PSI Resolution

[Neo LoneWolf]

I have posted my feelings on the problems with PSI before here (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?threadid=75088&perpage=15&pagenumber=1), so I shan't bother to reiterate them.

I posted some random thoughts I'd had about changes that could be affected to the system, just to give an idea as to where I was coming from, and how I saw Psi should be. I had some positive feedback to those ideas, and so I had the encouragement to develop my ideas.

What follows is a complete reworking of the entire area of PSI, with the intention of removing the major problems prevalent in the current system, create balance and consistency, and, moreover, give all players a greater amount of viable choice.

Okay, it's probably best to detail thesystem from scratch, rather than point out how this should change, that be removed, and this added.


So, PSI Primary skill - class caps: Psi-Monk (100); Private-Eye (35); Spy (20); Gen-Tank (10).

PSI sub-skills:

Agressive Psi Use (APU) - Affects Damage, Range & Frequency of APU spells. Act as a requirement for APU spells.
Passive Psi Use (PPU) - Affects Damage, Range & Frequency of PPU spells. Act as a requirement for PPU spells.
Exotic Psi Use (EPU) - Affects Damage, Range & Frequency of EPU spells. Act as a requirement for EPU spells.
Psi Power (PPW) - Affects PSI-pool and damage for APU, PPU & EPU spells.
Psi Resist (PSR) - Resists the effects of EPU spells.

Also - Int Sub-skill:
Willpower (WPW) - Has effect on drones. Adds to Range and Frequency APU, PPU and EPU spells. Affects PSI-pool.
[same effect as PSU now, just tacked onto WPW - therereally is no need for the extra INT sub-skill {unless you honestly fear the over-powered droning PSI-Monks}]

APU Spells:
Fire, Energy & Poison damaging spells that vary in delivery methods (Bolt, Blast, Lance, Halo, Barrel). Increasing in damage up the TLs to rare spells (one or two rare spells for each of the three damage types).

PPU Spells
Player-buffs, ranging from Heals, to combat boosts (Melee Combat Boost #), generic boosts (Spy Boost #) and resist boosts (Basic Resist Boost #), to Shelters and Deflectors, PSI shields, and also antidote, anti-paralyze, catharsis and resurrection.

EPU Spells
De-buffs (both player and Mob). Include: Damage Boost; Parashock; True-Sight; Distract Mind; Provoke Enemy; Antibuff; Anti-Heal; Anti-Shield; Anti-Deflector.

[Creature Focus I have no idea where to put, as the idea behind it doesn't really fit into any of the three trees. EPU list needs expanding]

Overall effect of these changes:

Psi-Monks will basically have 3 different areas to 'specialise' in. With the absence of MST, and without the [+APU=-PPU] system, the generally encouraged path will be to mix two of the vocations. Sure, pures will be possible, as will JoATs, but that will just add to the diversity of the Psi-Monks. Ans to add to that, Resist Psi will actually have a use . . .

PSI-based implants will need to be reworked (not only to include EPU-boosting imps), mainly to drop the +APU=-PPU system completely.

As far as non-monks are concerned, they will generally have the following choice:

*Points in PPU (& PPW) - Increases defensive capabilities
*Points in EPU (& PPW) - Increases offensive capabilities
*Points in PSR - Reduces enemy's potential offensive capabilities

[It might be good to note here, that a player's combat style, and also, the types of combat (OP-wars, duelling, etc) a player intends on involving themselves in will heavily affect this choice]

This adds some variety to the system as opposed to now, which is automatic points in PPU, MST and PPW.

That concludes my Resolution on PSI - feel free to rate my idea ;-)

Oh, just one more thing, drop PSI-belts - they are quite unnecessary.

[Q`alooaith]

This is a realy good ideas....



I'd make Soul cluster's PPU spells though as anyone going PPU, EPU would need em..



though it brings up the problem, APU/PPU hybrid's back, since the problem is they can fully buff self, and heal self, and shield self..

I'd move Rezz to EPU, maybe even put the anti posion and truesight type spell's there too..


PPU should be pretty passive, maybe give shield's a PPU and EPU req so you can't hybrid APU/PPU and shield yourslef... which was the ballence issuse..





I might suggest another idea.. Tie shields to the caster's Psi pool.. so they drain 1 psi point a second untill they fall, so you can cast on lot's of ppl, but it'll drain a lot, with maybe group spell's only draining 10 a second, while santums draining 5 a second..

[KimmyG]

IF EPU were to be added I would be ok with it if

Para was made harsher

Antibuff have a very fast cast rate

Truesight sanc would have to be none rare

and there would need to be more spells for them

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by KimmyG

Para was made harsher





F that.


That one thing alone would make me not want EPU. I'd rather have new spells or something.

[KimmyG]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
F that.


That one thing alone would make me not want EPU. I'd rather have new spells or something.


Well all I see with EPU is an apu that cant attack of defend. Im personaly not a fan of EPU cause your asking a player to run around with shitty defence and haveing to carry lots of rare or expensive spells.

[extract]

Originally posted by Neo LoneWolf
create balance

I really doubt that youre idea will create balance due to one small thing...obviously if theres no more MST and EPU takes the place of MST and you give an APU damage boost coupled with theyre already insane dmg youre really creating more of an unbalanced class....

also the willpower idea I dont like simply because for one theres no need psi power does all of the things you want as is....so why the need for another skill to spec for that

basically it sounds to me youre trying to maybe bring back an offshoot of a hybrid by giving APUs dmg boost and para....hidden agenda maybe? could be..................

[Shadow Dancer]

I don't think this is a good idea now that I think about it. I think the last thing we need to do is make a third sub-skill under monks.

[Heavyporker]

SoulClusters and PSI Shield goes under EPU.

Willpower sounds appropriate to me... Dropping PSI Use sounds well and fine to me, plus droners will cheer at not needing PSI Use to cast their level 1 drone combat booster and heal.

Gah, make it so dmg-boost is limited to 10-20% MAXIMUM in PvP.


Parashock must not be any harsher - it's more than strong enough currently.

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I don't think this is a good idea now that I think about it. I think the last thing we need to do is make a third sub-skill under monks.


I do belive he's trying to say, Remove MST... and replace with EPU..



And as such EPU, would cover spell's which are not defencive, or offensive totaly.. IE, para shock's, Rezz'es ect...


But I think EPU should also be a req for shields and such..

this would be a skill class like APU and PPU, and as such MST would be removed, EPU, would be boost ablity's, without being protective, or offencise in iteself..

APU would lose Anti spell's, they'd goto EPU, PPU's would lose Para's and Rezz, they'd goto EPU..

With some spell's needing a bit of two skill's, like deflector's needing a little bit (read 25% or req) EPU, and shelter's too.. This put's shields's out of the APU/PPU hybrid, and into the PPU/EPU hyrbid...


also, up the max damage of spell's to 1000%, now before you shock horror gasp, you'd only be able to get top level spell's to this level by massivly overspeccing the req, this would mean people could go pure EPU/APU/PPU and gain a lot for doing so.... though to geto 1000% damage, you'd need ten times the spell's req at least, putting hybrids out.. and with the fact that some spell's needing a bit of both to cast, would mean only die hards would get them this high, and even then they would be limited...

[Heavyporker]

Yeah, remove MST to make room for EPU.

Now, I don't really think that 1000% is right...

I say something like 700%. And make the Overspec bonus point around 170 in the skill (trust me, the points will be inhaled, and people will have a time of it trying to go that high.)

But... guys, seriously - there will be a need for EPU implants.

And PSI Core/Dimenson Splitter will have to change their +MST to +EPU

And the +PSU implants will have to change to +WPW.

At least we won't really need PSI eyes - the droner eyes would give us the WPW that we would need. Um. I think.

[Shadow Dancer]

Q, my point is KK can't even balance 2 sub skills for monks, you wanna add a third one?

:eek:


And making the damage cap 1000% would be overpowering. You would get apus doing 200-250 damage per hit.

[Heavyporker]

What'd I say about the %'s, shadow?

And spreading out the spell load over three subskills may finally balance things. Right now, everything overpowering lies in the hands of PPUs.

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Q, my point is KK can't even balance 2 sub skills for monks, you wanna add a third one?



no, it's not a thrid skill with it's own spell's..


it's a removal of MST, and placment of some less than passive spell's into EPU..


now EPU hold's promiss too, think about leach life, it's not totaly APU, so it'd be req's 50 APU 25 EPU Psi level ablity's 1


get the idea, you can also use it to ballence shields by giveing them EPU req's on top of PPU req's... rezz could also be EPU, or EPU 50, PPU 25..

the idea is, you make some spell's exotic, damage boost, parashock, beam's partaily exotic...

get the idea, the 1000% was just a number, so was the overspeccing by 10 times the req...

Point with the overspeccing to a high level bonus would be that, pure's would be doing massive damage, but would be total gimps in all other area's, where as APU/EPU hybrids would have damage boost and parashock, they'd not be as effective as pures..

[Neo LoneWolf]

It appears I have left a few areas to ambiguity, so I will hope to resolve them.

Firstly, transfering effects of PSU to WPW. The need for the PSU subskill simply is not there, as the effects can be instead thrown under that of the (IMO) sufficiently appropriate Willpower.

"Replacement" of MST with EPU. Okay, it really isn't as simple as that.

With the addition of a third school of spells, and the desire not to segregate any of the three, the need for a point-sink becomes quite unnecessary.

The power of the current spells (APU in particular) will need to be reduced. Take, for example, the effectivceness of an APU now. Now compare it to an APU/epu or an APU/ppu in my proposed system. The former gains damage boost and more, the latter gains a great amount of protection, both with the same skill-point investment as now.

It should be logical, however, that the actual effectiveness of all spells would need to be re-evaluated, and that bandying around meaningless numbers here would be pointless - it would be a matter for continued development until it was released in retail.

[Heavyporker]

And what about those that still choose to stay pure APU? You'd be fucking them over.

[Neo LoneWolf]

You could put it that way. But maybe you're thinking about it too 2-dimensionally.

The standard manner to weight a monk would become Primary/secondary.

An APU/epu would really be equivalent to the current APU, but with more tricks.

Anyone who was deciding to go one route 'Pure' would be denying themselves to the luxury of Epu to increase their power, or Ppu to increase their defense.

Tbh, I'd see it much as I see drug-use. If you don't want to utilise a certain part of the game, then don't whine about not being able to compare to those who do.

*shrug*

I'm talking about re-writing the PSI-rules, for the benefit of *Everyone*. Tell me, why would anyone want to 'stay pure', appart from being humanly stubborn and being happy with & emotionally attatched to their APU/PPU.

[Apoc]

You really wanna battle Monks that have HL and OWN Holy Shelter and OWN holy heal?

They have no need to freeze, no need to dboost.

I played the days where you had that (ok Ebeam instead of HL, but hey lower defense that days too)

Include new Kamikaze Chip, Welcome to 130 PPU, 130 APU and 130 EPU. Deadly!

Dropping EPU would make you a crushing Monster, hey with such an Hybrid you could beat up a whole 20 Man Clan on your own (if they have none of that guys too.

Like I said before I saw Monks APU/PPU, no EPU in old days, fire and forget and own Shelter, bye bye enemy, better rethink your concept from the beginning or you will have from 60 to 75% Monks in battle to then 100%.

[Huijari]

In case you didn't notice, but KK changed EPU to MST way back in beta4. I remember in beta2/3 when PE's was able to cast resurrection spells because of EPU :).

Anyway, PSI's needs "skill sink" as is T-C to others.

So forget your whole idea or PSI drain idea. What I do want is that boosts would vary from 75% to 125% depending of casters PPU skill so heavy combat booster 1 would give 3-7 to HC and lvl3 would give 15-25

[Heavyporker]

That's just stupid, Apoc. Get real.

Are you even seeing farther than your original proposal, Neo? I can't believe I have to detail everything down to three decimal places.


Make it so the best superiors are only accessible to pure path users...

Like Fire Apocalypse and the techpart barrels would only be accessible to pure APUs...

Like Holy Catharsis Sanctum and the like would only be accessible to pure PPUs...

Like True Sight Sanctum and the like would only be accessible to dedicated EPU users - they'd be able to use either PPU or APU, but they wouldn't be anywhere near as strong as the pures.

There, dedication is rewarded, diversity is rewarded, and everyone has fun figuring out what suits their play style.

[Apoc]

It was not Beta, it was Retail.
Big moaning around that days, cos it was a massive change of gameplay. But it had to be.

[Richard Slade]

EPU? Seriously, what class would spend their whole day De-buffing everything they see? And who in heck would want to be a capped De-buffer?!
"Oh we meet a tank? Sorry no can do."
Sure, the para but come on, is that it?!

[extract]

Originally posted by Richard Slade
EPU? Seriously, what class would spend their whole day De-buffing everything they see? And who in heck would want to be a capped De-buffer?!
"Oh we meet a tank? Sorry no can do."
Sure, the para but come on, is that it?!

:lol: :lol: I dont quite think that was the ideal, but funny nonetheless

I personally think its a cheap way to try and bring hybrids back as most of the hybrids miss theyre sheilds, I can garuntee that they miss the DB, and para more which is why I think its funny it comes back in the form of an idea called EPU

I dont like the idea because then you would have a third class to specialize in and richard is right noone is going to want to be a "capped de-buffer"

most of you whine and try to make an excuse like, "well we APUs need a support role"...well guess what you have one to attack and debuff...not to mention if you do take DB out of PPU youre giving the PPU less of a job to do....Id like to see an APU without the aid of a PPU run up to a grim chaser and cast that shit on him 3 times....lets see how far he gets before hes toast....i say 2 casts and an "oh shit"...........

PPUs are fine.

APUs dont need fucking DB are you smoking crack?

[Q`alooaith]

and once again the point is missed totaly...



@thread starter.

Don't ever leave room for people to "think" your saying XYZ about monk's, just say what you mean, what you don't mean, the intended effect and why your doing it..


End@




Ok, EPU would cover, things that are not realy aggresive or passive.. Such as Damage boost, Anti Buff, Truesight, Parashock's, Boosters (const, Psi, Drone, ect), Psi Shield....

Agresive, would cover, only damaging spell's, Fire, Posion, Energy and Force damage's in the forms of Bolt's, ball's, lances, barrel's halo's and Beams..

Passive, would cover, Heal's, Booster's (resist boosters), Deflectors..


Now some exceptions, shelter would be EPU/PPU hybrid as a req, so would Raise dead and rezz spells, this would limit them from APU/PPU hybrids, or limit them to a lower level..

Now, looking at the idea, see how much more easly it ballences, with spell's of a powerfull nature in some ways needing ppl with both EPU and PPU would limit them to passive chars..


EPU/PPU hybrid would be similar to current pure PPU, in term's of spell's cast..

with the removal of MST, Psi's have enough points over to go into two skill area's without gimpage, anyone who stays pure will still be able to cap their spell's, but will be more limited in what they can do, Pure PPU's would still be able to heal, and deflector ppl, APU's would still be able to kill people..

This is a good idea..

[extract]

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
and once again the point is missed totaly...


ok wise one humor me....what was the point?

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by extract
ok wise one humor me....what was the point?


look up..


I had edited my post above your's by one, you dun get banned for little thing's this post is pointing you up so you can read the edit, and know that my above post was edited after you posted, be while you where posting, so you must not have seen it..

Note how much longer it it, go on look up.

[extract]

ok my fault I figured you were just being a smart ass.....anyways I reread your post and I must say I still come to the same conclusions...its a stupid idea...all youre doing here is giving some spells that were meant for a certain class to the other....for instance wtf is a PPU gonna do with an antibuff if he chooses to go EPU? debuff another PPU? oh fun lets just sit and debuff eachother and rebuff over and over again...and if you honestly think that APUs need a dmg boost youve got problems, giving an APU dmg boost is just a horrible, HORRIBLE idea, and whats funny is Im argueing a mout point cause its never gonna happen, giving an APU DB without changing the damage boost % or lowering overall APU dmg would just be insane

3 words

no fucking way

[Q`alooaith]

Exe, PPU/EPU hybrids would have asscess to damage boost, SC, Para, and Anti buff spell's..


this clearly put's anyone who want's to be passive into a place where they can do litttle to no damage, but are effective at their job..


APU/PPU would be able to heal and deflector, but not shelter or Psi shield..

APU/EPU, would get dmamage boost, Anti buff, truesight, and such, but would not be able to heal or deflector or shelter, but could Psi shield..

PPU/EPU, Shelter, psi shield, anti buff, damamge boost, Truesight raise dead..

Pure PPU, Delfector, heal, resist booster's.. and such passive spells..

Pure APU, Lot's of attack's no anti buff's, lot's of damage. weak defencses without support..

Pure EPU, Booster's, Psi shield Truesight, damage boost, anti buff's..


these changes would mean..

1, Pure's would have better damage %'s and RoF..

2, Hybrids would not be overpower..

3, PPU's would not be uber, since an EPU could debuff, and without EPU their's no shelter..


I had another idea before.. I make thread...

[extract]

Originally posted by Q`alooaith

these changes would mean..

1, Pure's would have better damage %'s and RoF..

2, Hybrids would not be overpower..

3, PPU's would not be uber, since an EPU could debuff, and without EPU their's no shelter..


I had another idea before.. I make thread...

this isnt a change....

first off pures ALREADY have better dmg and RoF

Hybrids ALREADY dont overpower

PPUs arent gonna be any less uber without dmg boost, and in fact I wouldnt lose dmg boost as i dont need anymore PPU i already cap my non rares...the only beneficiary of this is the APU as they would get even MORE dmg out of theyre spells with DB.....

its just not feasible NOR is it needed

[Q`alooaith]

you don't get it..

Pure APU would lose Anti buff's..


Pure PPU would lose shelter's and raise dead..



the idea is, monk's would have to go hybrid, which is better than not.. if an APU goes to APU/EPU, he's still defenceless, but he could go APU/PPU and have some form of defence..

[Omnituens]

cant say i agree with your ideas.

too much class tweaking already.

content and storyline before class tweaks.

[hinch]

thats basically a variation of my ressurect a hybrid speech i gave to someone on pluto :)

[extract]

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
you don't get it..

Pure APU would lose Anti buff's..


Pure PPU would lose shelter's and raise dead..



the idea is, monk's would have to go hybrid, which is better than not.. if an APU goes to APU/EPU, he's still defenceless, but he could go APU/PPU and have some form of defence..

oh beleive me I DO get it...it is just another make hybrids viable again....Im assuming that since it was never mentioned that the original PPU/APU effect would stay the same(ie they would negate eachother) but EPU would just be like MST it would stay just unaffected....and then you want to move shelter to EPU, you my friend are just not using youre head....that would give monks the power to be as STRONG as they were before....I think youre the one whos seriously missing the point....APU does not effect EPU therefore shelter dmg would not be comprimised by APU nor would say energy beam be comprimised by EPU....what do we have? another fucking hybrid problem, youve taken a bad idea and turned it into something retarded, because now that I truly see what you are saying(and not the thread starter) you are just trying to get hybrids back exactly as they were by replacing all the spells you miss into a subskill that has no negative effects...

APU/EPU - shelter, dmg boost, para, and a plethora of badass APU spells sounds like deja vu to me...

In fact youre idea will make hybrids stronger than pures because youre taking away the very spells that made pures strong - boosters, antibuffs, SHELTER(that belongs in passive no matter what you think)...fuck why not take all the catharsis spells and our heals too while youre at it

of course the more I look at youre thread where you explain classes it appears more and more evident you have no idea what youre trying to say either....cause youre confusing....a pure PPU would get Delfector, heal, resist booster's.. and such passive spells.....THEN you say a PPU/EPU would get Shelter, psi shield, anti buff, damamge boost, Truesight raise dead.....so this is kind of weird you make is sound like to get shelter you have to be PPU/EPU---but then go onto say the APU/EPU combo wont get shelter....so what is it man? a PPU spell or an EPU spell....try explaining a lil more in depth like make a list of what spells you think belong in each respective class....you also go onto to say pure EPU gets boosters....and also pure PPU...so like youre not giving me anything concrete to go on.....

[Q`alooaith]

you didn't fucking read it all..


shelter would fall into a hybrid area, of PPU and EPU, not pure EPU..



I just stopped reading after that point, since it's already been said that the APU/PPU penaltys would be removed, I'm just helping the thread starter get the idea over.

[Heavyporker]

I feel for you q'alooaith, trust me on that.

[extract]

I feel for you guys too, I mean taking all this time to come up with ideas that will never come into play....it must feel bad knowing the joke is on you

on a more serious note this whole thread is retarded, theres just no justifacation on why APUs need to have these spells accessable to them....

[japata]

Bleh. Just lower the effect of ALL psi spells by 20%, thus balancing HL wielding APU's to the level of capped CS's, raise the rof in apu spells to compensate... this resulting in the need to take cover once in a while to replenish the quickbelt with fresh boosters.

OR: Triple or quadruple player hitpoints, toughen mobs to compensate, add a pinch of damageboost for spies and PE's to make them more enjoyable in combat. And finally, give something really cool for all classes except monks, this way people would start playing with tanks again. :)

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by japata
Bleh. Just lower the effect of ALL psi spells by 20%, thus balancing HL wielding APU's to the level of capped CS's, raise the rof in apu spells to compensate... this resulting in the need to take cover once in a while to replenish the quickbelt with fresh boosters.



If we do the same damage as CS, then I want 100 con. :rolleyes:


Don't forget they lower rof on APU spells because of the bug where most of your hits wouldn't register if you hit too fast.



Originally posted by japata


OR: Triple or quadruple player hitpoints, toughen mobs to compensate, add a pinch of damageboost for spies and PE's to make them more enjoyable in combat. And finally, give something really cool for all classes except monks, this way people would start playing with tanks again. :)

:rolleyes:

[Neo LoneWolf]

A few points:

1 - The idea proposed is a complete re-working of the current way Psi works, as was stated originally. As such, it should be obvious that anything even similar to this wouldn't be implemented for a long time.

2 - The current situation with Psi *does* need something major done to it, this is just an idea as to the direction that such changes *could* take.

3 - There is more to invest in than just Epu, Resist Psi will also be functional, and (I would hope) desirable.

4 - There are more than just Monks to consider when tackling Psi.

5 - Re-reading the first post, it was indeed stated that the [+APU=-PPU] system would no longer be in effect.

6 - KK tried to prevent Hybrids even before they were over-running the servers, mainly because the idea didn't suit their view which compared the Psi specialties directly to weapon specialties. It is my opinion that this view is flawed (there are no H-C/M-C tank hybrids because the two specialties do not enhance each other).

7 - The [+APU=-PPU] system is a quick-fix. It is both ugly and blunt.

8 - I can be almost completely sure that this idea will never make it into the game.

9 - This thread was never started to discuss the itty-bitty details of the implementation of the idea. It was to spark a discussion about the fact that Psi is screwed, needs fixing, and a complete overhaul of the system is preferable to small changes. Mine was simply an idea thought-through to just short of numbers (as such things are ridiculous to discuss at this point), as food for thought.

10 - No, I'm not a disillusioned Hybrid player, nor an Apu wanting more. Monks bore me a great deal (though, it should be said, not as much as tanks). The idea posted originally is mainly designed to make monks interesting while fixing a broken system, and at the same time, giving every other class choice when it comes to the area of Psi.

Furrfu.

/me heads back to bed.