Simple solution to the Damage Boost controversy.

[Heavyporker]

I agree DB is an extremely offensive spell...

I firmly believe that all DB spells should be moved to the APU realm.

Just make it so that they EITHER:

- Cannot be used in a PvP situation

OR

- Only can be casted once on players, and for VERY limited maximum of 20% more damage.

That'd really put the "support" into APU support, and people would team with APUs if they wanted their hunted mobs to be DB'ed. And PvP would get more complexity into it, having the DB moved away from PPU.

And that's one less spell type for PPUs to worry about.

I don't care if PEs whine about losing Damage Buff - THEY can spec APU if they wish to - they're well capable of it.

The game's all about making choices.

[J. Folsom]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
- Only can be casted once on players, I believe this is already the case actually, though I'd have to try it out again to know for sure. I know it only worked once back when I had my "UB4R HYBRID*", but that's been a while.

Apart from that though, I wouldn't really mind, but I think it'd result in making APU damage far too high in case it's a solo APU. Even with a 20% increase, assuming 5 shots while damage boosted, with each shot being on average 50 damage without damage boost, would end up doing 250 damage, while with damage boost it'd end up doing 300 damage, which is a large difference.

*"UB4R HYBRID in this case meaning some wacko with the ability to cast holy energy halo and blessed heal.

[QuantumDelta]

I've discussed this one with Arc before.
There's no way in hell an APU should get DB in itself.

PEs ? - They have no deserved nerf here.

And, btw by saying PEs can spec APU you're kinda showing you don't know too much about the way that class works...heh, no.
No valid excuse, that's just a cock'n'bull copout.

Leave the spell where it is.

However.
I have had thoughts of a "Damage Charge" or "Over Drive" for APUs that would basically be a self cast APU buff like a berzerker mode.

Damage Boost is not, an APU Spell..

[Shadow Dancer]

Damage boost IS an apu spell IMO. I have no idea why ppus get it. Ppus get 3490238402347230847040238 spells with the "but it's passive" justification. Oh well nvm about that.........The only problem I see is pes losing damage boot.



I like and dislike the apu damage overdrive blah blah idea. But the problem is that i can be combined with damage boost.



"OMG NERF WTF"


:p

[Heavyporker]

Fine, THEN YOU COULD"VE VOTED "DB not usable in PvP" then, sheesh!

And PEs deserve to get DB taken off their hands - let's make PEs think about speccing APU.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Fine, THEN YOU COULD"VE VOTED "DB not usable in PvP" then, sheesh!

And PEs deserve to get DB taken off their hands - let's make PEs think about speccing APU.


They gain nothing from speccing APU. IMO they should get the ability to "charge" their weapons with the power of apu. So you could get poison liberator, or something like that. That way apu pes get more offense than ppu pes but ppu pes get more defense.

[QuantumDelta]

lol, what did PEs do to deserve a nerf?

God.
Rampaging APUs who already have overpowered tendancies are going to rule neocron now? o_O

[extract]

Im sorry but someone please tell me why APUs even need to have a support role....they are an aggressive class...get it??? A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E meaning thats theyre job to pummel shit...not boost it for the spy or PPU....damn this board never ceases to amaze me....you guys say KK is fucking up etc etc...but god forbidif you guys ran this game...there literally would be noone playing....i feel sowwy fo yo mudda

[Heavyporker]

It's not a freaking nerf, sheesh.

And PEs already get more than enough spells accessible to them.

[QuantumDelta]

It IS a Nerf because it is a REDUCTION of Maximum operating capacity.
EG;NERF.

Don't sugar coat crap when it's still rotten on the inside.

You're friggin nerf happy you are look at all your recent threads.

[Heavyporker]

WTF?

APUs are supposed to have a support function, not just straightfoward attacking.

And, look, if PEs want DB ( MORE DAMAGE ) they can spec APU, but if they want all the lovely defenses, they can spec PPU ( MORE DEFENSE)

Good god, like PEs don't already get a massive bonus from their PPU. Moving DB to APU isn't going to cripple anyone. Sheesh.

And I won't bother answering that nerf comment.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by extract
i feel sowwy fo yo mudda



:rolleyes:



Originally posted by extract
Im sorry but someone please tell me why APUs even need to have a support role....they are an aggressive class...get it??? A-G-G-R-E-S-S-I-V-E meaning thats theyre job to pummel shit...

Everyone can "pummel shit". Anyways KK defined the apus as "supportive" characters. It's not like I agree with porker about taking away Damage Boost.

[QuantumDelta]

It is a nerf.
You are _forcing_ PEs to either give up the damage that they have a PSI Level more or less especially for (If they were intended only to have shelter they would have PSI 25, but they have PSI 35, they were INTENDED To have Damage boost and Blessed Shelter), or forcing them to give up defence.
"APU PEs" would be pushed back to SPY LEVEL Gimp-dom.
"PPU PEs" would still have their defence, however their MAXIMUM Operational capacity which is the ONLY Thing that keeps them in line with the very best tanks in the game would be lowered.
HENSE NERF.
You need to learn a lot more about this game, OR you need to examine classes and spells and weaponry much more effectively.

Your "Quest to boost the APU" when it doesn't even NEED BOOSTING at least, not in this respect, is annoying because you're doing it at the unthought out cost of other classes.

[extract]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
And, look, if PEs want DB ( MORE DAMAGE ) they can spec APU, but if they want all the lovely defenses, they can spec PPU ( MORE DEFENSE)

thats just plain stupid...have you ever seen how unbeleiveably long it takes for a PE to case DB.....I have NEVER seen a PE use it in a PvP situation....take that shit outta here

[DonnyJepp]

Originally posted by Heavyporker

And PEs deserve to get DB taken off their hands - let's make PEs think about speccing APU.


Yes lets nerf PEs because they need it? :rolleyes:

In no way can you portray it otherwise.

[Scikar]

Damage boost is the definition of a passive spell. It does no direct damage at all, the ppu damages the target indirectly. That's how ppus should work, ppu doesn't mean purely defensive, it just means not attacking directly. That's why I think ppus should be a summoner class. Anyway, damage boost is fine by me as a ppu spell, and it makes perfect sense to me.

[Heavyporker]

Whoa, whoa - push APU PEs *back* into what? They weren't all that viable in the first place, but now... if DB was APU, then THEY'D be more viable...

And what's this about *the very best tanks*? I wouldn't think that DB mattered at that kind of level... for one thing, surviving that long against *the very best tanks* would be problematic to the casting of DB.


AND I am thinking about costs to other classes - the only classes at issue here is Monk and PE... You want PPUs to get the agressive spell DB.


And saying that PEs were INTENDED to get DB just because of their PSI level is just silly.

[Sleawer]

While I am not sure of the idea itself, and the exact role of this ppu module, I am a bit tired of these last "made in QD" comments.

Making changes over the specialized classes will have always a side effect over the PE class, and if we are going to refrain to make further changes due this reason, we might aswell sit in home and dont touch the game because PE's will complain.

QD, I gave you a margin to start answering these subversive paragraphs of apu's are overpowered; but I feel that your personal discussions with Shadow Dancer are brought to the point that you stopped to think in a rational way, and each reply to his posts is an excuse to throw a whole set of reasons against his class.

I can understand your personal griefs with each other, but in no way I am going to sit here watching how you use any chance to speak this bullshit about my class... because even when in part it can be true (and it has been discussed properly in another thread, with answer from the dev team), the way that you present (spit) it now is pure bull shit.

Keep yourself in calm, this is a friendly advice before I sum myself to this subtle flame war.

[Keiron]

Personally I think damage boost should stay as it is. My only problem is with Holy Para. That spell should either be removed or nerfed to the same level as all other freezers in game and do 0 HP damage.

[DonnyJepp]

Originally posted by Heavyporker

And saying that PEs were INTENDED to get DB just because of their PSI level is just silly.


Well, they did put it at a place where PEs can reach it but spies and tanks cannot.

Doesn't seem so silly to me to say it was intended to be used by PE's as well as PPUs and hybrids.

[Heavyporker]

PEs would still be able to reach it... just not the PPU PEs.

And just because something doesn't do damage doesn't mean it isn't offensive (case in point - the anti-shields)

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Whoa, whoa - push APU PEs *back* into what? They weren't all that viable in the first place, but now... if DB was APU, then THEY'D be more viable...
APU PEs don't exist.
Because you'd have to be absolutely stupid to use APU on a PE.
This will not change even if you move DB to APU.
DB would not make them viable, and DB is not an agressive spell.



And what's this about *the very best tanks*? I wouldn't think that DB mattered at that kind of level... for one thing, surviving that long against *the very best tanks* would be problematic to the casting of DB.
At the beginning of the engagement you cast DB, and step/walk in ways that should attempt to cause CS Aiming problems.
DB Casts and you run like a little shit, then casting TL 3 Heal on yourself while running around.
Then you begin to fight as you heal up ideally dodging the ...sometimes undodgable plasma.
It's a gamble, but damage boost gives PEs the ability (at the risk of death while casting it) to come close to matching the 100% accuracy CS damage if they hit regularly enough.



AND I am thinking about costs to other classes - the only classes at issue here is Monk and PE... You want PPUs to get the agressive spell DB.
Again, it's not an agressive spell.
Although I would say this was probably a matter of personal preference, the idea of APUs having DB when they don't have the defence to take advantage of casting it, and someone thought about giving APUs HP.
Shows here just how stupid some people on this forum can be.
Damage Boost is a passive spell simply because the only other class that can now reach it and use it, while being able to do damage, is the near dead hybrid, the Rifle PE or the Pistol PE.



And saying that PEs were INTENDED to get DB just because of their PSI level is just silly.
Untrue, since when EPU was around there were more than one damage boosts.
As far as I can discern when the other DamageBoosts and EPU was removed and PSI for PE upped to thirty five, Holy DB was made TL 29.
There is only really one reason that would be done and I don't think I have to spell it out.

[extract]

uh oh...I can tell where this is leading....

*counts down til the PE nerf thread*

[QuantumDelta]

Why does APU need to be boosted?
Sorry what? Last major thread I saw about APUs were how they were overpowered in certain situations.
Know what, this would make that worse.

As I said, APU PE is not, and will never be, viable.
You're using it as an excuse, and it's not even a VALID Excuse either.

[Progenitor]

As an ex-Hybrid, now APU monk, I would love to get my Damage Booster back.

But in reality, it really doesn't fall into the realm of the APU. Damage boost is a support spell. It works for all of the other classes. It enhances their damage output, or rather increases the targets damage absorbtion.

If it became an APU spell, then only APU monks would get to use it.

-p

[extract]

Originally posted by Progenitor
As an ex-Hybrid, now APU monk, I would love to get my Damage Booster back.

wtf??? why??? you do the most dmg than any other class thats just retarded...unless you just got a shitty setup...in which case you dont need dmg boost you just need to redo youre skill setup

[Sleawer]

Actually your last post QD gave me something to think.

The actual concept of apu/ppu seems each day even more flawed (nothing new heh). The idea of an APU PE shouldnt sound so crazy, but it would need a re-design of the apu spells and what is most important, the role.

Imagine a PE who can cast certain minor agressive shields (your buble idea) that cause burn/lighting/x-ray/poison/force damages, damage boost to help the power of the PE, vampire leech instead heal, and so on... this would claim the entire PSI skill of the pe into apu.

Imagine the passive PE, who can imbue his weapons with certain damage types (enr/fire/x-ray/force/poison), which casts heals and shields to protect himself, minor but effective stuns, control the mind of certain lesser creatures, and more (help me to renew the passive psi use)... the PSI of the PE would be devoted to ppu.

Now imagine this but in a bigger scale to apu's and ppu's...

....the ppu who can be like a sacred warrior (yes, effective offence capability), summoner, healer, imbue weapons, ressurrect, control the mind of powerful creatures (big mobs), enhances his combat skills and other's...

... the apu who is no longer the damage dealer (significant reduction of damage), but becomes an agressive warrior who controls the elements (fire, lighting, poison, force,...), which has mayor vampire spells, elemental auras, amplify damage on enemies, and much more...

Do you see this so imposible?
Two kinds of monks, independant of each other, with balanced roles between the classes, with no more unbalance like "the best offence/defence of the game".

Two kinds of PE's using the apu/ppu habilities equaly effective, with different but also fun styles.

Do you like this? I like... and the tank/spy class could be improved in the same ways... not in PSI, but there are so many ways, so many roles.... that I cannot count them.

Think for a moment the ammount of doors that we close with a simple NO.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Scikar
Damage boost is the definition of a passive spell. It does no direct damage at all,


Soulcluster and parashock do damage, so are they apu spells?


Holy antibuff does no damage.




IMO there are some spells that should be apu AND ppu. And damage boost could be one of them.



Originally posted by Heavyporker
PEs would still be able to reach it... just not the PPU PEs.




There's no good reason to take something away from them Porker. When it comes to class balance, you CANNOT have a "so what?" attitude if one class gets screwed in the process.


Originally posted by extract
uh oh...I can tell where this is leading....

*counts down til the PE nerf thread*


Only one person is asking for PE nerf, and that's porker.

[Progenitor]

Originally posted by extract
wtf??? why??? you do the most dmg than any other class thats just retarded...unless you just got a shitty setup...in which case you dont need dmg boost you just need to redo youre skill setup

I was just being greedy that's all. :)

I do do increadable damage as it is, now as a pure apu. If I had DB, I would do even more. :) Or I could lom a few APU skill points in favor of PPW points and have a great pool and increadable damage!

BTW, you did notice that I said we shouldn't get it.

-p

[Sleawer]

Porker just opened slighty the door of what actually could happen... of a different role.

At the moment, with the current system, it is not viable, and it is a nerf since no one will bother in making an unviable setup.

But instead being in denial, people should try to look further... maybe it's just me, and I dont belong to this game anymore; but atm I can see much more than simple words when people write.

I must have some imagination.. go figure.

[QuantumDelta]

I think, only way a APU PE would be viable is if that vampirific heal would be less than a TL3 Heal in terms of return but damages the enemy say 1.5 returns the 1 to a heal.

Problem with that is, it wouldn't be as effective and I couldn't see them making it runcast/fast like PPU TL3 Heal, because people would simply spam it...

The Fire Bubble idea, again, couldn't give as much defence as PPU PE S/D though it would supply some and obviously cause damage to those nearby.
Maybe a reverse PSI Shield effect until mana is drained rather than a 2 minute effect like S/D.

Problem with THAT is the PE would suffer from the problem it had before people like myself and vet and the other top PEs of this time came along - almost total lack of defence.

Putting the PE back to roughly the level defence of a well configured defencive Spy is not the way to go....which is why, a Balanced APU PE would probably not be that great.
It would suck I suppose, but it would be like Melee for tanks.
Good.....just............not so good for PvP.....

[Shadow Dancer]

Make the opposite of psi shield, psi sword. It's not actually a sword though, it could be a spell that drains your mana everytime you shoot but when you do shoot it's at increased power.

[QuantumDelta]

That was roughly the idea between the turbo-charge APU Spell I thought up...extra mana....don't really see the difference.....

[Heavyporker]

Why is it that everyone thinks that APU should only do damage?!

WTF? And you, arcadius, I would've thought you wanted an expansion of the APU's support role.

And why is it that people think ONLY APUs would use DB, and for themselves? PPUs supposed to be casting the buffs, the defensive stuff... APUs are supposed to be casting the detrimental stuff, taking down defenses, increasing the damage of others.

I know that many APUs would love to step further back and help their team... Many already have to do anyway, for the anti-shields, this would only flesh out THAT part.

Yeesh... Sometimes I think I'm the only one that's seeing further beyond APU than Holy Lightning and PSI PA.

[QuantumDelta]

No.
You're just going about it the wrong way.
Stop subtracting from other classes if you want to variate or boost your own.

I believe they named APU/PPU the Wrong names.
Nevermind though.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Why is it that everyone thinks that APU should only do damage?!




I don't know.


Then when we ask for PPu nerf they say "wtf think of ways to increase support roles for other people".


Funny indeed.



Originally posted by Heavyporker

WTF? And you, arcadius, I would've thought you wanted an expansion of the APU's support role.


I do, but not at the cost of other classes. I'm not selfish.



Originally posted by Heavyporker

And why is it that people think ONLY APUs would use DB, and for themselves? PPUs supposed to be casting the buffs, the defensive stuff... APUs are supposed to be casting the detrimental stuff, taking down defenses, increasing the damage of others.



yea I always thought that apus should get all the "enemy hindering" support spells. But apparently people feel that every single spell under the moon that doesn't do damage should be PPU.



Originally posted by Heavyporker

I know that many APUs would love to step further back and help their team... Many already have to do anyway, for the anti-shields, this would only flesh out THAT part.



You're right. But like I said, other classes shouldnt' get nerfed in the process if they don't deserve it.

Pes don't deserve a nerf or have anything taken away from that.

[Sleawer]

You are understanding what I say now QD...

But the tradeoff with the apu PE would be losing the defence of the S/D, but gaining a lot more damage and agressivity.

Yes, the fire bubble would act like an aura, absorbing part of the damage type of what it is made, and harm your enemies in a certain radius with the type of damage that it absorbs (fire/lighting/etc..), which would be added damage to the PE.

The vampiric touch would act like a heal, no problem to runcast it, neither to code it. Once it is casted, your have a 15 seconds healing power (at the same time you drain life from the enemy), exactly like a heal, but combined with the damage boost and the fire buble, it would make the PE to deal much more damage.

Imagine three versions of vampire leech; the first drain health from opponent and heal the caster; the second drains health/stamina and adds to caster aswell; and the third drains health/stamina/psi.

Just like normal/blessed/holy heals.. imagine that holy heals also add stamina and psi energy...

[Sleawer]

Th wrong names QD...? much more than that is wrong.

Aswell as I think that having a class which has "the best defence of the game" in itself and others is pointless and unbalancing; I also believe that having a class which deals the "best damage of the game" is retarded.

It was a matter of time that people complained about it.

[Heavyporker]

Ok... you're saying TAKING from other classes to my own.

I say that's false. I'm taking from a branch of PSI to another branch of PSI.


I'm not taking anything from any classes.

DB is damage either way how you define it.

The vast majority of PEs take PPU... BECAUSE THEY WANT THE DEFENSE.

They want to do more damage? Then let them take APU...

They would have to make a CHOICE between attack power and defense, just like any other monk.

Defense..... or Attack.... It's a choice.

Nobody's going to be losing out on it. Nothing selfish about it.

Sleawer got it right when he said people are in denial... they want everything that their classes had ( the reqless MC5 chips for one. )

[QuantumDelta]

It's pretty much how I look at PPUs being Manipulators of the gameplay, rather than just defencive.

APUs....well, they're pretty much straight damage dealers, at the cost of some of the weakest (still not that weak) defence in the game.

APUs and Spies are much alike, I would hesitantly call APUs a Ninja or Samurai type class.
dependant on speed.
does massive damage.
typically weak on defence.

heh....meh...dunno

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker

Nobody's going to be losing out on it. Nothing selfish about it.


Their losing out on damage boost, and if they want to use damage boost they lose out on buffs. It's a nerf porker, you may stick to the idea but don't try to sugarcoat the fact that it's a nerf.



As for ppus being manipulator of gameplay........hahaha that statement can be exploited to no end.

[Heavyporker]

omfg... APU's just a straight damage dealer... no wonder you're just clutching at your PE's PPU.


Good Crahn, save me....

As Shadow said, monks're supposed to be supportive.

The ability to do straight up damage is one thing... but every single damn combat class has that with the exception of tradeskillers...

Why is it that every time someone proposes a way, I said, A WAY, to expand the APU's supportive role, everyone screams it down with the key phrase " APUs r damage dealers, stfu noob! lol!11!!!"

There's even an option to turn off DB in PvP situations, so get off the situation of APUs being overpowered... If peope still want DB to be used in PvP, then make it stagger-cast only, at best, in addition to the limit of 10-20% damage increase on players.

And let's go over this again - APUs're far from being the top damage dealers - our pools are far too low and limited for us to be able to sustain our damage output.And even with PPU buffs, we go down quickly if we get anywhere near the front lines.


Antibuffing and DB'ing is from the back lines, just like PPU.


Overpowered, my smucker's slathered sweet fanny!


edit - shadow - YES - they have to choose between damage and defense, jeezus. It's not a nerf, not by a long shot.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker


The ability to do straight up damage is one thing... but every single damn combat class has that


Yea exactly.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


Why is it that every time someone proposes a way, I said, A WAY, to expand the APU's supportive role, everyone screams it down with the key phrase " APUs r damage dealers, stfu noob! lol!11!!!"


Actually I agree that you can't suggest ANYTHING for apus without people flipping out.

Like my anti-ressurection idea which would be an AGGRESSIVE spell.

But in THIS situation I can understand the outcry because pes would be losing somethng that they don't really deserve to lose. That's why I suggested making d-boost apu AND ppu. See, no reason to nerf the PE if there's no need.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


There's even an option to turn off DB in PvP situations, so get off the situation of APUs being overpowered... If peope still want DB to be used in PvP, then make it stagger-cast only, at best, in addition to the limit of 10-20% damage increase on players.



Apus are overpowered in terms of range IMO.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


And let's go over this again - APUs're far from being the top damage dealers - our pools are far too low and limited for us to be able to sustain our damage output.And even with PPU buffs, we go down quickly if we get anywhere near the front lines.




I agree and disagree. We are the top damage dealers big time, err in PvP. PvM is another story. :rolleyes:


And with ppu buffs we can actually take quite a bit of damage, almost like tanks.



Originally posted by Heavyporker



Antibuffing and DB'ing is from the back lines, just like PPU.



PPU at the back lines??? Where have you seen that? :p :p :p :p



Originally posted by Heavyporker

edit - shadow - YES - they have to choose between damage and defense, jeezus. It's not a nerf, not by a long shot.


It's just not...........fair. Also the apu pe wouldn't gain much. The only possible way that would work is if damage boost was much faster and had alot more range, that way pes could use it all the time easily.


But still, they don't deserve to lose damage boob.

[Heavyporker]

Ok....

Lesse, shadow... only way I see DB becoming dual-branched is to remove the PPU req... Odd, but still in the vein of what I said for the TL3 heal.

-------------------
Let's move on. There's often a split between fair and justice. In this case, justice without fairness.

--------------------
Well, fine, I sort of agree, as long as the resultant range nerf isn't on the order of the barrel range nerf. That happens, time for everyone to give up anything PSI related other than self-buffing.

Max range would be fine as long the best direct-target spells stay at or over 200m. Anything less and we're stepping on people's toes trying to cast on them.

--------------------
All right. You say everything centers on PPUs. Why not reduce PPU buff effectiveness by like 5 pts off the top lvl3 buffs, and 2 points off the level 2, and 1 off the level 1. Then tank/PE resists edge ahead in superiority. Let's put on our inq. gloves and feel the temperature rise.

Not enough? Then make max PPU "damage" % cap at 400%, lowering the strength of PPU shields and heals. Time to put on inq. helms, the temp's still rising.

Not enough? How much more can you trim the PPU's effects? I know, lets reduce PPU rof cap on anything by 10%... Meaning PPU spells with a rof of 100 goes down to 90, and PPU spells with a rof of 30 goes down to 27, and PPU spells with a rof of 6/min goes down to 5/min.... Time to put on the rest of our inq. armor and get some popcorn out to enjoy while we charbroil ourselves suggesting it.

We're all fucked.

Anything to do with spells gets killed because people here on the forums are selfish and entrenched to their super setups and equipment outlays.

-----------------

APUs don't get anywhere near enough of a support role ability.
PEs have more than enough defensive ability right now... DB will not reduce the PE's defenses, so get off that. PEs already get an advantage in their greater CON/STR, there's more than enough room for them to decide between APU/PPU.

We can't let ourselves get hung up on the just distribution of abilities just because a class *might* lose a favorite spell because said class won't spec for a different subskill

At the very least, implementing DB as APU would reduce a lot of cookie-cutterness.

[Clownst0pper]

And that's one less spell type for PPUs to worry about.


make that two, the holy paralysis will be around far less if the forum has there way...Another uselesssssss nerf post regarding a PPU spell...Y not just make us buffing machines, because thats oh so fun..

close this stupid thread..as written by another NC retard


:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Heavyporker]

Uhh...

For one, there's still the whole parashock spell branch...

And for another, what else is there for PPUs than to buff and ressurect? Uh?!

I don't think there's anything beyond PPU than buffing/rezzing.
The whole of PPU is defined as "enhance the self and others"

That means buffing. That means support.


And I won't react to that smackmouth remark. Smarten up, man.

[DonnyJepp]

Passive PSI Use


A character training this subskill can use passive PSI modules. An example of the simplest modules is the Heal module, which allows Runners to heal wounds. With passive PSI modules, Runners can influence the abilities of other Runners, both in good and bad ways. A passive PSI Monk is a welcome addition to any team, as he can protect his team members and weaken their enemies. This subskill influences the efficiency of passive PSI modules.


Aggressive PSI Use


Contrary to Passive PSI Use, this subskill is only used for attack modules. These range from simple fireballs and poison attacks to mighty energy lances. This subskill allows a runner to use aggressive PSI modules and influences their efficiency.








Looks like it's working as designed to me. I don't see where APU is defined as a support role. In fact, KK says "ONLY FOR ATTACK MODULES" in plain english in the skills guide.

[Heavyporker]

Shadow, you wanna handle this guy? I'm getting bored with statements like that.

[DonnyJepp]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Shadow, you wanna handle this guy? I'm getting bored with statements like that.


:lol: :lol: :lol:

Get bored all you like.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Ok....

Lesse, shadow... only way I see DB becoming dual-branched is to remove the PPU req... Odd, but still in the vein of what I said for the TL3 heal.



Make one with a ppu req and one with an apu req.



Originally posted by Heavyporker
--------------------
Well, fine, I sort of agree, as long as the resultant range nerf isn't on the order of the barrel range nerf. That happens, time for everyone to give up anything PSI related other than self-buffing.




Use quotes next time please. :P

Anyways I agree, I don't want a mega nerf on range.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


Max range would be fine as long the best direct-target spells stay at or over 200m. Anything less and we're stepping on people's toes trying to cast on them.



Over 200 is still too much

It should be like 150m IMO.




Originally posted by Heavyporker
All right. You say everything centers on PPUs. Why not reduce PPU buff effectiveness by like 5 pts off the top lvl3 buffs, and 2 points off the level 2, and 1 off the level 1. Then tank/PE resists edge ahead in superiority. Let's put on our inq. gloves and feel the temperature rise.

Not enough? Then make max PPU "damage" % cap at 400%, lowering the strength of PPU shields and heals. Time to put on inq. helms, the temp's still rising.

Not enough? How much more can you trim the PPU's effects? I know, lets reduce PPU rof cap on anything by 10%... Meaning PPU spells with a rof of 100 goes down to 90, and PPU spells with a rof of 30 goes down to 27, and PPU spells with a rof of 6/min goes down to 5/min.... Time to put on the rest of our inq. armor and get some popcorn out to enjoy while we charbroil ourselves suggesting it.

We're all fucked.



I can't tell if you're being serious, sarcastic, or quotign someone else.


:confused:



Originally posted by Heavyporker


APUs don't get anywhere near enough of a support role ability.





I agree and disagree. The ability to kill the most important piece of the chessboard makes up important. But I would like more "support" spells that have nothing to do with ppu. I would like to use non damage spells that aid my team if the enemy doesn't have a ppu, but currently anti spells is just for PPU oriented team or for the PPU himself.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


We can't let ourselves get hung up on the just distribution of abilities just because a class *might* lose a favorite spell because said class won't spec for a different subskill


True, but then you have to look at why said class won't spec for a different subskill. Perhaps if APU pes were actually viable, they might not complain. MIGHT not. :p



Originally posted by Heavyporker


At the very least, implementing DB as APU would reduce a lot of cookie-cutterness.

How so?



Originally posted by DonnyJepp

Aggressive PSI Use


Contrary to Passive PSI Use, this subskill is only used for attack modules. These range from simple fireballs and poison attacks to mighty energy lances. This subskill allows a runner to use aggressive PSI modules and influences their efficiency.

Looks like it's working as designed to me. I don't see where APU is defined as a support role. In fact, KK says "ONLY FOR ATTACK MODULES" in plain english in the skills guide.


KK said that apus were for support, it's not my fault that contradicts any other explanations they have gave in the past. Secondly, if it's only attack modules then why did KK give apus anti spells?

[hnlecter]

No, this would make apus even more stronger than they are.

[Sleawer]

Donny everyone knows the definition of the apu/ppu according the very beginnig of the game... e.g. the manual, or Patch #163 (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=198&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)
The fact is that most people disagree with the way of KK to handle these roles... I disagree at least.

[Heavyporker]

Quoting takes too damn long, I have to type fast before I get even more to talk about than I already have. People keep posting in this thread before I finish a post :lol:

---------------

I'm serious in what I said about trimming the PPU spell, because that's pretty much the only way to moderate the effect of PPU short of lopping off whole spell types or removing PPU entirely.

Let's see someone suggest something different from what I said in reducing stat boni, PPU damage %, and PPU spell RoF.

----------------

And why an APU and PPU version? WTF? I said "as in what I said for TL3 heal" as in, remove the PPU req, making only PSI/MST/mana the reqs.

----------------

Lesse, APU PEs won't have to rely solely on using APU spells.

But anyways, you want APU to be MORE viable, including for PEs, let's see those vampiric spells, the elemental auras, and everything else I've suggested for APUs. Leaving the first level versions available for PEs...

Then let's watch as PEs stay PPU.

As I've said, they HAVE to choose between attack and defense. Most everyone chooses defense. That doesn't mean DB should be available to those that want PPU.

-------------------

And why would APUs be overpowered, hlecter? Spell it out. Spell every letter out, would you? I suppose in the back and fro of this thread everyone somehow missed going over point you brought up.

[Shadow Dancer]

He meant they would be overpowered with DB, which is true. We would be doing 200 damage easy, on average per hit.

[Sleawer]

If apu gets damage boost, the first step is reducing the damage of apu modules... consequent to this would be the renew of the spell system and role of apu's.

I am not sure of it Porker.. at the same time I suggest all those ideas, there is also the fact that people likes the system as it is now.

The changes come when the mayority of players see a flaw in the system, and want something renewed.

The first change mentioned regarding apu's is the cut of the range to something more accordingly with the mid range fighter role. Then if Lupus solves our mana problem, either increasing the cap or fixing boosters, then perhaps our damage should be lowered.

Then, with damage lowered, range decreased and mana fixed, giving apu's damage boost, elemental auras or vampiric touch could be an option.

As apu's are now, the spell would add a fair addition to the apu role, but also would overpower our damage.

[Heavyporker]

We do more than that on mobs already. So it doesn't matter in that situation.

If the DB becomes non-PvP, as I stated in an option on this very thread (I wish people would see that, dammit.), then that issue becomes moot...

If, as in ANOTHER option, that DB is usable in PvP, the effect would be weakened to only 10-20% damage increase, then I highly doubt you'd be getting unbalancing with it. Remember... you have to slow down to cast it, meaning the other guys that want to hurt you get a better chance to... So that balances out.

And 200+ dmg?! WTF are you testing that on? Naked spies? I wouldn't be suprised if that was the case.

[Shadow Dancer]

Porker I can and have done 140 damage to tanks before. With DB i have done over 200 sometimes.



I remember doing 180 to a tank Dbed by a PE.

[Heavyporker]

Well, then, shadow, honey bunny, look up and choose the option " DB not usable in PvP"

[Mr Friendly]

yah, ok, lets give the apus somthin that will farther increase the hella dmg they already do :rolleyes:

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Well, then, shadow, honey bunny, look up and choose the option " DB not usable in PvP"


No, because I feel it should be usable for PeeVeePee.

[FBI]

Then people will scream to nerf the APU instead of ppu.

just leave one problem alone if you can't fix it, dont just push it
to another class... btw i'm assuming your apu?

FBI

[Heavyporker]

Then what's wrong with lowering the % of damage increase when cast on players, as I said?

You're going by CURRENT DB standards, I would think.

edit -

well, fbi, how astute, I think I've mentioned I was apu only, what, 500,000 times? I really must get around more.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Then what's wrong with lowering the % of damage increase when cast on players, as I said?



Because there's no need. :p


I GUESS you could do that..........................but it would make DB in general less effective that's why I do't like that option.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


well, fbi, how astute, I think I've mentioned I was apu only, what, 500,000 times?


rofl

[Scikar]

There is no problem with Damage Boost atm. I don't see anything wrong with it in the hands of a ppu.

I would much prefer parashocks to be changed, if you take damage boost away from ppus that just gives them ammo to argue that they need parashock.

[Heavyporker]

Parashock should do no damage at all, and Holy Paralysis's speed reduction % needs trimming.

DB does not relate to Parashock.

[Scikar]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Parashock should do no damage at all, and Holy Paralysis's speed reduction % needs trimming.

DB does not relate to Parashock.

Yes it does. Didn't you read my post? If you nerf DB or take it away from ppus, and then try to change parashock, they will all cry that DB was nerfed, it's not fair to take away parashock, they're all gonna quit, we're all gonna be sorry, etc. etc.

DB = fine, don't change it.
Parashock = needs nerfing.

[Heavyporker]

Look, it makes no sense that parashock does DAMAGE, in the first place, at least in a PvP context.

Fix the parashock THEN move DB. That counters your statment, being order-dependent.

[Scikar]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Look, it makes no sense that parashock does DAMAGE, in the first place, at least in a PvP context.

Fix the parashock THEN move DB. That counters your statment, being order-dependent.

OK. End of discussion, see you again when parashock is fixed.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Scikar
they will all cry that DB was nerfed, it's not fair to take away parashock, they're all gonna quit, we're all gonna be sorry, etc. etc.




lmao, Scikar is right.

[Heavyporker]

That'd be interesting to see.

PvPers like shadow and many others would cheer like crazy...

Levelers would slump to the ground and weep bitterly...

Tradeskillers would gasp and run for the nearest imp store...

[Darkborg]

i have read some odd things in here.

"not a PE nerf":rolleyes: Sheesh that just shows an astounding lack of insight here. You either loose dmgboost or shields IE loss of abilitys IE Nerf.

"its an agressive spell" o_O well so is boosting an apu with psi booster 3 .It grants more dmg indirectly doesent it well then that must be an agressive spell as well.
As is a heal and shields BTW they increase someones lifespan thereby indirectly increasing the dmg they can do, IE offensive spell.:rolleyes:

"Give it to apu's" Do you have any idea what this would do gameplay wise ???o_O .
Can you say Massive overpowering8|. this would almost be the hybrids all over again.

Doesent sound like you have played anything else than apu.

Also ppus would now loose any Directly dmg dealing spells. Remove para and dmg boost ooh great how will they ever do epics. :rolleyes:. FFS its bad enough they have almost 0% chance of doing them the way they were intended to be done.

Anyways remove paras and give us runcast on our spells. but leave dmg boost where it is. it fits into the game system. and also the system is relatively well balanced atm ( - parashock does need a nerf). But in that case do something about SC or introduce something else first. IE get a Doy bot AI for the sc's or something. and do soemthing about their dmg as well. because no dmg sounds kewl when you hear the ppu term. In real life ( ingame) there really isnt a way around at least a little dmg dealing from time to time.

[VetteroX]

No way in hell should APU get Damage boost... I cant even imagine how much that would suck. They do enough damage without it, with it they would be WAY too powerful. DB may be offensive, but the spell in is still in a supporting role, so should stay ppu, and PEs dont need to be nerfed by having this spell stolen.

[Heavyporker]

Ah so APUs shouldnt have a supportive role, huh?

[ZigZag]

well i spose u could take away their attack spells and give em lots of transport - then they could carry stuff for ppl, that would be helpful.

NC is as balanced as Ive seen it ever - make HP not spamable - then stop - but of course it wont stop there.

[Heavyporker]

I completely forgot about this, but recent threads have reminded me of my earlier thread proposal to move PSI Shield to APU.

All the reasons from that thread apply - PSI Shield drain mana, means APU can't attack, Gives APU tactical retreat, PPUs hate using PSI Shield, good spell for APUs, et cetera.

With that in place, and perhaps the requirements nudged down, APU PEs would have another viable reason to spec APU...

Now with the scales of mid-level APU evened up on both branches, Shadow Dancer, do you think it would be at all unfair for PEs to have to choose between APU and PPU if the Damage Boost spells and PSI Shield were moved to APU?


P.S - and good gods, people, would you even look at the poll options - either DB becomes unusable in PvP, or it only increases damage by a small fraction.

DB doing 57%+ in PvP is just nuts in any case.

Yeah, ZigZag... if HP rof changed to something like 20/min, then PPUs would think twice about spamming.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker

Now with the scales of mid-level APU evened up on both branches, Shadow Dancer, do you think it would be at all unfair for PEs to have to choose between APU and PPU if the Damage Boost spells and PSI Shield were moved to APU?




It would still be unfair. THere's just not enough reason to be apu pe. Also, psi shield is ppu spell IMO. Their should be a psi "sword" spell that makes the enemy take damage when they hit you, that would make more sense for apus.

Their would have to be other apu spells that would be useful to PE, before you can make the APU pe pathway viable.

Until then, DB shoudl stay ppu.

[QuantumDelta]

since hybrids are gone KK should unphuck PSI Boosters, then PSI Shield would be useful for anyone that wants to spec for it again.

[Heavyporker]

Shadow, tell me what PPU uses PSI Shield. Why would you consider it PPU?

As I said, the PSI Shield is an APU's Armistice spell, cover his ass if he wants to back off from a fight. It doesn't let him keep fighting because it's working off his mana.

And the "sword"'s a dumbass word to use. Call it by its proper name - "Thorns"

And besides, the possibility of APU PE with stealth using poison spells doesn't appeal to you? Shame. That was my idea of an APU PE's setup... constant unyielding atttrition... it'd make anyone that ran afoul of me weep in shame at having to choose to run away or fight me all day.

And besides, APU PE would be viable for those that didn't want to spec DEX points and go into front-line combat themselves, like a Glider Pilot or Repairer tradeskiller or something along those lines. Then they got a clever backup weapon in an APU lance or something. Plus the first few APU AoEs come up into a PE's range, meaning he's got an analogue to the rocket pistols.


You're thinking in concrete terms of PvP combat using conventional templates. Fight the cookie machine, Shadow, fight it! You almost broke free once, you can try again!

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Shadow, tell me what PPU uses PSI Shield. Why would you consider it PPU?

As I said, the PSI Shield is an APU's Armistice spell, cover his ass if he wants to back off from a fight. It doesn't let him keep fighting because it's working off his mana.

And the "sword"'s a dumbass word to use. Call it by its proper name - "Thorns"



rofl

First of all I meant psi shield is PPU in terms of RP. It doesn't make sense as an apu spell.

Secondly, I said psi sword to fit the "theme" of the names. :p



Originally posted by Heavyporker


And besides, the possibility of APU PE with stealth using poison spells doesn't appeal to you? Shame. That was my idea of an APU PE's setup... constant unyielding atttrition... it'd make anyone that ran afoul of me weep in shame at having to choose to run away or fight me all day.


Except his poison would suck ass. :p



Originally posted by Heavyporker


And besides, APU PE would be viable for those that didn't want to spec DEX points and go into front-line combat themselves, like a Glider Pilot or Repairer tradeskiller or something along those lines. Then they got a clever backup weapon in an APU lance or something. Plus the first few APU AoEs come up into a PE's range, meaning he's got an analogue to the rocket pistols.


No his apu spells would have horrible rof range and damage.




Originally posted by Heavyporker
Fight the cookie machine, Shadow, fight it! You almost broke free once, you can try again!

I'm no cookie, as you will see once i get my hands on a kami chip.

muhahahhah...........*stays quiet*

[Heavyporker]

But you'd glady impose cookiehood on others?

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
But you'd glady impose cookiehood on others?

erm not at all.


:confused:

[QuantumDelta]

"Move spells"
Christ.
He didn't get the point at all did he...

Things APU PE would need;

Spells that they can use proficiently (currently there are none).
Spells that give them some form of sped up regeneration of HP.
Spells that give them protection.

For the love of God.
Learn;
DO NOT STEAL SOMETHING FROM ONE SKILL SET OR CLASS TO POWER ANOTHER.

[MAFIA-Biggin]

the DB is a 100% passive spell... you cant attack anyone with it... only increase the dmg done to them.. so its a supporting booster for combat. also if you take this away from the PE then up their dmg without it... as is dmg boost is only used by PPU's in PVP anyway... i dont see PE's cop a squat too often cuz by the time it casts their dead. so i dont see it being any different if it was APU being made to use them...

also on the matter of psi shield... no PPU uses it... its something you put on a PPU so he dont have the mana to heal or rebuff so if anything lets make this an APU spell and call it "mana drain"

well thats my 2cent so reply with what you think

[QuantumDelta]

PEs use it Biggin.

DB too, actually, I can be seen casting DB on occasion, it just happens that spell shares a slot with my stealth tool, so, rarely in op wars.

I've been considering swapping spy1 for DB again....
I need more slots -_-
My PE needs more fucking slots then my PPU

[MAFIA-Biggin]

I know that PE's use it my pistol PE has 60 pis use so im pretty quick with it... but its not like i see someone try and cast it on me when i rush em with a fire apoc or a CS... they got no time!

dmg boost should stay PPU because its used to help the team the PPU is with... if it was APU then the class doing the greatest dmg would be doing even greater dmg... thats not even close to balencing things out...

Biggin

[QuantumDelta]

Aye, you're 100% right mate.
You wouldn't guess porker is an APU though would ya :P

[MAFIA-Biggin]

yeah i havnt read forums in a while because of how much flaming goes on after 1 page... that and everyone is always trying to help their class instead of makeing things more fair and more fun

LONG LIVE NEOCRACK

[Original monk]

I didnt read the whole post bust i wonna tell ya this: you APU's gotta stay of our PPU's spells, this means that DB stays PPu and that the paralysis stays as it is, but i find that KK has to give you APU's much better new rare spells, like level 110 poisonbeams and attackspells that cause drugeffects on PPU's and viable anti PPU spells no antiboosts that take like 98% of youre mana etc, yust plain antippu spells like a pierce/force beam or sumthing like that, maybe also new beams that look like the copbotplasmariflebeam and that do combined x-ray/poison, maybe fire/xray damage, or new cool looking spells with double swirly's or i dont know what, ya yust need new stuff, a phew barrels and 2 singlehitrares wont do the job, ask for new spells dont try to rip off spells from other classes :P

[Heavyporker]

Good lord...

quote:
"Things APU PE would need;

Spells that they can use proficiently (currently there are none).
Spells that give them some form of sped up regeneration of HP"

QD, do you even understand the concept of APU?

PEs have plenty of INT to give them fairly high PSU, more than decent rof for their usable spell level. That'd also work with their PPW to give them mana.

And for the love of CRAHN, would you get off this regeneration bend?! APUs cannot, I repeat, CANNOT heal themselves, aside from medikits! That was the original sacrifice they made to be able to wield attacking power, FFS!

Dammit.

[Scikar]

If psi boosters were ungimped, your defense would go up QD, and I don't see any justification for that. Also it makes it viable for ppus, who have enough defense as it is. All I see is giving PEs and PPUs better defense, the two classes that don't need it? :confused:

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Scikar
If psi boosters were ungimped, your defense would go up QD, and I don't see any justification for that. Also it makes it viable for ppus, who have enough defense as it is. All I see is giving PEs and PPUs better defense, the two classes that don't need it? :confused:

I agree, it would be a bad idea. Also Apus would be able to holy antibuff one after the other asap.

[Heavyporker]

Ahhh... hidden agendas everywhere... the paranoia!

I agree that insta-fill boosters would be unfair, however convienent

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Good lord...

quote:
"Things APU PE would need;

Spells that they can use proficiently (currently there are none).
Spells that give them some form of sped up regeneration of HP"

QD, do you even understand the concept of APU?

PEs have plenty of INT to give them fairly high PSU, more than decent rof for their usable spell level. That'd also work with their PPW to give them mana.

And for the love of CRAHN, would you get off this regeneration bend?! APUs cannot, I repeat, CANNOT heal themselves, aside from medikits! That was the original sacrifice they made to be able to wield attacking power, FFS!

Dammit.

Did you even read my post...doesn't look like it, you quoted it, and still didn't read it........

APU Concept?
I've told Arcadius about a thousand times it's a FLAWED CONCEPT.
No ability to heal? LOL.
If APUs had the ability to heal / defend themselves better than a few crappy resists and some armor, I'd consider using them, however, at the moment, they're significantly lower than what I would have in a class.

I was listing things the APU PE should have.
Simply put, without shelter, and blessed deflector, and heal, the PE would never, ever, be able to match up against any other class or mob in the game, without some serious adjustments.
That, is why You Are Wrong.

edit; Heh, from Ohio, I thought they spoke english there?
Sad really since you're obviously isn't that good, or, at least not your reading skill........

[Heavyporker]

Oh, lovely, I love ad hominem attacks.

Funny. I thought that APUs were holding their own at the moment even without the ability to heal themselves.

And I firmly stand on the belief that an APU PE would be viable, with or without personal heal/shelter/deflector/psibooster/healsanctum/heatresist/soulcluster/strappedinppu/fivetanksinfrontofyou.

[QuantumDelta]

It would have to have it's offence upped by a factor of 2 to 5 times.

They wont do that.

[benz]

wtf is this, r u trying to make APU more uber

[Heavyporker]

benz.... read the thread fully.

[benz]

no u read it 2 me

[Heavyporker]

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know you were illiterate...

I suppose I'll have to code up a text-to-speech reader for ya, how's that?