if they get damaged, and cause Im a poor nublet I dont have to worry about buying ammo.

I will never be the most powerful spy, unless I lom alot of that away and specialise, but to be honest, having such a diverse character is alot more fun. Eventually when i want to make him a combat character, I will lom off what I can and hopefully become the stealth sniper spy that I'm aiming for.


Once I achieve that, I'll start all over again with a PE who doesnt go for the cookie cutter setup.

[greendonkeyuk]

Originally posted by SypH
Specialization is nice and all, but christ almighty its dull as buggery. I started a new spy after killing my APU that I used since I started NC (It was painful doing it but playing a monkey just got soooo boring). My spy drones, repairs,recycles, constructs, resses and uses rifles. He's still very much a noob (I dont level very quickly...I like to take my time) but at least although I may be gimped for my lvl I can build the rifles and drones I can use, I can always ress after I make more so I have a good supply, I can repair them if they get damaged, and cause Im a poor nublet I dont have to worry about buying ammo.


You wanna post some values on that coz im dyin to hear em.

Specialisation sucks royally imo. I joined jus before patch 160 came about, never really got to experience nc fully pre-160 as wasnt here long enough but anything that makes diversity gets a massive thumbs up from me.

[Judge]

One of the main gripes that people have with specialisation is how it forces people into cookie cutter setups for PvP, which is what the majority of people want to do. Sure there are a few people who prefer to just relax, level and have a slightly gimped character who can do multiple things, but unless you have your LE in then you are going to run into combat at some point in the game. If you want to win that combat then you have to be cookie cutter and not gimped. Oh and have a rare... but thats another topic altogether :P

[Mr Friendly]

0man :lol: everyone that wants it lowered just wants to be able to get the bonus & be able to put the extra points somewhere else.......dis would make everyone uber.....so...no

[SypH]

Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
You wanna post some values on that coz im dyin to hear em.

Specialisation sucks royally imo. I joined jus before patch 160 came about, never really got to experience nc fully pre-160 as wasnt here long enough but anything that makes diversity gets a massive thumbs up from me. Sure. When I'm next on I'll take a note of his stats and post them here. Like I said he is very gimped, but I dont care since it offers me a bit more variety in things to do other than hunt, kill (or get killed), clone more ammo, go get poked when I die and get my stuff repaired. I sat throught that with my Monk and quite frankly it sucked major ass. It wouldnve taken forever to use LOMs to change him around so I killed him and started afresh.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Mr Friendly
0man :lol: everyone that wants it lowered just wants to be able to get the bonus & be able to put the extra points somewhere else.......dis would make everyone uber.....so...no

Ahahahaha you are taking such a narrow view of things its incredible. You think that everyone who votes this way is just wants the "bonus"? What fucking bonus? Everyone would still be at the same level they would just be able to do more than one thing. You just have to look at plutos fucking population to see what I mean.... the whole premise of that server is that you can only have one character.... why shouldn't characters be able to do more than one damn thing?

Also if you look to cyberpunk literature you will notice that no-one, when offered a pistol says "Oh no, I'm not able to use that I can only use rifles" I mean wtf, how bloody hard is it to use a damn pistol. If you had actually read the damn thread then you would notice that not everyone wants to be uber due to lesser specialisation. I have no remorse in admitting that I'm pretty shite at PvP, I don't give a damn. All I want is for Neocron to get better and from my point of view i can see this as one of many ways in which neocron could get better.

Admittionally it would ive more use to mid and low level characters, as thiey could possibly use weapons at the same level as high level player and might be able to partace in combat with them.... they will probably not win as the high level player has obviously got more health and better resists, but they could at least have a fighting chance to get away in the least. The higher level palyer would also be able to use other weapons, which he could use in his advantage in the fight, so it would still balance out.

Don't just lump everyone in the same catagory.

[Dribble Joy]

GAH!!! I wrote a really long and cool post and fucking window got closed... fucking popups.
Anyway.
People would use the 'extra points' to over over spec, unless the cap level was REALLY brought down.
Prehaps put the capp values for different stats at the same level, so over specing is point less?

[Judge]

Dribble.... there are no "extra points"

The whole idea of reducing specialisation is to reduce the weapon cap, from like 178% down to whatever. Thus overspeccing would be pointless.

[Dribble Joy]

I'd prefer the caps to be at the same as they are now... but easier to reach. Hence 'extra points'