View Full Version : Tanks... NOW the weakest link??
Don't get me wrong here.. I believe its down to the players skill to determin the outcome of most fights... but with PE and Spys now having Stealth and APUs crazy damage and PPU's incredible invincibility I feel that tanks have become sumwhat redundant.
My view on what a tank should actually be....
A high defence, bulky, slow, power house.
My issues with current facts...
1)Tanks should not be able to run fast... even with PA or Cannons in their bags.. Its the whole I wanna be uber syndrone.. play your part in my opinion, wait before u scream at me, read the next point.
2)tanks should do atleast double the damage they do at current. They should be the MAIN reason that the enemy doenst want to just rush you in an unplanned attack.
Hell wouldnt it be great if you had skilled snipers sniping off the tanks lookouts then PEs trying to confuse/split up the opposing PEs whilst Spys stealth in and take out key enemy strong points. Then when the tanks left without backup you all rush in and waste him.
I just feel that in big OP battles we all seem to be doing similar things (bar PPUs) would be great if we were forced to be a bit more strategic.
i agree 5 stars, make this a sticky
great words bro.............. i mean man i dont know
edit **** i agree apart from being slow as there trained fighter units in all areas of fighting including being able to run fast. thats why they run slow with there gun out
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 01:26
Lets put this up a bit;
Tanks aren't slow.
They're not bulky.
Their aiming is just as good as the Liberator with CS (actually better).
They have the second best defence out of any agressive character in the game and 5-10x the damage output of the class with first.
..................o_O
Sigh.
Queue the get some skills comments...
CS already does a lot of damage. Maybe tanks just need more gun options...
Tank is very fucking powerful when they get a little old shelter. That's the only thing keeping the PEs any higher in defense...they want you to work together...
Tanks SHOULD be much slower, AoE cannons should do a lot more damage and CS a little more (worse aiming on cannons, better on... oh pistols). Defense shouldnt go higher. IMHO
I'm not sure about tanks running slower...maybe a little bit slower but not by much.....and yes, tanks should deal greater damage, maybe not as great as the apu can deal but not much less and should take one hell of a killing to kill.....the way i see it at the moment....PE's are the tank....tanks are the pe, pe's deal more damage for the RoF _over_ taken damage. This should be the complete opposite....the way the game is right now, the only class i fear is the ppu when in actual fact, it should be the apu/ppu combo OR solo tank....PE's are not a feared class because only a minority of the PE's can make one work properly and hats of to them. ;)
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Lets put this up a bit;
Tanks aren't slow.
They're not bulky.
Their aiming is just as good as the Liberator with CS (actually better).
They have the second best defence out of any agressive character in the game and 5-10x the damage output of the class with first.
..................o_O
Sigh.
Queue the get some skills comments...
dont understand where ya coming from mate? You agreeing or disagreeing with me?
Im saying tanks shouldnt run fast and that they should be bulky
Im suggesting to give them their own edge they should do silly damage and retain their defence
Hell they should be the slowest player in the game in my opinion, think real life. If all military pawns could be highest damage dealing and highest defence and fastest moving then why would you need any other fighting force?
I ask you again as I don;t get your reply are you agreeing or disagreeing with me mate?
the tanks in this game should be slower than other classes with the gun out and should be fast without (so thats ok as it is)
they are bulky with the PA on as it doubles the taget box
u cant compair there damage to a PPU monk lol.
anyway hes point is tanks are crap at the mement as u may have noticed not many show up for pvp as no one fears em. u fight a PE or Spy then they can stealth and run. u figth a tank and hes gonna die (this is in big battles basically).
tanks should do most damage in the game as that is the point in them.
APU mons should do seconds and there anti spells should cast fast like normal spells as they take the piss at the monet.
and aiming may be cmpairable to a Lib if u are a Pure HC and weapon lore tank but not all are.
my tanks cs does about double the damage of my PE's RoG with is dumb it should do a lot more concidering how much les range and accuracy it has
Originally posted by Drake6k
CS already does a lot of damage. Maybe tanks just need more gun options...
Tank is very fucking powerful when they get a little old shelter. That's the only thing keeping the PEs any higher in defense...they want you to work together...
Tanks SHOULD be much slower, AoE cannons should do a lot more damage and CS a little more (worse aiming on cannons, better on... oh pistols). Defense shouldnt go higher. IMHO
Ya catching my drift, I totally agree, Tanks defence should stay the same, running speed slowed and attack power increased and yes AOE should be the tanks main fortitude. thx for response ;)
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 01:38
Well I'm basically saying that it's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.
What you're suggesting isn't bad for balance, however, considering the aiming, locking, and inability to dodge in this game, unless something was done about CURSED SOUL ACCURACY.
I would never support the weapon being given more offencive power than it has ever.
It hits far too much, far too controllably for a cannon, period, let alone one at close range in PE Style Pistol Combat.
If something was done about cursed soul aiming, I would consider the defence difference between Tanks and PEs being reduced, however;
Currently lines like Alig's about Damage Over Time in combat compared to damage taken being better for PEs than tanks, is bullshit.
It's shown in Lupus' tests.
Djingo has(had) that kind of CS accuracy, Slutsumi has(had) it, it's impossible to beat (nearly) with a pistol PE >> Any Pistol PE Weaponry.
....except luck.
When you combine that with tank mastered resists....
Heh, it seems what you're suggesting would be more of a nerf, considering something would have to be done about CS Accuracy if it's damage was upped.
Tank AoE has needed serious boostage for a long time, I've said it repeatedly.
APU Range needs to be downed.
At which time APU = Tank at op wars.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Lets put this up a bit;
Tanks aren't slow.
They're not bulky.
Their aiming is just as good as the Liberator with CS (actually better).
They have the second best defence out of any agressive character in the game and 5-10x the damage output of the class with first.
..................o_O
Sigh.
Queue the get some skills comments...
A tank is slow while pvp'ing.
A tank is bulky with PA on.
I would normally disagree with you on this but i have a pistol pe on test server and can say, Ja liberator aiming does loose the lock quicker than the cs but come to think of this, what class is the liberator and what extra requirement does the cs need? :p T-C....CS lock against Judge/Ray of last hope/Beam of hell/Blacksun is terrible.....well....probably not terrible but not as good.
Compare lock on liberator against the gatlin cannon...the liberator comes out on top.
Originally posted by alig
I'm not sure about tanks running slower...maybe a little bit slower but not by much.....and yes, tanks should deal greater damage, maybe not as great as the apu can deal but not much less and should take one hell of a killing to kill.....the way i see it at the moment....PE's are the tank....tanks are the pe, pe's deal more damage for the RoF _over_ taken damage. This should be the complete opposite....the way the game is right now, the only class i fear is the ppu when in actual fact, it should be the apu/ppu combo OR solo tank....PE's are not a feared class because only a minority of the PE's can make one work properly and hats of to them. ;)
Isnt it all a mess, thx for the reply.
PEs are dam easy to lvl compared to other classes IMHO, and when used right (not an easy task) thay can be a most deadly solo class. This however should be where it stops, in big battles they should then not be as strong becoz they dont have a 'maxed 100' stat.
Hell make tanks unable to be buffed when using PA suits, I dunno, I just feal that they should have a unique role and my original post is still my best idea to create it.
tanks can do almost as much damage as apu already....so if u gave them much more damage then there would be very little incentive to have APU's in the game at all
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 01:43
Originally posted by alig
A tank is slow while pvp'ing.
Overspeccing = teh win.
Even you know that, your tank is almost as fast as my PE when you have your cannon drawn. (Almost = 10% slower?).
A tank is bulky with PA on.
Actually, while the size of the "target box" is larger, the size of the hitbox is the same.
It LOOKS bigger, whilst the actual amount of the tank which you can hit, is the same (try to aim at a tank when he has a spell out, you can get half way into his arm before the target box comes up with a lock o_O)
I would normally disagree with you on this but i have a pistol pe on test server and can say, Ja liberator aiming does loose the lock quicker than the cs but come to think of this, what class is the liberator and what extra requirement does the cs need? :p T-C....CS lock against Judge/Ray of last hope/Beam of hell/Blacksun is terrible.....well....probably not terrible but not as good.
Compare lock on liberator against the gatlin cannon...the liberator comes out on top.
Not a valid argument, Tanks don't sacrifice anything when speccing TC, PEs do.
Judge/BS/RoLH/Etc = the aiming pistols should have.
Edit;
Originally posted by Ultima
PEs are dam easy to lvl compared to other classes IMHO, and when used right (not an easy task) thay can be a most deadly solo class. This however should be where it stops, in big battles they should then not be as strong becoz they dont have a 'maxed 100' stat.
Heh, because something is easier to level it should be better?
LOL Someone reinstate Hybrids Please.
Originally posted by Ultima
Hell make tanks unable to be buffed when using PA suits, I dunno, I just feal that they should have a unique role and my original post is still my best idea to create it.
I wanted balanced tanks, not dead tanks....
bro i dunno why but i cant stand that picture of u lol. summin about it anoys me. jsut put the dolphine part of it in there instead
thats aimed at ultimus btw.
delta u ahve to agree summin has to be done tho as tank are pretty crap at the mo. i always use my PE rather than my tank in PvP as i feel my tank is pretty useless.
and to other dude who i cant remember name if u uped tanks damage u should also make the anti spells cast fsat and maybe add more APU spells inthat style and then there would indeed be a great need for APU monks.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Well I'm basically saying that it's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.
What you're suggesting isn't bad for balance, however, considering the aiming, locking, and inability to dodge in this game, unless something was done about CURSED SOUL ACCURACY.
I would never support the weapon being given more offencive power than it has ever.
It hits far too much, far too controllably for a cannon, period, let alone one at close range in PE Style Pistol Combat.
If something was done about cursed soul aiming, I would consider the defence difference between Tanks and PEs being reduced, however;
Currently lines like Alig's about Damage Over Time in combat compared to damage taken being better for PEs than tanks, is bullshit.
It's shown in Lupus' tests.
Djingo has(had) that kind of CS accuracy, Slutsumi has(had) it, it's impossible to beat (nearly) with a pistol PE >> Any Pistol PE Weaponry.
....except luck.
When you combine that with tank mastered resists....
Heh, it seems what you're suggesting would be more of a nerf, considering something would have to be done about CS Accuracy if it's damage was upped.
Tank AoE has needed serious boostage for a long time, I've said it repeatedly.
APU Range needs to be downed.
At which time APU = Tank at op wars.
Ok im understanding u alot more this time (im not always great at understand ing ppl lol)
My main point is to seriously slow tanks down, if this was done then tanks couldnt get into dodge fights ono on one. This ,I think, what you are mentioning with the CS accuracy.
If a tank is forced to be almost a stationary powerhouse in big battles then the CS would be alot less usable and AOE cannons more useful. Now boost the AOE power and may be Area of Effect damage (bigger explosions) and you have almost a brand knew class and a whole knew edge for Tanks.
I can not see how a tank should be able to ballet dance round a spy with a CS! That is my main point, make tanks move like (REAL LIFE) tanks but also give them damage capabilities like (REAL LIFE) tanks.
Do my points seem any more sane now mate?
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 01:48
Read my edit, also, turret combat is hated by a lot of people, unfortunatly, the cannon runspeed nerf which was put implace to balance tanks, doesn't do it very well.
Tanks sway between underpowered and overpowered when you take into account who is using it, and what their configuration is, and what class they're fighting ~ same as every class.....
Originally posted by joran420
tanks can do almost as much damage as apu already....so if u gave them much more damage then there would be very little incentive to have APU's in the game at all
I strongly disagree..
If you read my pros and cons idea then you will understand that my idea is that the tank is an almost stationary powerhouse, APUs when spec'd correctly can attack on the move, can attack without aiming and dont have to reload. They are a whole different class.
What I am trying to suggest is a away of creating a new role for the tank without giving up the APUs edge, I believe all classes should have an available edge.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Overspeccing = teh win.
Even you know that, your tank is almost as fast as my PE when you have your cannon drawn. (Almost = 10% slower?).
Actually, while the size of the "target box" is larger, the size of the hitbox is the same.
It LOOKS bigger, whilst the actual amount of the tank which you can hit, is the same (try to aim at a tank when he has a spell out, you can get half way into his arm before the target box comes up with a lock o_O)
Not a valid argument, Tanks don't sacrifice anything when speccing TC, PEs do.
Judge/BS/RoLH/Etc = the aiming pistols should have.
We sacrifice agility :rolleyes: No, seriously now, that is the most vaild argument i have, u cant fault it.....your comparing low tech over high tech (low tech being years & years old) (high tech being futuristic thus having a complete overhauled aiming system :p).
Do u pvp much on your tank? i dont think you do but you should compare gatlin cannon aiming over cursed soul aiming, maybe u could have the same opinion as you do liberator----judge/rolh/boh/BS aiming.
they should not allow overcapping to run faster wth cannon out that wold sort that out. then up the damage and then for crhists sake put the malee Damage % to a similar style to what monk spells are like. if y have to get right in close then make sure it means u do better damage the other things
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Lets put this up a bit;
Tanks aren't slow.
They're not bulky.
Their aiming is just as good as the Liberator with CS (actually better).
They have the second best defence out of any agressive character in the game and 5-10x the damage output of the class with first.
Amen!
Edit:
Originally posted by alig
Do u pvp much on your tank? i dont think you do but you should compare gatlin cannon aiming over cursed soul aiming, maybe u could have the same opinion as you do liberator----judge/rolh/boh/BS aiming.
So wheres a pistols Pes advantage? Higher runspeed? Nah, its so small, that just doesnt count. Aiming? Nah, its so fucking small, that just doesnt count. o_O o_O
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 01:55
Originally posted by alig
Do u pvp much on your tank? i dont think you do but you should compare gatlin cannon aiming over cursed soul aiming, maybe u could have the same opinion as you do liberator----judge/rolh/boh/BS aiming.
I compare end game pvp weapons for the classes relevant.
Not non-rare TL 7x or 8x (depends on version) weaponry, to rare, tl 91 weaponry.
...Except for the fact that ...even in all it's shiteness, ryker napalm is better than judge ...and blacksun is better than liberator....etc.........................sad.
Originally posted by Thundra
they should not allow overcapping to run faster with cannon out that wold sort that out. then up the damage and then for crhists sake put the malee Damage % to a similar style to what monk spells are like. if y have to get right in close then make sure it means u do better damage the other things
No offence.....do you not feel the tank class is already based around one gun/one setup? I mean we all aim for the CS.....we all aim for running fast.....get it!
If we all ran at the same speed...all used the cursed soul, do you not think it would be even more pointless having a tank?
Ultima...plz dont base ideas on real life, its useless....real life would mean one shot death of anything and there would'nt be bolts of thunder coming down onto your head either :p
I'm up for making tanks deal more damage but making them a slow moving turret o_O ....No way, i didnt spend 6 months capping constitution on my tank, getting a 4 slot CS (i got it first time btw:lol: :p ) to be made into a turret...it just won't float my boat and the many more tanks out there imo.
i dont think we should be a turret i think maybe not aloing over cappin of run speed tho might work if u up the damage output.
and yes everyone aims for a CS as its the only non AOE rare which is stupid. they need way more and even need a single shot non AoE gun. Maybe summin that fires a type of cannon ball thing that dishes laods of force damage
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Read my edit, also, turret combat is hated by a lot of people, unfortunatly, the cannon runspeed nerf which was put implace to balance tanks, doesn't do it very well.
Tanks sway between underpowered and overpowered when you take into account who is using it, and what their configuration is, and what class they're fighting ~ same as every class.....
not having ago here mate just enjoying a bit of a debate.
My original post was to suggest to create an edge for the tank class, at the moment I feel they do good damge but need to rely on a PPU to secure their health in big battles.
My problem with this is that Tank/PE and spy class are all doing the same in battle, running around shooting like hell at each other, I would like to see some strategy to the battles, thats all.
Theres nothing like creating a char to be a sniper, managing to get hold of your 'Silent Hunter' and then not being able to use it coz every1 has just gone in for a free for all.
Theres nothing like creating a Stealth/Hacker only to find that stealth is only good for running away (bah at that)
Theres nothing like creating a tank with a seriously high HC power source only to find that the other team is so well PPU'd up that you just watching your Gigantic health pool slowly go down and down and down.
I would like to see each class having to perform different roles almost, hell we can all fight but there are different ways of fighting not to mention smart ways in place of just shear brute suicide forces.
Tanks IMHO = powerhouses
Tanks should need coverage from other classes and should be slow/ almost stationary when in battle and therefore very defensive too
Tanks should do silly damage with AOE over long distances even if they are not that accurate
I agree the CS is really a waste of time and if my changes took effect (as if) then they would be fairly useless in PvP, but then what other classes have great AOE weapons (other than APUs) so why not make more of them
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I compare end game pvp weapons for the classes relevant.
Not non-rare TL 7x or 8x (depends on version) weaponry, to rare, tl 91 weaponry.
...Except for the fact that ...even in all it's shiteness, ryker napalm is better than judge ...and blacksun is better than liberator....etc.........................sad.
QD...ive got a pistol spy and pistol pe on test server, i know what every gun in the game is like, and i know that a cannon has worse aiming over pistols......EVEN the lock
Stop comparing apples to oranges....high tech is not low tech, vice versa......compare the CS to a judge/rolh, not a libby. The pistols come out on top if u compare them to the same type of weapon, i already know this because i have all classes
Alright :
CS = judge = first love
Gatlin = liberator = pain easer
Malediction = executioner = redeemer
Doom beamer = ray of last hope = ray of god
Slasher = Disruptor
Im sure you get the point...
The gatlins have worst aiming _and_ lock over the rifle's/pistol's of the same type.
The rifle's have the worser aiming over the pistol's of the same type.
Dont compare a CS to a liberator
Compare the CS to the judge and you will find out, the judge has longer, better, more accuracy over the CS.
The exact same as the liberator does the gatlin/pain easer and the same the pain easer does the gatlin.
GET SOME SKILLS QD!
tanks need to be made better .
2 late atm to say why
Originally posted by alig
No offence.....do you not feel the tank class is already based around one gun/one setup? I mean we all aim for the CS.....we all aim for running fast.....get it!
If we all ran at the same speed...all used the cursed soul, do you not think it would be even more pointless having a tank?
Ultima...plz dont base ideas on real life, its useless....real life would mean one shot death of anything and there would'nt be bolts of thunder coming down onto your head either :p
I'm up for making tanks deal more damage but making them a slow moving turret o_O ....No way, i didnt spend 6 months capping constitution on my tank, getting a 4 slot CS (i got it first time btw:lol: :p ) to be made into a turret...it just won't float my boat and the many more tanks out there imo.
A) I agree with the RL bit, but we do have to put certain things into persective or APUs would be able to fly while talking out of their backside
B) Im suggesting that yes you cant move but that you will need 6 or 7 of the enemy on ya to deck ya, hell you seen the PA, you should have the armour of the troop carrier just from that alone and then ya resists added on top.
C) I guess i am preaching the tank/turret idea a bit, but i have a CS PA3 tank near cap and I never use it coz i feel its not got the edge needed to enjoy the game/compared to my alts.
And im talking serious amounts of damage, I mean long distant big time explosions and NO I dont think they should have great aim. Be really good fun i think.
IronMonkey
02-10-03, 02:16
Man its so simple.
A sick apu is sick
A sick PE is sicko
A sick tank is truly sick.
The classes are somewhat balanced yes.
But they will never be balanced because someone with class A will always own someone with class B which will lead to person B saying class A is more powerful then class B and needs to be nerfed. You never see them posting about how person B owned person C playing class A.
this community will cry nerf until you are nerfed and than you will quit. Than person D will coem ina nd cry nerf until he is also nerfed and quit.
When will you people learn.
I agree that AoE weapons should deal fucking MASSES and im talking lots of damage if one hits u dead on, imagine a 150mm rocket hit u in the chest..... (im not even talking real life here either) it does at least half the damage a cs does to your chest...that imo is wrongo_O
You know exactly what weapon is going to appear from the tanks right pocket everytime! CS.......lets hope this rare shotgun is actually kind of half decent (Or is it a rifle?:confused:)
Roc-a-fella
02-10-03, 02:19
heres what make classes good
imps' and skil setup, run speed, spell slots
omg the secret is out!!!!!11111
Originally posted by Roc-a-fella
heres what make classes good
imps' and skil setup, run speed, spell slots
omg the secret is out!!!!!11111
YEEEEAHHHH!!!!! _NO_
They help but its called skill....Your own skill
I've run into pepper park 1 and killed 3 of the same rank people as me on my own, unbuffed on my tank....it was one tank, one apu and one melee tank
Thats 2 marines on 1....a rare melee on 1.....a cs on 1 and a hl on 1........ explain your theory over that?
edit/ Another reason i dont agree is because ive killed herc tanks one on one and i dont have a herc :p
Originally posted by IronMonkey
Man its so simple.
A sick apu is sick
A sick PE is sicko
A sick tank is truly sick.
The classes are somewhat balanced yes.
But they will never be balanced because someone with class A will always own someone with class B which will lead to person B saying class A is more powerful then class B and needs to be nerfed. You never see them posting about how person B owned person C playing class A.
this community will cry nerf until you are nerfed and than you will quit. Than person D will coem ina nd cry nerf until he is also nerfed and quit.
When will you people learn.
my god I had no idea it was all this simple,.. seriously I can handle people flaming the post maturely but you 'sound broken recordish' people.
My main char is NOT a tank, I dont enjoy playing a tank and prolly wouldn't enjoy it if my ideas were implemented!
Plus im not class A or B or C, im class CSG on Saturn and Im only asking that we review the whole strategy of battles senario and certainly NOT asking to nerf anyone!
Please go and boost your post count properly, I would put money on the fact that you didnt read the whole post, you, and others like you, are the ones that end posts being 'closed' and ideas not being debated into possible implementable features.
Originally posted by alig
YEEEEAHHHH!!!!! _NO_
They help but its called skill....Your own skill
I've run into pepper park 1 and killed 3 of the same rank people as me on my own, unbuffed on my tank....it was one tank, one apu and one melee tank
Thats 2 marines on 1....a rare melee on 1.....a cs on 1 and a hl on 1........ explain your theory over that?
I second that..
a one on one bad player will come down to imps and stats
a one on one good skillful player may come down to imps and stats
But mostly its down to skill, aside from your PCs performance or statbility and thats your own fault.
This game is one of the few MMORPG that really is dependant on the players PvP skill (bah to exploiters on that note aswell)
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 02:31
Originally posted by Ste-X
GET SOME SKILLS QD!
I'd tell you to get an education first, but your job is harder.
Originally posted by alig
QD...ive got a pistol spy and pistol pe on test server, i know what every gun in the game is like, and i know that a cannon has worse aiming over pistols......EVEN the lock
Untrue.
Talk to Xian.
Stop comparing apples to oranges....high tech is not low tech,
Okay, you still didn't see the comment about how it's harder for a PE to spec TC than it is for a tank.
Tanks want everything on a damned plate.
Mostly because there isn't many tanks with skills to compensate since the other classes caught up through hardwork and study.
Meanwhile, lazy ass tanks who;
Refuse to drug.
Refuse to tweak.
Refuse to study resists properly.
You yourself have admitted guilty to all three.
Don't you dare come near me with that crap.
vice versa......compare the CS to a judge
Sure lets do that;
CS - Most powerful rare in the game for damage over time that excludes rare barrels.
Judge - ..........Pathetic weapon, all round useless unless you use a pathetic setup as a PE to reach it. (Or drugs, how many tanks you see on drugs?).
Full of it.
rolh,
Nope, that's a raygun, compare it to DoomBeamer Please.
not a libby.
Sure can't compare Lib to a Tank weapon then, since there is, and should not be, an equivilent weapon.
The pistols come out on top if u compare them to the same type of weapon, i already know this because i have all classes
And you are honestly naive enough to think I haven't done this 50x over?
Jesus. Talk about patronising.
Alright :
CS = judge = first love
Okay, explain the logic here then please.
CS is the most powerful rare in the game over time for damage and has the best reticle retension in the game as well.
Combine this with the fact that it fits NATURALLY into a Tank configuration, and there is no need to sacrifice ANYTHING to use it comfortably.
Judge ~ Lower TL Weapon than the CS, does massively less damage considering the 5 TL difference, you would probably say that's fair right? ;)
Well, okay, Judge aiming is not that bad I would like the weapon if it did decent damage and was DEX 99.
Heh, TL matters in damage right? otherwise Judge would be as good for a PE as CS is for Tanks.
Then why is the TL 114 First Love Massively...MASSIVELY Underpowered compared to CS?
That's a bad well you be pumpin dude.
This is why your comparisons are flawed, even if you can't see it..
Gatlin = liberator = pain easer
PE is the most powerful out of the group.
Lib aiming is bugged.
Gatlins have longer range, bigger clips, easier reachable caps for their class and the TSG is non-drop PURE 120.
More tank spoiltness.
Malediction = executioner = redeemer
Malediction is okay, it's AoE is small but packs a punch and is fairly accurate.
Exe is one of the worst pistol rares in the game.
Redeemer is fairly tasty, but still, only as a sniper weapon.
Doom beamer = ray of last hope = ray of god
Only case Tanks come worse off....
RoLH > Doom Beamer < RoG > RoLH.
Dex, Damage, RoF, and Accuracy all accounted for.
Slasher = Disruptor
Slasher is pathetic.
Disruptor is pretty cool, more or less what the First Love should have been.
Im sure you get the point...
I don't see where you're coming from.
The gatlins have worst aiming _and_ lock over the rifle's/pistol's of the same type.
Wrong, their aiming is (very slightly, due to range, but they hit the same aiming cap) better than uzi/assault rifle, however their lock, is, equally, just slightly worse.
The rifle's have the worser aiming over the pistol's of the same type.
As it should be.
Dont compare a CS to a liberator
Why not? People compare HAB to HP.
CS and Lib are natural comparatives because they are the high end weapon of choice due to statistics.
Liberator the weaker of the two for a few reasons, mostly balanced, aside from the aiming issues (...actually, if all the aiming issues were resolved CS damage would require boostage and Lib damage would require nerfage).
Compare the CS to the judge and you will find out, the judge has longer, better, more accuracy over the CS.
................................................You're kiddin me right?
You do KNOW I was a Judge PE exclusively before the AGL Nerf?
Apart from the fact that you hadn't even been ingame at that point in time.
The exact same as the liberator does the gatlin/pain easer and the same the pain easer does the gatlin.
As reasoned above, you're wrong.
Originally posted by Thundra
tanks should do most damage in the game as that is the point in them.
Actually according to the storyline tanks aren't all that great. They only won the war due to the fact they could be mass produced in 'tanks' to replace all the bodies that ganked by ubar spies/monkeys.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Lets put this up a bit;
Tanks aren't slow.
They're not bulky.
Their aiming is just as good as the Liberator with CS (actually better).
They have the second best defence out of any agressive character in the game and 5-10x the damage output of the class with first.
..................o_O
Sigh.
Queue the get some skills comments...
AS per usual *well sorta* you took the words right out my my mouth, but, to pick on a point, second best defense of any aggresive class *my edit here* Second to Pe's.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
But yeah i agree with you.
Also............FACT, Speedgun outdamages, outranges and outfires a libby, ya can even snipe with the babys, BUT and its a BIG BUT should it be able to? out range yeah, but out-fire and out-damage? libby is after all a rare?
Qd im trying to be FUCKING reasonable for once :mad: stfu about CS over lib, there not the same fucking gun, stop calling me naive, just cuz ur shit says december 2002 doesnt mean u have anymore/better knowledge over the game i have does it?
pistols > rifles/cannons for aiming
rifles > pistols/cannons for range
cannons > pistols/rifles for damage
why should a judge have better aiming/damage than a cs?
infact, u know wot, i dont even give a fuck qd cuz ur too argumentive and never give up, hence the 6000 post count
oh actually about the hard to spec t-c with pe's....why does my T-C pistol pe as good as cap every pistol he can use? and also.....wot? do u want tanks to have less dex, thus making it harder for us to spec lots of agl and have high enuf t-c than us having less dex, More psi ( = shelters = every class fucked) or less dex, More int making us able to cap cs ( = tanks 'ard).....is that it? well even u know every class has 500 lvl's through 5 skills........so YEAH give tanks less dex, MORE psi....i want shelters, u wouldnt see me or just about any tank sniff on the thought of running slower and having shelters
Originally posted by alig
Qd im trying to be FUCKING reasonable for once :mad: stfu about CS over lib, there not the same fucking gun, stop calling me naive, just cuz ur shit says december 2002 doesnt mean u have anymore/better knowledge over the game i have does it?
pistols > rifles/cannons for aiming
rifles > pistols/cannons for range
cannons > pistols/rifles for damage
why should a judge have better aiming/damage than a cs?
infact, u know wot, i dont even give a fuck qd cuz ur too argumentive and never give up, hence the 6000 post count
oh actually about the hard to spec t-c with pe's....why does my T-C pistol pe as good as cap every pistol he can use? and also.....wot? do u want tanks to have less dex, thus making it harder for us to spec lots of agl and have high enuf t-c than us having less dex, More psi ( = shelters = every class fucked) or less dex, More int making us able to cap cs ( = tanks 'ard).....is that it? well even u know every class has 500 lvl's through 5 skills........so YEAH give tanks less dex, MORE psi....i want shelters, u wouldnt see me or just about any tank sniff on the thought of running slower and having shelters
Wow man............................8| im a shut up too :lol:
APUs when spec'd correctly can attack on the move, can attack without aiming and dont have to reload
umm you dont have to reload bullets but u have to reload your psi pool
you still have to aim...even with a monk..granted you dont have a recticle but your uber low rate of fire makes up for it(its a little easier than aiming with a tank its still a bitch trying to get a lock on someone alot of the time
and you can only full on runcast if u either way overspecced or have a PPU casting psi attack 3 on you
I think your ideas would seriously unbalance the tank class and make playing a monk pretty worthless a tanks defence is 10 times that of a monk already so now they would do more damage and be way stronger...just dont see any role for an APU if your changes were to take place
Originally posted by joran420
umm you dont have to reload bullets but u have to reload your psi pool
you still have to aim...even with a monk..granted you dont have a recticle but your uber low rate of fire makes up for it(its a little easier than aiming with a tank its still a bitch trying to get a lock on someone alot of the time
and you can only full on runcast if u either way overspecced or have a PPU casting psi attack 3 on you
I think your ideas would seriously unbalance the tank class and make playing a monk pretty worthless a tanks defence is 10 times that of a monk already so now they would do more damage and be way stronger...just dont see any role for an APU if your changes were to take place
Yeah, playing my apu again, and tbh, ive never eaten so many boosters so fast in my entire life. but hey, gotta have more than one downside :lol: .
Oh..........and not really overspeccing to runcast, more like caping damage (need what 450% to runcast? and 636% is cap? or some shit like that) so no need to overspec, your just being effective.
DarkPhoenix
02-10-03, 02:58
Originally posted by joran420
your uber low rate of fire
Im sorry..."uber low rate of fire"? :lol: :lol:
Dunno bout your monk but my monks RoF is just fine.
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 03:00
Originally posted by alig
Qd im trying to be FUCKING reasonable for once :mad: stfu about CS over lib, there not the same fucking gun, stop calling me naive, just cuz ur shit says december 2002 doesnt mean u have anymore/better knowledge over the game i have does it?
Naive isn't insulting.
If I was to insult you, I'd call you an idiot, Naive means you haven't learnt yet.. you're good... you have a lot of potential, your tank is pretty well tricked out and you have the FPS skill to take advantage of it, however, you do not and will not ever have more knowledge of this game than me until I leave.
It's just the way I play these games, I play'em to know every frickin inch of'em, even tactics I refuse to use (out of lameness...most noticably TL3 Heal..I try to avoid Stealthing unless I absolutely have to/am outnumbered)..
pistols > rifles/cannons for aiming
For INITIAL AIMING YES.
However they do not retain their lock in the slightest, making their aiming several times worse over all.
A skilled CS User can keep nearly 100% accuracy on their CS, I know, Djingo has done it to me.
This is why your point is flawed, it's not to say that your point is /wrong/ it's /right/ it's just not COMPLETELY right.
rifles > pistols/cannons for range
True.
cannons > pistols/rifles for damage
True, exception rayguns (AoE needs boostage comment insert here please).
why should a judge have better aiming/damage than a cs?
........o_O
infact, u know wot, i dont even give a fuck qd cuz ur too argumentive and never give up,
Tends to be because I know I'm right.
hence the 6000 post count
Heh :)
I was a newbie once too, if you go back over the first thousand or so of my posts I made a lot of mistakes and I made wrong assumptions at times.
I still do it now, though, less so about things I've double checked several billion times.
...So relax... so many people take shots at me if I didn't know my shit I would be burried in it by now... I have to know, it's actually annoying....heh
oh actually about the hard to spec t-c with pe's....why does my T-C pistol pe as good as cap every pistol he can use?Heh, what's his defence like? no where near QDs I would suspect.
Do you take 38 dmg from one type of CS and 44 from the other?
(Full head burst, full connect...though, I was told the formula's changed and haven't checked this patch, I was also told the formula's haven't changed by a more reliable source so haven't checked..lol...),
and also.....wot? do u want tanks to have less dex, thus making it harder for us to spec lots of agl and have high enuf t-c Naw, you can overspec... I don't actually mind tanks being somewhat fast so long as they can't aim... (the faster the tank the worse their aiming for some odd reason).
than us having less dex, More psi ( = shelters = every class fucked) or less dex, More int making us able to cap cs ( = tanks 'ard).....is that it?
I wouldn't object to tanks being allowed to wear light int belts/light deflector belts.
well even u know every class has 500 lvl's through 5 skills........so
YEAH give tanks less dex, MORE psi....i want shelters, u wouldnt see me or just about any tank sniff on the thought of running slower and having shelters
If tanks were to acquire the ability to use shelter the runspeed nerf would actually have to be hardcapped for a case of balance, not, for just simply less dex.
moreso ~ Tanks shouldn't be allowed to break the 76% mark without a ppu or pe or drugged spy backing them.
However, it should be made easier to have all of these.
Also, light INT belts would make PvM life slightly easier for tanks.
The INT to allow light INT belts would also allow tanks to effectively use Heal Sanctum for the first time.
I have no objection to this either.
Originally posted by Oath
Also............FACT, Speedgun outdamages, outranges and outfires a libby, ya can even snipe with the babys, BUT and its a BIG BUT should it be able to? out range yeah, but out-fire and out-damage? libby is after all a rare?
That was true until they boosted liberator ~ liberator is now more powerful providing it's target is sitting dead still because of the crappy aiming :p
Originally posted by DarkPhoenix
Im sorry..."uber low rate of fire"? :lol: :lol:
Dunno bout your monk but my monks RoF is just fine.
same here,
though only holy energy halo at mom :rolleyes: runcastable and firing at 105 casts/m and im nowhere near cap (well i am a bit) as for Hl..............ill cap that too :rolleyes: vut rof is easily cappable on most spells, without psi 3 i might add.
alright its not that slow RoF ...but still slower than almost any gun... and i get 565% on my HL but i cant runcast it at full tilt in a straight line...i can walk then run cast it...or i can strafe cast it but i cant run cast it in a straight line
[edit] Ive never actually played a tank only APU....but when im getting shot at seems like a pretty steady stream of bullets....with a slight break every once in a while to reload
[edit^2] oh and i can runcast shit like halo no prob...i was just referring to our rare spells
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 03:09
APUs Advantage is basically explosive amounts of damage over a short period of time.
Once their initial mana flurray is expended CS/TSG will slowly catch up on damage until they eventually overtake.
Your objective should be to have a dead tank by the time you use up two mana pools *unless they're sheltered*
Originally posted by joran420
alright its not that slow RoF ...but still slower than almost any gun... and i get 565% on my HL but i cant runcast it at full tilt in a straight line...i can walk then run cast it...or i can strafe cast it but i cant run cast it in a straight line
[edit] Ive never actually played a tank only APU....but when im getting shot at seems like a pretty steady stream of bullets....with a slight break every once in a while to reload
[edit^2] oh and i can runcast shit like halo no prob...i was just referring to our rare spells
hmm, if its a speedgun thats hitting you then..............its artifact and easily cappable both in rof aiming and dgm, and theyre pretty forkin 1337, shouldnt pvp with em though evil things for stamina.
As for your HL not runcasting..................i dunno, i cant use Hl yet lol.
/edit LOL Dont edit while im writing, its confusing. k sorry my fault, i thought you meant all spells. my bad.
ok :) so tanks can already outdamage "the big hitters" over the long run...and u guys want to give them more of a damage boost?
I know my RoF goes way down once i have to start popping boosters...but i didnt realize it was enough to give the tank the edge in pure damage output
Originally posted by joran420
umm you dont have to reload bullets but u have to reload your psi pool
you still have to aim...even with a monk..granted you dont have a recticle but your uber low rate of fire makes up for it(its a little easier than aiming with a tank its still a bitch trying to get a lock on someone alot of the time
and you can only full on runcast if u either way overspecced or have a PPU casting psi attack 3 on you
I think your ideas would seriously unbalance the tank class and make playing a monk pretty worthless a tanks defence is 10 times that of a monk already so now they would do more damage and be way stronger...just dont see any role for an APU if your changes were to take place
You blow my points up by rewording them even if you are being more gramatically correct even tho you know what I mean?
My point is Im proposing the tank to be an almost stationary powerhouse that has uber defence but still needs backup to hold its position on the battle field
I have no wish to change APU monks, they can run about freely with PPUs covering their asses while still doing serious damge or good damge on the run..
Happy? u understand now? Im trying to find a new edge for the tank and also not trying to knock down the other classes at the same time
but your proposed changes to tanks would negate the entire purpose of APU(which is to have the highes DPS out of any other class)...
tanks already have better damage per second in the long run..you want to give it to them in the short run too?
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 03:16
Originally posted by joran420
ok :) so tanks can already outdamage "the big hitters" over the long run...and u guys want to give them more of a damage boost?
I know my RoF goes way down once i have to start popping boosters...but i didnt realize it was enough to give the tank the edge in pure damage output
It isn't.
An effective way to stop this mana drain being so devistating is to pop a booster every third time you cast HL (or so).
edit;
btw, at your level A high slot E-Beam would be better.
yeah ive heard that about e beam...just havent gotten a good enough copy to be worth it yet
I know its easy to go OFF topic but plz read what the thread is about and not what the last person said.. And QD i have no bone to pick with you but them 'long quote 101 ppl' posts must bored the pants off any humanly sane person.
My point again - Tanks have NO real edge atm apart from the CS which is the same as ans PE / SPY or Monk high damage close combat attack.
It would be nice to give tanks a Real Role, something unique. Maybe my original point is rubbish but then maybe you could suggest an alternative instead of all bringing up irrelevent pistol/riffle/cannon arguements.
Any1 feel the going round in circles syndrone?
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 03:19
Your ability to get 76% resistance to all attacks should be made easier (xray bones).
Your AoE should be massively increased.
..uhm, maybe runspeed nerf should be addressed (in a capward direction) .............maybe.....
edit;
forgot
APU Beam spell range should be decreased, some.
Not that great an amount, but some.
Originally posted by joran420
but your proposed changes to tanks would negate the entire purpose of APU(which is to have the highes DPS out of any other class)...
tanks already have better damage per second in the long run..you want to give it to them in the short run too?
Dude???? im almost saying scrap the CS and give tanks just the serious high damage AOE weapons with sum serious damage boost.
I repeat from earlier , How is it a Tank can do a ballet dance with a Heavy duty plasma cannon??
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Your ability to get 76% resistance to all attacks should be made easier (xray bones).
Your AoE should be massively increased.
..uhm, maybe runspeed nerf should be addressed (in a capward direction) .............maybe.....
OMFG u hit the nail smack bang walop on the head, except make the runcap thing a definite atleast
As much as I love my CS i would give it up so that my MS/Mal and DB where worth polishing. a tank should be no good at close combat , well not as good as it is currently.
oh well if tanks only have AOE weapons then yeah the AOE weapons should have better damage...but tanks overall i dont think need any increase in damage
Originally posted by Ultima
Dude???? im almost saying scrap the CS and give tanks just the serious high damage AOE weapons with sum serious damage boost.
I repeat from earlier , How is it a Tank can do a ballet dance with a Heavy duty plasma cannon??
to put it simply,
Fuck that, if we went way back and had no cannon speed nerf then fair enough, BUT, as it stands a tank has to put a great deal of his con points into athletics, and most of his dex into agility,
lowering the runcap (ergo makin em slower?) would free up points for resists, but who wants to play a turret?
I certainly dont, Apu get runcast, tanks get spandou ballet...............er..........:eek: 8| SHITTTTT.
/edit, how can a monk runcast when it takes so much concentration to use these spells? how can a PE run and fire his rifle / pistol to devestating effect and accuracy? how can a spy...............erm...............i lost that one..... how can a spy..............be valid in pvp? :lol: :lol: (jokes)
you dont play a tank as your main, so these changes (hypothetically) dont affect you, why do you even bring up tank nefing when its been asked and called for many times.
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 03:30
Originally posted by Oath
to put it simply,
Fuck that, if we went way back and had no cannon speed nerf then fair enough, BUT, as it stands a tank has to put a great deal of his con points into athletics, and most of his dex into agility,
lowering the runcap (ergo makin em slower?) would free up points for resists, but who wants to play a turret?
I certainly dont, Apu get runcast, tanks get spandou ballet...............er..........:eek: 8| SHITTTTT.
There is no cap on the cannon runspeed nerf at current, with the correct setup tanks can run with their cannons out at VERY VERY close to tech pistol pe speed with only one moderate sacrifice.
A Cap does not make you slower with your current configuration unless you are over that cap.
The cap would basically be to assure that no one could gain the kind of runspeed certain tanks have.
What Ultima basically wants to do, is give tanks a real, valuable role in op wars.
You've fought the synchs you've seen AoE Spam, that's what he wants Tanks to be capable of - But With Damage and real danger rather than "pfft..." QD just runs through AoE Spam and lib splats the camping aoe tanks(until he's para'd and beamed to death...).
...APUs just out range 'em.
Tank AoE is pathetic at best.
I, among others, want that changed.
If it removes some of this stupid "tank uber rwar CS smash hawr hawr pwn j00" attitude in the process. Hell God Damn Yes :p
Like I said;
Basically a runspeed cap would do something like "You go as fast as you did before up to....say 95/95 and no faster"
Though, I suspect what ultima wants is closer to 90/90 or 85/85.
I wouldn't suggest under 90/90 though.......... my tank would hate that...o_O
Originally posted by Oath
to put it simply,
Fuck that, if we went way back and had no cannon speed nerf then fair enough, BUT, as it stands a tank has to put a great deal of his con points into athletics, and most of his dex into agility,
lowering the runcap (ergo makin em slower?) would free up points for resists, but who wants to play a turret?
I certainly dont, Apu get runcast, tanks get spandou ballet...............er..........:eek: 8| SHITTTTT.
lol..
maybe all this should have been sorted before a year into the game :rolleyes:
But seriously if u dont want to be a turret then there are 3 other classes that can be personally speced to fit your desired role.
Tanks dont have the option to be a turret if they want
Monks can choose if they want to be PPU or APU
Tanks maybe should have to choose between being a turret or a melee class
Maybe... i dunno, all i know is that at the mo Tanks are IMHO in limbo, they need an edge, and an edge isnt sumink that makes YOU uber or NERF some1 else. It gives YOU a role to play that only people that are the same class can do too.
Tanks = fat PEs
^^at the moment in MY OPINION, suggest ways of giving them 'an edge'
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
There is no cap on the cannon runspeed nerf at current, with the correct setup tanks can run with their cannons out at VERY VERY close to tech pistol pe speed with only one moderate sacrifice.
A Cap does not make you slower with your current configuration unless you are over that cap.
The cap would basically be to assure that no one could gain the kind of runspeed certain tanks have.
What Ultima basically wants to do, is give tanks a real, valuable role in op wars.
You've fought the synchs you've seen AoE Spam, that's what he wants Tanks to be capable of - But With Damage and real danger rather than "pfft..." QD just runs through AoE Spam and lib splats the camping aoe tanks(until he's para'd and beamed to death...).
...APUs just out range 'em.
Tank AoE is pathetic at best.
I, among others, want that changed.
If it removes some of this stupid "tank uber rwar CS smash hawr hawr pwn j00" attitude in the process. Hell God Damn Yes :p
Like I said;
Basically a runspeed cap would do something like "You go as fast as you did before up to....say 95/95 and no faster"
Though, I suspect what ultima wants is closer to 90/90 or 85/85.
I wouldn't suggest under 90/90 though.......... my tank would hate that...o_O
Fair enough.
lol..
maybe all this should have been sorted before a year into the game
But seriously if u dont want to be a turret then there are 3 other classes that can be personally speced to fit your desired role.
Tanks dont have the option to be a turret if they want
Monks can choose if they want to be PPU or APU
Tanks maybe should have to choose between being a turret or a melee class
Maybe... i dunno, all i know is that at the mo Tanks are IMHO in limbo, they need an edge, and an edge isnt sumink that makes YOU uber or NERF some1 else. It gives YOU a role to play that only people that are the same class can do too.
Tanks = fat PEs
^^at the moment in MY OPINION, suggest ways of giving them 'an edge'
Fair enough.
Originally posted by Oath
to put it simply,
you dont play a tank as your main, so these changes (hypothetically) dont affect you, why do you even bring up tank nefing when its been asked and called for many times.
Becoz, as stated earlier, it would be nice to see some more battle strategy. And no im not talking about roling dice. Im talking about having a plan, set a couple of ya tanks up at the OPS entrance while ya Spys do some stealthing reconancence and ya PEs and PPUs back up the tank. If an attack force comes into sight the tank can fire sum big shit into them while some of the PEs and APUs move forward to head on the enemy.
I also would like to state that my tank was my original charater (pretty much capped with his PA3 and all rares) its just I have other alts I would rather play. This game isnt too hard to cap a character and im sure most of us Beta players have near capped players of most classes.
DarkPhoenix
02-10-03, 03:37
Originally posted by joran420
alright its not that slow RoF ...but still slower than almost any gun... and i get 565% on my HL but i cant runcast it at full tilt in a straight line...i can walk then run cast it...or i can strafe cast it but i cant run cast it in a straight line
[edit] Ive never actually played a tank only APU....but when im getting shot at seems like a pretty steady stream of bullets....with a slight break every once in a while to reload
[edit^2] oh and i can runcast shit like halo no prob...i was just referring to our rare spells
I used to be able to runcast my HL and Fire Apoc at full tilt. :rolleyes:
Ok I'll stop bugging you :p
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 03:40
PMs or new thread dudes :p
*runs off to hunt shiznit...*
DarkPhoenix
02-10-03, 03:43
Hehe QD last post with him.
Dunno, dont have em anymore, I lommed to ppu, but I had all INT points in psi and 150+ apu w/psi apu pa2.
Ok enuff.... *goes to look throguh thread to find anything to post about to get back on topic* :p
Originally posted by Ultima
Becoz, as stated earlier, it would be nice to see some more battle strategy. And no im not talking about roling dice. Im talking about having a plan, set a couple of ya tanks up at the OPS entrance while ya Spys do some stealthing reconancence and ya PEs and PPUs back up the tank. If an attack force comes into sight the tank can fire sum big shit into them while some of the PEs and APUs move forward to head on the enemy.
I also would like to state that my tank was my original charater (pretty much capped with his PA3 and all rares) its just I have other alts I would rather play. This game isnt too hard to cap a character and im sure most of us Beta players have near capped players of most classes.
Given you and qd already clarified your points, and *see page 4* i semi agree with you both not tottally though, but hey strategy would be cool. problem is you always onna have one person that fuxxorz it up for ya :rolleyes:
now that i get this thread, i wont post no more.
KEEP IT CLEAN OR YOUR ALL KOS!!! JOO HEAR!
your not looking at the runcast properly.
To be able to runcast at full tilt is a big thing and very valuable, its not easy with top spells
But it is all dependant on your damage % (from what I know-plz correct me if im wrong) If u can't run and cast but still have very high damage % on your spell, you can prolly run and cast - stop at sum point during casting- and end up casting while running again
Its tricky but once you figure out your capabilities you can pretty much mostly runcast, and lets not forget the game is not point to point, the character positions get updated every so many seconds (dependant on your machine specs/internet connection and settings) so even when sum1 has just stopped it may take your screen half a second to show that and by then they are moving again. (this is why you sumtimes see ppl run thru walls lol)
IronMonkey
02-10-03, 03:54
Originally posted by Ultima
my god I had no idea it was all this simple,.. seriously I can handle people flaming the post maturely but you 'sound broken recordish' people.
My main char is NOT a tank, I dont enjoy playing a tank and prolly wouldn't enjoy it if my ideas were implemented!
Plus im not class A or B or C, im class CSG on Saturn and Im only asking that we review the whole strategy of battles senario and certainly NOT asking to nerf anyone!
Please go and boost your post count properly, I would put money on the fact that you didnt read the whole post, you, and others like you, are the ones that end posts being 'closed' and ideas not being debated into possible implementable features.
Actually, I read your whole post, yes. As for broken recordish, i agree, your post does sound as such. You may say i am flaming you. Such is life, when we all don't agree. No your not askign outright for nerfing, your right. Your throwing a slider curveball in hopes of a home run. It's rather simple, i don't see how you can't understand it. Boost to nerf to boost to nerf. It is an unending cycle that will never end. Every class has the chance of killing every other class, dependant on skill and situation. The only class which is overpowered or seems as such is PPU. Only because they are all defense and zero offense. The people they buff are their weapons. As for saying I'm trying to boost my post count. I'm sure you could insult me in more creative ways than that my friend. Yes lets look at all the classes, lets find other ways to balance everything out. Lets change one thing that effects another thing and so forth. Balancing a mmo game is like a waterfall, change somthign slightly and everythign else comes pouring down. In order to have true balance everything must be modified at once. Not just the tank, not just the apu, not just the PE, not just the spy(well maybe they could be seriously boosted with little effect to the other classes, because spies currently have serious issues). You must change EVERYthing at the same time. Otherwise you have a waterfall effect. It is social economics 101. So no it isn't that 'simple', its rather difficult but actually seeing the problem with boost to nerf, is simple. Understanding evaulating and isolating the issues, are complicated. Doing it properlly requires a total overhaul of everything. What people truly seek is a CHANCE at winning. The problem that lies within this is you have to reduce the skill vs stats to a point where skill slightly matters and stats are everything. What we have now is somewhat like that but skill is still heavily required. Once that is gone well..
And yes i know you will say you didnt state any of these things, but they are the reprocusions of what slight changes to to physical balance of a game. This is why you must chart out all classes at once, and balance them all on paper at the same time. O v D v Speed v Resists and so forth. Change them all at the same time. Gametest it for a month than release it to the public. Askign for simple changes tend to make for worse aftereffects.
Yet I am sure you are 100% positive that your ideas or discussion will not contribute to any of the bad things i just said.
Shadow Dancer
02-10-03, 03:55
I think tanks need a more valuable role. But I don't think their damage should be increased, as that would be unfair to the apu.
DarkPhoenix
02-10-03, 03:56
Originally posted by Ultima
Becoz, as stated earlier, it would be nice to see some more battle strategy. And no im not talking about roling dice. Im talking about having a plan, set a couple of ya tanks up at the OPS entrance while ya Spys do some stealthing reconancence and ya PEs and PPUs back up the tank. If an attack force comes into sight the tank can fire sum big shit into them while some of the PEs and APUs move forward to head on the enemy.
As stated before (I think) this would be cool...if it actually would work.
Too much organization in my opion can be a bad thing. Just because your organized doesn't mean the enemy is. They could be anywhere and pop-up unexpectadly right from under you. Though it is true that if some strategies will allow for this and therefore make the strategy viable, but I can garauntee you it will rarely happen.
Also, some people tend to want glory, granted there is only a few. These people will surely screw the plan up or something else will happen.
FOR IRON MONKEY:
maybe i jumped at you to much, I simply am suggesting an idea for the game and it can be soul destroying to see ppl come up with tired flames that dont seem relevent or worthy to the poster
You seem to argue your points well so again I hope I didnt belittle you, but my only wish was to suggest a role for the 'tank' to fulfil, not any sole nerfs or sole boosts. A mixture of the two, and as you can see ppl are undecided and dont seem to want to take both my points into account.
PPl seem to say one of the either;
Tanks are too powerful as it is and their CS aims far to fast its not fair
Tanks shouldn't be a turret, it wouldn't be fun.
Im suggesting a mixture, ppl seem to pick one or the other of my points out and not think of the other, as previously stated a PSI monk chooses APU or PPU, maybe a Tank should have to choose Melee or Turret.
Again Im only putting an idea forward and am certainly not crying NERFFFF i would just like to see sum role defining for the tank class.
peace mate :cool:
The other day i was tl 10 poisoned by a tank.
Here's my view of tanks:
I've been playing the same tank since february or so. I think that their role in OP wars should be frontal attack with AoE. By this I mean is the tanks come in to a medium-long distance and attack with AoE. I feel that the CS should really only be a fall back weapon for when the enemie gets with in shooting range (i'm talking more about pistols/cannons here, not rifles just to make that clear). As it is right now I feel the damage done by a CS is fine. If it got any boost it should only be a 5% to 10% boost. Nothing to put the APU out of it's job.
Now, you also have to think of close combat, such as duels/ pepper park fights (:rolleyes: ) A possibility to help tanks out with out hurting other classes would to be (PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME) lowering the the level 1 shelter down to TL 15 so tanks could use them with drugs. This would help the tanks out a bit in small battles with no PPU, and won't hurt OP fights. This would also help out spies allowing them to use the shelter with out having to drug, and will also allow PE's to get better stats on it (unless PE's cap it already, i'm not a PE so I don't know).
So, in summery:
BOOST AoE
Possibly lower the first shelter to TL 15.
Maybe Give the CS a 5% to 10% boost at most to help out the unskilled tanks out there and make them stop whining :p
EDIT: Now that I think of it, don't screw arround with tanks untill the PE/Spy PA's and the radiation bones are out. At that time we will truely be able to see where the tanks stand with the other classes. The only thing that I think should be done is boost AoE.
KidWithStick
02-10-03, 04:47
tanks are fine...
Originally posted by Marzola
Here's my view of tanks:
I've been playing the same tank since february or so. I think that their role in OP wars should be frontal attack with AoE. By this I mean is the tanks come in to a medium-long distance and attack with AoE. I feel that the CS should really only be a fall back weapon for when the enemie gets with in shooting range (i'm talking more about pistols/cannons here, not rifles just to make that clear). As it is right now I feel the damage done by a CS is fine. If it got any boost it should only be a 5% to 10% boost. Nothing to put the APU out of it's job.
Now, you also have to think of close combat, such as duels/ pepper park fights (:rolleyes: ) A possibility to help tanks out with out hurting other classes would to be (PLEASE DON'T FLAME ME) lowering the the level 1 shelter down to TL 15 so tanks could use them with drugs. This would help the tanks out a bit in small battles with no PPU, and won't hurt OP fights. This would also help out spies allowing them to use the shelter with out having to drug, and will also allow PE's to get better stats on it (unless PE's cap it already, i'm not a PE so I don't know).
So, in summery:
BOOST AoE
Possibly lower the first shelter to TL 15.
Maybe Give the CS a 5% to 10% boost at most to help out the unskilled tanks out there and make them stop whining :p
thank you, it is nice to see some alternatives mentioned, I agree with you mostly. I dont really see why the CS should be boosted but think the AOE needs to be made the tanks fortitude.
Regarding the shelter: Im trying to steer clear of the give every1 everything solution and thus defining classes with truely unique roles. I am unsure of the PSI skills of the tank but think maybe they should have zero PSI skill at all.
to Flamers: Again I am not shouting nerf, just thinking of ways to define classes roles, its a BIG difference if you actually think about it.
Originally posted by KidWithStick
tanks are fine...
Q: What class do you play in game if I may ask?
Do you not feel they have no specific role? I am not asking to make them more or less powerful overall, just that they have a role to fullfil if choosed by the player.
Plz respond, if you are a tank and are happy with the current way the game works, I would be interested in your views.
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 05:00
It's obvious AoE needs to be boosted and should be the mainstay of the Tank Force.
........Tank shelter....eheh....*twitch..*heh.... h...o_o
...just no.......sorry...but uhh...that's just nuts....
on the brighter side PE shelter would make them godlike from that... *means having near holy ppu buff equivilent with shelter* o_O
Yea, I was kinda hesitant in puting that in. I was trying to think of a way to make the tank's defense a bit better so people wouldn't be able to argue if the PE or the Tank has better defense. However, when those anti gamma bones come in that should give tanks a significant boost freeing up more con points to spec into fire or health. As I said in my edit, don't mess with tanks untill the new features come in. After that we can bitch and moan all we want :p
Now off to sleepz for me
Hah my Kamikaze tank fought a clan member of mine in Neofrag on his spy. X-ray modded CS, it took 7-8 bursts directly to take him down. But he was able to take me down in less than 5 bursts from his rolh and the damage wasn't even capped on it. So the kamikaze chip sucks for tanks, but even so if it was taking that much to take him down even with that huge boost from the kamikaze chip, then OUCH! Tanks = sux, now :(
QuantumDelta
02-10-03, 05:28
If PE and Tank Armor/Con were to give the EXACT same values endgame.
Shelter would mean PEs have a 9.4 ish % defencive bonus to xray, fire, and energy (..I swear poison stacks too..) over the tank.
However most PEs cannot do that.
Most PEs strategically position their resists then use certain drugs and spells to boost their defence.
AFAIK The PE can't break a certain limit of resistance.
Even at THAT point in time, the Tank does more damage over time to the PE (who typically has less HP to afford such resists).
Even before skill is involved, tanks have the advantage.
The runspeed nerf on cannons, as well as the HP and damage advantage of the tank means the two classes are roughly equal to eachother.
This is why I am normally hesitant to do anything about CS, or whatever...
I thought I explained that pretty simply....if the tanks still can't keep up.....I'm sorry, maybe it's time to take those zerk chips out and think about your setups a little more, the INT malus must be hurting a lot.
Not...actually directed....at anyone in particular...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I thought I explained that pretty simply....if the tanks still can't keep up.....I'm sorry, maybe it's time to take those zerk chips out and think about your setups a little more, the INT malus must be hurting a lot.
Not...actually directed....at anyone in particular... [/B]
Why do you have to use such big wordz? I'm still waiting for my hookedz on fonikz to cum.
Anyway, yes, right now the only thing that should be boosted is is AoE.
Ok, this time I really will go to sleeps
Originally posted by Ultima
1)Tanks should not be able to run fast...
2)tanks should do atleast double the damage they do at current.
I simply could not agree more.
Gentanks are supposed to be hulking behemoths with massive firepower, excellent armor, and low mobility.
If that's not the case I want my Rhino to be the fastest vehicle in the game, but still have the best armor and best damage.... Kinda like the Gentanks are now.
why do i get the feeling people compare tanks to the apu/ppu combo a lot of the time.
have you people ever seen tanks in op fight buffed by ppus ?
o0 they will totally dominate they are practically unkillable. + they got good dmg.
You want Tanks back in the game?
Give us a Rare Gatlin Cannon!!!!!!!
You think the TSG is good, just think what a TL 100+ Gatlin Cannon could do.......
death&decay
02-10-03, 09:15
I think the balance between PEs and tanks is quite OK at the
moment. Those who know me also know about my chars, dJingo
advanced and IVY that is..
Erm yeah I've played tank since the beginning of retail, 1 month
ago or sumit I started playing my pistol-PE. I've also spent some
time in pepper park looking for fights ;)
I've done quite a few duells and attacked lots of people for no
particular reason, and I found out that the only advantage the PE
has, is the ability to stealth, run off, heal up (30-45 seconds),
come back and PWNZOR..
Tanks can't do that.
Even without drugs I managed to kill 5 Tangent guys (all in same
clan, not too experienced that's for sure) who tried to jump me in
PP. I had to hide and heal a few times but so what, that's what
stealth is t3h pwn for. Oh that group consisted of high-level ppu,
mid-level PPU, 2 highlevel PEs, 1 low level PE.
Of course, and i repeat, they were not quite experienced. But the
PPUs were using parashock and damage boost a lot (that's about
all they were doing actually, they kept forgetting to reshelter
themselves which ended up in them dropping dead n me sexing
them) but if I would have gone in as Tank, even tho i feel like my
tank's better than my PE, they would have killed me. slowly, but
surely.
So that's my point, balance is OK when you look at duells, but
considering overall combat performance (ability to take on
multiple targets) I gotta say, PEs are much more effective killers.
Dem is me words, have a nice day all of ya :)
bye bye
Actually I'm not against how the PE is now.
To all the tanks with many berzerk chips implanted out there: yes, a PE can maintain a better defense then a tank and yes, a PE can take 12-14 CS bursts, but please keep in mind, that this defense isn't "stable", it relays on shelter and drugs. Without shelter and drugs, the PE's defense is much weaker!
The GenTank is the main combat machine, the "simple warrior". A PE runs into an equal tank, the PE has to die. Plain and simple. As I see the PE as the skilled killer. So back to the example: PE runs into the tank, but retreats when its get hot to strike back 30 seconds later at almost full health. After doing it once or maybe twice, the tank either hit the GR or died. Tanks have the brute force combat style, PEs a more sophisticated one that involves tactics. Due to low heal rate (not to mention the lack of stealth), the tank can't fight PE style. So does a PE have a hard time fighting the tank style. At least that is how I see things...and I admit I'm really not interested how it is in real life or what the story says. I base it on what I see in the game.
The current situation is in my opinion damn close to what I mentioned...when the PE uses pistols. When he uses rifles, we get a little away from it, but not that much.
Tank changes:
-More for power for CS: nope. a) it is not really necessary to boost the damage on the CS. b) CS and PE are basically the two most balanced weapons and everything is getting balanced around them or compared to them. We want a more powerful weapon, we should demand a new one.
-AoE boost: yes. most definetly. asap.
-Low level shelter for tanks: no idea. very dangerous. And for me, shelter and tanks just dont fit, but that is a highly subjective personal opinion ;-)
If you want tanks to have slightly better defense (please keep in mind, that other classes except monks will benefit from the antigamme bones too, so these will not "boost" tanks only) give them defense that fits the tanks, like the idea of giving them access to light belts. You will then most likely see more tanks in PA and also more tanks being a little stronger, but slower.
-Weaponary: yes, give tanks the weapons mentioned in patch 15x that Parad0x posted some days ago. KK did it properly back then, they just forgot to add these weapons and thats most likely why tanks have to stick to one weapon: CS.
-Rare Gatlin: sure, gimme! But, a rare gatlin should have a higher stamina drain then a speedgun. Trust me, you dont want to see tanks running all the time with a rare gatlin on their shoulders. Currently there are ways to use speedguns almost like tanks use a CS now. Assuming the rare gatlin will be deadly, a tank should in most cases stand still to fire it or have his quickbelt slots filled with stamina booster if he want to use it on the run. Otherwise the hell will break lose.
On a side note: we need more tanks, otherwise the existing ones will start to tweak their setups for APUs as their main enemy (currently, afaik, most tanks are still set up against other tanks as their enemy or use a balanced setup). The moment tanks change their setups for APUs ignoring other tanks as a potentional threat, we might get some sort of a new balance problem.
death&decay
02-10-03, 11:48
I wish everyone who posts here would play all classes, PE and
Tank in this case..
It's always like "NERF TEH TANKS" or "NERF TEH PEs"..
I mean.. WTF?
If I can't beat someone else I should try to rack up some skill,
no matter which class I'm playing GODDAMNIT.
REMEMBER KIDS:
IF IT KILLS YOU THEN IT > YOU = IT PWNZ; YOU'RE CRAP.
Could anyone please post something like
"Y'ALL JUST DON'T KNOW HOW SUXXXXXX YOU ARE!!???/////"
bye
//edit: I do NOT consider myself as the best player ever, I know there are people who are definitely better than I am.
I would say playing all classes is a requirement to talk about balance...or at least to master one class to the edge and being able to hear the arguments of those playing the other classes without looking only throu the eyes of ones own class.
But most important of all: playing the class properly. I'm not kidding, it always drives me nuts when people try to play a class like they are used to play another class. This just doesnt work, like the prime examples of FL spies who can't beat a tank toe on toe ;-)
Jesterthegreat
02-10-03, 12:49
what is this obsession people having with tanks doing the most damage? where did this idea come from? O_o
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
what is this obsession people having with tanks doing the most damage? where did this idea come from? O_o
I think from the class name and how tanks look like, esp. with a PA on.
Jesterthegreat
02-10-03, 13:20
well how about readin through NC history?
finding that the monks mass produced GenTanks (Geneticaly Engineered Tanks) to fight...
the reason they won the war was the sheer wieght of numbers... nothing to do with weapon skills and being the best there is
just pointing that out ^.^
You can't implement storyline stuff into game mechanics in a game that highly rely on PvP. It just won't work. According to the story line, monks can fly and would tear any other class apart just by thinking about it...I don't think we want to see it in game.
Jesterthegreat
02-10-03, 13:38
i like that quote...
You can't implement storyline stuff into game mechanics in a game that highly rely on PvP
we cannot implement storyline into a MMORPG
are you a kk guy? lmao
and yet this thread is all about doubling tanks damage... thus making it just as bad as if psi's were like they are in story
they are fast (i know that was a point in this thread) they do good damage and have good defence... you can't be the best at everything... wether you are a Psi or a tank!
tanks do not need a shelter, they need more choice of pvp weapon aoe and melee dont cut it , also they need a better way to heal
REMEMBER KIDS QD IS BETTER THAN YOU
btw qd your a cock so get some skills
You just got it wrong. What I meant was you cant implement several aspects that sound good in a storyline into a game that heavily relay on PvP. As we know, wizzard/mages/witches for example can often control the mind of other people yet you can't put such a thing into the game mechanics. It just doesnt work.
Besides, if I understand it correct, the thread started about letting tanks make more damage, but make then almost non mobile units while combat. I somehow dont get your comment about speed then. But that actually doesnt matter much, as I dislike many ideas of the ideas anyway ;P
Originally posted by Oath
to put it simply,
Fuck that, if we went way back and had no cannon speed nerf then fair enough, BUT, as it stands a tank has to put a great deal of his con points into athletics, and most of his dex into agility,
lowering the runcap (ergo makin em slower?) would free up points for resists, but who wants to play a turret?
I certainly dont, Apu get runcast, tanks get spandou ballet...............er..........:eek: 8| SHITTTTT.
/edit, how can a monk runcast when it takes so much concentration to use these spells? how can a PE run and fire his rifle / pistol to devestating effect and accuracy? how can a spy...............erm...............i lost that one..... how can a spy..............be valid in pvp? :lol: :lol: (jokes)
you dont play a tank as your main, so these changes (hypothetically) dont affect you, why do you even bring up tank nefing when its been asked and called for many times.
I dont agree about tanks having to overspec ATL because that simply isnt true, ive checked, alot of ppl think im like the wind with my cs out......u wanna know how much atl ive got with pa3 on (i always wear pa3 now btw).....ok......60atl i have and i run alot quicker in pvp than most tanks:D
I dont personally think atl influences run speed....i think agl does _with_ the gun out, hence my 120 agl undrugged :p
edit/ oh about the guy talking about apu's......lol eh? RoF is not good, i get 638% /105/min RoF on my HL with my apu who has 340 psi pool and i dont have a DS either.....it was yonks ago i could fully runcast HL, ive got capped dex too so ive got 101 agl as well :p
I like this thread cos I feel so sorry for tanks at times. especially when they get ganked by APU's :(
They are the true PVP class and nothing should really stop them, also I do hope they increase the damage for CS's and make tanks overpowered once again cos it has been a long long long time since I've died from a tank :p
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?threadid=77338
death&decay
02-10-03, 17:53
The only beings, I feel sorry for when they get ganked, are droms.
Leave tanks, PEs, monks and spies alone please, they're fine.
NO MORE NERFAGE!!111
ALL YOU NERFARS MUSTS DECAY IN TEH DIRT!!!11
A better heal for tanks would be nice tho.
Originally posted by death&decay
The only beings, I feel sorry for when they get ganked, are droms.
Leave tanks, PEs, monks and spies alone please, they're fine.
NO MORE NERFAGE!!111
ALL YOU NERFARS MUSTS DECAY IN TEH DIRT!!!11
A better heal for tanks would be nice tho.
I hate the word NERF and it is not what I was suggesting, I was suggesting a rework of skills. More AOE damage and less speed. And to top it all off I dont play my tank much these days anyway so its not me crying it out like a kiddie.
Simply trying to see away to give Tanks a defined role without making the other classes suffer.
Dueled with an apu in my clan last night.. I outrank him by 4 ranks I think... He won 2, I won one, but I suck, so I think it's pretty fair. The first one I think he won because his RoF is so much faster than mine and by the time I ran up to where he was I was dead. After that, we started within the same room and it was a much better fight.
Here's the outcome of the duels:
tank+apu vs ppu+ppu: tank+apu handily beat the ppus
tank+ppu vs apu+ppu: apu+ppu pwned the tank+ppu
tank vs apu: apu won 2/3
tank+tank+apu vs ppu: ppu died quickly - but he was outranked by 4-10 ranks
Kami pistol PE vs 10-ranks-higher CS tank: tank won 2/3 - there is definitely strategy to be used against pistol PEs, and it isn't what I'm used to. Kamis are deadly if they get jump on ya, regardless of rank.
Kami pistol PE vs APU: apu pwned the PE
/edit: added pe info
death&decay
06-10-03, 10:03
Originally posted by Xin
tank+apu vs ppu+ppu: tank+apu handily beat the ppus
No one's supposed to die in that one O_o
QuantumDelta
06-10-03, 10:05
Originally posted by death&decay
No one's supposed to die in that one O_o
If S/D wasn't nerfed, like in the old days, that would be fairly true, however, PPU Buffs are hardly even more effective than PE (Self cast) buffs now.
death&decay
06-10-03, 10:14
S/D alone won't do the trick but holy heal will do.
QuantumDelta
06-10-03, 10:17
Even that pales against CS/TSG/HL/FA when they're capped and concentrated...
I mean, my Pistol PE has killed an APU backed by a (Holy all, and healin the APU)PPU Solo self buffs :p (I hide behind the APU to avoid para/DB, and I hit him with DB as I approached....heh :p)
JustIn_Case
06-10-03, 10:29
Originally posted by Ste-X
tanks do not need a shelter, they need more choice of pvp weapon aoe and melee dont cut it , also they need a better way to heal
Better way to heal? Tanks get 500% on the TL-3 heal if it has descent stats. You want Holy heal or what?
I agree with you on the weapon part, more choises.
Originally posted by death&decay
No one's supposed to die in that one O_o
Apu used antibuff maybe?
death&decay
06-10-03, 10:44
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Even that pales against CS/TSG/HL/FA when they're capped and concentrated...
I don't think so.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I mean, my Pistol PE has killed an APU backed by a (Holy all, and healin the APU)PPU Solo self buffs :p (I hide behind the APU to avoid para/DB, and I hit him with DB as I approached....heh :p)
The APU was a n00b then and so was the Holy all PPU.
I mean FFS, Monks without S/D can resist LIB or BS quite well,
with S/D and holy heal running you can't kill em.
Well not if you're alone.
//edit: LOL I totally screwed up wid dem quotes O_o fixed now
death&decay
06-10-03, 10:46
Originally posted by JustIn_Case
Apu used antibuff maybe?
So what, if it's only 1 APU antibuff does fuck nothing..
I mean if the PPU has eyes and makes use of them, he can
reshelter as quick as the APU can antibuff..
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