View Full Version : CONSTRUCTORS (not needed anymore) and SPECIALIZATION
ericdraven
09-10-03, 14:26
Because there were quite a lot threads recently about constructing (see the last one (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78002)) i want to put all this together into one post.
Basically it's all about high level constructors (200++) and specialization.
My main gripe is (and i am sure this goes for many high level constructors out there):
The skillsystem of Neocron is heading more and more in the direction of "teh specialization".
If you take two average players with same skills:
Player A - pistol tech PE, runs fast, can repair his stuff, recycles, can drive all vehicles and uses stealth & Judge.
Player B - pistol tech PE, runs not so fast, uses stealth & Judge.
Who will win the duel? (remember, both have the same skills).
I think it's not difficult to answer - Player B will smash A probably 10:0.
Why? Because Player B is combat specialized.
Many people moan about the specialization. But i think it's ok. No one forces you to do so, but if you want to compete
with the best, you HAVE to.
On the other hand - Player A is quite independent.. let's say he also can poke and hack.. he is the perfect solo player.
Player B needs good support (or multiple accounts :p), otherwise he will become annoyed very quick when noone is around
who repairs his stuff, or pokes his SA.
So both of them have their advantages. But if you want to compete you have to specialize.
However, this post actually is about constructors. :p
Next example:
Player A shouts into zone chat of Plaza-1: Constructing 150/150!
Player B does the same - Constructing 220 BASE!!!111 With Fac&Boost&Glove 305!!!!!111
Ten people want her stuff contructed. Ten people run to... Player.. B? Yes, i am sure they do.
Why? No offense, but.. most players seem to have no clue about constructing. "OMG!! Level 305!!! w000t!
I will give him my parts and he will build me a five slotted artifact CS!!!! OMG OMG KOS KOS KOS to the
other n00b constructor!!!!"
Yes, sure.
Whom would i chose? Player A. Why? He does not have to jump to a fac, does not have to wait for a buff
and does not need to switch gloves. Maybe he does not even has a glove. Does it matter?
NO, BECAUSE BOTH CONSTRUCTORS HAVE THE SAME CHANCE FOR SLOTS AND WILL CONSTRUCT YOUR RARE WITH THE
SAME AVERAGE STATS.
Now to the whole point of the post (yeah, finally :)) - high level constructors are.. for vain!
They are only for all those people out there who still believe that a level of 300+ is better than a
newbie level of 150. People who still think that drugging up helps for slots/stats. People who still
think that putting the parts manually into the processor window increases the chance for slots.
People who still think that a REPAIR SKILL of 135 is needed to maximize the slot-chance.. and so
on. :D
Maybe... (i doubt).. but maybe one day people WILL realize that everything above CST 150 is.. THE SAME.
(except that a 150er constructor can fail when he constructs a First Love. But does it matter? No. The parts
don't break, so screw this!).
What's my personal conclusion of all this - Constructors are NOT NEEDED ANYMORE AT ALL!
Why? Simple. I just take my fully capped combat rifle spy. I rip out his imps, give him Hawking, SS, CST2&3
chip, CST glove, drag him to a factory and buff him. Voila - you got a Constructor with level 130.
Do you want to say now - "OMG OMG!!! That's not enough!!!!!11". Wrong. A capped spy (INT/DEX100) needs
CST 105 TO CAP ALL WEAPONS and that means he also caps ALL RARES, and - very important - cappes the
probability for slots AND cappes the stats of rares.
For those who want to know when you cap a constructor:
CAP = (103 - DEX * 0.25 - INT * 0.15) / 0.6
(yes, the skills guide (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69477 ) tells INT*0.1, but i think that's a typo, because the .def file says 0.15)
Another conclusion - Neocron is full of specialization nowadays.. but.. not for Constructors.. Why not??
Barter - the higher the better (i know this for sure up to level 180)
Researcher - the higher the better, up to 244 (because the highest BPable item has TL122, Punisher)
Repairer - the higher the better (less condition loss; never searched for a cap tho, i might be mistaken)
Constructor - useless. Take a capped spy with ZERO construction level and do what i described before - tataaa - you got a capped constructor.
My suggestion to KK:
Remove constructors.. o_O Err, ok, joking.. :p
Give specialized constructors a raison d`être - a reason to exist. At the moment we do not benefit at all, except
the very little advantage that we never fail while constructing a rare item. But i don't think this justifies it.
What could be possible / would be nice - a slightly higher chance for slots AND stats. It must not be
exaggerated.. this would be the end of the average constructors.. but at least SOME LITTLE ADVANTAGE.
Or do you think it's OK that someone with level 300 makes the same items as someone with 150? Do you? I don't think so.
Just compare it to a spy with 200 R-C. Is he as good as a spy with 100 R-C? No? Hell no!! He is SEVERAL levels better!
But.. why not the constructors?
Damn.. this became too long.. no one will read it to the end.. :(
However, if you agree with my thoughts please vote this thread. If not - then not! :p But at least tell me your thoughts.
Over and out. Shadow`, frustrated level 295 (OMG OMG KOS KOS!!111) constructor (base 210).
/EDIT: I have to add - why i wrote "not needed ANYMORE" - the recent changes gave big benefits for us constructors - raised bonus on the CST chips, CST glove and factory bonus also for non-clan players. But i am asking myself - what for?
Richard Slade
09-10-03, 14:30
Splendid words eric
Absolutley splendid, couldn't agree more atm
Have a cookie ;)
If this is all true y do u have a base 210 Const??
ericdraven
09-10-03, 14:41
Originally posted by Candaman
If this is all true y do u have a base 210 Const??
That's what i am asking myself more and more... :p
However, it does not really matter (in my case), i play on Uranus (multiple char server) AND have multiple accounts.
...aaand i still have a little, little hope that maybe, one day, KK will give us high-level constructors something.. :)
juvestar15
09-10-03, 14:43
Originally posted by Candaman
If this is all true y do u have a base 210 Const??
Originally posted by ericdraven
"OMG!! Level 305!!! w000t!
I will give him my parts and he will build me a five slotted artifact CS!!!! OMG OMG KOS KOS KOS to the
other n00b constructor!!!!"
More customers for eric :)
But i have never seen you advertise eric.
another reason could be that if your using Construction as a real tradeskill and advertising your services to make money, all the muppets running about dont realise that its pointless having more than 130 or so. They'll always flock to the highest skill. So if ya aint got the highest skill in the area, then you aint gonna get any jobs.
Richard Slade
09-10-03, 14:49
Originally posted by Elric
another reason could be that if your using Construction as a real tradeskill and advertising your services to make money, all the muppets running about dont realise that its pointless having more than 130 or so. They'll always flock to the highest skill. So if ya aint got the highest skill in the area, then you aint gonna get any jobs.
Isn't this like... EXACTLY what ericdraven said in the first post?!
o_O
Originally posted by Richard Slade
Isn't this like... EXACTLY what ericdraven said in the first post?!
o_O
oh yeah, he did. well, it just clarifies the point as to why he might have that high a skill as Candaman had asked.
Originally posted by ericdraven
NO, BECAUSE BOTH CONSTRUCTORS HAVE THE SAME CHANCE FOR SLOTS AND WILL CONSTRUCT YOUR RARE WITH THE
Horray - at last someone realises this! - Give me a call anytime. :) I'm now 140 base or 155 with my glove, and I still get these sort of conversations.
Trade NC: > Anon: Wanted high level constructor.
Trade NC: > Brammers: Sure I can help.
Trade NC: > Anon: What TL are you?
Trade NC: > Brammers: TL155/150 Tool
Trade NC: > Anon: Ahh no good - I want a TL190+ constructor for lots of slots and stats.
Trade NC: > Brammers: Ok fine....
10 mins later...
Trade NC: > Anon: Wanted high level constructor.
1 hour later
Trade NC: > Anon: Wanted high level constructor.
2 hours later
Direct: > Anon: Ok can you make my gun?
Direct: > Brammers: Sure ok - what is it.
Direct: > Anon: (Insert low TL weapon)
And I tell you - nothing make me happier to construct a zero slotted weapon for these annoying people. o_O
Oh by the wasy - as for scrapping constructor defantly NO! I'll be out of a job in Neocorn
umm,
5 stars Eric!
Have to agree some sort of bonus to the uber consters would be fair since KK push the combat types towards specialisation (or at least allow min/max'ers free reign).
I think the reason for the recent increase in the imp bonuses was the "acceptable and reasonable dicussion points" raised by a number of people about the xp gain for tradeskilling. I.E. would take several years to cap a spy.
So KK response was to increase the imp bonuses so the poor spy could both trade skill and have a relatively good combat skills or at least be able to level and tradeskill
Typically, and understandably, the response by the capped tradeskill spies was to increase their main tradeskill. In the case of all but consters this has (if somewhat limited) result.
All I know is that my dex 90 int 90 skill 160 conster seems to build as well (not tested the v. high lvl rares) as the best on the servers.
regards,
Kain
ericdraven
09-10-03, 15:16
Originally posted by juvestar15
More customers for eric :)
But i have never seen you advertise eric.
I construct only for myself and for my mate.
Why? I don't want to waste my time waiting for customers in plaza. Then i build a zero slotter and all i get are abuses. Is this how you want to spend your time? I doubt.
If someone asks me - AND i have time - i do construct for other people. It happened occasionally and the people were satisfied. But i would never advertise. I actually don't know why people do it at all - still the majority of the customers don't know that slots and stats are random and that the cap is around 130 (or even lower). Just look at Brammers post.
Cruzbroker
09-10-03, 15:17
Yeah, I though of making CST 130, RES 100:
CST3, SS + something + buffs = enough for both.
(lomming my spy)
... :p
edit: hmm, could be combat as well.. 50 WPL + 2 chip & backbone... and driver and recycler and 75 repairer... brr..
Now we can add slotenhancers to the discussion too:
If a low lvl constructor got a 1.5 and a high level doesn't got one, the low level can garantee 3 slots(!), unlike the high level constructor.
juvestar15
09-10-03, 16:33
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
Yeah, I though of making CST 130, RES 100:
CST3, SS + something + buffs = enough for both.
(lomming my spy)
... :p
edit: hmm, could be combat as well.. 50 WPL + 2 chip & backbone... and driver and recycler and 75 repairer... brr..
If you capped your spy you could have 122 CST(highest TL item) and have 170-180 RES. This is with a SS and Advanced Nerves 3, swapping Machina gloves too.
You could take it further with buffs, swapping CST chips and using a hawkings. You could probably get RES to about 200 if you didn't want to build the tl 122 item and swapped imps.
If tl115 was highest item you want to build then, Hawkings + SS + cst 2 and 3. That is +45 with head imps. Glove + 15. Buff + 10.
So that's +70 to CST. 115-70 = 45. That leaves 164 fo RES. +28 for imps. +15 for glove. +4 for buff. So +47. 164 + 47 = 210.
Take it even furth with factorys and lvl 3 buffs. Like eric said, you can get +130 CST. So you dont even need anything in CST if you have everything available.
That is screwed up.
nice post eric
5 stars :D
tomparadox
09-10-03, 16:42
i agree with your post completly one thing with 180 barter how mutch are you saveing on a normaly say 700k app with no barter put in the 180 barter how mutch are you saveing?
EDIT btw forgot to add anuther 5 stars from me too
juvestar15 trouble with advance nerve 3 is you lose 3 STR. so not much good if you want to wear full battle 3 armour.
as for the constructer thing. well least they can be both combat and tradeskill. same as implanting but research is a non combat class skill. even the setups i thought up which don't include MC-5 chips. still only leave me with minimum mob hunting skills. thats without any small resist sept maybe belts.
Cruzbroker
09-10-03, 16:51
Heavy deflector belt goes for everything ( got now -3 str and can use only lvl2 battle armors), can take hits from decayed horror if they don't shoot 2 times in a second... so it's not a problem if ur not able to use battle 3..
Originally posted by ericdraven
A capped spy (INT/DEX100) needs CST 105 TO CAP ALL WEAPONS and that means he also caps ALL RARES, and - very important - cappes the probability for slots AND cappes the stats of rares.
So you mean that base DEX and INT is whats used and not the the value with all the implants?
Yea nice....
Remember my cst on Saturn a d00d asked inspector gadget "If I am right...." To cst a NCPD Tride and he replied I am busy so let "fart" <-- me do the job... Fair enough he jokes about my "low" 130 ish and gadgets all over 180..
Oooh well he handed me ONE! bp and all those wps.
Tadaaaa 4 slotted capped Tride... ooh yea me lousy 130 ish CST:er :rolleyes:
Original monk
09-10-03, 16:53
nice thread you read my mind, + its funny also :P
tomparadox
09-10-03, 16:54
yes forgot to say reserch needs unnerfing too i have caped resercher was reserching rare at like TL 180 to 190 reserch was about 220 or sumthing at OP we ownd and at the OP failed every Tech part i meen ffs caped resercher failing techparts i reloged nothing worked half of them faild and the e techparts faild the most
ghandisfury
09-10-03, 16:55
Originally posted by ericdraven
[B]What could be possible / would be nice - a slightly higher chance for slots AND stats.
Agreed, but not on rares. I think that a high level constructor should get a HUGE bonus on building non-rare items. So many people say that "rares are required for combat".....the only reason for this is that non-rares are so hard to cap.
Lets not forget the constructors brother.....the poor researcher. He is unable to put 4 imps in his head and become "capped". Not only that, but the only skill he levels while researching is intel, and let's not forget if he's not double the TL of the rare, he has a chance of breaking it. Then even though the only stat we level is intel, and we break rares if we are not double TL, and we have only 3 choices of implants, and our best boost only gives us 16.....we get absolutely no recognition for our hard work. Only the constructor that (as you stated above) can litterally have 0 skill in constructing gets his name on the item.
I think both need a big boost, but the researcher needs it much much more.
wow... is that.. ericdravern complaining??
anyway, for once i totally agree with you, in beta when speichilization was not ehe combat was alot more down to skill
i think someone should make a poll on this :)
spechilization HAS GOTTA go
Excellent post. KK better read this.
How about instead of giving more specialisation in one area we decrease specialisation in all the other areas.
Its my understanding that TL 150 Research is all you really need.
My Spy is a researcher, i plan to up Research to tl 131 (base)
4 will come from const boost, and 15 from research gloves.
This way ive got free points to put into 55 haking (60 with spy boost) and more points into weapon lore.
Hes a Rifle spy btw :)
If what I read here is true, then to NEVER fail while researching (or rarly fail) you need double the TL of the item.
If so, does that mean I have to gimp my spy MORE?
As well, I have NEVER seen a slot enhancer...... how do you get em?
And again, some people still think that if you construct the same item several times in a row, theres a greater chance to get slots. :lol:
ericdraven
09-10-03, 17:04
Originally posted by tomparadox
i agree with your post completly one thing with 180 barter how mutch are you saveing on a normaly say 700k app with no barter put in the 180 barter how mutch are you saveing?
You'd save 289,7 k.
Originally posted by Weazle
So you mean that base DEX and INT is whats used and not the the value with all the implants?
No, i think the implant value is taken. It was just a simple example (easier to calculate with 100/100) :p
RuriHoshino
09-10-03, 17:13
Originally posted by Zanathos
Its my understanding that TL 150 Research is all you really need.
My Spy is a researcher, i plan to up Research to tl 131 (base)
4 will come from const boost, and 15 from research gloves.
This way ive got free points to put into 55 haking (60 with spy boost) and more points into weapon lore.
Hes a Rifle spy btw :)
If what I read here is true, then to NEVER fail while researching (or rarly fail) you need double the TL of the item.
If so, does that mean I have to gimp my spy MORE?
As well, I have NEVER seen a slot enhancer...... how do you get em?
And again, some people still think that if you construct the same item several times in a row, theres a greater chance to get slots. :lol:
They drop as rare parts...experimental 0.9= 1 slot....slotenhancer 1.5= 2 slots....illegal slotenhancer= 3 slots.
0.9 needs 4 parts...1.5 needs 5 parts...illegal needs 6 parts.
All are the lowtech parts. (I think...the illegal might be T's instead)
ghandisfury
09-10-03, 17:13
Originally posted by Zanathos
Its my understanding that TL 150 Research is all you really need.
My Spy is a researcher, i plan to up Research to tl 131 (base)
4 will come from const boost, and 15 from research gloves.
This way ive got free points to put into 55 haking (60 with spy boost) and more points into weapon lore.
Hes a Rifle spy btw :)
If what I read here is true, then to NEVER fail while researching (or rarly fail) you need double the TL of the item.
If so, does that mean I have to gimp my spy MORE?
As well, I have NEVER seen a slot enhancer...... how do you get em?
And again, some people still think that if you construct the same item several times in a row, theres a greater chance to get slots. :lol:
Yes, like I said you are not able to pop in 4 imps, hit a factorie, and be fully capped with 0 skill points in reasearch. The best you could get with 0 skill in research is 111 skill (this is with a factorie and the rarest implants in the game). Now, if you had a lab available at all times, you could put 120 in research (base) and put in all imps/gloves have a PPU with you....you're capped.
I got a little question on the side. I`ve heared that barter caps at 120. So what Im told is not true then? Is the gain in barter lower as you get over 100 or is it the same as below?
The more Neo is leaning into specialisation , the less practical a Private Eye becomes...
*worries*
Ah bloody hell... im not gimping my spy that much... I want something else to do rather than research or use pistols.
127 was fine to do tl 90 items. (a drone and tech part (not low or high)
When I get TL 131 (150 with research gloves and const buff), those people who want punishers will just have to be patient.
Or mebbe me get 100 in weapon lore (which gets me about 130-140 with imps and boosts, balistics 3, rifle eye, and rifle boost)
Which is more than what i had planned before, at that point ill spare more points into research..........
Still gotta calculate this though.
But im not gonna gimp my spy too much :p
ericdraven
09-10-03, 17:23
Originally posted by Mirco
I got a little question on the side. I`ve heared that barter caps at 120. So what Im told is not true then? Is the gain in barter lower as you get over 100 or is it the same as below?
Not true.
The flip point for the barter is at 105. Below 100 it follows a linear formula, above 100 it's a little bit crazy. But i've seen no cap so far.
juvestar15
09-10-03, 17:25
Originally posted by enablerbr
juvestar15 trouble with advance nerve 3 is you lose 3 STR. so not much good if you want to wear full battle 3 armour.
as for the constructer thing. well least they can be both combat and tradeskill. same as implanting but research is a non combat class skill. even the setups i thought up which don't include MC-5 chips. still only leave me with minimum mob hunting skills. thats without any small resist sept maybe belts.
hehe sorry im in 4 character server mode. :)
I guess on a 1 char server that spy model isn't practicle unless you really don't want to PvP. For a 4 char server it could become the "in" thing. I know a few players that have LOMed all combat and put all into the tradeskill. Of course they have other PvP chars. :)
My story about constructors. I've already posted it once, can't remember where but I'll post it again.
But it would involve a hugh adjustment to the constructor system so I think it will never be implemented anyway.
It actually makes constructing work more like a researcher.
Make it so that you need double the skill of the TL in order to cap a weapon. So a TL30 constructor can cap a TL15 weapon, but you need a TL208 constructor to cap a Holy Resurrection for example.
This would remove the fact that everyone is always looking for a high level constructor because a TL30 constructor has as much change for slots on a TL15 weapon as a TL300 constructor.
So low level constructors can get jobs again, but people still need the TL200+ constructors for rares or other TL100+ weapons.
So a construct skill of 244 becomes the cap.
tomparadox
09-10-03, 17:29
Its my understanding that TL 150 Research is all you really need.
who told you that nooffenc but if thats tru why do i fail E and low techparts with a TL 190 + caped int and dex resercher
tomparadox
09-10-03, 17:32
Not true.
The flip point for the barter is at 105. Below 100 it follows a linear formula, above 100 it's a little bit crazy. But i've seen no cap so far.
so for say a via 3 app was 700k how mutch would you actuly save with 180 barter compaired to 120? jest curios
Fail constantly?
Ive researched a bunch of L's and T's, a few E's, havent failed that much, maybe 7 times out of 25 of em. I really dont remember.
And no one told me, I just assumed since the highest tl for a researched item is 122, then 150 should be enough to research it.
E parts are TL 110 I believe, I've only actually looked at the T's (90) and L's (70)
Least thats what I remember..........
And btw, my clanmate on his PE (Why its a PE i dont know) has 137 Research, and he does rare parts all the time for our clan. (Dont know how good he is with Punishers.)
So I just figured 150 Research would be enough.
You need double the TL of the item if you almost never want to fail however. (which is now what i understand)
And to the Construction idea, Yeah, having double of the skill would be good.
BUT.
Most constructors that high a level are between 200 and 225. (225 is highest TL constructor ive seen)
And about the bartering.
A TL 180 Barter on a 700k item should save you around 300k, maybe more, maybe less, maybe much more or less)
I just know a tl 143 Barter reduced the cost of my Research tool from 780k to 520k (260k saved)
tomparadox
09-10-03, 17:41
VOTE FOR THIS POLL HERE (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78316)
heres a poll for this thred hope none minds
ghandisfury
09-10-03, 17:47
Originally posted by Zanathos
Ah bloody hell... im not gimping my spy that much... I want something else to do rather than research or use pistols.
127 was fine to do tl 90 items. (a drone and tech part (not low or high)
When I get TL 131 (150 with research gloves and const buff), those people who want punishers will just have to be patient.
Or mebbe me get 100 in weapon lore (which gets me about 130-140 with imps and boosts, balistics 3, rifle eye, and rifle boost)
Which is more than what i had planned before, at that point ill spare more points into research..........
Still gotta calculate this though.
But im not gonna gimp my spy too much :p
:rolleyes: You have a 40% chance of failing the research process, and a 30% chance of breaking you rare at that low of a level. PLUS you will either not do batch jobs of high TL items for long, *or* you will increase you skill on that character.
Originally posted by Maarten
My story about constructors. I've already posted it once, can't remember where but I'll post it again.
But it would involve a hugh adjustment to the constructor system so I think it will never be implemented anyway.
It actually makes constructing work more like a researcher.
Make it so that you need double the skill of the TL in order to cap a weapon. So a TL30 constructor can cap a TL15 weapon, but you need a TL208 constructor to cap a Holy Resurrection for example.
This would remove the fact that everyone is always looking for a high level constructor because a TL30 constructor has as much change for slots on a TL15 weapon as a TL300 constructor.
So low level constructors can get jobs again, but people still need the TL200+ constructors for rares or other TL100+ weapons.
So a construct skill of 244 becomes the cap.
So instead of boosting, and making specialization acually usefull...you want a major nerf? I challenge you to "work" in plaza with even 100 construction skill....you *might* get some modding jobs.
so ericdraven whats the construction skill max needed. if you were a PPU monk. seeing as monks don't have high DEX. don't take into account any OP bonuses but do take into account construction boost 3 being cast.
Another fabulous post eric.. i agree with you 100 percent.. I never see a reason to go to anyont 200 plus.. I always go to the guy i know will do what i want.
Let's look at it this way.. i use my friends cst person all the time and he is only 132.. but i know that he will build me 50 items from bp from chemicals.. and do it gladly.. I would rather have a low end guy create 50 items to get good slots than bank it all on some guy that sits on a bench and won't move for you or do anything extra if you ask all because he is the elite 200 plus cst.
If there was a way to do it the only way they are going to make it better is to have a grading slot factor like a curve much like you gain damage in a pistol pe when you add pc you gain a better chance to have a slot the more cst you have..
who knows if it's possible but then at least it would make it worthwhile to have a full cst character.
ericdraven
09-10-03, 17:50
Originally posted by tomparadox
so for say a via 3 app was 700k how mutch would you actuly save with 180 barter compaired to 120? jest curios
Make a barter and test it. :p
OK - a 700k app costs
700 k with BRT 0 :p (little less, INT counts toward bartering too)
618,9 k with BRT 50
537,7 k with BRT 100
474 k with BRT 120
436,9 k with BRT 150
enough? ;)
/EDIT:
Originally posted by enablerbr
so ericdraven whats the construction skill max needed. if you were a PPU monk. seeing as monks don't have high DEX. don't take into account any OP bonuses but do take into account construction boost 3 being cast.
Err.. i don't want to be the public calculator now.. :p
I published the formula, so use it! :)
A capped monk (INT100/DEX35) needs CST 121. However you get it (with imps, booster, fac, ...).
/EDIT2: err...
Originally posted by ericdraven
If you take two average players with same skills:
Player A - pistol tech PE, runs fast, can repair his stuff, recycles, can drive all vehicles and uses stealth & Judge.
Player B - pistol tech PE, runs not so fast, uses stealth & Judge.
Who will win the duel? (remember, both have the same skills).
The winner will be the smart one who drops the Judge and picks up a Blacksun :p
I assume the figures you gave me for the researching for rares is with capped intelligence? cause that DOES affect research (at least it looks like it does) I suppose in the future I can use advanced nerves 3 for research boost (when i dont need that much dex from implants)
But right now I want 55 hacking and 100 Weapon Lore, I will determine how much research I can get later on in the day when i have actual time to sit down and go through it (which doesnt take long but its lunch time at school so ill wait for math class :angel: )
If i factor in implants and buffs, (level 1 const not 3 as not everyone has access to a full time ppu), i figure I can probably get around 155 or 160 research.
If i get the research gloves and the advanced nerves. I can both LoM hacking and get more research and have more research from the advanced nerves 3
Which is the MOST im getting, i WANT the 100 weapon lore so my reticle closses decently so that my spy can PvP.
so basically, 55 hacking (60 with buff) 100 weapon lore is what i want no matter what. The rest of my points go into Research. Id get 23 points JUST from the gloves and advanced nerves 3. 27 with buff. I have about 115 research right now base. (I recently lomed it for 55 hacking) so that gives me about 140 research RIGHT NOW. i still have another 28 intelligence levels to go (some of which will go into weapon lore. So Ive got at least another 20 points into there.
So 160 research :)
And I was right about the barter thing then.
180 barter on a 700k item reduces it by 300k about.
As I recall the info Thanatos gave us on CST only applied to non-rares. Is that not the case.
Certainly it's been shown and confirmed by KK that the "formula" does not give you a cap-level. It's just the ratio of the 3 skill factors in an equation we don't have.
Has any of this changed or has someone proved otherwise from analysing the client-side files. If it's from the files I'd like to know their process as a lot of people have definitely been misreading those files.
I do tend to agree with Eric et al though - there does seem to be no advantage over 150.
wrt RES - I like 200+ for doing MC5s. I just hate the idea of wasting my time in that awful place for no reward. Luckily my RES can do that so it's not so bad.
well heres my research/rilfe spy setup i'm aiming for.
INT: 117
weapon lore : 126
research : 180
STR: 40
transport : 100
resist force : 25
DEX: 113
rifle combat : 143
hightech combat : 105
agility : 48
repair : 62
CON: 43
athletics : 48
body health : 90
endurance : 15
resist fire : 16
resist energy : 16
resist xray : 16
PSI: 20
passive psi use : 45
mental steadiness : 22
psi power : 12
resist psi : 18
implants & bones:
distance weapon cpu3
SF
SS
exp balisticweaponchip 3
smart cybereye 4
strengthen heart 2
machina research glove
strength boost 2
adv head
adv chest
adv arm
adv leg
adv foot
i doubt i'll be capping any rare rifles with it. yet i hope it'll be good with mobs.
ericdraven
09-10-03, 18:19
Originally posted by enablerbr
well heres my research/rilfe spy setup i'm aiming for.
resist psi : 18
o_O
(dummy line to not violate the forum rules)
4 things, why the hell do you have resist psi when it does nothing (according to others at least)
and 15 in each of the natural resists in con? you might as well have nothing since 15 will do very litle to help. You may wanna decide on which 2 to specialize in. Such as energy or fire. 15 poison resist will do very little in reducing the dmg a stack of 5 poisons do.
Why do you have so much body health? at that leve you must have about 300 health :) Spies really shouldnt have more than 250, excluding resist booster.
And why do you have 100 transport...... What the heck are you carrying on that spy?
And yeah, Constructors need some benefit for getting such a high construction level.
If not at least a guaranteed slot above tl 200 construction skill.
Which if you have the best slot enhancer, guarentees you 4 slots :)
well despite others views on psi resist not working. i have found that on mobs like arc lt's that if i have no fire resist and only psi resist. the fire spell doesn't last long. than if i had fire resist and no psi resist. though i've never seen psi resist work in terms of PvP only PvM.
edit: 100 transport means a hell of a lot of medi kits and ammo. :p
great post i agree with u eric!
although i think it applyes to researchers too.
the only advantage of going over 150 is to go faster and i guess for construction it's the same! exept breaking a few empty datacubes from time to time with is not worth the few more int lvls!
Arf, I agree so much (apart from your translation of raison d'etre), my constructor is around 190 now without buffs and the highest item I've built is a 4 slot Silent Hunter, however, that's it, everything else has been crap (i.e. 3 slots or less and bad stats (even worse I've built 7 (count 'em !!!!!!) disruptors and the best I got was 1 slot with 115dmg/103freq/105handling/104range)).
All valid points
I fully agree
Yet KK insists on keeping it the same, despite that wat eric has is true, logical and most of all
FAIR to those spent a lot of their time getting their cst up.
Come on KK give us constructers a reason to be around :)
Eledhbrant
09-10-03, 20:24
Read all of Eric's post and some replies.
I agree, uber constructors should get some kind of bonus.
I had a TL 190 Constructor (before cst chips increased and gloves existed) make two No-Slot Holy Paralysis' in a row.
Whereas recently a TL 130 or so Constructor made me a 3 slot Pain Easer with Frequency 120% and other stats cappable with 2 mods + an ammo mod.
Higher CST'ers dont get anything really...
Spy<VS>Spy
09-10-03, 21:20
just wanted to kinda voice out, yes everything elric said is correct. its one of those things, where the neocron community 'seems' to be on the most part ignorent of. i've had my fair share of these kind of posts all the way back in beta three where i used to race mango for the highest cst level in neocron.
why? we belived that the higher you had, the better shit ya built. but that slowly began to change with each patch. of course back then the highest construction you could get i belive was 168 because we lacked the implants.
i've all but removed my construction implants on my spy, i have a solid 150 natrual construction...no one cares...whats your build skill, whats your build skill...like it fucken matter, i'm a capped spy, i could have 50 and theoritcly with the right implants and shit build you a capped weapon without sweating it.
what does this mean though, well its good in a way, in theory i could just have a base of 100 construction and throw everything into weapons lore and be a pretty kick ass rifle spy...i'd have to move a few chips, or have a factory to build uber stuff but the point is, its not needed.
anyways, people still pay crazy amount of money to these people with crazy stats. drugging em up or dragging em around the waste lands.
you'll never catch beta vet going to all that trouble, you got just as much chance for a 5 slot with a 120 constructor then a 250 one.
in fact as has been mentioned for about oh...700 times, construction skill seems to have sweet spots for slots, and i agree, 120-130 seems to love spitting out high slots. though for an APC building man, being at about 170 is good for speed and profit.
the ONLY case i can think of seeing the need for uber constructors, is in the case of drones...which are SOB's to produce. anywho, happy building, may the slots be with you.
yeah i hope kk gives high tl constrs luvin'...
tahts the only reason i'mma keep my shitty cst at high tl... else i'mma lom him to res/weap...
Mr Friendly
09-10-03, 23:19
Originally posted by ericdraven
Or do you think it's OK that someone with level 300 makes the same items as someone with 150? Do you? I don't think so
i cant remember which GM said it, but he stated that "every subskill has a sweet spot. a flip point, where anything over it will either decrease or do nothing."
though, some ppl think 200 is the flip point & some think 150 is.........either way, u choose ur own path =) & ill continue with mine :p
CRAIG DIGGERS
10-10-03, 12:35
Originally posted by enablerbr
well despite others views on psi resist not working. i have found that on mobs like arc lt's that if i have no fire resist and only psi resist. the fire spell doesn't last long. than if i had fire resist and no psi resist. though i've never seen psi resist work in terms of PvP only PvM.
Erm yes whats a heal spell ? Psi influence ? I really didnt test anytime,
but if it worked right you heal bad ^.^
To the topic. I have nothing to say to high CST's anymore, i tryed to mail to support and the answer was slots and stats are random. Another char for nothing ? thx KK plz change it in your Roleplaygame.
Roleplay means more specializ better weapons, not that shit you did here.
Sorry, but random on stats with a capped construtor is just a joke nothing more ...
MADE IN SWITZERLAND capped cst on uranus
Thanks Eric :)
I agree totally.
If any of you guys are rally interested in this topic... please read the original thread as eric mentioned. It was a calm and sensible dicussion and a major experiment was conducted to prove our points.
This is something that some people feel very strongly about but not many people are aware of.
CONSTRUCTORS UNITE!
Tell KK you want to be rewarded for Specialisation like any other class!
Someone made an extremely valid point that the calculation (if there is one?) and coding for construction was probably written many moons ago by someone who has left KK since. To me it has not been reviewed/developed/considered from that point.
Please give a constructor a real JOB!!!!!!!
I totally agree Eric.... Even though I only have an average CST. :)
last nite i saw a contstructor with 150 make a near articfact spell, stats where 117, 110, 115, 119 i belive and guess what
it was a 5 slotter
Darth Slayer
10-10-03, 18:29
Well 5 Stars Eric nice well thought out post matey.
My cst is base 130 /140 with SS chip, now at Factory I'm 190, good enough for me. The problem I seem to get with construction is that when I build a Low tech item it is very rare I get slots. Build a rare and it's two slots at the least. (Allow for occasional blip)
Now I'm fully capped with 123 dex and 112 Int and I still tend to get bugger all slots on low tech items and please don't get me started on Spells...:(
Still this has been a very informative post Eric and gives me much to think of.
AGREE
My point of view :
Construction at NC is easy get the BP and all the parts grap your tool and hit start.
The all u can do is hope for the best
The only thing u can be sure about is the cap for non-rare stuff.
So why should I put even more points into Construction ?
I stopped to post my skill(200+) at plaza when i want to make some money cause it doesnt change anything
Only keeps the ppl from bugging me when its no 4 or 5 slotter
KK PLS BENEFIT HIGHLEVEL CONSTERS
I like the idea to handle Construction like research so low level consters will get some jobs too.
Or a higher chance for slots if u have TL*2 Skill ?
anyways ty eric
Don’t agree at all. So what if high level constructors are useless. You should be happy because now you can do something else with your spy. Infact a player can quite easily be an uber constructor/research now. What is wrong with that exactly? Perhaps my opinion is slanted because I am on a one character server.
Of course, I agree with you Eric, I dunno if KK will even look at this though.. I mean, it isn't like they fixed spelling errors and I'm sure those take less time to remedy.
great post eric, i read it to the end and learnt a lot - thanks
but mantus isnt wut you described wut kk wanted to avoid in the beginning? to avoid having people doing multiple tradeskills? (hence the LoMs changes so people cant swap between tradeskills that efficiently)
i think more rewards for specialization are warented in the case of constructors.
KRIMINAL99
14-10-03, 04:18
My main and only complaint about specialization is that if you choose to specialize in combat you cant get any rewards for your work. Instead some hacker comes and gets your belts when noones around.
Hammer_AoD
17-11-03, 18:05
Originally posted by ericdraven
For those who want to know when you cap a constructor:
CAP = (103 - DEX * 0.25 - INT * 0.15) / 0.6
Hi eric first question from where you get the 103 ?
Also i thing the formular
INT 15% DEx 25% CST 60% = CS Wert
is not correct.
some test i do give you verry diffrent CS wert at same quallitty
I build TL1 with tool 30 on diffrent chr they get all 64% quallity
1. SPY
INT 50 DEX 51 CST 39 = 37,4
2. Monk
INT 91 DEX 39 CST 30 = 41,4 :wtf:
3. PE
INT 66 DEX 98 CST 5 = 43,65 :wtf:
4. SPY
INT 22 DEX 21 CST 67 = 48,75 :eek:
what we see is diffrent up to 10 point thats many
so there must be something else.
also there is a single flip point around CST 100
also at the TL1 with Tool30
Spy
INT 43 DEX 45 CST 100 i get 81%
with 1 point CST more (101) i get 84%
after that point it goes normal on than before
same as other chr
Spy
INT 50 DEX 51 CST 100 i get 83%
with 1 point more CST (101) i get 86%
so thats why i thing the formal is not true
howy007
SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH :D :angel
robdekoning
17-11-03, 18:10
very nice post eric
KRIMINAL99
17-11-03, 18:12
Woah woah woah... Who ever said for sure that rare weapons quality chance doesn't increase for higher level construct skill...
Just because its random doesn't mean the chances cant be upped for higher level skills. Are you basing this on somehting a dev or at least a GM said?
ericdraven
17-11-03, 18:24
Originally posted by Hammer_AoD
Hi eric first question from where you get the 103 ?
Testing.
Maybe it changed, but i didn't recognize a difference recently.
so thats why i thing the formal is not true
Yes, it *IS* not "true".. depends what you consider as "true" tho. :D
However, because i got bored of the game in general i made a lot of tests recently to look "behind the scenes" (not only about constructing) and i have to say that the Skills guide (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69477) is not "true" at all.. maybe.. some day.. i will publish all formula i found out.. atm i am too lazy. ;)
i read it to ure end couldnt be arsed reading the rest so ll just add that at construct 15 and 300 the guy at 300 should have something that the guy at 150 does not like reduced lube consumption or maby after construction it gives u some parts back and u should get slightly better stats n maby increased chance of 1 2 3 sloters u should hardley ever get 0 slots.
Hammer_AoD
17-11-03, 20:10
Originally posted by ericdraven
Testing.
Maybe it changed, but i didn't recognize a difference recently.
[b]
Yes, it *IS* not "true".. depends what you consider as "true" tho. :D
However, because i got bored of the game in general i made a lot of tests recently to look "behind the scenes" (not only about constructing) and i have to say that the Skills guide (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69477) is not "true" at all.. maybe.. some day.. i will publish all formula i found out.. atm i am too lazy. ;)
Thats all i whant to here from you ;) :D
howy007
CRAIG DIGGERS
17-11-03, 20:12
Bump old threads is forbidden !
anyway slots and stats are random, never go over 250 cst.
Darth Slayer
17-11-03, 23:25
You know some people have way way too much time on there hands.......:p
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