View Full Version : Turrets in UG
I was informed of this thread and pretty alarmed after I read it.
Here (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77224)
So because kk put ops/ug together badly and implimented ideas (gr to ug) without thinking through, we get the shaft. Once you remove our ability to drop turrets in the ug then the enemy will simply camp the spot, and omg we're back where we started! Now instead of campin the gr, we get killed right out of synch in the UG. Having turrets at least gave us a chance to gr into a secure area, but thanks to the way the ug works we get no warnings when ug turrets are destroyed. So now GM's are going to go around purging our turrets in the UG. Are we even going to get reimbursed for those? Turrent's aren't cheap.. even if you make them cheaply it's expensive in terms of manhours. *sigh*
PS. Yet another fun idea from the german community, which of course has kk's ear. I believe the germans are playing an entirely different game then we are. Hence why their suggestions often seem so ridiculous in context of our version of NC.
{MD}GeistDamnit
29-09-03, 21:51
why dont they just make this rule for the german server if they like it so much. like they did with belt drop's in war zones. :mad:
Fair point, but isn't it just a temporary measure until the patch comes which would then allow the placement of turrets in the underground still, except they switch allegiance after the op is taken?
hmm, hang on, that would be baad for the defenders wouldn't it lol, if you were down there and the turrets suddenly turned on you. Perhaps they will be deactivated for a time instead.
Shadow Dancer
29-09-03, 21:58
I don't see what the german community has to do with this.
:confused:
Anyways, I like this. I got sick and tired of certain clans spending literally up to a half hour in the UG sending a ppu out to res his clanmates and keep synching back into the UG when their debuffed. It was silly.
And like the above poster said, it's just temporary anyhow.
well the main problem is stun turrets next to the ladders out and not being able to zone out... getting stuck in corners etc... I will not get into clan bashing here however it is pointless, gets to the stage of stale mate, attacking clan up top, defending clan down below, nobody going either way, untill the attackers get bored, move on, defenders pop up and rehack the OP...
personally i think they should make it so that turrets can not be dropped near the zone point in the underground, that way attackers can go underground, defenders can put turrets around their spawn point to avoid camping of it. we know there is no synapse, however the camper will ALWAYS have the advantage here
now, it's not like we will get heard over this as the devs apparently dont know any english :rolleyes: and only really take ideas from the german forums... please PLEASE PLEAAASSSEEE get this thread to the attention of BlackIvory so he can see the view point of both communities
Shadow Dancer
29-09-03, 22:00
Um, maybe this is too much, but how about making an access panel to the ug? And the owning clan can set the password. So it'll be like an access lift to your apt, except it's to the UG.
You like?
IF they are making it so that the turrets switch over to the owners after the third hack that is BAAAD for the previous owners in the UG, will probably be a massacre...
Why not give the object removal tool from crytons a use, so that if your clan owns the OP use that tool and it repacks the turret and puts it back into your inventory...
how about that one?
You Like ?
I'd prefer having it so just stuns can be put there and not right by the entrance... so long as you're reasonably fast repping in you can gather a force and get out of the UG to defend.
And in case you didn't know, the ability to drop turrets in the UG is a 'bug' which they still haven't fixed...
KidWithStick
29-09-03, 22:15
while there at it they need to make turrets start shooting people as soon as theyre spoted...it takes up to like 30 seconds for a turret to start shooting someone...thats retarded
Originally posted by Carinth
....PS. Yet another fun idea from the german community, which of course has kk's ear. I believe the germans are playing an entirely different game then we are. Hence why their suggestions often seem so ridiculous in context of our version of NC.
if u look the germen thread you see that the majoryty of german players dont like it, too.
the only thing they did was makeing it official because allmost nobody know about that.
edit:
the original german thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76982) was brought up because a gamemaster cleared a clans underground and tell them it was an exploit to put them there.
No Point in Grin 2 UG now :mad: Cos now they can all buff n rush UG but the UG's got get out cos of barrels the Defneders are meant 2 have the advanatage not the damn dis-advantage
o_O
QuantumDelta
29-09-03, 22:21
I find it most ironic since in another thread we were told EXPLICITLY turreting the UG was allowed.
Whitestuff
29-09-03, 22:22
I think that when an OP is hacked turrets placed by the clan that lost the OP should just blow up, even the ones in the UG. Would that not solve the problem and give the GRing team defense at the same time?
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I find it most ironic since in another thread we were told EXPLICITLY turreting the UG was allowed.
there is a cool german term about that:"was interessiert mich mein geschwätz von gestern!"
Christ.
The underground not switching ownership bug has been around for months.
All you have to do is kill any hostiles remaining below, then once it's empty leave for 30 seconds to allow it to reset.
It's a minor inconvenience at best, rather than a showstopper.
So now ... KK decide that rather than wait for a proper fix to be coded, they will publish an ill-conceived and poorly thought out policy, and (possibly) fix it at some unspecified future point.
In terms of KK's "Soon [tm]" that could be anywhere from a fortnight till never.
This policy will lead *directly* to enemies camping the underground spawn points, and killing incoming people in sync, and totally negate the point of GR'ing to the underground.
Didn't this occur to you ? Even for a microsecond ?
Sometimes I *really* wonder what goes through their heads.
Syntax-Error
29-09-03, 22:26
i DONT see why anyone wud want the shitholes KK pass off as OPs anyway.
any turrets are.. a waste of time. if they have a PPU there immune.
Hi, so now me:
The info you get from his thread is already active for all servers I think, it was only because the german players haven't found a thread about this. Now there is the info-thread and this rule is only until the problem is fixed.
This is funny:
The german community always says KK is only hearing on the english community and you say KK is only hearing on the german community. :p
QuantumDelta
29-09-03, 22:49
Originally posted by Berserker
This is funny:
The german community always says KK is only hearing on the english community and you say KK is only hearing on the german community. :p
Actually it's not funny, I know about this situation, it's because people think KK isn't doing that much.
Even when they are, they don't relate about it, so the communities don't appreciate it.(As much as they should?)
Don't make me dig up the post where the community was told in a matter of fact fashion by an experienced member of the GM Team that turreting UGs is allowed.... :p
BlackIvory
29-09-03, 22:51
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I find it most ironic since in another thread we were told EXPLICITLY turreting the UG was allowed.
You mean the post of Forseti, formerly Mod of the official forum? (Mod have nothing to do with ingame support..)
Please tell me why have a word of a person who have nothing to do with ingame support more weight then a GameMaster who have to do with ingame support? :wtf:
I don't really know where he had his information but this was not, is not and will not be the way we handle bugs.
Cheers,
Black Ivory
To be fair we get our whines and ideas put in patches, they jsut aren't always explained through "the english community whined for a month" whereas the German ideas invariably are.
That said, this is a stupid idea. The UG gives the defenders a chance to organize which we didnt have before. We had a place to get ready while the attackers were always ready when we had a warning... we no longer have that. And if we can hack the op and they don't come out, then what the hell are they doing there?
Turrets in the UG don't help except at the beginning of war, to give the defenders some time, once the real fight is done its not much hassle to wipe up the remnants. KK have made another bad decision, it doesnt matter WHO they listen to, so lets not blame the germans, the ultimate responsibility lies with Reakktor.
CryptoChronic
29-09-03, 22:54
couldnt have put it better myself car
hmm well they may as well remove the ability to gr to your ops underground then, as it will be camped, you'll gr in only to be right in the middle of various holy APU barrels. tbh i wish you'd make your minds up as iirc a dev has said previously turrets in UG are fine.
congrats KK you fucked up again :rolleyes:
Originally posted by kurai
Christ.
The underground not switching ownership bug has been around for months.
All you have to do is kill any hostiles remaining below, then once it's empty leave for 30 seconds to allow it to reset.
It's a minor inconvenience at best, rather than a showstopper.
So now ... KK decide that rather than wait for a proper fix to be coded, they will publish an ill-conceived and poorly thought out policy, and (possibly) fix it at some unspecified future point.
In terms of KK's "Soon [tm]" that could be anywhere from a fortnight till never.
This policy will lead *directly* to enemies camping the underground spawn points, and killing incoming people in sync, and totally negate the point of GR'ing to the underground.
Didn't this occur to you ? Even for a microsecond ?
Sometimes I *really* wonder what goes through their heads.
READ THIS KK:mad:
QuantumDelta
29-09-03, 23:07
Originally posted by BlackIvory
You mean the post of Forseti, formerly Mod of the official forum? (Mod have nothing to do with ingame support..)
Please tell me why have a word of a person who have nothing to do with ingame support more weight then a GameMaster who have to do with ingame support? :wtf:
I don't really know where he had his information but this was not, is not and will not be the way we handle bugs.
Cheers,
Black Ivory
Fors was a GM previously as well................
He was one of the only people who were members of both teams.
The man asked in the GM Loungue then reported back.
I'm suprised you didn't know he was a GM -_-
BlackIvory
29-09-03, 23:11
He get only the GM-rights to handle the ingame forums.
This was his only job ingame, not support.
And I know him, so I know what he did ingame..
Black Ivory
QuantumDelta
29-09-03, 23:15
Heh, that in itself is a fair enough comment, I didn't know that (He told me GM and a Mod didn't say that :p).
Regardless, if you search through his posts you'll notice he was posting it as if it were fact because A) He double checked and B) He's normally sure of his facts...
more recently he actually explained himself that he states his comments as facts because most of the time he will check up with the powers that be first.
...Sigh.
Im glad they getting rid of turrets underground
Originally posted by joran420
Im glad they getting rid of turrets underground
guess who'll be camping the UG spawn? :rolleyes:
{MD}GeistDamnit
29-09-03, 23:27
Change OP's forever. The way they are now just sucks.I know the ammount of bsp in out zones is limited, but there has to be something that can be done to change op's as they are now.
Make op's real base structures with a little thought behind them, not the fenced in shit they are now.
The game would be a lot easier to balence if you did shit right from the get go :/
Once you remove our ability to drop turrets in the ug then the enemy will simply camp the spot, and omg we're back where we started! Now instead of campin the gr, we get killed right out of synch in the UG. Having turrets at least gave us a chance to gr into a secure area, but thanks to the way the ug works we get no warnings when ug turrets are destroyed.
PERFECT couldnt say it better myself i would really like some GM to awnser this. Whats the point of gr'ing to the ug now, might as well have just have made the clan go through the normal gr without SI. Sometimes KK i have no faith at all in you.
i doubt the GM will answer in any satisfactory fashion, tbh i dont think they care what we think, just IMO of course :)
QuantumDelta
29-09-03, 23:40
On further thought.
Gms should not be dictating ingame policy, I would rather have word from KK more to the point.
{MD}GeistDamnit
29-09-03, 23:51
read my thread on op changes, that will fix this op shit :D
KramerTheWeird
29-09-03, 23:55
When the patch first came up with gr'ing to UG, I was upset at certain clans for abusing the fact they can stay in UG forever and the turrets wont' transfer over. I called an exploit, they argued it was a feature. Personally I'm happy they are taking actions to remove this bug, but it doesn't seem very fair they are penalizing us on something we had nothing to do with. They should just let us use these until the patch shows up, as clans will and constantly abuse this regardless, at least in pluto.
Hmm.. Instead of Tht idea Read this. Perfect Just needs a little work.. From them mappers
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77252
guess who'll be camping the UG spawn?
why would we do that? we like a good fight as much as the next clan....this will just stop retards from hiding in the UG after thgey lost the battle
fer chrissakes people... you survived MONTHS of genrep camping, but now when they implemented this "genrep to UG"-thing, allowed turrets in there, and surprise! its bugged (go figure, we are playing a KK game here), you make it sound like its the end of the world. so you dont get to fully use this feature right now, until they fix it.
"OH NOOOOOOOO"
"MY LIFE! ITS RUINED!"
"DAMN YOU KK FUCKAZ!"
"HOW COULD YOU! IM CANCELING!"
get a grip, will ya o_O
just do like you did earlier and do your raids from a different genrep. it worked fine for MONTHS. and im PRETTY sure you will make it for another few weeks until this bug is fixed.
geez, and ppl wonder why KK doesnt listen... the same reason parents tend not to listen to kids yelling "I WANT I WANT I WANT, ALL OTHER KID GET WHY NOT ME BLAH BLAH BLAH YOU ARE THE WORST PARENTS EVER!".
*edit: bad spelling mistakes, onoz*
@ Tazo : Time to bestow the famous comment once more ...
The point <--------------- several miles ----------------> Tazo
The non-switching has been around since the GR to UG was introduced - it's not a new thing that's suddenly appeared out of nowhere.
Generep camping of OP GR by enemy clan was a problem from the start of retail - everyone hated it, everyone complained.
KK eventually got around to changing it about 8 months in.
Now owning clan could GR in (with no SI, as a bonus), and be able to protect their staging point with turrets, so they wouldn't be insta-ganked while syncing.
All good stuff, so far.
However - there was a problem ... the underground didn't switch when the OP was hacked if there was a person down there.
OK - no big deal - all you had to do was gather sufficient force to go down and sweep the UG, killing enemy and/or any turrets that you wanted to, then clear out and wait 30 seconds.
This way of fighting has been the norm since the OP GR changes were introduced, and it has been stated on these forums by Forseti and others, and ingame many times by GMs that UG turreting was explicitly allowed.
(@ BlackIvory: If you have a problem with that statement you should have corrected it at the time it was made - there's little point saying 3 months later that it was wrong and the person shouldn't be believed. It's KK/Mods/GMs responsibilty to ensure accuracy of statements from officials - *not* ours. It's poor communication like this that gets many people annoyed.)
Now KK (or GMs ?) suddenly decide to reverse this policy ... we are instantly back to the situation where the OP owning clan is GR'ing in to a hostile environment, and have thrown away a welcome change that had a minor problem to replace it with the old situation that had *everyone* annoyed, all the time.
@Black Ivory again: The community would appreciate an official statement from someone with STORM Bot status on this. Using your own argument re Forseti et al ... why should we believe your word as Support Coordinator any more or any less than another GM or Mod ?
turrets in UG are SO exploitable it's silly. you can get a line of turrets that stun and gattling you away form the ladder and roiund a corner before you've finished synching in it's madness
@ Tazo : Time to bestow the famous comment once more ...
The point <--------------- several miles ----------------> Tazo
lol
nail on the head
Yes we need turrets in the UG, it also gives either side a place to start their attacks from.
Perhaps banning stuns from UG's and only allowing gats.....
or perhaps you should look at real problems, such as people stun trapping UG doors which can cause fre's and can cause you to get totally stuck on a piece of bad modelling in an op
so many bugs - so little done
hang on i have an idea - put ur energy into fixing the pe problem before you start messing with ug's etc
Originally posted by Berserker
This is funny:
The german community always says KK is only hearing on the english community and you say KK is only hearing on the german community. :p
Actually, I came to the realization quite a while ago that they don't listen to either community on a regular basis, and that none of them actually play their own game on a regular basis, and that they have no clue, I mean absolutely clueless, about end-game PvP balance issues.
Originally posted by hivemind
Actually, I came to the realization quite a while ago that they don't listen to either community on a regular basis, and that none of them actually play their own game on a regular basis, and that they have no clue, I mean absolutely clueless, about end-game PvP balance issues. Fully agree.
What might be good is when the op is taken over the turrets start to slowly loose health, as a timer and can't be repaired.
Also new turrets can't be placed. This would mean the people in the underground have a limited time to aquire forces before attacking or sweeping the UG.
Also prehaps put in an exit GR in the UG. It doesn't allow you to GR anywhere except back to your apartment (as if you used a GR). This lets anyone who has GR into the UG retreat.
Originally posted by kurai
However - there was a problem ... the underground didn't switch when the OP was hacked if there was a person down there.
OK - no big deal - all you had to do was gather sufficient force to go down and sweep the UG, killing enemy and/or any turrets that you wanted to, then clear out and wait 30 seconds.
This way of fighting has been the norm since the OP GR changes were introduced, and it has been stated on these forums by Forseti and others, and ingame many times by GMs that UG turreting was explicitly allowed.
hmmmm kurai has never gone down to a UG where the stun turret behind hte ladder forces u into the wall so u can't move whislt the Gat+ art turrets + APU's kill you :o
Alot of clans bitched about this as quiet a few clans used exploits where they placed Stun turrets to trap you (where u are forced against a wall) and where u can't attack them ( behind a ladder/wall/box) so u had to dmg ur self to kill them
look its tempary stop bitching and jsut chill they didn't say turrets will never be allowed in the UG, they jsut said wait a patch.
Now if u can wait over 16? 17 weeks for Spy PA kuair i think the 2 weeks for this should be a dodle
It is not any community saying that this is a bug that has to be fixed, its only KK :rolleyes:
With that feature (thats what i call it) removed we are where we started and where fights happened in front of the GRs. And again no possibility to _defend_ a OP.
Adapt hacking time, change the access-rights to UG or do something else, but only to make the turrets switch at once is pretty senseless imho.
{MD}GeistDamnit
30-09-03, 03:39
FFS in stead of arguing look at my thread on fixing op's :(
Official response on this.
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?threadid=77224
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