To Anyone That Believes Parashock Is A Balanced

[ghandisfury]

I'll tell you what. I will put my money where my mouth is. I will bet any player on pluto with 5-1 odds. Meaning that if you put up 100k, I will put up 500k. If you want to bet MC5 chips, I'll bet mine against yours plus 2 million (this exclude riggers and hawkins).

Here is the bet. I challenge anybody on Pluto to a duel. Everybody will use thier own buffs, and it will be proven by a /set kill self for both parties. You will be constantly parashocked, and damage boosted. There will be no interaction from the PPU other than parashock and damage boosting you (meaning I will use my own buffs, and he will not heal me). If a fight ends in a draw (wich will only happen if I'm fighting a PPU) then all bets are a draw. NOTE if you are a PPU, you are unable to parashock, damage boost, or cat sanctum.

I am not saying I'm uber...not anywhere close. I know of many players that can beet me. What I'm saying is that I don't need to be uber if the person you are fighting is parashocked.

[Lexxuk]

sure, as long as I can bring along my PPU to parashock and dmg boost you too, oh, thats right PPU's are only useful when they are on "your" side :rolleyes:

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Lexxuk
sure, as long as I can bring along my PPU to parashock and dmg boost you too, oh, thats right PPU's are only useful when they are on "your" side :rolleyes:


NO.....that's the point. I am a descent player, beeten by many. However, I beleive that I can beet ANY player if they are shocked and damage boosted.

And "only usefull when on 'your' side" :rolleyes: PPUs are usefull, and required in some cases, but that horrible spell isn't.

Please read the challenge again, if you want to partake in it, my name is the same ingame.

[Owain]

It would have to be just parashock and not Dmg boost if you are tring to prove that para is overpowered. Otherwise the result would be Para + DB = overpowered according to your test.

[Kenjuten]

I don't believe this will help, ghandi.

A better example of trying to prove parashock and damage boost isn't balanced may be to have a 2v2 team, with a PPU on each side, with the PPUs doing nothing else but healing, buffing, parashocking, and damage boosting, the other two people fighting each other and don't bother fighting the PPUs. The decision would be decided if one of the non-PPU fighters falls. If it turns out to be a draw (no side can kill the other), perhaps then it can be shown.

Theoretically.

It's rare for there to be equal numbers of PPU on both sides, thus it goes to say that force in numbers does overpower the (average) loner.

Therefore, I find this challenge pointless by reasoning of debunk. I think you should try to find another, better way of trying to prove your point.

(And for those that didn't catch it, I pointed out something else that was critical, in one of the above paragraphs. I support the belief that there are certain things in this game that are game-mechanically 'broken'.)

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Kenjuten
I don't believe this will help, ghandi.

A better example of trying to prove parashock and damage boost isn't balanced may be to have a 2v2 team, with a PPU on each side, with the PPUs doing nothing else but healing, buffing, parashocking, and damage boosting, the other two people fighting each other and don't bother fighting the PPUs. The decision would be decided if one of the non-PPU fighters falls. If it turns out to be a draw (no side can kill the other), perhaps then it can be shown.

Theoretically.

It's rare for there to be equal numbers of PPU on both sides, thus it goes to say that force in numbers does overpower the (average) loner.

Therefore, I find this challenge pointless by reasoning of debunk. I think you should try to find another, better way of trying to prove your point.

(And for those that didn't catch it, I pointed out something else that was critical, in one of the above paragraphs. I support the belief that there are certain things in this game that are game-mechanically 'broken'.)

No, because then theoreticaly both players would be "equal". My point is that parashock and damageboost are unbalanced, and I think that this will prove my point quite effectively. The PPU will have no interaction of any kind to myself. So in effect we are "equal" aside from parashock.

I'll say it again, I'm not a good player....my aim sucks, and I'm constantly working on my resists, but I am certain that I will win if you're parashocked, damage boosted, and I'm not.

[Kenjuten]

You basically reiterated my point...but thanks O_o

Listen man, 2v1 of course someone's gonna get toasted unless they have better skill and/or equipment than the other two.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Kenjuten
You basically reiterated my point...but thanks O_o

Listen man, 2v1 of course someone's gonna get toasted unless they have better skill and/or equipment than the other two.

WTF??? It is not 2vs1, I'll take a PPU and a PE on any day of the week if the PPU doesn't parashock or damage boost me. Read the challenge again. The only interaction the PPU will have in the fight is parashock and damage boost. He will not heal or buff or shelter/deflect me.

If you would like, we will duel before the "test" and see the winner (without anybody intereacting), then we will duel again with you damage boosted and parashocked.

[SigmaDraconis]

why DB him..and why cant dueling PPU's DB...has no relation to the balance of parashock and why cant PPU's cast sanctum? or do you just mean catharsis sanctum? And if thats the case can they use single cast Anti-para spells?

[Rizzy]

What class are you?

[SigmaDraconis]

Ghandi is a pistol PE..unless he plans on using his PPU o.0

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
why DB him..and why cant dueling PPU's DB...has no relation to the balance of parashock and why cant PPU's cast sanctum? or do you just mean catharsis sanctum? And if thats the case can they use single cast Anti-para spells?

Because I'm trying to point out the fact that

#1 drugs are useless
#2 parashock takes the skill away from PvP

And if I am not parashocked or damage boosted, you will loose.

EDIT yes, you can use single cast anti-para

@ Rizzy, I will be fighting with my PE.

[Kenjuten]

I re-read your challenge, Ghandi.

(It still sounds vague as hell though.)

From what I understand, you want a duel. This duel, consists of you and a PPU versus anyone. The PPU will not be able to heal you or buff you. However, he will be able to parashock and damage boost the opponent.

I hope you do realize this is about the same effect as an additional gun (or two, notice I'm being generous) and indirectly making way for a 2v1 PvP combat session, with massive stipulations involved.

I still find your challenge pointless, and a waste of time. Please tell me how this works to your understanding and benefit so I can reach what you're trying to do in your challenge. I understand your words, but not your mind, if I am wrong to you.

[Marx]

I still find your challenge pointless, and a waste of time. Please tell me how this works to your understanding and benefit so I can reach what you're trying to do in your challenge. I understand your words, but not your mind, if I am wrong to you.

He's trying to make a point - do you not see it?

[SigmaDraconis]

You still didnt answer why you have the restrictions on DB..

any way ken..hes showing that a parad person
A) cannot counter attack for shit
B) is an easy target for even the newbiest runner and therefore an easy kill..pretty much no matter what their skill is.

You seem to be saying that the para gives ghandi a hell of an advantage...yet at the same time you say you dont see the point of the test :rolleyes:

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Kenjuten
I re-read your challenge, Ghandi.

(It still sounds vague as hell though.)

From what I understand, you want a duel. This duel, consists of you and a PPU versus anyone. The PPU will not be able to heal you or buff you. However, he will be able to parashock and damage boost the opponent.

I hope you do realize this is about the same effect as an additional gun (or two, notice I'm being generous) and indirectly making way for a 2v1 PvP combat session, with massive stipulations involved.

I still find your challenge pointless, and a waste of time. Please tell me how this works to your understanding and benefit so I can reach what you're trying to do in your challenge. I understand your words, but not your mind, if I am wrong to you.

The point is that you are probably a better player than I am. You probably have better aim. You might have a better setup, or be using a more powerfull weapon. You might be drugged like Ozzy, and have the resists that come close to god_mode.....but none of this matters when you are parashocked and damage boosted. All of your skill goes right out the window....remember those countless LOMs you've popped? All for not. How about the time, and energy you've spent on getting that five slotter? Nope, doesn't mean a thing. If you are parashocked and damage boosted, you_will_lose.

If you don't believe me, then take the challenge. I think it's a pretty good trade off. You can bet nothing, or you can bet MC5 chips....your call.

[KidWithStick]

w00t.

good idea, this will prove how fucked up parashock is.

[alig]

*cough*....packs anti-freeze drugs....

I dont play pluto anyway...but maybe you should not include anti-drugs....

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by alig
*cough*....packs anti-freeze drugs....

I dont play pluto anyway...but maybe you should not include anti-drugs....

Bring all you like......but please please please bet your MC5 chip.

[Kenjuten]

Hm.

Perhaps I should put the word pointless, in a different sense.

You see, this point of yours is already proven in the countless OP fights, PvP combat sessions, etc. in game.

My use of the word pointless is termed as such that it is indeed a waste of time.

I see your point, very well so, for I have stated that I do understand your words.

I however do not feel this is a very good way to show it. And that's my opinion.

I said that yes, parashock and damage boost will give ghandi an advantage. But the way you're going about to simulate the problem, especially in the form of a bet, doesn't make much sense.

You have given yourself the space to be able to either take someone's bet or call a draw. Sounds a lot like one-armed bandits in casinos as well as tweaked games in boardwalks within amusement parks.

If your challenge is in jest, and you seriously believe no one would take up this challenge, that's all cool.

But the way you are setting it up, is as such that it follows the rule of Numbers moreso than trying to help show how overpowered Parashock and Damage boost is.

2 is always greater than 1 in quantity.
1 can be greater than 2 in quality.
But the latter rarely shadows over the former.

Make YOURSELF become the PPU, turn this into a 1v1 duel outright, and then I will feel better about this challenge of yours.

P.S.: I don't PvP. I never intended on taking you up on your challenge, and trying to bait me into trying to duel something impossible as this won't help you. =P

What I'm trying to do here is point out how your challenge setup to me shows more about the proven rule of Numbers than how Parashock and Damage boost is unbalanced, and as a result makes this challenge pointless because your end result strayed from what you have been trying to accomplish.

Edit: Had to take out some unnecessary/duplicated words to make it all more clarified. ^^

[Judge]

Originally posted by alig
*cough*....packs anti-freeze drugs....

I dont play pluto anyway...but maybe you should not include anti-drugs....

And you really think that the anti-freeze drugs will help you in the slightest?

Good idea ghandis. It should prove that para is f00000000ked up.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Kenjuten
You see, this point of yours is already proven in the countless OP fights, PvP combat sessions, etc. in game.

I know this, but many people seem to think that this spell is a good tactic, and needs to stay in the game.



Originally posted by Kenjuten
I said that yes, parashock and damage boost will give ghandi an advantage. But the way you're going about to simulate the problem, especially in the form of a bet, doesn't make much sense.

It makes perfect sense for the format. I will not have any possotive effects from the PPU, and the opponent will only have the negative effects (which are win_or_lose determaning). As far as the bet goes, I wanted to see how many of the "but I need it for defence", and "how would we kill a PE", and "just take antishock drugs...problem solved" people would take me up on it. You can see the outcome.


Originally posted by Kenjuten
You have given yourself the space to be able to either take someone's bet or call a draw. Sounds a lot like one-armed bandits in casinos as well as tweaked games in boardwalks within amusement parks.

The draw will only be determined if I am fighting a PPU for the simple fact that it's extreamly hard to kill a PPU 1vs1.


Originally posted by Kenjuten
But the way you are setting it up, is as such that it follows the rule of Numbers moreso than trying to help show how overpowered Parashock and Damage boost is.

2 is always greater than 1 in quantity.
1 can be greater than 2 in quality.
But the latter rarely shadows over the former..

I fight regularly solo. I kill many in outnumbered odds (I also die frequently...this is not an ego trip). So again, it's not a 2vs1 scenario, it's a parashock/damage boost vs not parashock/damageboosted.


Originally posted by Kenjuten
Make YOURSELF become the PPU, turn this into a 1v1 duel outright, and then I will feel better about this challenge of yours.

I am......and I have.....


Originally posted by Kenjuten
P.S.: I don't PvP. I never intended on taking you up on your challenge, and trying to bait me into trying to duel something impossible as this won't help you. =P

Then don't presume to know the difference from fighting a team of 3 or 4 and winning....then fighting one person (of whom you just killed)and having him beet you because his PPU parashocked and damage boosted you.

[Owain]

This isn't even a valid test. You know why? CAUSE THERE ARE TWO variables; damage boost and parashock.

Of course the person with a db on him is going to be disadvantaged, your fucking gun does more damage.

Hell even having a so called 1v1 with one person being HP spammed isn't really 1v1, it is 2v1.


A better test would be a 2v2 with the ppu para spaming the two fighters while you try to kill them. THAT will prove that HP is overpowered.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Owain
This isn't even a valid test. You know why? CAUSE THERE ARE TWO variables; damage boost and parashock.

Of course the person with a db on him is going to be disadvantaged, your fucking gun does more damage.

Hell even having a so called 1v1 with one person being HP spammed isn't really 1v1, it is 2v1.


A better test would be a 2v2 with the ppu para spaming the two fighters while you try to kill them. THAT will prove that HP is overpowered.

WHAT???? How will that prove my point? By having both of us parashocked it only proves who has better resists. With my methond, I will take on any tank/PE/APU/spie/ PPU in the game, and beat them every time if they are parashocked and damage boosted.

Your method is like saying "I think that boxers shouldn't be allowed to move. They should only be able to punch and take hits....that's the only way to prove a good fighter."

I am saying that you take any fighter, of any class, with any weapons, and I will be him any time if he is parashocked and damage boosted.....2 pages and still no takers. Wonder why....

[Judge]

Owain, he is trying to prove that even a less than average skill person (sorry ghandi :p) will beat an amazingly skilled opponent with the aid of a PPU. And not even with heals or buffs.

[SigmaDraconis]

point of test = parashock removes all need of skill for anyone who isnt parashocked

point of test = parashcok kills the need of FPS in an FPS game

point of test = ghandi sux and he will still beat some of the best on pluto simply cuz theyre parad

point of test = parashock has more influence then all the skill in the world



if you STILL dont get it...i suggest quitting neocron and start playing checkers with old people in the park.

sorry bout the sux comment ghandi im just trying to be as black and white as possible :)

I still think DB should have nothing to do with this tho.

[Kenjuten]

Well, I'm at least glad we understand each other. =)

One final thing though: I'm seeing this as 2v1 because your PPU IS helping you by nerfing out the opponent. Doesn't even matter that the PPU isn't buffing you out or healing you.

This in turn allows me to state my final thoughts on the matter. Though I do bow to you for dealing with me thus far. :D

All I am concerned with is that this thing shows more, far more, than just Parashock and Damage Boost together being unbalanced.

To me it shows three things.

1.) If you combine the assets of two people, it is highly likely that you can win against one person, who only has himself to work with, unless his own assets are greater than those two people. Your PPU casting parashock and damage boost is enough to tell me this.

2.) Parashock and Damage boost needs tweaking on sometime in the future. Your intial point to prove is this.

3.) PPUs in general have too much leeway in things, if they are synergized by someone else. This ties into #1. Having the PPU do nothing BUT parashock and damage boost the enemy, allowing you to win, is enough to tell me this.

See, that's all I'm concerned about in this. I know your intentions, and I can see that others know it too, but what I'm seeing overshadows what you're trying to do.

But since I'm a minority, you can just call this a Second Opinion. ^^

[Owain]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
WHAT???? How will that prove my point? By having both of us parashocked it only proves who has better resists. With my methond, I will take on any tank/PE/APU/spie/ PPU in the game, and beat them every time if they are parashocked and damage boosted.

Your method is like saying "I think that boxers shouldn't be allowed to move. They should only be able to punch and take hits....that's the only way to prove a good fighter."

I am saying that you take any fighter, of any class, with any weapons, and I will be him any time if he is parashocked and damage boosted.....2 pages and still no takers. Wonder why....



ghandisfury + ppu vs. player A and player B

Players A and B get para-spammed while you shoot the fuck out of them.

If you win then that proves that parashock is overpowered

If you lose it doesn't prove jackshit

READ MY FUCKING POST. That's what is stated in my previous post and hopfully you can comprehend this one. If you don't then fuck it I'm tired of trying to help make a better more VALID test.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Judge
Owain, he is trying to prove that even a less than average skill person (sorry ghandi :p) will beat an amazingly skilled opponent with the aid of a PPU. And not even with heals or buffs.

hehe:p That is exactly my point. I have worked on my resists, but as far as my aim goes....well....it's crap. I still need more work on my setup. I use tactics, not skill to defeat my OPs....but I don't need them if they are parashocked and damage boosted. You may as well turn them into a drom with a target.

[SigmaDraconis]

ken..ok if we adapted this..2 ghandis.. vs 3 people being para spammed....even numbers....no more 2v1 excuse if u wanan count the PPU as a whole other fighter on ghandis team i bet the ghadis will still win. because 1 PPU can easily para spam 2+ people continuously

[JackScratch]

Let me get this straigt. What you are saying is that 2 players can beat 1? Uh, yeah, that's how it is supposed to be genious.

[Cruzbroker]

fight without parashocks: chances
fight with parashock to other one: bang dead.

ones someone in a fight gets parashock on himself, he's doomed.
noway to escape.

[SigmaDraconis]

Jack find 2 APUs in ya clan and ill 'duel them' i garuntee ill win using para..and they might actually stand a chance if i dont depends more on their skill but 2v1 = 2 should win is getting to be paper thin.

[Rizzy]

I would have thought a good apu could beat you if they got lucky with random dmg and were setup nicely.

[SigmaDraconis]

me or ghandis?

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Owain
ghandisfury + ppu vs. player A and player B

Players A and B get para-spammed while you shoot the fuck out of them.

If you win then that proves that parashock is overpowered

If you lose it doesn't prove jackshit

READ MY FUCKING POST. That's what is stated in my previous post and hopfully you can comprehend this one. If you don't then fuck it I'm tired of trying to help make a better more VALID test.

Easy there tough guy....

This is a 1vs1 duel. If I fight you without the effects of parashock and damage boost on you, you will probably win. (I have said this many times). If I fight you with the effects of parashock, you *will* lose. I don't know why you are thinking this is a 2vs1 fight. It is 1vs1 with effects of parashock and damageboost.

I am an unskilled player, better than some, worse than most. But I am so confident that I can beat any player on any sever (if I had accounts on other servers I would gladly fight there as well) that I have given 5-1 odds, and I am willing to bet the most covated item in the game.


Originally posted by Owain
If you lose it doesn't prove jackshit

It will prove to me that parashock is not unbalanced, and has a place in the game. *IF* I lose (which I wont) then this will be my final involvement in any parashock threads....ever.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Rizzy
I would have thought a good apu could beat you if they got lucky with random dmg and were setup nicely.

Then front the bill for thier bet. Or don't bet at all.....just see the outcome.

[SigmaDraconis]

u know ghandi..i could beat you..most likly would...but it woudl eb the most boring fight ever. ( im PPU)

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
u know ghandi..i could beat you..most likly would...but it woudl eb the most boring fight ever. ( im PPU)

Highly doubfull, remember you're not allowed to use parashock, damage boost, or cat sanctum. But you're right, would be a superboring fight.

EDIT: if you feel this way, then take the challenge.

[SigmaDraconis]

I wont take the challenge because of yur silly no DB rule..DB has nothing to do with parashock it doesnt effect the targets skill..only yurs..isnt that the point of this test? showing how much para nerfs a person AND helps the other at the same time?

and i can most likly garuntee someoen will die of starvation before we die.

[Kenjuten]

Erm...lots of stuff seemed to happen after my last post O_o I was out at a restaurant xD I haven't even gotten to play yet, I've been posting all day. Damn, everyone talks to much (including me)

Anyway, back on topic...

Sigma, I like the idea much, much better, because it brings in some new things that make this point more simulatable, such as those kinds of situations actually happening (and even here there are stipulations, so that here it can be proven EVEN MORE SO how fucked up parashock and damage boost is).

Jackscratch, I don't know if you were talking to me, but if so, of course I am :D Just kidding. I know I don't know everything, but when I feel that I do know something, I speak. It's so I can see other points of views so I can either A.) Understand something better, B) Reinforce my thinking, and/or C.) See things the way other people see them.

Ghandi...I'm serious, this will be my last post on this topic in general. I'll still comment when I feel like it, but I'm glad I could talk with you. ^^ Here's just one thing though. I will stress that I see this as 2v1. That is because if this WAS a 1v1 duel, you wouldn't be working with SOMEONE ELSE'S parashock and damage boost. There, end. :D Enjoy your duels, Ghandi, I wanna hear results so I can have an idea how bad parashock really is.

[Rizzy]

Firstly, i dont have a char on pluto. Secondly, why the hell would i want to do this pathetic competition?

[SigmaDraconis]

its more of a demonstration then a competition.....

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coudlnt think of anythign better to make my post look like it had content.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
I wont take the challenge because of yur silly no DB rule..DB has nothing to do with parashock it doesnt effect the targets skill..only yurs..isnt that the point of this test? showing how much para nerfs a person AND helps the other at the same time?

and i can most likly garuntee someoen will die of starvation before we die.

:lol: You are probably right. And damage boost is the same thing as parashock, only instead of removing your ability to move, it negates the time and effort you put into skill points.


Originally posted by Kenjuten
Ghandi...I'm serious, this will be my last post on this topic in general. I'll still comment when I feel like it, but I'm glad I could talk with you. ^^ Here's just one thing though. I will stress that I see this as 2v1. That is because if this WAS a 1v1 duel, you wouldn't be working with SOMEONE ELSE'S parashock and damage boost. There, end. :D Enjoy your duels, Ghandi, I wanna hear results so I can have an idea how bad parashock really is.

Don't stop posting mate, just understand that there is no_other_way to do this. If I'm not using someone elses holy paralasys, who's will I use? And if I don't use holy para......then it's just a duel now isn't it? The point of the exersise is to show any player that thinks they are uber, and don't think that the effects of parashock and damage boost mean win_or_lose that a player with much less skill can beat them every time.


Originally posted by Rizzy
Firstly, i dont have a char on pluto. Secondly, why the hell would i want to do this pathetic competition?

I hope you didn't take offence mate, it was not my intention. And why do you call it pathetic....because it's a sure win? Or do you think I'm wrong?

Please take note that 8 hours later, and three pages of replies......still no takers. Wonder why that is ;)

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
:lol: You are probably right. And damage boost is the same thing as parashock, only instead of removing your ability to move, it negates the time and effort you put into skill points.


No, Parashcok negates your abilty to move...and aim...and it also makes it so the attacker hasnt got to aim or dodge for jack.

Damage Boost simply makes you do more damage. you can argue all you want about _what_ exactly DB does..but regardless this is a test about PARASHOCK so DB should be un involved entirely.

[hose187]

Why have the PPU damage boost your opponent? Makes no sense. And your opponent can't DB you? That right there should give you the win, even without HP.

You have an awful lot of extraneous conditions on this deal. 5 to 1 isn't even close to good enough odds, and HP has nothing to do with that.

Your opponent should receive ONE HP. You should be able to kill anyone except a PPU before the drugs kick in, or as good as. You'd just have to use the honor system about whether or not your opponent popped the anti-shock before the duel begins. If they wait until after the HP to take the drug, you'll have the win. None of those other silly conditions needed.

[Kenjuten]

Hoo boy...Sigma, I know the thread's about how unbalanced Parashock is, but it's truly a demonstration of how the PPU (when used properly) can decimate, and cause an auto-win if you aren't prepared to fight against such means.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by hose187
Why have the PPU damage boost your opponent? Makes no sense. And your opponent can't DB you? That right there should give you the win, even without HP.


Because damage boost + parashock = automatic win. And no, DB does not mean auto win, it means probable win.


Originally posted by hose187
You have an awful lot of extraneous conditions on this deal. 5 to 1 isn't even close to good enough odds, and HP has nothing to do with that.

Please explain the extraneous conditions you speek of? You mean that my opponent will be constantly parashocked and damage boosted?:rolleyes:


Originally posted by hose187
Your opponent should receive ONE HP. You should be able to kill anyone except a PPU before the drugs kick in, or as good as. You'd just have to use the honor system about whether or not your opponent popped the anti-shock before the duel begins. If they wait until after the HP to take the drug, you'll have the win. None of those other silly conditions needed.

Then that would not prove that parashock + damage boost = auto win. Plus it would not prove that drugs are useless. (please take note that I said you are allowed to use them, and encouraged to do so). BTW, thank you for proving my point for me.

I wonder.......after all of the threads that have come and gone about the overpowered nature of parashock and damage boost, and so many people saying "just take a drug...problem solved", or "I need it for defence".....where are these people now? I've put my money where my mouth is, even further than that. Are you scared, or do you already know that you_will_lose?

[Kenjuten]

The loud are often quiet in the face of undisputality.

There have been certain people that have suggested certain things, but either they have not said anything/much after that, and/or have not directly taken up the challenge...

Guys, don't let me down. I want to see someone actually win this sort of thing. =P

[SigmaDraconis]

so your arguement is DB+para = autowin?

Well this has nothing to do with Para being unbalanced.... it has to do with you thinking COMBINED its too powerful..but with or withotu DB, a para is still 90% garunteed win, therefore you dont need to involve the DB to prove your point.

[Vampire222]

i got one, gimp ur ppu to 42 dex, make him use, and cap (rifle 3) tar, and pwn that guy flat... even while dmgboosted/paraed

[JackScratch]

Gahndi, this entire thread is a steaming pile. To prove your point you have to win a fight either A, against an opponint missing 2 tools his class is ment to have at his disposal (flawed because of course you would win, the same is true of any other class with its 2 primary tools) or B, lose to a PPU useing those 2 tools (which is flawed because it fails to take into consideration soo many other factors includeing but not limited to, your skill, their skill, either putting in less than complete effort as to prove their point, and of course the effective distinctions concernine the various classes and their particular given strengths and weakness and the tearms of the combat.) Useing the kind of debate practices you are attempting to use here, I could easily prove impericly that the sky is Purple and the earth is flat. Im tired of everyone trying to distill the balance issues in this game down to individual points. The game is far to complicated for that to be at all possible, and God I hope KK knows that.

[Nurmipora]

Ghandi come to Saturn and ill fry u ass ... :D in that competion

[solling]

maybee u should use the test with parashock only i dont see where DB will help u prove that parashock is overpowered

[Freaky Fryd]

HP definitely does throw the fight balance off much more than it should and I don't understand how some people don't see that.

Q: What's the first thing almost any PPU does to an opponent?
A: Parashock.

This almost always comes first, even before Damage Boost, so there's gotta be a reason.
That reason is that it makes the receiver of it a "sitting duck" (or a "drom with a target on it" ;) )

If I thought I stood a chance against Ghandi with those conditions, I would do it in a heartbeat. But HP is so devastating to speed/evasion that I (and many other spies/PEs) just stealth and pop a drug when I'm hit with it (when I'm unsuspecting of it)

There's not much point in just sitting there, targettable, ready to be DBed, and to wait for the hail of damage about to hit you...
At least I have a chance at avoiding the damage when I'm damage boosted...

[JackScratch]

That is some seriously flawed logic there. According to your assesment the fact that the first thing I do at a meal is put my napkin in my lap, makes it the most important part of my meal. get real man. Stun is the one thing PPUs do that effect your actions rather than theirs, so of course it comes first, DUH. As for the rest of your arguement, very emotionaly delivered, but then I could emotionaly argue that all whales should be exterminated, that wouldn't make me right either. Either play the stupid game or quit, but quit whineing about how this one factor is ruining your game playing experience, it's not.

[Disturbed021]

Originally posted by JackScratch
That is some seriously flawed logic there. According to your assesment the fact that the first thing I do at a meal is put my napkin in my lap, makes it the most important part of my meal. get real man.
tbh that analogy has absolutly nothing in common with Neocron, PPUs or Holy P and makes no sense whatsoever....

FFs point is HP sticks you to the ground to make you a limping fool so that you are extremely easy to DB and target for the ppl shooting at you. It is used first because it is the best tactic to kill any class. Standard for killing ppl at an OP war;
1. HP
2. DB
3.
a) If a PPU is the target an APU should be debuffing by now
b). shoot the fuck out of them

They die everytime if 1-3 are quickly laid out.
If #1 misses Spies and PEs will stealth away and you have little chance of getting them. They come back when fully healed/ buffed and DB has worn off.
PPUs will run away to either rez someone or GR out depending on the odds there.
APUs and Tanks are hard as hell to target when not Parad so they last a long time and take out ppl fast. So, ya HP does have a huge affect on the outcome of a fight

I've been around a long time and usually when I die at an OP battle its because I am shocked and can't get away to heal up. no big deal to me cause I know it happens to other peeps as well.

HP may not ruin YOUR experience JS but it does ruin alot of ppls experience. I fight almost daily and I rarely whine even when I die do to f00kin Paraspam, but I hate it when ppl who don't even seem to play in OP wars or PvP daily come here to say stop whining and play the game.

We as a community have a right to whine as much as we want when we see something that doesn't seem right.
All I can say to you is move on to the next post if you don't like to hear the whining.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by JackScratch
That is some seriously flawed logic there. According to your assesment the fact that the first thing I do at a meal is put my napkin in my lap, makes it the most important part of my meal. get real man. Stun is the one thing PPUs do that effect your actions rather than theirs, so of course it comes first, DUH. As for the rest of your arguement, very emotionaly delivered, but then I could emotionaly argue that all whales should be exterminated, that wouldn't make me right either. Either play the stupid game or quit, but quit whineing about how this one factor is ruining your game playing experience, it's not.

How on earth would you presume what is "ruining" my game experience? You have no idea, and your entire post is ignorant.....did you read my post? Did you see my presentation? Did I whine, complain, assume_anything? No, I offered you to SHOW me that it isn't unbalanced. I offered for you to earn some cash/weapons/items/MC5chips...etc while at the same time showing me that parashock is NOT a sure win. Now, either take the challenge, or get out of this thread. I would rather you take the challenge though.....make sure to bet big.

Oh, and as for your above post (that I didn't bother replying to), explain how you can "prove the sky is purple" by pointing out flaws and inbalance on any_certain_issue? Cause I'm pretty confused here. I mean......either you don't understand the post, or you don't care to understand it or are trying to throw this thread off topic (i'm guessing the latter). So, like I said, you are probably a better player...better at aiming....you probably have a better setup.....there's a good chance you are using better weapons....but with ALL OF THIS, you will not beet me if you are parashocked and I'm not. All of the skill, weapons, setup, tactics are thrown right out the window. So, I'll say it again <<<<<take the challenge or get out>>>>>>

[___T-X____]

You shouldnt take the bate Ghand, ppl are always on the wind-up m8. Thats better than the game for some.

Its obvious what your saying, and its the more radical approaches like yours to problems, that open peoples eyes, and get things changed - keep fighting the good fight i say m8

EDIT @ Jack below - hahhahaaha, u aint gonna bait me sunshine- on ya bike...

[JackScratch]

Let the flames burn. You guys dont now dink about logical arguement. Ghandi, you offer proof that doesnt prove anything. You say if A. then B. which is not true. Near as I can tell you are saying that any class can beat any other class if they have a supporter, well DUH. And as for what I said, Disturbed, the previous post stated as proof that para is over powered that it is the first thing a PPU uses, that isnt proof of anything, and my example is valid not because it has anything to do with NC, but because the basic structure of the proof that was given is flawed. When you guys have graduated highschool, let me know, well see if you are ready to have a debate then.

And what good fight would that be, screwing other players? Great fight, keep it up.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by JackScratch
Let the flames burn. You guys dont now dink about logical arguement. Ghandi, you offer proof that doesnt prove anything. You say if A. then B. which is not true. Near as I can tell you are saying that any class can beat any other class if they have a supporter, well DUH.

Well duh.....I won't have a supporter. I will use all of my own buffs, all of my own heals, and all of my own shelter/deflector. I'll tell you what, I'll make it even richer for you. You can have all buffs, shelter/deflectors from the PPU, I will use my own. The only thing you don't get is a heal. So, how about it. I am not getting any bennefits from the PPU, and you are assuming all of the benefits, and all of the downfalls. What? What's that? That's right, I didn't think you_or_anybody else would take it. Now, you go on and defend parashock in your little corner, and I'll go on telling the truth, pointing out logic, and completing tests that prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is wrong. kthxby


Originally posted by JackScratch
And what good fight would that be, screwing other players? Great fight, keep it up.

I don't see how taking the worst PvP weapon out of the game is hurting anybody.

[KidWithStick]

i dont wanna read all the posts....so...

did anyone beat you?

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by KidWithStick
i dont wanna read all the posts....so...

did anyone beat you?

Nobody took it.....imagine that:rolleyes: , even the avid "but but *cries* we need it....it's balanced.....its' a nerf" people went running and screaming in terror.

[KidWithStick]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
Nobody took it.....imagine that:rolleyes: , even the avid "but but *cries* we need it....it's balanced.....its' a nerf" people went running and screaming in terror.

figures


sigh...ill try it...but i need to reactivate KWS before i would try such a thing:wtf:

[JackScratch]

OK first of all, I AM A CAPPED PPU. Next, what you are offereing isnt PROOF of anything. It doesnt prove squat one way or another. In fact what you are saying, can't be proven, certainly not as close as the subject is. If all else is equal in a duel, the the introduction of any outside effect should make for a win. It makes since that way. 2 people in a duel and a monk comes along and stuns one of them, the other should win, of course he wins. As for who it would hurt, you idiots take more and more away from different classes so that what you consider in all your greatness to be balance, who the shit are you? what makes you so god damn smart? Why do you get to decide what "balance" is? Do you believe that just because you have offered up some completely arbitrary chalange that doesnt prove anything, which in nfact should have the same outcome regardless of weather or not you are right, that it makes you right. Bad news, it doesnt. None of what you have presented "proves" or even provides good evedince of anything other than your inability to present your case, which is, by the way, flawed to start with.

[Kenjuten]

Oi Carumba...

You guys are a bit dense or something O_o;

Re-read my last recent posts on this issue.

[Vampire222]

maybee they should remove SxR from the game, since thats the worst clan ingame

[Disturbed021]

Originally posted by JackScratch
When you guys have graduated highschool, let me know, well see if you are ready to have a debate then.


This right here makes me think that YOU haven't graduated high school yet.
When ppl start trying to throw in personal remarks about age and maturity it is obvious they do not have a point and have lost any sort of argument. Instead of personal attacks why don't you try logical reasoning.
You sir have no point what so ever. You ramble on about HP not being overpowered in non-coherent sentences and crappy analogies.

/edit was remaking my point but it is obvious you are biased and will not listen to any reasoning so I'm not wasting anymore time on you.

[Disturbed021]

Originally posted by Vampire222
maybee they should remove SxR from the game, since thats the worst clan ingame

:rolleyes:
/set whiny immature voice 1
Maybe they should remove you from the game, since you are the worst player ingame

/set reset orignal voice

Dude, grow up! :lol:

[Archeus]

1. Digging up old posts :p

2. Not posting on the 'Cry like a little Gurl and nerf the PPU thread' instead of this one.

:p

[KidWithStick]

this is a challange thread

[hudsonbeck]

I honestly think i have lost about 20 IQ points from reading this thread.

This trial will not test what you are stating you want it to prove/disprove.

It is ludicrous to think that someone that is DB and HP should ever win a fight. If you don’t see your test as 2v1 then can you see it as at least 1.5v1 as the PPU is only using one side of his/her powers (the negative effects)

If you have a PE on Saturn, I am sure there are many players that will beat you in your "test." Me being one of them.

And just to let you know, I know what i am talking about, My credentials are:
Clinical trial experience (my mother's, uncle's, cousin's dog was in a pre-clinical trial once)

Hudson

[SovKhan]

PE's have damage boost... and stealth...
so does that mean you would be casting DB on your target? does that mean you can stealth?

blah bloody stupid challange.

in order to prove anything you would have to have a control group.

ie you fighting your target without ppu. a few times to see if you can win in the first place.

and parasock on a PE is practicly death anyway beacuse PE's depend on there speed most of the time.

to meny factors involved in the "test" anyway if u dueled a ppu the only "weapon" he would be able to use would be a SC, because holy para bolt (TL8 spell) is a parashock.

my feelings are that PE's are overpowered 1v1 right now anyway because they have access to the best access to the best PSI spells of any class other than monks, can stealth 1 or even stealth 2 if your an imp whore, have no runspeed nerf, best con not includeing tanks, and good weapons as well. a ppu takes away your advantage 1v1. disagree if you like.

perhaps the best way to "test" this is tank v tank, pe vs pe. not just a random class vs a pe.

[Shadow Dancer]

Ghandi there's no need for your challenge to be proven. The "proof" is already there. When you see a class+ppu take on 5-6 people and still win, you know parashock and damage boost are the biggest factors to that.

[Richard Slade]

I'll remake this on Saturn but with a little change:
PPU + Whatevva VS PPU + A SPY
5-1 odds are up
Full odds meaning you bet 100k and win you get 500k
You bet 1 MC5 and win you get 5 MC5
We fight in the fight-pit outside Jeriko
PPU's are free to buff as much as they want
However the DB is restricted and not allowed to be used
*
BUT this isn't your ordinary duel
The "win" is counted if you manage to make this an INTERESTING duel
Anyone dare to fight?:p

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Richard Slade

The "win" is counted if you manage to make this an INTERESTING duel



What do you mean?

[Candaman]

if i can get a deflector from a ppu i'll fite u and i'll put in say 200k thats a even mil when i win

[Richard Slade]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
What do you mean?

Good one there
This is exactly what I mean.

[El Barto]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
I'll tell you what. I will put my money where my mouth is. I will bet any player on pluto with 5-1 odds. Meaning that if you put up 100k, I will put up 500k. If you want to bet MC5 chips, I'll bet mine against yours plus 2 million (this exclude riggers and hawkins).

Here is the bet. I challenge anybody on Pluto to a duel. Everybody will use thier own buffs, and it will be proven by a /set kill self for both parties. You will be constantly parashocked, and damage boosted. There will be no interaction from the PPU other than parashock and damage boosting you (meaning I will use my own buffs, and he will not heal me). If a fight ends in a draw (wich will only happen if I'm fighting a PPU) then all bets are a draw. NOTE if you are a PPU, you are unable to parashock, damage boost, or cat sanctum.

I am not saying I'm uber...not anywhere close. I know of many players that can beet me. What I'm saying is that I don't need to be uber if the person you are fighting is parashocked.

errrm, does this means that we are paraed + dmg boosted and we win 500k if we lose? Or is it wewin 500k if we win?

[]v[ortice]

This thread is pathetic.

Ghandis tell us something we don't know. The Idea of Parashock is that you don't use it offensively. If anyone is doing it to you or anyone else out there they either have 30 minutes to spend or they really, really don't like you.

Oh and If anyone is stoopid enuff to take on this challenge. Hit him with a force modded MoonStriker and finish with a speedgun.

Game Set and Match (You'll have to be quick tho)

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Candaman
if i can get a deflector from a ppu i'll fite u and i'll put in say 200k thats a even mil when i win

OK, DM me tonight and we will get this done. I will be on around 7 EST time.



Originally posted by El Barto
errrm, does this means that we are paraed + dmg boosted and we win 500k if we lose? Or is it wewin 500k if we win?

Depends on how much you bet. If you put up 100K, and you win, you will get 500K.


Originally posted by ]v[ortice
This thread is pathetic.

Ghandis tell us something we don't know. The Idea of Parashock is that you don't use it offensively. If anyone is doing it to you or anyone else out there they either have 30 minutes to spend or they really, really don't like you.

Oh and If anyone is stoopid enuff to take on this challenge. Hit him with a force modded MoonStriker and finish with a speedgun.

Game Set and Match (You'll have to be quick tho)

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about? This thread isn't pathetic, it just goes to show you that everyone who supports paraspam and damage boost knows that they are overpowered, and unballanced.....you don't see any of the "supporters" flocking to this thread to take my DS or SA do you?

[Promethius]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
No, because then theoreticaly both players would be "equal". My point is that parashock and damageboost are unbalanced, and I think that this will prove my point quite effectively. The PPU will have no interaction of any kind to myself. So in effect we are "equal" aside from parashock.

I'll say it again, I'm not a good player....my aim sucks, and I'm constantly working on my resists, but I am certain that I will win if you're parashocked, damage boosted, and I'm not.

ok your point is that para and dmg boost are unbalanced. I kno I'm not a genius or anything but isn't that the advantage of having a PPU with you?

So you want to get rid of parashock and dmg boost? 0.o

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Promethius
ok your point is that para and dmg boost are unbalanced. I kno I'm not a genius or anything but isn't that the advantage of having a PPU with you?

Ah, I'm sorry I must have been confused. See, I thought that the "advantage" of having a PPU with you was so you could get healed/shelter/buffed midbattle, and even with those "advantages" *if* you die, you would resserected. I wasn't aware that the entire point of having a PPU was so he could nail the opposing player to the ground, and make him take almost double damage......hmph.:p Please forgive my sarcasm. The advantage of having a PPU with you should be for buffs, not to make an easy target out of your enemy.



Originally posted by Promethius
So you want to get rid of parashock and dmg boost? 0.o

Yes, I want to get rid of parashock, and make damage boost stack (as it should) like it does on mobs.

[-FN-]

Ugh, can some mod please close this thread :p It's over a month old. Spell changes are coming soon with the next Retail Patch and there should only be valid discussion about that atm.

[Promethius]

Just because your vison of the ideal PPU is to just heal and buff and nothing more. Doesn't mean PPU's shouldn't have shock or dmg boost. (which doesn't mean double dmg).

My view of teh PPU is they are supose to give u bonus's a non-PPUed runner would have. i.E. parashocked dmg boosted and his opponent would be healed and buffed.

[Shadow Dancer]

I agree Ghandi, parashock and damage boost are too offensive to be ppu spells. They should just be removed.

[Promethius]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I agree Ghandi, parashock and damage boost are too offensive to be ppu spells. They should just be removed.

How is parashock offensive if you cannot ever kill anyone with it (yes i kno after about 20 min of doing it u CAN kill someoen....to that i say make parashock do 0 dmg..)

Dmg boost also does 0 dmg to any enemy therefor i do not see teh offensive part.....yes i kno with an attacker it helps greatly but i still don't think its offensive.

[El Barto]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
Depends on how much you bet. If you put up 100K, and you win, you will get 500K.


Kool, although I know I'll lose cos of the para shock + dmg boost, and also this tread makes totly no senc to me, I'm up for it, putting 100k of my cash up, its a bit of fun.

[Nexxy]

Why do you have to be damage boosted if this is testing if para is over powered?

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Promethius
How is parashock offensive if you cannot ever kill anyone with it

IMO a spell doesn't have to do damage or kill to be considered offensive. If I cast a spell on you that immobilizes you, sets all your stats to 0, destroys your armor, and makes all mobs aggro on you, would you still consider that passive? :p

[Promethius]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
IMO a spell doesn't have to do damage or kill to be considered offensive. If I cast a spell on you that immobilizes you, sets all your stats to 0, destroys your armor, and makes all mobs aggro on you, would you still consider that passive? :p

hey ho. destroying armor would be considered as dmg so ur theorum is faulty. (just like my spelling)

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Promethius
hey ho. destroying armor would be considered as dmg so ur theorum is faulty. (just like my spelling)


Fine then, without destroy armor. Point still stands ffs

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Fine then, without destroy armor. Point still stands ffs

I love how these people try to justifie parashock with these lame excuses, but fail to admit that it removes skill from the game.....I feel you pain.

[Jesterthegreat]

would stealth be allowed?


cos if so... and you did this on uranus... i would take it up (after a bit of leveling / lomming unfortunatly)

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
would stealth be allowed?


cos if so... and you did this on uranus... i would take it up (after a bit of leveling / lomming unfortunatly)

no, I'm sorry....standard "duel" rules won't allow stealth.

[Nexxy]

You still aint said why your using damage boost too....unless i missed it?

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Nexxy
You still aint said why your using damage boost too....unless i missed it?

Because damage boost without parashock is *almost* a sure win. Parashock is a 99% chance of a sure win. Parashock plus damage boost means you're dead and I'm not plain and simple. You CANNOT win if you are parashocked and damage boosted.

[Nexxy]

Yeah but this is to test if parashock is over powered not damage boost...

[Jesterthegreat]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
no, I'm sorry....standard "duel" rules won't allow stealth.

lmao... so my spy would be damage boosted, HP'd AND not use stealth?


im sorry... i thought this was proving HP and DB made the fight an instant win... now you are removing stealth from it too... lol

can tanks use CS's? O_o

as PPU lose their main spell, spies lose their main tool... what will you lose as a PE? or do you get to do anything you like?

idf this was a real decent one (a PPU tries to keep HP on me at all times - no other rules) it would represent a real PvP situation. this does nothing. this is a complete waste. you bitch about how para decides a fight... then include para, damage boost and no stealth into the fight to prove it? that doesnt prove anything my friend

[Promethius]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
I love how these people try to justifie parashock with these lame excuses, but fail to admit that it removes skill from the game.....I feel you pain.

Hey i never said that skill is req to kill someone parashocked and dmg boosted.

Basicaly dmg boost increases teh req of skill u need to kill ur opponent (saying ur dmg boosted not opponent). Because even tho dmg is increased on urself u still have mobility. But parashock decreases teh skill lvl ur opponent needs in order to hit u. (Not sure if this is making any sense) but thats how i see it.

Also if your doing this on realistic terms. The ONLY rule should be that a PPU keeps parashocking you. Spys can stealth. People can use drugs to stop the shock. But theres 2 ways u could do it.

1. Have 2 people fight no rules and a PPU shocking and dmg boosting (representing PPU stayin ona 2v1 fight)

2. PPU shocks you once the fight starts. (representing an OP fight and opponent gets shocked)

Though in both cases this test is faulty. IF there was a PPU there they would be constantly dmg boosting / parashocking which underminds the whole point of this thread. So i guess the 2nd one is the way to go.

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
lmao... so my spy would be damage boosted, HP'd AND not use stealth?


im sorry... i thought this was proving HP and DB made the fight an instant win... now you are removing stealth from it too... lol

can tanks use CS's? O_o

See, I figured that you would reply in this manner (didn't figure on the ensuing synicism).....The rules of a duel have always been no stealth. It defeats the purpose of a duel. It also defeats the purpose of this test. (parashock+damage boost=dead).


Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
as PPU lose their main spell, spies lose their main tool... what will you lose as a PE? or do you get to do anything you like?

Yes, PE will lose stealth as well. PPUs won't be able to parashock or damage boost me. This test isn't to prove if you can get away with stealth, and "dueling rules" won't permit it.


Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
idf this was a real decent one (a PPU [b]tries to keep HP on me at all times - no other rules) it would represent a real PvP situation. this does nothing. this is a complete waste.

NO, a "real PvP situation" would be you doing jack shit to me sniping....you would have little or no effect if I had a PPU and you didn't. I wouldn't give a shit about you stealthing and sniping, you would be dismissed.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
you bitch about how para decides a fight... then include para, damage boost and no stealth into the fight to prove it? that doesnt prove anything my friend

I'm sorry, I don't see the tanks, PPUs, APUs, or low level PE/spies getting to run away with stealth...My goal isn't to prove that you can run and hide like a whipped dog, my goal is to prove that a good player (such as yourself) CANNOT be a less skilled player (like me) if you are parashocked and damage boosted.

[Promethius]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
The rules of a duel have always been no stealth. It defeats the purpose of a duel. It also defeats the purpose of this test. (parashock+damage boost=dead).

uh the last time i checked there was no parashock in duels either. or the use of a PPU. and the PURPOSE of this wasn't to see if dmg boost + para can kill someone in a duel but in realistic situations.

edit: Wat are u trying to prove? para + dmg+newb> unbuffed capped player?

[ghandisfury]

Originally posted by Promethius
edit: Wat are u trying to prove? para + dmg+newb> unbuffed capped player?

FINALLY!!!:p Yes, I'm trying to prove that a person with more skill, a better setup, and over all better player *will not* win. I'm trying to prove that NO player in this game will be able to beet a lesser skilled player if they are parashocked and damage boosted. Hell, I'll even let the PPU buff you....won't matter. Parashock+damage boost=dead bottom line.

[Promethius]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
FINALLY!!!:p Yes, I'm trying to prove that a person with more skill, a better setup, and over all better player *will not* win. I'm trying to prove that NO player in this game will be able to beet a lesser skilled player if they are parashocked and damage boosted. Hell, I'll even let the PPU buff you....won't matter. Parashock+damage boost=dead bottom line.

ok well thats the advantage of having a PPU. Is so u can kill your enemyies easier. Or is that wat your disagreeing with? Saying that a PPU shouldn't be able to play that much of an offensive role by paraing and dmg boosting.

Also a mistake u made saying that if the PPU buffed me along with dmg/para you can't win. WEll i think thats wrong.

dmg+para+buff vs. Unbuffed I would have to say it depends on the skill of teh players and it IS possible to win.

If the para/dmg guy can use drugs it can be a lil different.


Also Des anyone else think there should a be a way to resist against shock? like a skill in con or something? but it capps out at 50% less shock or something.

[Jesterthegreat]

at first i though he was saying:

Para + noob > skilled player -para

Then it turned into:

Para + DB + noob > skilled player -Para -DB

THEN it became

Para + DB + noob > skilled player -Para -DB -Stealth



he is not showing it in any normal PvP situation. no stealth? duel rules? what does this have to do with balance? you are taking this massivly out of context.

instead of proving para means instant death (which i assume you were trying to prove? - add DB to that if i am wrong)... you are proving that in controlled situation, with your rules, you can beat a good player. you take away abilities from PEs / spies (stealth) and PPUs (para / DB).

this makes your results 100% worthless. if this was in PP1 or at an op - anything was allowed - however you had a monk with you only para'ing and DB'ing.... then i would consider it a fair fight. However this is not the case. you take away options of combat. like it or not - para and DB and stealth are methods of combat...

saying no stealth so you cant "run away" is like saying no wearing armour as it is not based on your skills / how you spec'd. no healing mid fight. no buffs.


basically through all that woffle i was trying to get accross the point that to prove that parashock is causing victories / losses (one variable) you are including the enemy constantly DB'd / parad (2 variables), no stealth (3 variables), no holy cath i think i read too? (4 variables)... this is not a proper way to do things.

this is all my opinion. in my opinion this is massivly in your favour, not only because of para, but all the other rules you are laying down.

here is what you will prove (assuming you win):

noob + para + DB > skilled player - para - DB - stealth IN A SITUATION CONTROLED BY THE NOOB

also... this is a 2 vs 1 thing. i dont give a shit if the PPU uses only 2 spells... this has to be 1 vs 1 or 2 vs 2.

whether that means and runner fights a lone PPU - or you and a PPU take on 2 comers at once... i dont care. but if you dont realise this is a 2 vs 1 situation you need to REALLY think about what you are saying.

hell... you are saying it unbalances combat? make it a pure 2 vs 2. the PPU can para them both. hell if they have a PPU fine - we can keep the old no para / DB from their PPU.

only their side is para'd / DB'd, however then there is even numbers to see the results.

NC Junki