View Full Version : Liberator, Judge, or Both?
Heraclitus
16-09-03, 21:13
So I've made a pistol PE that I'm growing fond of. I'd like this guy to eventually reach stealth 2. I've done the math and I've found that it is possible (with fairly common imps) to use stealth 2 and still hold a Judge if I wanted to. This will still leave me plenty of points over the P-C req for Judge and allow me to cap runspeed. One thing is I've seen very few Judges out there and more Libbys than any other rare. The Libby damage SEEMS superior according to the charts but it's prc/frc which most people have heavy resists against. So which rare should I collect first? Which one is ultimately better PvP? I've noticed that the Blacksun has almost identical damage to the judge (and I'd be able to come closer to capping it) but it's all energy damage which is not good against monks and, well, most people (who usually boost energy damage becasue of monks). Then again I'd be able to mod it for Xray or fire or whatever. What does everyone think? How does the Libby hold up to the Judge? I'm going to have all those T-C points anyway, so shouldn't I just use the Judge?
Im much more fond of my judge, i only use the libby against monks nowadays... in otherwords i am constantly using my libby.
Heraclitus
16-09-03, 21:18
Do you consider the Judge superior to the libby against the non-monk classes?
ok, from your post it seems you want PvP, so:
lesson #1: meeting the requirements of a gun or being just a little over it will not make you effective. You should cap the stats of your weapon or be close to capping them, otherwise your pistols wont to maximal damage and their rate of fire will be really bad.
lesson #2: capping runspeed? I somehow have the feeling you think ATL70/AGL70 is capped runspeed. It is most definetly not that case, the real cap on runspeed is way higher.
lesson #3: Liberator is pierce damage and actually many character have a real problem resists pierce on a high level. While most have good or even outstanding force resists, pierce resists are usualy much lower. Actually the PE is the class for the best pierce resists.
When it comes to stealth II, the problem is for example that you need some T-C more then for your pistols only and that will reduce your runspeed and/or your P-C again as you need to spend points on T-C on the high level beyond 75.
My advice to you is blacksun and stealth 1.
Out of interest, has anyone tried the TL92 Pulselaser pistol in PvP? Is it any better or worse than the Blacksun or Libby?
Shock.
Heraclitus
16-09-03, 21:33
Under my config my P-C will be 127 when capped and after imps. If I can get my hands on an SF that'll be even greater. so that puts me 12 P-C points over Judge reqs. If I opt for Stealth I rather than Stealth II (I have to try things out before I make this decision) that'll be even higher. Yes I'm assuming agl 70/ath 70 is capped. Consider it capped for all I care. I've heard from every source that this is capped I'd need more solid information to believe anyone more than I do at the moment.
The only people with pierce resist problems are monks. I think it's already been covered that libby is better vs monks.
the pulselaser is crap, the blacksun is better than both a capped judge and a capped lib, the only thing that beats a blacksun is the RoLH, which isnt viable for a PE since a RoLH setup makes your defence suck.
Ok, thanks Rade. Will stay with my 4-slot Blacksun if I go PvP with my Pistol PE then. :)
Shock.
Originally posted by Rade
the pulselaser is crap, the blacksun is better than both a capped judge and a capped lib, the only thing that beats a blacksun is the RoLH, which isnt viable for a PE since a RoLH setup makes your defence suck.
Actually capped lib can be better if you have inhuman aim. I cant aim a lib AT ALL but I'm very good with blacksun... everyones like that.
Right now I'm stealth1, blacksun, lib.
Liberator has capped damage and 341% freq.
When I first see my target I unload with my liberator until they start to run around then pull out blacksun. Sometimes in a duel I'll drug into a judge. Neocron.ems.ru says it does same damage as blacksun.. (pvm) in pvp Judge does do quite a bit more (I tested with capped fire judge/blacksun...) Dont setup for non drug Judge though... it's not worth the extreme defense loss.
Dribble Joy
16-09-03, 21:56
Don't go for stealth 2, way to much gimpage reaching it's high tl req.
Judge is slight gimpage, compared to Libby/BS. Capping the dmg on it isn't a problem but having enough defence/agl is.
Getting a balance is hard, Judge is 9 tls higher than the libby so your imp setup can include a moveon with the Libby, (+18 HTL is yummy)
The only way Judge can be effective realistically is if you have an SA.
127 pc is nowhere near enough for any of these 3 guns, go for at least 175 after imps/buffs.
79 TC will put in range of the Judge with a pistol booster 1, gives you a little more points to put in agl, but makes you dependant on them.
Also get a distance 3 CPU +8 PC/TC, +10 WPL (?) is nice.
PP chip is also a good move.
Don't do what I do, and avoid the Judge.
Dribble Joy
16-09-03, 21:58
Originally posted by Drake6k
Dont setup for non drug Judge though... it's not worth the extreme defense loss.
Bingo
Redflash is +22 agl / +17 atl
Drug to use heat/haz1 and get the HTL bonus to counter Redflash's -10 HTL hit.
Also allows 2 of your head imps to be non dex givers.
lordofkhaoz
16-09-03, 22:48
the fact that a non rare gun (blacksun) does the same damage as a higher TL RARE gun is enough proof for me that things arent right with damage with pistols in this game...
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 00:59
Originally posted by lordofkhaoz
the fact that a non rare gun (blacksun) does the same damage as a higher TL RARE gun is enough proof for me that things arent right with damage with pistols in this game...
Yea, we know.
Liberator's aim is bugged, but does the most damage of any pistol, yet no one has the ability to get this damage out of the gun without making their strafing movements as predictable as your typical soap opera.
Judge is crap, generally not worth DEX 100, imo, never was.
BlackSun is just about the only weapon pistol users have which is not useless, unfortunatly, it's clipsize is slightly too big, and it's rof may need a SLIGHT reduction.
Tangent Epic Laser Pistol is pretty good if used well.
Ryker Napalm is not even as useful as Judge, however, it's a nice weapon to use as a tool to prove judge's ...crappiness :P
.....LOL uhm....yea....that's about it for guns that are even worth mentioning for PvP with Pistols.
Imo blacksun is perfect, the other guns need buffing. A good pistol user with a blacksun can stand up to a good tank with a heavy weapon or a good rifle user, its still not unbalanced, the blacksun user wont _always_ win. Also if you fight in OP-combat you will notice that you are alot less usefull than classes with better damage per second (which both rifles and cannons have). Its not like a spy or PE with blacksun automaticly beat everyone else.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Judge is crap, generally not worth DEX 100, imo, never was.
I should spank you for that ;) judge is still my all-time favourite, back in the day when eveyone used lib and blacksun was still a joke, judge was my weapon. Its nice to have something to call your own. I thought blacksun was gonna be my new callsign but it took only one or two weeks then everyone was using it. ah well. It was bound to happen I guess.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 01:20
Originally posted by Rade
Imo blacksun is perfect, the other guns need buffing. A good pistol user with a blacksun can stand up to a good tank with a heavy weapon or a good rifle user, its still not unbalanced, the blacksun user wont _always_ win. Also if you fight in OP-combat you will notice that you are alot less usefull than classes with better damage per second (which both rifles and cannons have). Its not like a spy or PE with blacksun automaticly beat everyone else.
I'm pretty sure that most people agree non-liberator/non-raypistols need a little bit of buffing, liberator requires addressing if it's aiming ever gets fixed (because fixed aiming on lib would mean it would be far over powered I can already see that).
BlackSun does not garauntee a straight victory, of course, my initial out cry at the weapon, was triggered because it was not under-powered like the other pistols AND I killed two tanks in a 2v1 (and had half health left), however, it was later revealed that these tanks..weren't that good :p
I should spank you for that ;) judge is still my all-time favourite, back in the day when eveyone used lib and blacksun was still a joke, judge was my weapon. Its nice to have something to call your own. I thought blacksun was gonna be my new callsign but it took only one or two weeks then everyone was using it. ah well. It was bound to happen I guess.
You have to remember, I would still be a Judge user if it weren't for the AGL Nerf/The fact that isn't not good........
Infact I had four or five Judges in my cabs until recently (one 3 slot judge disappeared, I'm assuming it was a database issue but my memory is pretty choppy anyway :P)
mmm.. my gogo is full off judges.. I can feel their eyes on me whenever I swap blacksuns. ....take mee..... take me back.... keeeeel..... keeeeel on commaaaaand.... Ah yeah anyway where was I. Yeah. Judges. Right. I love it. My old roomie would probably have some sort of seizure if he ever heard that sound again tho... "piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew, piew piew"
Andronicus
17-09-03, 01:35
I have always preffered the Judge over libby or blacksun. (except on monks i go with libby). With my setup i am doing more damage with the judge than the blacksun - (just tested this recently) - although this damage isn't much more considering the TL difference between the 2 (almost 20 points).
i use mainly libby just cuz i like the feel of an auto... =p forget judge it sux for all the trouble...
Thats funny, because I do the exact same damage with a judge at 178% as a blacksun at 178%. Of course a blacksun does less damage the further away you get so thats not always true, the test was done at very short range. Anyway, considering that the blacksun aiming is so much better than the judges aiming and its much lower reqs its no question of which one is the best choice atm, hope it changes.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 01:42
errrrr......
86 Tangent ‘Blacksun’ RP-97 DEX=86 P-C=108 T-C=77
Range 192
RoF185
Damage 2 x 111-252 enr
100 Judge DEX=100 P-C=115 T-C=83
Range 116
RoF 185
Damage 2 x 258 enr/frc
Soooooooooooooo not worth the extra gimpage, IMO.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 01:42
I don't see how the blacksun is overpowered. Easy aiming? Large clip? etc.... Sounds like perks all pistols should have.
Its not overpowered, its how all pistols should be, but its overpowered compared to the other pistols. Tweak the other pistol types to be equal to the raygun pistol line and eveything would be perfect.
{MD}GeistDamnit
17-09-03, 01:46
is it just me ? I can't find a pe setup that has tc and makes me happy :(
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 01:47
Originally posted by Rade
Its not overpowered, its how all pistols should be,
I just said that n00bler.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 01:47
Originally posted by {MD}GeistDamnit
is it just me ? I can't find a pe setup that has tc and makes me happy :(
Then you're looking in the wrong place.
Maybe I should open a "Skill setup designer shop" LOL seem to be doing that a lot these days -_-
Ive always had a T-C setup and it always made me happy *shrug* its harder for riflers than pistoleros but still.. I would never drop tech weapons, even if there were no stealth.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I just said that n00bler.
ONOZ!
edit: I just have to grab this quote by arc from another (closed) thread regarding his spamming: "Do you see me making retarded threads with no sense?" Well..........:rolleyes: We luv you anyway arc, dont worry:D
OK ok now I'm going to be a bitch here but I have to do this.
I WAS FIRST BLACKSUN WHORE!!!! Come on seriously lol give me credit damn it!!! I remember showing Trillian and Kramer in pepper park my shiny new blacksun and how uber it was. Show the love guys. Remember this sig?
http://www.rcmaxx.com/sig0.jpg
greendonkeyuk
17-09-03, 03:05
i still use the tangent epic pistol myself. havin said that my pe aint capped yet. (5 dex levels). it has some kick ass range (for a pistol) and nice accuracy, and because my aim sucks big time it counterbalances that and actually makes me more effective in pvp. which is a godsend in itself.
ive recently (today) started to use the blacksun too, still being a noob with pistols i still havent decided whether i will be a convert or not.
StoneRayne
17-09-03, 05:10
Blacksun=crap
Libby=crap
Judge=rocks
...from an APU's point of view.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 05:36
Typical Judge Users do about 20 damage to me by the time BlackSun has got them to about 1/2 hp.
Good Judge Users either get the Liberator, Ryker Napalm or Blacksun treatment, depending on who they are.
Nevr had a Judge user _Force_ me to use BS though.
QD, can u please let people do it themselves? Helping out lazy people doesnt acomplish anything... every victory they get will be hollow. I figued it out, you figured it out... let them doing it, ignore the whines.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 05:53
Since you dueled Rade yourself, you should know he isn't skill-less. ;)
As for the other peeps in the thread, all the information about the weapons excluding the burst bonus is here on http://neocron.ems.ru
don't you want competition worthy of your title - that actually makes you have to try to win? :p
StoneRayne
17-09-03, 06:07
Vet, then what's the point of these forums?
As for my choices, here's why:
-properly configured APUs can cap force/pierce resist, rendering the pierce on the Lib useless. Also, to get the most out of lib, you need to connect on several sequential bursts, which is basically impossible against a good APU because of their speed (dex has no other use other than agil)
-Judge does better damage than lib, doesn't rely on the burst bonus as much as the lib, and makes it hard to setup the resists against, without gimping yourself by either wearing PA, or using moveon/resistor.
-Blacksun doesn't get the burst bonus, doesn't do locational damage and doesn't let the PE survive long enough against the APU to kill him/her
At least, I've never lost against anyone using blacksun against me.
Against tanks, either one is good, although imo judge is still better.
Btw, in duels, always carry 2 guns, say an Xray judge and Fire Blacksun. If you want, you can even add another gun as well. Like an xray libby or something.
i use libby + explosive mod for ppu killing
and the judge for spy's/tanks/pe's.
despite what others say, you CAN cap the judge, just use an imp setup like this: special forces/distance weapon cpu3/exp balistic weaponchip 3/mindcontrol 3/exp reflexbooster 4 (or MC5-SA if you can afford it).
i can hear you thinking: "YOU NOOB IT ONLY GIVES +18 dex!" well, just be patient and wait for the pe pa :) or drug up...
if you spend all your points into p-c, some in t-c (just enough so you have 83 t-c INCLUDING the imps bonus) and like 25 agil then your RoF should be 180 already. (cap is 195 if i remember it correctly, if a ppu with lvl3 pistol combat boost buffs you then its fully capped)
-lex
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Since you dueled Rade yourself, you should know he isn't skill-less. ;)
As for the other peeps in the thread, all the information about the weapons excluding the burst bonus is here on http://neocron.ems.ru
don't you want competition worthy of your title - that actually makes you have to try to win? :p
:confused:
I made my setup alone, it hasnt changed much since april except for minor tweaks back and forth depending on which gun I use and what new implants have become available. The only thing I ever asked you.. and asked anyone frankly.. was if it was worth trying out the epic laser pistol.
**edit: I capped the judge without using drugs when I was using it. Wasnt using the distance weapon 3 if I remember correctly.
Originally posted by VetteroX
QD, can u please let people do it themselves? Helping out lazy people doesnt acomplish anything... every victory they get will be hollow. I figued it out, you figured it out... let them doing it, ignore the whines.
You are quite possibly the most selfish person I have ever met. PvP shouldn't be about secrets, fair enough the fact that you have spent a long time with your setup entitles you to at least some reward, but I don't see a problem with pointing other people at least in the right direction. I prefer an aggressive PE setup (I love the Judge btw, still haven't got round to making a good BS but Judge kicks ass) but whenever I've tried to figure out yours and QDs setup I have no idea where to start. I know you use things like drug to heat/haz, pp chip etc. but when it comes to the resist setup I really can't see what it is you guys do.
I'm lucky enough to at least be able to hold my own in a fight with the setup I have, but I feel sorry for people who could be really good in PvP but just can't get their heads round a good con setup. And it doesn't help when people like you scream holy hell when your secrets to being uber have even the remotest chance of being figured out.
Dribble Joy
17-09-03, 14:06
I often give people pointers on setups, never give them my full stats though, partly because they suck.
I don't have a moveon, so I only have 410 hp on my PE (damn Redflash)
Regulator pwned me (technically) last night in NF, he is like lvl 46 with a rapid fire smg, got me to below 200 hp 8| *cries
Originally posted by StoneRayne
-Judge does better damage than lib, doesn't rely on the burst bonus as much as the lib, and makes it hard to setup the resists against, without gimping yourself by either wearing PA, or using moveon/resistor.
-Blacksun doesn't get the burst bonus, doesn't do locational damage and doesn't let the PE survive long enough against the APU to kill him/her
Yeah, I have found that the judge will do a lot of location dmg, legs suffer if used well, Ie. not by me.
Someone go do me a favor and drug into a judge and compare to their blacksun. It does a lot more damage to players!!! Kramer was the one to show me... then I went and got mine... he's right. pvp and pvm damage are done totally different. 8|
I still like blacksun more for freq and aiming though...
I tested my judge and blacksun on other players, both with capped damage, did same damage at point blank. Did the player you tested it on have 0 force resist by any chance?
Originally posted by Rade
I tested my judge and blacksun on other players, both with capped damage, did same damage at point blank. Did the player you tested it on have 0 force resist by any chance?
You don't spend all your time 10cm away from your opponent though. During the parts of a fight when you are not touching one another, Judge does more damage.
Well, Im usually extremely close when I fight, my old style of playing from when pocketfreezers where around where I was more or less jumping on top of the opponent has set its mark. Anyway, its true that BS does slightly less damage if you move away a little but even at the longest distance Im usually using BS at its still not much of a reduction.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 18:01
Rade, the first and last line of my post was addressed to Vet.
The other lines was for people who aren't quite up to scratch with the PE.
It wasn't addressed at yourself. ;)
heh.. sorry to cause confusion.
I saw this post and thought "YAY! HERACLITUS IS COMING BACK!"
Arse o_O
Don't bump old threads.
N
I heard from an uber pistol pe that he used blacksun for pvp, except for monks I imagine though
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