View Full Version : Turret Discussion Thread
The big picture here is to A) encourage and facilitate a defending clans ability to defend their OP and B) discourage the camping of one particular spot.
Traditionally, defenders should have the advantage when defending a base. However, the way it is now the attackers can take all the time they want to organize themselves and the defenders are at a disadvantage. When KK allowed defenders to GR directly into the UG without SI impairment they went a long way towards rectifying this problem. When a defending clan gets a hack warning message, it takes some time for people to get to a GR if they were out hunting. Often, they even have to stop at a GoGo or their apartment to change gear. In my opinion, this was a great change and it also eliminated entirely the horrible GR camping issue.
The ability to place turrets UG simply allowed the defenders to have a little more time to organize by discouraging the attackers from coming UG. If KK decides to disallow UG turrets then they should allow UG access based on the attack setting of the OP. The UG would simply be inaccessible until the attackers complete the hack of the OP. This is just one possible way to deal with issue A. Perhaps they should also increase the time between hacking layers from 30 seconds to 3 minutes. However KK chooses to deal with it, they have to do something that allows the defending clan to GR in to the OP in safety and have some reasonable amount of time to prepare themselves. We don’t want to go from the old method of GR camping to UG camping.
Another common problem now is the camping of the UG entrance. This is almost as bad as GR camping and the fact that it involves a zone change leads to many people crashing and dieing (oh wait, KK doesn’t even acknowledge that the game has stability problems). I think they should add at least 2 more entrances to the UG at every OP. This way, an attacker will not know which exit the defenders will be using to come up from the UG. They usually will not have enough people to properly guard all 3 exits and so clans may just give up camping the UG exits.
Ray
Ok. I am going to let this one stay open. Feel free to discuss turrets and the placement.
If this turns into anything more than a civil discussion, I am going to close it and pass on some 3 day bans. I know its a heated topic so please be adults about it. It is a game after all :)
Official Announcement
Hello Folks,
because of a big discussion in the german part of the offical forum and to clearify the situation:
Turrets in the underground of OPs are NOT allowed!
The reason is simple:
If an OP is hacked the underground won't be taken over properly.
This is a bug!
Most of the time(!) the underground is still owned by the old OP-owner. This is not the sense of an OP-hack.
KK is currently working on a fix and a patch, which will contain this fix, will come asap.
Until this patch arrives, GMs will delete ALL turrets in the underground (only there and you will not get a replacement for a deleted turret)
Cheers,
Black Ivory
Do not spam. Again and you will be banned for 3 days.
--Garm
Originally posted by Garm
Ok. I am going to let this one stay open. Feel free to discuss turrets and the placement. --Garm
Thanks, Garm.
Originally posted by Garm
I know its a heated topic so please be adults about it. It is a game after all :)
I don't understand why people are so upset about this change. The goal is to make OP wars fun; I think we can all agree on that. Even the attackers usually hope that the defenders show up so they can have a fun fight.
KK simply needs to come up with a solution that gives the defenders time to organize themselves, that's all. Locking access to the UG based on the OP's security setting would accomplish this magnificently.
I also think they should consider my suggestion to add more UG exits because right now, UG exits are being camped almost as badly as the GRs used to be camped.
Ray
just make it like you cant place turrets near the ug exit / entry ... then move the spawn point in the ug a bit back so you still can repp in safely :)
after the 3rd hack the turrets should still be yours...but if all members are dead in the ug the turrets should reset.. no matter if there are still dead members of the other clan in the ug or not..
this way they could fix the damn annoying thing of ppl staying in the ug for hours so the turrets cant reset..
if they want turrets removed completely from ug's.. oh well then we're back to the old gr camping thing =/
.cy
Maybe I'm missing something, but the past patches with the Germans dropping Quick belts in Op Wars and English not proves servers can be changed individual basis. Why not do the same here? I seems to me the English community wants turrets, German community does not. Perhaps a poll could simplify this?
im a bit lost on something i read in spy vs spy, been playing on and off a bit for a while, what was the big deal with the cop bot rifles?
and as for the turrent what happens after the patch fixes this issue? will it clans be allowed to place them back in UG? have the long run of doing this been looked at
@Cirith: It's not the placement of turrets thats the problem.
(and yes, Ryuben, I know of trap issues, but I've been in more OP battles than may here have had hot dinners, so I know how to cope with the situation).
The issue is that the ownership of the underground and the turrets therein doesn't switch instantly to the clan that completes a successful hack above ground.
I am not suggesting that the non-switching is not a bug ... what I have a problem with is the bizarre manner in which the problem is addressed.
It's not a new issue that suddenly appeared with the disastrous recent patch - it's been around for months, and people have just got on with their lives, and coped, and worked their way around the issue, while waiting for a patch to sort it.
Now, out of the blue, with no imminent code solution even hinted at, Black Ivory has decreed that turrets are suddenly disallowed.
The consequences are obvious, and immediate to anyone that actually plays the game.
The decree is self defeating in the extreme.
The worst consequence of the bug is that you have to wait till the UG is clear of people before it switches.
Effectively what you have now is the poor scenario you had 6 months ago, pre GR changes, plus the added bonus that the exit point above ground can be turreted by the opposition.
There was a *reason* turrets weren't placeable next to GR exits you know ?
What I really can't get my head around is why anyone could imagine, even for a second, that this in any way addresses the problem usefully. (I would have called it a "knee-jerk" reaction, but it's months too late).
For the time being, until a patch is ready, please revert to the previous turret rules that everyone has been working with already, rather than screw up the dynamics of OP wars even further.
Should the GR'ers be unlocked too, till the bug is fixed?
Are clans now going to have to travel several zones or more to defend an OP?
I can't see a defending clan wanting to GR straight into their OP that's under attack, knowing they will be somewhat defenceless, since the UG's will most likely be camped....
I could be wrong, tho...
SigmaDraconis
30-09-03, 06:01
The thing i noticed most about this: After weeks and weeks of bitching about this in the english forums..they finally decide to do something about it after a discussion in the german forums... o.0
Anyway I'm glad SOMETHING was finally done....though removing turrets from the UG is a temporary fix they did say a fix was coming out ASAP, im assuming the fix will cause the UG to change control when the OP is hacked..if this is the case then im a happy runner. If they plan on perminantly removing turrets from the UG...well OPwars just got thrown back into the stone age.
BlackPrince
30-09-03, 06:02
So because the Germans have a prob with it, an issue thats not even on the radar for the bastard community (us English Speakers), we get no opinion and just have the law laid down on us?
So sorry, but no. I will continue to lay turrets even as a GM removes them until such time as I decide not to. It's stupid, lame, and a complete waste of what precious little resources KK has at this time. If they don't want it on Jupiter, hand them a cookie with it. But there is no way that they should decide on their own what happens to us on our servers. We didn't even get asked what we thought.
After this, don't tell me that KK doesn't pander to the German communities every wish and ignore the Englisher speakers, as its now clearly utter bollocks.
It's an issue that we as a community have dealt with admirably. Maybe yall should work on stability issues, lag issues, and improving your game instead of wasting time at what is at most, a non-issue for 90% of us.
Want to stop ppl from hiding in the UG after you've hacked the OP? Lay stuns and gates in the entrance, they'll be dead before they're done synching back in.
By disallowing turrets in the UG, the attacker advantage issue has been pushed back to square one. Now the attacking clan will end up camping the UG, eliminating incoming players one by one as they GR in.
The turrets should be allowed and frankly I think that the turrets not converting to the owning teams side worked fine. As it is quite rare that a clan can get their members together, buffed and ready for battle before the attacker manages to capture the OP. So it worked in favor of the defender. Which is fine in my opinion because the defender should have some advantages.
I never found this to be a problem, I don’t understand why this is even an issue?
Where the hell did this come from?
If this has anything to do with the lone players being killed by trapped UG, then the solution should not the be elimination of turrets in the UG, but the placement of a CityCom terminal above ground where any passing player can easily access it.
I frankly think that KK over-reacted the complaints of a rather small yet loud minority.
Am I writing in invisible ink? Nobody wants to comment on my suggestion?
I agree that the GMs should not have taken this stance and should have waited for a patch to fix the problem. However, a patch WILL eventually fix it and we have to find a long term solution to the problem.
The problem is simply that a defending clan needs a safe place to GR to in order to prepare their counterattack. The problem is the camping of this spot by the attackers.
One possible solution is to simply make the UG access controlled by the security settings of the OP. It serves the same purpose of UG turrets and saves the defending clan from having to buy/build turrets. The enemy will not be able to enter the UG AT ALL until they complete the hacking of the OP.
Ray
Shadow Dancer
30-09-03, 07:10
omg excellent suggestion ray.
I'm talking about 2 UG entrances. That's a damn good idea.
And the enemy not being able to enter the UG at all would be good, but can KK actually do that? I dunno, i'm a n00b when it comes to coding. :(
Originally posted by RayBob
Am I writing in invisible ink? Nobody wants to comment on my suggestion?
My apologies RayBob,
The extended time to hack an OP is a good idea. At the present the owning clan would have to be very speedy in order to get all their member into the UG before the OP is taken.
The extra exits, sounds like a fine idea as well. I think that one exit should be in the OP, and another should be somewhere just outside the OP walls. The second exit should only be accessible by the owning clan.
Originally posted by RayBob
....Another common problem now is the camping of the UG entrance. This is almost as bad as GR camping and the fact that it involves a zone change leads to many people crashing and dieing (oh wait, KK doesn’t even acknowledge that the game has stability problems). I think they should add at least 2 more entrances to the UG at every OP. This way, an attacker will not know which exit the defenders will be using to come up from the UG. They usually will not have enough people to properly guard all 3 exits and so clans may just give up camping the UG exits.
Ray
i like this idea of a extra EXIT of the underground maybe it can lead to a place outside the OP walls. this place should be a random location that changes everytime the outpost is captured.
another idea are bunkes that can be reached from the underground. simple rooms with holes to shoot out. i dont even dream of watch towers ur manable turrets that can be reached from underground.
btw i dont think turrets should be change owner if a outpost is captured. they just can get out of controll.
Edit:
lol, i whish german comunity had this big influence on KK like some ppl around her think :D
Spy<VS>Spy
30-09-03, 09:21
myself personaly, not to turn this into a spy VS KK post. i'll be honost KK never seems to know to much about the game in how it actually works.
i'd have to open my great book of neocron history to really peel back the hack and slash methods KK went about with bases. back when the first 'balance of power' debates first started and we went off with two 'mini' bases within neocron industrial zones.
needless to say, we went from skill boost, to income, to clan brag rights...and now...to territory.
to place it blunty, OPS dont align with the rest of the physics in the game. so of course we are exsperincing heavy troubles with this. i find it funny gm's are gracoisly 'allowing' us to talk about this, as being at its core...its a complaint. KK does not like public complaints, it doesnt look good for them, and they like to look good.
surface to say, KK tried to be more like planet side...and well...didnt do it right.
the real answer to bases, is to rebuild them...greasy work...but this cutting and pasting stuff, is not cutting it. i'm not going into specifics with this post but i say ditch the underground completely! rebuild the suckers from scratch.
thats really the only sure fire way to do it.
im not that in to rebuild the complete outposts. there are some tweaks needed to fit the game. there are big fences to guard .... nothin but the console. the door to the op is allways open cannot be blocked, there is no place to take cover, the only thing to hack is the console. so an op battle is kind of borin.
even when u placed turrets the enemy just walk in streight to the console. then they split into hacker and others. the others camp the underground exit or now the underground spawn point.
at the moment the defender of an outpost have nearly no chance of holding it unless he is better. there is nothing like an "bonus" that helps 3 ppl holding up 20 people untill support is ready.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
So because the Germans have a prob with it, an issue thats not even on the radar for the bastard community (us English Speakers), we get no opinion and just have the law laid down on us?
The German speaking community in it's majority neiter knew this rule, nor did we ask for it. The announcement is a result of two days of heated discussion on the German board. Had it not been for the complaints there, I am certain there would never have been an official statement. Turrets would just be removed behind our backs.
Numerous alternative suggestions to this problem have been made. None were accepted or even implemented. Is anyone suprised? By the way, your opinion is irrelevant to those who decide. So is mine. So is everyone else's opinion.
I have read the first posts but not all of them so this may have been said already, apologies if it has.
But in my opinion i think that the hack point should not be above ground at all. It should be located in the UG right at the back.
This would mean that you would have to actually infiltrate the OP. Get by their defences (Above ground) and then into the core of the OP. Maybe even have a few NPC's in the UG who would put up some sort of resistance.
Obviously this Idea would need some adjusting but thats how i would basically like to see OP wars.
worst idea ever and im going to continue to place turrets in the ug of ops....
Its the only way for the deffenders to have a slight chance to gather in time and retake the op...
dont these gms or KK EVER play this game?
seems like they have no idea on how op wars are done...
I've never found the need to go to the UG during an OP war if i was the attacker.
Its usually, take out Turrents.
Begin Hack
Protect Hackers from others
Take Over OP
Fight off the rest of the scum that were just owned.
No need to visit UG
BlackPrince
30-09-03, 15:17
Mangus, Black Ivory clearly said that they came to this decision after a heated argument on the German forums. For the rest of us, as has been said, its been a non-issue.
As far as the alternative suggestions being made and ignored, I do believe that, as its KKs style. Like I said, if its such a big issue for the Germans, make those rules apply to the German servers. The rest of us will continue to (happily) use our creativity to deal with the problem.
Not quite, BlackPrince. He meant the decision to publicly announce this rule. It has secretly been in effect for quite some time for all servers, apparently. In fact the German thread started because someone pointed out that some time ago GMs decided turrets in the UG to be an exploit and were already removing turrets without notice.
The GMs then verified this statement by a player. The resulting discussion was largely questioning the reasons for this rule. The only reason given is that turrets in the UG are not controlled by the attacker at the instant the third hack is completed.
It was pointed out that we were given the opposite information previously. The simple answer from the GMs was: We don't care what a player or forum mod says, only we decide and it is final.
Furthermore, we demanded on official statement as sticky or announcement thread, so that everyone has an equal opportunity to access this information. After two days, this lead to the decision to finally post in the announcement forum.
This sums up the discussion in the German forum from my point of view. Let me point out again: The decision that turrets in the OP UG are illegal has secretly been in effect way before the discussion in the German forum. It has not been influenced in any way by what the Germans did or said. Our discussion just lead to its publication.
agh... they sohuld just change the god damn ownership switch and stop wasting time and making up stupid rules :\
and the gms could refund my clan 131231241241 million credits for lost turrets :\
since they didnt tell us pluto ppl not to turret the ug :\
Ozambabbaz
30-09-03, 16:43
ack, i do hope KK devs will look around before nerfing the UG 8|
More UG exits : brilliant, 3, i'd say, 2 inside the OP and one a bit from the OP walls.
Only owning members may enter UG: brilliant, this means some independant ShittyComms should be placed alongside with any new (or old) GRs in the wastes.
Stun Turds: remove the fargin' push back effect. Now.
Hack Intervals: 1 to 3 minute between hacks = excellent. Make it based on how well the "hack-game" was completed?
Hack: defending members could enter the hack-game from an UG ShittyComm against the attacking hacker, providing more nodes/pulses?
OPs: rework them. Please.
Ray has offered some good points. Others have done before as well. This turret-discussion is just one part of how OPs & OP-wars are flawed. Either way defending party should have the advantage, that's what the majority agreed on long ago, hence the GR changes, defenders repping to UG...
Make it possible to close down the UG, don't even relate it to Turret security or GR-security settings. Make the whole OP-war a sophisticated thing, not some "i r teh uber FPSer so i pwn u all and then take this OP".
What strikes me indeed is what KK did this time (again?). Just telling us they will not allow turrets and GMs will remove them. I will follow new implementations of rules or I will decide to cancel my account, but telling me I cannot do something and taking away the things I paid for.... fix the damn things, but don't ever decide these things based on some german discussion.
This official announcement once more makes me wonder..... dissapearing turrets in the OP itself (not UG)... is it a bug or are some evil GMs just removing them in favor of certain clans.
1. Enable owner to shut down UG.
2. close the hackroom (need hack too) to even come near the console, maybe even multiple barriers here too or need of very highskilled hackers -> maybe just hack 10 layers?)
3. more time between hacks
4. more exits for UG.
Thx for (not) listening KK.....
Also... I did not receive an ingame email telling me GMs would remove my expensive turrets. Ok, now we all wait.
How are the turrets a problem, you do not need to go into the underground to take over the op. Afterwards you simply place a stun and 1 or 2 gatlins up top by the ug entrance. You will have no more problems with them dam people that pops up from time to time.
this is seriously not a smart move.
i have respect for gms that have to endure what the community puts on their shoulders. But they shouldnt just ignore general oppinion o_O. After all it is us who are playing the game.
if this is about the germans demanding this or something. Please only do this on the german servers.
Tonight was my first OP fight since this new rule. I have to say that we have now gone right back to the old days of GR camping. This is terrible. The feature of allowing a clan to GR into their UG without synaptic impairment is now irrelevant.
I honestly think that a defending clan should have an opportunity to gather and prepare a defense. KK should consider my suggestion of locking the UG based on the OP's security settings. They should also increase the time between hacks to allow a clan time to gather and even contact allies. I really wish there was a mechanism in place for declaring allies and being able to set the security at an OP for “Clan and Allied Only.”
btw….I have been playing PS for a week now and it is pretty damn fun. You can walk an entire continent with 15-20 OPs and not have to zone once. OPs themselves are much bigger with lots of features. I fought for 2 hours last night to hold one OP but we eventually lost. It was intense.
Ray
One point you made I do not like from the original thread. That is that no one can enter the UG unless they are members of the clan, until it's hacked. People would exploit this very much.
Player A is getting his ass kicked. Player B, C, D, E, F, G are chasing after him and Player A has very little health left in him. He runs to the underground. Goes under. There's a PPU waiting for him with heals/buffs. Player A goes back up and the process repeats. It would honestly get tiresome to have to keep chasing Player A, and it reminds me of Pepper Park 1 too much.
It might make you tired to chase him around but it would also make OP fights last longer and be more intese because it wouldnt be just a 2 minute fight then you move to the next OP where the defenders dont come in time because they have to get imps put back in and gather up again and by the time they all do this you already have 3 or 4 of their other OPs so i think this is a great idea
Originally posted by Mankind
One point you made I do not like from the original thread. That is that no one can enter the UG unless they are members of the clan, until it's hacked. People would exploit this very much.
Player A is getting his ass kicked. Player B, C, D, E, F, G are chasing after him and Player A has very little health left in him. He runs to the underground. Goes under. There's a PPU waiting for him with heals/buffs. Player A goes back up and the process repeats. It would honestly get tiresome to have to keep chasing Player A, and it reminds me of Pepper Park 1 too much.
This is no different than what was happening for months when turrets where permitted in the UG. The enemy would not follow someone into the UG because a well placed stun turret would make it impossible to get out and the gats would rip them up.
If players B, C, D, E, F, and G are above ground then they simply need to finish hacking the OP and then they can go into the UG. This does not take long.
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