View Full Version : Why not do this to PPUs
KRIMINAL99
15-10-03, 05:17
My suggestion: Give every class an antibuff weapon or item. Make it so its hard enough somehow or takes long enough so that its only worth using on ppus.
Other than that maybe nerf parashock a little.
I think its a simple idea that no character should be that invincible. Defensive character or not. Yeah a defense character should be able to greatly boost nearby team mates. Yeah an APU/PPU combo should be a great match thats better than any other team. But no one character should be that powerful compared to any other JUST based on their weapons/stats as opposed to their skills.
Personally I think its obvious PPU's should be like something that greatly boosts their teammates but is not that hard to kill on its own.
Instead its like they are invincible and have SOME offensive capability so they will always win.
PPUS are just like Hybrids were but not as bad. Hybrids had every uber special ability in the game, were near invincible, and could do as much or more damage than any other character with their dam boost. They were just flat out 2x better than everyone else.
Now PPU's are like the same thing except it takes 2.5 seconds longer to kill people than hybrids with their capped TAR or parashock spam. And since they are TOTALLY invincible that doesn't make much of a difference.
IMO they should have very little chance of winning a 1v1, be relatively easy to kill, and instead only greatly support teamates with all their special abillities. They ought to be something to protect in order to keep their benefits instead of what they are now...
oh yeah sure as a ppu at a op war its hard enough when u see three antibuffs open up one after the other but u want every char at a op war to be able to use antibuff yeah right how about ppu's just quit now
Originally posted by Candaman
oh yeah sure as a ppu at a op war its hard enough when u see three antibuffs open up one after the other but u want every char at a op war to be able to use antibuff yeah right how about ppu's just quit now
Sounds like a plan, Go on, do it. If the overpowered monks disappeared from NC then I'd probably come back along with many others. The simple fact that one class is the deciding factor in any fight or OP war is ridiculous and has destroyed NC for me.
If ppu's died it would just become tankocron or peocron so what ever happens people are gonna keep moaning
Originally posted by Elric
Sounds like a plan, Go on, do it. If the overpowered monks disappeared from NC then I'd probably come back along with many others. The simple fact that one class is the deciding factor in any fight or OP war is ridiculous and has destroyed NC for me.
Shush elric, canning's like's hi's godmode ;)
[Edit]
Originally posted by Candaman
If ppu's died it would just become tankocron or peocron so what ever happens people are gonna keep moaning
no...... if psi's were BALANCED then, hell, fuck me, they would be on the same level as PEs and spy's, IMO Tanks atm are the runt's of the class, especially now considering PE's get easy access to a ray of last hope and some other rifles. PE's now get comparable offence to a tank, plus alot better defences than a tank...
thus tank r teh runts...
Tanks need some new toys, plus a defence :rolleyes: APU's have such rediculous attacking power they dont 'need' a defence as generally 1 on 1 with a APU your dead before your turned 180 to look at the APU O_o, PPU's have amazing defence, godlike and generally only die if lag fucks up or something like that. PE's atm are pretty well balanced, they die, they can win.
Spy's IMO have on of the best defences, the longer versions of stealth... only TS sanct gets rid of that...
Dribble Joy
15-10-03, 12:51
The real problem with monks and specifically PPUs, is Holy heal.
The rate it adds hp to the recipient means that they are almost unkillable, Tanks, spys and PEs simply cannot do enough damage to anyone else to be viable in a fight. Only the APUs with their 4 shots point and click death can hope to overcome this.
That and Paraspam makes current OP warfare an utter joke.
I's say reduce the effects of heals on OTHER people (not on self) like with the other buffs, then we might stand a chance.
Originally posted by Candaman
If ppu's died it would just become tankocron or peocron so what ever happens people are gonna keep moaning
Tank-a-cron my ass. I could easily take out Tanks as a PE and a Spy, thats with all the weapon classes, Drones Pistols and Rifles. Chances of taking out a monk with any of the above... 0.
Original monk
15-10-03, 13:11
If you have a fully capped apu monk, ya worked hard for it, put almost every point in apu, cap every apuspell with other words put alot of work and effort in becomming a master/ specialist in doing damage then people think its normal you can kill someone in 1 maybe 2 seconds yust cause you do sooo ubber damage cause youre specialized in offense.
Now, other way around.
Ya take a fully capped ppu monk , he puts every single xppoint he has in PPU, he worked veery hard for it, he caps every ppuspell, every heal, shelter etc, with other words alot of work in becomming a master/specialist in healing/shelters etc.
but in this example people think its crazy they cant kill the PPU, who's only job is healing and stuff, with other words, specialized in defense...
Now why can that apu (whos specialization is killing) kill someone in 2 secs witouth a problem, witouth any nagging and why is everyone WHINING/BITCHING/NAGGING on that same monk (now a ppu version ->only specialization in defense) because he cant be killed, its the only thing they do ya see, why take that away from em... i dont get it...
about giving everyone antishelters: do that and i will make my spy an antibuff spy: only reason of existance: debuff enemy, stealth away, next enemy, stealth away again and so on, pretty lame isnt it... imagine that happening in chaoscaves/PP1/OPfight/mc5 etc to give you 1 example...
ppu's are fine, leave em as they are or there wont be anymore PPU's around, its hard enough to level one allready... and expensive enough...
WHY instead of whining about paraspam and overpowerd heals, WHY dont ya make a big SIG containing: REMOVE THE PPU FROM THE GAME, remove every holy heal remove yet another class, let alot off people who had fun playing a class leave again and one of the funniest things i read lately: bring the hybrid back !!! yeah ya heard me: first they all want the hybrid dead o_O now they wont em back...
If KK didnt listend to the spy's and PE's whining on the forum to kill the hybrid this shit probably didnt happen. First they force hybrids to go pure or quit the game and now there whining cause you cant be killed cause you went pure 8| so freakin weird people here... and dont go telling me that hybrids are viable atm :mad: cause they aint...
And i dont mind KK listening to the people to change the game, i think interaction is cool, but killing a class yust so the scared PE's & spy's can sleep on there 2 ears .... sjees
Even if the monks were modified so they would be everyones bitches people would.
a) whine a lot that Tanks /PE/Spies (pick) should be nerfed as they are too powerful.
b) All the monkey tourists would just reroll to strongest character at the time.
I've played PPU even when it was everyones bitch, so I will still keep the character.
Originally posted by Candaman
If ppu's died it would just become tankocron or peocron so what ever happens people are gonna keep moaning
tankocron was a hell of a lot more fun than monkocron
notice I said Monks are overpowered, I personally wasnt restricting to PPUs :p
A spy can specialise in Rifles, Drones or Pistols and cant kill a monk, yet has a good chance against all the other classes.
A Tank specialise in melee or Heavy and cant kill a monk but has a good chance against the other classes.
A PE can semi-specialise in Drones, Pistols or Rifles and cant kill a monk, but has a good chance against other classes.
APU can specialise in theyre weapon (apu spells) And can kill everything in less than 4 seconds, usually not enough time for any other class to kill the APU.
A PPU specializes in Defensive spells and CANNOT be killed one on one.
See the imbalance now?
Not that I really give a shit, I quit months ago. Its just my take on the whole ridiculous situation.
enigma_b17
15-10-03, 13:49
A spy can specialise in Rifles, Drones or Pistols and cant kill a monk, yet has a good chance against all the other classes.
very few spies can kill a monk in close quaters combat. They werent made for it. Spies were meant to be snipers, they dont ave the body health or armour to be able to take on ppl in cqc. And no offence to spies, but they have not got a good change against a tank. Not a good one anyway, or a pe. Spies get absolutely mauled in cqc. 1-3 shots of a powerful weapon = dead or nearly dead unless u put every const point u get into a specific resist then u can lst a bit longer. Exception to this would be a droner, they own tanks and apu monks, pes are harder, but possible.
A Tank specialise in melee or Heavy and cant kill a monk but has a good chance against the other classes.
a tank can kill a monk, in my experience a melee tank can quite quickly kill an apu monk. Heavy is a bit harder, but still possible.
A PE can semi-specialise in Drones, Pistols or Rifles and cant kill a monk, but has a good chance against other classes
a pe can easily kill a monk. apu anyway, not many classes apart from apu can kill a good capped ppu monk. Dont know where u been playin, but I know for a fact that pes can kill a monk.
APU can specialise in theyre weapon (apu spells) And can kill everything in less than 4 seconds, usually not enough time for any other class to kill the APU.
most of the time due to the crapp const of a monk, a pe can kill a monk. Tanks can kill an apu monk, spies possibly, but would be very hard if they are attacked first without warning.
A PPU specializes in Defensive spells and CANNOT be killed one on one.
unless ur an apu with holy antibuff true. But to compensate for that they cant kill u, unless theyr willing to parashock u to death, which i have said in the past, the damage that a parashock beam/holy parashock etc does should be removed. Or a soul cluster, which i believe should b made pvm (person v mob) and made more powerful. PPU's should be completely defensive, and despite many posts on the topic of nerf the ppu bla bla bla, they would be if they got rid of damage from para spells and made soul cluster pvm. And parashock is not an offensive spell, it is only offensiv in the way that is does some damage. If you get parashocked, and another person kills u then its not the ppu who took the offensiv action.
All other -ocrons are fun. PPUs remove the fun from battle. For
alot of us the fun in neocron is battle, and when a class removes
the fun from neocron something is wrong.
me and another apu were defending krupp a few days ago, we were at the GR waiting to see if anyone else was coming.
i see a tank an a PE come running at us, i start backing off a using HL on the tank taking chucnks out of his health. That took alot of hits to take the tank down by that time i'd realised the other apu was dead and i now had to fight the PE who had a lib. The Pe was either smart or lucky, within about 5-10 secconds of him firing my legs were gone, my only chance was to blast him as much as i can but at that range the lib tore me to pieces.
so a PE and tank took out 2 apus, the other apu i know isn't as good as me, but what cought us out was that we didn't see the tank and PE till they were nearly on top of us.
i've also been killed by a spy with a SH, those things really tank a chunk out of your health even shielded.
an apu/ppu team is a pain in the ass, i've played against them and i've played as one, i've killed them (not solo mind) and been killed, It takes GOOD teamwork to do it but you can do it.
I will agree that ppus affect the outcome of PvP TOO much, a team of apus are not as strong as you think if you can play smart, add one ppu and that just boosts them beyond anyother class. Which leads me to parashock i wouldn't be bothered it took this this out of the game, i have a ppu too and i use it, i'd prefer not to but people do it to me and it aids to my death so aslong as that happens then hell yeah i'll do it back, from an apus PoV parashock is both a godsend and his worst nightmare. As Shadow has said many times at many op wars there is a ppu paraspamming him if i had that ALL the time (thankful i don't) i'd be pissed too, but then if an enemy gets shocked it's curtains for them it doesn't take long if you have a full mana pool.
i don't really have a overall point this is just the way i feel
KRIMINAL99
15-10-03, 14:54
Originally posted by Candaman
oh yeah sure as a ppu at a op war its hard enough when u see three antibuffs open up one after the other but u want every char at a op war to be able to use antibuff yeah right how about ppu's just quit now
Yes I do. There are alot of APU's right now in OP fights. Maybe APU's should have the most powerful antibuff spell, or most quick. But PPU's have no right to be invincible against everyother character in the game. Its just that simple.
And antibuff takes alot of psi pool which takes a little bit of time to replenish with psi boosters- From a class that doesn't have much life expectancy unless they have their own ppus strapped to their butt.
Obviously alot of effort is going to be concentrated on you in an OP fight because you are a pillar of strength for your team. This is the life of a ppu.
Your complaint is like when some hybrid before complained about nerf threads because he "had to rebuff sometimes"... Try playing any other character in an OP fight with all the enemies concentrating on you, then see how long you survive.
@ Dribble Joy
So you are saying that PPUs are invincible but just let them stay invincible and instead reduce their effect on other players? oO Why? IMO Don't take away their identity as support characters, but make it so they aren't freaking invincibe 1v1 or so hard to kill in group fights...
About the theres always something to "moan" about ppl- Thats true- but for instance people said that back when hybrids where so uber and guess what - HYBRIDS REALLY WERE OVERPOWERED
So how do you tell the difference between something being overpowered and it just being the moan of the day? When the same class gets posted about once a day as being overpowered, when a lot of players agree on it, when you can easily logically see that a class is overpowered- then it probably is.
Besides how much simpler can the idea that having every special ability in the game, being invincible and still having some attack power (allowing you to kill anyone since you are invincible) is unbalanced be?
When a different class gets brought up say once a week and the thread is 3 replies wrong then THAT is a random moan.
P.S.
I remember a while back reading a post by either thanatos or maybe just a mod saying that monk psi/int levels slower because they are better in the end. I just wanted to bring this up again and respond to it with this:
First of all they don't really level slower because they do more damage than all other classes AND have a AOE spell that doesn't degrade in damage over distance. So the smaller amount of xp per enemy is NEEDED just to keep them from capping in a day. (Although the INT was a little to slow b4 but I hear they just changed that) Which sux for everyone else btw because everywhere you go to level there is some monk using up all the mobs with his AOE attacks which kill mobs 2x faster than anyone else can.
Second even if there was a class that took two or 3 times as long as others to level but was TOTALLY uber in the end like monks are now then that wouldn't be fair to everyone else. In the end everyone has to be equal- as in equally useful, viable powerful not exactly the same. Otherwise its just plain not fair.
Dribble Joy
15-10-03, 15:01
@ OpTi
Indeed, apus on their own are reasonably balanced, other than the random dmg and the point and click aiming, they are quite equal to the other classes.
You guys are a joke.
What is with this Paraspam nonsense?
If you have died at the hands of a ppu you are lame simple as. Get some skillz.
Dribble Joy: If a PPU has time to paraspam at an OP fight then he's a shit PPU.
You guys are talking about a CAPPED PPU... with no regard for people who have to level twice as hard to get to that level.
If anyone on wants to see how long it takes my PPU to kill them on Uranus with my capped HP spell then be my guest and don;t put anything in your diary for half an hour cos you won;t be free for that long.
Even with triple Damage boost, HP at my skill level does 20 damage to a launcher. According to neocron.ems.ru actual damage is a third of that. 7 Damn hitpoints per cast and not to mention your resists.
Damn I'm pissed off. every time I read ANOTHER NERF THE PPU thread its like chinese whispers. The alleged capabilities of HP grows and does more wonderful things everytime. 75% of people who write in these threads have never been a PPU and have only been on the receiving thread of his/her's respective server's chief griefer and his capped PPU.
Fact is I haven't heard 1 decent reason to Nerf HP or PPUs in general from god knows how many posts. Excuses so far:
- I can't Move
- I got killed
- My spells aren;t as good as theirs
- They spoil OP fights (Hello... I been to fights that lasted hours down to only good PPUing. That means hours of fun gaming to me... you?)
Synching in and out of the UG spoils Op fights
Turret dropping spoils OP fights
Getting all of your mates and their mates vs. 1 clan spoils OP fights
Stop wasting your time and energy on this drawn out and over blown subject and write something useful about the bugs in the game which are now at an all time record high and maybe even the plight of the poor tanks who have had the harshest deal of late and are now the worst class to play. They are the only class with an un-useable PA IMO.
One day... one of you ungrateful oiks just might post a thread about a PPU saving your arse like they invariably do.
Originally posted by Rade
All other -ocrons are fun. PPUs remove the fun from battle. For
alot of us the fun in neocron is battle, and when a class removes
the fun from neocron something is wrong.
Yes.
I am a monk too but I dont like the game much atm.
where the fuck did all this BS come from.....:confused:
cannings has been solo killed by 1 person OMG hes not teh ubar, and hes considered a good PPU monkeh
Lore vs Snake eye in a duel ....OMG snake eye won
Rade how many APU's u killed ?
so get ur head outta ur ass and play the fucking game.
KRIMINAL99
15-10-03, 15:37
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
You guys are a joke.
What is with this Paraspam nonsense?
If you have died at the hands of a ppu you are lame simple as. Get some skillz.
Dribble Joy: If a PPU has time to paraspam at an OP fight then he's a shit PPU.
You guys are talking about a CAPPED PPU... with no regard for people who have to level twice as hard to get to that level.
If anyone on wants to see how long it takes my PPU to kill them on Uranus with my capped HP spell then be my guest and don;t put anything in your diary for half an hour cos you won;t be free for that long.
Even with triple Damage boost, HP at my skill level does 20 damage to a launcher. According to neocron.ems.ru actual damage is a third of that. 7 Damn hitpoints per cast and not to mention your resists.
Fact is I haven't heard 1 decent reason to Nerf HP or PPUs in general from god knows how many posts. Excuses so far:
- They spoil OP fights (Hello... I been to fights that lasted hours down to only good PPUing. That means hours of fun gaming to me... you?)
ROFL... first of all damage to a launcher is reduced already because launchers have resists... Second if a player is invincible AND has some attack power AND can slow people like 80% really easily then yeah hes going to have a huge adv in 1v1. Also a PPU can use a TAR or S33f smg and do more damage than HP I believe.
Paraspam doesnt take much time or effort by a PPU and if there are two ppus on a team that doesnt have an extrememe amount of people theres gonna be paraspam.
Noone said HP was an uber attack... But if a character is invincible and has some attack and can stop the person from running, then theyre going to ALWAYS win a 1v1 fight. And HP does more than 7 damage in pvp.:rolleyes:
Like I just said leveling time (and no PPUS dont take twice as long to level unless your not smart about it - you just team with a bunch of same lvl apus) does not justify being better than everyone else in the end.
oO Im glad your having fun being the sole meaningful character in an OP fight.. Not the smartest thing to put as a defense in a PPU are overpowered thread tho...
The reason to nerf PPU's is simple they are Overpowered. Once again they have every special ability in the game(except stealth), are invincible in 1v1, extremely tough otherwise, and have some attack abillity.
@Ryuben were talking about experienced players as PPUs here... Yes if a PPU stands there and does nothing he is killable. We are talking about Neocron vets behind PPU's being invincible here.
Ok so maybe apus have a chance against them 1v1 especially because of anti buff.
Where does that leave Spies, tanks and PEs? Which was the whole point of the thread- give everyone an antibuff...
@ Original Monk Ooh you slipped by me there...
Ill answer your question for you. APUS are justified in doing so much damage because have so little DEFENSE not because they took so long to level. In the end leveling doesnt matter (and monks DO NOT take more time than anyone else to level- more money yes but they get more too)
Like scikar says PPUs are not justified in being invincible themselves they are support characters, Support is what they do. Tanks whole purpose was to be the damage sponges- and they arent unkillable they just take more damage than the other classes. Noone has a right to be a brick wall that damage just doesn't even effect because its outhealed.
Btw Im not one of any character, Ive Played every character in the game to at least level 80.
Oh so your claiming Hybrids werent over powered now? Ive heard that they are viable now they just don't have the ability to kill 2 grim chasers and solo a small clan. Sounds to me like you need to go try playing some of the other classes and then come back and talk about whats not overpowered.
Originally posted by Original monk
If you have a fully capped apu monk, ya worked hard for it, put almost every point in apu, cap every apuspell with other words put alot of work and effort in becomming a master/ specialist in doing damage then people think its normal you can kill someone in 1 maybe 2 seconds yust cause you do sooo ubber damage cause youre specialized in offense.
Now, other way around.
Ya take a fully capped ppu monk , he puts every single xppoint he has in PPU, he worked veery hard for it, he caps every ppuspell, every heal, shelter etc, with other words alot of work in becomming a master/specialist in healing/shelters etc.
but in this example people think its crazy they cant kill the PPU, who's only job is healing and stuff, with other words, specialized in defense...
Now why can that apu (whos specialization is killing) kill someone in 2 secs witouth a problem, witouth any nagging and why is everyone WHINING/BITCHING/NAGGING on that same monk (now a ppu version ->only specialization in defense) because he cant be killed, its the only thing they do ya see, why take that away from em... i dont get it...
about giving everyone antishelters: do that and i will make my spy an antibuff spy: only reason of existance: debuff enemy, stealth away, next enemy, stealth away again and so on, pretty lame isnt it... imagine that happening in chaoscaves/PP1/OPfight/mc5 etc to give you 1 example...
ppu's are fine, leave em as they are or there wont be anymore PPU's around, its hard enough to level one allready... and expensive enough...
WHY instead of whining about paraspam and overpowerd heals, WHY dont ya make a big SIG containing: REMOVE THE PPU FROM THE GAME, remove every holy heal remove yet another class, let alot off people who had fun playing a class leave again and one of the funniest things i read lately: bring the hybrid back !!! yeah ya heard me: first they all want the hybrid dead o_O now they wont em back...
If KK didnt listend to the spy's and PE's whining on the forum to kill the hybrid this shit probably didnt happen. First they force hybrids to go pure or quit the game and now there whining cause you cant be killed cause you went pure 8| so freakin weird people here... and dont go telling me that hybrids are viable atm :mad: cause they aint...
And i dont mind KK listening to the people to change the game, i think interaction is cool, but killing a class yust so the scared PE's & spy's can sleep on there 2 ears .... sjees
I am sick of people using this argument. You are wrong.
APU - master of killing people. Fair enough.
PPU - master of staying alive? NO! Master of keeping people alive? Yes. That's the problem. You think being able to keep someone healed up equates to being indestructable, which is frankly wrong. PPUs should be the masters of healing and ressurecting and buffing, but TANKS should be the damage sponges.
Ozambabbaz
15-10-03, 16:13
also, REMOVE THE FRIGGIN HOLY HEAL....
LOL, as i read this i hear you guys wanting to nerf ppu's right? Well by nerfing shelters on others and heal on others your just makin it so the ppu stands out more. Since the other people would die more the ppu would look even stronger when he has to rezz more people under fire. Because all this wouldnt hurt a ppu just all his teammates.
SigmaDraconis
15-10-03, 16:29
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Shush elric, canning's like's hi's godmode ;)
Cannings..and god mode..eh... attack him once ;D
anyway...people bitching abotu PPU godmode...i dare you to try and acheive it yourself...go ahead if its so damn easy.
If anything id have to say APU is the most over powered class in the game. And rifle PE seems to be the most gimped.
EDIT....OMFG Dis change yur avatar ! lol
KRIMINAL99
15-10-03, 17:22
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
anyway...people bitching abotu PPU godmode...i dare you to try and acheive it yourself...go ahead if its so damn easy.
Too late already have before...
Original monk
15-10-03, 18:12
Originally posted by Scikar
I am sick of people using this argument. You are wrong.
APU - master of killing people. Fair enough.
PPU - master of staying alive? NO! Master of keeping people alive? Yes. That's the problem. You think being able to keep someone healed up equates to being indestructable, which is frankly wrong. PPUs should be the masters of healing and ressurecting and buffing, but TANKS should be the damage sponges.
i am sick of people missquoting me or not reading my post before (over)reacting :rolleyes:
i repeat: master of offense: apu
master of defense: ppu
so in youre opinion a ppu is only good to buff people (to be their buffbitch) but he isnt supposed to keep emself alive in even the most crazy situations (example mc5: 4 maybe even 5 copbotlike beings shooting at you simultaniously, and the libby-engineer, or more common: 15 chaoscave critters and a chaosqueen shooting you)
ok then: make a PPU a buffbitch as you suggest, make the ppu him/herself vulnerable and everyone loms apu, why ? a ppu getting killed every 5 minutes isnt worth playing lol, what use is a dead ppu to he's team or clan ? nuthing indeed
Btw what is an actual example of this ?? nerf the holy heal when casted on yourself ?? crazy lol
so no prob: kill yet another class and i spend again 8 hours lomming to apu :) i will enjoy poisonbarreling PP1 for the whole day until PP1 is also known as pepperswamp1 :P must be fun also..
Now lets roll another one, im tired of arguing with ya,
did ya sleep on the bed or did you sleep on the cauch i wonna know, where where you last night ? For what was in my head, am i supposed to chaange...
gettin distracted here o_O
edit: the tank thing ya said about them being sponges is correct, i want tanks also boosted, as well as in defense as in offense and i want 3 stars on a tank :/
elric u assuming the apu hit in every hit and does 100+ everytime
yeh i got an apu and yeh i can win over SOME tanks but not all many tanks beat me cuz i have nowhere near as much defence as a tank here is a tip foir the tanks shoot out the apus legs and he is dead meat
Lore vs Snake eye in a duel ....OMG snake eye won
OI i beat snake as well but yeh its kinda 50/50 in nf he beat me big times cuz as a apu i need the distance when we are out in the open i beat him more but point is tanks can beat an apu just try it
Shadow Dancer
15-10-03, 18:40
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
@ OpTi
Indeed, apus on their own are reasonably balanced, other than the random dmg and the point and click aiming, they are quite equal to the other classes.
Yup, but just because their a monk they get lumped in with fuckin PPUs who are truly imbalanced. So people then exaggerate the apu's "imbalance" and act as if the apu is also destroying the game, when it's really the ppu. That's another reason I hate ppus so much, their gonna get apus proxy nerfed. So they might do a little too much damage, so fuckin what you can tone that down and don't tell me that it's fucking ruining the game.
APus would be nothing special in op wars wtihout a ppu, they would just be "another fighter". People see apu/ppu teams and then their like "OMOGMOGMGO MONKS MUST DIE"
I fuckin hate PPus.
Also 4 seconds to kill someone? yea ok. The only people who have a right to bitch about apus are spies. Tanks can kill the apu just as fast as the apu can kill him. If the apu catches him offguard or gets first hit, yea he'll be fucked. But also vice versa.
And i love when pes complain about apus. LoL. Pes who have better defense than tanks, and can use explosive/pierce weapons combined with stealth. And if they still can't kill apus then they are fucking garbage at PvP.
It ALWAYS took me more hits to kill a PE than a tank, when I was apu. And also, it was harder since the PE(if he had explo mod) could kill me faster than CS could.
always bitching SD, its really annoying hah
Progenitor
15-10-03, 18:47
My 2cents:
Make Holy Parashock slightly greater than the shock a Terror Mauler/Mauler deals, Halve the range, adjust the rest of the para-family downward. (On a side note, Terror Maulers shock should be slightly less than that of curent holy parashock) Up the psi cost on it. Maybe x1.5 Maybe decrease the frequency.
Add a Holy Parashock barrel with slightly less power than holy parashock. With the range of barrels, the caster is more likely to get himself if not friendlies in the barrel.
Allow a rresurection to be disrupted if the caster is hit by signifigant weapon fire. (What signifigant means is up for discussion)
I think that would balance things out enough.
-p
Shadow Dancer
15-10-03, 18:51
Originally posted by SovKhan
always bitching SD, its really annoying hah
Shut the fuck up already. Everyone has their gripes and complains about it. It's always bitching when you don't agree with what the person is saying, at least I make more useful comments then the bullshit you spew, I.E. your stupid comment just now. If you don't fuckin like it THEN PUT ME ON IGNORE GODDAMNIT, IT'S NOT THAT HARD!!!!
JESUS CHRIST! :rolleyes:
@ KRIMINAL (see my original post and his reply)
1. PPUs are not invincible. That was a lie wasn't it.
2. You cannot deal 80% shock until your close to capping. Again this retarded rant is intended for Capped PPUs and not 95% of the sub-class. 50-60% at best at my level (PSI 107 pure PPU)
3. Yes PPUs can use weapons. Do you want to take those away from us too? Take away our ability to do missions? Thanks.
4. Paraspam doesn't take too much time no... but recasting shelter and deflector and heal every 60 seconds takes it out of us. Not to mention the resist booster and the initial damage boosts? Please don't pretend that we target you and hold our fingers on the fire button in order to kill you. I'd estimate that 97% of PPUs have never used para of any sort in PvP.
5. Teaming with a bunch of same level APUs. Hmmmz. Do they sell them in Crytons? Rokkwear? Man you are making me kill myself laughing (not with HP u understand). You are lucky to find a competant team of any class within your level band. Oh and by the way... do APUs have a big box of INT that they hand out to passing PPUS? I think not.
6. PPUs are better than everyone else "in the end". Are we?. OK none of my friends are on... lets see... I think i'll scratch my arse because I have nothing to heal but myself! PPU is the most team orientated class on the game and is pretty much useless without one if you don't have a tradeskill. Not exactly able to solo doomies or warbies are we? Damn HP i forgot. So lets look at us in a team. Are we better than everyone else..... still no. Kill all of my teammates and i'm not gonna be able to win the fight by myself am I? I couldn't even pick all of my lads up off the deck, heal them, shield them and move on to the next one without getting ganked myself. Please.
7. Solo Meaningful Character in an OP fight. So you want to play die and stay dead?... this is Neocron not Counterstrike. PPUs are pivotal but nothing without the rest of the team and their individual abilities. I'm sure that everyone will agree that they have enjoyed the long drawn out OP fights. No-one can complain as both sides have PPUs and if you go to an OP without one you're stupid beyond belief. I think its a very valid point in why you shouldn't nerf us PPUs because a 5 minute OP fight is nothing short of boring. You may aswell Ninja Hack it. Saves on pokes.
8. Oh... we're invincible in 1v1. Most PPUs don't PvP 1v1, again high nineties in the percentage stakes have better things to do. There are 2 different arguments to this point. |A: (Insert Class)attack a Capped PPU = Stupid |B: Any PPU attack (Insert Class) = Bored. If we were invincible, you would find PPU after PPU in pepper park 1 screaming "OI.... Come and have a go if you think your hard enuff".
In conclusion. you must be feeling very silly by now and I strongly urge you to read my original post. Overpowered? No. Different? Yes. Ask yourself a question: When you had your PPU how many times did you die? I think you'll recall getting gangraped and hammered by higher level Runners quite often in unsafe-zones and with no real means of hitting back at all. Stop. Ah Ah. Its true isn't it. It's happened to me and every other PPU who ever tried to level to Capped status.
So what if we die... what happens. Well we have to pick ourselves back up... get poked same as you. If we drop a belt. The likelihood is that in each of the other nine QB slots that aren't locked, we have valuable spells for the taking by Johnny Hacker. I personally carry 10 of the finest PPU spells on the game including 2 rares. I don't like having to re-acquire those items.
Do me a favour and change the record. Look at my sig aimed at the other imbecile, who has campaigned for the demise of the PPU for far too long with countless threads aimed at Nerfing this sub-class. The way you spoke... and the points I've highlighted above for your benefit... you don't want to Nerf PPU you want to get rid of PPUs altogether. IMO the only thing that's Criminal is what comes out of your mouth. Because its the same Shit that attracts flies like him to jump on any bandwagon. You taken what he said and brought it to a whole new level now... like chinese whispers.
SD: I have no problem with you personally. The stuff you have written recently has gone too close to the mark and has made me very passionate about the subject. I still maintain that if it wasn't PPUs that upset you you would be trying to Change/Nerf something else until the game gets to just the way you like it.
Bottom Line: Still not a single damn reason why PPUs should be nerfed Other than the previous I have highlighted which I have answered and are pathetic.
NERF BAT WIELDING FAIRIES :cool:
@Mortice: So you dont see a single reason why PPUs should be
nerfed, when hundreds of people think that this class completely
takes away the fun from PvP in Neocron?
Btw, I have had a really good time today. Ive been PvPing in
Pepper Park all day and only once did a PPU come in and spoil it,
other than that incident we had a blast. And it reminded me what
Neocron could be like if that POS subclass was removed. Now we
wont have that, so at least put them in line with the other
classes.
I can solo warbies and doomies... however it takes hell of a long time to kill 1 and the loot is absolutly crap now because the SC has a higher level then them. Good luck trying to kill one with just para.
Other then that your spot on.
simple solution:
1.) make heals a "default" spell for all classes and come as a "default" setting so anyone can use it.
2.) remove ppu under psi; no buffs/boosts/etc.
3.) only 1 monk class: apu
4.) lift skill caps; but balance by making skills that are not meant to be strengths hard as hell to lvl (i.e. tanks will have one helluva time lvling psi/int; monks will have one hullva time lvling str.)
then once again tanks will be ubar cuz they dmg sponge... pe's will be second with versatility and second best con... then apus... lastly spies.
....
or just remove para and dmg boost and we can all be happy :D
I don't think ppus should be easy to kill. When did I say that? I just don't think they should be as hard to kill as they are now.
I think there should be a system where tanks can absorb damage from ppus. Give tanks a job, and make the ppu rely on his team as much as his team relies on him. When a ppu is with a tank, he should have good defence. When a ppu is on his own, he should have no better defence than a PE. When did you last see a support unit with better defence than a front line battle unit?
If ppus relied on their team for defence, and I don't just mean make the ppu weak and force his team mates to surround him because that's not practical, then I wouldn't mind things like parashock staying.
Shadow Dancer
15-10-03, 23:01
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
2. You cannot deal 80% shock until your close to capping. Again this retarded rant is intended for Capped PPUs and not 95% of the sub-class. 50-60% at best at my level (PSI 107 pure PPU)
Oh please. We're talking mostly about high level PvP.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
3. Yes PPUs can use weapons. Do you want to take those away from us too? Take away our ability to do missions? Thanks.
I don't see anything wrong with ppus using weapons IMO, it's when it's combined with parashock that it's "wrong".
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
I'd estimate that 97% of PPUs have never used para of any sort in PvP.
omfg, how can you expect people to take your opinion with any weight when you make comments like these?
Do you even PvP?
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
5. Teaming with a bunch of same level APUs. Hmmmz. Do they sell them in Crytons? Rokkwear? Man you are making me kill myself laughing (not with HP u understand). You are lucky to find a competant team of any class within your level band. Oh and by the way... do APUs have a big box of INT that they hand out to passing PPUS? I think not.
This is a crucial point that you made. Are apus sold at crytons? No their not. Sometimes it's hard to find an apu isn't it? Even harder to find a good or competent one. Now people's problem with ppus in pvp is that if one side has a PPU their advantage is so great that the other side will now need a ppu. Then you need an apu to take out the ppu, etc.... Then it becomes "damn they got 4 ppus and 3 apus, we only got 1 ppu, we can't op fight" or other such bullshit. Are ppus sold at crytons? No. The crux of the problem is that they are far too needed, it kills PvP. It becomes who has more monks, it becomes Monkacron.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
and if you go to an OP without one you're stupid beyond belief.
Ahh so you have no problem with one class dominating op wars? It's ok for the PPU to be THAT needed. I don't see you calling anyone else stupid for not bringing a spy, pe, or tank. So what if you don't have a ppu? Or enough ppus?
You know my clan has had several monks reroll, and 2 leave. Now we're VERY VERY short on monks. 1 has lost interest, and 1 is thinking of quitting. We are rapidily losing power because of our lack of monks. We can't even op fight anymore because we barely have monks. How fucking stupid is that?
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
Look at my sig aimed at the other imbecile, :
Very mature. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
SD: I have no problem with you personally.
Yet you call me imbecile. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
I still maintain that if it wasn't PPUs that upset you you would be trying to Change/Nerf something else until the game gets to just the way you like it.
Then you know nothing. I only campaign "hard" about issues I feel are detrimental to the game. I have many issues. Like pes having more defense than tanks, and how I feel pes should have NEVER gotten stealth, I feel tanks should have a serious AOE boost, I feel that their are many imbalances within the game. But ppus are ruining this game, and until something is done about it I will continue to campaign hard. THX
Personally I'd dont want to totally screw over the PPU class. I respect the PPU even if I hate it in its current state. My take on it?
1. Make the resurrection spell take half the psi points, but 5 times as long to cast.
2. Either remove parashock completely or increase the mana it takes to cast by 3-5 times its normal psi point usage.
3. Give Gentanks a sort of antibuff AoE gun that has extremely low rate of fire but if some one is hit in the field of the blast it knocks off one random boost. (Heres the catch). The gun has such a drain on the user that it would cause a 3% SI after every shot.
I don't know. Those seem pretty decent. It would make tanks a bit more useful and it would make PPUs a bit less. Any thoughts?
Originally posted by Jest
Personally I'd dont want to totally screw over the PPU class. I respect the PPU even if I hate it in its current state. My take on it?
1. Make the resurrection spell take half the psi points, but 5 times as long to cast.
2. Either remove parashock completely or increase the mana it takes to cast by 3-5 times its normal psi point usage.
3. Give Gentanks a sort of antibuff AoE gun that has extremely low rate of fire but if some one is hit in the field of the blast it knocks off one random boost. (Heres the catch). The gun has such a drain on the user that it would cause a 3% SI after every shot.
I don't know. Those seem pretty decent. It would make tanks a bit more useful and it would make PPUs a bit less. Any thoughts?
GENIUS!!!!!
tho the 3% SL might be a tad severe... but then again anything less and the ppus would be crying... maybe have rifle and pistol versions of hte cannon so that all classes can use it?
Originally posted by Jest
Personally I'd dont want to totally screw over the PPU class. I respect the PPU even if I hate it in its current state. My take on it?
1. Make the resurrection spell take half the psi points, but 5 times as long to cast.
2. Either remove parashock completely or increase the mana it takes to cast by 3-5 times its normal psi point usage.
3. Give Gentanks a sort of antibuff AoE gun that has extremely low rate of fire but if some one is hit in the field of the blast it knocks off one random boost. (Heres the catch). The gun has such a drain on the user that it would cause a 3% SI after every shot.
I don't know. Those seem pretty decent. It would make tanks a bit more useful and it would make PPUs a bit less. Any thoughts?
Tanks are already the second most viable class in OP fights
except for Monks, this will only knock down PEs and Spies even
further when it comes to big fights. Yes PEs and Spies are great
for duels, however in big fights they need someting that makes
them wanted.
Again, just 5 mins ago, PPU monks destroyed what could have
been a fun fight in Pepper Park. Seriously they have to be
thinking "Im going to go in and spoil the experience of everyone I
meet" when they log on Neocron. I just dont get it, does anyone
think its fun to fight someone thats shocked and dmgboosted
while you yourself are S/D/Haz'ed and are being healed? I dont
think its fun, the only time this is moderately fun is when both
side have the exact same amount of PPU/APU monks, and then
again they are the only ones having fun. A PE or a Spy cant
contribute in a situation like that, they will just be in the way.
Shelters and Deflectors shouldnt be "foreign cast" nerfed, they
should do the same thing on others as on the caster, however
the effect of the highest shelters, deflectors and heals should be
nerfed heavily, to around half of their current effectiveness. Then
you would actually be able to damage someone thats being
healed and buffed by a PPU, the fact that you can actually
outheal someone while you are standing still and letting him
shoot you is ridicoulus, the fact that you can outheal several
people doing this is stupid beyond belief.
@Rade
I totally agree... in 1v1 PvP, PPUs spoil it for sure. PPUs should be banned from Pepper Park. In fact KOS by Copbots there. LOL.
Once again. When you die you would prefer the Rez to the pokes would you not? If you don't want to fight with PPUs involved go to neofrag. As a subscriber with a char in every class I do like the old 1v1 myself you know. Are you just pissed that you didn't have a PPU on your side?
So take the 'POS' class outta the game.. you lose in every respect. Once you have your levels you think you don't need PPUS no more... when you were once that whining little guy in the cave shouting "HEAL FFS"?
Different solution to your particular argument: Remove safezones. Then you can fight where you want and not worry about PPUs butting in as you can take your fight elsewhere. Take it as a compliment that your oponents needed back-up and don't dis my sub-class... Oh and read what I said not the first few lines.
Oh and when you see the hundreds of people who don't like PPUs point em this way won't you?
@mdares
Muppet
@Scikar
Do you live in LA LA land? Seriously you still want us to buff you up and heal you etc, but we have to be weak aswell. Support Class my arse. You're talking outta yours. The PPU relies on his team to defend him/her already. WTF r u going on about? Yes we have the best ACTUAL defence. No we can't kill other runners on our own (within reason), so what is your point? What will taking our defences away from us do? Nothing. Except gimp your team and everyone elses.
Does that MiG stand for Men in Green, Saturn Server? I certainly hope not.
@ everyone...
If you haven't already, play a PPU. It's one of the most rewarding classes as everything is not all about self, self, self. I recommend you see both sides of the story before you criticise.
Seriously. Get rid of PPUs... That leaves PEs to rule the roost. Then the threads will start about them, then TANKs, then APUs... then it will leave SPYs.
Everyone will be on an even keel. Nothing can be moaned about as far as class and skills go. Then what....
The same people who are whinging now will start callin the people who regularly kick their arses CHEATERS because they have nothing else to whinge about. And... because they have no skillz.
NERF BAT WIELDING FAIRIES :cool:
Shelters and Deflectors should be "foreign cast" nerfed, they
should do the same thing on others as on the caster, however
the effect of the highest shelters, deflectors and heals should be
nerfed heavily, to around half of their current effectiveness.
Parashock is a problem, remove it it's ok. But if shelter/deflector/heal are nerfed so heavily i think you wouldn't see ppu anymore.
Ppu can't solo (please don't speak about Soucluster, try to hunt with it before). Ppu can't kill (ok atm we can with soucluster/parashock and that's a problem, remove that). And now you want them to be easy target ?
And ppu aren't immortal, a few goods ones are nearly unkillable, but i saw alot of ppu that don't need alot of people to kill them, and without any apu. And their level is not bad, but have you played a ppu ? If no try it, and then tell me if it is as easy as you may think.
You realy hate ppu, don't you ? But i think that they helped you alot to leveling ? If you're a Pe, sorry, it's right you don't need a ppu, this class is so fast to cap.
muppet... o_O
anyway i think jest has a point as it makes apu not the only class to take down ppus but gives it a point of balance... and my suggestion of making it a weapon that all classes (rifle and pistols) can use means PEs and spies can contribute as well as tanks.
and most people duint like NF because its bugged as hell...
but then u have a good idea with the remove safezones but i think that would in the long run just make more people get ppus with them everywhere they go... but then i dunno it might work... we'll need to experiment with some of these ideas i guess.
Shadow Dancer
15-10-03, 23:56
Originally posted by mdares
muppet... o_O
anyway i think jest has a point as it makes apu not the only class to take down ppus but gives it a point of balance... and my suggestion of making it a weapon that all classes (rifle and pistols) can use means PEs and spies can contribute as well as tanks.
I totally understand not wanting ppus to be so needed, and I think debuffing weapons for all classes might be a good idea. But i can't help but feel it's a little unfair to the apu since now everyone is getting a skill only he had. Imagine how spies would feel if everyone could stealth.
Originally posted by Shelia
Parashock is a problem, remove it it's ok. But if shelter/deflector/heal are nerfed so heavily i think you wouldn't see ppu anymore.
Ppu can't solo (please don't speak about Soucluster, try to hunt with it before). Ppu can't kill (ok atm we can with soucluster/parashock and that's a problem, remove that). And now you want them to be easy target ?
And ppu aren't immortal, a few goods ones are nearly unkillable, but i saw alot of ppu that don't need alot of people to kill them, and without any apu. And their level is not bad, but have you played a ppu ? If no try it, and then tell me if it is as easy as you may think.
You realy hate ppu, don't you ? But i think that they helped you alot to leveling ? If you're a Pe, sorry, it's right you don't need a ppu, this class is so fast to cap.
I capped 3 chars around christmas last year, until I finally settled
for this one and stopped. There were no PPUs around there, and
few monks, we didnt need them to level then and we dont need
them now. And yes, I really really hate PPUs, if I stop playing
again PPUs and nothing else will be the reason. That class is
taking away from the joy in the game in such a big fashion that I
dont even feel to make jokes about it anymore, its just sad. And
no, I dont want a PPU on my side in a fight either, its not about
me having lost against people with PPUs. If a PPU shows up on
either side of the battle I just walk away, because its not fun
anymore. Doesnt matter what side the PPU is on, the challenge is
gone.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I totally understand not wanting ppus to be so needed, and I think debuffing weapons for all classes might be a good idea. But i can't help but feel it's a little unfair to the apu since now everyone is getting a skill only he had. Imagine how spies would feel if everyone could stealth.
actually if my apu can stealth i wuldnt mind :D
STEALTH APU ATTACK! ONOZ!!!!1111
Void Dildano
16-10-03, 00:01
Originally posted by Original monk
snipped : big load of counterwhine
Seriously, haven't it been established that the game is further decending into more and more monk chars for PvP?
People adressing the issue of PPUs ruining the fun or thrill of battle aren't by default whiners.
Clearly, a large part thinks neocron totally decended into monkcron. Since this is a big problem if players stop playing then KK MUST and WILL deal with it. So lets get a dicussion about it before they take the fun out of playing monk by nerfing the monkclass too much. If people like Original Monk cant see the problem and discuss reasonable changes then he will be left out when(not if) KK restricts/nerfs/changes monkclass. And that will also be bad for the game. (just notice the amount of "remove parachock" "make ppumonks easy to kill for anyone with antibuff weapon" "I Hate ppu, remove it")
/Void
I personally still think lowering PPU spell max below-the-line stats to 400% something (still would take the same amount of skillpoints to cap out as the the old 600+% ) would give an effect that would be noticable for nonPPU players to notice without making PPu monks useless,pointless or booring.
Shadow Dancer
16-10-03, 00:05
Even though I don't like him, :rolleyes:, I totally agree with Rade. If anything will make me quit the game it will be PPUs. Or maybe if the population gets to low, but mostly it will be ppus. THey totally ruin PvP. I can't believe the ghost of an army my clan has become because of the shortage of monks now. Barely any ppus, no apus to take out the overimportant PPUs of the enemy clans. It's rediculous. You can kill 5 people at an op by yourself, and if they stay there then you KNOW damn well that their little "pet" is coming to ressurect them.
My apu solo leveled. My spy solo levels. Trust me I would be able to live just fine without any ppus. Don't forget PPUs are the same damn reason KK increased the power of the mobs in the game. I hate ppus with a passion. And one reason I also hate them is the "hybrid" syndrome most PPUs are affected with.
What's the hybrid syndrome? When someone doesn't think there's anything wrong with their class AT ALL. Did KK hurt hybrids too badly? Yes I think so. Did those very hybrids have a role in that? Yes I think so as well. Most hybrids were too busy coming up with all sorts of lame excuses to justify their class. I remember a couple of them saying "so what if a hybrid can't be taken out by 1-2 people? THis is a team game" or "we're bad at op wars, so we should dominate 1v1" or all sorts of crap. And they did NOTHING to help the discussion of balancing hybrids. And now look what has happened to the class. BAH!
EDIT: I remember when the problem of PPUs started to become more and more apparent. It was when specialization "bonus" for pure monks was introduced, as well as PSI mods for spells. So not only did a ppu's shelter and heal(especially heal) become stronger, but now they were able to use mods which they have never had before to cap their protection spells.
I still think that APUs dont deserve antibuff. They have the best
damage output in the game, thats enough. You dont need
anything beyond that, thats enough reason for a class to exist.
Imo this would be a good setup for the neocron:
APU monks, amazing damage output in close to medium range,
poor defence. Might have a int or dex tradeskill with some
gimpage.
PPU monks, healing and buffage, shelter, deflectors and heals a
little worse than they are now. No parashock. Might have a int or
dex tradeskill with some gimpage.
H-C Tanks, great damage in close to medium range, great
defence. Can easily have a dex tradeskill.
Melee Tanks, amazing damage output at point blank, great
defence. Can easily have a dex tradeskill.
Rifle PEs, decent damage output short-medium-long range.
decent defence. Some toys such as stealth, a antibuff techtool,
maybe some special grenades. Possibly hacking or poking with a
slight gimpage.
Pistol PEs, great damage output at close range, crappy at
medium range, decent defence. Some toys such as stealth, a
antibuff techtool, maybe some special grenades. Possibly hacking
or poking with a slight gimpage.
Rifle Spies, great damage output at close range, crappy at
medium range, poor defence. Some toys such as stealth, a
antibuff techtool, maybe some special grenades. Easily hacking or
poking or a slight gimpage and researching or constructing.
Pistol Spies, decent damage output short-medium-long range.
poor defence. Some toys such as stealth, a antibuff techtool,
maybe some special grenades. Easily hacking or poking or a
slight gimpage and researching or constructing.
This is pretty easy to achieve by just modifying Neocron from its
current situation. If I were designing Neocron from the core it
would be completely different, but thats another story. This is
where I think we should be heading from here.
Shadow Dancer
16-10-03, 00:16
Talk about biased.
@ SD
1. You won't admit that what I say about HP is right will you? You've played a PPU by your own admission and it does fuck all compared to what it does when your capped does it? Don;t patronise me.
2. No you're not talking about High level PvP and its my strongest point. Your topics say "parashock" and not holy paralysis, and you also include the sub-class PPU in your rants. Your aim is to Nerf the whole class and as I have previously stated, you don't take into account the lesser PPUs (easily ganked @ PSI 100 total by skilled players 1v1 or 1v0 as i call it) and you don;t take into account that PPU is the hardest class to level.
3. Your esteemed colleague actually pointed out that PPUs can use weapons. Yes we can. Why can't we use them with parashock? You still don't explain why? I've already stated in one of your previous threads that PPUs were more dangerous with weapons than HP.
4. I take your point in this one... I should have said in 1v1 PvP. and Offensively to the point of killing as in Paraspam in its truer form. Still... don't take the lord's name in vain.
5. Do I even PVP? Yes. With all classes. Do you? Or do you stand in plaza?
6. Fact is mate. Even in Beta the 2 different monk sub-classes were the most powerful when they combined. Only when the Hybrid revolution came to pass did KK address it. Of which I was not a complainer. HL and HP hit a lot harder then. So yes todays Neo is Monk-O-Cron... but then it always has been. What's your point? Oh tanks had a bit of an insurgance with their freezer cannons! Happy Days... did you cry to Nerf that? Do some RP and ask your freindly enemies for a no-monk fight to test your theory. You will still want the Rez. and no PPU is gonna stand round and just do that for you. Go to Neofrag.
7. Dominating OP wars? You what? In the age of PEs ganking tanks left, right and centre you have the balls to say this when PPUs don't do anything other than try and save their own clan-members and the occasional HP if you can get one in, which happens on both sides (balance anyone). I've already outlined what spoils OP fights and you didn;t take a blind piece of notice.
8. I don't give a toss about your clan.
9. If you can advertise your point then I can advertise my counter-digust. That's fair IMO.
10. I called you an imbecile because I find you opinionated and deaf to experienced runners.
11. PPUs only ruin the game when you die without a Rez.
12. You're yet to tell me anything detrimental about the game that I haven't been able to answer within reason.
Oh and stop highlighting bits of people's replies man. Firstly you don't show the whole picture and you highlight things that can be misconstrued a la tabloid newspapers. It also insults people's intelligence by implying that they haven't already read that piece of this particular thread.
NERF BAT WAVING FAIRIES :cool:
Aww shadow, you know you will luv me again tomorrow ;)
Shadow Dancer
16-10-03, 00:31
Originally posted by Rade
Aww shadow, you know you will luv me again tomorrow ;)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
@ SD
1. You won't admit that what I say about HP is right will you? You've played a PPU by your own admission and it does fuck all compared to what it does when your capped does it? Don;t patronise me.
I didn't "admit" it was right, because I assumed everyone knew it was right. It's common knowledge damage percent affects strength of para.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
2. No you're not talking about High level PvP and its my strongest point. Your topics say "parashock" and not holy paralysis, and you also include the sub-class PPU in your rants. Your aim is to Nerf the whole class and as I have previously stated, you don't take into account the lesser PPUs (easily ganked @ PSI 100 total by skilled players 1v1 or 1v0 as i call it) and you don;t take into account that PPU is the hardest class to level.
Your strongest point, lol ok. My topics range from parashock, to PPUs in general. Who cares if PPU is the hardest class to level? That doesnt' justify their overpowered nature. PEs are the easiest to level, does that mean that they should be the gimpiest?
Well........:D j/k
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
3. Your esteemed colleague actually pointed out that PPUs can use weapons. Yes we can. Why can't we use them with parashock? You still don't explain why? I've already stated in one of your previous threads that PPUs were more dangerous with weapons than HP.
Because the weapons do crap damage, so it doesn't matter if ppus can use them. However if a PPU can glue you to the floor he can kill you easily with those weapons since you can't dodge them and will be dead by the time you find an exit.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
5. Do I even PVP? Yes. With all classes. Do you? Or do you stand in plaza?
I live for PvP.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
6. Fact is mate. Even in Beta the 2 different monk sub-classes were the most powerful when they combined. Only when the Hybrid revolution came to pass did KK address it. Of which I was not a complainer. HL and HP hit a lot harder then. So yes todays Neo is Monk-O-Cron... but then it always has been. What's your point? Oh tanks had a bit of an insurgance with their freezer cannons! Happy Days... did you cry to Nerf that? Do some RP and ask your freindly enemies for a no-monk fight to test your theory. You will still want the Rez. and no PPU is gonna stand round and just do that for you. Go to Neofrag.
Who gives a f*** about beta2? I'm talking about the here and now.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
7. Dominating OP wars? You what? In the age of PEs ganking tanks left, right and centre you have the balls to say this when PPUs don't do anything other than try and save their own clan-members and the occasional HP if you can get one in, which happens on both sides (balance anyone). I've already outlined what spoils OP fights and you didn;t take a blind piece of notice.
They dominate op wars because you need them for op wars to such a rediculous degree. When do you hear "oh shit we don't have a PE for this op war"? You don't. But i definitely hear "shit, they got 5 ppus online, how many we got? 1? none? damn maybe next time". I'm so freaking tired of that. You can't do anything without ppus. And if the enemy has more monks, then you need more monks. It's all about monks.
And um......."occasional" HP? rooooofl
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
8. I don't give a toss about your clan.
You don't give a toss about anyone.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
10. I called you an imbecile because I find you opinionated and deaf to experienced runners.
What the hell does being opinionated have to do with being an imbecile? And if i'm deaf to experienced runners then why do so many people agree with me? Please, you're just annoyed and tossed out a flame, that's it.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
11. PPUs only ruin the game when you die without a Rez.
Nope. Even in the great wars or battles that I won, I still thought that ppus ruin the game. I've been thinking that for a good while now.
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
12. You're yet to tell me anything detrimental about the game that I haven't been able to answer within reason.
you haven't answered the fact that they are so goddamn needed, with reason. Do you think that's ok? If so, then why? Not everyone has a damn ppu. Their not sold at YO's. You don't think there's anything wrong with having to turn back or run away because you don't have a ppu and the enemy has 2? You don't think there's anything wrong with not being able to go to an op war because you don't have a sub-class of a class?
Originally posted by ]v[ortice
Oh and stop highlighting bits of people's replies man.
What the hell are you talking about? I just do that so you know specifically to what i'm replying.
People have been warning KK since the beginning of the extreme need of specialization and intoduction of the Psi Mods that it will only be a matter of time till more and more monks will be seen on the battlefield.
I remember a thread in the german forum in APRIL (2003) that showed all the imbalance. Since then people have been constantly complaining about monks... nothing changed...
I gave up talking and talking (and NC) long ago...
only thing that remained is my sig
Here's the translation:
Play with (and against) thousands of Monks online in the post monkcalyptic world of the 28th century. You become either a immortal or instant-aim-damagedealer monk of one of the last Monk mega cities on Earth (Monkocron) and it is up to you whether you want to experience exciting Monk adventures or just lead a normal life as a Tank, Spy or PE in this virtual world.
KRIMINAL99
16-10-03, 02:03
Originally posted by Original monk
i am sick of people missquoting me or not reading my post before (over)reacting :rolleyes:
i repeat: master of offense: apu
master of defense: ppu
so in youre opinion a ppu is only good to buff people (to be their buffbitch) but he isnt supposed to keep emself alive in even the most crazy situations (example mc5: 4 maybe even 5 copbotlike beings shooting at you simultaniously, and the libby-engineer, or more common: 15 chaoscave critters and a chaosqueen shooting you)
The example of this is to give every class anti buff weapons thats what I said at the start of the thread. Anyways the strenght of mobs like MC5 commander can be changed right now it is set specifically to cater to the extremeoverpoweredness of PPUs and before Hybrids.
But PVM ability isnt anywhere near as big a deal as PVP ability is. Yes PPU's should be able to be killed, thats the only thing thats fair. They do alot for their teamates and they have alot of special abilities. It should then be the teammates jobs to protect their ppus in OP fights to keep their support. Not instead it being they dont even have to think twice about the ppu because hes practically invincible.
Its funny how the slightest amount of inconvenience will justify and infinite amount of rewards in everyones mind... Like the hybrid who said they werent overpowered because he had to rebuff every once in a while :rolleyes: .
Anyways these discussion may very well be pointless until KK finds a new publisher, with them having a 3 person programming team. I can only hope when they do higher more people they put someone in control of overall game design plan who takes one look at this game and pisses himself shouting " HOLY SH!! THIS GAME IS ROYALLY SCREWED!!! WHATD YALL DO??!??!?"
I think it's about time to hang up the PPU topic. Not because I don't agree. Because KK has to have realised by now that something needs done. They just have to figure out what.
On the original topic, I think a Dex based corpse remover would be better than debuff weapons. Psychic ability isn't something that should be affected by technology.
At least then a PE, tank, and a spy would actually be able to win a fight against a PPU and any other 2 people (in spirit at least, they'll still never get rid of that PPU, unless maybe they shoot so much that armor starts getting wrecked.)
@ Everyone that thinks things are just fine how they are- print this thread out and show it to a few people that have never played or even heard of this game before (a grammar/language/english/debate teacher would be best, since some of you seem immature enough to still be in gradeshool), and ask their opinion on the "PPU's are overpowered" subject. I bet they all say the same thing. The evidence and arguments would be obvious even to someone that's never played before.
The only NERf that is needed is the effect of holy para (koff \stun traps).
I play most classes on and offf (my main being PPU ok but hey) bit bored of a PPU atm (yes PPus getold not being able to kill) PPus are great, they make the fight last longer they dont take the skill out of the game AT ALL except the MAJOR effect of holy para. (the game was LESS fun when it was PARAcron).
Nerf PARA and we are all happy.
Everyother factor i 100% agree withmortice.
KRIMINAL99
16-10-03, 15:45
oO Video games arent about realism they are about balance. Since psychic ability doesn't exist in real life, and any gun could kill someone in one shot, how do you think you have a leg to stand on talking about tech not effecting psychic ability? Maybe they have a antipsi field who knows... And all that matters is weather you can communicate your ideas or not and weather your ideas are worth anything.. The grammar/spelling insults made by psuedo-intelligent wannabes get really old after a while considering that half the people on these boards didn't start with english as a first language.
Anyways what use is a corpse remover? The ppu's only players are sitting here talking about removing their support capabilities but keeping them invincible... That is rediculous. The ppu is a support character not an Invincibility character... Once again no player has the right to be invincible, It was probably never planned that any player should be invincible to that level. Its just absolutely rediculous. PPU's need to be able to be killed much easier.
Voodoochicken
16-10-03, 18:22
This has all been discussed before in much more detail and with better solutions.
[One point I saw was that a Mortice claims to only do 20 damage to a cyclops after he's damage boosted it (3 times?).
With my rank 16/27 pure PPU, using the TL 8 Crahn Holy ParaShock Bolt (combined with damage boost) I can hit cyclopses for 43 damage.
Anyway. If you don't yet max damage on HP then there's nothing stopping a PPU switching to the TL 8 spell to do more damage.]
The problem in this game isn't only pure PPUs. It's the PPU skill itself.
So this includes all classes to a degree, with pure PPUs and PEs at the top of the pile.
(This means that a lot of PEs are going to have to take some hits along with PPUs, whether they like it or not.
Of course this probably just means that nothing will get done due to PPUs and PEs complaining.. bloody hypocrites that they are.)
However, stun type weapons also need to be fixed:
1a) The stun effect on all parashock type spells should be "fixed".
ie. not increase as TL increases.
eg. stun effect of TL 8 spell = 40%, stun effect of HP = 40%
1b) The duration of para spells should all be the same and much lower than atm.
eg. 5 seconds max
1c) The spells should be differentiated by range/damage/psi cost
2a) Anti shock drugs and spells should be removed
Then there's damage boost:
1a) Effect of damage boost needs to be significantly decreased
eg. half of the current damage boost and duration.
And the shields/heals:
1a) Max effect of (holy) psi deflectors/shelters should be 40-50%, with the standard shelter/deflector having a max effect of 15%
1b) The magnitude of "Foreign cast" shield effects should be the same as self-cast.
1c) The magnitude of "foreign cast" heals could be decreased slightly (see 2b)
2a) Anti- shield/heal spells should be removed to reflect the fact that even a pure PPU's defence has been significantly weakened
2b) Cast cost of heal spells could be increased, along with healing more health per cast.
ie. a PPU's main defence is healing quickly, NOT blocking 97% of the damage being thrown at them. This should mean that increasing the number of people attacking a PPU will have more effect than it currently does.
After making these types of changes, you then need to see what else might need tweaking to balance things up properly.
(and incase people decide to complain about places like Chaos caves, etc., being too hard.
It is worth considering that mobs were made stronger because of how powerful PPUs/shields, etc. were. So it's therefore possible that mobs will be weakened if PPU is also weakened.
Also:
It is possible to survive in the chaos caves as a mid lvl APU or as a low lvl PPU, etc. etc. WITHOUT a highish lvl PPU buffing/healing/resurrecting you.
When I was leveling an APU there, it was pathetic watching how often people died, even though they had PPU buffs and heals.
I remained unbuffed and used medikits to heal, but hardly died.
The fact that people just throw themselves into the middle of 5 *** mobs when a PPU is there is bad tactics.. that's all.
Some people are obsessed with standing ontop of mobs because "they do more damage that way"... and guess what?.. they also die that way.)
DB boost was significantly decreased some time ago or do people forget you could stack DB?
Actually I put people on ignore who whine now about nerfing. Not the ones who suggest ideas but the ones who say that the class must be removed or make anal suggestions.
It's amazing but you can easily see that way that 90% of content of these threads contain those small group of people complaining. Same record. (not you voodoo, seeing as I answered in reply to you)
Voodoochicken
16-10-03, 18:48
Damage boost is a little pet hate of mine, however, reducing it's effect further was based on some logic.
Decreasing the power of damage boost by more:
- Decreases a pure PPU's offence
- Slightly strengthens the PPUs defence (especially when outnumbered)
-Reflects the fact that I want to decrease the effect of shields
(ie. leaving dmg boost the same would actually be increasing its power. :))
That's, imo, of course.
[Plus, I've had damage boost practically double my damage against warbots, etc.. which is slightly OTT.]
I don't have a problem with DB. A ppu can damage boost someone and at least they still have a chance of surviving. The parashock is the killer.
Originally posted by Elric
Tank-a-cron my ass. I could easily take out Tanks as a PE and a Spy, thats with all the weapon classes, Drones Pistols and Rifles. Chances of taking out a monk with any of the above... 0.
yeah a PE can easily take out a tank thus PE-O-CRON
and don't on no it won't PE's are the best non MONK PVP class atm
then ppl would just bitch about that :/
PPU are fine as they are except perhaps the dmg holy para shock does
I think its paralasis effect should be increased a bit but its dmg removed :)
at that elric dude.....you suck.
so there is 0% chance for a tank/pe/spy to kill any kind of monk?
ffs, you can kill a ppu as a tank!
Shadow Dancer
16-10-03, 20:22
Originally posted by hose187
I think it's about time to hang up the PPU topic. Not because I don't agree. Because KK has to have realised by now that something needs done. They just have to figure out what.
Well actually I agree. Pretty much everything that should be said, has been said.
Originally posted by Archeus
Actually I put people on ignore who whine now about nerfing. Not the ones who suggest ideas but the ones who say that the class must be removed or make anal suggestions.
I guess you would have to put yourself on ignore since you barely add anything, just reply to complain about people whining(due to your lack of self-control because you can't help but clicking on a thread that you claim you are tired of), and basically holier-than-thou attitude.
And elric like I said, if you cant' kill an apu(who doesn't have a ppu up his rectum), then perhaps you need to take a look at what you're doing and your skill level.
KRIMINAL99
17-10-03, 03:42
I personally agree that parashock is kinda unbalanced, but I think its much more important that PPUs be made more killable. There is a bigger responsibility to even out PVP between single players than there is to balance their role in OP fights (not to say that is not important.) Besides if they are made to be able to be killed parashock will be used differently and may very well be perfectly balanced. IE they will parashock someone and run away as opposed to running someone down and parashocking them to death because they will be killed before they can kill the other person.
All I have to say is this:
There is not a fair chance of a PPU losing to an equal level player of a different class in 1v1. 1 person versus one person, no class has the right to dominate any other class thereby invalidating all the leveling and item gathering the weaker class has done by making them totally worthless (Unless that weaker 1v1 class has some extreme value in group fighting- which is only the ppu). The only class that has a chance against a equal skilled ppu user in duel were both parties are ready (Not sneaking up on ppu when hes not buffed, but that only makes it about 50/50 chance) is an apu, and his chance isnt any big one.
1v1 in Neocron is just as important as group fighting and something has to be done to fix this. As long as PPUs can outheal a single players damage consistently the class is overpowered no matter how little damage they do. Even if they did no damage its still not fair that the class can outheal a single other player and affect him in any way shape of form. And if anyone has a reason why this isnt true Id love to hear it because its going to be selfish if it addresses what i just said and point out that arguments defending ppus current state are illegitimate.
Originally posted by RuButt
at that elric dude.....you suck.
so there is 0% chance for a tank/pe/spy to kill any kind of monk?
ffs, you can kill a ppu as a tank!
Only if you're prepared to put up with being branded an exploiter for using tl3 heal. :rolleyes:
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