View Full Version : I think apus are overpowered
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 07:13
:(
After doin some PKin and killin recently, i've come to the conclusion apus might be overpowered. And i'm not talking about damage output. I think one, both, or all 3 of the options below should happen to balance them.
1.Their range needs to be reduced. 264m on such a powerful weapon as HL is a bit too much. Also it's a bit unfair to the silent hunter. I remmeber one spy telling me he did 140 to a tank once with silent hunter. I can do that with HL. O_o Not to mention when a spy is sniping me(and there are no mountains around) due to fog and clipping plane, he's usually close by. So I run up a bit and kill him in 2-3 hits. So until something is done about the fog/clipping plane issue for spies, i don't think it's fair for APUs to get so much range.
2.Locational damage needs to be removed, or make everyshot a "head"shot. When you combine legs hits with high damage, fast speed, and loooooooong range, well..........It's almost a guaranteed victory. No fight in PvP should be a guaranteed victory IMO.
3.They need to make all apu spells projectile attacks so that they require LOS.
Some thoughts. I think KK didn't implement the PPU OR APU correctly. I won't get into the PPU issue, but KK said they never wanted apus to be good solo in PvP. Their really off the mark. Apus can be awesome solo in PvP. The reason I never said something about apus being good solo is because I believe it would be extremely difficult to make the apu class a pure support class(like ppu) without making him crap.
Let me explain. The ppu is pure defense/healer/etc.... The PPU simply needs A damage dealing class. The PPU can team up with and be effective with any other NON ppu class. Since their are a bajillion players of any other class, this isn't a problem. But if the apu was made weak enough to the point where he's pure support(sort of like the way he was in the very beginning), then he's dependant on the PPU only. Meaning they would become dependant on a SUB-class(ppu) of a class(monk), making them extremely limited. Thank god it's not that way right now, but if it ever did become that way I would cry lol.
Anyways just wanted to rant a bit. :p
Your thoughts? :angel:
Psycho_Soldier
15-09-03, 07:15
So you finally admit it eh? :D
I like them all. :D
Please dont make me pick... :(
I agree with you completely on everything exept the los thing. I dont think all modules should be like that. Maybe just less aoe or more diff when its closer to u then farther from u dmg wise.
QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 07:19
I don't think LOS is a problem.
I do agree on Locational and range though.
I also think that current parashock range should be reduced somewhat (Meaning, specifically, Parashock Beam and the other Parashocks below Holy Para) if it's not going to be removed, it needs to cost more, or it needs to have a much lower RoF.
KK Said a lot of things about how they want to balance things...
Point and case, I think some people changed their oppinions.
I'm still one to say, that the only class that shouldn't be able to kill 1on1, is a PPU.
All damage should be removed from PPUs, and some kind of bar should be put on melee/hc/rc/pc weaponry once you get past holy deflector buffs.
my capped apu on test server can hit things at distances i cant
even see...
so range is definately an issue
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 07:33
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
So you finally admit it eh? :D
I like them all. :D
Please dont make me pick... :(
What do you mean finally? lol
I admitted it a while ago, but people always say their overpowered because of damage, and I disagree.
Besides, that's like saying spies have too much int. :confused:
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
All damage should be removed from PPUs, and some kind of bar should be put on melee/hc/rc/pc weaponry once you get past holy deflector buffs.
huh? What do you mean?
a while ago, i wouldnt have agreed, but now i do. I had a bunch of fights with apus, and examined them closely. with DS, psi core, and powercloask, they can get insane damge on HL. the range is insane too. They can also runcast spells if they get good enough. not run, spot for a split second, and cast, but actually runcast.... with a spell that does way more then CS and has no aiming recticle, thats too much. range is insane too... NEVER run from an apu, you will die. Take your chances and try to kill him... but never run.
Apu defence isnt bad either... pis armor is best in game... no argument. with the right imps, an apu can have pretty far over 100 in each resit and plenty of health... and very high speed. Maybe your healing after the fight is sow, but they can still take decent punishment. IF BUILD RIGHT. NEWBIES, NOTE THIS, IF BUILT RIGHT. Just because YOU dont know how, doesnt mean cant god damnit!
they need a small nerf somewhere, not a nuke, but a small nerf.
Yeah APUs are really overpowered when they are teamed with PPUs. With over 80 resist-fire and inq 4 armor on, a particular capped APU with Psi Combat 3 still takes me down with his Fire Apocalypse in 3 shots. In my opinion thats f*cked up. Damage boosted? I don't stand a chance to live through one, and I'm capped tank.
Psycho_Soldier
15-09-03, 07:37
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
huh? What do you mean?
Correct me if I am wrong QD. I think he means that PPUs should have zero spells that does damage and there should be a low damage cap for PPUs only when it comes to other non-psi weapons once you get past holy deflector buffs. .
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 07:39
Originally posted by VetteroX
a while ago, i wouldnt have agreed, but now i do. I had a bunch of fights with apus, and examined them closely. with DS, psi core, and powercloask, they can get insane damge on HL. the range is insane too. They can also runcast spells if they get good enough. not run, spot for a split second, and cast, but actually runcast.... with a spell that does way more then CS and has no aiming recticle, thats too much. range is insane too... NEVER run from an apu, you will die. Take your chances and try to kill him... but never run.
hehe they should be able to run/cast spells. Any "combat" class needs to be able to move while shooting.
And you're right, never run from an apu. It's like running from a drone. :p
Originally posted by VetteroX
Apu defence isnt bad either... pis armor is best in game... no argument. with the right imps, an apu can have pretty far over 100 in each resit and plenty of health... and very high speed.
the right imps? O_o
I hope you dont' mean brain imps, if we want to have a "half" decent mana pool, and keep our insane damage we can't afford to use non psi imps, at all.
The most health i can get is 312 or something, i can't afford to use moveon. And that health gets turned to 292 because of pa. And pa takes away force resist. So...;)
Explosive lib=NERF
j/k :p
Originally posted by VetteroX
IF BUILD RIGHT. NEWBIES, NOTE THIS, IF BUILT RIGHT. Just because YOU dont know how, doesnt mean cant god damnit!
lmao, I think you're traumatized with people asking about your setup.
You can also see it in the communty, like saturn, SOOO many people making apus... the sheep always go down the easiest path. You can see it on saturn, all the damn apus, i kill so many everyday, then always get chased off by apu/ppu combo. You can see it on trade channels
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
is all the hell you see now.
the tank class is dying :(
i dont play on pluto because my tank is boring yet i dont wanna
delete him :|
Originally posted by FBI
the tank class is dying :(
i dont play on pluto because my tank is boring yet i dont wanna
delete him :|
Yeah I might delete my tank, seeing how great the PE is in battle...
juvestar15
15-09-03, 07:58
If you take one of the best players from each class you will always need to nerf that class.
I think APUs should be nerfed when you are signifcantly better at playing one than a PE or tank. I know i am more useful when i log my APU for OPs battles.
I don't actually think APUs are the problem. Nerf the PPU. They have totally ruined PvP. I won't get into that in this thread. :D
OMG shadow, not the ppu's again...
err wait... *cleans contact lenses*
Ok, not the ppu's again Shadow.
*takes beating* *flushes alcohol*
What? Apu's? Onoz, Shadow is teh broken :(
;) :D
EDIT: Btw Shadow, I don't understand the text under your forum nick. What does it mean? ;)
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 08:07
Originally posted by phunqe
EDIT: Btw Shadow, I don't understand the text under your forum nick. What does it mean? ;)
It means I have the dog tag of every good ppu on pluto except skuld. ;)
Err and gravity. :p
Getting stuck in your stun haxx0r UG Friday at tyron doesn't really count Shadow :p
Ha now I remember, you sexx0red mine off? ;)
:D
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 08:39
Originally posted by phunqe
Getting stuck in your stun haxx0r UG Friday at tyron doesn't really count Shadow :p
lolorz, no one told you to come down. :p
well i hate to admit it but i guess it is "sorta" true that apus are overpowerd... :D
LOS and dmg isnt the problem; its the range as mentioned... when u can "snipe" with a HL... well... hehehe
thats y i dont play my monk anymore except in massive butt-kicking needed situations... else i'm always on me PE :D
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 09:20
Originally posted by mdares
LOS and dmg isnt the problem; its the range as mentioned... when u can "snipe" with a HL... well... hehehe
You're right.
But on the flipside their are other problems. Our lack of healing. Gentanks can cast deflector, heal, heal sanctum, and hc 1. wtf O_o But we can't?
Then there's our int gain problem, etc....
MjukisDjur
15-09-03, 09:20
[be nice]
hey Shadow Dancer:
Diate breathed deeply, blood still moistening the air. He had fought well, he had fought damned well. The bodies of over fifty thugs lay in ragged heaps around him, the river of their lives mixing together into one great pool of carnage. He had sworn that there were less before but it no longer mattered, they were dead and he was alive. An immense wave of pride and pleasure washed over him and he kicked, triumphantly, at the nearest body, rolling it over to look into the near-dead mans face. He was not prepared for what met him.
Diate looked up at his slayer and was stunned to find himself looking back, a smug smile on his own face. The confusing paradox of seeing from the eyes of the slayer and the slain was too much for the young man's mind which currently broke down under the strain releasing wild torrents of pent up anger, pain and sadness. The raw emotion tore through the piles of Diate's corpses, now a thousand tall, melting them all into one big pool of essence. The living Diate fell to his knees in the goo and watched helplessly as it all molded together into a new body, a new Diate.
The essence-being strode over to the near-living one and shook it's head pitifully.
"And so Diate, now I have killed a man. A man who looked like me..."
MjukisDjur
15-09-03, 09:32
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
[be nice]
Sorry but I get so damn anyoed with people still complaining about monks after all the nerfs. Nerf spies damage / pe speed and tank resists instead. Then we can talk about monks again
Psycho_Soldier
15-09-03, 09:34
Originally posted by MjukisDjur
Sorry but I get so damn anyoed with people still complaining about monks after all the nerfs. Nerf spies damage / pe speed and tank resists instead. Then we can talk about monks again
I think you get PE's and Tanks mixed up. ;)
Although niether need to be nerfed.
Spies damage? LOL, if anything it needs to be boosted.
I consider your post a joke.
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 09:37
Mkus i'm a monk. Btw i change my mind about locational damage, I think apus should still be able to do that. I forget how easily it is for simple to cripple the apu just like he can do it.
But I still think range is a serious issue, and impinges on the spies sniper role in some ways.
And uhhhh D3ik, i have no idea what you're takling about. :P
MjukisDjur
15-09-03, 09:41
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
I think you get PE's and Tanks mixed up. ;)
Although niether need to be nerfed.
Spies damage? LOL, if anything it needs to be boosted.
I consider your post a joke.
You got it completely right. IMOP no one needs nerfing atm. For the moment everything is perfect (well, we shouldn't bring up op war with 2+ ppus on one of the batteling side :))
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
And uhhhh D3ik, i have no idea what you're takling about. :P
And uhhhh Shadow Dancer, that's the origin of the answer to the question in your sig. Amazingly enough not everything originates in a movie :eek:
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 09:58
nvm i'm changing the quote. People have been pming me with all sorts of movies, man that line musta been famous. :confused:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
3.They need to make all apu spells projectile attacks so that they require LOS.
Theres your naswer... no more shooting people as they run behind cover or anything because of the 'lag' between you clicking us etc..
Psycho_Soldier
15-09-03, 10:05
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
nvm i'm changing the quote. People have been pming me with all sorts of movies, man that line musta been famous. :confused:
You must have some good cookies too... GIVE ME SOME!1
Also, making all APU weapons require LoS might actually do wonders with balancing. I won't know for sure until I see it in action.
ericdraven
15-09-03, 11:54
You see a range of 264 m as a problem and consider it as "sniping"? Compared to the 3000 m range of a Silent Hunter?
I would say the problem is - because of the fog - that you can't see more than 500m (?). If you could see across the whole zone then snipers would have a REAL value. :)
Richard Slade
15-09-03, 11:57
BAH! I just say drones.
Plc-1000 range: 2.8million meters, THAT is something you never have use for...
ericdraven
15-09-03, 11:58
Originally posted by Richard Slade
BAH! I just say drones.
Plc-1000 range: 2.8million meters, THAT is something you never have use for...
True. Would be cool if you could zone with drones and fly thru the whole wastes. :)
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 11:59
Originally posted by ericdraven
If you could see across the whole zone then snipers would have a REAL value. :)
Yea that would be awesome.
ericdraven
15-09-03, 12:02
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Yea that would be awesome.
Indeed. I just capped my rifle spy yesterday and i have to say it's big fun playing him. But - if there would be no fog it would be even more fun.. :p
But ok, that's offtopic.
Btw - Arc - do you ever sleep? :p
Richard Slade
15-09-03, 12:02
Actually yes. Would keep some certain meatsacks alive for a little longer, and you would get use for scout drones for once.
(OP fight? BAH! We KNOW where they're waiting! ;) )
Original monk
15-09-03, 12:42
hehe now its the turn of the APU to get dissed at and nerfed :P about them sniping: yeah last night i was snipin with my silent hunter, my amazement was big when i yust got sniped back to dead with a HolyLightning :P so yeah them monks yust snipe ya back LOL, then whats the use of that scope on my gun ? they dont need a scope it seems :P
Power, yeah they produce immense power at short time, but there a bit weak (resistlike) themselve so thats ok.
I tought the tanks where the strongest chars in the game (they used to) now a tank is shit, UP them tanks, heck, boost every class except a apu and give the PPU some particular contra APU spells. (still thinkin about how they would work, catharsis is coowl allready but i would like to see something that ya can use to anoy apu's, like a spell that does -40 apu to the person casted on or so :P, i know ya can cast a rifle 3 so he cant get psicombatboost but still ...)
well yust up all classes (except apu monks) and give tanks new pvp weapons and them apu's will chill down :P
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
3.They need to make all apu spells projectile attacks so that they require LOS.
That would be a good start to see on the test server if it would make APUs more balanced. But then again, what are the chances we will get there this year? I somehow can't get rid of the feeling KK doesnt care too much about balancing, that thing that is so fundamental in a highly PvP oriented game.
People are posting it on the forums over and over. APU have too huge range on their spells, spy could need easier access to Inq-1 and Dur-1 armors, Holy Paralysis needs to be nerfed, PPUs influence PvP too much...but KK isnt doing not a single step into getting into it.
I mean come on, PvP is pretty much the only thing left at high level in this game. Every suspicion about something being overpowered or underpowered should be investigated by the devs imediatly and fix or a statement given about why they feel it is ok like it is.
If people on the forum and esp. in game are talking about PPUs ruining PvPs fight on daily basis, something must be into it...people who played this game on a regular basis since day 1.
I am aware of the influence of whinners who got a beating from <insert any class here> and will call for a nerf, but some things are just too obvious and I am pretty sure devs have a brain on their own to see what is a real issue and what is just pure bullshit.
Yes, I'm pissed. I'm really getting tired of all these balancing problems and KK doing nothing about it or doing it way too late. I really enjoyed PvP in NC, I loved it, but currently the fun in PvP is fading away.
I find myself more and more logged on my LE enhanced trading spy and logging onto my APU, tank or PE only when there are not enought people in the clans I'm in to defend an OP :(
ericdraven
15-09-03, 12:57
Originally posted by Original monk
hehe now its the turn of the APU to get dissed at and nerfed :P about them sniping: yeah last night i was snipin with my silent hunter, my amazement was big when i yust got sniped back to dead with a HolyLightning :P so yeah them monks yust snipe ya back LOL, then whats the use of that scope on my gun ? they dont need a scope it seems :P
Yes, i can imagine it's a problem to "snipe" an APU who is 50 m away altho you got a weapon which can snipe over 3000m (theoretical) and still at least 500m (practically). ;)
/EDIT: It's the same as i would walk DIRECTLY in front of a Grim Chaser and shoot it with my First Love. Possible? Yes! Clever? Not really.
I'm a capped PE. When I go hunting Grims and Co I don't stand a chance against an APU. He deals so much damage and due to ne neglectance of LOS for spells can hide where I can't. He takes Grims down faster than me. I would say okay to this but he also seams to take less damage than me, cause he is up and killing again while I'm killing my grim. Thats IMHO to much. And we are talking about fire mobs not energy mobs.
{MD}GeistDamnit
15-09-03, 13:02
Why must this be posted every month at least once?? :mad:
apu's arent overpowered, they hit hard and are weak. I hardly ever loose as an apu yes, but that' cause I'm good. And when I do loose it is cause someone is better at that time.
If they change apu's to have to aim I'm gone. That is just wack boring and a slap in the face to the inital design. I hate when people wanna fuck with something that is not broken! :mad:
ericdraven
15-09-03, 13:04
Originally posted by svenw
I'm a capped PE. When I go hunting Grims and Co I don't stand a chance against an APU. He deals so much damage and due to ne neglectance of LOS for spells can hide where I can't. He takes Grims down faster than me. I would say okay to this but he also seams to take less damage than me, cause he is up and killing again while I'm killing my grim. Thats IMHO to much. And we are talking about fire mobs not energy mobs.
APUs ARE supposed to be the BIGGEST damage dealer in the game. Even more damage than a tank and for sure more than a PE.
An APU could say the same about a PE defense-wise: you got lots of resists, shelter, blessed deflector, capped heal (which can heal you within a few seconds) and have probably the BEST defense (after PPUs, of course). ;)
i have an APU and he deals dmg that is incredible, we need the high dmg to kill quicly so we take less dmg.
The range should be around 50% of what it is now, the LoS thing is interresting but could be too annoying, i say it should be used on test server first to see how it works out.
But nerf the range.
- Napalm
ericdraven
15-09-03, 13:25
Originally posted by Napalm82
i have an APU and he deals dmg that is incredible, we need the high dmg to kill quicly so we take less dmg.
The range should be around 50% of what it is now, the LoS thing is interresting but could be too annoying, i say it should be used on test server first to see how it works out.
But nerf the range.
APUs should own the mid range.
They are not supposed to fight in close range. That would be the same as pistol wielding spies WITHOUT stealth -> dead meat.
Originally posted by ericdraven
APUs ARE supposed to be the BIGGEST damage dealer in the game. Even more damage than a tank and for sure more than a PE.
An APU could say the same about a PE defense-wise: you got lots of resists, shelter, blessed deflector, capped heal (which can heal you within a few seconds) and have probably the BEST defense (after PPUs, of course). ;)
Nothing against it. The APU should deal more damage than an PE. But with all my heals shelter etc I can kill less frequently than an APU. An APU should need the spared time from killing for recovery (shit or no heals) but he is up and killing again when I'm not even finished with my Grim. And thats IMHO to much. And he doesn't take so low damage, cause he kills so quick but mostly because the can hide very good because he doesn't need line of sight.
ericdraven
15-09-03, 13:31
Originally posted by svenw
Nothing against it. The APU should deal more damage than an PE. But with all my heals shelter etc I can kill less frequently than an APU. An APU should need the spared time from killing for recovery (shit or no heals) but he is up and killing again when I'm not even finished with my Grim. And thats IMHO to much. And he doesn't take so low damage, cause he kills so quick but mostly because the can hide very good because he doesn't need line of sight.
What about you hiding as well and not running bravely in front of the Chaser?
When i fight Chasers with my SPY i usually do not lose ONE single healthpoint because - i do hide. ;)
Originally posted by FBI
the tank class is dying :(
i dont play on pluto because my tank is boring yet i dont wanna
delete him :|
heh same as me, i dont wanna delete him but i cba to log him
Originally posted by ericdraven
What about you hiding as well and not running bravely in front of the Chaser?
When i fight Chasers with my SPY i usually do not lose ONE single healthpoint because - i do hide. ;)
I guess he has the lack of LOS requirement in mind...
The APU's damage needs to be higher then any other class', otherwise there would be not much point for APU's existance.
But the problem often is a) the range b) the lack of LOS requirement what you usually can very good see at places like Cycrows with APUs standing slighly behind the wall while still able to target the mobs. APU hits the mob hard, the mob can in now way hit the APU. Basically the safe spot syndrom.
Then again, what choices do we actually have? Getting the APU to get out faceing the Grim and giving APUs enough damage to kill such a mob before it kills the APU - that would really unbalance the APU in PvP.
Voodoochicken
15-09-03, 13:45
Not sure if this if on topic, but:
IMO, the movespeed restriction from getting hit in the legs should be reduced.
maybe so you never move slower than your walk speed (assuming you aren't overloaded).
(If I'm fighting mobs, I try to get hit in the head as much as possible, rather than my legs, and this seems a little wrong to me)
I realise that APUs slow to a crawl very easily. Perhaps if they didn't, they wouldn't need to output so much damage?
(It's annoying as any class to have 200 hps left, but become immobile all of a sudden.. And it's not like getting hit in the head or chest affects, eg, your aim.)
Besides which, aiming for the head should be much more important in PvP, because it's a smaller target.
Aiming for the legs is incredibly easy, becasue they are quite a large target (and who's going to crouch to try and protect them?)
I only have a rank 28 APU, but already I can fire a long way (probably further than if I was using pistols at the same lvl) and I dont have to wait for a reticule.
It might be good if there was a chance for a spell that is aimed correctly to miss/do no damage, which increases with range.
(fizzling doesn't really count anymore when you can runcast)
ericdraven
15-09-03, 13:50
Originally posted by Lucjan
I guess he has the lack of LOS requirement in mind...
The APU's damage needs to be higher then any other class', otherwise there would be not much point for APU's existance.
But the problem often is a) the range b) the lack of LOS requirement what you usually can very good see at places like Cycrows with APUs standing slighly behind the wall while still able to target the mobs. APU hits the mob hard, the mob can in now way hit the APU. Basically the safe spot syndrom.
Heh.. as if other classes don't have the "safe spot syndrom".
The last days i was leveling my spy and also used this "syndrom" to go very close to Chasers.
Chasers only shoot with their right claw (or however you call it :p) - so i approach the Chaser in a way that the right claw is behind a hill. Or if i am directly in front of it - i use a hill that his claw is "under" the "horizon". Again - i can hit the mob, the mob can't hit me. So it works also with rifles and NOT only for spells. And if it works for rifles it will do for cannons and pistols as well.
Exploit? Yes, sure.. some people see exploits everywhere. I'd rather call it "tactic", because if you fight Chasers in the open field you are quite stupid.
You know what I meant with that Cycrows example, eric.
Using your described tactics for Chasers/Reapers or standing on a building or other higher obstacle while fighting a Persecutor/Mauler isnt the thing I was writing about...
ericdraven
15-09-03, 14:21
Originally posted by Lucjan
You know what I meant with that Cycrows example, eric.
Using your described tactics for Chasers/Reapers or standing on a building or other higher obstacle while fighting a Persecutor/Mauler isnt the thing I was writing about...
Erm, well, sorry, i play this game 8 months now but never leveled at Cycrow. :)
The apu right now is a mid range fighter, not a supporter.. the only way an apu has to support, is as artillery.
Locational Damage.
This shouldnt be removed from apu's, as every class can do it, and specially can cripple apu legs easier than to any other class, due the lack of health.
Range.
This is a controversial subject, but let's look at the other midrange fighter, the tank. Heavy Combat tanks are classified as mid range fighters, and they can reach acceptable distances with cannons (too much in the SpeedGun, over 500m), and true mid range distances with AoE.
Maybe this was the first mistake in apu's; our midrange spells are the most used and most powerfull single attacks. Also due the clipping plane, the other range units (as snipers) cannot be as far as they should be from the battle, which turns them into the main target of apu monks; this combined with the attack power of apu's and the extremely weak defence of spies, is what makes the range issue of apu's a bigger problem that it should be.
Basically, the game is not prepared to have 1000m+ as long range, 250m+ as midrange and 100m as close; because the clipping plane and the fps engine doesnt allow this.
The Solution. As I see the problem, apu's should switch ranges in their spells.
#1 The single target spells, like beams, should have their range reduced to an acceptable value; about 180m.
#2 AoE spells should have an increased range, let's say 150m. This woud make the apu a real midrange supporter, like the AoE Tank is.
The two solutions above are the easy way to balance without nerfing.
#3 (this would be the ideal solution) KK should eliminate the clipping plane and rework their engine to allow players to play in its respective distances and ranges.
This third solution would be the hard way of KK to deal with this issue, but also the most effective and fair to every class and its gameplay.
LoS in Spells.
This is a complicated matter; the monk is the only class which, due the existance of beam type spells, can fire its weapons even trought obstacles, or even making a last shot when the target is out of the Line of Sight, if this has been targeted before.
I can see the problem here; but as a monk, the beam type attacks supposse an important part in the damage dealing capability of the monk, which survavility relies in the instant damage dealed by beams, not needing to wait for a proyectile impact.
Making all monk (apu) attacks proyectile type, should be really tested carefully before implementing; and as a first change, having tested spells with this kind of fire type, I could say that RoF in spells should be increased with this change.
Side note to Shadow Dancer
Shadow, you have a problem with all these threads. As most of the threads that you have started, the issues presented to change lack of a globaly evaluation.
The ideas are good, but in order to make a change you cannot simply put the meal in the fire, and let others deal with it. Changes should be evaluated carefully, giving good reasons and sorting/fixing the future possible problems originated by these changes. Anticipate to the facts.
I have read all your brainport ideas, and I must say that are good, but overall they lack of a carefully evaluation. This is like opening the box of flames. The same happened with ppu's parashocks and their role importance in the game; the idea is correct, but the presentation was not done as carefully as it should have been done.
This is all, and as a clarification to everyone, the apu monk is as supporter as a HC Tank is; no more than that.
I agree with the projectile thing also, about ranges. I think all the range formulas should be recalculated using the max drawing distance as max range. That way everybodys range would be shortened but it would actually make the weapon differences how they are supposed to be.
Originally posted by cracky
I agree with the projectile thing also, about ranges. I think all the range formulas should be recalculated using the max drawing distance as max range. That way everybodys range would be shortened but it would actually make the weapon differences how they are supposed to be.
Sounds interessting, but considering that weapon's range influences how fast you aim with pistols, rifles and cannons, wouldnt it end up in a total mess?
Originally posted by Lucjan
Sounds interessting, but considering that weapon's range influences how fast you aim with pistols, rifles and cannons, wouldnt it end up in a total mess?
Excelent thought.
Maybe the aplication of ranges to aiming issues should be tweaked in a different form; as far as I know pistols aiming is heavily influenced by this.
That's true they would probably have to change everything that's connected to range a little, but it's alot more realistic then wanting to extend the drawing distance.
Just make all APU spells shoot from the hand, take away random damage, less range?
The only thing that bugs me with APUs is their super holy lightning that follows you around corners.
QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 16:39
Unfortunatly, if the max range of pistols were reduced much further, weapons like TSG would out lock the mainstay of pistols -_-
Anyway, I don't really see why APUs should have projectile damage.
Locational damaeg;
Being a Pistol PE that Duels APUs a fair bit, it goes like this;
APU Shoots out PEs legs, PE Dies. - Nothing PE can do about it..period.
APU Fights without shooting PEs legs, 50/50 depending on weaponry, skill, resists, luck.
Vs Pistols anyway... then again, Pistol PEs are naturally at a disadvantage against a class that uses the Pistol PEs main defencive advantage and has much higher damage weaponry.
It's not unbalanced though.
At least, not all that much.
I think locational damages maximum effectivity should probably be slightly reduced...
KidWithStick
15-09-03, 16:39
noooooo fuck that.
my APU isnt capped...and only caps HL damage when PSI 3 buffed, and since i hardly get buffed to go into a fight im hardly overpowered.
the only time i think there overpowered is when a PPU comes to bitch buff.
the only thing that needs changing is the random damage, if it wasnt random you wouldnt di insane damage on other people, but like how it used to be.
dont nerf anything else unless its holy para.
:rolleyes: when i posted this a while ago shadow was the first to flame me
but as i said before LoS should be made a thing for monks as it is a big factor
also range should be reduced as most tanks only have one weapon over range TSG 500m and the rest have like 100m range MAX and talking about CS at 100m 2/4 will miss so *shrugs*
(side note: then again Tanks only really have 2 weapons tsg +cs)
you was talking about Tanks being mid range fighters due to AoE,
o_O how many tanks u know that have AoE on them bar OP fights??
meh
That's not correct QD; as pistol PE any piercing weapon can cripple the APU legs as fast as the apu does in your PE.
Locational damage is not exclusive from monks, and apu's are specially weak to this tactic.
Also imo changing the range affecting aiming issues would help pistol users, since the low range on pistols act as a negative modifier in the reticle lock speed.
That is incorrect aswell Ryuben, my Range in CS is 351m, and SpeedGun goes over 500m.
Also maybe you should ask yourself the question: how many OP wars have you had in the game?
Incountable times I have been bombarded by Moonstriker, Maledictions and Doombeamers, and if tanks havent been used more as mid range fighters is because beams of monks are more effective.
Hence the change suggested regarding barrels and single target spells.
QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 16:53
Only weapon most Pistol PE Users have in their arsenal that can do controllable locational damage (liberator is not very good for this due to recoil), is the tangent epic laser pistol.
As for pistol aiming with short range;
See Wyatt Earp.
If your point was nerfing all the other peoples aim speed proportionately well, I suppose it's fair in some ways, but the problem is if pistols all end up like wyatt, they instantly become useless against skilled opponents.
anyway
Now I've come to think about it a bit more, and upon reflection of the fight SSC had yesterday I don't think the range should be too much of a problem...after all, much shorter, and APU range goes below the distance of Jeriko front gate and jeriko hack room, this would seriously impeed op wars available tactics, and it would pretty much leave ANY Ranged attack that's even remotely useful to;
Drones/AoE Tanks
Moving the barrels up to cover it, isn't a bad idea, but control of barrels, especially in third is not good enough to make them long range weaponry (to me 150m is long okay? :PPPPPPP)
Seriously, though, I'm unsure about nerfing range or LOS of APU.
Possibly the locational damage (to an extent, making it possible to still retreat but not to the point that you've been parashocked).
Heh.
edit;
btw, @ Tank AoE, these days in op fights I consider Tank AoE more of a distraction than anything else.
Why?
Well, when you look at Tank AoE from a PPU Backed point of view, especially when you're a PE....it's useless o_O
As in it can't kill...
it can wear down, it good against defenders who are using turrets, but it can't win you a fight.
One small remark on the weapon ranges: please don't make the mistake to rely on what the weapon's info screen says, several weapons have wrong numbers in there, Speedgun is a good example of wrong data, the TT epic pistol would be another one. Please think of weapons and their range as well as their behavour as how they work in the game, not numbers on the info screen.
Maybe you are misunderstanting my post QD. I am talking about making the distances more realistic, to me pistols do not need any reduction in range, but probably in cases like Wyatt an increase.
However I feel that the formula which related to aiming modifies the speed of the lock based on the distance should be tweaked. I am surprised that you dont agree with me in this... O_o
Pistols like liberator have aiming problems, not damage problems, and this is due an excesive slow speed of reticle lock (excesive for pistols); allowing pistols aim faster at point black with independacy of their range would be a good step to improve it.
About TEP or other energy weapons against monks... that's the reason I dont use poison against tanks in close combat. That's a problem of your choice of weaponry; monks have very good energy resists, all provided by armors, even without holy spirit belt.
Would I use poison against QD? even when I know that it's his main weakness? Of course I wouldnt, I have to select my weapons for each fight. You cannot cripple monk legs with energy pistols (not easily), but piercing weapons, specially liberator are a fast way to do it, specially if the monk is wearing mr gimp psi controler 3.
Regarding AoE cannons, they are not used more because the most powerful spells of apu's already cover that role. Althought they are used and are effective, specially moonstriker. Of course against PE's who duel at point black and have capped force/pierce resists AoE doesnt become a choice.
I see that you are only looking from the point of view of the PE. That's not fair.
That would be a good start to see on the test server if it would make APUs more balanced. But then again, what are the chances we will get there this year? I somehow can't get rid of the feeling KK doesnt care too much about balancing, that thing that is so fundamental in a highly PvP oriented game.
Lucjan said that, I"m not gonna quote his whole post tho. Just wanted to say that it exactly reflects how I feel.
I've felt for a while that APUs are too much, but especially now that the PA gives them more APU than ever. The fact is that APUs don't need to have any defense in a PvP situation, because they do so much damage that they slay almost anyone and anything in a handful of shots, have great speed, and can runcast. Plus, they DO have access to the best armor defenses in the game.
I will once again say that pure monks don't work, and they've destroyed the game for me. Unkillable PPUs like Kaiser Soze, Polarity, Pete the Psi and Carinth coupled with kill-you-before-you-can-blink APUs like Ben Grim, fw, and Shadow Dancer make monks just plain WRONG! Think about it, gotta be well over half the bitch-whine-nerf threads on this forum are about monks. When was the last time you saw a thread where someone complained about an unkillable tank? That made you laugh, didn't it? When a tank kills good, he's usually considered skilled. When a monk kills good, he's just leaning on his overpowered class.
Delete all the Holy-level spells, remove all the specialization bonuses for monks, rework the PA, and just assume that all monks will be hybrids. Then balance accordingly.
Originally posted by hivemind
Delete all the Holy-level spells, remove all the specialization bonuses for monks, rework the PA, and just assume that all monks will be hybrids. Then balance accordingly.
oh how many times have i said that if you ever seem me on pluto look at the clan rank my tank has
QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 17:25
You forget I have a CON 92 Fully capped Tank and a PSI 97 Base PPU :p
Actually, my PPU is my main character now, even though I haven't managed to get him into clan yet.
I didn't realise you didn't want to reduce pistol range..which, then to me makes it slightly unfair on the other weapons, lucjan is right TEPs range isn't what it says on the box but it's still extremely long.
As for removing APU/Other peoples legs with Pistols...trust me, in dueling or ranged combat TEP > Lib.. lib's recoil makes it near impossible to do that accurately..
What I was actually trying to say, is this;
Scenario;
Two Sides Face off, entrenched.
One side has a mixture of Tanks and Monks.
The other has a mixture of PEs and Monks.
The PEs will attempt to draw fire, and attempt to draw the Tanks and the APUs out from cover, and then recover to their entrenchment when they run low on health to recover themselves.
The Tanks will bombard the enemy with AoE, the problem is, with holy heal running it would be unlikely Moonie would kill anything that's s/d'd.
The PEs will concentrate their fire on the AoEers to get rid of the stupid screenshake. (Human nature).
APUs will use similiar range to the tank aoe with direct fire weaponry.
Yes, you can say this is unbalanced but hear me out;
With The Tank AoE flying, the match would last until people run out of ammo, because AoE from Tanks is damn near useless if fighting against good opponents, be they monks/tanks/pes/spies.
The problem there is not really just the power of the APU but the uselessness of tanks AoE.
That issue, to me, is much more complex than just APUs range being too high.
Yes, APU Range is somewhat too high, however I couldn't really seriously suggestion you make any other change to them...
What I mean is not reduce weapons range except pistols, but make the range more realistic than it is now. What is the purpose of having a 2000m+ range in a sniper rifle, when you can snipe as good with your Assault Rifle.
That's pointless, and as the changes in clipping distance is something that KK has considered and dismissed, making ranges more realistic to what we have in the game engine is more than an acceptable solution.
That's all, I dont want to enter in specific weapons range, like TEP or Wyatt, that would be up to the KK team, and Lupus most likely.. do you understand what I say now?
This should be combined with a change in the formula that says "more range = better aiming speed", otherwise we all would suffer a great aiming decrease, and would turn into a mess, as Lucjan pointed.
Ok, range issue explained (hopefully).
Now about locational damage. This is something that all classes have, and is not fair to remove it from monks, just because TEP users cannot cripple legs.
To me, leg shots in a tank are a fast way to die, unless I catch him totally in surprise, or he decides to run away from me. Apu monks are specially weak to this kind of tactic, so in order to make it fair, we are allowed to do the same.
From my own experience, Liberator > any other pistol, even RoLH.
This is against monks. I have my resists very well covered, and with the new PA even more energy, so TEP or Blacksun is not a chance to win against me, unless you have an awesome dodge skill and fast speed, simply because I can outdamage by far the damage you do to me with those weapons.
I hope this point is explained... other than that QD, we just disagree.
About apu range and LoS... do you really think I want to be nerfed? *sigh*
I am giving possible solutions, because people is complaining about this matter.. I have to think with impartiality, and not being in denial about being nerfed. I hate to have my apu monk nerfed as much as any other.
Of course that AoE of tanks should be more effective, and I would be very happy to make tanks more viable in midrange by AoE, than nerfing my apu range.
AoE from tanks are not useless, but totally outclassed by beams of monks... powerfull single target attacks, with the same range than AoE cannons, and triple faster RoF... no way to compete against it. However this IS also the role of apu's.
PE's and Spies, to me, are most likely useless in OP fights except for hacking. It's the truth, and it's sad... with ppu's healing and buffing everyone, only the biggest firepower counts, which makes apu monks and, in a lesser role, tanks the true OutPost fighters. Add this to the fact that apu's are the only class with an effective tool against ppu's, Holy Antibuff, and you will realize which is the true combat class in this game.
To me improving other classes to make them useful, as much as monks or more, would be perfect, ideal!. That's what I always wanted.. but to be completely realistic, that wont happen. Enought has KK with balancing monks, to ask them to balance all the classes.
That's why I suggested those changes to the LoS needed for spells and the apu range.
You dont need to discuss with me about this; I dont want my main char nerfed, I dont disagree with you.. I am just trying to not be in denial with my class.
From a purely selfish point of view I wouldn't mind seeing a change to certain of the APU spells.
Example:
Holy Lightning dmg per min (max, thoretical) : 245,385
["real world" value, taking into account mana regen/PSI boosters/random damage modifier/fizzles is more like 150,000]
Silent Hunter dmg per min (max, theoretical) : 38,208
["real world" value taking into account reload time, reticle close time/random miss factor is more like 25,000]
Due to clipping plane issues and whatnot I effectively only have 200m or so more range than the APU.
It takes *minimum* of 3 shots to kill even an unbuffed APU - that's 8+seconds.
(Due to way game mechanics calculate health loss, not individual shot damage)
Can you see where this is going and why 90% of my poor ickle spies deaths are due to being toasted/fried by APUs ? :D
Admittedly some of this is due to the broken-ness of sniper rifles but the same argument holds true for APU versus pretty much any ranged weapon.
From my point of view I think that range is the biggest overpowering factor and is the most easily fixable without fucking up the APU in other regards.
250m+ is simply too much when compared to all the other classes and applied to the mechanics of the game engine.
High rate of fire would be much more difficult to argue for a reasonable nerf and still let an APU survive PvM.
Besides - even if we took a massive 50% RoF nerf to the HL I would die in 3.4 seconds instead of 1.7 seconds.
Whoopee-fucking-do :(
Most other potential "fixes" would involve major changes to the game engine, and I can't see that happenign any time soon.
Anyway - in summary what I am trying to say is that there should always be a converse penalty for damage at range capability- be it low RoF, low dmg per hit, high miss rate, poor defence, requirement to be static etc etc
It's a two sided equation - increase one side, and the other must decrease or you have an imbalance.
Some APU spells are unbalanced right now and certainly need fixing.
I've tried to see it from an APUs eyes - I think trimming range would be easiest way to bring PvP back into balance, without upsetting the PvM balance.
Opinions ?
I'd like that people evaluate the cons of apu's aswell, like is not being able to cast the most basic ppu buffs, even a simple heal.
It's an habit to see always the pro's of a class, and ignoring the con's.
Like everyone can see the stealth in spies, their awesome x-ray armor or the amazing range of certain rifles... but forget the fact of that stealthers can die in that state, the lack of fire armor or cons, and the clipping distance which nerfs the range of rifles.
That is um... quite unfair.
A SH shot can cripple the legs of an apu, and the apu doesnt have the chance to uncripple the legs with a basic heal; however here some people asked to remove locational damage from apu modules.
As I try to see the arguments from every point of view, I'd like that people did the same. It's not asking much, is it?
@ slewar u say ur CS has (the number on it) is over 300m ? correct well u get a gun that fires 250m then get ur CS and stood still fo course and the target ^.^ u see how many of ur CS shots hit said target u _might_ be suprised thats why if u read my psot properly it made sense don't jsut skim read, if u want to make constructive comments.
You still want your anti ress spell ? :p
I have been thinking apus were overpowered since I realised my apu was my BEST class to duel with. Point blank duels with any class and I was winning too easily against people and perhaps beating people that I shouldnt have been able to. The fact is that their damage output is about twice as much as a CS (lupus has the exact figures somehwhere) infact a holy energylance does the SAME damage as a CS over time if it is fully capped.
However, it is not the damage that really concerns me but the fact there is no randomness effecting it. You could stand still and shoot someone 250m away without waiting for a reticle to close and do about 100 dmg with a HL for the first shot, then 90, then 80, then like 70, then 50, then 40 and they die. All this in approx 4 seconds.
Shadow Dancer
15-09-03, 21:26
Originally posted by Lucjan
That would be a good start to see on the test server if it would make APUs more balanced. But then again, what are the chances we will get there this year? I somehow can't get rid of the feeling KK doesnt care too much about balancing, that thing that is so fundamental in a highly PvP oriented game.
Why can't they just change the graphic to the "energy ball" graphic? Errr, and make it 4x as fast lol.
Originally posted by Lucjan
If people on the forum and esp. in game are talking about PPUs ruining PvPs fight on daily basis, something must be into it...people who played this game on a regular basis since day 1.
I am aware of the influence of whinners who got a beating from <insert any class here> and will call for a nerf, but some things are just too obvious and I am pretty sure devs have a brain on their own to see what is a real issue and what is just pure bullshit.
Yes, I'm pissed. I'm really getting tired of all these balancing problems and KK doing nothing about it or doing it way too late. I really enjoyed PvP in NC, I loved it, but currently the fun in PvP is fading away.
I find myself more and more logged on my LE enhanced trading spy and logging onto my APU, tank or PE only when there are not enought people in the clans I'm in to defend an OP :(
I totally feel you.
Originally posted by ericdraven
Erm, well, sorry, i play this game 8 months now but never leveled at Cycrow. :)
omg really?
Originally posted by Sleawer
Shadow, you have a problem with all these threads. As most of the threads that you have started, the issues presented to change lack of a globaly evaluation.
The ideas are good, but in order to make a change you cannot simply put the meal in the fire, and let others deal with it. Changes should be evaluated carefully, giving good reasons and sorting/fixing the future possible problems originated by these changes. Anticipate to the facts.
I have read all your brainport ideas, and I must say that are good, but overall they lack of a carefully evaluation.
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Ryuben
:rolleyes: when i posted this a while ago shadow was the first to flame me
I didn't flame you, loll.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Yes, APU Range is somewhat too high, however I couldn't really seriously suggestion you make any other change to them...
Well reduce our range considerably on direct damage spells, and then TOTALLY REVAMP our aoe. Sorry but our aoe is ass, to put it bluntly. Who the hell thought up the idea of "barrels"? omg how freaking useless. I want aoe that's usable in more than .00005% of PvP situations. And i don't get into rare barrels. 39m, 35 Rof, AND 147 mana???? WTF???
We need much better form of AOE.
Oh and QD, explosive lib takes out my legs in about 1.5 seconds no lie. Lib may not take out tank or pes legs quick, but it sure does for monks due to low health+piercing weakness+yoyo health.
Originally posted by kurai
I've tried to see it from an APUs eyes - I think trimming range would be easiest way to bring PvP back into balance, without upsetting the PvM balance.
Opinions ?
We can still deal stupid crazy damage and be balanced. Hell I said this along time ago, if KK wanted us to be support chars then they should have given us a wider variety of spells. For example, a spell called Energy vortex that has the power of 4 hls, but has such low rof and high mana cost it's simply unusable 1v1. You would need teammates to distract the enemy or get them off your back. But like I said, the problem with apu being non viable for1v1 or solo pvp, is that they start becoming dependant on ppus totally, which would be TEH LAMEZERZ!
Yes rizzy I still want my spell. LOLORZ
bout time you admitted to this! :) twice today i've been "sniped" by a APU monk once at Chester by that god-damn-sonofabitch with a FA and you at CRP with that friggin HL.
Fair enough you do the most damage, but almost the best friggin range?.. c'mon it needs a tone down.. not a nerf.. but toned down to a point where i wont hear "omg un nerf teh HL!!111oneone"
you know what pisses me off thow is that if the clipping issues was sorted out it wouldn't be such a problem, or make it so u can _only_ see threw the clipping distance with a scoped gun (sniper only) then it would remove some of the problem, how ever as it is monks need there range capping at about 150m MAX
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 03:40
Originally posted by Barak
bout time you admitted to this! :) twice today i've been "sniped" by a APU monk once at Chester by that god-damn-sonofabitch with a FA and you at CRP with that friggin HL.
You should be happy that that monk was using FA against you, it's a horrible spell. :p
Anyways, to be honest I also think pes shouldn't even be able to snipe at all either. *gets flamed*
Just my honest opinion. :p
Originally posted by Ryuben
you know what pisses me off thow is that if the clipping issues was sorted out it wouldn't be such a problem, or make it so u can _only_ see threw the clipping distance with a scoped gun (sniper only) then it would remove some of the problem, how ever as it is monks need there range capping at about 150m MAX
Progenitor
16-09-03, 05:11
Range:
I was teamed with a PE and a Tank earlier tonight. Both of them were shooting Grims way before the Grim could target either of them. Me and my 264m beams couldn't even get close without the Grim hitting me before I could hit it. Monks don't have anywhere near the range of the other classes. I'd kill to have that range even on my holy halo spells. Plus, they have the armor and the resists to stand toe-to-toe longer than I could, plus they can cast TL3 Heal on themsleves, plus a few buffs.
Location Damage:
I could see how monks should do damage equally to all three spots, but I'd have to see how that affects our overall damage. That might be an exceptional nerf to our damage ability.
LOS:
We use our minds to project psychic energy - we just need to see our target to hit it. Makes up for our poor defenses.
-p
thewarrior008
16-09-03, 05:12
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
:(
After doin some PKin and killin recently, i've come to the conclusion apus might be overpowered. And i'm not talking about damage output. I think one, both, or all 3 of the options below should happen to balance them.
1.Their range needs to be reduced. 264m on such a powerful weapon as HL is a bit too much. Also it's a bit unfair to the silent hunter. I remmeber one spy telling me he did 140 to a tank once with silent hunter. I can do that with HL. O_o Not to mention when a spy is sniping me(and there are no mountains around) due to fog and clipping plane, he's usually close by. So I run up a bit and kill him in 2-3 hits. So until something is done about the fog/clipping plane issue for spies, i don't think it's fair for APUs to get so much range.
2.Locational damage needs to be removed, or make everyshot a "head"shot. When you combine legs hits with high damage, fast speed, and loooooooong range, well..........It's almost a guaranteed victory. No fight in PvP should be a guaranteed victory IMO.
3.They need to make all apu spells projectile attacks so that they require LOS.
Some thoughts. I think KK didn't implement the PPU OR APU correctly. I won't get into the PPU issue, but KK said they never wanted apus to be good solo in PvP. Their really off the mark. Apus can be awesome solo in PvP. The reason I never said something about apus being good solo is because I believe it would be extremely difficult to make the apu class a pure support class(like ppu) without making him crap.
Let me explain. The ppu is pure defense/healer/etc.... The PPU simply needs A damage dealing class. The PPU can team up with and be effective with any other NON ppu class. Since their are a bajillion players of any other class, this isn't a problem. But if the apu was made weak enough to the point where he's pure support(sort of like the way he was in the very beginning), then he's dependant on the PPU only. Meaning they would become dependant on a SUB-class(ppu) of a class(monk), making them extremely limited. Thank god it's not that way right now, but if it ever did become that way I would cry lol.
Anyways just wanted to rant a bit. :p
Your thoughts? :angel:
me too http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/violent/sterb234.gif
QuantumDelta
16-09-03, 06:31
Originally posted by Progenitor
Range:
I was teamed with a PE and a Tank earlier tonight. Both of them were shooting Grims way before the Grim could target either of them. Me and my 264m beams couldn't even get close without the Grim hitting me before I could hit it. Monks don't have anywhere near the range of the other classes. I'd kill to have that range even on my holy halo spells. Plus, they have the armor and the resists to stand toe-to-toe longer than I could, plus they can cast TL3 Heal on themsleves, plus a few buffs.
Location Damage:
I could see how monks should do damage equally to all three spots, but I'd have to see how that affects our overall damage. That might be an exceptional nerf to our damage ability.
LOS:
We use our minds to project psychic energy - we just need to see our target to hit it. Makes up for our poor defenses.
-p
Re Locational damage;
BlackSun has no locational damage, it still does massive damage, if anything that's one of the reasons I think it does even the damage it does.
Re LoS;
That was how I rationalised it too.
Remember you're used to being a solo APU if memory serves...
Re Range;
Speed Gat > APU
CS Isn't really viable for sniping (but not really unviable either...)
All Pistols < APU (as it should be).
Rifles > All.
I still don't personally see a huge problem.......
One of the big problems is IMHO that apu spells didn't need to target and doesn't need LOS.
Why not make APU spells like normal weapons. They are used like one, why not make them target like one?
Of cause you have to remove the "thinking second" before the spell fires. A sniper has to stand still to have a good aim on on a ranged target, an APU doesn't. Technics that work against other classes (speed, circling) doesn't work against APUs cause of their aiming.
I'm with hivemind. Monks should be hybrids with APU/PPU specialisation. then you have the chance to decide if you will be team (pure APU/PPU) or solo (full Hybrid/ part time APU/PPU) player.
the small spells should be open to all monks but at a certain stage the malus should kick in to balance the hybrids.
ericdraven
16-09-03, 10:19
Originally posted by svenw
One of the big problems is IMHO that apu spells didn't need to target and doesn't need LOS.
Why not make APU spells like normal weapons. They are used like one, why not make them target like one?
Of cause you have to remove the "thinking second" before the spell fires. A sniper has to stand still to have a good aim on on a ranged target, an APU doesn't. Technics that work against other classes (speed, circling) doesn't work against APUs cause of their aiming.
Let me guess - you never played an APU monk, did you? ;)
I was actually thinking about reducing the max range on at least some of the APU modules (HL etc, they have maxranges similar to rifles...). Gonna have to make some tests first though.
i got my hybrid on test server still :) shout if you want it i have one of every beam spell etc all 5 slotted on 120% range etc
Originally posted by Thanatos
I was actually thinking about reducing the max range on at least some of the APU modules (HL etc, they have maxranges similar to rifles...). Gonna have to make some tests first though.
make HL melee and rename it FECK OFF SIZE STATIC SHOCK !!!!11111111 o_O that should tame down the PPU's and give it a nice enough range nerf ^^ :lol:
you love me dont you than, and because you love me, you _will_ implement my ideas :D:D:D j/k
WHY are pople fuck agreeing now?? I POINTED THIS OUT OVER A MONTH AGO and all i got was 'you noob, live with it' 'get some skills' bullshit!
QuantumDelta
16-09-03, 15:44
Edit;
Nah...better not pick on the witless...
are you talking about me QD? what do you mean 'pick', how can you 'pick' on someone over the internet ?
ericdraven
16-09-03, 15:58
Originally posted by Thanatos
I was actually thinking about reducing the max range on at least some of the APU modules (HL etc, they have maxranges similar to rifles...). Gonna have to make some tests first though.
Uah... i see it coming.. like the "little" range nerf of the HP.. down to the half.. an APU with 130 m range? Useless.. i will probably switch over to Wyatt Earp then. :p
QuantumDelta
16-09-03, 15:58
Anything that would victimise another? =P
Go check your thread about this.
You'll notice there is a difference between yours, and Shadow Dancers.
What's more, Shadow is an actual APU, so his oppinion, by far has more weight than yours.
ZoneVortex
16-09-03, 16:10
um.....nerf the Shad O_o
I gotta agree with arc. The range on some apu spells is rediculous. But also on the flip side apu's rely on that to keep distance between mobs to lvl. Maybe they should leave one particular spell class with great range but reduce the others.
Everything else is fine with apus. People are complaining that we do the most damage. Well guess what were supposed to, that has always been the purpose of the apu to deal the most damage and have the weakest defense. Anyone attacking an apu with anything energy related should not even comment on this thread its just plain stupid.
Not sure a full nerf is required, but the picture you paint of a Spy sniper getting out-sniped by a Holy Lightning does suggest something is awry.
Also the line of sight thing? Fair point. Perhaps the current fire-when-hidden spells should not be the ones that do the most damage. If the best APU spells require LOS then you have a choice to make, between damage and convenience.
hey guys ! lets just nerf the apus to a range of 2 meters and make them deal less damage than a mendicant smg! thats it...... ooo im a tank that got pwned by an apu becasue he has skills............ get over it............ they are meant to have the best dmg in the game... just like kk said so the issue of a spy using a sh who probably doesnt even come close to capping it and a apu monk that caps holy lighting is a whoel different story........
i say get over it
i am an apu monk on saturn if you want to come kill me go for it.
Originally posted by zAo
hey guys ! lets just nerf the apus to a range of 2 meters and make them deal less damage than a mendicant smg! thats it...... ooo im a tank that got pwned by an apu becasue he has skills............ get over it............ they are meant to have the best dmg in the game... just like kk said so the issue of a spy using a sh who probably doesnt even come close to capping it and a apu monk that caps holy lighting is a whoel different story........
i say get over it
i am an apu monk on saturn if you want to come kill me go for it.
o_O
Wow, dude, thanks for enlighting us, how could we get along without your advince all these months?
well if you want to insult me for being completely honest go right ahead but its my opinion that apus are jsut fine the way they are and that everyone that gets killed is usually a tank who thinks they're uber
my point is to leave them the same becasue if you put an apu and a tank in a duel.... 9 times out of 10 the tank will win becasue apus have bad resists
and as i said before the spy wit hthe sh was probably a noob and didnt come close to capping it.... besides that they chould have been smarter to hide before trying to snpie instead of sitting on an open field.... unless they had a cloak ready to go as soon as they saw the apu
apu power!
zAo, but you do realize many of the most experienced players you find in this thread have a slightly different opionion about that issue and the guy who started the thread is one of the best APUs I've ever seen?
If you would spend the time to carefully read all the pages of that thread you should have noticed, that is pretty clear that the APU is a little out of balance and people basically discuss ideas here how to "fix the problem" without some sledgehammer nerf and to tell what actually really the problem is.
Your attitude you managed to present in your post is really the wrong one...
Progenitor
16-09-03, 17:54
I could see toning down fire beam - it's max range is like what - 300-something?
Otherwise, the rest of the beems max out at 264.
Except for pistols (which seem to max out around 190ish) and some ray weapons, we don't outrange any other weapons.
Which puts psi fine in the medium range category.
Most Heavy and just about all rifles outrange us, which they should as they are more long range weapons.
-p
Originally posted by Style
WHY are pople fuck agreeing now?? I POINTED THIS OUT OVER A MONTH AGO and all i got was 'you noob, live with it' 'get some skills' bullshit!
Because when you posted it you posted it along with several lines of crap which was mostly whining. You've just been taught a lesson in how to make a point.
Originally posted by VetteroX
You can also see it in the communty, like saturn, SOOO many people making apus... the sheep always go down the easiest path. You can see it on saturn, all the damn apus, i kill so many everyday, then always get chased off by apu/ppu combo. You can see it on trade channels
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
Looking for psi core
is all the hell you see now.
not so much sheep cos its easy more like in my case the only viable solo hunting setup :) since the hybrid nerf lol and hey a good ppu is far easier to make than a good apu imo and i do have both :)
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 20:47
Originally posted by Thanatos
I was actually thinking about reducing the max range on at least some of the APU modules (HL etc, they have maxranges similar to rifles...). Gonna have to make some tests first though.
HL max range is 264m. I think it would be good around 150m or so IMO. I know fellow apus might disagree. Btw Thanatos for some odd reason firebeam caps at 312m. :eek:
Oh and *cough* give us better aoe, more mana, and leech spell *cough*
:p
Originally posted by Style
are you talking about me QD? what do you mean 'pick', how can you 'pick' on someone over the internet ?
roflmao
:lol:
Originally posted by CR@SH
I gotta agree with arc. The range on some apu spells is rediculous. But also on the flip side apu's rely on that to keep distance between mobs to lvl. Maybe they should leave one particular spell class with great range but reduce the others.
Well no apu spell has enough range to "outrange" mobs. It's the lack of LOS that protects me from grim chasers and allows me to kill them. etc...
Originally posted by CR@SH
Everything else is fine with apus. People are complaining that we do the most damage. Well guess what were supposed to, that has always been the purpose of the apu to deal the most damage and have the weakest defense.
I agree, except we don't have weakest defense, spies do. :p And their slower. :(
Originally posted by Progenitor
Except for pistols (which seem to max out around 190ish) and some ray weapons, we don't outrange any other weapons.
Which puts psi fine in the medium range category.
Most Heavy and just about all rifles outrange us, which they should as they are more long range weapons.
-p
The difference is we don't have recticle and recoil. A pe may attempt to snipe me at range, :lol:, but 99% of the time i'm gonna be the one to kill him because of lack of recticle, rof, and damage output.
Basically, you can't have too much distance on a weapon that does so much damage so quickly.
Here's an example I was at simmons the other day in an op fight. I was being sniped, i turn around and see a tiny spy in the distance. I run towards him and he snipes me again. Then I hit him 2 times for like 85% of his health, he puts his gun away and I kill him before he stealthes. And i'm faaaaaaaaaaar away from him. How's that fair?
Also against a tank, if I catch them at "max" distance and hammer their legs, they have NO chance. I've done it countless times. I woudl ride on hov-tec to gab mine. I woudl get off my hov-tec at exactly 230m or so from the enemy and start hitting their legs. Do you know what it's like to see a tank crawl towards you from such a huge distance and know that he has no chance against you?
O_O
This is not to say apus don't hae their negatives either, like lack of heal, low mana, etc....
the apu is supposed to do the most damage, thats what kk said, i have an apu and he does good damage but my tank is far better.
i htink if you put a tank pe spy and apu , the best of each respective class in a room, no ppu to buff the apu would either be the first or second one down (after the spy) so yes they do do alot of damage but their resists suck bad
[edit] then again the spy was made to be a tradeskiller....
DB
Shadow Dancer
16-09-03, 21:54
Originally posted by dbarnes
the apu is supposed to do the most damage, thats what kk said, i have an apu and he does good damage but my tank is far better.
i htink if you put a tank pe spy and apu , the best of each respective class in a room, no ppu to buff the apu would either be the first or second one down (after the spy) so yes they do do alot of damage but their resists suck bad
DB
Their resists don't suck, their health is what sux.
And i'm sure the spy would go down fast.
I think if I was in that room I could take the tan and spy down, then die. :p
Originally posted by dbarnes
[edit] then again the spy was made to be a tradeskiller....
DB
uh oh, *casts flame resist on dbarnes*
:D
saying that scifar is like saying the flame 'why you crying bro?' when somone clearly aint.
i was telling what happend. how else am i supposed to come up with a thread?
Originally posted by zAo
...and as i said before the spy wit hthe sh was probably a noob and didnt come close to capping it.... besides that they chould have been smarter to hide before trying to snpie instead of sitting on an open field.... unless they had a cloak ready to go as soon as they saw the apu Do you think he means me ? :D
Ask all the people on Pluto with surplus to requirement holes in their heads, and/or broken legs if I am a skill-less n00b ;)
Anyway - humour aside - you are either foolish, or being deliberately obtuse. Possibly both.
The cloak issue is also a red herring ... it takes 2.5 seconds to put away a gun and start up the stealth ... in that time an APU can drop 5 holy lightnings on me, 3 of which would still hit me after I moved behind cover.
Balanced ?
Yeah ... sure :rolleyes:
how about you cry about it......
and hey gms ... hes flaming me....... he called me obtuse!!!!!! omg ban ban ban ban
[edit] by the way gms you should probably close this before it gets too ugly :(
Whiety Bulger
17-09-03, 00:55
If u nerf apus u have to nerf ppus then u have to nerf PE's then u have to nerf spies and so on the end result will be spies with a a cap of 25 on all stats and tanks that use fire apoc
Do you think he means me ?
Ask all the people on Pluto with surplus to requirement holes in their heads, and/or broken legs if I am a skill-less n00b
Anyway - humour aside - you are either foolish, or being deliberately obtuse. Possibly both.
The cloak issue is also a red herring ... it takes 2.5 seconds to put away a gun and start up the stealth ... in that time an APU can drop 5 holy lightnings on me, 3 of which would still hit me after I moved behind cover.
Balanced ?
Yeah ... sure
amen
as i said before spies are tradeskillers... not a combat class
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 01:25
Originally posted by zAo
as i said before spies are tradeskillers... not a combat class Heh, And I thought Tanks were bad..... :rolleyes:
Originally posted by zAo
as i said before spies are tradeskillers... not a combat class Aaah - so it *was* foolish, not obtuse. :D
ghandisfury
17-09-03, 01:29
Originally posted by zAo
as i said before spies are tradeskillers... not a combat class
:confused: I've seen some pretty kick ass spies. I've seen basically unkillable spies. BEFORE stealth, you are correct....now, spies are uber.
Yet another good unbalanced monk thread arc. (imo) Heres the problem....APU are supposed to be the damage dealers of the game, and they are. But as vet said, their with the correct setup they can take as much if not more punishment then a spy. I watched today as a capped spy hit a capped APU with a capped SH, and it took him 4 hits to kill the apu (with damage boost). It should have taken two max. Then the PPU rezzed the APU, and he cast two fire apocs from 200+ yards and killed the spy (this spy can take 5 bursts of a fire modded CS). Three months ago Arc was the only APU on pluto......now we are flodded with them.
I don't know what the fix is without an EXTREAME nerf on their deffences....but then again, maybe all PSIs are supposed to be in a team. Who knows. All I know is that since the dawn of NC monks have been the favored class.....I see no end in sight without the removal of monks, which in turn is the possible removal of NC. *reaches for another beer*
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 01:37
That doesn't show the unbalance of apus, it shows the unbalance of spies. Their severly underpowered. I don't know which spies you're talking about that were unkillable BEFORE stealth. :eek:
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
That doesn't show the unbalance of apus, it shows the unbalance of spies. Their severly underpowered. I don't know which spies you're talking about that were unkillable BEFORE stealth. :eek: There was a period in front of BEFORE ;)
nonamebrandeggs
17-09-03, 02:17
Originally posted by ghandisfury
:confused: I've seen some pretty kick ass spies. I've seen basically unkillable spies. BEFORE stealth, you are correct....now, spies are uber.
I'll put a Constitution h4x meter under your tree this december ;).
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 02:35
Originally posted by kurai
There was a period in front of BEFORE ;)
oops
Soz.
Manga no Kami
17-09-03, 02:46
First of all, let me explain to you people how PSI abilities work:
I see something I don't like. I want to set it on fire. I point my finger, imagine it bursting into flame, and it bursts into flame. Simple. That is how Fire Apocalypse is supposed to work. Okay? This LoS crap is pointless. Anyone who has played a monk (properly) knows there ARE LoS spells: Lances and Balls for example. If they hit a wall, they do not contact (barring of course clipping errors which any class can exploit, including MoBs). So a PSI spell only needs a target when casting starts, the resulting spell just happens. We are not firing missles or bullets (except in the case of balls and lances) Have you ever seen Holy Lightning cast? A beam comes DOWN from the sky and strike the target with lightning. There is nothing that comes from the monks hand. Also note that it is a RARE weapon.
As for targeting, when you fire a weapon, you AIM it first. but a monk needs only to see it's target long enough to cast their spell. An aiming reticle would defeat this game concept entirely.
Range is determined not only by the particular PSI Module, but also by the points a monk invests into their PSI Use. Any monk who decides that they are going to tradeskill from INT is ASKING to die, and any good monk knows this. Therefore, we sink heavily into PSI Use, which affects Range and Frequency. The trade off? Tradskilling kills our combat effectiveness. So in ORDER to do all this damage, we give up the things that many take for granted, like hacking Warbots, and getting rares. So is it 'cheap' to make the concious decision to make your monk as lethal as possible?
As for our defense, my /24 Martial Artist (MC Specialist) Tank can walk up to a Launcher Cyclops, slash him to ribbons, and barely work up a sweat. My /33 APU can barely handle ONE Cyclops, assuming he gets in the first shot and has good cover. Maybe Spies ARE underpowered, or need some balancing. But I think that there is nothing wrong with the balance of the APU when this fact is considered.
Finally, all you Tanks that are upset because your capped characters keep getting slaughtered by lower level APU's: Here's a tip. Stop using PSI Heals, and instead invest those precious 50 Points into PSI Resist! Believe me, it helps. I had a martial artist tank on Pluto at like level /45 that had all his PSI soaked into resist. Wearing Inquisiton 3 Armor I could take 8 - 10 hits from a Fire Apocalypse before I died (we tested it). Imagine what he could have done capped. The point, Resists work (except when they are bugged). Obviously not all PSI Monks are using Energy damage, but in an OP War, watch your enemy. If one guy falls from Holy Lightning, make sure your armor is Energy resistant. Since nearly all PSI spells do combo damage (PSI/Fire, PSI/Energy, etc), CON resists and PSI resist will go a LONG way. That's why PSI Monks deal so much damage to each other: Our PSI points are too precious to waste on PSI Resist. They do far more for us in APU where they can increase our damage against NON PSI damaged based attacks.
Right now, as I see it, the only balancing that COULD be needed is in the Spy class, but not actually having played one I couldn't begin to say what.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 02:58
Not a bad first post.
However, you must realise, no one really arguing here is a newbie.
Moreso;
PSR is nearly useless....
Manga no Kami
17-09-03, 03:47
Thanks. It's just a topic that's been bugging me since retail.
Being a newbie doesn't really enter into it. However, from scratch is where the best character building starts. And sorry, but I personally have found that resists are really very effective defense. The only flaw being that resists are not always applied properly by the game engine. :/
The fact of the matter is, there are so many OTHER concerns that need to be addressed BEFORE talking about character balance. How about me and a friend bust our tails to take down a Hoverbomber and then find we can't loot it, because "We need to wait a little while longer before we can perform this action." Or the Preacher that killed me while it was hiding INSIDE a wall (now THERE'S a monk abusing the clipping problem O_o). Or the fact that I had a wrecked PSI implant at 0% condition that I implanted for FULL effect. Can I get a decent reward for the Crahn epic, like something I can use? And not to beat a dead horse, but I get more FRE's now than I did when I was in Beta 4.
Maybe monks are a problem, maybe they're not. But I just see so many other issues with this game that really should come first. And given the rate at which I die just hunting MoBs that other classes half my level take with ease, I have a hard time believing that monks are overpowered. That's all. :D
Resists aren't just effective, they're crucial. QD's point is that psi resist doesn't resist any type of damage. You can have 255 psi resist and Holy Lightning will do the same amount of damage to you as if you had 0.
Also your point about HL has one oversight - it still works underground and in caves. And where do Halos come from?
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 04:03
Thanks Scikar ^_^
You'll find my resists are among the best PE resists in the game... :)
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Thanks Scikar ^_^
You'll find my resists are among the best PE resists in the game... :)
Not only do I already know that, you seem to have an urge to remind me every time somebody says the R word. :p
Manga no Kami
17-09-03, 04:05
No oversight- By the sky, I mean the general space above the head of the target. As opposed to a beam of light from my hand. As for halo's, they just form. Realize that this isn't like CounterStrike or Quake. PSI Monks can and do break the Laws of Conservation of Matter. They create fire from nothing, and toxic clouds from thin air. To ask where the haloes/lightning comes from is the same as asking where do Soul Clusters come from.
"You see, when an APU and a PPU meet, and really like each other..." :p
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 04:08
Err...wasn't tellin you Scikar, I know you know, I was telling Kami :p
Exactly. Any weapon which simply creates a damaging effect in the blink of an eye exactly on top of a target, rendering cover useless, can very easily become overpowered.
EDIT: When I said you tell me, I should have said you tell us, us being everyone on the forum. ;)
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 04:13
*S******************s*
I don't really have a prob with LoS though.. :P
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
*S******************s*
I don't really have a prob with LoS though.. :P
Me neither. :p
The idea of beams was implemented to allow the apu to deal instant damage, without waiting an impacting proyectile, and it is one of the main defences of apu's, aswell as one source of its best damage dealing capability.
Manga no Kami
17-09-03, 04:15
Then while we're at it nerf drones, grenades, and soul clusters. :rolleyes: And you STILL have to get their hit box in sight to hit them. Which means your hit box is out there. Any PvP'er will not stand still if a monk has good cover. And using clipping arrors really requires a bit of setup to be really effective. Besides, since when can the materials spit by plants arc a full 90 degrees around a corner while I'm running? Are they made by ACME or something?
(Unrelated note: I've set my E-mail notification to No twice, and I'm still getting them. Anyone else have that problem?)
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 04:23
unsubscribe yourself from the thread too.
As for the "tracking".
This is because Neocron is an RPG, more than an FPS.
The same as Projectiles from guns need locks, those locks work only at the time of firing, if the reticle is fully closed, it dictates the weapon is at the most accurate it can be it is "undodgable" - whether it misses you or not, is decided the nano-second it fires.
The only thing you can do, is have a solid object between you and the projectile before it hits.
Rather than FPS "Spray and pray" or "point and shoot" heh.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 04:27
Btw i'm not just some "NERF APU" monk hater. ;)
I just pointed out a few issues. I don't think apus deal too much damage, or move too fast like some people think.
Originally posted by Thanatos
I was actually thinking about reducing the max range on at least some of the APU modules (HL etc, they have maxranges similar to rifles...). Gonna have to make some tests first though.
So no one gets the urge to "Bitch" at Thanatos when the next patch shows up and nothing was done APU range wise... or anything else for that matter.
I had a discussion with Thanatos and it is being put on hold till I can do further testing, which should start on the Test Server after the next retail patch.
StoneRayne
17-09-03, 05:53
I say...
-Remove Random damage
-Nerf HL/FA/TB range to 120 m at cap.
You can hate me now, or realize it'll be fair and much more interesting.
-Double the barrell range.
Results:
-no more nerf the apu threads
-APUs actually become masters of medium range, and leave the "but SH has 3000 m range" crap to yourself.
-apus have to use some sort of tactic to kill their opponents.
-barrells have some sort of a use, since random damage is removed and you can actually cast it somewhere farther than under your nose
-Spies truly become masters of long range
-Rifles regain the range advantage over APUs
-Tank AoE weapons see more use.
Btw, I'm an APU.
Ps: as a sidenote, increase holy paralysis's cost to around 80 mana/cast :angel: :angel: :angel:
Progenitor
17-09-03, 06:04
Originally posted by StoneRayne
I say...
-Remove Random damage
-Nerf HL/FA/TB range to 120 m at cap.
You can hate me now, or realize it'll be fair and much more interesting.
Okay - hate you now. :) But that is too short!
The halo spells have a range of around 180ish.
The beams should have a range of around 210ish 312 for Fire Beam is nice to have though.
Then the rares at what they currently are, maybe a bit more.
-p
APU was ment to be Short-Mid range.. it's range will be adjust according to that, and will be comparable to the Range of something like a Cursed Soul which is also Mid Range.
Barrels will get their range adjusted so the Caster is free from the AoE area.
KidWithStick
17-09-03, 06:10
Originally posted by Lupus
APU was ment to be Short-Mid range.. it's range will be adjust according to that, and will be comparable to the Range of something like a Cursed Soul which is also Mid Range.
Barrels will get their range adjusted so the Caster is free from the AoE area.
i hope they wont change nothing else...
I'm planning on changing a few things :p
Range is one.. DMG, Mana Cost, RoF are others
StoneRayne
17-09-03, 06:13
Hi proge, been awhile since I last saw you :) (what's your int? :P)
interesting
Yeah, I'm asking to adjust my own class not in my favor, but in my opinion, it will make the game more interesting to play, make APUs use more tactics, and overall balance out the OP wars.
You know basically, to get away from the cookie cutter type.
I'm not saying I'm the "masta balanca", but this would be my perfect world. :)
Edit: Lupus, and random damage? I hated that more anything on fw :P
KidWithStick
17-09-03, 06:16
Originally posted by Lupus
I'm planning on changing a few things :p
Range is one.. DMG, Mana Cost, RoF are others
...please dont tell me your lowering the damage...FFS theres already random damage...if you want to change damage output just take off random damage and call it a day.
change rof...your going to boost it?...i hope not lower it....
and for mana cost i hope your reduicing mana cost on spells...and not increasing it, because i already have to pop a booster after just 4-5 casts...
edit: sorry if i sound like im bein rude or somthing...i just seriosuly do not think APU's are overpowered and need to be nerfed...if anything needs to be nerfed to hell its that damn holy para
lol.. some how I knew you'd come back with a freak out post ;)
No worries tho.. my aim is to bring more Balance to the weapons in game, and try and eliminate the cookie cutterness needed to compete.
How I change what isn't decided yet. I still have a ton of testing to do.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 06:22
Originally posted by Lupus
lol.. some how I knew you'd come back with a freak out post ;)
No worries tho.. my aim is to bring more Balance to the weapons in game, and try and eliminate the cookie cutterness needed to compete.
How I change what isn't decided yet. I still have a ton of testing to do.
Your post scares me. changing damage and rof?
WTF higher rof will bring back the bug, and less rof will really suck.
*sigh*
I see apus headed for nerfville.
Originally posted by StoneRayne
I say...
-Remove Random damage
-Nerf HL/FA/TB range to 120 m at cap.
You can hate me now, or realize it'll be fair and much more interesting.
-Double the barrell range.
120m is a bit too low.
And barrels need a total revamp, even with double range they'll still be somewhat useless 90% of the time.
Originally posted by StoneRayne
apus have to use some sort of tactic to kill their opponents.
Right because that doesnt' happen now. :rolleyes:
Originally posted by StoneRayne
I-barrells have some sort of a use, since random damage is removed and you can actually cast it somewhere farther than under your nose
-Spies truly become masters of long range
-Rifles regain the range advantage over APUs
-Tank AoE weapons see more use.
Barrels will still suck IMO, especially rare ones still. G
I agree
Uhhhh, No comment.
Um how will tank aoe weapons see more use?
Originally posted by StoneRayne
Ps: as a sidenote, increase holy paralysis's cost to around 80 mana/cast :angel: :angel: :angel:
I'd rather have it removed ur upped to 200 mana.
KidWithStick
17-09-03, 06:23
if you need a pig to test on PM me ;)
StoneRayne
17-09-03, 06:46
Arc, why do you like dissecting my posts? You know how annoying it is?
-no, 120 is not low. Actually it makes things kinda interesting, it would, for me at least.
-APUs require tactics? Moving around is NOT a tactic. That's q3 stuff. Trying to get close to your opponent in order to shoot him is a TACTIC. Thinking about if you're out of range requires some sort of thinking, in turn, tactics. Thinking if you should take the fight or to flee also requires a little bit of tactics.
-Well yeah, barrells will still be hard to use, but damn, what's the fun if you can use them easily? It does give an ability to use them better. You know, you can gradually increase their use, instead of completely messing them up. Modifying is easier than creating something from scratch, and in this case, completely revamping barrells is kinda useless, you dont know what kinda effects you'll get. Just try to increase their range and see what kinda results you get.
-Tank AOE weapons will see more action because now, if you get a good team of some APUs, tanks have to run in front and shoot stuff with a CS, they can't stand and shoot MS from the roof, they'll get smoked. Tanks' major role before (yeah I'm ancient ^^) was to be an uhm, tank, to take damage. With the shelter nerf their role kinda diminished.
With a lowered APu range, they can be support fighters, and they wont have to worry about having a PPU with them the whole time.
And they dont worry about being smoked by the APUs in 6 seconds.
And this might bring in the reason for the attacking team to leave a coupla people in the back to try to shoot these tanks. It kinda balances out.
It certainly doesn't overpower tanks, and it gives them a different role rather than be the front line fighter and hope that he wont be the guy people focus fire on. It actually gives them a chance to live :)
Basically, it makes APUs more needed, and brings more use to other classes.
-Well, if you remove parashock, you'll have people running at highazz speeds and this will kinda turn this game into a Quake3, you know, run fast shoot good. And 200 mana cost is a little too much, and you know it yourself :)
Somewhere around a 100 seems fine to me, it definitly doesn't let the PPU spam it, considering they need to DB/heal/SD etc as well.
Shadow Dancer
17-09-03, 07:10
Originally posted by StoneRayne
Arc, why do you like dissecting my posts? You know how annoying it is?
Eh?
What are you talking about? It's annoying when someone responds to each of your points?
:confused:
Um, i'm so sorry. :confused:
Originally posted by StoneRayne
-no, 120 is not low. Actually it makes things kinda interesting, it would, for me at least.
I guess we disagree.
Originally posted by StoneRayne
-APUs require tactics? Moving around is NOT a tactic. That's q3 stuff. Trying to get close to your opponent in order to shoot him is a TACTIC. Thinking about if you're out of range requires some sort of thinking, in turn, tactics. Thinking if you should take the fight or to flee also requires a little bit of tactics.
lol uhh ok. We don't see anywhere near eye to eye on this so I won't comment.
Originally posted by StoneRayne
-Well yeah, barrells will still be hard to use, but damn, what's the fun if you can use them easily? It does give an ability to use them better. You know, you can gradually increase their use, instead of completely messing them up. Modifying is easier than creating something from scratch, and in this case, completely revamping barrells is kinda useless, you dont know what kinda effects you'll get. Just try to increase their range and see what kinda results you get.
What's the fun if you can use them easily? uhh right. The problem is, let's take the rare barrels for example. They have low rof combined with high mana cost. Even double range it's still worthless for PvP except in .0005% situations.
Originally posted by StoneRayne
-Well, if you remove parashock, you'll have people running at highazz speeds and this will kinda turn this game into a Quake3, you know, run fast shoot good. And 200 mana cost is a little too much, and you know it yourself :)
Somewhere around a 100 seems fine to me, it definitly doesn't let the PPU spam it, considering they need to DB/heal/SD etc as well.
I don't see the problem with some classes moving fast.
ANd i don't think 200 is alot for what the spell does.
QuantumDelta
17-09-03, 07:13
100 = heal sanctum.
After doing a little testing on my PPU with the HHS I'm pretty sure it would Seriously make PPUs *Think* about parashocking, or, possibly put them off parashocking totally in certain situations.
Devils Grace
17-09-03, 12:36
the apu is just fine
i do think that range is a question but only a stupid runs away from a apu
only few apu's if any are able to run cast HL what they can do is kneel to walk cast so to win a apu u just need to be fast
any class is almost unstopble wheb teamed with a ppu, so next question.
whatever con setup u use apu's are very week so they get killed easy so the damage is fine.
the only thing that needs a boost is Melee
boost melee weapons
and yes i got a melee tank thats why i want that
Range is one.. DMG, Mana Cost, RoF are others
this rocks :)
Originally posted by Devils Grace
only few apu's if any are able to run cast HL what they can do is kneel to walk cast so to win a apu u just need to be fast
Any APU of rank /50 or above should be able to runcast HL. Mine can runcast it at /48 and still have 300 mana. I think you'll find the vast majority of apus can runcast, rather than 'few if any.'
@Style: What makes you think the damage and RoF won't be increased, and mana cost decreased? Lupus didn't mention a nerf anywhere.
ericdraven
17-09-03, 14:46
Originally posted by Scikar
Lupus didn't mention a nerf anywhere.
It's about time for a new monk nerf. Too much time passed by without any.. it can't go on like this.
Progenitor
17-09-03, 15:39
Originally posted by Lupus
APU was ment to be Short-Mid range.. it's range will be adjust according to that, and will be comparable to the Range of something like a Cursed Soul which is also Mid Range.
Barrels will get their range adjusted so the Caster is free from the AoE area.
Not sure about this, but don't CS's have a much larger range than any of the PSI modules?
If that is the case, then I am all for it!
It would be great to actually have a barrel that didn't hit me at the same time I tried to kill something else!
-p
Theorically yes, but testing ranges properly CS doesnt seem to have much more than 200m, and about 150m effective.
More than that the reticle wont close enought to take advantage of the range, missing about 3/4 shots.
This is with 245% aiming, which is not bad for a CS.
Maybe before nerfing and modify Lupus should work in the real values of each weapon.
Originally posted by Progenitor
Not sure about this, but don't CS's have a much larger range than any of the PSI modules? Yes; but effectively the maximum range of any "normal" weapons is half the displayed range, while it's technically possible to hit something at the highest range your pistol/rifle/cannon has, you'll probably hit at most one of the shots in a burst.
MayhemMike
28-11-03, 04:39
Shadow you are a noob.
Psycho Killa
28-11-03, 04:51
Your the noob that bumped a 2 month old thread.
Spectra260
28-11-03, 04:53
l
o
l
:rolleyes:
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 07:02
What the hell?
Alex The Great
28-11-03, 08:13
Smooth mike.
hahahaha
mike > all
nuff said
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 08:49
How is this smooth or funny? He bumped a thread that I had a link to in my sig. WOW...........O_o
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
How is this smooth or funny? He bumped a thread that I had a link to in my sig. WOW...........O_o
Whats funny is people are actually upset :lol:
Originally posted by wolfwood
CLOSE THIS THREAD PLEASE
Whats it to you? Trying to be the tuff guy? Go home.
Shadow Dancer
28-11-03, 09:17
LOL Gort.
Maybe wolfwood is right.
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