View Full Version : sniper RoF needs upping
well been pissing about with a PE and a SPY and well i have gotten so pissed off with the snipers
on my PE i got a nice 5 slot commando 120% all stats :D and well its a PoS as i was shooting a tank, and his heal + deflector was keeping him alive i was doing 50 hits on him and by the time i re-loaded he had moved + healed so there was no way i was going to kill him with him running about with insane run speed -_- so it takes 30 seconds to find him move into range (cos of clipping issues) and shoot him.
same thing on my SH i got 3 slot 118% dmg 120% rest and well i was shooting a APU monk and it took 4 hits to kill him :-O how ever i had 3 hp left at the end of it o_O 3 as after the 2nd shot he saw me so i kept on shooting him thinking har har 1 more shot and ur dead and well i shot him and was dam lucky to be alive, as it took 4 :-O
meh any one got any ideas as i think all the snipers need a slight upage of there RoF not huge jsut slight say a +10 to it.
disscuse
What damage % and frequency/min did you had on your SH?
dmg was capped :D and i dunno about rof as i deleted the char in annoyance after that event :-O (was a capped spy)
Dribble Joy
16-09-03, 17:59
ONOZ TANK TOOK 4 SHOTS 2 DIE!!!! KOSNERFOMFGWTF NERF T3H TANK!!!onetwotesting!!1! O_o
4 shots? blimey I wouldn't complain.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
ONOZ TANK TOOK 4 SHOTS 2 DIE!!!! KOSNERFOMFGWTF NERF T3H TANK!!!onetwotesting!!1! O_o
4 shots? blimey I wouldn't complain.
not tank apu and when my fooking spy takes about 4 HL shots to die it is a fooking thing to complain about
BlackPrince
16-09-03, 18:07
Its not the amount of shots it takes to kill (are you capable of reading?), but as he said, the amount of Time it takes to kill him. Besides the short clipping plain, 'warping' effects, insane runspeeds, and the slow RoF on a SH or Commando, it makes sniping anything but a parashocked target (or a dumb target) very, very difficult.
Cliffraiser
16-09-03, 18:18
I agree the ROF of snipers need upage, my mains are all tanks and everytime i get sniped i pull out my epic laser and kill the snipers mostly and if i cant locate em i just run around abit till i find the sniper. Also a lot of shots dont actually hit the target as a sniper.
I dont mind the rate of fire, I would like the following 2 changes made to the sniper rifles though.
1) Show the REAL amount of bullets loaded. Why when you pull the trigger it uses 3 shots of ammo I'll never know...
2) Increse the clip capacity to 4 bullets per reload, from 3
Those 2 changes would make a huge difference :)
BlackPrince
16-09-03, 18:19
That epic Laser is a beast, especially since past a certain range you don't even see the beam.
QuantumDelta
16-09-03, 18:43
I agree with the upping of the SH RoF really, it's not high enough in a non-one hit kill world.
I agree aswell. The RoF is too low. And please get rid of the left-mouse-button-long-pressed-sniper-view, thats really annoying.
Xaru
Psyco Groupie
16-09-03, 19:05
dont use zoom apart form the first shot or something .. learn to aim .. use a diff weapon when they get close .. dont delete chars cos u cant use em .. lamezoid thread
no i deleted him due to that and due to the fact i couldn't be bothered to lom him to reseach from cst :o takes less time to actually lvl one up imo (and its more fun)
and if the RoF on a SH was say 200/min then i could understand, but to kill any thing with a sh takes over 2 mins (a standing still apu 50 seconds :o) to me thats jsut too long, when a apu can come along and kill me in under 10 seconds by jsut clicking
(monks the point and click adventure)
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 19:53
SH should be 60/min rof.
I think the rof is fine.
Sniper rifles are supposed to have small clips and low rof.
Imagine shooting a rifle at an elephant.
Now imagine shooting a rifle at a deer.
There's a reason why sniper rifles are meant to take out "soft" targets like monks or spies.
It's SHOULD to take a lot more than that to kill a tank, especially when the tank has cover and can heal himself (like you said).
If the rof is upped, the weapon would be too powerful, and everyone would be saying "nerf the sniper rifles".
I wasnt aware that it was possible to get 120% damage stat on any rifle/pistol/HC....is there more than one mod that gives dmg?
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 20:49
Originally posted by Cass
I think the rof is fine.
Sniper rifles are supposed to have small clips and low rof.
Imagine shooting a rifle at an elephant.
Now imagine shooting a rifle at a deer.
There's a reason why sniper rifles are meant to take out "soft" targets like monks or spies.
It's SHOULD to take a lot more than that to kill a tank, especially when the tank has cover and can heal himself (like you said).
If the rof is upped, the weapon would be too powerful, and everyone would be saying "nerf the sniper rifles".
Does SH do stack damage? I think it can get past the "one shot kill" rule if it does stack damage. :p
Originally posted by extract
I wasnt aware that it was possible to get 120% damage stat on any rifle/pistol/HC....is there more than one mod that gives dmg?
You mean on non rares?
You can use ultima mod. :p
BlackPrince
16-09-03, 21:01
Originally posted by Cass
I think the rof is fine.
Sniper rifles are supposed to have small clips and low rof.
Imagine shooting a rifle at an elephant.
Now imagine shooting a rifle at a deer.
There's a reason why sniper rifles are meant to take out "soft" targets like monks or spies.
It's SHOULD to take a lot more than that to kill a tank, especially when the tank has cover and can heal himself (like you said).
If the rof is upped, the weapon would be too powerful, and everyone would be saying "nerf the sniper rifles".
Give me one justifiable reason why an APU should be able to outsnipe a sniper and then I wont bitch about the RoF on the SH.
HL does more damage, has better refire, longer range, and doesn't require LoS. Tell me again why Spies are supposed to be the snipers?
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Does SH do stack damage? I think it can get past the "one shot kill" rule if it does stack damage. :p
You mean on non rares?
You can use ultima mod. :p
ummm yea I know about the ultima mod...but go check the stats...pistol/rifle/heavy ultimas only add to freq, hand, & range not damage....I mean the ONLY way would be if he used a laurent rifle mod which gives +18 and a rifle barrel which gives +16, the highest those things are built with is 87 stats "i beleive"
but an ultima alone will not give anything to damage
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 21:16
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Give me one justifiable reason why an APU should be able to outsnipe a sniper and then I wont bitch about the RoF on the SH.
HL does more damage, has better refire, longer range, and doesn't require LoS. Tell me again why Spies are supposed to be the snipers?
WE don't have longer range. But everything else is right. Either it should do more damage to make up for the rof or have a higher rof. I think KK's concern might be that it would to good in close combat? I don't know, I think that's their concern. :p
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Give me one justifiable reason why an APU should be able to outsnipe a sniper and then I wont bitch about the RoF on the SH.
HL does more damage, has better refire, longer range, and doesn't require LoS. Tell me again why Spies are supposed to be the snipers?
i bet their best argument will be that their spending millions of nc everyday on psi boosters :lol:
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Give me one justifiable reason why an APU should be able to outsnipe a sniper and then I wont bitch about the RoF on the SH.
HL does more damage, has better refire, longer range, and doesn't require LoS. Tell me again why Spies are supposed to be the snipers?
longer range um no it does not
SH 2000 m HL capped 268m
so how does it out range a HL
the clipping plain is anothet matter don't blame HL range vs SH range when it a game physics problem that limits the SH
Dribble Joy
16-09-03, 21:46
Bleh, sorry, it was late and shit, lack of tea kfudled my head.
4 shots about right to get rid of an APU, but yeah RoF needs increasing.
Originally posted by Ryuben
dmg was capped :D and i dunno about rof as i deleted the char in annoyance after that event :-O (was a capped spy)
erm i hate to be bitchy but its hard as hell to cap a sh, you need to really gimp your charecter to cap even damage let alone rate of fire, im not calling u a liar or anything its just rof was proberbly no where near cap, although that should be fixed when you can use lv 3 spy rifle power armour :D :D :D
Originally posted by Shakari
longer range um no it does not
SH 2000 m HL capped 268m
so how does it out range a HL
the clipping plain is anothet matter don't blame HL range vs SH range when it a game physics problem that limits the SH
-_- but that is the case so a hl does out snipe a hl doesnt it, plus HL is auto aim.....................
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 21:53
Originally posted by REMUS
-_- but that is the case so a hl does out snipe a hl doesnt it, plus HL is auto aim.....................
No it doesn't. :p
HL can't zoom, and I've been at distance where I could be hit but couldn't hit back. :p
Originally posted by Shakari
longer range um no it does not
SH 2000 m HL capped 268m
so how does it out range a HL
the clipping plain is anothet matter don't blame HL range vs SH range when it a game physics problem that limits the SH
The clipping plane is the limit. It is there, it wont get change anytime soon afaik so it is the limit. If the clipping range is lets say at 500m, then comparing weapon stats has no point at all.
Besides, the clipping range is only one problem. A second problems appears on many PCs (or with reduced settings) is the object fade (not the one in the game options, the one enforced by the engine) so you basically see some shapes of objects, but no more mobs or runners or sometimes only their frame if you know where they are.
Taking these both things into consideration, the range difference between HL and SH gets really small.
Some of the issues with SH vs HL I covered in Shadow's recent thread ... see this post :-
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=933289
The SH has numerous problems :-
RoF is way too low ... 24/min at absolute cap ... and we all know how gimped you'd have to be to achieve that - something like 205 RC.
It's 2km or whatever stated range is utterly pointless due to the 500m clipping plane.
Ridiculous scope/fire controls. It's the only weapon in the game where you can't just click to fire a second shot again - you have to mentally time 2.6 seconds, or it does the Spy equivalent of a Monk "fizzle". And the zoom control on the fire key too ? *boggles* The mind that came up with this freak show system and thought it would be useful is a truly scary one.
Only 3 shots per clip. When the absolute minimum is 4 shots for a kill this is incredibly annoying.
Heavy damage potential not utilised. Due to the damage dealt being in some manner proportional to the targets health you are effectively wasting the extra damage not calculated.
The max damage per hit seems to a little over 150.
150 on an unarmoured APU, 150 on a spy, 150 on an armoured tank, 150 on a PE. Damageboost doesn't matter a damn - most you will see is that slightly over 150 number.
Then there's also the blacked out reticle surround etc. It's annoying, but I guess I can sort of see the point to that one.
Anyway - fixes ... difficult.
The damage issue can't really be fixed without pretty much re-writing the entire PvP system ... so that's a no go.
Same with the range issue, except you have to rewrite the rest of the engine that you didn't already do for the dmg issue. Another no go.
Silly controls - easily fixable - it worked just fine before, so simply revert to the standard control set they had when rifle introduced.
Clip size - tough one. I strongly suspect that the 3 shot clip, and 4 shot minimum to kill was a deliberate policy, rather than a mistake. Without confimation, however, we won't know for sure.
Rate of Fire - easily fixable - however ... it would take some careful balancing - I would suggest 36/min as cap (using the same skill/benefit curve) - this should be more reasonable without making the SH overpowered in comparison to everything else.
Opinions ?
Unless KK does something about the clipping plane (IE make the sniper rifles scope do more then just magnify) spies will always be useless for sniping.
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 22:52
I thought the zoom bypassed the clipping plane problems?
Originally posted by Ryuben
sniper RoF needs upping
no it doesn't
Snipers are accurate and highly damaging and have immense range. yeah theyre slow to fire but so is the moonstriker you dont hear many tanks bitching about the aim do ya (well no THAT many lol)
If you take some dmg down then up the rof by + 1 a min i'd agree.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I thought the zoom bypassed the clipping plane problems? No. All it does is magnify the centre of your screen - you can still only see as far as you could when unzoomed - just bigger.
Originally posted by Oath
no it doesn't
Snipers are accurate and highly damaging and have immense range. yeah theyre slow to fire but so is the moonstriker you dont hear many tanks bitching about the aim do ya (well no THAT many lol)
If you take some dmg down then up the rof by + 1 a min i'd agree. Spot the person that didn't read the whole thread.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 00:52
Heh, oath.
QD Can heal all the damage from one SH shot in the time it takes for Stealth I or Stealth II to run out.
I know this because I chased Patri around TH for a half hour, he eventually genrepped out when he realised it was impossible...
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 01:03
Originally posted by kurai
No. All it does is magnify the centre of your screen - you can still only see as far as you could when unzoomed - just bigger.
wow that's lame.
How about giving sniper rifles the power to pierce buffs?
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 01:22
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
wow that's lame.
How about giving sniper rifles the power to pierce buffs? I don't see a problem with this.
The sniper rifle concept was really cool, but so far, the execution of that idea has sucked. The RoF on all sniper rifles, not just the SH, needs to be upped to around 40-50 a minute at cap.
The godamn hold-left-click-for-zoom shit has GOT to go. No point to it, plus it's annoying as hell.
The damage issue could be addressed relatively easily I think. I remember when they first put in the "no one shot kills" rule back in patch....160-something. People have been bitching about it ever since since most* burst weapons almost completely disregard that rule anyway.
*By most I mean all burst weapons except sniper rifles (which do infact use a burst fire mode if you look at the weapon details).
--Stryfe
Lucid Dream
17-09-03, 01:38
You would think KK could make it so the 'zoom' in effect would place a camera, that actually moves, perhaps variable zoom, sort of like a drone, so the camera actually moves forward, that way it would be able to get past the clipping plane problem.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 01:41
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I don't see a problem with this.
I'll make a thread about it.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
wow that's lame.
How about giving sniper rifles the power to pierce buffs? Hrmmm.
I had to think about that one.
My first reaction was "Yeah - great !", but it has some issues that were pretty swiftly apparent.
Assuming that you mean the sniper rifles disregard shelters then it would need some hefty code changes to make it work.
The whole pierce/ammo/ballistic/resist/armour/deflector system would need to be reworked.
You'd still get caught by the effect of the "cap on dmg per shot, relative to health" mechanics. Again - very hard to rework.
I think that the main real in-game effect one would see was that PPUs would be damageable at the same rate as everyone else. All the other issues would remain.
So - on balance - think I have to diagree with that one.
"Fixing" snipers by "breaking" PPUs isn't the right way to go, I feel :D
{MD}GeistDamnit
17-09-03, 01:43
Yeah up the RoF, up the damage and make it more shot's. And do something about that zoom :/
once they do that the gun will be fun :D
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 01:46
Originally posted by kurai
Hrmmm.
I had to think about that one.
My first reaction was "Yeah - great !", but it has some issues that were pretty swiftly apparent.
Assuming that you mean the sniper rifles disregard shelters then it would need some hefty code changes to make it work.
The whole pierce/ammo/ballistic/resist/armour/deflector system would need to be reworked.
Will you stop jesus. Are you some computer master programmer or something? Every suggestion someone makes you say it requires super duper graphical engine dev team sexual identity overhaul.
Originally posted by kurai
You'd still get caught by the effect of the "cap on dmg per shot, relative to health" mechanics. Again - very hard to rework.
Ahh but you'll be doing awesome damage to buffed targets. My tactic in op wars is too debuff apus then kill them asap. But you could just cripple their legs right through their buffs. You could be REALLY useful to op wars! Finally, a way for spies to be needed, other than hacking. :rolleyes:
Also, fire apocalypse can kill in 1-2 hits if the enemy has low enough fire resist. So how about making SH do some type of stacking damage to bypass the 1 shot kill rule?
Originally posted by kurai
I think that the main real in-game effect one would see was that PPUs would be damageable at the same rate as everyone else. All the other issues would remain.
Um, so? Look at the SH's rof, and then factor in the ppu moving fast like a madman in and out of people.
Originally posted by kurai
"Fixing" snipers by "breaking" PPUs isn't the right way to go, I feel :D
This is faaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaar from breaking ppus.
Their not the only ones with shields. ;)
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Will you stop jesus. Are you some computer master programmer or something? Every suggestion someone makes you say it requires super duper graphical engine dev team sexual identity overhaul.
lol Sorry :lol:
I am used to dealing with large and complex systems, that have many interacting effects. My first reaction to a suggested fix is usually to ask myself what other things it will break.
Occam's Razor is a good rule to apply - in this case it means applying the mimimum possible change to the system to achieve the desired effect.
It's usually better to adjust a big complex system with already established tools/properties, rather than invent big lumps of new stuff to tack on the end.
If a big system works for 99% of situations, then it doesn't make a lot of sense to entirely rebuild it for an issue that's a problem 1% of the time - especially when that 1% isn't an absolite showstopper of a problem and can be addressed by a fix within the existing framework.
I am just acutely aware of the code issues the KK dev team would have with implementing many of the communities suggestions. (especially since there's only 3 of them 8|)
There's also the fact that I can't seem to help myself from playing Devil's Advocate ;)
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Their not the only ones with shields. ;) Well - yes - but the sniper rifles overwhelm pretty much anything except a maxxed PPU Holy Deflector already.
No net benefit would be seen.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 02:17
It's ultra-simple to change SH To work.
You just make a new damage type which shelter/deflector isn't capable of absorbing, and give SH That.
Much the same as vehical weapons do no real Player Damage.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 02:37
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's ultra-simple to change SH To work.
You just make a new damage type which shelter/deflector isn't capable of absorbing, and give SH That.
Much the same as vehical weapons do no real Player Damage.
Bam, QD 1 Kurai 0
:p
I think having the SH and maybe KK drones too, do damage similar to the chaos cave minion's like Shadow suggested in another thread might be a decent approach.
BlackPrince
17-09-03, 03:10
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Bam, QD 1 Kurai 0
:p
You got a lot of balls for someone who's done nothing but show his own ignorance throughout this whole thread.
[ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 03:16
Originally posted by BlackPrince
You got a lot of balls for someone who's done nothing but show his own ignorance throughout this whole thread.
Hows bout a nice cup of "Shut the Fuck up"?
And this was productive because?
BlackPrince
17-09-03, 03:17
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
And this was productive because?
And yours was productive how?
He's done nothing but spam utter bullox through this entire thread insulting those who know more than he [ edited for violation of the forum rules - flaming ]
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 03:22
The difference is, mine wasn't flame.
As for Shadow.
I believe you'll find he has been a far more productive member of this community than...you probably ever will be?
...
Point is, in the end, he hammered home a post that made it possible to bring to light another suggestion to boosting the SH without nessicarily altering it's RoF.
However, I'm still in favour of it's RoF Increase.
BlackPrince
17-09-03, 03:27
Thanks QD for reminding why I didn't like you the last time I played Neo.
Bugger off, the 'idea' he brought to light, as you so quaintly put it, would require more time and resources than KK has to put into anything at this point in time. He, who is obviously not a sniper nor even a spy most likely, has done nothing but insult some of the best snipers and spies in the game. Sorry if I fail to see the productivity in that. His posts have been made out of obvious ignorance and that has detracted from this conversation, as has your inept attempt to defend him and insult me.
Upping the RoF would be the simplest and most effective buff to give all sniper rifles at this time. Perhaps later when KK has more time resources at their disposal they can implement something as dramatic as what he suggested, but for now that is merely a waste of time.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 03:37
My solution to his suggestion is simple to add, KK did it in about five minutes and one patch.
Regardless;
Arcadius has always been the type to not seek the simple solution - it's to find the best one...
He tries not to allow bias in his posts (check his recent "nerf teh apu" thread), no, he isn't experienced with DEX.
He's an APU Specialist, you expect him to be perfect?
I have spent time on several characters... PPU/Tank(MC/HC)/(RC/RCL) Spy/(RC/PC) PE.
I have a pretty well founded knowledge of the current weaponry and armor in neocron.
Though, even now, I am not anything worth "expert" in the field of PSI.
I am good with DEX Weapons, and proficient with heavy weapons.
If I have a PSI Question, I talk to him.
After all, specialists are supposed to be the best in their field.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Bam, QD 1 Kurai 0
:p lol
So rather than a simple change to one established parameter within the well understood mechanics of the weapon system, that makes several of the other issues go away, you'd prefer to invent a completely new type of damage out of nowhere that has absolutely no resist/defence framework behind it ... and that still suffers from the rest of the existing sniper problems ?
err ... O.K. :confused:
@BlackPrince: Chill, dude. Arc is at least trying to address the issue, and is in favour of balance.
There's little point flaming his suggestion and saying he's ignorant - just state, reasonably and calmly, *real* reasons why it might/might not be a good and/or workable idea.
We *need* his input ... it's not productive to just have opinion from snipers - we need to hear from the "targets" too, or this thread will just end up as us demanding KK make sniper rifles auto-targetting one shot killers, from infinite range, with no ammo requirement and no possible defence.
One side of an equation is worthless.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 06:02
It's what they did for vehical weapons.
Heh.
Snipers need zoom/aim fixed.
RoF is somewhat too low.
And/Or damage is too low.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 06:24
Originally posted by BlackPrince
And yours was productive how?
He's done nothing but spam utter bullox through this entire thread insulting those who know more than he and in general being a bloody peckerwood.
I haven't insulted ANYONE in this thread, and I haven't spammed, what on god's green earth are you takling about?
Originally posted by kurai
lol
So rather than a simple change to one established parameter within the well understood mechanics of the weapon system, that makes several of the other issues go away, you'd prefer to invent a completely new type of damage out of nowhere that has absolutely no resist/defence framework behind it ... and that still suffers from the rest of the existing sniper problems ?
I meant for piercing shields, that's what I meant and nothing else.
Originally posted by kurai
S
@BlackPrince: Chill, dude. Arc is at least trying to address the issue, and is in favour of balance.
There's little point flaming his suggestion and saying he's ignorant - just state, reasonably and calmly, *real* reasons why it might/might not be a good and/or workable idea.
We *need* his input ... it's not productive to just have opinion from snipers - we need to hear from the "targets" too, or this thread will just end up as us demanding KK make sniper rifles auto-targetting one shot killers, from infinite range, with no ammo requirement and no possible defence.
One side of an equation is worthless.
I'm in favor of snipers getting boosts, I totally agree with all your gripes, and I haven't flamed anyone, so I don't know what the flying fuck blackprince is talking about.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 06:41
Hense my defence.........
I've added this as a separate reply, because it's a point that deserves to stand alone.
Try to move away from the fixation on the damage from a single shot.
That's *already* outside the paramaters that the rest of the whole weapon-use framework was designed to cope with.
(Holy Lightning is another example)
The core problem is that, after all the usage factors are taken into account and all the client/server calculations are done, the sniper rifles don't deal enough target registered damage per averaged unit of time to fit their place in the weapon system.
Read that line again carefully.
"target registered damage" and "time" are the key parts.
Damage over time is a complex calculation, and can contain a myriad of factors.
You therefore have a large number of ways to change parts of the equation to give an increase in the final result.
The tricky part is doing it in such a way that it doesn't overpower the item, or other itemsthat share parts of the same system mechanics, in an unintended manner, and that doesn't require big chunks of the rest of the system to be changed to cope with it.
Accept that there some parts of the system that are massivley difficult, time consuming or impractical to change.
Most of the "target registered damage" parts fall into this area.
Now - work with what you have left.
The simplest, most elegant and most straightforward way to achieve the goal is to increase rate of fire.
(i.e. number of shots delivered per minute)
This effect can be achieved in a number of ways - either singly or in combination.
Increase the rifles base max shots per minute stat. (from 24 to , perhaps, 35 to 45 -ish)
Increase clip size (i.e. reduction of "dead" reload time)
Reduce clip usage rate to 1 or 2 bullets used per shot instead of 3 (again - reduction of "dead" reload time)
Reduce misfires (change to normal click and hold firing system)
Reduce time lost to control issues (The awful scope system)
Just seen Arc's reply ...
The piercing shields part really isn't the core problem.
As I stated earlier, the SH already overwhelms any but the strongest shield/resist/armour combos to deliver the maximum damage allowed by the system for a single shot.
Simply altering the damage type won't have any effect on this limit.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 07:05
Originally posted by kurai
Just seen Arc's reply ...
The piercing shields part really isn't the core problem.
As I stated earlier, the SH already overwhelms any but the strongest shield/resist/armour combos to deliver the maximum damage allowed by the system for a single shot.
Simply altering the damage type won't have any effect on this limit.
I'm aware of that, but that's not what i'm talking about. I was only responding to a very specific part of your post, which is that it will take a super duper uber reworking of the system, etc... to be able to penetrate shields.
THAT is what i'm talking about, whether or not shields will help is a different matter. I was just coming up with ways to help snipers. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I'm aware of that, but that's not what i'm talking about. I was only responding to a very specific part of your post, which is that it will take a super duper uber reworking of the system, etc... to be able to penetrate shields.
THAT is what i'm talking about, whether or not shields will help is a different matter. I was just coming up with ways to help snipers. :rolleyes: lol You and that bloody rollseyes.
OK then. For the sake of argument - I daresay pulling a new damage type out of the hat would be *a* method and, I agree, probably easier than having to recode the whole shield/resist part of the system.
Still not a 30 second job by any stretch of the imagination, but easier.
However ... what I'm puzzled by is why are we getting into arcane and abstruse methods to bypass shields, when they aren't really relevant to anything in particular ?
It might be a nice theoretical discussion to kick around and blue-sky with one day, but it isn't really germane to the issue at hand. ;)
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Heh, oath.
QD Can heal all the damage from one SH shot in the time it takes for Stealth I or Stealth II to run out.
I know this because I chased Patri around TH for a half hour, he eventually genrepped out when he realised it was impossible...
hehe kewl.........but.
I r a tank lol my heal is the suxx.
Joo are a PE and have *probably* masses of force resist, i dont lol i r hevay combator. and also i cant stealth.....(though someone said it WAS possible........dont see how though hehh)
Omg Nerf t3h P3's they are too ubar :lol: joking of course.
Oath.
i dont think sniper rifles should get extra rof
the assault rifles should perhaps get an extra shot in their burst perhaps though.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
No it doesn't. :p
HL can't zoom, and I've been at distance where I could be hit but couldn't hit back. :p
you have to wait for sh reticule to shrink hl does not require this -_- and its easy as hell to see people all te way up to the clipping range + zoom mode is fiddley :D
Changes that need to be made to sniper rifles:
ROF needs to be increased.
Damage should not be affected by the target's health.
Sort out the clipping plane (Ok that's a problem with the game, not the rifles)
Make the scopes zoom in properly, not just enlarge the view.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's ultra-simple to change SH To work.
You just make a new damage type which shelter/deflector isn't capable of absorbing, and give SH That.
Much the same as vehical weapons do no real Player Damage.
No way QD. We dont need a damage type nobody can resist. The whole thing about weapons is you have the choice to resist them on a higher or lower level - it is your choice. But a new damage you can't resist is really the last thing we need. The SH would have a special status in NC's weaponary and I guarantee, in the long run it would get nerfed to death for that new damage type and lack of resists against it.
As kurai wrote, the SH should get a boost using the existing system. "Never touch a running system" applies here pretty well ;-)
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 18:52
If the new damage type is totally unique to SH, it's fairly easy to control it's damage, and make it impossible to kill with in one hit.
However, wouldn't the sniper rifle best be suited for killing in a few hits anyway?
I guess I don't see why it's a problem, but, I don't use sniper rifles, on ANY Character anymore..
BlackPrince
17-09-03, 18:59
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
If the new damage type is totally unique to SH, it's fairly easy to control it's damage, and make it impossible to kill with in one hit.
However, wouldn't the sniper rifle best be suited for killing in a few hits anyway?
I guess I don't see why it's a problem, but, I don't use sniper rifles, on ANY Character anymore..
I still hold out through all the frustration. Once I get some financial things sorted and able to play some more hopefully KK will have fixed some of the issues, or at least let us know that they've noted the problems and are looking to fix them.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 19:06
Originally posted by kurai
However ... what I'm puzzled by is why are we getting into arcane and abstruse methods to bypass shields, when they aren't really relevant to anything in particular ?
It might be a nice theoretical discussion to kick around and blue-sky with one day, but it isn't really germane to the issue at hand. ;)
Kurai you're over analyzing ffs. IT was just a 1-2 line post issuing a SMALL suggestion to help out snipers, TO HELP OUT SNIPERS, you're making such a big deal about it just because it's not the suggestion you're looking for.
Christ, i already stopped posting about the shields but you jsut wanna keep hammering away how it's irrelevant, or you don't like it, or it doesn't help, etc...
Attacking the wrong person.
Originally posted by REMUS
you have to wait for sh reticule to shrink hl does not require this -_- and its easy as hell to see people all te way up to the clipping range + zoom mode is fiddley :D
SH outranges HL. Case closed. Yes SH has recticle, but that's irrelevant to the range. 264m is the max limit before you can't see someone, that's around 380 or so. So YES SH outranges HL. I admit Hl can be used to snipe, but please don't lie or make exaggerations.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Kurai you're over analyzing ffs. IT was just a 1-2 line post issuing a SMALL suggestion to help out snipers, TO HELP OUT SNIPERS, you're making such a big deal about it just because it's not the suggestion you're looking for.
Christ, i already stopped posting about the shields but you jsut wanna keep hammering away how it's irrelevant, or you don't like it, or it doesn't help, etc...
Attacking the wrong person.
Fuxxake.
Your turn to chill now, dude.
I thought the idea was bad - I said why - you didn't seem to get it - I clarified - now you are interpreting it as some kind of attack on your precious bloody ego.
Please don't derail this by turning it onto another damn "Arc is a poor martyr" threead, because your well meaning support for one particular idea isn't instantly met by adulation from the masses.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 20:12
Originally posted by kurai
Fuxxake.
Your turn to chill now, dude.
I thought the idea was bad - I said why - you didn't seem to get it - I clarified - now you are interpreting it as some kind of attack on your precious bloody ego.
wtf are you talking about? I don't care if you don't like my idea. You don't like it, you said it, fine. The only reason I posted again was because QD showed that it wouldn't be a big change in the system. And wtf you mean i didnt' get it? I DID get it genius. The only thing we disagreed upon was whether or not it would help snipers, no big deal. You think my ego is hurt? yea ook, now yuo're just grasping at straws because you don't know what to say. If you think i'm interpreting it as an attack on my ego, THEN LEARN TO READ! I was just stating that it was a possible side suggestion other than increasing rof(incase KK doesn't want to do that), and you're like "but wtf dude it's not relevant, but wtf dude it's not relevant, but wtf dude" shut up already. jesus. Why are you so hung up on one post? We already disagreed, and for some reason you gotta keep responding, wtf?
Originally posted by kurai
Please don't derail this by turning it onto another damn "Arc is a poor martyr" threead, because your well meaning support for one particular idea isn't instantly met by adulation from the masses.
What a load of garbage. :rolleyes:
Like i said I don't care if you don't like it, but for some reason you were stuck on saying how that's not what the issue is about or it's not relevant, etc... ffs I already got the point, it was just a SIDE SUGGESTION FFS!
And the funny thing is you're talking about the 'issues' of a sniper, meaning clipping plane blah blah, but then this thread is only about the RoF. So basically we're both just adding "non relevant" suggestions(using your logic). Dude you don't like the idea, fine whatever, you said that. But why are you hung up on it?
This wasn't soem stupid "poor me" plea, read K THX.:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
*sigh*
I'm leaving this thread alone for a while - you just can't be reasoned with when your in this sort of mood.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 20:15
Originally posted by kurai
*sigh*
I'm leaving this thread alone for a while - you just can't be reasoned with when your in this sort of mood.
Nice escape. Go ahead and leave.
VVerevvolf
17-09-03, 20:54
Originally posted by Lethys
Damage should not be affected by the target's health.
THIS is the most important change, after that change a sniper rifle could finally get usefull.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 20:57
What was the exact reason for KK implementing that? They said it was to prevent 1 shot kills right?
But isn't that for like high level people attacking lower level people? I mean if someone needs that particular rule to live, then chances are the other player will be able to kill them anyways.
I think it was originally implemented to stop the instant ganking of noobs in the sewers by a single direct hit from a Doom Beamer/Malediction/Moonstriker/etc. and also to give people a more "fair" shot at PvP.
I think it sucks because you usually have to gimp yourself to varrying degrees to do good damage with the single shot weapons, and then...you end up not doing said damage with those weapons because of this stupid 'rule'.
--Stryfe
Silly sniper dont need help......silly sniper hurt oath......oath no find silly sniper...........silly sniper KOs.........if i find out who it was lol 8| o_O
really.........silent hunter is ubar.........you wont get a rof upgrade without losing something else (like dmg). the ROF is slow cause its bolt action.......though you could reload faster, give it a magazine and make it semi auto rather than single shot ala PSG-1. but.....that would mean losing damage. so pick one dood's
OK - some empirical numbers.
I've used some of Lupus' calculation formulas as they take into account multiple factors and give you a result that can be accurately compared between weapon styles/types.
To get the factored theoretical maximum damage per unit time the calc goes as follows ...
Damage per clip = (Damage per shot x shots per clip)
Clipe per minute = 60 / ( ( (60 / shots per minute) x shots per clip) + reload time)
Potential delivered damage per min = damage per clip x clips per minute
So ... we end up with :-
Silent Hunter (TL-111) : 1592 dmg per shot : 24 shots min : 3 shots per clip
Result : 28,656 dmg/min
Now - lets compare that to some other example weapons :-
Pain Easer (TL-93): 240 dmg per shot : 170 shots min : 30 shots per clip
Result : 33,120 dmg/min
Healing Light (TL-110): 196 dmg per shot : 170 shots min : 36 shots per clip
Result : 38,487 dmg/min
First Love (TL-114): 306 dmg per shot : 227 shots min : 16 shots per clip
Result : 44,064 dmg/min
So we can already see that the Silent Hunter is under the dmg/Tech level curve.
Additionally, with the limit on registered damage per shot taken into account, we are actually throwing away a proportion of that potential damage delivered.
i.e. Assuming a runner target with no armour/resist/deflector - damage taken will be (stated dmg per shot / 3)
For SH this = 531. The engine will only allow something like 185 per hit ... *maximum* .
Therefore we are losing 65% of the potential damage already.
This puts the *actual* max damage from SH (compared to *theoretical* max damage) at 10,030. 8|
Let's put this in perspective using the (runner "natural" armour = dmg/3 calc)
The max stated dmg per shot is 1592. Max engine calculated dmg per shot is (185*3) = 555
You could therefore drop the SH rated damage by *two thirds* and still get exactly the same registered damage on an unarmoured maxxed health target.
Now - there are some mitigating factors ... with armour/resists/deflector a percentage of the theoretical damage is removed with each defence type. The SH's high damage per shot rating means that the "allowed registered damage per shot" cap of 185 is passed at around combined armour rating of 100
(i.e. 100 armour, or 101 resist, or combination of both)
In other words .., with about 100 totalled defence rating you defend against 89% of the shot's damage - at this point the delivered damage is less than the engines allowed cap.
With Deflector this factor is increased even more.
So ... now we try to come up with a way to redress the SH's poor real world damage per min value ...
As we have 66% headroom to play with on the "thrown away" damage part of the calculation, we can decrease the damage per shot value as the trade off for increasing rate of fire somewhat.
Even if we ignore the SH's low theoretical max damage per min ( actual is 28,656, expected for that Tech Level is 39,000 or thereabouts) we can still adjust the rate of fire side of the equation versus damage per shot to give a more useful result.
Working backwards this could give us values of something like 1200 dmg per shot and 36 shots per minute rate of fire for exactly the same real world dmg/min result.
It has the additional benefit of also complying with the engine's checks and balances system. No need to rework the "allowed max dmg per hit" system, no need to rework armour, or resists, or shields, no need to create a new damage type, no need to rework clipping issues etc. It doesn't suddenly overpower the SH against any given level or class of runner - it just pushes the crossover point lower so it gives a fairer result for it's tech level and skill investment.
So ... a summary for those that like to skip all the long complicated bits, and just see the resulting suggestion :D
Suggestion:
Increase Rate of Fire from 24 to 36 shot/min
Decrease Dmg per shot from 1592 to 1200
Richard Slade
18-09-03, 10:19
Umm but according to your calculations, since the 65% are thrown away, decreasing dmg wouldn't make a difference since engine won't calculate anyways, right?
So therefor you could do it very simple:
Raygun style.
One shot does three/four rounds of dmg.
That would make a 4x185 instead in one shot
About 740 dmg instead.
But then again KK has always said there's no "one-shot-one-kill" PvP in NC so therefor:
Up to 36
down to 1200
and make it 4x
Originally posted by Richard Slade
Umm but according to your calculations, since the 65% are thrown away, decreasing dmg wouldn't make a difference since engine won't calculate anyways, right?
So therefor you could do it very simple:
Raygun style.
One shot does three/four rounds of dmg.
That would make a 4x185 instead in one shot
About 740 dmg instead.
But then again KK has always said there's no "one-shot-one-kill" PvP in NC so therefor:
Up to 36
down to 1200
and make it 4x Erm ... I *think* I get what you are saying ...
It looks good, but I can't get over a nagging gut instinct that I'm missing a potential drawback - lemme go crunch some numbers, see if I can pin it down (if, indeed, it's real) :D
Edit: Ah, OK - I think I see it now.
If we are getting around the 65% loss scenario already, then there's no need to increase the *actual* rate of fire, as we aren't compensating for anything any more.
What we are effectively doing is changing the RoF from 1592x24 to 398x96 (or from 1200x36 to 300x144 if we use the changed stats).
Since we are now not hitting the 185 limit in an individual damage calc round either would be equally valid, so on the "only change minimum necessary" principle I guess we could leave the "stat" rate of fire the same.
I have a suspicion that this "4 calcs per shot" equation was what was originally intended when the sniper rifle ammo had a Damage Over Time component, like poison or fire stacks, so it would be a better solution overall.
Two thumbs up ;)
Something that might help you crunching the numbers: the maximum damage a SH can make with one isnt around 185 but at least 260 (that was always the damage value that came up for SH while doing some resists tests few weeks ago). This value isnt btw for a "nacked" char, it is for a light armored char with 350 health.
185 would be a damage made to someone with around 90 in resists, 81-83 for someone with entirely capped resists.
Originally posted by Lucjan
Something that might help you crunching the numbers: the maximum damage a SH can make with one isnt around 185 but at least 260 (that was always the damage value that came up for SH while doing some resists tests few weeks ago). This value isnt btw for a "nacked" char, it is for a light armored char with 350 health.
185 would be a damage made to someone with around 90 in resists, 81-83 for someone with entirely capped resists. That makes sense.
Looking back, my "65%" lost scenario was calculated using component steps that were all theoretical absolutes, except the 185, which was from subjective experience shooting people at actual battles.
Using a value of 260 cuts this "lost" number down a fair bit - from 65% to 48%, giving the SH a real dmg/min value of 14,900.
Still very low, but not quite as bad as the 10,030 that made me go *eek* :D
On the other hand, Richard's idea removes the need for working round the cap at all, so I think his is the better solution now. ;)
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