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View Full Version : APU support strategies. Yes, barrels.



Heavyporker
20-09-03, 01:30
*aside* Shadow, I know you don't like barrels, but seriously, you HAVE to re-consider (well, at least the non-rares) barrels in a strategic frame.

Ok.


Barrels.


Sure, they might suck for open spaces and twitchy brawls...

But I'm conviced they'll be key for APUs to use in OP fights. Barrels are the second most important support function for APUs.

Most everyone has cheapened the role of APU (debuff and Holy Lightning). It's time one of the older APUs passed down a bit of his knowledge. APUs aren't supposed to be just Holy Lightning and Holy Antibuff. They're far more nuanced than people give them credit. APUs *do* have a viable support role.

Barrels are to be used stratgetically. Yes, they can be used tactically, but their effectiveness are far amplifed with a bit of forethought.

I'll talk barrels to you again. After all, I'm the barrel lord.

- Barrels stack. The ticks will overlap. This means you can lay down the pain, gatling-style.

- Barrels can be used just as well against single runners as groups. You just have to be more discrete in the application.

- Barrels are AoE. If you gotta hold a spot at the end of a corridor or an opening between walls, lay it down. Don't full auto them. That's a waste of mana. Just lay one or two down every 10 seconds. That'll make coming in or out riskier for your opponents, and you get to have most of your mana for direct-fire spells.

- Barrels have duration. You have high RoF on other spells. Cast one or two fire barrels first, then switch and direct attack those that come in through it. The resultant blinding of your targets works in your favor.

- Poison and Fire barrels are DoT stackers. Notice the words DoT and stackerss. These barrels may be weak, but as first strike weapons, they can give you the attrition edge you need to take down a particularly nasty bastard. Attrition in this case means trimming off their high health BEFORE they get to you. Barrels will do that for you.

- If you ever go up against a PPU trying to help his buddies, lay down a few fire barrels. Even if he doesn't get hurt much by them, he'll have a lot harder time trying to track his teammates (fire barrel stacks fire, meaning the fire will down his visibility a lot longer than direct-hitting fire at him)

- You know that PPUs can't always run around forever - they have to slow down... especially when trying to help their teammates. ESPECIALLY when ressurecting. Barrel them to make them re-consider.

- Poison is fun to throw around. PPUs may have antidote spells, but they only have so much space on their QB... and trying to sort the spells out costs them time... and their lives. Also, not everyone bring antidote spells to fights, especially OP wars when they don't expect it. Plus, everyone suffers under the illusions that PPUs have all spells available to aid them. Their reliance on the PPU will be their undoing.

- Energy barrels are like stuntraps... They take out your legs and slap you around. You want to make the PPU move and spoil his spell? Lay it down. You don't need the TL3 parashock bolt or whatever they're talking about.

- Energy barrels are the most focused and the most straight-forward. You want to give pain someplace and fast, use this. Shelter shave a lot off it, but stacked energy barrels will still take a lot out of someone. PPUs hate me when I lay down stacked energy barrels in an enclosed leveling place with them in it. If I was serious about energy barreling them, they'd be near-death, not at half-health.

- Poison barrels are rather dissolute. But they stack poison extremely well. Poison may be weak nowadays, but stacks lining up to hurt you is nothing to laugh at. Antidote pills only give the target a few more seconds to live if they stand in a pile of poison barrels. I think Shadow Dancer recalls a certain fight with a GM.

- Fire barrels have huge AoE. They'll take up half the zone if you're not careful with them. And there are 70% chances you'll light yourself up casting them. And they're rather weak, but their use isn't damage (not purely, anyway). Their use is to set everything on fire, making vision worthless while they're in use.


(barrels apply to PPUs as well)
PPUs... You're forgetting that you have a barrel - parashock barrel. The damn thing is next to impossible to see. It's not holy paralysis, but it's AoE and a superb way to sneak a parashock on them. You guys think that Holy Paralysis is the only decent para available. You don't need to glue them down. When people get hit by anything other than HP, they most likely notice that they move well enough ( oh, what was that? a beggar stunner?) and often ignore it. That can be in your favor. Just a trim off their speed most likely is all your teammates need to get a lock on them. I don't think anyone bothers to pop a anti-para for anything less than Holy Paralysis, and even if they do, the properly stacked parashock barrel will spam the shock for you, giving you a bit more time to buff your mates up.





APUs don't need parashock, not when they can effectively blind their opponents.

Attrition also works in the APU's favor more than any other class since they can stack DoT better than any other. Forget stacking direct-fire spells. In most cases, they're just too weak unless you have very high frequency on them.



Goddammit, why do I see so many simple-minded, "go in full auto and die" APUs. My reserved, support-giving play style may be more suited to PPU, but dammit, I sure can handle my APU well enough to be a worry. There's far more to the APU than Holy Lightning and a strapped-on PPU. Sheesh. What a bunch of wankers.

Now, the current range nerf on the barrels render them all but impractical to kamikaze APUs, because APUs won't survive getting close enough to cast enough barrels to make a difference in most PvP situations. I agree the the previous range on barrels were too high (comparable range to beams), but now, its nuts - it's melee range now. Make them top out around 125m (similiar to blasts) and we'll all be happy.

Another thing, PSI Blasts have GOT to be reworked - their AoE is far too small for them to be worth SHIT in anything other than shooting plants or swamp dwellers (why, because they can't move, that's why!) - the arcing bolts means they're slower to hit than other spells and can't be used in enclosed spaces. Expand the AoE of PSI Blasts to the radius of barrels, then it'll be peachy - APUs would get the choice of short-range but long-lasting/stacking barrels and the long-range one-tick blasts that do all their damage up-front.


That should suffice for now. Now go forth and practice. With any luck, we APUs will regain our honorable past of being wizards of terrifying force and subtlety, not the mere simpletons we are now, used as hammers to flail at PPUs.


*aside* Hell, this isn't my whole bag of tricks, Shadow. I'll probably talk more later when I can get back ingame. Or not. I rather like to keep secrets.

Shadow Dancer
20-09-03, 01:44
Range is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar too low.

Non rare barrels do wayyyyyyyyyy too little damage. You have to cast like 8 to get good damage.


Rare barrels, :rolleyes: , have too low rof. Firestorm and thunderstorm..............chances are if yuo're using these in team battles or op wars, chances are the enemy is buffed and these will do very crappy damage. Only pestilence is "SEMI" useful, and even then.........The only way the rof would be justified is if the rare barrels were three times as strong and had ONE tick, instead of 3 ticks(assuming someone is stupid enough to stay in it).

That's my opinion. Their not useful enough, I don't want to hear how one time you saw an apu at XX op barrel the ug and because of that ONE time you think barrels are useful, BAH. They should be useful more than .00000000005% of the time.


Also i just can't stand barrels in general, what a horrible form of AOE. GRRRR

Heavyporker
20-09-03, 01:46
I think barrels are a brillant piece of monk AoE.

I'm thinking that PSI Blasts would be more suited to your idea of AoE, though, only if they had their area upped.

PSI Blasts work too much like tank AoE (rockets = fire, malediction = energy, tox grenade = poison) for me to really like them.

Shadow Dancer
20-09-03, 02:05
Originally posted by Heavyporker
I think barrels are a brillant piece of monk AoE.





ewwww



Originally posted by Heavyporker

I'm thinking that PSI Blasts would be more suited to your idea of AoE, though, only if they had their area upped.




Yea and maybe a higher TL version too. But psi blasts would help. Also holy multi energy bolt and holy multi lightning are KIND of ok, but their low TL AND it's extremely hard not to hit yourself.

joran420
20-09-03, 02:28
I wish barrels worked by targeting a runner and radiating out from the runner(ala EQ...i know EQ is crap but AoE for wizzie was good)

Q`alooaith
20-09-03, 02:35
I like my barrel's... If you want to run away down a norrow coridor and don't want ppl to follow you so quickly, energy or fire barrel..


Posion barrel is very effective, if you know how to use it, stack two down the posion beam to hell and back your target, since anti posion pill's work from the bottom up, your posion beams stack to the top, they drop the barrel's ticks and suffer beam's ticks..


Barrel's in op war's.. When that PPU goes to rezz a team mate, don't shoot the body, barrel it, since barrel's AoE and DoT, you can get the PPU and the bod into range with one, even if stays to rezz him they are both taking damage, which means, when the guy stands up, he'll lose health and die very quickly, even holy heal santum does not heal enough to keep somone alive in a holy energy barrel unbuffed from 10 HP...


I've run into a para barrel once, it's like running into water suddenly, once your out it's ok, but in it your a sitting duck..

BTW..

Crahn Holy ParaShock Barrel PSI=75 PPU=102 MST=71 96 enr stun 80% 35 sec

Holy paralysis PSI=102 PPU=116 MST=84 75 enr stun 80% 35 sec

from Neocron.ems.ru


Barrels do need a range boost, somthing compairable to halo's or lances, but right now half the time you cast em your standing in or two steps from the edge of it..

Heavyporker
20-09-03, 22:01
Actually, not halos/lances - I can get like 150+ meters on them, I think...

I said on par with blasts - ie - 125 or so meters. And then the PSU curve would most likely make any monk with only 100 PSU get about 60-80 meters on their spells - still vastly better than the 40ish meters we're getting on our barrels now.


and I said the same thing about barreling the PPU whenever he tried to help his team. :rolleyes:

And I doubt the poison barrels' poison stacks are that much weaker than the poison beams...

Shadow Dancer
20-09-03, 22:32
Originally posted by Heavyporker

And I doubt the poison barrels' poison stacks are that much weaker than the poison beams...


They are, I tested it.

Heavyporker
20-09-03, 22:37
shit.

that has to be fixed. everything poison is just too damn weak.

ESPECIALLY now that everybody and their mother got antidote in one form or another.

Q`alooaith
20-09-03, 23:06
Yes, but remember, a PPU can anti posion santum away a posion beam, but the barrel will just add another on...



barrel's are pretty good for manking a PPU stop rezzing, but maybe give them a top range of 100 metres or so..

Shadow Dancer
20-09-03, 23:12
Um, anti-poison sanctum removes 8 stacks IIRC.

mdares
21-09-03, 00:20
8 stacks? i've had it remove 10+....

but anyway, barrels are great for when your outnumbered and just need to kill people...

my speed-demon apu (70+ ath / 110+ agil) run casts barrels and i just go into 3rd person, run, and cast 54/min... kamikazi style... just keep casting and running... works wonders when your outnumbered and alone... just remember to pop a medi :D

and yeah barrel range needs to be upped to like
75-100 m atleast... curerntly its just crap...

Scikar
21-09-03, 00:25
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Um, anti-poison sanctum removes 8 stacks IIRC.

No, it removes them all.

Btw, holy toxic barrel does do a lot more damage than toxic beam, but the stack ticks are bit slower than 105/min like you can get on the beam. Not to mention the fact that no barrel does enough damage to justify the fact that all you have to do is jump 2m and you're safe. Also the fact that with any of the rare barrels you hit yourself 9 times out of 10 due to the quarter Wyatt Earp range.

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 00:27
Heh heh heh.... Ol' Shadow remembers me kamikazing with my barrels, doesn't he? Heheheheheheh!


Yup, laying down a good bunch of fire or poison barrels will take a few with you, most likely... even the PPU if he's unlucky... and even so, he'll still have a job of it trying to get his team back up.

Rizzy
21-09-03, 00:27
its odd, I used to use holy toxic barrel to deadly efficiency when i was apu. however that was before the cath sanctum, antipoison era :/

mdares
21-09-03, 00:36
i've killed ppus on accident with my kami barrels... felt bad cuz i was outta rezz0rs...

most people (ppus) think - "o a holy energy barrel; hahhaah wit me uber holly heal and holy shelt it will do diddly squat!"

2 ticks later... ppu - "erm... OMFG ITS OUT DMGING MY HEAL AND SHELTER!!!! HAX!!!! KOSKOSKOS!!!!111oneoneone"

one man's ignorance is another man's safety margin.

Sorin
21-09-03, 00:46
Hey Arc, do you mean barrels are useless in PvP, PvM, or both? Cause when real monks were still kick ass (before recent hybrid nerf patch), I capped my hybrid in no time at all in the graves with my 5 slot holy energy barrel (what luck, 5 slots on the one and only time I built it). With Holy Antidote and Blessed Heal Sanctum, and with the 5 slot Holy Energy Barrel, it was essentially solo power leveling. I actually went from base 98 psi to capped in one day, by myself.

Barrels in PvP on the other hand...............:( Best use I had for it was at Nemesis Lab. Other than that. . . . . .

Shadow Dancer
21-09-03, 00:56
Originally posted by Scikar
No, it removes them all.




lame.



Originally posted by Scikar

Btw, holy toxic barrel does do a lot more damage than toxic beam, but the stack ticks are bit slower than 105/min like you can get on the beam. Not to mention the fact that no barrel does enough damage to justify the fact that all you have to do is jump 2m and you're safe. Also the fact that with any of the rare barrels you hit yourself 9 times out of 10 due to the quarter Wyatt Earp range.

"alot more than toxic beam" sorry that's not true at all.


Due to my low poison resist 2-3 stacks of poison beam(capped) will kill me. I can barrel myself 2 times and KNOW that i'm not going to die. And that's 6 stacks btw, when normally someone wouldn't even STAY in the stack.

Barrels would be alot more useful if it was 3x the power and ONE tick instead of spread out over 3 stupid ticks.



Originally posted by Heavyporker


Yup, laying down a good bunch of fire or poison barrels will take a few with you, most likely... even the PPU if he's unlucky... and even so, he'll still have a job of it trying to get his team back up.



No it won't. Fire barrels are rediculously weak.






Originally posted by Rizzy
its odd, I used to use holy toxic barrel to deadly efficiency when i was apu. however that was before the cath sanctum, antipoison era :/


You mean before THE poison nerf?



Originally posted by Sorin
Hey Arc, do you mean barrels are useless in PvP, PvM, or both? Cause when real monks were still kick ass (before recent hybrid nerf patch), I capped my hybrid in no time at all in the graves with my 5 slot holy energy barrel (what luck, 5 slots on the one and only time I built it). With Holy Antidote and Blessed Heal Sanctum, and with the 5 slot Holy Energy Barrel, it was essentially solo power leveling. I actually went from base 98 psi to capped in one day, by myself.

Barrels in PvP on the other hand...............:( Best use I had for it was at Nemesis Lab. Other than that. . . . . .



Barrels are "ok" for pvp, but still borderline useless. In my opinion of course. :p

Rizzy
21-09-03, 01:21
No shad, i mean before everyone and their mother had a cath sanct or antipoison sanctum but after the poison nerf.

Q`alooaith
21-09-03, 01:29
I think posion should get de nerfed a little...


BTW, you can put barrel's on wall's high enough that you can duck under them, but anyone not ducked will be hit.. a very good tactic if you need to get away without killing yourself..


I'd not like to see the damage all up front, barrel's should be DoT, three tick's is good for energy, fire should be six and posion twelve....this gives posion enough times to stack a lot, energy does more upfront, but don't last as long and fire last's longer but it's also DoT tick's are very short..

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 01:29
Well, all I can say is that Monk aoe on the whole needs tweaking... right now, its only truly viable in PvM...

In PvP you're playing dice even bringing along a barrel. First roll would be if it comes in use at all, second roll would be if you get a good situation to use it, third roll would be if you do enough damage/effect justify it, fourth roll would be if you survive casting it.

Shadow Dancer
21-09-03, 02:09
Originally posted by Rizzy
No shad, i mean before everyone and their mother had a cath sanct or antipoison sanctum but after the poison nerf.

That's odd. My capped toxic barrel must be mega stacked to do "decent" damage, and that's to someone with 0 poison.





Originally posted by Heavyporker
Well, all I can say is that Monk aoe on the whole needs tweaking... right now, its only truly viable in PvM...


I agree.

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 02:29
Hmmm... changing the barrel duration to ticks instead of time...

I rather like that...

But barrel ticks really should come much faster than 5 seconds each.

WAY too easy to run through without getting hit.

Q`alooaith
21-09-03, 02:52
barrel's shoudl tick every seconds they exsist, but only get so many tick's so posion would last 12 seconds maybe with energy lasting three, fire lasting 6 or maybe swap energy and fire..

Mr Friendly
21-09-03, 03:00
took u guys this long to finally figure it out :rolleyes: :)

EDIT: dont wanna spam or feel like replying so ill edit ur answer here

barrels are perfect when it comes to PvP, whether its at an OP or just a ganking. stacking 3 poison beams takes what? about 2 seconds at most? when casting a barrel u only have to do once and bam, casted in the right area hes got at least 2 or 3 stacks, as barrels have a wide aoe.

cast a barrel then let it stack, in the mean time, use ur HL.........or if u just like poison, hit em more with the poison beam. in other words, by doing this, ur hitting ur opponent with both weapons at once.:)

Q`alooaith
21-09-03, 03:02
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
took u guys this long to finally figure it out :rolleyes: :)


figure what out..


please say what you refering to as I post a load a shit's..

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 03:05
I very much like the idea of a barrel tick hitting each second.

But the current strength levels have to stay the same for each tick... weakening it just to spread it out would fuck it all up.

Q`alooaith
21-09-03, 03:09
Originally posted by Heavyporker
I very much like the idea of a barrel tick hitting each second.

But the current strength levels have to stay the same for each tick... weakening it just to spread it out would fuck it all up.


yes same damage level, some barrel type's should last forever, or very long, other's should last a very short time..


I think Fire should burn out fastest as it's got bigest AoE, then Energy, then posion should last a long while as it's got diddly all AoE..

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 03:13
If fire has to burn out fastest, then the damage has to be upped WAY up... right now, its too weak, even with high stats on holy fire barrel... and I have to bow to Shadow's enterprise with the Holy Firestorm, since I don't have one.

Right now... everything DoT with monks are too weak. We only have the attritive advantage if we have more than DoT to go with and we live LONG enough to utilize the advantage.

Q`alooaith
21-09-03, 03:17
that's a point... and has given me another idea..


Make fire DoT give a small drugflash, just a little so one stack makes your leg's wobble a little, but three of four stack's would be like drinking two cron 55's.. but onyl when burning...

RP reason's your flaling around trying to put yourself out..

ballence reasons, your not helpless, but your not unaffected as with fire now..

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 03:20
hm... leg tremors in addition to the fire-blinding...

I LOVE IT!

Q`alooaith
21-09-03, 03:22
Originally posted by Heavyporker
hm... leg tremors in addition to the fire-blinding...

I LOVE IT!


and it's also spawned another idea....


drug haze from posion... now I'm not talking wobbly legs here, just the flash effect so it blur's your vision a bit.. only a little though or it'd piss ppl off.

Heavyporker
21-09-03, 03:23
yes, that works.

poison should... especially poison barrel, you can SEE the fumes wafting off the ground when you cast it, ffs!