View Full Version : One coder - CoDi? What will happen when DoY DOES come?
Ok, let me get this straight. The entire game is now being maintained by a single programmer? So let's assume DoY is actually finished so he doesn't need to worry about making it (and DoY is just waiting for a publisher).
So when DoY does come out, it will be the most horrid thing to ever hit Neocron. (Before anyone flames me, take a look at ANY expansions to any game out there. Because expansions are built to work on top of existing code there are always horrid bugs that take on average a month to squash properly. And that's when there's a reasonably sized team working on it.)
So based on what we've seen so far from KK's patches, can you really expect DoY to be better than these minor patches in terms of glitches or worse? Now let's add to the equation the lone programmer CoDi, who is doing an awesome job, but will have to both keep the game running AND fix bugs in DoY, and he would have to do it all alone?!
This again reminds me of why I quit this game. I simply don't see DoY as being the "great messiah" for Neocron. I think it's far more likely to be the gream reaper that will give Neocron the final blow. Now I don't want to see that happen. I, like everyone else, have seen a lot of potential in this game ever since I joined. And since then not a single step was taken to realize this potential.
If you disagree, please explain in detail. Flames or profanities will simply be ignored therefore if you even want me to read your replies, please try to be civil.
(And hoping KK will take notice of this post also).
P.S. I would have posted this in Reef's thread had he not asked the mods to close it. So I decided to start a new one.
i thought there where 3....can someone point me to this new info
{MD}GeistDamnit
07-10-03, 07:52
it's funny.........when people think of and speak of DoY, the genral consensus is that "doy" is this finished,coded and wonderfull ready made enhancement to neocron. but if doy was "finished" then why do we still have bug's ?
now that I look at the situation, I don't want doy to come, cause I fear new bugs, and more lag, cause servers lag and bugg out with the low ammount of players there is now :/
so your point is 100% correct man
doy = more money from more people = more programmers.
perhaps.
FBI
KidWithStick
07-10-03, 08:22
Originally posted by FBI
doy = more money from more people = more programmers.
perhaps.
FBI
or perhaps more rolex watches for MJS:rolleyes:
MjukisDjur
07-10-03, 08:33
what if Codi have a car accident or decides this sucks and feels like going on to another software company? :eek:
We are doomed, dooooooomed
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
what if Codi have a car accident or decides this sucks and feels like going on to another software company? :eek:
We are doomed, dooooooomed
I'm sure he'd be replaced if it came down to that. I think everone
is overreacting a bit.
FBI
Originally posted by FBI
I'm sure he'd be replaced if it came down to that. I think everone
is overreacting a bit.
FBI
Do you have any idea what's involved with replacing a programmer? Especially on a low budget project where they have little to no programmer-side documentation? (As evident from the non-stop bugs and botched patches). The new programmers would pretty much have to read and analyze every single line of code trying to figure out what it does. And that would take months! (I am not kidding). Just try to read someone else's code. Or heck, try to read Linux and without reading ANY of the documentation that comes with it to write a module for the kernel for instance.
Originally posted by FBI
I'm sure he'd be replaced if it came down to that. I think everone
is overreacting a bit.
FBI maybe he has a contract that says
"You will never leave Reakktor. If you choose to leave, Reakktor and MJS will come to your home, staple your nuts to the wall, tear down the wall, and set it on fire along with your nuts. We have no need for your nuts, so you will still be working for us even after this occurs. Thank you for choosing Reakktor for your place of employment. Have a good day!"
I saw a brand new mercedes with the licenseplate MJS 131 last nite. With the unique ability to stay off topic im guessing mjs moved to sweden with his 131 cars...
Originally posted by Lareolan
Do you have any idea what's involved with replacing a programmer? Especially on a low budget project where they have little to no programmer-side documentation? (As evident from the non-stop bugs and botched patches). The new programmers would pretty much have to read and analyze every single line of code trying to figure out what it does. And that would take months! (I am not kidding). Just try to read someone else's code. Or heck, try to read Linux and without reading ANY of the documentation that comes with it to write a module for the kernel for instance.
Depends how well they commented in their code as well as making
the code explicit. An experienced programmer always knows what
the code is doing, and if he doesn't that's what the comments are
there for.
As for the bugs, no body is currently fixing them anyway, and I
think that's where a programmer new to neocron's source would
struggle, but to do what CoDi has been doing (additions,
modifications, etc) for the past several months can be done by
a replacement programmer who is trained.
Not to bring CoDi down, I'm sure he has done some phenomenal
coding, but recently (except for the PE bug which was probably
fixed by a earlier DLL revision) their hasn't been any significant
bug fixing, netcode tweaks or anything alike. Just patches that
address exploits, new implants, weapons, etc. I've been coding
for about 9 years now, 4 years professionally so I'm not talking
out of my arse.
I think people are overreacting a bit, i'll repeat myself.
FBI
Originally posted by FBI
doy = more money from more people = more programmers.
perhaps.
FBI
/ot
I hope you're right. Frankly, I fail to see how an expansion pack would interest people to join. Unless ofcourse the pack generates tremendous mouth-to-mouth (ear rather) advertising...
Maybe KK should consider to throw in free accounts. Make ppl pay only if they want to develop their chars over 60 skill or after 3 months or so.
Implementing new maps and areas has little if anything to do
with programming. Its all design work.
Is CoDi the only programmer KK have or the only one working on Neocron at present?
CoDi is the only one working at present. Another programmer is currently on holiday leave (I lost track of his name and his ETA, sorry ^^; ) and as such he is the only one currently doing any coding.
See, here's the problem......if a programmer of a 2-programmer team goes on holiday leave, they should be replaced until his return. KK has done nothing to support CoDi in this manner.
If KK isn't going to have a replacement to work with CoDi, how sure can one be that they will replace CoDi himself? It's hard enough to get a programmer as good (and as DEDICATED) as CoDi, but then there's the first step of actually wanting to get one.
Anyway...DoY has been pushed back repeatedly for approximately a half-year, from April to now January. I think this would be because CoDi wants to make doubly-sure that he can eradicate as many bugs as possible by himself, since he isn't getting much support otherwise.
Something bothers me though...I find it a little irresponsible, but I have no knowledge of the programmers' lives, so I can't actually think anything of them. However...why would one programmer out of a 2-programmer team take a holiday leave in the middle of a project? I'm sure he felt he deserved it, but perhaps it would have been a better idea to persevere until at least the finishing of DoY?
Hmm, I think they have more than just Codi, he is just the new LEAD programmer I think.
Originally posted by Kenjuten
CoDi is the only one working at present. Another programmer is currently on holiday leave (I lost track of his name and his ETA, sorry ^^; ) and as such he is the only one currently doing any coding.
See, here's the problem......if a programmer of a 2-programmer team goes on holiday leave, they should be replaced until his return. KK has done nothing to support CoDi in this manner.
If KK isn't going to have a replacement to work with CoDi, how sure can one be that they will replace CoDi himself? It's hard enough to get a programmer as good (and as DEDICATED) as CoDi, but then there's the first step of actually wanting to get one.
Anyway...DoY has been pushed back repeatedly for approximately a half-year, from April to now January. I think this would be because CoDi wants to make doubly-sure that he can eradicate as many bugs as possible by himself, since he isn't getting much support otherwise.
Something bothers me though...I find it a little irresponsible, but I have no knowledge of the programmers' lives, so I can't actually think anything of them. However...why would one programmer out of a 2-programmer team take a holiday leave in the middle of a project? I'm sure he felt he deserved it, but perhaps it would have been a better idea to persevere until at least the finishing of DoY?
Once again, DoY, is mostly designing, and very little if _any_
coding at all. Once you have all tools for creating worlds the
programmers doesnt have anything to do with that sort of work
at all. Stop confusing CoDis work with Doy. They are most likely
completely separate.
If they are most likely completely separate, I'd like to know who's doing the work on DoY, since KK isn't helping CoDi out at all at current.
Also...they're updating the engine, aren't they? I think it said they were taking certain limitations out of the game engine and working on top of that...who's doing that work? O_o
If they are changing or updating the engine then thats most
definately a programmers table, thats why I said "little if any",
and "moste likely completely seperate". Creating an expansion is
99% design work.
Originally posted by Kenjuten
CoDi is the only one working at present.
I htought Iorghe got a job there as well and is doing some programming. And not all employees are programmers, but the others stilll add some things to DoY. Besides of Codi and Iorghe, I know that Holger Nathrath and SnowCrash are working on the content aswell. And there are still some more peoplle working for KK.
A few points to consider :
Rumours - That's all this is. It came from a highly reputable source, that's true, but none the less it's rumours. Reefie is a valuable and respected member of the community and was also a member of the voluntary support team but he was never (AFAIK) a paid employee of KK. All companies keep secrets and KK seem to do this more than most. Until a KK representative says otherwise nothing can be known for certain. You can of course read whatever you like into their silence but you can't prove it.
Job roles - As Rade points out - not every job in NC lands on Codi's desk. Martin or Odin once said that there had never been more than 3 devs on the team which implies there have been less than 3 before. Working alongside the developers there are the artists and paid support staff who can probably cope with a surprisingly large amount of the simpler maintenance tasks. Then there may be a DB guy or other specialists (storyline is now a volunteer post but there may be others). Having one coder for a short time either till another returns or until a new one is recruited is not necessarily a disaster though the coder's gf may disagree.
Revenue Source - What is happening here? This may be far more worrying. Someone posted that CDV have cut funding in the other thread. I have no idea what his source for that is but if KK and CDV have parted company (as seems likely) then what does that mean? Was/is KK running at a loss and CDV are no longer propping them up? Where are our subs now going? As I understand it we pay CDV who give KK their share - if so what are KK now getting (all, some or none of the cash)?
DoY - If we believe what we've been told it's almost ready to ship and it does include major changes to the engine. If this is true then any changes in the current game will have to be applied in parallel to DoY. That's a lot of work (potentially it more than doubles the workload) and I don't see how one person can realistically do it. I therefore seriously doubt we will see DoY until the dev team expands even if it is "nearly ready".
MJS - Where is he? There are too many rumours going round here for him to be unaware. IMO it's negligent of him not to make a statement even if only to confirm or deny specific major points and then refuse to comment further. If I had any business relations with KK (eg I was a potential publisher) I would take these discussions very very seriously even if they lack solid evidence.
There are no major changes to the DoY engine. Some restrictions have been lifted and the DoY textures are higher res. This has been stated before so you may be able to find more detailed information with a search (no that's not a dig, btw :p).
N
2.5 coders
1 master jedi
1 learning
1 Freelancer
KTHX BYE
Fair point Nid. They are major to us but may be trivial to the code-base.
I had (still do to some extent) hoped that DoY would be used an opportunity to clean the decks on large sections of the game though. Things like resists, netcode, DB access and citycom functionality could all use a good rewrite IMO. Obviously I haven't seen the code but they are all areas that have been patched over and around a lot. When that happens too much code gets "exciting" to maintain and an opportunity to clear it out and start again is worth grabbing with both hands.
Originally posted by Ren
2.5 coders
1 master jedi
1 learning
1 Freelancer
KTHX BYE
That sounds more likely.
Codi
Iorghe
(unknown)
Thanks Ren.
/eek - double post. sorry Nid.
Dribble Joy
07-10-03, 16:30
Is KK still with CDV?
Are CDV activley trying to stop KK's search for a new publisher, cos they want the cash that NC generates?
RuriHoshino
07-10-03, 17:07
As for why a programmer would take vacation in the middle of something like this? I was the only programmer for a small (8 people) company where I live...programmers get writers block and burnout just like everyone else who work 50-60 hour weeks. You *have * to take time off or you develop things like ulcers. o_O
Believe me... ulcer=not good!:(
Originally posted by jernau
MJS - Where is he? There are too many rumours going round here for him to be unaware. IMO it's negligent of him not to make a statement even if only to confirm or deny specific major points and then refuse to comment further. If I had any business relations with KK (eg I was a potential publisher) I would take these discussions very very seriously even if they lack solid evidence.
Yeah, where is he? He used to post here regularly and keep us
up to date with a thing or two but now I havent seen him post
anything in ages... doesnt he love us anymore? *sniff*
Originally posted by Rade
Yeah? Where is he? He used to post here regularly and keep us
up to date with a thing or two but now I havent seen him post
anything in ages... doesnt he love us anymore? *sniff*
with any luck hes hatching a plan for neocron to take over the world........or at least getting more people playing the game
Originally posted by ezza
with any luck hes hatching a plan for neocron to take over the world........or at least getting more people playing the game
Well, so far it seems he's being incredibly successful doing the opposite. Everyone is leaving the game. I left, all my RL friends left (independently of me). People are canceling their spare accounts to cut their losses. Heck, even long time GMs and MODs are leaving! The number of leaving threads increases daily and it's very alarming honstly as even though I left, I still had hopes that perhaps someone will turn this game around. There have been examples in other MMOGs where it was done. But the longer I lurk about here, the less likely I think that Neocron will do a 180. :(
And DoY DOES require a lot of coding because don't forget about all the new features! Do you think you just take new guns, new implants, new factions etc... and you just add them in and they magically work? All those things require coding to explain to the game how they're supposed to work. It is NOT just artwork in making the 2D inventory icon and a 3D model for the new item and it's done. Doesn't work like that. And I know it wouldn't take much on a normal project, but somehow I am very skeptical of the clarity and reusability of the code that they already have due to the incredible amount of patching and hacking so most likely getting any new feature to work is a job in and of itself. (Otherwise we would have seen at the very least a lot more new content in the games parallel to the programmer's work on bugs since if that were the case, CoDi would not have been needed at all for those.)
Originally posted by Lareolan
And DoY DOES require a lot of coding because don't forget about all the new features! Do you think you just take new guns, new implants, new factions etc... and you just add them in and they magically work?
That depends 100% on the design and architecture of the game engine. It should be very simple if the design is sound. None of us have seen the code so we can't say whether or not it's easy for certain. Some things I've seen them do make me think it's easy and some make me think it's hard.
Originally posted by jernau
That depends 100% on the design and architecture of the game engine. It should be very simple if the design is sound. None of us have seen the code so we can't say whether or not it's easy for certain. Some things I've seen them do make me think it's easy and some make me think it's hard.
Adding new textures, weapons, factions and all other stuff is just
database work, usually done by a designer. Unless the code is
very clumsy you dont bother programmers with this sort of stuff.
However of course there might be a few new features that
requires programming, but there doesnt have to be any and I bet
that if any, they are pretty minor.
Originally posted by Rade
Adding new textures, weapons, factions and all other stuff is just
database work, usually done by a designer. Unless the code is
very clumsy you dont bother programmers with this sort of stuff.
However of course there might be a few new features that
requires programming, but there doesnt have to be any and I bet
that if any, they are pretty minor.
My thoughts exactly. Never underestimate how crufty code can get though if you've not had time to redo it all for long enough. Weapon effects worry me as I'm not sure how they've implented them.
Originally posted by jernau
My thoughts exactly. Never underestimate how crufty code can get though if you've not had time to redo it all for long enough. Weapon effects worry me as I'm not sure how they've implented them.
Im a fan of xp myself. Remake all code all the time. Its so nice
with completely uncrufty code :D
XP is good, if people obey the processes.
I worked on a pure XP project (barring the pair programmers). It went like a dream and delivered on time and in excellent quality.
Then I worked on another which had the XP processes in place but some of the new people starting thought XP was a pile of crap and ignored most of the processes and the thing just turned into a nightmare, horribly late and people were just dying to leave.
Originally posted by Archeus
XP is good, if people obey the processes.
I worked on a pure XP project (barring the pair programmers). It went like a dream and delivered on time and in excellent quality.
Then I worked on another which had the XP processes in place but some of the new people starting thought XP was a pile of crap and ignored most of the processes and the thing just turned into a nightmare, horribly late and people were just dying to leave.
Heh yeah, imo you can cut out some parts tho.. they made it a
little too extreme in some cases, my guess is that they try
to provoke people alot, you need to adopt it with a critical eye.
Altho imo pair programming is great.
pair programming where I am...
P1: *tap* *tap* *tap*
P2: Dude there is a quicker way to do that.
P1: Really? Show me.
P2: Sure just bookmark the neocron forums and you can use the bookmark to get to them quicker.
P1: excellent, so more time for freecell!
P2: Word!
KRIMINAL99
08-10-03, 18:00
Yeah... I can't wait for all the support responses for DOY.. I can read them now...
Dear mr kriminal99, No we are not teh understanding why is your error. we are the sorry you are have troubles logging in game. to be compensating you for your problem to log in we can give 100k Neocreditz.
ReefSmoker
08-10-03, 18:27
Originally posted by Nasher
Hmm, I think they have more than just Codi, he is just the new LEAD programmer I think.
Ok I'm not going to make the same mistake I made last time, instead I'll ask you to back up your statements with something substantial. Anyone could make the comment you've just made, what I want to see is something that corroborates what you have posted.
Originally posted by Felissa
I htought Iorghe got a job there as well and is doing some programming. And not all employees are programmers, but the others stilll add some things to DoY. Besides of Codi and Iorghe, I know that Holger Nathrath and SnowCrash are working on the content aswell. And there are still some more peoplle working for KK.
Iorghe was employed by Reakktor to work on NEMA, and since joining them has expressed a desire to get involved with programming. While I do not know his coding background, I do know that he does not have the necessary skills with C as of yet, due to a Reakktor employee telling me that he still needed to be familiarised with C and would receive training. No clue if that's in-house training or being sent away on a three month intensive course, but it is indeed true they are putting in some effort teaching Iorghe about software development.
Basically I want to see a certain set of statements from a plan file (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=NeoContent&file=index&pageID=56) achieved. If Reakktor employ an experienced developer who has a proven track record of good coding in the computer game industry, even if only for 6 months (let's face it, experience doesn't come cheaply) then we could be striding towards turning Neocron into a fantastic game. I really get ticked off during a conversation when either myself or a friend come back and say 'crashed' or 'synced', the former being the most common, syncing out isn't too bad these days.
I fully appreciate that it's not just one thing causing crashes, it's lots of little things. Put an experienced developer into the team as a bugbuster and you'll be amazed what a fresh perspective does for the project !
Take care,
ReefSmoker
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