Creation, and power...

[Q`alooaith]

Have a thought for a second, does the power to create give power, since with creation you do not have control, so without control you have no real power, though you might create the means to control, thouse same means must also have the power to control you, so I say, creation is not power, and neither is destrution, as when you destory you end it's exsitence, though you never controled it either..


So is true power fear? If I cause you to fear my power of creation that I might create a device of your destruction, or do you fear the power of destruction, and not fear the source of it..

[Lucjan]

You already know the answer:

"God's only hold the power to create, and as such have no power, as true power comes from control."

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Lucjan
You already know the answer:

"God's only hold the power to create, and as such have no power, as true power comes from control."


Don't quote me as I'm editing my posst...



and anyway, do you agree with me, or do you feel that with creation you gain power.

[Lucjan]

No problem, just tell me next time you at editing ;-)

I do agree with you. As creating something is for sure power, controlling it is just superior. For example someone creates something, but you do control it. Very clear that you would be the more powerful then.

/EDIT: As for destruction, destriction basically is nothing other then control.

[Q`alooaith]

No, destuction is not control.

Look at anything, you can destroy it, but you only have the power to end it, you can not make it move, or do anything and as such you do not hold power over it, only the power to stop it..

[Lucjan]

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
No, destuction is not control.

Look at anything, you can destroy it, but you only have the power to end it, you can not make it move, or do anything and as such you do not hold power over it, only the power to stop it..

and isnt that basically just another form of control or part of controlling something? Destruction for me is just another process you're in control of, not a separated event.

[Q`alooaith]

If I can control an angry mob, and make they do my bidding whatever it may be, then I have control..

if you can destroy the mob you can get rid of them, though you have not controled them, you have mearly removed them.


If you can create an angry mob, but can not control it, then you have not power either..



Though creation and destrution are form's of power, they are nothing compaired to control utter..

Through manipulation I have control over other's with fear spread form my manipulated I gain a sort of power over other's which spread fear of desrtuction and thus more control, though it is less powerfull..


it all depends on how you use it.. I have manipulated people into thinking things they rejected before, then turned and created fear by making them second guess themselves.

Fear is control, creation and destruction cause fear, so while niether is control, together they form the basis for control.

[Heavyporker]

fear would only have power if the created had the capacity to fear.

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
fear would only have power if the created had the capacity to fear.


but without fear there can be no control, so the creator would be creating what can not be controled...


and anyway, fear can take many forms..

[Heavyporker]

Oh really.

What if the creator did not seek power?

And the creator created creations, creations created without fear and without the capacity to experience any fear?

As if, the creator created dirt. Dirt is not alive, not animate, not sentient, and hence, cannot feel anything, much less fear. Manipulate it through fear, then, Q'al!

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Oh really.

What if the creator did not seek power?

And the creator created creations, creations created without fear and without the capacity to experience any fear?

As if, the creator created dirt. Dirt is not alive, not animate, not sentient, and hence, cannot feel anything, much less fear. Manipulate it through fear, then, Q'al!



It fear's, but you do not understand the way it fear's...


imagine for a second, that even when you die, you move onto more so dirt know's there is nothing to fear on this earth, dirt only fear's the death of the world it is part of as it means it is no more, and since it can not affect this change it chooses to ignore it, like an wise man, not fearing death as it stalk's him in the night, aware of his end he chooses to live without fear untill he is gone...

So as dirt, it will not fear, for it know's that no force that can destroy it can do so without destroying itself..


hey heavy, you posted after a mod closed the kami chip thread..

[Richard Slade]

The only things that is to be called "Power" is that of the one who makes a desicion (damn can't spell that word)..

The one who can choose his own way (or others) is the one who has power. The power of freedom. He can create, destroy and control.
That is the greatest power
There is no God but man.
Every man and every woman is a morningstar.

[Q`alooaith]

There is no such thing as freedom

[Shadow Dancer]

Oh christ. Not another "there is no reality, etc.......something about existence blah blah" thread. :p :p


Anyways, define power first. I mean, how would you define it?

[Richard Slade]

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
There is no such thing as freedom

Why shouldn't it? We have the freedom of speech
The freedom to love
The freedom to think
The freedom to choose what every new day will hold
That my friend, is as far as we will ever get with freedom
But still, it's freedom.

[Edit] Read my first reply for a definition of "power"

[Q`alooaith]

What is freedom..


what is power..



without clearly definded limit's there is nothing...




without people to see me, who am I?

am I any less if I choose not to be, or am I more..

[Clyde]

One cannot control or end the existance of any object but only influence the course of possibly changing the path of that object. Hence one does not posses the ability to control

[Heavyporker]

Philosophy is eternally ambiguious. That's why I don't really like to debate it... I mean, hell, who the fuck can answer the "What is the purpose of Life"?! Most likely not even God, since he'd have to explain himself!

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Heavyporker
Philosophy is eternally ambiguious. That's why I don't really like to debate it... I mean, hell, who the fuck can answer the "What is the purpose of Life"?! Most likely not even God, since he'd have to explain himself!



that's also another question..


can a god(if you belive in such tales) create a stone large enough that she could not lift it herself?




point is, it turn's around on it's head so often..


it's pointless to contiune maybe I could back ya into a corner IRL, since I'm good at word game's and trickery of that sort's, letting people talk themselves into bad spots..

[Richard Adregen]

Q: If you believe such things, that one is a paradox. An eternal series of
"God can't NOT do anything"
"So he CAN create a stone he CAN'T lift"
"God CAN lift the stone"
"God CAN'T create a stone he can't lift"
"God CAN create such a stone."
Etc.

As for the power and control thing: In my opinion, the power to destroy something is to hold complete control over it. If someone has the power to kill (destroy) you, unless you are fearless or have a deathwish, do you not obey him?

RA.

[Shadow Dancer]

What if you try to fight him? Then they can't control your spirit.

[Heavyporker]

Ahh, richard... infinity... you gotta love dealing with infinity problems...

such as omega... it's the last number in an infinite series of numbers, right? Omega can't exist since there's no end to the numbers, right? Hmm?

[Richard Adregen]

Okay Shadow, for your sake, let me be broader... An individual example is indeed vague... Sorry.

If someone holds the power to destroy an entire race of beings (and the beings are aware of it), then would not most, if not all of the beings obey that person? Of course, some would resist, but he still holds control over the largest chunk of the race.

That sort of control, however, would not go on forever, unless you had the ultimate doomsday device that could blow up everything with one blast, and held the world hostage WITHOUT a cancel button. Those that do resist, will usually find a way to topple the one who holds power (and for now, control).

Prove to me another way of holding control and I will concede. :)

PS. Infinity OWNS you all! :p

RA.

[Shadow Dancer]

But you don't control them completely, or "directly" rather.

[Richard Adregen]

True. But show me something in which you DO control someone completely and/or directly. Mine was, IMO the easiest way to control almost Everyone.

RA.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Richard Adregen
But show me something in which you DO control someone completely and/or directly..


Yourself.

[Richard Adregen]

LMAO. Point taken. Now show me one in which you have complete control over someone else or multiple others completely and/or directly.

RA.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Richard Adregen
LMAO. Point taken. Now show me one in which you have complete control over someone else or multiple others completely and/or directly.

RA.


But is that the only way you define power? Control of others?

O_O


IT also depends on perception. If somehow I could control someone and "make" them do what I want directly(let's just say like a charm spell or something, yes I know magic doesn't exist) that would be power indeed. But if someone could influence or "indirectly" control someone, that could be seen as power as well because you're still getting them to do what you want without having direct control.


O_O

[Mantus]

The concept of “control” is a human and animalistic one. It actually doesn’t exist.

If you create a system where everything did your biding. A machine for example. It would not have free will. Therefore you would not “make” it do your biding though “control”, you can only make it do your bidding by reprogramming it.

If the creation does have free will then control is impossible. For the object with free will by definition has the power to deny your control no mater how small the percentage of that chance may be. Therefore you don’t have “total” control for there is always a chance that your will may be denied.

Take the Orwellian world of 1984 as an example. While the controls may seem total and self-sustaining. There are will always be a chance that they will break. Therefore The Party in the world of 1984 never had totally or “godly” control, it merely had a large amount of control.

So if you would preffer to use the concept of a higher being in an example. A god would either have total control by creating a world where everything is preplanned and runs like a machine. Or would have no control because the beings it created have free will and so by definition have the power to act outside it’s influence.

[Richard Adregen]

Okay, I concede my point. Shadow, yours is more valid than mine. BAH! :p And that is not how I define power, it's how most DO. I prefer to think of power and control like you do.

RA.

[Gotterdammerung]

Try these for some answers


Existentialism (http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/refpages/RefArticle.aspx?refid=761555530)

Objectivism (http://www.aynrand.org/objectivism/index.html)

I'm leaning towards closing this, but I'll let it ride a while more

[Richard Adregen]

Why so? This is a valid discussion, right?

Anyway, those sites are pretty nice, very deep and there's some good info in them. I still have to read them fully, but from what I've seen they could add to the discussion here...

RA.

[Gotterdammerung]

My point posting the links above was that there are other sites out there where you will probably find much more engaging debate and information then you might get here.

[Q`alooaith]

Originally posted by Gotterdammerung
My point posting the links above was that there are other sites out there where you will probably find much more engaging debate and information then you might get here.


Yea, I'm not a very good debater and talker well typer, I'm a much better talker..




Nothing is real except me, you are all my dream...


But without a standard of reality, what is me, and am I just a dream?