View Full Version : Tanks... decent offence, medium defence, PE's better, that aint right o.O
okies,
I now have a near cap tank (only CON to go after my Lomming addiction :( ) and a capped pistol PE, and when fighting solo my pistol PE does near to the same damage as my tank and can take alot more punnishment due to shelters and buffs that a PE has access to. IMO PE's are balanced, and that Tanks are actually under powerd when compared to other classes.
Look at tanks, they are made to be fighters, yet as the other thread state's, they aint very good at it when compared to the damage output of a APU and the damage that a PE can take etc. IMO that aint right. Tank's should be feared, they should be the last one's standing as their 'ard bastards that are made to fight, not the alst one's standing because the enemy concertrates on the actual threat's at OP wars first o_O!
Tank's do have good damage output, CS is a great weapon, The can also take a fair ammount of damage compared to other classes WHEN UNBUFFED, yet other classes (PE's and PPU's) Have crazy buffs, and a APU is generally with either a PPU or a PE for buffage anyway o_O then things go down hill as a lone tank cant kill a PPU, a lone tank cant kill a APU buffed by a PPU a lone tank can kill a buffed PE but its kinda 50/50, depends on who's playing them.
Anyways, to the point lol... Ive started a APU monk now (pfft fking monkacron made me :() and I was looking at the armour that monk's have, SHIT ME that armour is sick at high levels, and IMO altho monks NEED the armour, plus it makes sence for them to have it, when the hell is a tank stuck with fire armour/energy armour. thats bollocks, INQ 4 as a full set is like a asbestos suit, yet pierce/fprce is rapeage, everyone know's that mixed tank armour's the best setup to go with. However IMO Tank's DONT need new guns or toys or any of that shit, they need decent armour. Like the topish levels of PSI armour with req's of say 100-105 STR, hell make em fking rares from tech parts I dont care, but tank's need armour that adds to more than 1 main resist.
Anyone agree? Or have some other suggestions ?
Q`alooaith
22-09-03, 14:23
read my PA thread, I've had similar idea's...
yea, tank's are one of the best shock fighters about, as long as everyone don't know they are going to be fighting then tank's are pretty good, unbuffed they can tank any class, as long as the other party is unbuffed too..
QuantumDelta
22-09-03, 14:30
o_O
Uhm.
Not sure how to appraoch this.
You're comparing the PvM side of it, to start with.
Lemme tell ya, PvP and PvM are totally different, I know you know that but still;
with the burst bonus in PvP TPC/CS is far more effective than Lib or BS.
BS has, evened the odds a lot, however someone using a good resist set, a good speed set and a good attack setup on a tank, will generally exceed any PE if they have the same level of player skill, no matter how the PE is skilled.
I know this for a fact, from experience.
So do most other PEs.
In PvM, the Pistol PE is unrivaled, that's very true, the only thing that comes close is the Rifle PE.
PEs have better defence, however, when you compare the maximum viable offence of the PE to the Tank, you will find why there is balance.
The Tank far exceeds the offence of the PE, to the extreme.
If it were not for the defence of the PE, there would be a lack of balance.
This is why most people have been saying "The classes are as close to balance as they have ever been."
......sigh.
After fully reading that I would say that the 76% cap ...making that easier to reach is fine.
However, over that, is making it hard to find any form of balance....
Q`alooaith
22-09-03, 14:32
except for monk's which have always stood out and been either weak, strong or overpowered to the extream...
QD I love playing my PE as he is a ''solo'' class, my Tank can also be solo, however the second someone becomes buffed or whateva from a PPU Then theres no point, even PE Buffs on a APU is enough to keep him alove while he slaps me around with Holy Lightning.
Tanks are fighters, they _should_ have powerfull weapons, which they have, and they _shouls_ have some of the best armours around, at the moment Monk's have the best armour, monk's in the extreme have the best offence and defence (seperately as APU/PPU, I aint no fking newb before you bite out at that statement)
A Tank is a fighter, cant do shit all else but gimp runspeed ALOT and take mid level repair, no point to that. Iv been soloing a hell of a lot more people more succesfully with my PE and his trusty lib&BS.
Ultima Power Suit XX Blah De blah
Make it take all the armour slots so it's like a full powersuit and make it give a good balance of all the resists and some hc and nerf on whatever you'd nerf.
it should be like rare and drop of some boss, i dunno like a cs wielding Y Rep Hybrid thing wearing the suit thats like 120/120 :p
I am seeing less n less tanks and many more monks and pe's so even if there isn't something majorly wrong it would seem a-lot of tanks are feeling something wrong... which probably does mean there's something wrong :p
QuantumDelta
22-09-03, 14:43
as long as tanks never get shelter...or a good freezer....or damage boost....i'll be fine.....i think......
btw, for PVM the Pistol PE is(Was?) surpassed only by the hybrid.
Been like that for a very, very long time....
It's why I couldn't stand not being a pistol pe, i'm self-sufficient, even use my own buffs in op fights half the time.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
as long as tanks never get shelter...or a good freezer....or damage boost....i'll be fine.....i think......
btw, for PVM the Pistol PE is(Was?) surpassed only by the hybrid.
Been like that for a very, very long time....
It's why I couldn't stand not being a pistol pe, i'm self-sufficient, even use my own buffs in op fights half the time.
Exactly, same here, my PE's self sufficient, take on any mob, hell can nearly solo the chaos cares, probably could if I wasnt so cocky half the time :p anyway, try doing that with a tank o_O yea fking right. Pure blooded fighter outdone by citizen joe o_O
Give tanks decent Armour comparable to PSI Armour, eg with Xray and Fire resist aswell as energy resist, maybe tone down the energy bonus and bump up the force/pierce.
Q`alooaith
22-09-03, 14:48
But PE's are meant to be the main class in this game, your meant to see a great many PE's about..
monk's your not meant to see a great number off, but stilla few..
Tanks, same as monk's they anit the average joe normal..
Spy's, your not meant to see them often, but they are there..
Pop should be 40% PE's, 20% Monk's 20% Tank's, 20% spy's...
So we're starting to see what was intended... Maybe the Monk's will get nerfed again (maybe? lol)...
/edit
Ahhh, but you miss the point of tanks.. they can have mega armor in one area, you can resist energy very well, you can resist fire very well, and with viper king, posion's not too bad...
Tank's have to go into one armor type fully to get a good deal out of it..when hunting fire mob's do you wear PA and duranium 4? no you change to inq armor..
IMHO Tank's should get more specialised armor to suit diffrent defensive types..
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 14:51
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
even use my own buffs in op fights half the time.
Me too. PPUs allways seem to ignore me. :p
QD is right, PvP wise tank vs. PEs IS balanced atm.
The offensive capacity of the CS/SG is insane, even with the buffs that PEs can use, we have to move like crazy fuckers to even stand a chance in a fight.
It's why I couldn't stand not being a pistol pe, i'm self-sufficient, even use my own buffs in op fights half the time.
i think that is just obvious aint it ?
A high slotted blessed deflector and a high slotted shelter should in theory be better than a 50% nerfed ppu shelt/def as PE's get 100% efficiency from their own spells ?
Or have i missed something ?
Andy
edit\
The offensive capacity of the CS/SG is insane, even with the buffs that PEs can use, we have to move like crazy fuckers to even stand a chance in a fight.
and your point is ?
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 14:57
That Tanks vs PEs is balanced, as I said O_o (offensively you could say tanks are too powerfull (by a weeney eeney bit) but I won't say that)
QuantumDelta
22-09-03, 15:00
No, PPU Buffs are still superior by about a factor of 1.75ish %.
I just prefer to be able to look after myself, and I prefer to be less strain on the PPU, especially when I am, as a Pistol PE, one hundred percent ineffective in an op fight.
The "And your point" comment, shows your bias.
The only way for a pistol pe to beat an even semi-decent tank is to work their fucking fingers to the bone.
Tanks are spoilt little brats they always have been and they always will be.
Especially now you can just smell the PPU Death in the air, the hybrids are gone and the APU "Adjustments" that have been promised.
edit;
too late.
I said it.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
hell can nearly solo the chaos cares
my tank has solo`d the lvl 2 ones a couple of times when i was lvling it up
it aint impossiable just hard.
bring lots of aoe damage too
I totally think that Modable Armour should be implemented.
When i say that i don't mean that people can construct armour and try for slots.
You would buy it with either 1, 2 or 3 slots for modding. Maybe the three slot armour could be a rare.
I think this gives you a wider range and freedom to wear what you want.
In my opinion it may also give more balance.......
Q`alooaith
22-09-03, 15:12
Originally posted by garyu69
I totally think that Modable Armour should be implemented.
When i say that i don't mean that people can construct armour and try for slots.
You would buy it with either 1, 2 or 3 slots for modding. Maybe the three slot armour could be a rare.
I think this gives you a wider range and freedom to wear what you want.
In my opinion it may also give more balance.......
read my thread about PA's, lowest with two slots, but no skill's boost, still the mainskill's malus and bonus though... so you could get pretty good armor on even the low ones, but without any stat boost#'s.
I think PEs and Tanks are about even pvp. No pe but kramer has beaten my tank, and even so, it was even, I won some he won some. Im totaly outta practice atm with tanks, but if someone really wants i can train a bit with my tank and then see how I do vs a good PE.
Also, CS is just so good compaired to pes weapons... when u get a hit with Lib burst or something its like, great whatever, but when u hit with a CS burst and see a 50 go up, maybe 1/7 of a normal pes hp, thats a major blow.
my tank has solo`d the lvl 2 ones a couple of times when i was lvling it up
it aint impossiable just hard.
it is possible to solo the caves on most chars, i have solo'd on my rifle PE, TANk and even APU as of last week when it was eaqrly morning and nobody to bother me, although it did take ages.
Andy
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 15:34
Originally posted by VetteroX
Also, CS is just so good compaired to pes weapons... when u get a hit with Lib burst or something its like, great whatever, but when u hit with a CS burst and see a 50 go up, maybe 1/7 of a normal pes hp, thats a major blow.
Using a judge is even more silly. You have even less hp (no MOVEON) and without piercing dmg the tanks insane resists soak up everyting you chuck at him. Assuming a judge burst hits him with both shots, I do about 40-50 dmg. thats les than 10% of a tanks hp. Add the swirl of combat and beating a CS tank is just a fight to stay out of his LoS, and not to let them get a lock on, and trying to whittle him down.
//edit Ignore me I know nothing.
But PE's are meant to be the main class in this game, your meant to see a great many PE's about..
monk's your not meant to see a great number off, but stilla few..
Tanks, same as monk's they anit the average joe normal..
Spy's, your not meant to see them often, but they are there..
Pop should be 40% PE's, 20% Monk's 20% Tank's, 20% spy's...
i agree, but right now on saturn its 60% monks, 15 % PE, 10% tank, 15%spy
Q`alooaith
22-09-03, 15:59
Originally posted by Style
i agree, but right now on saturn its 60% monks, 15 % PE, 10% tank, 15%spy
yea, that's why Monk's need to be nerfed too hell..
I think all classes should be judged Vs the PE, not the tank, monk or spy, but Vs the PE..
Nerf the monks.... again..
How does an experienced Tank get wiped by an experienced PE?
Tank has 100 con, 100 strength right (checks even after a year
of playing the class) hmm?
How does a jack of all trades wimp kill a custom breed fighter
who has the strength to knock walls over and take more pain
than arnold schwarzenegger?
You've got me. Tanks are on par with spies now atleast. :rolleyes:
Couldn't beg me to play my tank again until they fix the PA, soften
the betaretail nerfs and make it a viable class once again for
combat, not for a CON leveling tradeskiller.
FBI
I think we should wait for the kami chips, if they take just armour value away, tanks are gonna be in for some fun :)
appart from i need like 3 more ip slots
KidWithStick
22-09-03, 16:42
all except for the part where you said make them from rares:rolleyes:
And what would better armour do?
Originally posted by KimmyG
And what would better armour do?
[edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming]
read my post, atm tanks have energy armour OR fire armour. Nothing apart from +5 Xray, and you have to mix your fire and energy armour around. Look at PSI armour, would you not like that on your tank? A tank's made for fighting, he's meant to have above average offence and defence, atm he has 'average' defence, The damage output is good for a tank, the defence isnt great as a PE can get better due to CON/Armour/Shelter setups. See my point now?
oh and kimmy, i know you and the way you post, please do not bring this thread down by saying shit like i should get some skillz or that I should learn how to setup a tank. My tanks 10 months old, i know how to fuckin play a tank, i know how to setup a tank. i know that PE's are just as good, no, better than tanks, for solo fights and generally playing the whole game solo. I know that the way ive got my tank's CON and Armour setup is pretty damn good. so please dont go there by saying this threads here because I have a shite setup and your all ubar etc. at the end of the day, you have a PPU stapled to your ass, so you probably havent noticed that a tank's armour's pretty shitty...
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
]
Nothing apart from +5 Xray, and you have to mix your fire and energy armour around.
Ironic.....when you think a tank was genetically bred to fight Energy/Xray creatures......
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 16:57
Originally posted by LTA
Ironic.....when you think a tank was genetically bred to fight Energy/Xray creatures......
Exactly, they were bred to fight energy/xray creatures. Hense use your CON. (and your head :p)
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 16:59
The problem isn't lack of armor. The problem is how armor works compared to how shelter/deflector works.
Armor should be made more effective than shelters and deflectors. Shelters and deflectors should just be icing on the cake, not the fucking cake itself. As it is, armor means diddly fuck all. You get yourself a holy shelter and a holy deflector and you're god even in your birthday suit. What should you do then?
Here's what. First off, crank up the damage blocking cap of armor. Then change shelter and deflector so they no longer further reduce damage %. Instead of reducing damage percentage, they would be like a whole seperate set of hitpoints. The higher the TL of the shelter/deflector, the more damage the shelter/deflector can absorb before going byebye. Mind you, this wouldn't block all damage from hitting you. A certain amount of damage would still leak through even with the shelter/deflector active, but it would be very very small. The higher the deflector/shelter, the less damage would get through while they are active.
Shelters and deflectors are supposed to be temporary defensive options. Currently, they are simply refreshed everytime they drop in such a way as to essentially be always active. The PSI pool hit therefore is neglegible. When under constant fire, you shouldn't be able to maintain that kind of defense for long. Hell, as it is, you can't kill a PPU unless he fucks up.
OK here you go, 114 being the max CON resist
Dribbler, my tank has 114 CON Xray Resist, plus a pissy 5 from his belt. He has 114 Energy resist plus whatever from armour and this is ontop of around 80 fire resist. I wear mixed INQ and Dure as every tank does.
He's got a good setup, my tanks pretty damn fast aswell. Health's around the 470 mark unbuffed. And I can also hold myself well in a fight while im on my own, however if you just fucking look at each classes role for 1 fking second, how the fuck does a PE have the same, sometimes better defences that a damned tank.
PEs health, armor and con resists are no way near what tanks have, their defence comes from the shelter, and their runspeed. Still, a good tank beats a good PE, and this game is all about combat. If tanks are supposed to be better then give PEs and Spies more toys.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 17:09
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
O
Dribbler, my tank has 114 CON Xray Resist, plus a pissy 5 from his belt. He has 114 Energy resist plus whatever from armour and this is ontop of around 80 fire resist.
Resists that a PE can never hope to get.
I only just manage 115 energy/fire/xray total armour because of the resist/armour/buff/drug setup that I use.
But I don't want to get into tanks being 'easy' to setup CON wise.
Unless the 114 resist cap is removed, PEs will have tank lvl defenses or more.
//edit WEEE!! Rade = winnah
tbh I'm getting pissed off with all these "PE's are gods among men killing any tank who gets in their way" threads.
Oh dear did your tanks start getting killed by PE's? Well I have been playing a PE since start of retail and this is the closest to a class balance that we have ever come to. To me it seems that you are saying "Oh we are genetically bred warrirors we should always kick the average joe's ass every time". Oh yeah sure that fits into the storyline great, shame that that would fuck the game up and make it alot less fun. :rolleyes:
Also tanks aren't the "elite", they are the grunts, the footsoldiers. They work as part of a team (or army). If you have a solid wall of tanks at an OP fight not much will break through it, with your defences greatly increased by PPU's and your pretty damn good damage.
I agree with QD that tanks are, in general, spoilt brats.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 17:14
Originally posted by Judge
Oh dear did your tanks start getting killed by PE's? Well I have been playing a PE since start of retail and this is the closest to a class balance that we have ever come to.
Exactly. Most Tank vs. PE fights I have seen/partaken in since the last few patches have been very close or decided by the players skill in PvP in general.
Originally posted by Rade
PEs health, armor and con resists are no way near what tanks have, their defence comes from the shelter, and their runspeed. Still, a good tank beats a good PE, and this game is all about combat. If tanks are supposed to be better then give PEs and Spies more toys.
You know I play a PE, Wheres the ''If tanks are meant to be better give PE's and Spy's more toys '' ?!?!?! and the PE's dont have the CON but they have shelter, well looking at those, youve admitted that a PE has the same defences as a tank due to the shelter. a Tank's a fucking fighter, he cant take 110 hacking like a PE etc, a tank is pure fighting, nothing else. When joe fking bloogs from the pepper hood can get the same resists to damage as a fucking brick shithouse with a ton of armour on. Does that sound totally right to you ?!?
Originally posted by Judge
tbh I'm getting pissed off with all these "PE's are gods among men killing any tank who gets in their way" threads.
Oh dear did your tanks start getting killed by PE's? Well I have been playing a PE since start of retail and this is the closest to a class balance that we have ever come to. To me it seems that you are saying "Oh we are genetically bred warrirors we should always kick the average joe's ass every time". Oh yeah sure that fits into the storyline great, shame that that would fuck the game up and make it alot less fun. :rolleyes:
Also tanks aren't the "elite", they are the grunts, the footsoldiers. They work as part of a team (or army). If you have a solid wall of tanks at an OP fight not much will break through it, with your defences greatly increased by PPU's and your pretty damn good damage.
I agree with QD that tanks are, in general, spoilt brats.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ] but I fking play a PE aswell, my PE's alot more fun to play than my tank, you know why? Because my PE can solo just about anyone, depending if I get the first attack or whatever, with my tank, what is there to do? Hunt fire mob's or just wander around looking for people to kill that havent got a PPU with them...
A PE can self buff and shelter, even upto Heat/Haz 1 with 1 drug. With decent player behind the PC with a decent setup is a very tough opponent (as is anyclass tho), Can heal pretty fast, Has stealth 1.
A Tank can cast a heal that's as usefull as ramming salt in a paper cut, can cast HC1 just about with his psi pool, does have better armour and resists but has no shelter which is a godsend to PE's. A tank also has a fking barge on his shoulder, slows em down, blocks half their view if in 1st person view.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 17:19
Tanks defense is physical
PE defense is speed and their ability to use PSI.
In a straight shoot-out doing the same dmg to each other the tank will win, he simply has better resists and a shit-ton more hp (you said 470 hp unbuffed, seems a little low tbh)
They are different sytles of fighting, you can't compare the two directly.
It seems right in the game fenix, you said it yourself in the kami chip thread
give droners some lovin, its a damn game, RPG or no RPG, its a bloody game...
Its a bloody game, yeah so having a tank beat a PE every time would be great fun right?
Oh and can everyone stop thinking that all god damn PE's are pistol. A rifle PE can not ever in a thousand years (except with new kami chips possibly) get 110 hack and not be gimped completely.
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 17:20
Well I skipped the thread.
[edited for violation of the forum rules - baiting]
First of all there are alot of apus out there who go solo, secondly even if every apu CHOSE to go with a pe/ppu that doesn't mean you can compare tank to apu+soemone else. That's just dumb man. Comparing 1 class to 2?
:rolleyes:
Thirdly, our armor is uber but our con isn't. Notice how our armor is uber but we still die fast. Only person with worse defense is a spy. Third you complain about us dealing more damage than a tank? errr ok. That's the way it's supposed to be, otherwise what would be the point of our class?
The only complaint you have that I agree with(I even made a thread about it a few days ago, do a search) is that PEs can get tank defense or better and that's not fair. Also an apu's defense "problem" is a "almost" negated in op wars due to a ppu's buffs(the ppu's buffs ok?).
ANyways I do think tanks need something, just not sure what yet.
So shadow, what you are saying is that as PE's we have lower attack, and we should have lower defence as well?
That would be real fun wouldn't it.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 17:24
tbph PEs have the lowest attack capabilities of the fighting classes (no offence PPUS :D)
We need the best defence of the fighting classes no?
Original monk
22-09-03, 17:27
ressurect the tank, and give tanks 3 stars again, and some decent new PVP weapons, and no AoE no, neat good PvP weapons, only suited for killing people and havin extreme damage and crazy frequency...
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 17:34
Originally posted by Judge
So shadow, what you are saying is that as PE's we have lower attack, and we should have lower defence as well?
That would be real fun wouldn't it.
Don't put words into my mouth, that's lame. Currently out of KINDNESS i don't think KK should nerf pe defense, i think they should increase the resist cap for tanks.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
tbph PEs have the lowest attack capabilities of the fighting classes (no offence PPUS :D)
We need the best defence of the fighting classes no?
It's a bit strange the JOAT character has better defense than a genetically engineered human made for destruction. O_o
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 17:36
Merely a comment about balance.
Besides RP wise (and game-wise really) Tanks have no capacity for PSI, ther ONLY thing that raises the PE above them defencivly.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
]
[edited for consistency]
read my post, atm tanks have energy armour OR fire armour. Nothing apart from +5 Xray, and you have to mix your fire and energy armour around. Look at PSI armour, would you not like that on your tank? A tank's made for fighting, he's meant to have above average offence and defence, atm he has 'average' defence, The damage output is good for a tank, the defence isnt great as a PE can get better due to CON/Armour/Shelter setups. See my point now?
oh and kimmy, i know you and the way you post, please do not bring this thread down by saying shit like i should get some skillz or that I should learn how to setup a tank. My tanks 10 months old, i know how to fuckin play a tank, i know how to setup a tank. i know that PE's are just as good, no, better than tanks, for solo fights and generally playing the whole game solo. I know that the way ive got my tank's CON and Armour setup is pretty damn good. so please dont go there by saying this threads here because I have a shite setup and your all ubar etc. at the end of the day, you have a PPU stapled to your ass, so you probably havent noticed that a tank's armour's pretty shitty...
You wanna know what more resists in armour will do? Not a god dam thing. On average I take 75 from a slag of 4 from a CS fir or xry hits now I have cranked resists in one area and there is zero improvement. I have also cranked perice and with a mad boost in perice armour I saved my self 4 hit points from a PE. So I think there is something a little more fuxored on tanks resists than just getting a nice set of resist points from armour.
My point is armour only goes so far in my opinion the defference maker is the shelter not the armour points.
Arc, im just having a bad day :p
Look, I said its a game yea... Altho in that thread it's a case of ''onoz droners got enough toys cant give em a kami, doesent suit them.'' o_O!
Anyway forget that thread.
Back to this one, Arc, APU Can do rediculous damage, generally if a APU gets the first attack in from behind someone, their dead by the time they have turned around and got to within a decent range of you, you know that arc so dont pull that shit here. a Tank has to be on your face to fight you, the range of a CS is pathetic but I like up close combat. Can a tank do that ? possible, if their AFK and you either have the time to run right upto them and ram your CS in their crevice or to spam with AOE, yet everyone has the speed to run from a tank cause a cannon slows him down alot (not moaning about that either) What I am moaning about, is that IF you put each class in a ring with one of the other classes, PPU would be unkillable alone, APU would be the fastest to kill anyone else, PE and Tank would have the best duel between them. Does this not point out that either A)Boost the tank or B) nerf the APU (Personally im pissed with nerfs, so boost the other fking classes, dont nerf)
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 17:48
Game balance is (ignoring random dmg, but then I don't know enough about that) atm very good.
PEs are of little use RP-wise, monks and tanks still carry the day in OP-fights. PvP wise things are nice, Don't fuxxor things now :)
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 17:51
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Arc, im just having a bad day :p
Look, I said its a game yea... Altho in that thread it's a case of ''onoz droners got enough toys cant give em a kami, doesent suit them.'' o_O!
I never said droners have enough toys, I said they don't DESERVE kami chip.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Back to this one, Arc, APU Can do rediculous damage, generally if a APU gets the first attack in from behind someone, their dead by the time they have turned around and got to within a decent range of you, you know that arc so dont pull that shit here. )
The only person I can kill from behind "before they turn around" is the spy. Please stop fenyx with your damn exaggerations. You're gonna have to post some real facts and arguements and not just stick to exaggerated views if you wanna convince people of anything.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
APU would be the fastest to kill anyone else,
BS. It depends on who attacks him. You wanna see a fast death? Look at a monk getting hit by an explosive liberator.
And your only valid issue is range, and apu range is being reduced justifiably so.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Does this not point out that either A)Boost the tank or B) nerf the APU
Why the fuck would an apu deserve a boost when he's supposed to outdamage the tank?
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
monks and tanks still carry the day in OP-fights.
You dont see people scream "Omg we dont have a tank online?????? WERE FUCKED. Lets just forget it."
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 17:54
Originally posted by Duder
You dont see people scream "Omg we dont have a tank online?????? WERE FUCKED. Lets just forget it."
lol too true. Only monks are needed. Sadly. :(
it was alot more balanced when most people were hybrids :)
there were less pure monks and just an elite few of us
now theres no hybrids and easy to play monks are here everyones stopped being a tank/spy/pe etc and gone for a pure monk where theyre combat effective/required and incrediably easy to setup.
monks are the new no brainer class hense the lack of tanks on servers
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 18:01
I disagree hinch, hybrids were vastly overpowered. So it was just as bad as before.
Maybe making all monks hybrids and balancing them that way will fucking FINALLY bring balance. But I doubt KK will do that.
Arc, I hate the way you microscopically disect everyones fucking posts like that, and generally cut stuff out at your discretion, like on the last quote you made, you forgot this bit.
(Personally im pissed with nerfs, so boost the other fking classes, dont nerf)
Did i actually say nerf the APUs right here right now or a thousand kittys get it. no I didnt, Im's just asking boost a tank's armour, Monk's got the best armour, why ? Because they have low con ? PE's have access to shelters, heat/haz 1, psi sheild etc etc which put together make's them as resilient as a tank. Spy's can get decent resist setups, their problem however is massive lack of health and self buffs, however they are not pure fighters, their realm is sniping and somewhat ranged combat, once again, as arc said in previous posts, when there isnt a APU there to outsnipe the spy... o_O
Arc, you say make tank's resist cap's higher, that wont change anything, I duobt any tank is gonna completely fuck up another resist just to get say a extra 15 points in energy, 15 point in energy on my tank's setup would either be 75 points out of fire/health or 55 off Xray.no bloody thankyou. Why not give us armour so that we can get close to maxing more than one resist at a damn time. Cmon, at the end of the day what's the difference. PE's that only play PE's are moaning because they dont get a taste of the action, APU's are moaning because they might not be the top of the tree anymore, and PPU's are off rezzing a spy somewhere on a hill because the APU sniped back after being shot by the spy.
Wheres the big difference in your view from giving a tank new armour, or making us waste our CON points by having raised resist cap's, to raise your tank's energy would be lowering a tank's health/ath or another resist. no point as no tank would nerf themselves in that way. Just extra armour, please, maybe you even read this far through my post ?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I disagree hinch, hybrids were vastly overpowered. So it was just as bad as before.
Maybe making all monks hybrids and balancing them that way will fucking FINALLY bring balance. But I doubt KK will do that.
The other day I bumped into 2 hybrids at CRP, they were ~50-55 and it was my PE and a tank in my clan, me and the tank had my buffs on, and the 2 hybrids had their own buffs on. Now Hybrids seem balanced, as the tank and PE could stand up to them but the 2 Hybrids were still able to stay alive while attacking even when we concerntrated our fire. Ended up in a stale mate and they GR'd out in boredom o_O What im saying is that arc, you like yourmonk's damage, I know and you know that your a good monk and that youve got alot of experience with em. however correct me if im wrong but isnt your monk rank /55 ?!? and your APU can easily beat alot of ppl from all classes at ANY rank, you know that, thats because of tactics, experience, and the sheer ammount of damage a APU can do, lemme see a tank or PE do that to a class of any level higher than them in the game, nopes rarely if at all that is ever gonna happen.
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 18:11
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Arc, I hate the way you microscopically disect everyones fucking posts like that, and generally cut stuff out at your discretion, like on the last quote you made, you forgot this bit.
hrmm?
Why is that bad?
I want you to know what i'm responding to specifically. I don't see the problem. :confused:
I only quote what i'm responding to btw.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Did i actually say nerf the APUs right here right now or a thousand kittys get it. no I didnt, Im's just asking boost a tank's armour, Monk's got the best armour, why ?
It doesnt' matter WHY they got the best armor, they still have 2nd worse defense. So why does it matter? If someone got an armor that is 80 to every resist, and they have 5 con, they still will be gimpsville.
I got mad at the apu part because you shouldn't have even brought it up as a choice.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
APU's are moaning because they might not be the top of the tree anymore,
I don't see any apus moaning. Sometimes i wonder wtf you talking about. Even capped energy resist tank will be very hurt by an apu's HL. So why would anyone care if tanks got better armor?
Aside from "duel" obsessed pistol pes. *cough*
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Wheres the big difference in your view from giving a tank new armour, or making us waste our CON points by having raised resist cap's, to raise your tank's energy would be lowering a tank's health/ath or another resist. no point as no tank would nerf themselves in that way. Just extra armour, please, maybe you even read this far through my post ?
Fine it's a big waste, then maybe they could have both. The reason i mentioned it is because i've met alot of tanks who've "claimed" they've capped every resist except poison(which you don't even need to cap).
Maybe they could increase the resist cap by a bit and give them better armor?
Also I like rade's idea about PA.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
The other day I bumped into 2 hybrids at CRP, they were ~50-55 and it was my PE and a tank in my clan, me and the tank had my buffs on, and the 2 hybrids had their own buffs on. Now Hybrids seem balanced, as the tank and PE could stand up to them but the 2 Hybrids were still able to stay alive while attacking even when we concerntrated our fire.
Uhh.....no comment to that.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
however correct me if im wrong but isnt your monk rank /55 ?!? and your APU can easily beat alot of ppl from all classes at ANY rank, you know that, thats because of tactics, experience, and the sheer ammount of damage a APU can do, lemme see a tank or PE do that to a class of any level higher than them in the game, nopes rarely if at all that is ever gonna happen.
GRRRR.
*restrains himself before getting banned*
I have capped PSI, 86 int, and capped Con Fenyx. I don't know why my rank is so low, everyone asks that. But instead of crying at my rank you need to look at the FACTs. CAPPED PSI CON<---------most important
I can't believe you're complaining about rank.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Maybe they could increase the resist cap by a bit and give them better armor?
:rolleyes:
I's that not double of what Im asking ? I've asked for better armour, youve shot me down, you then say what about better armour AND raise the resist caps o_O
:lol:
sometimes I dont know wtf YOU are going on about at times either. :p
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 18:16
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Aside from "duel" obsessed pistol pes. *cough*
Only thing we are good for really :p
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I disagree hinch, hybrids were vastly overpowered. So it was just as bad as before.
Maybe making all monks hybrids and balancing them that way will fucking FINALLY bring balance. But I doubt KK will do that.
i know you do and yes they were but and this is the but
how many GOOD hybrids were there?
im not talking hybirds in total im taking how many GOOD hybrids were there the unkilliable kind that could take out any clan..
3 perhaps 4 per server? perhaps 5 on pluto and jupiter.
the rest were quite easily killiable.
now what your looking at is that any old crap person can be a ppu or an apu and you dont need nesserally any skill to make one or have one.
im fairly sure if i mad a pure apu that nobody not a single person of any class would kill me i also know if i made a ppu i wouldnt die ever.
in the hybrid time tanks although identical to now were actauly viable.
they could kill quite easily and did so quite often the limitations of the tank class are now only being exposed by mainly the pure monks my tank now is not actually that bad only 3 more lvls till cap and yes i know even you can kill me before i even get a shot off on you.
my frist comments as most people know when i started playing the tank were "its shit" "it had no defence" "it has no offence" and now the more pure monks dominate the more i see how correct i was.
all monks should be hybrids with a 3 skill set option not a 2 set and then tanks would be killing machines again and indeed EVERY class would stand more of a chance to attack and be a hostile class as tehy wouldnt have to worry about some pissy monk coming along and whoping their asses for them in less than 2 seconds
Exactly. PEs are crap for OP warfare, the only thing theyre good for is one vs ones. Now, my suggestion for the PAs was tied to PEs and Spies getting more toys. If PEs and Spies arent supposed to have a bunch of toys for themselves and still be gimps combatwise i dont see the point of the classes.
your not that bad rade
well you were a anoying destraction you wernt killing me and i certainly wernt killing you but you kept me busy enough till your friends got there to gang up on me
but still stealth sucks balls.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 18:22
Stealth 1 sucks in an OP situation, it will only really work in an urban environment. NINJA > U rar.
If there were not for stealth I wouldnt be playing this game, its the only thing thats making my char remotely viable outside of duels atm.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Stealth 1 sucks in an OP situation, it will only really work in an urban environment. NINJA > U rar.
I disagree. Stealth, any level, is incredible in almost every situation. I can imagine why people are pissy about it however, there are several ways to effectively shut down a stealther, Ive had those tactics used on me by people and the amount of people that are getting skilled in those tactics are growing.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 18:41
I never said I was right. I generally suck in all areas.
I remember chasing xantor around j01 after one of his killing sprees, bastard would just stealth as soon as he got badly injured. We spent ages running after him, untill we got a dmgboost going and AoEed the sod.
//edit I meant that urban was better suited for stealth. In an OP fight stealth is of use, just not as much as other times. I was talking relitively :p
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 18:41
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
:rolleyes:
I's that not double of what Im asking ? I've asked for better armour, youve shot me down, you then say what about better armour AND raise the resist caps o_O
fenyx I never shot down your armor idea. You really need to read more thoroughly man, seriously. Go and CAREFULLY reread each of my posts in this thread, i never said it was a bad idea.
*sigh*
You need to take a few seconds thinking about what you're going to post.
Originally posted by hinch
i know you do and yes they were but and this is the but
how many GOOD hybrids were there?
im not talking hybirds in total im taking how many GOOD hybrids were there the unkilliable kind that could take out any clan..
3 perhaps 4 per server? perhaps 5 on pluto and jupiter.
the rest were quite easily killiable.
The "good" hybrids could take out multiple people. But just because their weren't many of them was no justification for keeping hybrids teh way they were. Their were MANY hybrids that couldn't be killed 1v1 even if their weren't many that couldn't be killed 3v1. You see what i'm saying? You can't keep using the excuse "only the elites are like that" to justify the way they were. I'm not 1337 Hinch. My aim is horrible. And I died only ONCE 1v1 as hybrid, and that was when i got cocky and started doing stupid shit. Something is wrong when an "ok" player can KNOW that he won't die 1v1.
Furthermore, and NO OFFENSE, but some of you hybrids were to blame for your own desctruction. Instead of commenting on possible ways to balance the class, you just came here to say how there was nothing wrong with hybrids AT ALL, etc... Some of you were in total denial.
Originally posted by hinch
in the hybrid time tanks although identical to now were actauly viable.
they could kill quite easily and did so quite often the limitations of the tank class are now only being exposed by mainly the pure monks my tank now is not actually that bad only 3 more lvls till cap and yes i know even you can kill me before i even get a shot off on you.
Yea but I only fought you when you weren't capped and sucked as a tank. FFS you were wearing white pa. :p
I've fought against some of the best tanks, and i struggle to win. Simply because they seem to hit every burst and do too much damage to me.
Originally posted by hinch
all monks should be hybrids with a 3 skill set option not a 2 set and then tanks would be killing machines again and indeed EVERY class would stand more of a chance to attack and be a hostile class as tehy wouldnt have to worry about some pissy monk coming along and whoping their asses for them in less than 2 seconds
But apus can't whomp anyone in 2 seconds unless tehy are a spy or they suck.
Pes are the best apu killers. Can take more HLs than a tank and can hurt an apu faster than a tank(with the right mod) and move faster.
Originally posted by hinch
all monks should be hybrids with a 3 skill set option not a 2 set
What do you mean 3 skill set?
I know you think everything would be balanced if all monks were hybrids, and i agree. Unfortunately I REALLY don't see KK doing that. :(
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
tbph PEs have the lowest attack capabilities of the fighting classes (no offence PPUS :D)
We need the best defence of the fighting classes no?
No...classes gain also advantages from the combat style and the PE is a very good example. You have stealth, you are fast, you can heal fast - 3 things a tank can not do...but it sounds like you still also want the same as the tank has, means fighting the tank even without using your 3 advantages. Sounds wrong to me.
These 3 tools should and actually make you currently equal with a tank in combat by a different way to fight compensating for your lower ofense and defense which is pretty much perfect.
But your defense isnt lower now, it is better then the tank's*. That is actually the only lack of balance I see between PE and tank.
*Just better, pure damage numbers might suggest that PE's defense is much better, but the lower health of PE's has to be considered too.
/EDIT: please consider too, that drugs allows you to go even further then the usual good pure combat PE. You can for example significantly lower your damage output disadvantage by using damage boost and especially damage boost sanctum...you have the tools, what a pitty many PE seem to forget that.
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 18:43
Lucjan I love you. ;)
Originally posted by Rade
Exactly. PEs are crap for OP warfare, the only thing theyre good for is one vs ones. Now, my suggestion for the PAs was tied to PEs and Spies getting more toys. If PEs and Spies arent supposed to have a bunch of toys for themselves and still be gimps combatwise i dont see the point of the classes.
I AGREE. I don't think Pes are crap for op warfare, I just think their severly outshined.
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 18:47
As far as balance goes: FUCK BALANCE
Tanks should be BEST at combat. Think I'm biased? I don't even have any tank chars anymore.
And when I say best, I mean best, no hold barred, flat out, no questions, no bones about it, BEST. Against any other class, a tank should win without question or contest.
HOWEVER, they need to start making this a fucking RPG instead of the goddamn piss-poor combat sim it is currently. They're starting to go that way with the live runs, but things need to seriously pick up a few levels. In a true RPG, it's about being a different person in a different reality, it's not about being "the best" at something, and it sure as hell ain't about being "the best at combat." We need dynamic missions, and dynamic interactive sub-plots. If people could get involved and live out a virtual life in Neocron, then you wouldn't give a shit who is uber and who ain't.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 18:49
Even with these 3 advantages (although I don't heal or stealth in a deul... I-I-I mean PvP)
PE's still barely manage to come close to equaling tanks, which is good because that means there is balance.
If you increase the tanks defence/lower the PE defence you will loose this balance and the fun that the game currently has.
Shadow Dancer
22-09-03, 18:51
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
PE's still barely manage to come close to equaling tanks, .
When it comes to "duel" situations?
Sometimes I think pes only think about "duel" situations and that's it. lol
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 18:52
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Even with these 3 advantages (although I don't heal or stealth in a deul... I-I-I mean PvP)
PE's still barely manage to come close to equaling tanks, which is good because that means there is balance.
If you increase the tanks defence/lower the PE defence you will loose this balance and the fun that the game currently has.
As I said, fuck balance. Tanks should win. Yes, I'm serious. If they want to call this an RPG, they better start making it a fucking RPG instead of a bad FPS with timesinks.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
As I said, fuck balance. Tanks should win. Yes, I'm serious. If they want to call this an RPG, they better start making it a fucking RPG instead of a bad FPS with timesinks.
That would end up being 400 tanks online
Lots of bitch posts
Or people quiting
You really think people want a super class even for RP ahahh the day tanks start raping the roleplayers is the day they cry for nerf by the way how do you roleplay NERF THIS?
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 18:54
Originally posted by Nullifidian
As far as balance goes: FUCK BALANCE
Tanks should be BEST at combat. Think I'm biased? I don't even have any tank chars anymore.
And when I say best, I mean best, no hold barred, flat out, no questions, no bones about it, BEST. Against any other class, a tank should win without question or contest.
HOWEVER, they need to start making this a fucking RPG instead of the goddamn piss-poor combat sim it is currently. They're starting to go that way with the live runs, but things need to seriously pick up a few levels. In a true RPG, it's about being a different person in a different reality, it's not about being "the best" at something, and it sure as hell ain't about being "the best at combat." We need dynamic missions, and dynamic interactive sub-plots. If people could get involved and live out a virtual life in Neocron, then you wouldn't give a shit who is uber and who ain't.
This is an RPG AND a fighting game.
RP all you want, it's good, I'm all for RP, I love it but you can still easily have it to it's fullest with a balanced fighting system.
Besides, If tanks >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> every thing, everyone would be a tank, regardless of how good the RP was.
Disturbed021
22-09-03, 19:04
Originally posted by Nullifidian
As I said, fuck balance. Tanks should win. Yes, I'm serious. If they want to call this an RPG, they better start making it a fucking RPG instead of a bad FPS with timesinks.
You CANNOT have one class that should always win....there would be NO point whatsoever having any other classes if one class ALWAYS wins.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Even with these 3 advantages (although I don't heal or stealth in a deul... I-I-I mean PvP)
PE's still barely manage to come close to equaling tanks, which is good because that means there is balance.
If you increase the tanks defence/lower the PE defence you will loose this balance and the fun that the game currently has.
Actually I do admit I dont care about duels. What counts for me is the fact who is the one standing and who is the one using NEXT for free. You travel the wastes, you get attacked by a guy and the one who wins counts. If you don't want to heal during a fight or use stealth, it is your choice, but dont demand from the PvP balance cover your limited combat style. This just wont work.
That would be like tanks complaining Silent Hunter hurts cause they dont use deflectors or poison hurts because they dont skill any poison resists.
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 19:19
Originally posted by KimmyG
That would end up being 400 tanks online
Lots of bitch posts
Or people quiting
You really think people want a super class even for RP ahahh the day tanks start raping the roleplayers is the day they cry for nerf by the way how do you roleplay NERF THIS?
You don't have much foresight do you?
Here are a few reason why that wouldn't happen in a true RPG:
1) Consequences. The world would react to your actions. You kill people you get a rep as a killer. I'm not talking SL, I'm talking a reputation. Something you can't see as a fucking status bar or a number, you find it out when the world reacts to you. NPCs stop trusting you with anything, and you'd be unable to go anywhere without people either running away or attacking on sight. Plus, you'd probably have all sorts of bounty hunters on your ass. So no, you won't be able to just run around killing anyone you want.
2) In the real world, there are a lot of things that are fun, and very few of them involve fighting. It shouldn't be any different in Neocron. The problem currently is that the only thing KK spent any time on developing is combat, so currently that's pretty much all there is. If there were other activities that were equally rewarding, you'd have a ton of people who couldn't give two shits whether or not they could even kill a sewer rat.
Yes, people able to fight would still have a place, but so many other roles would also be available and necessary.
It wouldn't be as hard as you might think. All KK has to do is make an effort to make each different activity as interesting as combat is. Make it so someone could have fun doing just that activity and never delving into anything else. For example, if hacking meant being able to surf the Neocron citicom and infiltrate various networks, with a cool interface, then hacking would be fun. Right now, it's a tedious repetative puzzlegame. Tradeskills should involve some thought and creativity. Researchers should be able to design entirely new items. Constructors should be able to customize items in a million and one different ways. Recyclers should be able to create all kinds of crazy drugs from various raw parts. Also, the interface for doing these things seriously needs to be more than just a fucking progress bar.
Long and the short of it, the only reason why combat is so important is because combat is currently the only interesting thing to do.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 19:25
Originally posted by Lucjan
Actually I do admit I dont care about duels.
Furry muff (fair enough)
What counts for me is the fact who is the one standing and who is the one using NEXT for free.
HUH?
You travel the wastes, you get attacked by a guy and the one who wins counts. If you don't want to heal during a fight or use stealth, it is your choice, but dont demand from the PvP balance cover your limited combat style. This just wont work.
That would be like tanks complaining Silent Hunter hurts cause they dont use deflectors or poison hurts because they dont skill any poison resists.
*beats head on desk.
I said that WITH these 3 advantages the PE still only come close, nothing to do with my playstyle, which btw makes me loose a LOT.
If a PE meets a tank in the middle of nowhere by accident the PE is shafted, utterly. by the time he has got his buffs up he is dead. Either that or you run.
PEs are almost totaly reliant on their speed and their buffs, take one of them away and we cease to be viable fighters.
If you boost tanks, rather than nerf PEs, we will still be fuxx0red as most of us can barely go the distance in current fights, don't make it take longer.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
Long and the short of it, the only reason why combat is so important is because combat is currently the only interesting thing to do.
But there is not the slightest sign that it's going to change :(
So we have no other choice then stick to combat in Neocron.
Besides, I'm pretty sure both things would at least to some degree need to walk step in step.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 19:29
Originally posted by Lucjan
Besides, I'm pretty sure both things would at least to some degree need to walk step in step.
Good GOC I agree with you on something.
*glares at Nullifidian
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Exactly, same here, my PE's self sufficient, take on any mob, hell can nearly solo the chaos cares, probably could if I wasnt so cocky half the time :p anyway, try doing that with a tank o_O yea fking right.
my lvl xx/49 tank can and did solo chaos caves altho he was fairly setup for that for the get go its still possible, and when I get my account back on you can come to saturn and watch if you like, its just very time consuming as we know tank heals arent exactly fast, but it is quite possible, also assuming you have a speedgun those make short work of all the mobs in there
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 19:54
Originally posted by Lucjan
But there is not the slightest sign that it's going to change :(
So we have no other choice then stick to combat in Neocron.
Besides, I'm pretty sure both things would at least to some degree need to walk step in step.
Some of us still have hope.
As I said, live runs are a step in the direction of moving away from pure combat focus and more of a focus on plot involvement. Plot involvement doesn't concern itself with skill, stats, number, or anything like that. Plot involvement concerns itself with the player's decisions and actions.
I think the best PE should have a 50% chance to beat the best tank. Tanks have more firepower, GOOD PEs (with shelter) Note: WITH shelter, which can wear out in a fight have a little more defence then a tank. A tank buffed by a ppu is more effective then a PE buffed by a ppu. Its good as it is right now. leave it.
Originally posted by VetteroX
I think the best PE should have a 50% chance to beat the best tank. Tanks have more firepower, GOOD PEs (with shelter) Note: WITH shelter, which can wear out in a fight have a little more defence then a tank. A tank buffed by a ppu is more effective then a PE buffed by a ppu. Its good as it is right now. leave it.
A APU is better buffed by a PPU than a Tank is when buffed by a PPU. (not complaining about that, not atm anyway :p)
Solo tho, PE has around the same, if not tougher resists than a Tank due to buffs and shields.
hell this has turned into a balance thread, all i fking suggested was better armour for tanks.............................
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 20:07
Tanks suck, plain and simple. Because they are even in combat with PEs, they might as well be deleted as a class, because the only thing they are capable of is combat. PEs can do shitloads more besides combat.
I just found a interesting post.....
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=76044
Tanks need better defence eh, but shouldnt get better armour ?!? o_O
[Edit]
Shad, just gimme a plain YES or NO. Do you think tank's should get armour comparable to PSI armour. YES... or NO... Im not saying same stat's, req's around the 100-110 STR mark, but add to each resist other than poison just like PSI armour does.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Shad, just gimme a plain YES or NO. Do you think tank's should get armour comparable to PSI armour. YES... or NO... Im not saying same stat's, req's around the 100-110 STR mark, but add to each resist other than poison just like PSI armour does.
Im not shad, but I say no, thats why tanks have 100 con to sort out armor issues, not to mention lvl 4 armors give very nice armor bonuses, however I would think some sort of xray armor for a tank would be good
Nullifidian
22-09-03, 20:16
Let me ask you all something. If when you went to make your character it said under the descriptions:
Tank: good at fighting. Can't use any other skills other than combat skills though.
PE: Equal at fighting as a tank. Can hack. Can stealth. Can use medium level Psi spells.
Who in their right mind would ever choose a tank? Serious, who the fuck would choose a tank? The funny thing is, that is the currently reality of the so-called "balance".
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 20:20
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
A APU is better buffed by a PPU than a Tank is when buffed by a PPU.
As it fucking well should be.
And a tank + PPU > PE + PPU as tanks have higher resists and more hp.
As it should be.
Solo wise the PE is EQUAL to the tank (as it should be in my humble opinion, all classes should and to a cirtain extent are equal.)
Tanks benefit from team work, SHOCK HORROR NOT RP !!!! NOOOO!!!!
If i remember right, Nullifidian suggested that armor should become much more stronger, and that idea, i like.
Make armors stronger then shelters, maybe equal to Blessed Shelters...?
Also, maybe tanks should get some kind of "class" bonus. That is, any armor is more effective then before when used by a tank.
Maybe even give tanks access to Light Belts?
Hey, everyone are getting "class" PA soon-ish and soon enough youll see "class" items etc etc., so why not implement class bonuses?
Disturbed021
22-09-03, 20:24
Originally posted by Nullifidian
Let me ask you all something. If when you went to make your character it said under the descriptions:
Tank: good at fighting. Can't use any other skills other than combat skills though.
PE: Equal at fighting as a tank. Can hack. Can stealth. Can use medium level Psi spells.
The only viable Tradeskill for a Tank is repair (so u can't really say they don't have anything to do but fight). They are also the only ones who can use the big cannons on the vehicles (cept maybe a few gimped PEs) so they have an option most others don't.
A PE imo should not be able to Stealth. I have a PE and I still think Stealth should be Spy only. Spies need it much more than PEs.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 20:28
melee tanks can hack or poke :p
Besisdes rifle PEs are combat only effectively.
But this thread does seem to be Pistol PEs vs. tanks, so nm.
//edit I (and probably some others) won't be stealthing with these new kami chips.
Originally posted by Nullifidian
Let me ask you all something. If when you went to make your character it said under the descriptions:
Tank: good at fighting. Can't use any other skills other than combat skills though.
PE: Equal at fighting as a tank. Can hack. Can stealth. Can use medium level Psi spells.
Who in their right mind would ever choose a tank? Serious, who the fuck would choose a tank? The funny thing is, that is the currently reality of the so-called "balance".
Right. Have you been to a OP battle the last year? A PE doesnt
have half the impact a Tank has in OP battle. The only place
where a PE is equal to a Tank is in duel scenarios. Imo duels are
boring as shit, but its all I have.
As for your talk about PEs having shitloads of other options and
at the same time being able to fight.... Have you seen _any_ rifle
PE thats good at fighting and has a tradeskill? No. Have you seen
_any_ PE repair, recycle or drive a vehicle and at the same time
being able to fight reasonably well? No. Funny. Tanks can. The
only tradeskill option is being a Pistol PE, and have hacking or
semi-high implanting. Then again to use all these fine spells that
people claim that every PE has access to you need to gimp your
int with psi use, so no tradeskill.
Now, some people claim that PEs can take shitloads more
damage than a tank. This is only half true. A PE can take 15 CS
bursts to the head, IF he is drugging for psi shield, and has a
quickbelt full of psi boosters and does nothing but chew these
like a madman. This is not usefull in OP battle, in duels or in any
other real scenario. The only time where you might want to do
this is when you try to impress people by showing how much
damage you can take. Since psi shield makes you take more
damage once youre out of psi you are actually worse with psi
shield than without. I used psi shield for quite a while, but
stopped, because its useless.
More realisticly, a perfectly specced tank and a perfectly specced
and self-buffed PE (without psi shield) can take about the same
amount of damage before they die. PEs take about 30% less
damage, but also has about 30% less HPs. And still, the PE has
to make sure he remains buffed, whereas the tank is always
ready.
So whats left? Stealth. Runspeed. These two things are the only
edge PEs have over Tanks, and the cost is alot lower damage
output.
Add to this that once a Tank gets buffed by a PPU monkt he gets
immensly stronger, while a PE just get 1% or so more damage
reduction since shelters and deflectors are nerfed when cast on
others. And it doesnt matter how slow your own heal is when
you are being healed by a PPU.
Yeah, poor tanks. Boo-ho.
Im with Fenix on this one i think IMO tanks need some sorta new armour boost, if PE's can solo a tank (which is built for combat) wheres the point in being a tank? as it says the PE is an "average citizen" & tanks are "extremely strong & robust" umm do they look it now? :rolleyes:
I posted an idea in another thread, about Tank PA having zero
armor but instead having a low level deflector or shelter effect
(two different lines of PAs). This would increase Tank defence
_alot_ but it still would not make them any stronger when they
are buffed by a PPU, which they shouldnt be, thats my biggest
issue with some of the ideas posted so far, combined with a PPU
grouped with them it would just be too good. Also this would
mean that once you notice what PA the tank is using you could
swap weapons to better fight him.
This idea however was based on the idea that Tanks should be
the ultimate fighters (which they would be if PAs were changed to
this) but also that Spies and PEs gets more toys to play around
with. For example boodytraps, handgrenades with effects other
than damage (flashbangs which gives people hangover effect?),
hanggliders, being able to locate people via hacking and
cityterms, a int/dex based hightech melee weapon that turns off
someones (PPUs) buffs for a short period of time. If there were
things like these I wouldnt mind that Tanks were by far best at
basic combat: Taking damage and dishing out damage. But just
buffing Tanks as it looks now is insane, it would make PEs and to
lesser extent Spies completely obsolete.
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 20:43
Originally posted by Rade
The only tradeskill option is being a Pistol PE, and have hacking or semi-high implanting. Then again to use all these fine spells that
people claim that every PE has access to you need to gimp your int with psi use, so no tradeskill.
My PE has 73 lore 45 PSU and 111 IMP, I R t3h suxx0r
Originally posted by Nazgul
Im with Fenix on this one i think IMO tanks need some sorta new armour boost, if PE's can solo a tank (which is built for combat) wheres the point in being a tank? as it says the PE is an "average citizen" & tanks are "extremely strong & robust" umm do they look it now? :rolleyes:
Turn it around then. Whats the point of being a PE if Tanks are `
better than PEs at everything?
Originally posted by Rade
Turn it around then. Whats the point of being a PE if Tanks are `
better than PEs at everything?
for the masochistic ones out there? :D
....
jokes :p
Originally posted by Rade
Turn it around then. Whats the point of being a PE if Tanks are `
better than PEs at everything?
Well, they wouldn't be - PEs still have the range advantage if they go for rifles.
I do see your point though - I've spent a lot of a time as a spy, and PEs are better at pretty much everything compared to spies, except tradeskills.
Originally posted by Scikar
Well, they wouldn't be - PEs still have the range advantage if they go for rifles.
I do see your point though - I've spent a lot of a time as a spy, and PEs are better at pretty much everything compared to spies, except tradeskills.
Yes, thats been a big problem for quite some time, but its beginning to change now. As soon as the spy PAs come in the spies will be able to fight just like PEs if they chose to.
Originally posted by Rade
Turn it around then. Whats the point of being a PE if Tanks are `
better than PEs at everything?
Good point, but then, when all you want is combat why not chose a pure combat class like tank or APU? I mean the PE has huge potential do other stuff besides combat a tank just cant, it would of course mean your PE wont be the neat warrior, but not everyone is up to PvP. I guess it just depends on the point of view how each of us see the classes and the game as a whole.
Think Rades ideas about the new toys for PE's are great ones especially the hacking to locate people, that would rock, could also add more roleplay into the game like hiring a hitman who could then hack into a terminal to locate the target? :)
tanks can i guess hack (if your melee) just seems extremely gimped atm and really outta the question for pvp or OP wars.
PE's are turning into Pistol Specialists, as their making some of the TL's lower and more accessable for PE's
A PE IMO is for the person that wants to play a fairly flexible class, access to a bit of everything if they wish. the _CAN_ specialise if specced right, my PE's specialised in tech pistols.
Tanks are HC specialists, melee sucks so much its not even a option. a heavy weapon should do, and does do considerable damage, a tank, as a weapons and fighting close quaters specialist SHOULD be bloody resilient to all sorts of damage, not just whatever theyve picked their armour for, being Fire _OR_ Energy as their the only armours they really have
At the end of the day, not everyone's gonna see it the way I see it, Ill live with that, but to me its down right laughable that a PE can take a tank.
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
PE's are turning into Pistol Specialists, as their making some of the TL's lower and more accessable for PE's
A PE IMO is for the person that wants to play a fairly flexible class, access to a bit of everything if they wish. the _CAN_ specialise if specced right, my PE's specialised in tech pistols.
Tanks are HC specialists, melee sucks so much its not even a option. a heavy weapon should do, and does do considerable damage, a tank, as a weapons and fighting close quaters specialist SHOULD be bloody resilient to all sorts of damage, not just whatever theyve picked their armour for, being Fire _OR_ Energy as their the only armours they really have
At the end of the day, not everyone's gonna see it the way I see it, Ill live with that, but to me its down right laughable that a PE can take a tank.
Why? Have you never seen a movie where an agile hero takes
down some gene-engineered soldier with a bulky armor and big
gun in close combat? Anyone who takes a minute to consider
how close-combat would look irl if you had a weapon that big and
clumbsy would see how silly it is that a tank even has a remote
chance against a pistol or melee user up close. Now, this isnt
reality, so we skip that, but trying to use common sense as a
reason for balance here is... insane...
Dribble Joy
22-09-03, 21:06
The point is, in RL a PE could take a tank.
The tank is wearing half a ton of armour and weilding a weapon usually seen on medium fighting vehicles.
A PE can dance around a tank like a crazy monk3h, pumping him full of rounds.
Oh, Re. the pistol reqs? That's only Callash thinking aloud, and it most likely not happen.
Originally posted by Rade
Why? Have you never seen a movie where an agile hero takes
down some gene-engineered soldier with a bulky armor and big
gun in close combat? Anyone who takes a minute to consider
how close-combat would look irl if you had a weapon that big and
clumbsy would see how silly it is that a tank even has a remote
chance against a pistol or melee user up close. Now, this isnt
reality, so we skip that, but trying to use common sense as a
reason for balance here is... insane...
But if you take it to common sense, a heavy weapon is a bit more effective at medium range. Cannons in game suck at any range except up close, even AoE weapons have such slow projectiles it's impossible to kill anything.
With more realistic handling, a PE would take a tank at close range, yes, but a PE would not be able to run straight at a tank, if he got anywhere near the tank's forward arc he would get cut to pieces. Not to mention trying to take on a melee tank. :p
Originally posted by Scikar
But if you take it to common sense, a heavy weapon is a bit more effective at medium range. Cannons in game suck at any range except up close, even AoE weapons have such slow projectiles it's impossible to kill anything.
With more realistic handling, a PE would take a tank at close range, yes, but a PE would not be able to run straight at a tank, if he got anywhere near the tank's forward arc he would get cut to pieces. Not to mention trying to take on a melee tank. :p
Which is exactly the way I want it.
Then most Tanks would get a little melee just to be able to defend themselves when it gets close, Spies would get a little of both pistol and rifle.. and PEs would have to chose between rifle and pistol and chose where they want to be good.
KRIMINAL99
22-09-03, 22:10
Heavy tanks are good for one thing... RPKing.. You sneak up on someone and they are almost dead before they realise they are being shot. But any other scenario they suck. So my advice if you want to RPK play a tank otherwise play another class. Their range AOE attacks are good for covering areas from a distance like OP openings but thats about it.
Oh and don't listen to the PE only players who try to tell you that tanks are better... :rolleyes: When the game started RPKING was king so PE's were thought of as weaker than tanks because they weren't too hard to kill when they were snuck up on. However now rpking isn't as common since there is nothing to gain from it and its obvious that PE's are way better than tanks in any PVP scenario other than sneaking up on people. I think those people are just trying to use the old misconception to convince themselves they are worth something...
Originally posted by Rade
Which is exactly the way I want it.
Then most Tanks would get a little melee just to be able to defend themselves when it gets close, Spies would get a little of both pistol and rifle.. and PEs would have to chose between rifle and pistol and chose where they want to be good.
I posted an idea on just that, here. (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72155&highlight=Weapon+Skills+Idea) The idea being that once something like that was in place, where tanks could still use some M-C yet they'd specialise in either H-C or M-C, and then you tweak cannons to have poor aim at short and long ranges, but good aim at medium range.
Deke_Warson
22-09-03, 22:31
You guys are making my head hurt. It sounds like an unruly TS session in hear. People keep stepping on each other and missing bassic points. People keep compairing Drugged up PE's to un buffed tanks as the norm of combat, talking about OP battles when they seem to mean duels, or visa versa. This post is a mess.:p
First, and on topic, Tanks should get better armor, which they will next patch when the Lv3 armor becomes usabel without drugs. Tank PA needs further tweeks, but I'll save that for another post.
Second, and this applies to all classes, being setup for, and being good at duels = being good at duels. Nothing more.
Third, PE's are NOT worthless pieces of shit in OP battles. All of you poeple who are worshiped as the PE gods of NC are missinfomred on this topic. The only time I have EVER been usless in a OP fight it has been because of my mistakes, not any limitations placed on me by my Char.
Finaly a drugged up PE can be a handfull, but only slightly more then the undrugged variety. A properly drugged up tank is straight out of terminator moves, bad jojo.
You guys have to keep in mind the KK has a responcibility to look at all tweeks with an avage playing in mind. One who hasn't spent hours over con+armor setups and is just trying to have some fun. Thats where things like xray bones come from. We could banter all day about how they might be fair or unfair, but there is no denying they are a great addon for the avage player.
*In a hurry, sorry for any spelling/Typo's
Doc Holliday
22-09-03, 23:42
skipping most of this thread one glaring error came to light straight away. fenyx u based your arguement on a whine about ppus mate. u said that pe buffin an apu or ppu buffin an apu. er thats 2 diff people and a whole diff ballgame. if we are talkin 1 vs 1 a tank is balanced nicely with a good con set up against all other classes. u tipped the apple cart talkin about 2 vs 1. oh and QD in your early reply er how is he talkin about pvm there mmmm?
meh I've not read this thread far but PE's are sooo not better than tanks in PvP. sure some have got damn nice resist setups but generally a reasonably well setup tank can take more damage.
QuantumDelta
22-09-03, 23:53
Nice Warson.
Okay.
Nulli, normally you bring up decent points, however, your point about RPG Wise, tanks being better is flawed two fold.
A) Tanks were engineered to be fighting machines - True.
However.
While that is true, the tank was mass produced, and was meant to be a part of a fighting unit, tanks "won the war." because they could carry and use big guns, basically, that was it, a tank would walk up to a warbot, fire, hurt the warbot, and then get killed.
His mate would walk up to the same warbot, fire, get killed.
Their other mate would walk up to the same warbot again, and do the critical damage to take the warbot down, and then get killed by the next warbot.
If you read the timeline again, it gives the impression tanks only won the war because of their easily replacable numbers.
"Strategies and tactics win battles.
.....Logistics win wars."
Tanks were, compared to pretty much everything in (person wise) in neocron, completely pathetic, at everything.
We ("Citizens" and monks), surpassed them at pretty much everything, but, they were a forced, cheap labour pool, that quite frankly, no one gave a fuck about.
So The Monks would pour thousands of these tanks at the enemy, so many tanks that they would pile over eachother trying to get to the front line, and repeat the process from the explanation.
B) Outside of storyline - If Tanks became the only real way to fight, or Tank and APU, with PPU Gone, people would, and I mean WOULD Quit.
Tanks are Fucking Boring Bastards.
The reason PvM PEs are better than tanks, is because of two things;
Okay Resists, and shelter combined with good regenerative defence(heals). If you removed the PEs ability to heal as he does, he would be just as pathetic at PvM as the Tank.
I explained a long time ago that PPU should be looked at as a combat modifier.
In this game, the ability to win used to be wholely based on your STR and CON Level.
Guess what, that sucked long and hard.
Subsequently, however, PEs and Monks began to master their own classes, the ease of the rule of the tank was over because the people who played other classes began to understand what tanks had so easy;
Resists.
On the absolute maximum (drugged self buff non-shelter), a PE Can have about .65-70 the resists of a tank from armor and CON.
Ya know, that's LESS THEN A MONK.
The only thing that makes up for it, is shelter.
For a PE to truly be combat capable, they must master drugs, and PSI, and then master all stats.
PEs must learn to enhance and draw from;
Their INT, In terms of subskills and main stat levels.
Their STR, In terms of FOR and main stat levels.
Their CON, In terms of Resists, HLT and ATL.
Their DEX, In terms of AGL, Combat skill, and possibly, even *TC.
Their PSI, In terms of subskill management, mana pool management, PSI Damage management, and mainstat.
*Rifle PEs don't NEED TC but Pistol PEs may as well just give up if they wanna try to compare to a TPC/CS Skilled tank of their own level with Lib.
That's a LOT FUCKING MORE Work than a Tank.
If you wanna talk about what people deserve, tanks deserve fuck all for what they do to earn their combat skills.
[edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming]
People like him don't understand resists very much, and to be honest, I'm glad.
A GOOD, Fast Tank, With GOOD RESISTS, No just something that looks nice, is far more effective, one on one or in op wars, than the PE.
Why?
Pain Easer is nullified by a GOOD Tank setup ...not that a lot of retards do it.
Liberator is piss poor in PvP due to the burst bonus.
This leaves (out of the effective weapons for PEs);
RoG...and BlackSun... o_O Oh My God.
BlackSun does 2x12 damage to a _GOOD_ Tank from point blank range. 24 fucking damage, even with ALL My defence, and ALL my tricks, Tanks Can do 38-44 damage to me, with CS.
Heh, what's worse is that tank would typically have about 500 HP.
I can muster about 450 if I eat three drugs.
RoG is slightly more powerful than BlackSun, but this is nearly pointless because of the lower RoF.
So... how does this play out....
BlackSun vs TPC/CS Tank. - Both Players have the 100% Skill level that's theoretically possible for a Neocron Player, and both have the perfect skill sets.
Both are given time to prepair.
The Tank takes no drugs, the PE Takes 4-6 drugs, if not more.
The effect of the drugs, basically means a PE can only function effectively at the explosive maximum possible combat effectiveness of the PE, for five...minutes.
That's less time than someone's base buffs.
Heh, So, the Tank has done zero to prep for the fight beyond casting;
Spy1, HC1(Possibly Melee 1, depending on the tank, and no, I'm not talking about a melee combat tank), BR1, MAYBE deflector.
Both characters go at it.
Due to the BlackSun's aiming, it's actually not something I can complain about much anymore, however, TPC/CS and other cannons of the like, are actually the easiest weapons in the game to aim.
Simply because once they gain their initial lock, or most of their initial lock, they maintain it, almost completely even when the lock is broken.
In actual combat there's no real way the PE can break this, if the tank has the maximum theoretical skill level for a player.
This means, if you check your maths we did before, even after the PE has cast 7 buffs, taken 4-6 drugs, and pumps expensive PSI Boosters, the tank still, is most likely, going to win.
PE, as lucjan said, generally only wins by playing on their one meager advantage in duelin.
Manuverability.
Well, there are tanks out there now with excellent resist sets, that can move as fast (almost) with cannons out as PEs can period.
To me that's just plain sad.
After all that....... tanks want more........... ..........more.........
I see a lot of people bitching because of a lack of skill on this forum.
However never do I see it more, from the Tanks.
Hense, why I hate, tanks the most out of all classes.
Just fucking sad.
Doc;
He was talking about his ability to solo mobs.
It's a thing PEs can almost do unrivaled now....
Doc Holliday
23-09-03, 00:40
hmm ok he doesnt say pvm in his post and then goes off about apus etc, it dont read to me like it did to u. thats fair to say. good points clearly explained to the 'tards i mean masses tho qd. nicely put.
so I take it this is a tanks are fine, if not overpowerd because their more usefull at OP wars than PE's thread now, rather than the tank's should get some new fucking armour thread...
QuantumDelta
23-09-03, 00:47
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
so I take it this is a tanks are fine, if not overpowerd because their more usefull at OP wars than PE's thread now, rather than the tank's should get some new fucking armour thread... [edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming]
so long as they can't break 76%
Doc Holliday
23-09-03, 00:47
just makin my thoughts known fenyx thats all. u dont like it dont start threads like this one.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
i have ....absolutely zero objection to Tanks getting better stats on their armor.
so long as they can't break 76%
I never suggested breaking the 76.6% resistance, just being able to reach the resistance on energy AND fire and atleast getting some Xray from armour. Their fricken fighters, how long have they been that in the storyline? And you woulda thought that some bright spark spy somewhere woulda made em better armour no ? They can make the armour for PSI's, Spy's get their Xray armour with crazy Xray resist on it, Granted the NEED DEX armour that adds energy or whatever but they also get heavy belts.
Why dont the tank's get specialist armour that doesent add to just one resist (theres Dura, need a whole set, Inq, need a whole set (well not whole, but u get the idea)) Anyways. Get it back on topic.
I totaly agree with Rades post abuot Tanks vs PEs. Thats exactly how it is, argument over. A fantatic PE might be better at combt that a great tank for 2 minutes while shelter is up, but thats it... once shelter goes down PE has no chance. Tank is bread for cmbat... hes always ready to fight, where as no other class is. Hes also the easiest to make a good fighter out off... it takes a lot of know how and effort to make a good combat PE, not so for making a good tank.
QD made a really good post too.
Ive noticed when this forum has a discussion on class blance, its always the know it alls (meant in a literal sense, not making fun) vs the think they know something but donts.... once again the people who know the game really well win the argument.
KRIMINAL99
23-09-03, 03:47
oO? QD Dont you realize that the more angry you get about stuff like this and run around insulting everyone rather than trying to make an intelligent attempt to refute their claims the more it makes it obvious that deep down you fear yourself that you are full of it?
The difference between the best PE resist setup and the best tank resist setup is very small, and certainly not enough to outweigh the advantages of all the healing and buffing PES can do, their faster speed and aiming etc. BTW I was a PE before I ever played a tank, and have capped both of them. I kicked butt as a PE in neofrag back on pluto, and my tank was an rpker as thats what tanks can do good. But I dont take a tank to neofrag vs PE's simply because they are at an obvious disadvantage.
Yes a CS burst does more than a libby burst. But tanks cant move fast with their weapons out, and dont hit that well unless right in your face with their gun. Just because you have to move to win or use a spell to win doesnt make it so that tanks are better than pe's for equal skill :rolleyes: And Pe's have plenty of time to cast their buffs when they arent fighting someone who parashocks. Once you get good at being a PE then you know how to time the rebuffs where you duck behind a pillar or something.
Let me make this real simple, so even totally unobjective people can understand (or rather cant deny it to perpetuate their immature state of denial). If you had a class that didnt move at all, but had 5000 hit points and did 250 damage per hit in the one direction it could shoot in vs a PE who would win? The PE of course itd just go behind it. But if you then put that player at the end of a long, narrow hall without anywhere to hide then its going to eat the PE for breakfast. So which class is better? Depends on the situation. Same with Tanks and PES.
Now most everyone else who plays tanks and arent biased for PEs sucking (to make themselves look better) or plays both say that Tanks are not as good as PES in PVP. Some people wanna claim that they are for whatever immature reason (Just like the hybrids who claimed they werent overpowered because they "had to rebuff sometimes" or whatever)
Fine... Break it down into simple math, physics and psychology. Cause thats the only way "prove" it - i.e. be able to show that your position is likely to be accurate despite any bias that you have. Most likely you would find instead how your bias has mislead you.
Come on, the PE only moves at a rate of x m/s, the avg human would allow them to hit the PE this percent of the time at that speed, all the game factors mean he would do y% of dam at that accuracy per second...
What is that a little beyond your capabilities? Obviously I haven't done that either so how is it Im so sure Im right and your wrong? Simple. I can look at the way you talk, the way you try so hard to convince everyone that you are intelligent, a good person etc., how angry you get in the slightest instance over anyone implying that you might be wrong and easily tell that you haven't the capacity for objective reasoning. Whatever you want to be is whats going to be in your mind...
If it wasn't for that I would seriously consider anything you said even if it directly opposed what I had seen just due to the amount of effort you put into trying to understand things. However I have met people like you over and over and by this point know exactly what to expect. People with an extreme desire to be considered as intelligent will find out how to do just that. Meanwhile people with an extreme desire to figure things out and solve problems and actually BE intelligent will be the ones with all the REAL answers.
@ Fenyx... For the best tank setup you shouldnt be getting close to the resist barriers anyway... The diminishing returns means the points are more valuable somewhere else even for the very same purpose of being able to take more punishment.
@ Vettero... lol are you referring to me and QD? Ok hold that thought for a second... Who has been playing longer? Who has the higher post count? (WAAAAYYY HIGHER) So once again, which is the loudmouth and which is the more experienced? :lol:
QuantumDelta
23-09-03, 03:53
[edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming]
So you're hiding on Saturn, great.
If you're going to try to attack me personally it's pretty obvious you're already at the end of your argument.
However, all you have done, is re-say, what you have said before.
It's a tired, untruth that many tanks have tried to pour onto this forum.
fortunatly those with skill, those on my level or the very few above it, know the truth.
That in itself, is enough to stop the likes of you.
[edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming]
As for my 5980 posts.
I've never had a single ban.
I've never had a Dev GM or Mod tell me I'm wrong, on occasions I've had some of the facts (normally the closest guess) and get corrected.
Deal with it.
I find myself echoing Vett's final comment.
Second edit;
Wav doesn't work.
Maybe next time...
Heh, I wonder if Callash understands the comments I made about my position because of all the information I acquire simply from having helped GMs, and having observed Devs, and having tested several things ingame, in a controlled environment with damage precise weaponry as well as several other things.
[edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming]
[btw, you are really pushing the envelope here, calm down]
Let me put this simply - If you only goal is to have the PE classed nerf'd wait until I cap Zerion. I plan on making the game first Disruptor using PE (who uses it as a main PvP weapon). At least let me cap and use my Disruptor before we go the way of the hybrid.
KRIMINAL99
23-09-03, 04:08
[edited for consistency]
QD I obviously didn't attack you personally,[edited for violation of the forum rules - baiting].
The only time I ever fought you close to your level I killed your clanmate who was with you and you ran away before almost dieing... You keep claiming I ran from you after that times when I had left the scene 10 mins earlier...
Yet you repeatedly make claims that I "have no skill", not that I even would care if I had skill or not oO
Btw How can "I" be the one hiding on Saturn when saturn has about twice the population that Uranus does... I mean your entire server wouldnt be able to stand agains the biggest clan on Saturn lol
He said that he wants to be able to reach more than one of the resist caps. The best setup doesn't come anywhere near the resist caps. quote from fenyx:
"I never suggested breaking the 76.6% resistance, just being able to reach the resistance on energy AND fire and atleast getting some Xray from armour."
Lol but which of us was which in that comment qd (check the response in my last post)? Lemme guess is this the point where you think you have weight because someone likes you? Wait lemme train my pet monkey to type "Krim is teh right" real fast and well be even again :rolleyes:
@Keiron... No no no lol I don't think the PE should be nerfed. The tank is a good start class for newbies. Its just players who know the game would be at an advantage with a PE in a 1v1. I was just saying there are still people trying to claim that PE's are the underdogs vs tanks when its clearly not the case...
QuantumDelta
23-09-03, 04:14
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
QD I obviously didn't attack you personally, [edited for consistency].
Says.
Only you, maybe you should fight VetteroX on Saturn while he's over there, he's capable of what I am.
The only time I ever fought you I killed your clanmate who was with you and you ran away.
[flaming]
You keep claiming I ran from you after that times when I had left the scene 10 mins earlier...
Kill'n'run, that's all you do.
Kill a low level character or two, and run like mary hell.
Btw How can "I" be the one hiding on Saturn when saturn has about twice the population that Uranus does...
While you bait from saturn, you're hiding.
I mean your entire server wouldnt be able to stand agains the biggest clan on Saturn lol
I'm sure syndicate, uts, synchs, ronins, uk usa, SSC, MoV and R2K would have a lot to say about that.
Yet you repeatedly make claims that I "have no skill", not that I even would care if I had skill or not oO
[flaming]
He said that he wants to be able to reach more than one of the resist caps. The best setup doesn't come anywhere near the resist caps.
[flaming]
quote from fenyx:
"I never suggested breaking the 76.6% resistance, just being able to reach the resistance on energy AND fire and atleast getting some Xray from armour."
Bones'll do it.
Lol but which of us was which in that comment qd? Lemme guess is this the point where you think you have weight because someone likes you? Wait lemme train my monkey to type "Krim is teh right" real fast and well be even again :rolleyes:
You have no clue who these people are....... I can't believe you even imagine you have weight in these conversations when you have zero awareness of those in it.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Btw How can "I" be the one hiding on Saturn when Saturn has about twice the population that Uranus does... I mean your entire server wouldn’t be able to stand against the biggest clan on Saturn lol
Generally I don't get into "My servers dick is bigger then yours" fights but you need a taste of reality. Saturn may have the most players, however that speaks nothing of player skill and intelligence. I have played all three main English servers (would try the rest, but they don't have a server for people who speak Latino_O ) and I've found that Saturn was my least favorite of all server. It is filled with players who like yourself have no grasp on skill, simply numbers. Pluto is by far the most "hardcore PvP" server, on that server I played as a hybrid in clan PIMP (until Hybrids were nerf'd, then I lom'd to APU). The skill of some of the people on Pluto is freighting at worst. However, of all the servers I enjoy Uranus the most. I have found very few l33t haxxors, scammers, and random PK's. Clans on Uranus tend to stay together for a long time and the members are honest. This is something that I can not say about the other two servers. This would give Uranus the most intelligent players. Of all those, take your pick.
KRIMINAL99
23-09-03, 04:35
Originally posted by Keiron
It is filled with players who like yourself have no grasp on skill, simply numbers. Pluto is by far the most "hardcore PvP" server, on that server I played as a hybrid in clan PIMP (until Hybrids were nerf'd, then I lom'd to APU). However, of all the servers I enjoy Uranus the most. I have found very few l33t haxxors, scammers, and random PK's. Clans on Uranus tend to stay together for a long time and the members are honest. This is something that I can not say about the other two servers. This would give Uranus the most intelligent players. Of all those, take your pick.
Well first of all I was simply making the point that by any non biased gauging means saturn is the best. If what you say is true than everyone would either move to pluto to prove their skills or Uranus cause it was "the most intelligent". Yet there are more on Saturn. Hmm seems like the majority disagrees with you.
Hmm lemme try this a different way since it doesn't work to well the other way.
Quote: Longer lasting clans = Intelligence.
More likely: Longer lasting clans = Group of friends who stick together because they can't hack it anywhere else
But hey feel free to prove your reasoning.
another quote:
Honesty = Intelligence : Not even going to go into it, just simply prove it...
You want to talk intelligence, try and imagine how much it takes to run the giant clans on saturn. IMO basically you got a bunch of above avg exp int skill people on Uranus that all chill with each other to avoid the others and then hundreds of n00bs on saturn who are taken in by the few extremely intelligent people who see the oppurtunity there and turned into valuable players where they are then used to compete for OP's.
@ QD oh were to start :rolleyes:
Well first of all my point is as far as I can remember, and I don't make stuff up, IM BETTER THAN YOU... I mean if I can kill your clan mate while you are after me, then come and take you one on one and take you down to like 0 health (you had no fill in your bar) how can you keep making claims that I have no skill? I mean what on earth could they possibly be based on? I never selected out low levels once again as people like to claim... I just killed EVERYONE IN SIGHT until I died... there was no selection of who.
About the bones... If your talking about force and pierce, Im not. If your talking about xray bones, I haven't played since I started school this year so I don't know about those. They still wouldnt change the fact that reaching nrg or fire res cap isnt the best way to go.
You just named 5 clans... whats your point? that there are at least 5 ppl on Uranus? Yeah I was exxagerating (I think).
Let me just say something real quick. You don't make friends by figuring out the right answers. If an average person knows you, and you are right about something, and they think you are wrong then most likely A) They will only accept you are right if you greatly soften the blow and if they don't have a intelligence complex disorder. B) Won't do it repeatedly.
If you spent your whole life figuring out everything in the world and wanted to share your discoveries for the betterment of mankind, youd be royally F&*(&#$#. Your best bet would be to A)write it in a book and hope people cant set up primitive mental defenses against you since you aren't even there and you can limit your emotional responses to what people say. B) Just use the information for your own benefit and only share it when people asked "How you do that?"
A computer could do it face to face, but afaik no person could because they will be brought down to their subjects level no matter how stoic and how much resolve they had.
Anyways the point is you keep bringing up names of people, but all this serves to do is show that you are more concerned with having people like you than figuring anything out.
So because I play on Uranus I'm a 2nd rate chump? I'm sure you can ask anyone on Pluto, I wasn't an uber APU (nor was I ever capped) but I never sucked ass by any means. Perhaps you should try more then one server before you make your decision.
QuantumDelta
23-09-03, 04:38
Not bad krim.
To both;
Intelligence doesn't always equate to best.
Heh, Krim.
Your first post ever that's left a non-derogative impression of yourself upon me.....
edit;
And then you go and edit that last paragraph in citing something that, actually happened while I was /40 and my "team mate" Haruko, who wasn't my clan mate, was /45.
Anyway.
I didn't die, and you ran for it.
After basically that meeting, I acquired my first rare, and started mass developing my FS2 Style training and knowledge acquisition system.
I dueled, and lost, to all the best of the best. Primarily hybrids.
In the end, I developed a PE that could KILL one of the OLD Uber Hybrids before they Nerfed Boosters.
something most people regard as impossible.
However, i did it, infront of an audience too.
I have progressed since then.
And I always will.
Read the sig.
If you intend to compete with me, you will become not you are.
I am not always going to be the best, at anything, however, I learn, and assimiliate, and include, and eventually, surpass.
I'm on that succession stage now.
The Problem is, my three main competitors (as I see them), XaNToR, Rabbi Fang and VetteroX have met the same level of configuration, basically attaining the minimum damage a PE can take from a CS...
The maximum potential operational status, of the PE.
....Therefore, it is logical to deduce that only personal skill can push me further.
Personal skill that has seen me acquire two kills in 8 vs 1s, almost kill a third and still retreat to survive.
Two PPUs, + 3 Tanks + 2 APUs + PE.
Killed a PPU, PE and almost killed a tank.
I will forever now, be better than thou.
KRIMINAL99
23-09-03, 05:10
Thats great QD and Im not saying Im better than you NOW just cause I was before (if I was then) since I havent fought you recently (although my guess is I am). However you can by no means claim that you are better than me either simply because you got better. What level was I at that time btw /20 with an unlabled pc? No I didnt run, you did because you had visibly no health left in your bar. When you were gone, THEN I left.
Ive done similar things to what youve mentioned, although noone is going to verify it because when I do it it doesn't earn me respect. Noone has to verify what you say to me, simply because I know such things can be done having done them myself. For one thing, the people are just as likely to shoot each other as you in an 8v1 lol. This isnt dragonball Z btw, there are things that you will NEVER be able to do.
BTW my point is about your 5000 posts is that you are always running your mouth... IE you go test something then 5 sec later you are on the forum about it. You don't think about the things you say before you say them. Whereas I maybe run on not enough info but I know how to use it at least and I don't open my mouth till what I have to say has value...
By the way.. Think about something for a minute. You are constantly telling yourself over and over again that people agree with you and that has value. What you fail to realize is that people don't agree with you cause your right, they agree with you cause you make them want to agree with you. Therefore, it does not have value. The reason why you find yourself drawn into arguments with me is simply because the things I say are right, you know they are right, and since you know they are right you cannot perpetuate your state of denial if you left my statements unchallenged on the forums. Whereas I could leave at any minute and not give a rat poop. The only reason why I argue about stuff with you despite your constant display of lack of simple objective reasoning skills is because I am gaining insight on the limitations of the human mind. When I am done, I will leave. You however will continue to respond to anyone disagreeing with you first with insults, then changing your responses to make yourself look less imature simply because you cannot mold the world to your desires as long as people like me are around to make it clear to you that is what you are trying to do.
MAFIA-Biggin
23-09-03, 06:00
Well personally I agree with QD's early post... any tank of high skill will kill a PE of = skill. Once this path comes we should have all lvls of PA and that will help to up your armor and attack bonus's
Just my 2cent
Biggin
QuantumDelta
23-09-03, 06:16
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Ive done similar things to what youve mentioned, although noone is going to verify it because when I do it it doesn't earn me respect. Noone has to verify what you say to me, simply because I know such things can be done having done them myself. For one thing, the people are just as likely to shoot each other as you in an 8v1 lol. This isnt dragonball Z btw, there are things that you will NEVER be able to do.
It was an op fight.
I was buying time for my friend to get away, held off 8 people of the same clan for long enough for him to run half a zone.
QD and Krim, no offence but shut the hell up lol, youll get my thread closed for flaming if you 2 get any worse.
Krim, I ant no newb lol, my tanks got a good setup, i can beat PE's and PE's can beat me, Other than a Lone PPU I can solo any class, however they can still take my tank. Im NOT saying nerf the PE, PE's are great, infact their probably the only class IMO That are OK. I mainly play my PE now because of this, my tank just feels under powerd. With the right armour setup on my tank I 'cap' XRR for a tank at 114 plus the 5 from a belt, I get 188 energy armour total cause of my energy resist plus dura, and I also get around 170-180 fire. Poison rapes me, alot of the APU's I fight alot know that :lol:, but After playing my PE, Ive realised that a PE can get the same resistances, my PE with his own buffs hits 430 HP and takes 40 from a Xheated CS, my tank with his own buffs will still take 60 damage sometimes more and thats with 520 health.
My PE's got the advantage that he has 118 hacking with his spy 1, meaning my PE's better for solo killing spree's as he can hack belts. He also has access to damage boost sanctum.
Love these ego trip threads, but I can safely tell you that my knob is definately bigger than any of yours... 0_o
DjSKum
Gotterdammerung
23-09-03, 11:13
Ok, this thread is now reopened.....However
There are at least 3 postsers here that need to get themselves in order and calm down before this post really gets closed for good. And to some I suggest that no matter what the topic or how heated the arguement, posting a new reply, sometimes just 2 min after your last one is considered powerposting and/or spam.
See this thread for further clarification:
No More Spam Thread (http://forum.neocron.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=75746)
Compliance is not optional
If we're going to refer to the storyline and say tanks were only effective while all fighting together, why do tanks bring less to a team than any other class?
Spy - hack, snipe, scout.
PE - scout, can still fight, can buff if there's no ppu.
Apu - high damage and antibuff.
Ppu - heals, buffs, rez etc.
Tank - Mid range AoE, which is made useless by ppus outhealing the damage on anyone, and the fact that there's no range at OP fights any more - because all of the pistol PEs run in close. Tanks are supposed to be the damage sponges according to patch 163 notes. So why can a PE take more damage? And ppus are a more attractive target anyway, so tanks literally have no role.
Originally posted by Scikar
If we're going to refer to the storyline and say tanks were only effective while all fighting together, why do tanks bring less to a team than any other class?
Spy - hack, snipe, scout.
PE - scout, can still fight, can buff if there's no ppu.
Apu - high damage and antibuff.
Ppu - heals, buffs, rez etc.
Tank - Mid range AoE, which is made useless by ppus outhealing the damage on anyone, and the fact that there's no range at OP fights any more - because all of the pistol PEs run in close. Tanks are supposed to be the damage sponges according to patch 163 notes. So why can a PE take more damage? And ppus are a more attractive target anyway, so tanks literally have no role.
The thread isnt about that, It's about if tanks deserve a new range of armour that is comparable to psi armour. Leave the class bashing stuff for another time...
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
The thread isnt about that, It's about if tanks deserve a new range of armour that is comparable to psi armour. Leave the class bashing stuff for another time...
I'm only trying to justify getting more armor - tanks need the armor in order to perform their role as a damage sponge. :)
Originally posted by Scikar
I'm only trying to justify getting more armor - tanks need the armor in order to perform their role as a damage sponge. :)
Or maybe turning the resist stuff around with natural resist > armor resists might be an interesting way to go giving CON more meaning.
ok.........here's my bitch, and i'll try not to dawdle this time (djingo told me i was talking shit in my earlier posts :p :D i agree with him o_O )
Pistol Pe's Capped with average skill......... not unbeatable but.
Pistol PE: Good
Faster than a tank (due to cannon slowdown),
aim faster than a tank,
can stealth (KOS KOS not al of em),
Givesmore damage than tank (given speed, aiming, and *ahem* specialization:lol: etc),
Takes less damage than a tank (due to buffs),
Can shock (though doesnt do shit to most tanks ;) but still),
Massive natural force resist (sometimes).
Tanks: Good
high force resist,
'Balanced' resist setup (so do PE's though :rolleyes: ),
awesome damage (from cs or gatling cannon),
Generally more robust (though in comparison to Pe's strangely not).
PIstols PE: Bad
Armor isnt as good as that of a tank (made up by buffs),
'Generally' weapons aren't as damaging as the mainstay tank weapon (though they are like i say due to aiming and rof etc),
Look too damned good to kill :lol: :lol: 8| i meant the lady's.
Tanks: bad
Slow due to cannon slowdown (fair enough)
dont necessarily have the ubar cons compared to a pe (again buffs)
tanks own buffs dont nessecarily 'Help' given that deflector increases the damage from cs n energy weapons, though less from libby's and the like.
erm...........did i mention slow?
I use Pistol Pe's Simply for comparison.
casts deflector n heavy combat booster 1 :lol:
GOGOGOG
Oh........and even though a tank is 'i feel' underpowered to an extent, i'd rather have a tank in my side than a pe.
Oath.
Originally posted by Lucjan
Or maybe turning the resist stuff around with natural resist > armor resists might be an interesting way to go giving CON more meaning.
No, that would have too much of an effect on spies and PEs.
To be honest I don't really know what needs doing. If Lib aiming gets fixed then it will be just as powerful if not moreso than CS, but until anything changes then for now, tanks and PEs are fairly balanced in fights. I think what's needed is to give tanks more of a role in a team to increase the demand for them at OP fights. An idea to do this for droners is to let drones see stealthed runners, but I can't think of anything for tanks really.
Having said tanks vs PEs are balanced, I truly believe that if anything PE is better. I've watched Rizzy and Pub King duel, with Rizzy on rifle PE and Pub King on tank, and Rizzy won hands down, at one point Pub King had the advantage, but a quick sidestep cast heal and Rizzy had the upper hand again. Even if a PEs shields wear off they can just stealth and recast them. With that in mind, I think that PEs should either not be able to stealth or they shouldn't have their current level of defence (though the effect of removal of stealth on the PE's ability to recast shields would probably be enough).
Though I would much prefer it to be a case of range. A PE should see a tank at mid range and be afraid, but close up the PE should win. But to achieve this would take a lot of weapon skill changes so it's not very likely. :(
I think the wider issue is that tanks haven't been much fun to play for quite a while! I agree with Scikar on this. I feel like a spare cock at an orgy half the time these days. Something has to be done to bring us tanks back into the game.
DjSKum
Remember back about 6-8 months, all the tank-o-cron complaints, everyone moaned tanks were over powerd, however look at it now, PE's spy's and monks have all had their new stuff yet the tank's got 1 decent epic gun and 2 new Imp's, Monks became popular because of hybrids and there is definitley alot more spy's and PE's around now aswell cause of the new toy's. Tanks are dieing out, rarely see a new tank in the game now either. Spy's got alot of new rares, stealth, xxr armour etc etc, PE's got a taste of some of the spy's new stuff, Monks were forced to go pure leading them to being alot more powerfull in their chosen line when teamed. Tanks are becoming obsolete which is why IMO tanks could do with something new, just to spice things up again. I barely play my tank now, more on my PE, or leveling my APU as that seems like the only option's now. my tank's a 10 month old char, he hasnt changed for 5 months other than a few CON lom's...
I dont think PE will like to see their stealth tool removed Scikar. I for sure hate that idea for one simple reason: it is one of the major tools that help me differ my combat from that of a tank. Speed is another of these tools, as well as my PSI is.
When it comes to my idea with switching the resists around, I dont think it would be that much of influence on other classes when you look at the global picture of it. I mean what do tanks use their CON advantage for atm to stay in the PvP business on a good place: they work to some degree against the slowdown due overspec of ATL/AGL. I more and more get the feeling a tank is "going PE" by not following its intended "simple design" of good defense with mucho health, but to tweak left and right to gain advantage from his pros and work against his cons...I dont think many will get the point, I lack the language to explain it properly :(
Armour should be one kettle of fish and con a completely different.
Con adding to armour is a bit well umm
They need to split em a bit somehow someway
:/ soz it's of the top my head atm
and yes the tank shas become stagnent what new things did we get bar the couple of epics.... o_O
KRIMINAL99
23-09-03, 15:47
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
I 'cap' XRR for a tank at 114 plus the 5 from a belt, I get 188 energy armour total cause of my energy resist plus dura, and I also get around 170-180 fire. Poison rapes me, alot of the APU's I fight alot know that :lol:, but After playing my PE, Ive realised that a PE can get the same resistances, my PE with his own buffs hits 430 HP and takes 40 from a Xheated CS, my tank with his own buffs will still take 60 damage sometimes more and thats with 520 health.
Personally I would never use a setup that would make me choose between fire resist and energy resist, but to each his own. (If your talking about a standing setup that allows you 520 health and that much resist in those 3 at once, you are greatly exxagerating) You have an interesting point that as long as the PE can shelter himself hell take less percent health per hit than a tank. But then you gotta think, If the tank has PPU support than he can reach a level that the PE never could. (Well... at least before they did that shield on others nerf :rolleyes: )
I think the best thing they could do to even things out a bit would be to put it back where you have to choose between shelter and deflector, and undo the shield on others nerf if they haven't already.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Personally I would never use a setup that would make me choose between fire resist and energy resist, but to each his own. You have an interesting point that as long as the PE can shelter himself hell take less percent health per hit than a tank. But then you gotta think, If the tank has PPU support than he can reach a level that the PE never could. (Well... at least before they did that shield on others nerf :rolleyes: )
I think the best thing they could do to even things out a bit would be to put it back where you have to choose between shelter and deflector, and undo the shield on others nerf if they haven't already.
That shelt or def thing would lead to people at OP fights etc spamming the PPU's with a TL 6? deflector so that people cant get shelters. can you just imagine a kamikazi PPU with uber ROF on a deflector sanctum running into the opposition casting a shite deflector group :D then the brigade arrives and slaps em 8|
anyways, ive tanks better armour, we dont want new toys, just some armour
[Edit]
Krim...
my CON and Imp's are as follows:
Herc Moveon Marine Resistor
Health_63 + 48 = 111 + BR1
Fire___65 + 15 = 80 Generally wearing inq/dura setup
Energy_99 + 15 = 114
Xray___89 + 25 = 114
Minimum TC under DEX with rest in agl, base 50 ath. The setup works fine, im just saying that it's about time tank got some proper armour, PE's have stealth which is a nightmare to fight against unless you have AOE on you or they stealth while healing or with a sanct up. Theres also other things like the fact that tanks have 2 guns of use in pvp, thats the CS and the TSG. moon/mal/db are all of limited use to nothing other than spam...
Good set up there somehere in the area of what mine is but as I said before unless they change armour resist more points in armour are not gonna do a whole lot for you maybe a few points off a hit at most.
Maybe they should make PA do perectage of dmg off more like a shelter instead of just having ENR points that just dont do to much for you.
tip to all APU's if u see FENIX use Posion on him :D
but seriously i would like to see who would take more dmg a buffed tank or a buffed PPU
think the PPU would still win :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Ryuben
tip to all APU's if u see FENIX use Posion on him :D
but seriously i would like to see who would take more dmg a buffed tank or a buffed PPU
think the PPU would still win :rolleyes:
Most of them know that anyway :p :)
I always carry like 100k's worth of drug's aswell rofl, my tank's a smackhead :o Antistuns by the dozen, anti dam boost, anto poison, the odd whiteflash ;)
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
. can you just imagine a kamikazi PPU with uber ROF
kami chips don't give PPU imo... not offensive and that;s the whole point of kamis
Originally posted by Possessed
kami chips don't give PPU imo... not offensive and that;s the whole point of kamis
nooooo like a crazy ass PPU running into the enemy group before a fight with a capped ROF on a shitty deflector/shelt/heal etc and prebuffing the enemy with shit before your main attack, geddit ? ^^
KRIMINAL99
27-09-03, 06:25
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
my CON and Imp's are as follows:
Herc Moveon Marine Resistor
Health_63 + 48 = 111 + BR1
Fire___65 + 15 = 80 Generally wearing inq/dura setup
Energy_99 + 15 = 114
Xray___89 + 25 = 114
Minimum TC under DEX with rest in agl, base 50 ath. The setup works fine, im just saying that it's about time tank got some proper armour, PE's have stealth which is a nightmare to fight against unless you have AOE on you or they stealth while healing or with a sanct up. Theres also other things like the fact that tanks have 2 guns of use in pvp, thats the CS and the TSG. moon/mal/db are all of limited use to nothing other than spam...
Well at least thats close to what you said before... I didnt realize you had dedicated ALL of your brain imps to resisting and health oO and only had 50 atl... And a few posts ago you were talking about being able to hit both energy and fire caps at once and now you have a setup that does all the sudden so Im a bit confused... but anyway
I will say that setup you just mentioned is like the best setup to allow a PE to kill him easily lol... I mean you got some slowness especially if you are using PA AND you have about the minimal amount of Weapon Lore (assuming all your int points are there). It doesnt matter how much health resists you have if the guy can circle you shooting indefinitely without you hitting him. Seriously though I still maintain thats not the best setup because you are using the imp slots and points to get like a fairly small decrease in damage in a couple different types when the slots could be used to get more accuracy and speed. If I was going to fight a PE I would jack up my weapon lore to like 125 or something (maybe not quite that much) and not even wear power armour. I wear the same armour mix that you do but my resists dont get that high and I don't worry about it. I keep my health that high too of course.
In this way the tank is able to get more out of his much higher con allowance.
But thats just my opinion. Don't think from my argument with whats his face into thinking im insulting you just cause I disagree with you lol.
104/105 WEP is pretty much all a tank can do without gimpage. And the difference between 89 WEP and these 104/105 is pretty much non existant.
Fenix does have a point there with tank's PvP being limited to CS and in some cases Speedgun. Tank were promised new cannons (two if I recall correct) in patch 15x stated as "as soon as possible", but someone forgot that :/
KRIMINAL99
27-09-03, 15:42
Well I know that with 125 weapon lore your and your plasma bursts can hit from farther away and while moving much better. I also use either a plasma wave or Storm Laser and snipe with them sometimes so WL makes a big difference to me. But there are other implants to choose from as well that do different things. My point is THAT ISNT GIMPAGE because a tank has plenty of points to get the majority of possible Con benefits without any boosting implants.. IE resist 66% of all damage types, cap health (if health is still capped at something like 5 whatever) and have high athletics. IMO weapon lore is better to use the implant slots for than the last 10% of dam resists. Getting recoil as low as possible on a CS is pretty important considering it combines with burst penalty to make your shots pretty inaccurate with low WL. And the tank has access to about of the high level WL boosting imps cause of his dex. So the brain slots will get level 3 usage.
Krim
All int's into Lore
I have not made every imp for health and resists, ive got adv movement in aswell so my tank isnt a slow git, I have no herc, I have a shit CS and I can beat most tanks if im having a good day, I nearly killed Tupac when he attacked me at half health, probably would have if he did have a rog spy with him...
Anyways, give tanks either some new armours like the psi armours or some new weapons, NOT aoe, not a laser but a decent burst weapon, im getting SICK of that plasma sound :rolleyes: ;)
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