You See, The Problem Is....

[Mingerroo]

That monks were 'fixed' the wrong way. If they had made it so that HYBRIDS are the only ones viable, instead of trying to make PPUs and APUs the only ones viable things would have gone a lot more smoothly.

The basic principle is to use the same spells, and the same PPU affects APU and vice versa system as now. The only difference is that all PPU spells would become ENTIRELY defensive, and pure APUs would be made weaker than they are now. This way, much like trying to go "all the way" with rifles and losing agility, the balance would be found in the hybrid. Such a PPU spell change would be to remove the damage on parashock.

Of course a few spell TLs would have to be moved around but the result would be that although PPUs can parashock you they cannot hurt you with it. They can then not have such uber powers that if they parashock you and have anti-stealth on, they can easily damage boost you and kill you. With just defense they would be uber defense, and JUST uber defense. A pure APU would then have the upper hand of being pure offense, able to wipe you out pretty much as quickly as they do now. However, you could wipe THEM out too.

So hybrids would be a more viable class in that it would exceed in neither of these two areas but still do well, and an APU could team with a PPU to make an awesome fighting machine :)

The reason for this thread is that PPUs can single out someone (such as if they are on their own), remove any possiblity of escape (including stealth), and then use the exceedingly large window of time (they cannot be hurt by this one person) to damage boost them, and then use the damage boosted parashock to kill them. PPU spells just SHOULDNT be agressive. APUs are fine but seen as PPUs are the unbalancing force a balanced hybrid is the solution.

BOTTOM LINE
It shouldn't be APUs and PPUs it should be APUs and HYBRIDs. Hyrbids doing reasonable damage and able to take reasonable damage, and APUs doing HUGE damage and dying fairly easily. PPUs would be those people who have no wish to fight, and solely want to protect, ress and love. :)

Please post your views but stick tightly to the point of this thread please :)

[edit] Of course such a huge change would warrant a complete skill release.

[Mingerroo]

If you are going to vote no please have the dignity to post your reason other than "don't nerf me". Thanks :)

[edit] Grr i bet both you "nos" are PPUs and didn't read the thread thoroughly enough and just thought "no, don't nerf my class". Seriously, waht I'm saying is that you shouldn't able to kill people as pure PPU, and that pure APUs are fine, and so the point is to bring back a toned down hybrid, that can do fair damage and fair defense, without being superb in either. This way PPUs are truly passive, APUs are truly agressive (already are) and the hybrids fill the gap for those pure PPUs that feel they need to be able to do damage. o_O At least post a reason PLEASE.

[Cass]

Originally posted by Mingerroo
If they had made it so that HYBRIDS are the only ones viable, instead of trying to make PPUs and APUs the only ones viable things would have gone a lot more smoothly. Well, I think that's exactly what they were trying to encourage with the monk cloaks. Notice there's no "hybrid" cloak.

In PvP (the theory is) you want the best possible attacks and buffs, and those are only available to the pure APU/PPU. Either all the masses of pure PPU/APU's are doing constant OP fights/PvP or they are planning to.

In PvM hybrids are the best by far (IMO), because they can solo better than the pures. A 30% hit in attack power means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING when you're soloing a WB or Grim, especially when you're self buffed/healed.

In fact I've been debating LoMing my pure PPU to hybrid. My 4-slot holy heal works damn damn good as it is now, and who cares how fast you cast a buff or rez (all we're really used for anyways). I'm thinking I could sacrifice the 30% hit on my heal, and still be able to buff/rez without a problem (neither of them are really effected by the 30% hit). Then I'd have some decent attack power as well. Parashocks ain't an issue, because the PvP enemies I truly fear use antishock drugs anyways. (That's why I truly don't understand all the "nerf the holy paralysis" threads, but hey, I realize I might be ignorant).

Personally, I'd like to see a Hybrid Cloak/PA. Have the highest TL one give an additional 10% nerf to APU/PPU. Because the way I see it, it's the hybrids that were and still are the true picture of how a standard Neocron monk should be, and those pure APU/PPU guys are the "over the top" guys who sacrifice other possible traits to be the best at one thing.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Mingerroo
That monks were 'fixed' the wrong way. If they had made it so that HYBRIDS are the only ones viable, instead of trying to make PPUs and APUs the only ones viable things would have gone a lot more smoothly.


I agree, that probably would have gone more smoothly.



Originally posted by Mingerroo


The basic principle is to use the same spells, and the same PPU affects APU and vice versa system as now. The only difference is that all PPU spells would become ENTIRELY defensive, and pure APUs would be made weaker than they are now. This way, much like trying to go "all the way" with rifles and losing agility, the balance would be found in the hybrid. Such a PPU spell change would be to remove the damage on parashock.



APus are weak enough as it is IMO.



Originally posted by Mingerroo
A pure APU would then have the upper hand of being pure offense, able to wipe you out pretty much as quickly as they do now. However, you could wipe THEM out too.


You can't wipe them out now?


Originally posted by Mingerroo


BOTTOM LINE
It shouldn't be APUs and PPUs it should be APUs and HYBRIDs. Hyrbids doing reasonable damage and able to take reasonable damage, and APUs doing HUGE damage and dying fairly easily. PPUs would be those people who have no wish to fight, and solely want to protect, ress and love. :)


Actually that's pretty much my thought as well. lol@last comment.



Originally posted by Mingerroo

[edit] Of course such a huge change would warrant a complete skill release.

Of course.


Let me get this straight, kuz i'm a little fuzzy on your idea because you stated a couple of confusing comments, you want only apus and hybrids to exist with hybrids balanced?

[Mingerroo]

Yes. :) Exactly, APUs are FINE. They can kill and be killed PERFECTLY (perhaps a little tweaking in their favour but not much). PPUs now are sort of extremely high level hybrids, because they can do everything a PPU back in "the day" could do as well as damage boost, remove stealth and pound hell out of you with an agressive spell. My solution to this is to make a PPU an offenseless class, but make Hybrids viable and balanced for those who want to be able to self-buff etc and still fight to a maintainable degree.

A 50-50 Hybrid should do a little less damage than a tank of the same level, and be able to take a little less damage than that tank. Then scale things from there to the point where only pure PPU warrants uber defense, and pure APU offers killer offense.

I could state this as an equation:

1 pure APU offense = 1 Tank offense x 2 (ish)
1 pure APU defense = very little (like now)

1 pure PPU offense = NONE (not very little or anything like that, all PPU spells should be pure defense, including that little damage parashock does being removed)
1 pure PPU defense = The uber shizzat they have now

1 Hybrid Offense = Tank Offense(minus a little because they dont have to aim for as long)
1Hybrid Defense = Tank Defense

I just feel that saying NERF THIS, NERF THAT, is getting us nowhere, and an implementation of this reworked but still fundamentally unchanged system for psis is the best route to take to balance the game and not complete alter the monks way of playing :). Thanks for the input :)

[edit]AND THOSE WHO SAY NO, PLEASE GIVE A REASON SO THAT I MIGHT REWORK MY IDEA INTO SOMETHING ACCEPTABLE TO YOU AS WELL :) JUST SAYING NO IS RUDE :p

[Shadow Dancer]

I think KK is afraid of bringing back hybrids without fully balancing pures first. Or maybe they feel hybrids are fine the way they are?

[Mingerroo]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I think KK is afraid of bringing back hybrids without fully balancing pures first. Or maybe they feel hybrids are fine the way they are?

True, but to balance pures means to take away their offense (in my opinion) as it is the only way to make them fair again. Taking away their offense means that a balanced hybrid has to be in place for any of those PPUs who do not want to be pure defense to fall back on. Without that, many PPUs will be severely pissed off and angry and such that they have been "bullied" into taking a pure APU role to do any damage.

Hybrids should be developed on test server only until they are ready to be implemented along with a removal of damage-dealing PPU spells (or just taking the damage off them such as parashock). Once the entire process is complete the system should be moved to retail, the worst thing they could do is to rework it piece by piece, constantly changing the monk system and really upturning all the monks. It needs to be a whole, secure, balanced repalcement for monks when it comes off the test server.

My personal belief anyway.

[KidWithStick]

hybrids are fine the way they are...dead.

simple as that.

[Heavyporker]

I'm not good at math, but...

quote:
"1 Hybrid Offense = Tank Offense(minus a little because they dont have to aim for as long)
1Hybrid Defense = Tank Defense"


should be more like:

Hybrid offense = 0.75*tank offense
Hybrid defense = 0.75*tank defense

Then it'd be proper all around.

[Mingerroo]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
I'm not good at math, but...

quote:
"1 Hybrid Offense = Tank Offense(minus a little because they dont have to aim for as long)
1Hybrid Defense = Tank Defense"


should be more like:

Hybrid offense = 0.75*tank offense
Hybrid defense = 0.75*tank defense

Then it'd be proper all around.

Thats good too, I'm just avoiding the ensuing convo on specifics when my point is not the exact proportions but the general idea. Another idea I had was to bring back exotic psi use.

This time round exotic psi use would put negatives on PPU and APU much like they do each other at the moment.

Agressive spells = HIGH DAMAGE, no defense
Exotic spells = A mix of good damage and good defense spells
Passive spells = NO DAMAGE, superb defense

Of course, this would work quite well in the same way that spies can be a PISTOLER or a RIFLER or a DRONER and mixing makes quite a poor combatant.

PPUs would be healers, APUs fighters and EPUs the equivalent of hybrids. Then you would have the crazy people who still use the old system of PPU and APU hybridness.

Just a thought :) Feeback?

[LTA]

I always wondered... the original monk in the cave

Did the monk behind him have blue eyes and buff the one in front... giving him a psi 3 and enabling him to pick up the soldier?

________________________________________

I think hybrids would have been better they'd have kinda been like a Good Defense Offense char, even the balance to match tanks etc.
I think without the para, a bit os shelter deflect tweaking and a bit of dmg tweakin they would work better than the pure combos and remove more of the dependence on one char,

[Heavyporker]

bleh, that'd be shit, mingeroo - that won't work AT ALL. Good Crahn, read what you just said. How the hell would that work?



No, if EPU comes back in, it's gonna be s it was - the branch of exotic, special-effects spells...

the DB, the anti-buffers and cleansers, truesight sanctum, parashocks would become EPU. Ressurect stays PPU.

PPUs would get the buffs and shields.
APUs get all the damage-causing spells.

[Mingerroo]

But yeah man, it wouldn't be called exotic psi use it would be called "something psi use, or hybrid psi use". It would then contain toned down versions of many reasonable spells from both 'specialist' groups. I suppose i really shouldn't have called it exotic. sorry :eek:

[Heavyporker]

Uhh...

But....

didn't....


that made no sense to me!

"reasonable and toned down versions" sound shit when you consider there's the damage % ALREADY on both branches of spells, hence you can decide how strong you want to be in them!


I'm sorry, but that simply won't work, not when hybrid now already has been implemented better than the idea of "hybrid psu"

[Mingerroo]

True.

Well the problem is definitely not APUs, they are fine, its that Pure PPUs can do damage, which just isn't right. The system needs to be reworked so that they can still level effectively while not being viable one on one characters.

[Heavyporker]

Hm. You're talking about parashock, correct? Then, yes, remove PvP damage from parashock.


But if you're talking about something like PPU monks using weapons, then that's something else... I don't really know what to say about that.

BUt if you're that upset over it, propose, say... Perhaps... a 50% penalty on specced P-C, R-C, H-C, and RCL if you have over 80 PPU or something, making it shit to even consider doing any damage as a PPU.

But first, it's critical that epics and runs and missions have to be changed to accomodate PPUs and tradeskillers and pacificists.


Sure, make them harder (the moral path's almost always harder), but at least make doing them viable.

[.Cyl0n]

yea they should bring hybrids back to a "normal" lvl

like 75 % of a tank's offence
and
100 % of a tank's defense

that would be ok i think and still MUCH better than it is now ( especially the dmg is total... crap imo )

i totally agree with the rest mingoo.. good post !
parashock shouldnt do any dmg and the loss of rc / pc dmg above a certain point of ppu is a good idea too :)

.cy

[Marzola]

My problem with having hybrids be 75% tank offense and 100% tank defense is why wouldn't the hybrid be a tank instead, and what would the incentive for being a hybrid in combat be versus having an APU/PPU combo for combat?

Right now this concept seems kinda sketchy, though I agree monks should have the ability to be a hybrid, though just not the hybrid of before.

I think that instead of judging how much damage/defense a hybrid should get compared to a tank, it should be compared to the current APU's and PPU's. Instead of saying something like 75% of a tank's defense and 75% of a tank's offense you guys should be comparing it to 75% of a PPU's defense and 75% of an APU's offense. I'm just using these numbers as an example, so don't start flaming me or anything by saying that those numbers would be too weak/powerful

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Marzola
My problem with having hybrids be 75% tank offense and 100% tank defense is why wouldn't the hybrid be a tank instead, and what would the incentive for being a hybrid in combat be versus having an APU/PPU combo for combat?

[/B]



errr what would be the incentive to beign a hybrid versus an apu/ppu combo? You're comparing one person to 2 people?


:confused:

I don't understand, I think you can find out the answer to that question just by asking.



Originally posted by Marzola

I think that instead of judging how much damage/defense a hybrid should get compared to a tank, it should be compared to the current APU's and PPU's. Instead of saying something like 75% of a tank's defense and 75% of a tank's offense you guys should be comparing it to 75% of a PPU's defense and 75% of an APU's offense. I'm just using these numbers as an example, so don't start flaming me or anything by saying that those numbers would be too weak/powerful

well the tank is actually balanced, :p.


IMO it cannot be 100% tank defense. Because the hybrid can heal, which is a big perk. He can also ressurect. He should getl ike 75% defense, especially since he can heal like I said.

[Heavyporker]

Well.. considering that APUs're supposed to be more damaging than a tank, and PPUs're supposed (and in fact, DO) have more defense than a tank, so a tank would be a good baseline to work on a hybrid from...

The point? Hybrids still have more range than a tank (more INT, for one, as it refers to INT tradeskills, and vastly more PSI, which refers to team supporting ability).

[Mingerroo]

There are many reasons to be a hybrid rather than a tank. They can heal others better, they can just click and shoot rather than aiming... They get to get defenses in different areas (mainly energy). Also, that is just an example of a perfectly 50-50 hybrid. Some ppl might want to be 75% PPU or something like that. Its all about choice and customisation :)

[Mingerroo]

And have you noticed that there are 16 nos but no reasons? o_O Obviously they didn't read where I specifically said please post a reason otherwise I think they are just skimming through and not really understanding the idea.