View Full Version : Tank PA Update ????
As many know tank pa is used primarly for lvl'n.I thought of something that would make it used by tanks for more than lvl'n.
Many patches ago we (tanks) got a run speed nerf when our cannons are pulled out.Thats fine as a big weapon should slow someone down.
But as the heavy weapons pa was designed to support heavy weapons,I was thinking take out the run speed nerf when cannons are pulled in pa.As the pa already has negative athletics it would only be a small boost but would make it more widely used.
so what do you all think?
(I would like all peoples opinions not just tanks,as this change would effect everyone not just tanks)
I agree with this in that "Power Armour" should help you in some way.. especially in carrying a big ass heavy weapon.
However.. it is a big chunk of metal that gives a fair bit of protection, so should slow you down.
At the moment, I think it's pretty balanced to stop EVERYONE wearing it, and gives enough for people to wear it in PvP.
Eddie
QuantumDelta
30-09-03, 22:28
Tanks make me laugh ^_^;
Being a tank i just find it lame when we wear pa which is not much better than dur4, we take a extra speed hit from the one we already got.
I wouldnt mind so much if the HC they gave would alow you to cap your CS with HC1 boost in PA4. But......as a tank with capped str,all str in HC along with marine,herc,moveon, hardened 3,PA4,and HC-1 boost and all INT into WL I still only have 243 or 244% aim on CS.(CS is 120 in all stats but damage)
With that said I have heard that spys will be able to cap SH and other high TL rifles with their PA on.
CS is only a TL 105 rare and a maxed tank with all HC giving possibilites to them cant cap it.The SH is a higher TL but will be able to be capped by spys in PA......................ends ramblings
edited to add all int in WL
Well not remove the runspeed effect but certainly reducing it makes sense. It would be a good step towards bringing tanks back in line with other classes, heaven knows they deserve something to let them perform their role.
QD I can't decide if you're talking about tanks being no threat to you or if that's one of those sarcastic posts, which you'll follow up with more crap about CS aim.
QuantumDelta
01-10-03, 03:01
The latter.
Good tanks are far from no threat o_O
Wasn't really a comment on CS aim, moreso a tank wanting the movement nerf lifted.
Like hell :p
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
The latter.
Good tanks are far from no threat o_O
Wasn't really a comment on CS aim, moreso a tank wanting the movement nerf lifted.
Like hell :p
Not lifted, but reduced with PA, make a tank wearing PA equal to a tank without PA. Which one do you have trouble with, the non-PA tank or the PA tank?
Btw, I have been saying for several months that the runspeed with cannons drawn should be capped since tanks can overspec agility and bring their speed up too high, how about if both changes were made at the same time?
i want a pa more like monk pa :) i rather hav -agility then -ath
QuantumDelta
01-10-03, 03:22
Originally posted by Scikar
Btw, I have been saying for several months that the runspeed with cannons drawn should be capped since tanks can overspec agility and bring their speed up too high, how about if both changes were made at the same time?
That'd actually be a nerf imo o_O
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
That'd actually be a nerf imo o_O
Isn't that what you want?
I meant so it's balanced, PA should make a tank better instead of worse. So you cap the runspeed with cannons out but PA reduces the effect. Maybe slow tanks down overall, but in all honesty they shouldn't have the speed of a PE or a spy. Maybe then we could get some better armor too.
QuantumDelta
01-10-03, 03:34
I don't want tanks _nerfed_ I don't mind having to take 4-5 drugs to capable of fighting a tank with a setup equivilent to my PE setup and player skill, I just don't want it to go out of my reach completely to be able to do that.
There are tanks out there who are beyond most of the things I've seen recommended or discussed on this forum so meh...
Those top tanks would be nerfed, only reason I have problems with them is they have better-than-liberator-aiming and cursed soul power (though they tend to prefer to use 5 slot TPC), they have great speed and resists.
Weakness; Poison of course but that doesn't really help in anything outside op wars...which there are ppus and more chances to take drugs...heh bleh.
But those cream of the cream being good in duels are stopping the rest of the tank world from doing their job in OP wars. Tanks are supposed to be nothing more than damage sponges, and they can't perform that role in an OP war currently.
QuantumDelta
01-10-03, 03:43
As the guy that tend(ed)s to get looked at for battle tactics in op fights, I actually find Tanks most useful for AE Spam.
AE Spam is a very useful tool, unfortunatly you need 3+ tanks for it to be effect and due to APU Range it's somewhat less useful than I would like.
Tank AE needs to be seriously upped anyway..
As for their only job being damage spounges, if that is so, then why do you need your cannon out if you want to run faster and dodge/soak up fire?
Area weapons are pretty much useless at OP wars in too many cases, not to say in most cases even. We use them frequently, but these are more a way to stop stealthers getting out of the OP to snipe us from the back. The damage done by these weapons is usally pointless, as both sides outheal it with their PPUs. They would be usefull if OPs would be bigger or range on APU spells smaller, but currently in most OPs the AE-Tanks get in reach of APUs so usualy there is no point in it...when you can find these few tanks these days ;P
I think the Tank PA should add more resists + hc, and maybe a little less on the negative side. Personally I don't use it because of the Kamikaze chip :p I need speed for my setup, because I go down fast, so anything that slows me down is worthless. So I run in with capped CS, take an enemy down fast and run the hell out of there :p I can take at least 3 hits of any energy before I go down, but with speed I know I can try my hardest to get out.
KK needs to lower the weight of the Tank PA for one thing...
PA 3: 21.5
PA 4: 24.5.....:wtf:
A reduction in the -Athletics gimp would be cool too....
Anyone happen to notice that almost all monks wear PA as soon as they can, but not even half the Tanks wear their PA, what does that tell you?
I only wear it on certain cave runs....
Tank HC pa needs to get a -5 to all -ATLs on each PA level. That
would make it a bit more endurable. Then the run nerf needs to
be lifted slightly because it's the reason i stopped playing my
tank after a year.
Also, I hope people who vote on this poll play or have played a
tank class prior. If not, eat <insert here> and die.
FBI
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
As the guy that tend(ed)s to get looked at for battle tactics in op fights, I actually find Tanks most useful for AE Spam.
AE Spam is a very useful tool, unfortunatly you need 3+ tanks for it to be effect and due to APU Range it's somewhat less useful than I would like.
Tank AE needs to be seriously upped anyway..
As for their only job being damage spounges, if that is so, then why do you need your cannon out if you want to run faster and dodge/soak up fire?
Because a tank has to attract attention. He's not going to soak up any fire if he can't do any damage, the enemy will just ignore him and shoot his apus or ppus. That's the fundamental flaw of tanks, they are supposed to be damage sponges but at an OP war they don't even get shot these days because they're not much of a juicy target compared to apus and ppus, which ultimately decide the OP wars.
Tank AoE is just about their only use, trouble is if the enemy has a decent ppu then AoE won't do enough damage to cause any real trouble, and you don't even get the chance for it these days, you bombard an OP with AoE and the apus and ppus just swarm out and rush you.
death&decay
01-10-03, 09:35
NERF TEH TNAKS!!!!!11
Seriously, I don't play my tank too much.
But after the changes that were made to the PAs, i got into my PA3
and jumped through pepper park to see how it works.
PA3 + weapon drawn is like being parashocked lol.
Dunno if that's supposed to be it, but if anyone runs at that speed
in PVP, they won't last long.
I have a tank, PE, APU and PPU. They are all 'allmost' maxxed out
and have decent gear and setups..
There's no point in playing a tank these days really.
As PE i can take on 3 tanks, even if they kick my ass i laff at em,
SEX them, stealth, run a way and heal.. Takes me 20 seconds to
heal up and there I go again. It might take all day but so what, finally I'll win.
So.. NERF TEH TANKS!!!11
EDIT:
Oh and btw, I think there should be more rifle-style HC weapons,
like the flamer for example. If I was a tank in NC I'd never ever
even think about having weapons that are shoulder-mounted.
Rocket launchers maybeand all that, but as primary weapon it would be something like the M-60. Oh how I loved the old times
when Plasma cannons sucked and all tanks had PA1/ePR. Looks
so much cooler...
Psycho_Soldier
01-10-03, 09:39
Im a little to tired to read through every post. I just wanted to mention that Tank PA will be viable once anti-gamma bones come out. Take the resist out of xray to make up what is lacking in ATL. You might even end up with more ATL than you originally did.
Power Armour for tanks sux for PvP, there is no way for it to practicly used, unless you wanna be a turret in an OP war. Good for leveling though.
Shadow Dancer
01-10-03, 09:51
The runspeed hit on PA is too big. It's the same reason I stopped using monk PA.
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Im a little to tired to read through every post. I just wanted to mention that Tank PA will be viable once anti-gamma bones come out. Take the resist out of xray to make up what is lacking in ATL. You might even end up with more ATL than you originally did.
I don't get why people think gamma bones suddenly free up con points for tanks. You can only use 2 bones, because you need the end from chest and the ath/agl from leg/foot. So you have gamma head and arms, and that's it. Even if you had all of the bones, for +60 armor, that doesn't free up much in con. Xray is the weakest of all tank resists because you can only get it to 124 armor. Add up your fire resist + inq armor and I bet it goes higher than that.
After extensive testing, ive come to the conclusion, tanks dont suck, in fact theyre still one of the greatest classes available, so far ive killed at least one of every class in the game, including glue users.
Though i agree with death&decay almost 100%, pa = glue like abilities and epr tanks looked fookin cool.
OZMO!!!!
nerf the armor ozmo
Oh yeah, my new gripe NERF THE HITEK GIVING IMPLANTS, My pistol pe cant use a blacksun :rolleyes: H4X
One more thing, the asshole you guys made of ali yesterday was bs.
I think the GenTank’s major problem today is that it is "obsolete" due to the changes in other classes and the knowledge player now have. Back in the days, the GenTank was a class that could dish awesome damage and take much damage - with much CON and good armor responsible for that. Back then, pretty much nobody knew really how the resist system works, so character setups were far away for being perfect, but due to the high CON and good armor GenTanks had the edge compared to other classes, even when not skilled to perfection. The high CON and armor was basically a buffer zone for player mistakes in the skill point assignment process.
Today we look at a different situation: we know exactly how to skill characters into perfection squeezing the last bits out of what is possible. And basically here is the problem of the GenTank. With a damage reduction limit of 76% the defensive part of the tank become outdated as other classes having access to shelters and deflectors means for the GenTank he will always be behind in defense for one simple reason: damage has to pass shelter or deflector, where it gets reduced and then calculated against the resists and armor. The GenTank gets the entire damage on his resist and armor and here we assume 76% the limit. As the damage reduction in real numbers gets less noticeable the nearer that 76% cap is, so does the defense of the tank. There is just no point in it. Even if we give tanks some uber armor now, it won’t change much as tanks can already get to these 76% with their CON and the armor already available. Sure, some better armor would free up points here and there, but the tank’s defense basically won’t change.
Private Eyes for example can get close to the natural defense of the GenTank as the differences near the cap aren’t huge. So even when the numbers suggest a big difference, it is actually very small. And now the shelter comes into play. While the GenTank can gain few % towards the cap that a barely noticeable, a shelter using class gets a reduction of around 1/3 of the entire damage cap. And that seems to me to be actually the problem of the GenTank.
And for those who are reading the first and last lines only: no, this isn’t about nerfing PEs, it is about to find out what the problem of the GenTank really is.
And for those who claim there is no problem with the GenTank: there is a very simple indicator if there is something wrong with a class: people stop playing them. BTW, “Tanks are boring” is a weak argument, at least in most cases as most people in Neocron play what is effective in PvP unless tradeskills are their major joy.
Originally posted by nugz420
... hardened 3...
wtf is hardened 3?
--Lev
Like that guy said gamma bones + PA3....... maybe 4 = extreme dam absorbtion. Once this happends tanks are going to be nerfed.
1) PA is re-fucked
2) CS is nerfed
3) Run speed with cannon nerfed (again)
4) Con reduction- unlikely but maybe
QD 5slot tpc o_0 who the fuck uses a 5 slot tpc??? appart from ying lolz sure you can aim quick but its below half the damage of a cs per burst, ROF is the same with a cs using pa 4, sure aiming is better but any blue arse monkey can aim with a cs its just timeing the bursts and keeping the lock rather than trying to dodge all over the place like a pistol pe... :D
tanks are easy to use, its just tanks are more appealing to new ppl i guess so it appears as if tanks are fux0red, i would bet that most monks are rerolled charecters, tanks are mostly new with a small core of veterans, proberbly the best tanks on pluto at the moment are:
Xio
Nish
+ we have great fights and i hate to be a wanker but i can consistantly beat both of them :/ although its fair to say im shit at fighting pistol pe's which nish is pretty fucking good at and xio is very good all rounder duelist especially apu's.
i just joined new dawn on saturn so we shall see after my pc's head pops out of its ass how different the server skill levels are :)
Originally posted by REMUS
Like that guy said gamma bones + PA3....... maybe 4 = extreme dam absorbtion. Once this happends tanks are going to be nerfed.
I don't think so, the AntiGamma bones won't change as much for a tank as some people expect. Besides, APUs can't deal xray damage so even if I'm wrong, there won't be many to complain ;P
Originally posted by REMUS
Like that guy said gamma bones + PA3....... maybe 4 = extreme dam absorbtion. Once this happends tanks are going to be nerfed.
Gamma bones are going to mean a lot of lomming for tanks if theyre actually any use, give us some loving :lol: .
tanks need to put 114 xray into there resists even if these bones only at +5 xray each and there is a chest head and foot bone, thats just saved 14 levels on con. Tanks will now easily be able to cap all resists, with a pp+herc even more easily with 520+ hp (with basic 1) and you are seriously telling me they wont get nerfed....................................................................................o_O
EDIT: apus dont deal xray dam but they deal fire poison and energy, which a tank will now be able to come close to capping..............o_O o_O i feel like saying retard but mehhhhhhhhh!
thats like me saying
dont nerf the hybrids just tone them down
you say
dont "remove" it just tone it down.
:rolleyes:
im a tank atm i use pa2 for all instances the runspeed nerf does not need touching its perfectly fine as it is
when they add gamma bones you will see hinch, all tanks will be able to take a stupidly high amounts of damage, and the cs with capped rof and almost capped aim is going to take this piss.
its REALLY going to take the piss+hybrids took an amazing amount of piss and they got nerfed thru the floor thru the techtonic plates thru the mantel and kicked around hell and is still bounceing off its walls
Remus, I'm really wondering what you base your opinion on. Let me explain why I am wondering: I recently changed the setup on two of my tanks as my main enemy usualy isn't a tank or PE but APU. So I pushed ENR from 160 to 200+ and guess what: I'm often not even able to notice a difference when I test with an APU (ffs, there should be a switch to constant damage for testing purposes ;-).
When I get PPU support, then yes, there is a difference, but still, it just isnt worth it...anyone selling ENR LoMs for cheap? ;-)
yeah.. i know how to use a tank, i know how to play a tank, i know how to win with a tank, i know tank resists and i know tank set ups.
thats what i base my opinion on..... mate :lol:
anyone that wants to put the time in to lom will be rewarded im not gonna lom for at least a month after the patch becuase i think there is going to be alot of bitching.
remus i can already stand tehre and take a fair amount of damage but as for the speed dont unnerf it its fine if they do unnerf it then i want a mini hybrid unnerf and the % setting down to 25%
Originally posted by REMUS
yeah.. i know how to use a tank, i know how to play a tank, i know how to win with a tank, i know tank resists and i know tank set ups.
thats what i base my opinion on..... mate :lol:
Be more specific about the example I gave you. We deal with eachother ingame, I know you know stuff about tanks and that is basically why I'm wondering to see you say with antigamme bones and shifting points between resists tanks will be so uber. The best thing I can think of atm is more health and more endurance compared to the good setups in use. We can push resists higher, sure, but there is just no point in it as we already are damn near cap, well except poison in most cases.
Why does everyone think that the bones are gonna make Tanks kickass? As was stated earlier, using all of them removes a lot of bonuses from existing batqueen and exp bones.
The power armour too. Why do tanks get a speed nerf when the damn stuff is supposed to assist in carrying heavier things?? I can only hope that spy and PE PA get the same speed nerf as these are classes that have less strength and would have trouble luggin it around....
Originally posted by Lecko
Why does everyone think that the bones are gonna make Tanks kickass? As was stated earlier, using all of them removes a lot of bonuses from existing batqueen and exp bones.
The power armour too. Why do tanks get a speed nerf when the damn stuff is supposed to assist in carrying heavier things?? I can only hope that spy and PE PA get the same speed nerf as these are classes that have less strength and would have trouble luggin it around....
The problem is, tanks can have insane speed due to the fact that they have 100 CON (ATL) and 70 DEX (AGL). What they save in ATL under CON, they can compensate by AGL under DEX as they basically only need T-C there. Now, pistol users for example, need speed as one of their major advantages. With tanks being as fast as pistol users or thanks to the change to ATL+AGL even faster then these (combat and speed in the same skill), they would lose their advantage. This happens when you make changes to an existing system: you can't forsee what ideas players will have...
@ Lev
Hardened3 is the backbone they sell at crytons that adds +8 to HC.
***Correction i stated aim as 243-244% when i logged on i noticed it was 247% but still that is using all the HC giving imps besides Kami Chips as they do more harm than good IMO at high LVL's***
@ Lucjan
Tanks may have 100 con and 70 dex but unlike other classes tanks have to way overspecc the soft cap on run speed 70/70 to acheive decent speed while their cannon is pulled.Where other classes dont really have to overspec the soft cap to maintain a good runspeed in combat.
Shadow Dancer
01-10-03, 19:46
Even if the bones do make tanks kickass they won't be nerfed. OMG TANKS WILL BE THE MASTERS OF COMBAT................you mean like they should be? O_o
Heres wut i got: first its possible to get tank xray to 129 resist (i tested it; possible tho with a slight decrease in overall hlt). Second i can get 70 ath with PA3; 115 agil; with cannon out i can still outrun some PA using ppus. Third, while aim is slow the dmg i take is much less (roughly 30 dmg from HL, same with FA).
yeah runspeed with cannon out should be unnerfed by say 25%...
but other than that tanks are fine IMO.
Dribble Joy
01-10-03, 20:38
Originally posted by mdares
its possible to get tank xray to 129 resist
*giggles
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
*giggles
erm 114 in con translates to 119; +10 in armor...
119 + 10 = ... OMG! 129!
Dribble Joy
01-10-03, 20:44
You said 129 resist poopoo man
erm yeah i was under the impression that everyone understood by the loose term resists it refered to overall resists (compilation from con and armor).
soz didnt know that wasnt convention. :D
Dribble Joy
01-10-03, 20:56
Most people refer to resists as adding to armour, so total armour is what used most often (at least as far as i have experienced)
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