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View Full Version : Biweekly Parashock Thread #8



Futureman
23-09-03, 21:19
I thought I would do Shadow Dancer a favor by starting it. Is SD really Arc? If so that would make a lot of sense, either that or they are kindrid spirits:lol:


Ok, well i've been doing a lot of thinking about PPUs and the whole idea and there are several screwed up things about PPUs and I have a few ideas of how I could solve them. Firstly PPUs shouldn't be invincible (And I have a PPU that i regularly enjoy playing). The idea of invincible players is certainly stupid, and can be exploited. Then there is the whole parashock issue, which to me is a problem, but that's a bit tougher to deal with. First of all, lets just deal with the ideas first:

What is a PPU? PPU means Passive, but really what could a ppu do that is passive anyway? If a ppu does anything to anyone else thats pretty much active if you ask me. If he is killing you directly with his Five slotted holy bolt or if he is buffing the APU that is killing you with a holy lighting he is doing something active. I think the true point of the PPU is to make a support class. Neocron is based on teamwork, and every class alone is lacking in some areas, and a PPU helps them fill those lacking areas. The whole monk idea has been somewhat convoluted from the start, at first there was this Exotic PSI use category, and then there were hybrids, and then there were only APU and PPUs.


Holy Paralysis? What is this for? Is it for the PPU to escape? Well it can be used that way, but its to make it easier for your team to kill the other team. Period. If you want to talk about making HP into something more defensive, you are missing the point. HP is a supporter spell. Now that's the way its supposed to be, but the way it gets used, well, that's crap. Paralysis kills pvp because the person is completely disarmed and completely helpless.

Well, i have an idea that would make things much better. Keep HP and all paralysis, but make HP no stronger than Paralysis Beam at the most, and also add in a "Drug Flash" effect.

Now before you all go flying off the hook, I have no idea about what the strength of Paralysis should be and what the strength of the flash should be. I think that's a balance issue. But at least it wouldn't prevent the Paralyzed person from being able to do anything. Basically HP as it is now: "Can't attack, can't get away" HP as I propose it. "Can't attack, Can get away" Again, the idea of HP is to make you enemy weaker, and I don't think KK wants to get rid of the basic idea here, but this would be, in my opinion the simplest way around it.

So what do you guys think? You are with a group, either PVPing, or in an OP war, or whatever, and you see the PPU pullout the HP, so you get hit, but instead of getting killed, you keep running and wait about 20 seconds for it to wear off, and you are back in action with little harm done. Or if you are in PP or something, then you can still possibly fight as it is easier to see up close with flash.

Other things. Bitch buffs. This is like Scikar said. Its just exploiting an unexpected part of a system, like hybrids. You know KK didn't intend for them to be used that way, but they won't get rid of it becasue they probably see it as a balancing factor for a flawed class. The choices are these: Don't bitch buff and fight an invincible PPU, Do bitch buff and fight a little weaking PPU. There needs to be a better way of making a PPU leave. I don't see it getting removed soon becasue there has to be a way to kill monks eventually. A PPU shouldn't be able to sustain the fire of 5 people for 5 minutes all the while trying to rez his teammates. I think there should be a sort of degredation of Shields when they are fired up for a certain period of time. If you want them back you should have to cast a spell that takes about as long as a Rez and drains almost the entire mana pool While no shields are active. This of course shouldn't apply in PVM, because then the caves would really suck that way. So my solutions?

Make HP more focused on Drug Flash, (and adjust Mana and cast speed to make it unspammable). Allow people to get away, and also make antishock drugs work.

Make Bitch buffs overwritable, but make the shields degrade until a spell recharge is done. Shields can only be recharged when they are down.

With these two elements, you'll have PVP much more fun again, and PPUs very hard to kill but not invincible. Imagine, you are in an OP war, and you see much less HP, except when you do, it doesn't mean death. If you do get paraed, you can still run and pop a drug to be back in action after five seconds, with close to 80 percent runspeed. So you finally kill their entire team, and the ppu won't leave. He constantly tries to rez. Then you break out the Gatlin cannons, and hammer him till his Shields wear down. If he tries to recharge them, then chose the apropriate weapon for whatever sheild he has down to recharge. He won't use the shield recharging mana to HP, because if he did he couldn't recharge shields. If he HPs more than two people, then he won't have much mana.

Bascially, you'll need to be a very good PPU to not get killed. So having to use a rez-like spell to recharge your shields will prevent him from rezing. So what do you guys think? And don't take everything at face value, I think there would of course be balance issues, but I like the ideas.

Omnituens
23-09-03, 21:45
this is where i usually post my 'Stop Whining' picture but since the mods are cracking down on spam/have no sense of humor, i wont.

if the mods were truly observant, they would see all these threads as spam as it is a REPEATED TOPIC.

KK will fix parashocks when they are ready.

but lower buffs SHOULD BE OVERWRITTEN by higher ones.your buffs idea is an interesting one, needs tweaking though

extract
23-09-03, 21:56
Originally posted by Futureman Firstly PPUs shouldn't be invincible

and theyre not...what gives people this rediculous idea that they are? I take damage when Im hit....I just have the ability to outheal people in a 1v1 situation


Originally posted by Futureman
If a ppu does anything to anyone else thats pretty much active if you ask me. if he is buffing the APU that is killing you with a holy lighting he is doing something active.

well for one there isnt passive psi use and active psi use its passive and aggressive.....according to you if we were to be catorgorized in either passive or active in order to be passive we would just have to pull up a chair and watch the action...hardly something to use for basis to argue


Originally posted by Futureman
Holy Paralysis? What is this for? Is it for the PPU to escape? Well it can be used that way, but its to make it easier for your team to kill the other team. Period.

I dont think anyone here would dispute that....I personally dont need it to escape Ive got spells to counter it...but say youre in the middle of a sector with nowhere to hide, zone, or genrep...it could slow someone down enough to get away(but these are extreme cases) I guess according to most its used to incapacitate youre enemy so that youre team can obliterate them(which I beleive is the reason it was put into the game...so whats the problem???)


Originally posted by Futureman
Well, i have an idea that would make things much better. Keep HP and all paralysis, but make HP no stronger than Paralysis Beam at the most

now thats something thats debateable, IMO holy para shocks a bit harder than beam but on neocron.ems.ru it states both beam and HP stun 80% for 35s, and the only difference is in the damage para beam does 70 enr and HP does 75 enr...so according to that site(which in most cases is very accurate) theyre almost exactly the same spell, which if thats the case youre idea wouldnt change much would it =P

FBI
23-09-03, 22:28
It's called Anti-Buff, but only apu monks can use it. Why don't we
all start with this idea and move on. How can we make other classes
take away the shields of a PPU monk?

Melee weapons to break through them. One time use weapons
that take a long time to shoot but cripple shields on monks.

Whatever, start with that idea and move on. Let's not nerf anything,
let's give other classes a chance.

FBI

Shadow Dancer
23-09-03, 22:31
"boost other classes, don't nerf"


This phrase can only go a certain distance before it becomes silly and untrue.


Look at the overpowered hybrids of "old". I don't even want to imagine the nightmare PvP would have become if KK tried to boost all the other classes to a level where they would have been able to compete.


Anyways, I firmly believe parashock needs to be removed or cost 150 mana or so.


I think spies should get buff *ignoring* weapons. That way the apu would still be unique.


I R smrt

:p

Lucjan
23-09-03, 22:43
I wonder what would happen if all freeze weapons would be made into anti weapons based on the following scheme:

low weapon (i.e. A&W ‘Snowflake’ Freezer) = Anti Deflector
medium weapon (i.e. Arctic Winter' Freezer) = Anti Shield
high weapon (i.e. Tangent ‘Ice Age’ FZ-31b Freezer) = Anti Heal
rare weapon (Thunderstorm) Antibuff

Sure, weapon's TLs should be higher like equal to the TLs of the spell their function they take. A charge time (or a insane low RoF) is a must too.

That way every class would have weapons to work against buffed enemies as well as PPUs with spies and melee tanks being to only ones to antibuff on the same level as APUs as there is rare freezer pistol for PEs and the Thunderstorm is too high in TL, same goes for tanks.

I'd really like to see them on TS to get an idea how it would work out...

KidWithStick
23-09-03, 22:52
SD isnt arc:rolleyes: :D :rolleyes:


(h4x)

poop
24-09-03, 05:56
I play a ppu on pluto.

Now, from what i gather from the forums, holy paralysis is detested mostly because of its effect in pvp on run speed and turn speed.

I personally do no think that paralysis should be removed from the game.

Paralysis and parashocks in general are support spells. They are designed to assist the attackers in pvp.

Run speed effects are ok, in my opinion.

However, turn-speed effects may need to be decreased. (i can see where projectile weapon users - mainly tanks - are coming from concerning this, but it personally doesn't bother me...maybe because i'm a monk AND am used to low sensitivity first person shooters? )

Mana usage of high level parashocks needs to be increased dramatically. Maybe not quite to 150, but somewhere around 100.

Given the mana increase, RoF of the high level para's still needs to be decreased (maybe to the same frequency as a capped damage boost)...my psi pool is around 350? so after 4 shocks (100 mana) from full psi with a booster 3 rof would gimp itself.

Now in a 2v1, 1v1 situation with these changes, a victim *should* be able to take antishock drugs (yes, maybe more than one..i do not have much experience with these drugs, so feel free to comment), fight back, and still have a decent chance at running away, Allow room for a little tweakage, and please try to see where i am coming from...
(even though i think running around alone without a ppu should make you an easy target)

In op war/2v2+ battle situations, these changes leaves the ppu with the ability to shock 3-5 different people before tending to his wounded.

If you are in a group of 2 or more, you most likely have a ppu with you. If you do not, you are killable by any group with a ppu. This is as it should be. A ppu is a *vital* SUPPORT class.

In all the parashock discussions i have read (not anywhere near all of them), i have not encountered a single mention of that one spell...antiparalyse. Yes, antiparalyse. As it stands, holy antiparalyse has a decent rof. The ppu has been given the ability to give the shock and to take it away, although not as quickly. A decent ppu should be able to recognise his group member has been shocked and proceed to unshock him. Support role.

A ppu with antipara could counter a ppu with para given the proper tweaks to both spells. Increase mana + decrease rof for para.....increase mana + rof for antipara.
Perhaps antipara could even be made much more spammable than para, giving an inherent "aggression penalty" to the parashock. (same thing for damage boost...? off topic =p)

I like the agressive side of parashocks. Gives a ppu something to look forward to at the end of the day. I have been a pure ppu since level /20...when they did away with hybrids i lommed...

Can you ppu's out there imagine what ppu'ing would be like without parashocks/damage boost to get out some of that agression...it would be like leveling in the graves or by killing doy bots ALL THE TIME...heal ..heal sanctum ..shelter ..deflector ..haz 3 ...heal sanctum ...heal ..antidote...antidote...antidote...heal...heal...heal...shelter...deflector...heal...heal....heal... ......heal..................heal......................heal.........................

Well, those are my views...please comment/criticize away, but please do not spam...this is after all my first post :)

poop
24-09-03, 06:24
hmm...i missed futureman's ideas on the shields...

why not make ppu's damn near unkillable?

shields are fine in my opinion.

if there are 5 people available to shoot a standing still ppu for 10 seconds to prevent him from rezzing, why can't those 5 people shoot the fallen player once he is rezzed? he should fall within 2 seconds if you dont screw up.

why is there no apu around to deshelter/de-deflector and/or de-heal this stationary ppu? you don't need holy antibuff to rape a ppu.

the balance to the ppu is in the apu. any high level apu can unbuff a ppu as needed. no properly unbuffed rezzing ppu will live for long.

yep..

Berzerker
24-09-03, 09:30
Para shock is fine for what it is suposed to do, and that is freeze peaple up. The problem with it though, it can easely kill a Spy or a Apu Monk. That is a load of Bollox. The damage it does should be taken away completly.

Scikar
24-09-03, 10:34
Things that need to change:

1) Parashock should have less range. Often the first sign that you are being ganked is not the sound of a CS ripping you up, or a Lib, or a HL, it's a parashock. 3v1 and the 1 guy is parashocked before he's even aware of the 3 attacking him. That sucks.

2) Mana cost should be increased, to prevent spam. Also reduce RoF a little, but certainly no less than shelter/def (52/min).

3) Shock effect should be reduced, but can be stacked 3 times to increase the effect. With mana cost somewhere around 50, that means 150 mana assuming you hit each time, to get a shock equal to current level of holy para. One shock would only be a minor effect, 2 not so bad, so in this case anything from a small fight to a large fight won't consist of 6 parashocked players shooting each other supported by 2 ppus running around at light speed.

Lucjan
24-09-03, 11:40
Originally posted by poop
the balance to the ppu is in the apu. any high level apu can unbuff a ppu as needed. no properly unbuffed rezzing ppu will live for long.


Correct. But this still leaves us with the current problem that you see only APUs and PPUs in OP fights as only these are effective due to this "balance".

Imagine everybody would have an APU, tank, PE and Spy, which one would he choose to take part in OP warfare...Ive spend some time talking to people after OP fights last week and the answer to my question was almost always the same: I just have tank/PE/spy and I dont want to reroll, otherwise you'll see me as APU around here. Very often followed by "but Im thinking about getting another account". Great...

Futureman
24-09-03, 18:32
Im not whining about parashock, as I have a PPU Monk, btw. And also, to the guy who says that Beam and HP are different, all i know is that when I Beam someone, it doesn't slow them down that much. I have a PPU like i said earlier, and I think that under most situations they are unkillable. I can normally stay alive in most situations. The only time i die is from a bitch buff. Granted my char hasn't seen TOO much action, but he has seen some, and i can see a capped PPU being much more powerful than me.