View Full Version : Brainport: PPU Dependence
There are a large number of various arguments going around on forums about the 'ruination of PvP because of PPUs' in the game.
- PPUs: The Destruction of PvP. A discussion about Neocron's current Monk Imbalance (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77676&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)
- Why not do this to PPUs (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78847)
- The results of 'Monkacron' (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78719)
- Even a discussion on our own public forums (http://forums.synergyxr.net/viewtopic.php?t=1313#12576) has started.
What we need is some changes to PPUs. Not to change their own playability. I still believe a PPU monk should be virtually unkillable unless facing a number of APUs, however, the futility of PvP in Neocron is barrelling downwards and has been for awhile. At any OP fight, at least 40-50% of the fighting populations anymore, is monks. Many times, the OP fights aren't a question of who has the better PvP players, it's a question of monks. A large number of either time will heavily tip the scales in your favour. Having a large number of any other type, tends to do virtually nothing.
I believe it was Jest who mentioned in his thread that 9 times out of 10, a clan won't even attack or defend an OP if they don't have a PPU on. I'm sure everyone wants to jump right onto that and scream some adolecent "WTF MY CLAN IS TEH UBAR AND DOESN'T ALWAYS UES TEH PPU LIEK UR GHEY CLAN!!!eleven", but that's BS and we all know it, so get over it. Jest is right.
An account from on of our snipers, Freaky Fryd that I'm sure many spies who feel useless in battle can relate to:
When I'm off fighting on my own (or with another stealther or two), I HATE fighting people with PPUs. By myself, I have almost no chance of taking down any decent PPU, unless I catch him without buffs or he crashes. So, all the people that I do manage to take down, just get ressurected. There's even been a few times at OPs, that by myself, I've taken down the final hacker (or the last 2 hackers) which was basically all in vain, due to them having a PPU there. Great...I delayed the hack by 1 minute...but rarely that little time helps...
What I propose for the upcoming patches is a few PPU gameplay changes that shouldn't effect the ... effectiveness (Austin Power's Eyebrow) of a PPU on themselves, but should add some balance to PvP.
Para Spam
Even with a Cath + Drugs, you can still find yourself immobile due to a PPU, or worse, multiple PPUs spamming your ass. Many people have simply complained and said take Para out of the game. I love para tho, and would hate to see one of the PPUs main abilities go. What I *would* like to see is a PSI cast req that equals that of the Rare Barrels for the APU. 2-3 casts of para max per PSI Pool on a PPU, however, keep the cast time as-is so that it hits instantly, just drains a large chunk of pool.
Resurrection
Targetting and killing key players in an OP battle or any PvP is not tactically rewarded as it should be. In 5 seconds, that player can be up and attacking you as if they never even died. So what was the point? Some people argue, kill the damage dealers and the PPU will run away. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Some people say kill the PPU then everyone else is as good as dead. This usually is true, however concentrating on the PPU while the entire enemy team is targeting your key damage dealers usually backfires.
Anyway, the idea I'm puttin out is that one should get some SI (5--15%) after you've been resurrected.
You can have your genes ripped apart, sent across the map, put back together, and you get what, 35% SI? You friggin' DIE, you're HP is taken to ZERO, you're dead, kaput, croaked, and when you stand back up, you're healthy as a horse? That's retarded.
So if you were dumb or misfortunate to get killed in the first place, then you get a penalty for dying and have to fight your way back up the food chain. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a tank kneel there and take a shitload of damage and die without ever trying to use some PvP skill. I mean, if you're only there to fire as long as your alive, then die and be rezzed, you might as well be a brainless turret who's replaced after you're destroyed. That person, for standing there like Captain Retarded should be penalized for dying. I say give them some SI. Like I said, you were just dead.
Mid Battle Turret Dropping (Not PPU related I know but it came to mind, ok? :p )
Some have suggested only constructors be able to drop turrets. That's way too restricting I think. What should happen is you stand there, right click on the turret to plant it, then you hear the whole constructing/researching/poking click, and it goes into your Processor window, and a progress bar starts ticking. Maybe 5-10 seconds should go by until it drops. Then that nice "finished" clicking sound would happen and viola! Turret. Granted, a stealther could still lay a turret, however, it would give the opposition a chance to see them with True sight or something. OR, just stop ppl from laying turrets stealthed and that would be fine, hehe.
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I don't claim that these ideas are 100% new, but they are ideas that I've been mulling over in my head for a long time. If they've been presented before, I apologize and don't mean to step on anyone's feet. I am infamous for overlooking obvious details however so please feel free to chime in. This thread is only here for awhile before it's thrown into Brainport, so if you like what you read, PLEASE RATE THE THREAD! :) Also, to those who want to say "why didn't you post to one of the other threads" because A) I wanted people's opinions on these specific ideas and not just more discussion on the overall subject and B) I specifically said Brainport so that this thread eventually moves there and gets seen by devs (hopefully o_O ).
kthxbye
I was tired of reading all the PPU-nerf threads, but I think this one is totally sufficient to sum it up. Without further thinking about it (what I won't do) I like these ideas without exceptions, especially the SI for dying and getting rezzed. :) ..... *****
Originally posted by -FN-
Anyway, the idea I'm puttin out is that one should get some SI (5--15%) after you've been resurrected.
Originally posted by RayBob
Dropping shields while resurrecting? I don't like that. Sure it's frustrating to watch a player that you just killed come back to life but it makes OP battles last longer and most of us enjoy a good battle. However, I think it would be good if a resurrected player had a small synaptic impairment of say 10%.
I think it's a great idea FN....almost as if I had thought of it myself.:D :D :D
Well like I said, I'm not claiming anything hasn't been thought of before :) I can only read through so many PPU complaint threads a day. I just wanted to organize them for Brainport.
Glad you agree tho :D
Original monk
15-10-03, 09:49
because im tired of posting treads to say how tired i am off the PPu nerf threads, i yust gonna write: leave the ppu as it is, otherwise mc5 will be even harder, yust think about it: and boost every other class in the game except monks and the balance will return, ya dont solve anything with nerfing, ya yust let even more PPu's become apu's :/ or yust kill an entire class as with the hybrids, and alot people leavin again for that .... o_O
KramerTheWeird
15-10-03, 10:00
One of our clan mates said we should modernize our weaponry.
What he meant by this is that we should all reroll to monks.
Shouldn't reakktor give us the flexibility and options of having fun as well as being an efficient fighter? Why do we have to be monks to compete now? It is very discouraging and quickly draining any enjoyment I have had in this game, that the only way to fight a monk is to be a monk.
btw raybob, I've thought up the SI given to runners after ressurect several times before, as well as the processor turret idea but I didn't really care he was ripping off ideas or however you may feel..
It's not difficult to fix Monkycron: reduce APU damage by 15%, reduce APU range by 20%, add 10% synaptic impairment to resurrected runners, make medkits works 50% faster, and improve the anti-shock drugs.
CRAIG DIGGERS
15-10-03, 12:55
Originally posted by RayBob
It's not difficult to fix Monkycron: make medkits works 50% faster.
Better medis = more apus
enigma_b17
15-10-03, 13:06
Why do we have to be monks to compete now
who said u do, pes can own monks, and ive seen a few tanks own a monk (apu that is). Spies arent really made for close quaters combat, so they get their arses kicked whenever they come across an apu monk. APU's range does need a nerf though, a capped holy lightning with a good bit of psu use in intelligence, will give u amazing range, which should be the advantage of sniping. imo
enigma_b17
15-10-03, 13:09
mayb im biased cause im ppu but why do u keep complaining about Parashock being spammed. Yes its annoying as ive found from my other chars, but tbh as a tank and a spy i find the holy lightning "spam" annoying as hell considering the amount of damage it does, same kind of thing i think.
You've missed one more more issue :
Holy Outheal
You get no advantage of hitting anyone, cos even if u got him down to 1%, HH will get him back to 100 in few secs.
My answer is :
Make all heals equal to TL3 heal in power. Maybe only a bit stronger or really longer lasting.
Please notice that all problems began with hybrid nerf - monks were *designed* hybrids : weak offence nad defence overtaken by dmgboost and shelters.
Today monks are stronger than Tanks, designed for combat . That also fucks up storyline; why the hell monks created GenTanks when they could just go there, perform genocyde and withstand nuclear bomb?
That is consequence of attempting to convert NC to EQ.
A small message to developers :
Neocron is not EverQuest
KRIMINAL99
15-10-03, 16:06
I dont understand the people that want to nerf PPU's support abilities and leave them invincible. Yeah ressurecting is an uber ability. But a PPU cant do it if hes dead. Why should PPU's or anyone for that matter be so invincible?
Besides just OP fights there is a responsibility to make them evenly matched in 1v1 PVP as well or maybe even gimp in 1v1 since they are support characters. The idea being that in a 2v2 the ppu and his teamate are incredibly powerful.
IMO both monks should be gimp by theirselves but create the best team together. Thats the only thing thats balanced when you consider the extraordinary abilities each one has. (2x the dam of everyone else and all the special abilities ppus have)
Quote by Agent L
Today monks are stronger than Tanks, designed for combat . That also fucks up storyline; why the hell monks created GenTanks when they could just go there, perform genocyde and withstand nuclear bomb?
ROFL great point, a perfect example that monks were never meant to be what they are.
One way to solve the ressurect problem is make it so that PPUs lose all/some of their active buffs when they cast ressurrect. Or cannot re-apply buffs for 'x mins' after casting it.
I'm not really sure what sort of effect this would have, because I'm not being very big on the whole OP Fight scene...
I admit that I havent played a Monk since beta, and that this idea is probably pretty terrible, but its just another idea to be analysed, till a proper solution can be formulated...
ghandisfury
15-10-03, 19:54
IMO, I think ress is balanced. The only thing that needs to change is the fact that there is no way to remove these people from battle. If they gave PEs and spies a gun (with pistol/rifle reqs of 150 or more) then it would totally balance ress. It would also give you a reason to NEED PEs and spies at an OP fight.
this is a link to a post on the Synergy forums (http://forums.synergyxr.net/viewtopic.php?t=1321)
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
I dont understand the people that want to nerf PPU's support abilities and leave them invincible. Yeah ressurecting is an uber ability. But a PPU cant do it if hes dead. Why should PPU's or anyone for that matter be so invincible?
Because we have no way to stop you from killing us. We SHOULD be near invincible, but there should also be a counter for ress.
KRIMINAL99
15-10-03, 20:04
Originally posted by ghandisfury
IMO, I think ress is balanced. The only thing that needs to change is the fact that there is no way to remove these people from battle. If they gave PEs and spies a gun (with pistol/rifle reqs of 150 or more) then it would totally balance ress. It would also give you a reason to NEED PEs and spies at an OP fight.
this is a link to a post on the Synergy forums (http://forums.synergyxr.net/viewtopic.php?t=1321)
Because we have no way to stop you from killing us. We SHOULD be near invincible, but there should also be a counter for ress.
Thats not true you can slow people with HP and run away. Anyways I think it was intented originally and should be that APU and PPU both be somewhat gimp on their own. I really think that invincibility is not a trait anyone should ever have in a multiplayer game. There would be nothing imbalanced if ppus had all their special abilities and supported other players but could be killed on their own semi easily. That 50% shield on others nerf should be undone if it was ever actually implemented imo and everyone just given a debuff attack.
Progenitor
15-10-03, 20:07
Make Holy Parashock slightly greater than the shock a Terror Mauler/Mauler deals, Halve the range, adjust the rest of the para-family downward. (On a side note, Terror Maulers shock should be slightly less than that of curent holy parashock) Up the psi cost on it. Maybe x1.5 Maybe decrease the frequency.
Add a Holy Parashock barrel with slightly less power than holy parashock. With the range of barrels, the caster is more likely to get himself if not friendlies in the barrel.
Allow a rresurection to be disrupted if the caster is hit by signifigant weapon fire. (What signifigant means is up for discussion)
I think that would balance things out enough.
-p
QuantumDelta
15-10-03, 20:23
Hmm.
Contributing factors to PPU "dominance" in teams;
Parashock; Reduction in up to 80% of the victims speed, leaving them near helpless if they don't have a sufficient counter measure.
Damage Boost; Wildly "debuffing" spell, Gives a 5-70% defence malus to people with Damage Boost cast on.
Holy Heal; Massively regenerating defence, holy heal is the last "Massive Defence" thing a PPU can do for themselves or anyone else, since Shelter/Deflector(of the capped holy kind) is only barely better than PE Self-Cast Buffs now.
Ressurection; This spell, though in itself, not over powered, the PPUs ability to tank damage while the rezz spell is cast is regarded as overpowered by some.
Counters;
Parashock; Stealth for PEs and Spies, For Tanks and APUs, there needs to be a buffer like effect on the drugs, simply allowing Para not to take effect, at all.
Drugs should be expensive, last 30 seconds (immunity), then leave a SMALL amount of flash.
Damage Boost; Somewhat like the current drugs, however, instantly working and leaving virtually no drug flash.
Holy Heal; Lower Anti-Heal cast cost, increase anti-heal frequency. However I don't really believe holy heal should be tweaked that much... it, in itself is the last thing a PPU will have after Para is made virtually ineffective.
Ressurection; Heals automatically cancel and become non-functional for ten seconds after rezz is cast, if the force is sizable (3 or more people) the PPU will not be able to complete a rezz and get away alive.
Also Tweaks;
Parashock; Mana Cost Increase, from 33 to 99, RoF Decrease from 105 to 52.
Damage Boost; Lower the damage in PvP on damage boost from 50-70% to 30-50%
Holy Heal; Lower Holy Heal Heal Tick SLIGHTLY (Remaining above Blessed heal, obviously), probably about 10-15%.
Ressurection; Make ress even more sensative to runcast.
Buffs should be made overridable still.
A weapon to remove corpses, would be nice.
Unfortunatly this will only be balancing PPUs, APU and Tank and Spy Balance issues haven't been touched in my post :p
Progenitor
15-10-03, 20:56
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Buffs should be made overridable still.
A weapon to remove corpses, would be nice.
As long as they are overridable both ways, it works.
Since APU is the PPU bane - give the APU a spell that can be cast on corpses on the ground to prevents them from being resurected for 30/60/90 seconds.
ghandisfury
15-10-03, 21:01
Originally posted by Progenitor
Make Holy Parashock slightly greater than the shock a Terror Mauler/Mauler deals, Halve the range, adjust the rest of the para-family downward. (On a side note, Terror Maulers shock should be slightly less than that of curent holy parashock) Up the psi cost on it. Maybe x1.5 Maybe decrease the frequency.
Add a Holy Parashock barrel with slightly less power than holy parashock. With the range of barrels, the caster is more likely to get himself if not friendlies in the barrel.
Allow a rresurection to be disrupted if the caster is hit by signifigant weapon fire. (What signifigant means is up for discussion)
I think that would balance things out enough.
-p
This would only hurt the pure PPU monk, yet would still not effect the current "monkocron" issues....if anything, it would make it worse. You are still not adding a NEED for other classes to join OP wars.
Originally posted by Progenitor
Since APU is the PPU bane - give the APU a spell that can be cast on corpses on the ground to prevents them from being resurected for 30/60/90 seconds.
DO NOT GIVE IT TO MOOOOOOOOOONKS!!!!! *echos* Give spies, PE, or tanks a funcion, a necessity, a REASON to join the battle.
ATM the mindset is "do we have PPUs? yes? OK, good, how about APUs? Yes, ok good...let's go. It SHOULD be "do we have PPUs? Yes, good. How about APUs? Yes? ok, great....tanks? NO TANKS? Uh oh, it's going to be a tough battle boys."
Originally posted by Progenitor
As long as they are overridable both ways, it works.
Since APU is the PPU bane - give the APU a spell that can be cast on corpses on the ground to prevents them from being resurected for 30/60/90 seconds.
that seems ok, but then you are back to everyone needing monks still. give that prevention to a spy or tank or PE.
Progenitor
15-10-03, 21:15
Okay - I get it. Rock-Papper-Siccors like.
So what we need is a Tranquilizer-like dart weapon that momentarily removes psi abilities, much like parashock removes movement abilities. (Of course there would have to be the anit-drug to remove the effect)
Make it take a good while to fire and reload freq 30min, 50-75m range.
Allow Spys and PEs to use the weapon.
Or some ammo mod that disrupts psi abilities - does little damage, but if a monk casting a spell is hit, it fizzles.
-p
Sure as long as PSI people get a spell that when cast totally locks up all your weapons, and items (medkits, boosters) for 5 seconds.
See how you can manage.
What your suggesting is even worse then parashock.
ghandisfury
15-10-03, 21:25
Originally posted by Progenitor
Okay - I get it. Rock-Papper-Siccors like.
So what we need is a Tranquilizer-like dart weapon that momentarily removes psi abilities, much like parashock removes movement abilities. (Of course there would have to be the anit-drug to remove the effect)
Make it take a good while to fire and reload freq 30min, 50-75m range.
Allow Spys and PEs to use the weapon.
Or some ammo mod that disrupts psi abilities - does little damage, but if a monk casting a spell is hit, it fizzles.
-p
O_M_F_G......................yes, and to counter this, a PPU spell that would turn only PEs and spies into droms with neon signs pointing down at their asses saying "put gun here" for let's say...30 seconds? Of course there would be a drug to counter this effect.;)
Progenitor
15-10-03, 21:34
Geeze - rough room.
But hey - you said give em a reason to be at the op battle.
I tried.
-p
Some good debates going here :)
A few things about APUs I wanna comment on tho:
Reducing damage I'm not too keen on. *Maybe* 5% if anything but since we do random damage anyway, I think our damage dealing is fine. So many times I'll be close to killing someone and only need one more uber 500 damage hit, and instead I get like 100. The fact that it's random to such a large degree means we should be able to hit a few time in a row. CS's fire in bursts of 4. When you get hit by all 4, do you call that CS spam? The solution to not getting "spammed" by an APU is to MOVE which, in my PvP experience as an APU, is most of my opponents down fall. They don't move nearly enough.
Reducing the range tho, like I said, I'm all for. Not that I particulary enjoy close quarters because I get blown over like a 75 lb kid in a hurricane, but I think our range when capped is kinda insane.
As for Debuffing, I don't think that should be for all classes. Maybe I'm bias because I'm an APU, but I don't think some people understand the Catch-22 coexistence of the APU and PPU. My *best friend* in Neocron is the PPU. My *worst enemy* in Neocron is the PPU. But there has to be some way to make other classes required in fights.
Off the top of my head, how about a Tank weapon that resembles a Laser Canon, that has a long firing rate of about 15-20 seconds of a constant laser beam. Call this the "Corpse Eliminator" or something. After the 15-20 seconds of this beam on a dead body, they vaporize and are auto-GRd to their Apartment (similar to the corpse explosion idea awhile back). Then multiple tanks could fire on a body and make it disappear faster.
Everyone is right tho atm that there is no reason to bring a Tank, PE, or Spy to a PvP battle anymore. Used to need tanks for good ol' AoE from their Moonstrikers like ~CD~ used to do on Pluto. Well APU rare barrels do more damage than that and are more accurate. Used to need to bring rifle users to do mad damage on someone quickly and accurately. Now APUs outdamage them and practically outrange them.
Maybe damage boost should be a PE only spell and cast a little quicker...
How about a buff stripper gun? Which PE/Spy and Tanks can use.
However it uses the PSI stat of the owner to baseline of what they can strip against the target (not the caster of the spell).
So for example a mid level PPU can be stripped of buffs by the weapon if say the PE had more PSI levels then them.
Or if they attack a Spy buffed up to the gills by a capped PPU they can be stripped of thier buffs.
This won't take PPU's out of the fight as they will still be able to protect themselves (when they reach that level against thier attacker), however it will allow buffs to be removed from people so they can be fought on an even setting against others.
You could also have different weapon types.
Type 1 - Removes negative effects (DB, Para)
Type 2 - Removes positive buffs
Type 3 - Removes shields/Deflectors
Type 4 - Removes heals
Type 5 - Stops Rez spell from taking effect to the corpse for x time.
They would have to be 1-3 round weapons with heavy ammo though. You could also shuffle up the weapons between classes (eg. Type 5 to a tank only)
This leaves APUs who are buffed. Which would be become top of the pile so I am not sure how you would deal with that.
For APU's effect, give tanks anti-PSI armor which lessens the effects of all PSI attacks.
Off the top of my head, how about a Tank weapon that resembles a Laser Canon, that has a long firing rate of about 15-20 seconds of a constant laser beam. Call this the "Corpse Eliminator" or something. After the 15-20 seconds of this beam on a dead body, they vaporize and are auto-GRd to their Apartment (similar to the corpse explosion idea awhile back). Then multiple tanks could fire on a body and make it disappear faster.
i think this can work... but make it so its "shot time" is comparable to that of normal rez 6/min such that there will be "competitions"...
apu dmg is fine... FA rof needs to be upped... range should be cut down that i agree.
/thought: make antishelter/antidef/antiheal all cast at same rate and cost as shelter/def/heal; then antibuff will cast at 3 times the rate and cost; with holy antibuff at maybe 2/3s the cost...
the reason for the above is in cost analysis: currently the other slow spell are the rare barrels, capping at 21/min... normal holy barrels are 54/min and do roughly 1/3 the dmg; the rare barrels have roughly 3 times the cost of normal holy barrels... hence there is a correlation... now if there was to be a correlation in all things, then anti-wutever should have same time to take effect as wutever is being removed (i.e. holy shelter capped 54/min; holy antishelter capped 54/min).
then: make 3 lvls of anti-wutever with the lowest coming in at antiheal at tl 3 (to counter heal); blessed anti-wutever at the same lvl of blessed-wutever buff its removing.
ok now: make it so the lvl of the anti-wutever spell can remove that certain buff/def/heal and those that are below it; so that say blessed antishelter can remove blessed shelterse and shelteres on its target but not holy holy shelter... etc.
just random thoughts while i'm tired :D
/oh yeah: anti-rez and holy anti-rez (6/min and 10/min respectively; costs as much as rez)
Shadow Dancer
15-10-03, 23:08
Originally posted by -FN-
Some good debates going here :)
A few things about APUs I wanna comment on tho:
Reducing damage I'm not too keen on. *Maybe* 5% if anything but since we do random damage anyway, I think our damage dealing is fine. So many times I'll be close to killing someone and only need one more uber 500 damage hit, and instead I get like 100. The fact that it's random to such a large degree means we should be able to hit a few time in a row. CS's fire in bursts of 4. When you get hit by all 4, do you call that CS spam? The solution to not getting "spammed" by an APU is to MOVE which, in my PvP experience as an APU, is most of my opponents down fall. They don't move nearly enough.
People are selfish, they don't want the "bad points" of a class fixed but sure as hell scream about the overpowered points. I don't see anyone complaining when an apu scores multiple "low damage" hits in a row. lol. ENERGY spells have a MAX random damage value which is too high. KK can simply increase the minimum random damage amount and decrease the maximum random damage amount on energy spells. But at the same time fire and poison should be boosted to their appropriate level.
Originally posted by -FN-
Reducing the range tho, like I said, I'm all for. Not that I particulary enjoy close quarters because I get blown over like a 75 lb kid in a hurricane, but I think our range when capped is kinda insane.
I do think range should be cut roughly in half. That may sound like too much to you, but i'm looking at the end picture. I think all the overpowered and "under"powered aspects of each class should be fixed.
Originally posted by -FN-
Well APU rare barrels do more damage than that and are more accurate.
errr, barrels are almost useless in op wars. Tank aoe should do more damage I agree, but it's much better than barrels due to range and speed.
You know how close you have to be to land a rare barrel? And then it takes 150 mana, and people can simply "walk back" if they get hit once from it. Barrels are crap most of the time.
Originally posted by -FN-
Maybe damage boost should be a PE only spell and cast a little quicker...
I wouldn't want to see damage boost made "easier" for pes to use, otherwise their overall offensive power will increase. THey already can get tank defense or better, now you wanna make it easier for them to do more damage? :confused: Hell no. :p
Originally posted by -FN-
Mid Battle Turret Dropping (Not PPU related I know but it came to mind, ok? :p )
Some have suggested only constructors be able to drop turrets. That's way too restricting I think. What should happen is you stand there, right click on the turret to plant it, then you hear the whole constructing/researching/poking click, and it goes into your Processor window, and a progress bar starts ticking. Maybe 5-10 seconds should go by until it drops. Then that nice "finished" clicking sound would happen and viola! Turret. Granted, a stealther could still lay a turret, however, it would give the opposition a chance to see them with True sight or something. OR, just stop ppl from laying turrets stealthed and that would be fine, hehe.
Funny really, the first time i ever saw this tactic in action was by SXR, your spies and some tank Rento Webex or whatever shitting turrets and stuntraps in mid battle....pretty ironic that one of the first "clans" to use this "lame ass tactic" is now complaining about it...but heh who cares? ;)
About the PPUs,who cares, KK dont, theyll probably make the other classes even more dependant of PPUs. "Its all about teamwork" "everyone group hug, we can do this together!" silly hippies, smelling dirty and smoking weed.
The only fix i want with the friggin holy para is to make the spell same reqs as Holy Antibuff or whatever its called, same rof and mana. also give the other para shock same treatment, except the tl 1 para, as you know, we have never survived without a PPU or parashock in op wars and everything ever before.
Also fix all the "countermeasure" drugs like anti-shock to have some lasting effect, antidotes to work a little faster, like 3 or 4 seconds faster.
Also id like all the "direct" heals to lose 50% efficiency when casted on others then the PPU itself, im not talking about the group or sanctum heals.
I feel the heals are too effective, when people with a PPU straped to their rectums can outheal your damage, with a good rare, well crap, its just to give up and stand in Plaza 1 with a flashlight and run about for 10 min, log and do something else like head to your asshole friend and demand that he gives you back your stuff that he yanked earlier.
PPUs should be a boost and support, not a goddam requirement to just go hunt mobs that drop magical uber items that no neocron company knows about or wants to duplicate for their own profit.
They should be an aid that helps you enough, but not so much that you dont need to do anything but point and click and then spam in Direct "PWNZ YOU LOL i WIN THSI GAEM YUO FAG".
eh whatever, lets make more threads im SURE KK will listen, like they always do.
I dont like the idea of this magical anti-rez weapon, that everyone suddenly have some tech weapon that makes bodies disappear and unrezable, if you wanted to make bodies unrezable, make us to be able to mutilate bodies with all our current weapons, make melee useful.
ghandisfury
16-10-03, 00:26
Originally posted by -FN-
As for Debuffing, I don't think that should be for all classes. Maybe I'm bias because I'm an APU, but I don't think some people understand the Catch-22 coexistence of the APU and PPU. My *best friend* in Neocron is the PPU. My *worst enemy* in Neocron is the PPU. But there has to be some way to make other classes required in fights.
Totally agreed...besides, even if you did add debuffing weapons, there is still no reason for spies or PEs to come to battle...the APU can do it much much better.
Originally posted by -FN-
Off the top of my head, how about a Tank weapon that resembles a Laser Canon, that has a long firing rate of about 15-20 seconds of a constant laser beam. Call this the "Corpse Eliminator" or something. After the 15-20 seconds of this beam on a dead body, they vaporize and are auto-GRd to their Apartment (similar to the corpse explosion idea awhile back). Then multiple tanks could fire on a body and make it disappear faster.
I guess I see alot more tanks than PEs and Spies in battle (excluding monks). The reason for them to be there is because with PPU buffs they can take a pretty good beating, coupled with causing pretty good damage....which (imo) is the way it is supposed to be.
Originally posted by Archeus
How about a buff stripper gun? Which PE/Spy and Tanks can use.
NO, and I'll tell you why. Because you are agian rendering the PPU useless in a fight. A PPU should be an enhancement to a team, making them stronger, faster, more accurate. Basically enhancing the skill of the team in general. If any Tom, Dick, or Harry were able to strip ANYBODY of the PPU given buffs, you may as well remove the class.
The imbalance can be spelled out in three spells, resserect, parashock, damage boost. Resserect is unbalanced because there is no counter for it. Parashock is unbalanced because if I put the worst player in the game against the best player in the game, I can guarentee the bad player will win if the better player is parashocked. Damage boost is unbalanced because at the click of a button you are taking almost double damage. Damage boost should have to stack as it does on mobs.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
People are selfish, they don't want the "bad points" of a class fixed but sure as hell scream about the overpowered points. I don't see anyone complaining when an apu scores multiple "low damage" hits in a row. lol. ENERGY spells have a MAX random damage value which is too high. KK can simply increase the minimum random damage amount and decrease the maximum random damage amount on energy spells. But at the same time fire and poison should be boosted to their appropriate level.
You are correct, these are the people who don't understand the class they want nerfed.BTW The tests that I've done lead me to believe that APU damage isn't "random", only averaged.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I do think range should be cut roughly in half. That may sound like too much to you, but i'm looking at the end picture. I think all the overpowered and "under"powered aspects of each class should be fixed.
I think your about right.....half would be right about perfect...However I don't think there are many "under" powered aspects of other classes. I think they are just about right, asside from the fact that they should have an assinable duty for OP battles other than "go do hack 1/2/3".
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
errr, barrels are almost useless in op wars. Tank aoe should do more damage I agree, but it's much better than barrels due to range and speed.
The mana for rare barrels should be cut in half, as well as the cast time. However, I find that the rare barrels are quite usefull in OP wars.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I wouldn't want to see damage boost made "easier" for pes to use, otherwise their overall offensive power will increase. THey already can get tank defense or better, now you wanna make it easier for them to do more damage? :confused: Hell no. :p
Agreed, but I DO want to see damage boost have to be stacked (see above).
StoneRayne
16-10-03, 00:42
The more crap you put into the game the harder it will be to balance. Don't add any more new things, they'll only make it worse, instead, readjust already existant things in the game.
Long ago I made some suggestions..having played an APU for most of my NC life, I'm saying that I believe that they need a 50% Range reduction.
PPUs need to have Holy para cost tripled or quadrupled.
Yah nice post. I think Para Spam, quick Ressurection with no penalties, and monks only being able to counteract monks are the three things that are plagueing the game right now.
You also mentioned something in the original post that I definitely agree with, that is of the semi-invicible PPU. To be honest I like that the PPU is really hard to kill. I don't get pissed off when I can't kill a PPU by myself. I shouldn't be able to anyways. The key to putting the soul back into the combat system is spreading out the usefulness among the other classes. The PPU should absolutely benefit a team, but it should not be as vital as it is currently. Make people want to fight without a PPU shadow, but without nerfing the class and still leaving them highly effective in team situations.
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