View Full Version : Toning down Monks by adding to PEs and Spies
So, after this being brought up in another thread (and being
discussed to some extent ingame on occasion) I thought id put
this idea up. The idea is to move some of the debuffing power
from APU monks to PEs and Spies, thus giving them a big role in
OP wars without nerfing anyone. This inturn would make PPUs
easier to take down due to the fact that you would no longer
need a APU to do it.
First the debuff spells of the APUs would need a slight change, to
be exact they should only remove the targets shelter, NOT the
deflector. Then a new tool should be added for the PEs and
Spies, which would be used to remove the deflector of the target.
The tool would be very short range just like a implanting tool, and
used similarly. It would probably be based mainly on T-C, Int and
Dex. Either the tool would supress the targets deflector for a
short period of time, this way there would be several tech levels
of the tool, the lowest being for PEs and the higher being for
Spies, the problem with this version is that it cannot be recast
during the supression period and that might be overpowered. Or
the tool might completely remove the targets deflector thus
allowing for recast but making the PEs and the Spies tools
equally good. To balance it it could have a high Int requirement
(70ish?) so that only PEs drug (destrosol forte) or implant heavily
for Int (Smart Cyber-Eye or SA) could use it.
In conclusion: Make the antibuff spell remove only the targets
shelter, make a tech tool for Spies and PEs that removes the
targets deflector. The goal is to nerf PPUs without actually nerfing
them, and to give Spies and PEs a use in OP wars and other
battles where PPUs are involved.
Cruzbroker
18-10-03, 00:05
Naw, I just though this: PPU defl/shelt shit when cast on others wouldn't be so effective when they are self cast (and if apu needs some extra on this one, then every apu point would decrease the effect by 0.000001 percent)... And make para like fire/poison spells..
Or maybe give it a high "high tech" requirement so that PEs and spies wouldnt be able to just use it with their current setups. They would have to properly spec to use them. I like the idea but this brings up the problem of "anti-buff spam." If tools like this were released into the game I like the idea of them causing SI to use them. Sort of like, its such a powerful tool it drains your enegy to use them. Yah I like that.
I don't feel this is the best way to solve the problem (making monks hybrid and ballancing them is)
BUT
If KK refuses to use my solution, I would accept your idea in a heartbeat.
I dunno Rade (SEX btw :p ) a device like that, could be used on *any* class, so your PE, could suddenly find a PE running upto you, whacking you with Anti Deflector, then blasting away with a Pain Easer/Lib before you have time to rebuff = dead Rade (who I then get to sex, rawr :D - well, ok dead Rade if it isnt me running at you trying to shoot you :angel: ). That would make a two team Spy/PE combo pretty damn hard to beat, even more so with a PPU in the background...
Parashock...
Remove Deflector...
Pierce Spam!!!11
Mind you, possible solution to Paraspam - Make it like stealth, when you use it, it cant be used again for 5-10 seconds (blacked out) but you can still use heal/shelter etc.. :p
Originally posted by Rade
The idea is to move some of the debuffing power
from APU monks to PEs and Spies, thus giving them a big role in
OP wars without nerfing anyone.
ermmm, why not Tanks too?
stupid idea.
how can a non-proficiant PSI class debuff a PSI based Pure monk?
make no sense.
and pures need to be kept.
ghandisfury
18-10-03, 01:17
Not only no, but hell no......give spies and PE *another* reason to come to OP battles. If this were implemented, two PEs would be able to take down a good PPU=bullshit.
NO NO NO and more NO!!
either does not being able to steal someones gun when you just killed them omni :/
anyway, i always agree with you rade :)
I like the idea, but if that happens Tank AoE will need a bit of a boost to balance things a smidge (that last thing I want to see is "nerf spys!!!!!oneoneoneoneONOZ!!")
I think Rade does have a point about PPU's, they are over defensive, in some cases, requiring lots of people to kill them. Recently, Rade and I started playing with a PPU, me using Pain Easer, Rade using that horrible twirly pistol thingy, yuck. PPU survived, and was considerably lower rank than both (/40 odd). For a /4* to walk away from a /6* and /7* without a scratch, thats wrong. A /6* - /7* PPU, sure let it require 4 or 5 people to take it down, a low ranker though... no :p
Shadow Dancer
18-10-03, 03:01
Originally posted by Rade
Either the tool would supress the targets deflector for a
short period of time, this way there would be several tech levels
of the tool, the lowest being for PEs and the higher being for
Spies, the problem with this version is that it cannot be recast
during the supression period and that might be overpowered.
You're right, might be overpowered. How about making it rof based?
Like the highest versions have a higher RoF.
Originally posted by Rade
To balance it it could have a high Int requirement
(70ish?) so that only PEs drug (destrosol forte) or implant heavily
for Int (Smart Cyber-Eye or SA) could use it.
It should be like stealth, in other words pes shouldn't have to cut off their limbs just to use it.
Originally posted by Rade
In conclusion: Make the antibuff spell remove only the targets
shelter, make a tech tool for Spies and PEs that removes the
targets deflector. The goal is to nerf PPUs without actually nerfing
them, and to give Spies and PEs a use in OP wars and other
battles where PPUs are involved.
I agree. It would make them needed, and I don't think it would hit PPUs too hard. Of course PPUs wouldn't want this, because most of them are as rigid as a rock.
Originally posted by Lexxuk
I dunno Rade (SEX btw :p ) a device like that, could be used on *any* class, so your PE, could suddenly find a PE running upto you, whacking you with Anti Deflector, then blasting away with a Pain Easer/Lib before you have time to rebuff
That won't happen if the RoF is adequetly adjusted. I rarely ever used anti shelter against PEs, for obvious reasons.......
Originally posted by Spoon
ermmm, why not Tanks too?
Tanks should get a role in combat, but it should be something else. IMO they should be the kings of AOE and their AOE should be drastically improved.
No i don't like it.
Spies/PEs already play an important role in OP wars; hacking and the only thing that should be able to take down a PPU is a big team or an APU.
Originally posted by Mankind
No i don't like it.
Spies/PEs already play an important role in OP wars; hacking and the only thing that should be able to take down a PPU is a big team or an APU.
Hacking is hardly unique to PEs and Spies, just as many monks
do it. Its not a important ruled played by PEs or Spies exclusively,
which is what is needed.
I think the idea is worth a serius look. Duno about the PE thing, but Spies are suposed to be smart and use tech tools to fight. I think a Spy with an antibuff or simular tools, stealthing around a battle, would add more stratagy to battles. An bring back the other chars to the battle field.
It's not like the PPU would have no defence against it. They already have the tools to seriusly ruin a stealthers day.
OH yeh a qwik edit.
There is absulutly no need for a spy to be in an OP war atm. Monks can hack with no problems at all.
Originally posted by Rade
Hacking is hardly unique to PEs and Spies, just as many monks
do it. Its not a important ruled played by PEs or Spies exclusively,
which is what is needed.
How about a tank getting an important role in an OP war? Spy, PE, PPU, APU play important roles. Tanks can't hack. They have AoE, but so does APU and theirs is better. Face it, Tank has it the worst in OP wars. PEs/Spys are not even close to being unimportant.
Shadow Dancer
18-10-03, 05:07
Originally posted by Mankind
How about a tank getting an important role in an OP war? Spy, PE, PPU, APU play important roles. Tanks can't hack. They have AoE, but so does APU and theirs is better. Face it, Tank has it the worst in OP wars. PEs/Spys are not even close to being unimportant.
*BEEP* wrong. APU aoe is near useless. Tank aoe may not be the greatest in the world, but it's better than apu aoe in op wars. Secondly tanks cause the 2nd most damage in the game. IMO pes out-defense tanks, but in team battles their defense is equal due to PPU buffs. Which means that the tank does more damage. And you forget hackign is a specific skill. So saying "hackers" have their place in op wars is better than saying "pes/spies" have their place in op wars. Not every pe/spy hacks. EVERY ppu buffs, and EVERY apu debuffs because it's an "innate" class ability.
And we're takling about the battle itself. The battle itself is mostly dominated by monks. You also forget skirmishes, team battles, and other non op war battles.
APU AoE is NOT useless in OP wars. The rare barrels are most useful IN OP wars for keeping people out and infiltrating close areas in the OP. Tank AoE is useful when you are going to ambush and want to take out groups of enemies or turrets from a higher viewpoint. From a viewpoint inside the OP, monks are better with AoE. You said it yourself: "The battle itself is mostly dominated by monks". The battle takes place inside the OP, so therefore monks are the most useful characters.
I know alot of PEs/Spys do not hack. But, alot do also. The most important thing about OPs are hackers, with the exception of PPUs, because PPUs are the single most important thing in the game. BUT. PEs/Spys do have the accessibilty to enough hack skill for OPs, as well as PPU/APU monks. The only character left is tank. This post was made to get PEs/Spys more active in OP wars. Well, I think they are active enough, and tanks need to be much more active.
So to sum things up..in the matter of usefulness in OP wars to least usefulness, here we go:
PPU
APU
Spy
PE
Tank
Some people might debate it, but I don't care; battling in so many OP wars, this is what I see most.
Shadow Dancer
18-10-03, 06:42
Originally posted by Mankind
From a viewpoint inside the OP, monks are better with AoE.
No it's not, because no AOE can be used in close range anyways. APU aoe is very small, and the apu practically has to be on top of the enemy already. So it's borderline useless. Not to mention the damage is garbage.
Originally posted by Mankind
You said it yourself: "The battle itself is mostly dominated by monks". The battle takes place inside the OP, so therefore monks are the most useful characters.
That has nothing to do with AOE. It has to do with PPus being the "king" chesspiece, and apus being the only one with anti-ppu equipment.
Originally posted by Mankind
BUT. PEs/Spys do have the accessibilty to enough hack skill for OPs, as well as PPU/APU monks.
Like I said not all pes/spys hack. So it's not a good analogy. ALL apus can debuff and ALL ppus can buff. See, it's not the same thing.
Originally posted by Mankind
So to sum things up..in the matter of usefulness in OP wars to least usefulness, here we go:
PPU
APU
Spy
PE
Tank
I guess we disagree. This thread isn't even about tanks anyways, it's about this particular idea.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
No it's not, because no AOE can be used in close range anyways. APU aoe is very small, and the apu practically has to be on top of the enemy already. So it's borderline useless. Not to mention the damage is garbage.
Well I'll take the word from the most lethal APU on Pluto. Even though I still disagree after playing my APU for months upon months. Barrels are sooo good in wars, you just gotta know how to use em.
That has nothing to do with AOE. It has to do with PPus being the "king" chesspiece, and apus being the only one with anti-ppu equipment.
So? There's always a king in each game. PPU happens to be the king at the moment. I guess people just need to know how to play their characters more. PPUs are easy to take down, just try harder.
Like I said not all pes/spys hack. So it's not a good analogy. ALL apus can debuff and ALL ppus can buff. See, it's not the same thing.
I wasn't comparing it to that. I was saying this because they have the ACCESSIBILITY to hack, whether they choose to use it or not that's different. Them having this, they become very useful in OP wars. If a Spy/PE wants to play an important role in an OP war, he can lom to hack...nuff said.
I guess we disagree. This thread isn't even about tanks anyways, it's about this particular idea.
I can count 100 times where you brought another topic way off the subject. The subject was about giving PEs/Spys a more important role in OP wars. I was comparing them to Tanks, which have it worse....again nuff said.
Shadow Dancer
18-10-03, 07:01
Originally posted by Mankind
Barrels are sooo good in wars, you just gotta know how to use em.
Right. I'm talking about enemies with an IQ more than 5. I'm sure a TAR can kill a fully capped PPU if he's brain dead, that doesn't mean the tar is TEH UBER GUN!
Originally posted by Mankind
So? There's always a king in each game. PPU happens to be the king at the moment. I guess people just need to know how to play their characters more. PPUs are easy to take down, just try harder.
TRUST me baby I know how to take down ppus, thanks. It's not about taking them down, it's about them being way too important in the first place. You may think it's ok that they are the way they are, but I don't.
Originally posted by Mankind
I wasn't comparing it to that. I was saying this because they have the ACCESSIBILITY to hack, whether they choose to use it or not that's different. Them having this, they become very useful in OP wars. If a Spy/PE wants to play an important role in an OP war, he can lom to hack...nuff said.
I don't consider hacking an important role in op wars. And liek I said 555555 million times before, op wars aren't the only battles. Their are MANY skirmishes and large scale battles everyday that have nothing to do with op wars.
And saying hacking is an important role in op wars is like saying tradeskillers have an important role in op wars because they are the ones who construct the weapons we fight with.
I'm talking about the actual fighting itself, what's the pe/spy gonna do, hack the opponent's neural brain interface causing SI blah blah blah....
Originally posted by Mankind
I can count 100 times where you brought another topic way off the subject.
rofl ok :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Mankind
I was comparing them to Tanks, which have it worse....again nuff said.
that's nice.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I don't consider hacking an important role in op wars. And liek I said 555555 million times before, op wars aren't the only battles. Their are MANY skirmishes and large scale battles everyday that have nothing to do with op wars.
This post is about OP wars; not skirmishes and large scale battles. Going a little off topic there.
Shadow Dancer
18-10-03, 07:09
Originally posted by Mankind
This post is about OP wars; not skirmishes and large scale battles. Going a little off topic there.
Read the title. Does it say op war only? Now read this.....
Originally posted by Rade
give Spies and PEs a use in OP wars and other
battles where PPUs are involved.
Pay attention.
[we can do without that pic]
stupid idea.
how can a non-proficiant PSI class debuff a PSI based Pure monk?
make no sense.
The tech could attack the glove.
but the glove has already done its job; it has cast the spell, therefore stopping the glove from working after that is useless.
The tech tool causes a kinetic field which improves the speed of
all incomming objects
The tech tool disturbes the flow of psi energies around the
person through a directed emp blast at the spells nexus
...
Or any other of a bazillion gay reasonings that are already
ingame. This game is so devoid of logic that that is hardly a
problem. And also, the psi glove suggests that technology and
psi is intertwined already, put a little psi requirements on the tool
if you want to or whatever.
@mankind: If you participate in an Op war you will see that your
model for most important class doesnt hold very true. Tanks do a
great job because they do have a great damage output, and with
a ppu buffing them they have amazing defence. And while the
apu monks will die fast if they dont get attention from PPU monks
a Tank can go a while without buffs or heals. Their damage
output makes them wanted in almost every combat situation, no
one wants a CS up their ass, it hurts for everyone. Tanks are still
the best core class, without exceptional skill you can still beat
average PEs and APUs (unless the apu is sniping you o_O) and
be a major annoyance to skilled PEs and APUs. Very good tank
players can probably take on almost anyone one on one.
Improvement of Tanks AE weapons, halve the range of offensive
spells, then I think tanks will be just fine. But then again thats
not what we are talking about, we are talking about PEs and
Spys getting a tool to take out PPUs, thus making them wanted
in OP wars, and making the PPUs easier to take down.
shadow is wrong monk barrels are VERY usefull in op fights and this is coming from a guy thats been a apu way longer than shad...
I use barrels a LOT
and yes give spys a good anti defl tool and pes a weak one...
then increase tank aoe with x2 and we might be set for some fun none monk op battles...
Originally posted by Omnituens
stupid idea.
how can a non-proficiant PSI class debuff a PSI based Pure monk?
make no sense.
and pures need to be kept.
Bioeletric distruptor weapons would make sense. These weapons would decrease effectiveness of psi buffs, drain psi or decrease the time buffs are in effect. Maybe freezers could be changed to these kind of weapons. Needs to be balanced carefully.
Of course weaker buffs should be overridden by stronger buffs (ie. tl3 vs. holy heal).
Tanks need basic set of H-C brain implants which are not rare or epic. Every other class has basic attack implant set, why not tank?
Genetic reconstructor: Alternative way to resurrect runner. Device requiring int and dex (dex for making it non apu monk item) to operate. For spies. Maybe give them some other toys too, make them technomancers :) hightech version of the monk. No I don't have spy char on any server.
Synaptic impairment on resurrection: Death shouldn't be taken lightly. Currently single ppu can raise entire army from the dead while few runners can be pounding the ppu with everything they got.
The only subskill tanks need under str is H-C, so they can pump it
to where they can cap (or almost cap?) freq on a TL100+
weapon. Then look at Spies and PEs main combat skill; agility, t-c.
They are happy if they can cap damage on a TL100 weapon.
And finding out it says apumonk, saturn and dazist in the lower
right of your sig gave me a seizure, tyvm :P
Shadow Dancer
18-10-03, 18:42
Originally posted by deac
shadow is wrong monk barrels are VERY usefull in op fights and this is coming from a guy thats been a apu way longer than shad...
You haven't been an apu that much longer than me Deac, don't exaggerate nor does that mean much anyways K THX.
I still say barrels are borderline useless spells that barely help, and I don't mean 1 or 2 instances where you saw X apu barrel the UG and it managed to kill one idiot etc.....
Originally posted by deac
I use barrels a LOT
COOL DUDE!
@omnituens
About making sense, alot of things in this game doesn't make sense. And you can make up an RP reason to justify literally anything you can think of.
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