View Full Version : I don't want to be a frickin' cookie.
I was NF'ing (my PE) with a friend of mine who not only is fairly skilled himself, but also has a well set up PE, and he was wiping the floor with me (I'm not bad myself, but my character sucks). I eventually started to get kinda pissed and stopped really fighting back. After that we started talking, mainly about what I could do better.
In a little while, after him commenting that I needed a specific implant setup, etc., I responded with, "I don't want to be a fuckin' cookie."
Therein lies the whole problem of the game I think. In order to be even marginally good at combat, you have to specialize so much into combat and have the same damn setup as every other "uber" fighter out there, that it ends up taking a lot of the fun out of the game because you can't do anything else other than fight *with one specific kind of weapon*.
I'd really like there to be less specialization required to cap weapons so the game will be fun again. I'd love to be able to use an EPR without gimping myself by using Hightech Combat instead of putting all those points into Agility.
Not to mention the fact that unless you have a "rare" (*cough* not so rare) you almost always simply die. That's all there is to it.
--Stryfe
"I don't want to be a fuckin' cookie."
Shadow Dancer
20-09-03, 01:25
I agree.
I wouldn't want to be a piece of candy either.
I hate that their is basically 1-2 imp setups for apus, and HL is THE weapon. I wish there was much more variety in armor, weapons, imps, pathways, etc.....
:(
Specialisation sucks. Whoever decided to give Neocron more specialisation at around patch 160 (I think) should be shot. :p
Originally posted by Judge
Specialisation sucks. Whoever decided to give Neocron more specialisation at around patch 160 (I think) should be shot. :p
*Grabs a Silent Hunter...*
*Goes off to find Martin J S...*
[edit]
To stop any possibility of the moderators thinking that this is a spam post, I would like to make it clear that in posting that^ I was actually agreing with judges statement and also making a humerous little reaply to go with it. Damn I hate these new spam laws.
QuantumDelta
20-09-03, 01:38
Heh, unfortunatly, there is one, predominately superior implant setup for PEs.
Especially PE PEs.
At least, there is at the moment... give me a few weeks and a SA and I'll find you a better one, but primarily my long used and trusted exp bal + exp reflex 4 + sf + 2 free cpu slots = teh win.
With SA, I believe that there may be a few more open options, however for the longest time - I just assumed I didn't actually calculate, because the current setup is close to the perfect setup (admittedly it isn't 100% perfect but when I created it for myself I realised that it was the closest thing a PE would ever reach... SA may, or may not, open a few doors, it depends a lot I guess).
edit;
btw, tech combat doesn't nessicarily gimp you, you just need extreme weapon slottage...
Heavyporker
20-09-03, 01:40
Yeah, I'm not happy with the high over-speccing weaponskill caps needed.
And too many implants don't give a real shit to helping people.
PSI Controllers for one. NOW that's a gimper - what monk would use that? The hacking malus is just too damn bad for me... but...
as I said, if it gave vastly more PSI Use, then it'd be far more viable - lvl1 = +10, lvl2 = +25, lvl3 = +50 PSU. The hacking malus might stay the same or go up SLIGHTLY! SLIGHTLY I said!
There need to be research implants other than the rares and adv nerves spine (though that one's nice) - brain and eye implants for research.
I've got ideas for barter eyes, for hand bones (yes, psi glove would be lost, but I'm thinking of a good setup to balance that off.), for new heart implants, etc etc. I'm gonna put it all in a new idea nova sooner or later, so if you pissers want to see them, you better read it through. But I already put several implant ideas in the first two idea novas (points to sig below)
It definitely would be nice for each type of weapon to have something that made it unique and viable compared to other weapons.
Take laser weapons for example. Why does hardly anyone use a laser weapon? Because other weapons work better.
What if laser weapons never needed to reload? What if laser weapons fired a constant beam that racked up more damage the longer you had your aim locked on the target?
Would a Healing Light be more effective than a Ray of God? Maybe... it would depend who's using it. A person with inhuman aim would flock to this weapon... they could rack up a HUGE amount of damage with it -- the Healing Light becomes a viable weapon.
Right now, the game forces you to pick one of only a few viable weapons. A Liberator is better than a Wyatt Earp, it's just simply a fact. But if the Wyatt was given maybe... half the range and 4 times the damage, it could be seen as useful by those able to use a fighting style to tap into its power.
Even if a person carried a weapon for every situation, they still wont be overpowered. They are doing so at their risk (which could be as great as losing a weapon in an anarchy zone, to sacrificing valuable quickslots to hold more weapons and inventory space to hold ammo).
I feel this would make Neocron a much more diverse and enjoyable game... and its not a far-fetched concept, as some weapons already work in this way:
Do you fight the same way using a Liberator as a Blacksun? You shouldn't be...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
edit;
btw, tech combat doesn't nessicarily gimp you, you just need extreme weapon slottage... I was using a 5 slot EPR and I definately do *not* have poor aim. o_O Just ask the poor SOB's who are on the opposite team in TFC. :lol: :D :angel:
Also, that's another gripe. Plasma rifles have exceedingly low clip sizes for their power (or lack thereof). And why do they have so much friggin' recoil? o_O
--Stryfe
QuantumDelta
20-09-03, 02:01
Heh, Plasma Rifles, while one of my favourite weapons in the game, are far from what I would call a PvP weapon.
Pick yourself up a Reeza's gaze or DoY Raygun or RoG or TT Epic Rifle.
Unfortunatly, it seems rifle choices are almost as shallow as Pistol...heh
....ehh @ your edit...
like I said, plasma rifles aren't as good as they should be;
Ammo too heavy.
Clip too small.
Recoil too high.
Aiming too crap.
Damage too low.
btw @ Wyatt range reduction - Are you aware that weapon range has an absolutely monunmental effect on aiming?
Heavyporker
20-09-03, 02:04
zokk - I like those ideas -
Wyatt Earp definitely needs to be the smack-down close-in gun.
And laser weapons would rule, but... they WOULD need to use ammo, like flamers - you can hold it down and have the damage "stack" but then you'd have to reload, meaning it'd be fairer and more balanced... Aim's one thing, but free and endless stacking's another.
I was just tossing down ideas to try to convey my point, I know that reducing the Wyatt's range would make it (Edit: ) [a horrible melee weapon at best], and I know that laser weapons should require ammo (what I really meant was, it just removes ammo from your inventory without having to go through a cease fire and reload animation).
I wasn't giving ideas to fix the weapons as much as I was saying that something needs to be fixed :D
http://www.ihateaol.co.uk/misc/galleries/show.php/640x640//funnypics/cookie4.jpg
:lol:
anyway, Rares are a pain in the arse for PvP.
My monk setup is fairly rare, only hinch and i use it :D
I've seen/heard so strange PE setups in my time, imo the PE is the most uncookie-cuter class there is.
@mods the picture is NOT spam as it contains 3 words which are in the thread title, making it on topic :p plz dont remove it, its only a joke.
Originally posted by Omnituens
[Cookie Image]
:lol:
anyway, Rares are a pain in the arse for PvP.
My monk setup is fairly rare, only hinch and i use it :D
I've seen/heard so strange PE setups in my time, imo the PE is the most uncookie-cuter class there is.
@mods the picture is NOT spam as it contains 3 words which are in the thread title, making it on topic :p plz dont remove it, its only a joke. ROFL. :lol: That's a great one, Omni. Now come here so I can gimp-kick you. Hard. :p
As for PEs being the most uncookie-cutter class, that's the truth. But even being that, there are only 2 or 3 setups that are really good. Now what does that say about the other classes? o_O
About rares... IMO, something is too powerful when it's *required* to be even remotely effective. And that definately fits rare weapons at the moment.
@QD, that's nice and all, but I'm a workin' man and I don't have the time to hunt endlessly for parts, or the resources to buy them. That kinda puts the damper on stuff like that. I was also using a DOY Raygun against tim and it was doing less damage than my EPR. o_O I was kinda pissed at that one. Because I have pretty good aim, I could usually hit him quite a bit with the plasma which actually hurt him fairly badly, but then I'd have to reload. And then he'd either be gone healing (he has a great heal >_<) or I'd be laying on my back. Usually the latter. :(
--Stryfe
QuantumDelta
20-09-03, 06:16
Nice to know that about a rifle that is statistically ...roughly equal to blacksun (if the weapons are both capped....but doy ray comes at 120% ....blacksun comes at 86?)
Using that weapon is just like using a slower firing, more damaging version of the blacksun...heh.
The blacksun is simply too powerful for it's RoF. He was getting something like 133/min RoF on his BS (<- Hehe, that's funny :p) and I was doing 107/min I believe. That thing could take off like 70 HP a shot from me and I was only getting like 50-60 off with him as near as I could tell (with the DoY Raygun Rifle). The plasma rifle was taking between 80-100 off usually unless I had a particurally (how the hell do you spell that word?) bad burst, and then it was only taking about 40-60 off. Usually.
PvP damage is way too inconsistant/random for my tastes.
On the plus side, I'm usually able to take about 60 HP off a tank with the Raygun Rifle and the EPR, too. But then I usually get smacked down by the ubiquitous CS. :rolleyes: :p
--Stryfe
QuantumDelta
20-09-03, 06:51
Sounds like those good ol' resists need a tweakage or two
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Sounds like those good ol' resists need a tweakage or two Yep, but it's going to suck ass because due to what I have to do, I can't use my tech rifles any more, and I don't have a Pain Easer, so I can't do jack squat on this char right now. Well...I could be slightly annoying with a TGR, but that's about it.
And the STA hit when firing the higher level lowtech rifles is awful. And I don't like it one bit.
--Stryfe
QuantumDelta
20-09-03, 08:28
If you can't get rares LoM to Tech Pistols and use a 3 or 4 slot blacksun...
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
If you can't get rares LoM to Tech Pistols and use a 3 or 4 slot blacksun... *cough* Cookie *cough*
That's exactly what I'm trying to get away from. I don't want to be just like every other PE out there. I want the freedom to do what I choose and not get shot point blank in the back by specialization.
--Stryfe
the BS works different i think in that if u do hits on a "batch basis" (i.e. one hit... wait ... one hit) it does negligible dmg. however if u keep pumping it (i get 159 i think on mine) continuously, the dmg is MUCH higher than it should be (at least in my tests); such that if u land more hits in a short time u do overall more dmg... bs is screwed up...
but you stilll have a point; many class "uber" setups are all due to a same few templates... vet and qd's mystical PE setups that no one gets (tho i think i got it now :D), other people's uber monk/tank/spy setups, theres only 1-2 of each class... therefore theres really a very small number of paths to follow for pvp "greatness"
no cookie...
And the cookie cutter effect isn't even just because a few people find a good setup and everyone else flocks to it. The few effective setups are just so blatantly superior to the others that everyone just gets there on their own (not so sure about resists, but certainly weapons and implants). MC5 chips are about the only thing that might seperate them, and then only cos they're tedious to get ahold of.
EPR was a brilliant pvp weapon until people got resists sussed out (maybe 6-8 months ago I would be able to go up against rare users and win as often as I lost using that gun - would likely have been even more effective before specialisation). Maybe there's been other tweaks that affected it too, I dunno.
Stabber pulselaser is even more fun (my weapon of choice) - you get to watch little 6's and 7's float up from your opponents head. Admittably a lot of 6's and 7's if you have decent aim, but still.
Dribble Joy
20-09-03, 12:38
I'm not a cookie...... but then I'm a judge user and I suck in general.
I'd really like there to be less specialization required to cap weapons so the game will be fun again.
And hallelujah.
Been syaing this for a very very long time.
The inability to diversify is the biggest singel problem in this game.
Want to solve the APU/PPU issue now that they have done _so much_ work on this?
Would have been easy if the psi monk could have just done _both_ from the get go effectively and balanced accordingly. But nope, they made it idiot savant rules. So they wasted _a year_ balancing something that never needed to happen.
Want to solve the issues of trade skills being painfully hard to find? Want to be able to be more than a one trick pony?
_Tighten up the skill levels_ suchs that we should _never_ need a skill over 120 to be best at something (completely arbitrary number, but decidedly lower than the 180 in rifle I know some have).
But wait, why would we need implants and the like? Again, diversity. Means we can do more, in more ways.
What about outposts? I mean, why would we need them?
Well, we already have the access items now that make a big difference for gen rep control. Add to that, how about you want different outposts to _gasp_ guarantee slots on certain types of constructed items. Removes all the randomness from it and means we have a reason to have tradeskillers somewhere other than the Plaza.
Bottom line is that the above is just the barest possibility of how to change the mechanism in place. Until Neocron significantly changes the core mathematics of how skills work no one will ever be more than a one trick pony.
And that, is such a crying shame. :(
Drusus
Drusus
I've seen/heard so strange PE setups in my time, imo the PE is the most uncookie-cuter class there is.
All the best PEs are the same...
Welcome to being a PE.
Having had Juju, which is maxxed btw, on pluto for a long long time, i have tryed a lot of combinaisons over the times. The real clincher is that to be able to have really, REALLY good dex ( aka, to use the tl 105 weapons ) you have to totally gimp yourself.
I used to absolutly LOVE my redeemer. Then i realised how i would never really be a pro with it.
Right now, because i have abandoned using my supah judge pistol ( i got tired of poping 2 stars and not getting anything from any mobs anymore ) i'm mostly using retail guns that happen to have some mad slottage on them. personally, i have a weakness for my lovely 4 slot ryker. But then again, i don't PVP much anymore. So my imp setup gets me 13 dex and a massive boostage of other things like HPs ( gotta love the moveon )
You can pvp using retail guns. They just have to be very very special/legendary specimen of those things. A 4-5 slotted gun , coupled with some decent skills will always bring good results. Hell, i remember my infamous "smootie" which started the unholy fad of silenced gatlings on pluto ( that gun was a explosive, enlarged, lazdotted- silenced Tangent gatling rifle . Monks didn't like smootie at the time. but then, monks could be reasonably killed at that time too )
Gaah... i just rambled on like an old man here. Be what you wish to be. If you want to use a bad ass EPR and plasmify some, then start on those batches. Continue batching until you get a 4 slotter. Then mod it to your tastes ( and don't just put barrels. A good gun is a balanced thing overall with good aiming, RoF and damage ) . Then learn how to truly use it. And then prosper.
I posted a thread a number of months ago in the brainport, suggesting that they exchange the negative side effects of level 3 and level 1 imps. This would push the specialization aspect into the low levels and allow despecialization as a reward for high level play.
http://neocron2.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55603&highlight=despecialization
In my opinion, receiving a -3 instead of a -15 from a level 3 imp, or from an experimental, makes a lot of sense. In KK's current scheme, anyone that uses level 3 imps is forced to spend every single subskill point very wisely to offset the negatives.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Nice to know that about a rifle that is statistically ...roughly equal to blacksun (if the weapons are both capped....but doy ray comes at 120% ....blacksun comes at 86?)
Using that weapon is just like using a slower firing, more damaging version of the blacksun...heh. Another advantage the rifle variations of Rayguns have is that you get higher damage from a longer range (Due to how the distance based bonus/malus works), though I guess you could count that as more damaging.
yes, i have to agree with your, stryfe
this game has turned into the person who spends the most time working out a uber setup, and then now can beat them
that is why i laugh at all these people who think hey are the bes in the world at games just because they can beat everyone else with there far beter setup
im sure someone else has my rifle PE setup, but i dont know of anyone with it. it really comes down to CON if you wana be different
Sry to be O/T but, I read something from Dragon Empires I think some people might like:
"Dragon Empires has a unique magic system that gives the players a lot of choice in how they use their magic powers. As you learn spells in DE you attach the ones you want to use to magic items you carry (up to around five spells per item). Each item can change how the spell behaves and so no two magic users will ever have quite the same powers. For example, if you have a fireball you might attach it to a magic staff that gives the fireball greater range (but at the cost of more energy). At the same time you might take an area effect spell and attach it to a wand which reduces the range, damage and recast time. In this way you could have some good long-range firepower with a back-up spell you could switch to that you can chain-cast in an emergency. The flexibility of the system means players can create unique magic users with an individual style by combining different items with different spells."
Means every mage is going to be different, now that's awesome!
thats kool mankind but mages will prob find at combo that works the best and stick with it cause of no other good routes to take the spells.
Originally posted by Hayato
thats kool mankind but mages will prob find at combo that works the best and stick with it cause of no other good routes to take the spells.
Maybe...maybe not. Depends on if they don't make it so one single thing is the best. I hope not :o
PsycheBlade
04-10-03, 08:40
Drusus - brilliant ideas.
I'd have to agree on the obvious setups one has to have in order to pvp well is tiring and boring.
CS Tanks
Rifle Spies
Pistol and Rifle PE's (Lib, BS, PE)
Pure PPU
Pure APU (HL)
Those are basically all that you ever see.
I swear, the day I see a spy hop out of a glider, run with amazing speed, and then kill a equal other player with a BoH; a PE known to get plentiful slots and use a Wyatt effectively; or a Tank who has a reputation to use a Judgement Day Launcher and a combination of melee weapons; is when I'll say that KK no longer uses any cookie cutters.
Gawdamn... using a particular weapon because you LIKE it rather than because its needed! That sounds a helluva lot more fun than being constricted to a certain setup.
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