The fundamental problem with a PvP Spy and what to do about it.

[Mantus]

After trying a rifle PE I recreated a spy on Pluto. A rifle spy this time. As I am leveling I stumbled upon a rather annoying fact. My Spy is not all that much better with rifles then my PE was.

Here are the problems: A spy has 20 more DEX levels then a PE. Most players spend those extra points in R-C combat. Though 20 extra points in R-C will not amount to much at all. The other stat advantage of a spy is the 100 INT cap. But what do 40 more INT levels then a PE afford? Well the one obvious combat option here is the higher WEP skill. But 40 extra points in WEP is not all that much. Considering that WEP offers marginal bonuses in everything but aiming and range.

These are all rather laughable perks to a class that’s supposed to excel with rifles. So while spies may be able to use those nice high-tech weapons. They cant cap them. A rifle spy is just a little better at ranged combat then a rifle PE with about a quarter of the defensive capabilities. I would say that something is quite wrong here.

Well, I am tired of writing my argument. So here are the proposed changes:

Rifle Damage: 0.6(60%) RC + 0.3(30%) WEP

Rifle Frequency: 0.4(40%) RC + 0.3(30%) DEX + 0.2(20%) WEP

Very simple here, just a minor tweak to allow the spy to take advantage of his high INT, which is their real strength stat wise. I don’t think that this would screw up PE’s up too much either. What do you guys think?

[VoxteX]

I agree but what about pistol spies? This should be for pistol spies too since most PEs don't invets much in weapon lore, spies with say 120 weapon lore and a pistol should do more damage than a PE with only 50. I myself just started a pistol spy and it's fun, but not really too many advantages over a pistol PE.

[Psyco Groupie]

Well put - and pistol spies can cap their guns with ease - so give rifles and pistol the PA .. wait wots wrong with this picture ?

O_o

[Richard Slade]

Hasn't anyone thought about the other parts besides from holding a gun in your hand yet?

PE :
*Stealth I
*Pain Easer
*Ray of God
*Thunderstorm

Spy :
*Stealth I
*Stealth II
*Stealth III
*Rare stealths
*All rare rifles

See the small difference in this case?

[Mingerroo]

Well put Richard, this is a system of balancing based more on just damage, it also involves tradeskill ability, and special item usability to :)

[Mantus]

Originally posted by Richard Slade
Hasn't anyone thought about the other parts besides from holding a gun in your hand yet?


I totaly agree with you here. But one has to admit that there is still a major flaw in the amount of damage that a spy can deal compared other classes.

Also if you want to make a true comparison between a Spy and a PE perhaps you should put in all the variables. Because you certianly didnt list all of PE's advantages.

[Spencer Leone]

Hey guys! ;)

Ok here i go, i've been a Spy since retail and i've only capped CON and STR (yes i suck) yet i can only just pwn a rank 40 PE......Do i just suck? Lol

Don't take advantage of that question :D

[Tazo]

Originally posted by Mantus
I totaly agree with you here. But one has to admit that there is still a major flaw in the amount of damage that a spy can deal compared other classes.
no there isnt. get a good silent hunter and never complain again. at least thats how it worked for me. and obliterator is THAT good.....

[Psyco Groupie]

If you cna use obliterator without rifle 3 buff your damage on a firstlove will be laughable

[kurai]

I wrote a few responses to this ... and deleted each of them after a minutes consideration.

They all basically boiled down to ...

You state, and the points raised demonstarte this clearly, that you simply don't have the experience in this area.
Trying to speak authoritatively on the subject whilst not in possesion of all the facts (and the skills) doesn't really lend you any credibility.

Capped rifle spies (yes ... who also cap the very highest level rifles) will wonder what the hell you are talking about.
You are basing your proposals on flawed statements and assumptions, so the changes that you would like to see flow from this don't really hold up to much scrutiny.

The only reason I didn't leave this post with one of the earlier drafts (along the lines of "It's not spies & rifles that suck ... it's you" ;)) is because there is one very specific case that might have a grain of truth to it ...

It's basically the Pain Easer.

Private Eyes (and non combat specialised Spies) won't thank me for saying this, but that gun currently punches above it's weight, for it's tech level and the low skill point investment needed to use it effectively.

It's not *massively* overpowerd - it's the combination of all it's attributes when multiplied together that put it above the curve of the rest of the rifle range.

Rate of Fire is a fraction too high.
Range is a fraction too high.
Damage per shot is a fraction too high.
(Plus it gets a Liberator style burst bonus)

Combine this with the ease with which you can achieve very high aim/dmg/rof and it makes it a no-brainer choice.

Your proposal is yet another example of trying to compensate for a problem, rather than fix it. KK already do quite enough of that already, thank you. :D

Push the Pain Easer back into the main curve of weapon effectiveness versus tech level (and *perhaps* raise some of the higher level weapons from where they currently are - *under* the curve) and I think you'll find most of your issues have gone away.

(You might want to look at Lupus' work in this area)

[Judge]

Get the fuck away from my Pain Easer dude :p

[athon]

I'm a Spy and I say get the feck away from the Pain Easer. It's piercing and it's good against monks. 'Nuff said!

Athon Solo