View Full Version : Spy PA
The Spy PA situation is quite complicated. There is obviously no way to cater to everyone. At least one profession will be left out, no matter how we bend the stats.
I have been discussion the options with the devs. The final decision is up to me, and I want to ask you, dear runners, what you would like to see. I will not guarantee you that I will stick to the result of the poll, as I included ALL options. Some of those have already been ruled out, but like I said, I want to catch your mood. What versions of the Spy PA would you prefer?
nonamebrandeggs
10-09-03, 02:24
TC and RCL all the way! That would so totally rock!
well i was tempted to vote KK sux. yet i'll see what the others have voted before i make up my mind. at the end of the day someone will get hurt by KKs idea to only catter for only 2 of the 3 spy combat styles.
The PA they got now is dam good slap some Rifle and pistol to that maybe some pierce and force and leave it at that.
nonamebrandeggs
10-09-03, 02:27
IMO Droners don't need PA, cuz they just stand far away anyways ^_^. So 1 PC/TC and 1 RC/TC set would "cater" just fine I think. Assuming you can make 2 sets of PA for spies?
There will be only one fightskill bonus per PA. Those combinations above are the boni the 2 PAs would give.
For Example:
WPL and WPW
means
One PA will give WPL bonus, the other will give WPW bonus
Droners need the RCL more then a rifle or pistol spy needs their respective combat bonus.
ZoneVortex
10-09-03, 02:32
P-C and R-C
Wtf is "RCL"?
nonamebrandeggs
10-09-03, 02:32
Aaah! I see! Ok then I'll have to say PC/RC ofcourse!
FirestarXL
10-09-03, 02:33
Oucm so you really can't put PC and RC combat on one suit, and RCL on another? That's pretty unfortunate...
From a purely selfish point of view, I would always include the option with RC in it, but I wil think before I vote.
Here's a possible solution:
Why not go for PC and RC on the PA suits, but then make a seperate armour for droners. Maybe something like a helmet version, which gives them the RCL boost, allowing them to use the main benifits of the spy PA, but giving them the sub benefits from this helmet? Seing as most droner imps nerf RC and PC, this would not unbalance them.
Thoughts?
Syntax-Error
10-09-03, 02:33
Recyle....
Progenitor
10-09-03, 02:33
I have to admit Callash - you are the peoples man. Even included the obligatory dead animal option!
I would have to agree with nonamebrandeggs droners don't exactly need armor.
They do need some bonuses though. . .
Perhaps some specialized (non-rare) droner chips along the lines of the riggers interface that they can use to compensat for the lack of PA.
Something that has the same 2x(to make up for lack of PA, but not using up additional brain slots)benfits/(1x)side effects but in chip format.
That would solve the problem.
That way the rifle and pistol users get armor for which they need in battle, and the droners get some loving in additional bonuses.
-p
ZoneVortex
10-09-03, 02:34
Ummmmmm why can't there be 3 PAs?
A droner one with RCL and WPW
Pistol one with PC and TC
Rifle one with RC and TC
Seems totally logical to me.
Syntax-Error
10-09-03, 02:35
Cos the other class's wud bitch
Whitestuff
10-09-03, 02:37
P-C and R-C is what I would like because that is what the Tank PA does, it enhances the H-C mainskill. Iwould also like a slight reduction in the x-ray resist so you can tack on some force and pierce resist. Glad to see the armor is being thought about btw.
OT : Are tanks gonna get melee armor? I may be wrong, but I thought that their armor only affected H-C. Sorry never had a tank. :p
ZoneVortex
10-09-03, 02:38
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Cos the other class's wud bitch
I am the other classes and I'm totally fine with it....
I don't see why everyone else can't be.
Those are the three specializations of spy.
If there were 3 specializations for tanks i'd be all for it, but there aren't. There's only melee and HC, which there are PAs for both.
There's also 2 for monks. APU and PPU.
PsycheBlade
10-09-03, 02:43
Would there be a possible way to get the PA's to augment skill rather than have a set amount? Perhaps have 2 different resist setups for the suits and they increase combat skills based on whats the highest on that particular spy?
I'm still foggy as to why a powerarmor can't add both P-C and R-C, is it because all the other power armors only add one type of combat/main skill?
RC - RCL.
As had been said, Pistols are not the main domain of the spy, whereas rifles and drones are.
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 02:44
Originally posted by Callash
The Spy PA situation is quite complicated. There is obviously no way to cater to everyone. At least one profession will be left out, no matter how we bend the stats.
I have been discussion the options with the devs. The final decision is up to me, and I want to ask you, dear runners, what you would like to see. I will not guarantee you that I will stick to the result of the poll, as I included ALL options. Some of those have already been ruled out, but like I said, I want to catch your mood. What versions of the Spy PA would you prefer?
ROFL
I like your last option. I vote TC and RCL, only kuz u said "slightly bigger TC bonus" which can compensate for someone's TC not being above 100 base.
Callash>u
What about those spies which don't use Tech Combat?
Which are most of those that are the repair mules.
Callash, there is any chance that droners get a drone helmet instead PA? with same bonuses... I think it would fit the droner much more than an.. armor uhg o_O
This way p-c/r-c spies would get the PA, and droners would get bonus love aswell.
Originally posted by Marx
What about those spies which don't use Tech Combat?
Which are most of those that are the repair mules.
they can suck it.
"what about those spies which skilled H-C?"
some ppl just dont get it...
nonamebrandeggs
10-09-03, 02:52
Will we get to decide on major resists or are those already defined?
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 02:54
Callash a question for you. Just curious, but why can't KK release 3 pas for spies?
Their the only class with 3 specializations IMO.
KidWithStick
10-09-03, 02:55
well im gonna have to say since most spy's use rifles, if not that then pistols...P-C and R-C
of cource weaponlore should be trone in there as well...since weaponlore will help BOTH of those professions.
Originally posted by Tazo
they can suck it.
"what about those spies which skilled H-C?"
some ppl just dont get it...
Um, most high tech spies I know won't get any sort of bonus from added TC seeing as they already have as much TC as they need... since it isn't a damage modifier while, RC and such are damage modifiers...
How would TC help?
Would people LoM TC away?
Where would they put that dex?
Rifle combat, pistol combat, etc?
:rolleyes:
Originally posted by Marx
How would TC help?
Would people LoM TC away?
Where would they put that dex?
Rifle combat, pistol combat, etc?
:rolleyes:
exactly. it would free up valuable dex point you could put in your primary fighting skill, let it be pc or rc
what about a spy PA that does trade skills, or are they only having the tech gloves for that?
Then wouldn't it make more sense to wear the armor to have your combat skill increase instead of having to wear it just to use a weapon?
Not to mention methinks the amount of dex freed up by TC wouldn't be able to provide as much combat skill as the armor would provide if made as such.
LOL PA is a combat suit not a set of mechanics overalls.
Originally posted by Marx
Not to mention methinks the amount of dex freed up by TC wouldn't be able to provide as much combat skill as the armor would provide if made as such.
that would be why he said "bigger tc bonus", no?
well a bigger T-C bonus for my non-tech rifle spy on saturn. would have to mean say 95. though on pluto my spy is a high-tech rifle user.
even then mate, until numbers are thrown up we won't be able to tell.
Originally posted by Callash
There is obviously no way to cater to everyone. At least one profession will be left out, no matter how we bend the stats.
read this. then read it again. and again. and again. and again. and again until you finally get it.
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 03:07
Why would a spy not have TC? just curious. No stealth, no higher level rifles. :confused:
Btw, if KK wants to follow a set number, they can have 3 pas for each class.
TANKS
PC
HC
MC
PES
PC
MC
RC
SPIES
RC
DC
PC
PSIS
APU
PPU
HYBRID
I dont know. I'm not a Spy, it would be wrong for me to vote:(
I Abstain.
Profession.
Non-tech weapons aren't a profession.
Pistols, Rifles, Drones.
That = profession.
Why would a spy not have TC? just curious. No stealth, no higher level rifles
Because I'm happy with 70/XX with my fully capped PE.
and also I'm working up my repair skill... eventually I'll have to LoM some rifle back into Repair, but that'll be for after I cap dex.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Btw, if KK wants to follow a set number, they can have 3 pas for each class.
...
[stats]
...
what about droning PEs? or heavy'ing spies? as long as we cater to everyone, we might as well just add powerarmors for all combatskills for all classes, eh?
Originally posted by enablerbr
LOL PA is a combat suit not a set of mechanics overalls.
ha lol can you imagine people in plaza wearing overalls holding spanners. that would rock
well not having T-C means i can cap dmg without any probs on the non-tech rifles. also i've gone off rares so as theres only 1 non-tech rifle rare. i'm not going to be missing out on much. T-C points just for the use of the stealth tool and nothing else. is a waste in my eyes. if T-C had added some form of boost to any of the stats it would add worth but as is sh!t.
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 03:16
Originally posted by Tazo
what about droning PEs? or heavy'ing spies? as long as we cater to everyone, we might as well just add powerarmors for all combatskills for all classes, eh?
Well based on stats and most viable THIRD path is why I made those choices, I wasn't trying to cater to everyone. I don't know why KK is so obsessed with giving spies 2 pas, when 3 pas is fine.
PsycheBlade
10-09-03, 03:19
How about one of the PowerArmors add 6 PSI, 6 STR and then Adds some PPU and Agility? :D
I don't think any spies would argue with getting something similar to that in an armor with a dex requirement :D
ANYWAY, Callash if you could comment (You probably aren't refreshing the page often like some of us are) would there be a way to have the armor augment the main combat skill rather than have set values?
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 03:20
Originally posted by enablerbr
well not having T-C means i can cap dmg without any probs on the non-tech rifles. also i've gone off rares so as theres only 1 non-tech rifle rare. i'm not going to be missing out on much.
Excellent point.
oh what the hell. i cast my vote on "KK sux period (dead animals)". i've never forgiven KK for the 100 DEX minus my STR. i never wanted my DEX changed or my STR taken.:p
These PA's are they different from the Assasination Suit reported eons ago?
The SF chip caters for both P-C and R-C why can't the PA??
because tank PA doesn't cater to melee.
FirestarXL
10-09-03, 03:31
Originally posted by Marx
because tank PA doesn't cater to melee.
It will, all PA's are being redone.
a melee PA is being made.
2 types of PA for all classes.
I think this deserves to be above 'Mayhem Mike is blahblahblah'. I don't know... guess my priorities are different from others. (friendly reminder to mods to lock that thread)...
Also as many have said, we appreciate your efforts Callash. Asking us our opinion is the right approach. Excellent work as always.
Doesn't matter to me which bonuses are finally applied to the PA, someone's getting screwed either way for an reason no one wants to admit.
It's just icing on the cake that in the future when whomever loses out on this comes to complain that a Reakktor employee can turn around and say, "it's what the community wanted."
Instead of people in this thread argueing about which 2 options are better for the community, we should be pointing at Reakktor and asking WHY CAN'T THIS BE DONE?
I'm sorry but I stopped accepting "because" for an answer after the age of 4.
FirestarXL
10-09-03, 03:58
I prefer to put my efforts into finding an "option D - none of the above" that works within the given limitations.
I'm hoping callash reads my first post in the thread and can give some feedback on that.
Originally posted by Ehyuko
Doesn't matter to me which bonuses are finally applied to the PA, someone's getting screwed either way for an reason no one wants to admit.
It's just icing on the cake that in the future when whomever loses out on this comes to complain that a Reakktor employee can turn around and say, "it's what the community wanted."
Instead of people in this thread argueing about which 2 options are better for the community, we should be pointing at Reakktor and asking WHY CAN'T THIS BE DONE?
I'm sorry but I stopped accepting "because" for an answer after the age of 4.
A Power Armor is supposed to represent and boost that class' main skill. "But d3ik, we can't have a Spy PA that enhances your dying skill"... hahaha....
Anyway, you shouldn't be able to go window shopping for a PA that does exactly what you want, as you would lose what the PA is meant to represent. What if tanks had a PA for H-C, a PA for Melee, a PA for Strength... hell give 'em a PA for hacking, they need that for WB's, right?
You see what I mean? One PA for each class. There can be other specialty suits but only one official 'Spy Power Armor'.
Anyway, you shouldn't be able to go window shopping for a PA that does exactly what you want, as you would lose what the PA is meant to represent. What if tanks had a PA for H-C, a PA for Melee, a PA for Strength... hell give 'em a PA for hacking, they need that for WB's, right?
You see what I mean? One PA for each class. There can be other specialty suits but only one official 'Spy Power Armor'.
There will be a PA for every major combat skill for every class but spies, this is NOT unreasonable to ask for the same thing. Yes there is already a MC armour planned for tanks, both their armours already give strenght does a request for armour that boosts RC or PC or RCL so much to ask for? Heck there already is an APU and PPU PA, doesn't that break the 'one official PA' rule right there?
The worst part about this is that the question isn't which 2 bonuses shall we give for the PA until we can find another solution for whomever is left out, it's which 2 bonuses will the spy PA give. By asking the community something like that it seems they've already decided they have spent enough time trying to come up with a solution so they have just given up and are just trying to figure out whom to say "screw you" to.
Assuming this is the SPY PA, as in no PE can wear it, then I would go for the R-C and RCL version. P-C isn't used by any spy that I know of.
Giving an R-C boost means that you can lom a couple of points from it for more T-C if you want. Spies have over 100 R-C which means 5 skillpoints released for every lom -> more T-C. (Well if you aren't a tradeskiller perhaps, but then you won't be needing the PA anyway).
If you had more T-C instead, lomming that would not give you as much R-C as in the reverse case above.
This way, droners gets the loving as well.
FirestarXL
10-09-03, 04:34
Actually, the "rule" is two PA's for every class, no more no less.
Although I agree that spies do really need three ideally.
I also am somewhat bemused as to the possible reasons why there won't be 3 Spy PA's.
There isn't another class that has 3 types of high level combat specialisation, so the "Because other classes would object that they only have two..." argument doesn't really justify anything much.
I'll assume for now that it's an arbitrary policy decision as I would imagine we'd have been told before now if there was a real technical issue, such as limited table space or similar.
Anyway - reasons for the policy aside ... if there are two be only two suit bonus types then I am torn on which way to go.
If we purely went by numbers of runners then we'd see the vast majority with rifles, followed by pistols
(this proportion gets somewhat muddied by the addition of tradeskillers, who only really have pistols as a viable levelling route - they aren't, strictly speaking, combat specialists),
with droners coming in a poor third.
This would mean RC & PC variants would help biggest number of runners.
If, as has been hinted at, pistols are to be pushed more towards the PE class then this would change to RC & RCL helping most.
The TC & RCL option has the benefit of helping every combat specialist
(dont allow yourself to be side tracked by the "what about non tech users" people - they can't realistically call themselves combat specialised) - however ...
the TC boost would have to be considerable to offset the train point cost.
In my case I would need +62 TC, to give the same level of boost as +16 RC [*calc shown at end of post]
It would also mean a fair bit of lomming to put the freed up points into the main combat skill.
I think we can dismiss the PC/RCL option and the WPL/WPW option as they help the least number of people possible, which I'm sure is not the intent ;)
So - this leaves me with a tough call between two almost equally valid choices ... PC/RC & TC/RCL.
TC/RCL would probably be the most equitable for now ... with two provisos ...
- the TC bonus must be scaled high enough to give a proper equivalent of a main stat bonus.
- that pistol lineup isn't changed to push it towards PEs.
If I was of a harsher frame of mind I would say get rid of all the RCL variants - two reasons for this.
- Droners really have no need of extra armour whatsoever...simply scale up the bonuses on the implant range to compensate. (This sounds better & better the more I think about it. It makes several knotty problems go away in one fell swoop)
- Droners will always be a very minor proportion of the spy community (putting aside the many and various very real bugs/inconsistencies/unintended difficulties they are forced to live with). It's simply not a style of play that appeals to the broad majority of players, and I can't see that changing much even if every drone bug was magically fixed overnight.
Sorry droners ... I *did* say it was harsh ;)
Hrmmm ... in conclusion, then ...
I eventually voted RC/PC. :D
(TC/RCL was a close second)
Sorry, people, for the long and involved post, I just think it's a decision that needs careful consideration, and even my final vote leaves me with some reservations as explained in the main body of the text and consideration of how KK likes to go about doing things.
* TC/RC offset calculation...
Using my stats as an example (I would most likely use the Level 3 suit, and I will assume a +16 RC boost as stated in http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73240 to be the desired level of bonus...)
Now - we (should) all know that:-
00-50 skill = 1 train point each
50-75 skill = 2 train points each
75-100 skill = 3 train points each
100 + skill = 5 points each
I currently spec 141 RC, 68 TC
(excluding implants and Rifle 1 boost...these are actual, spent, non-bonus points).
Therefore +16 RC equates to 80 train points boost.
So - now we need to work that backwards to give equivalent TC.
68 specced TC skill = [50*1]+[18*2]=86 train points
86 spent train points - 80 bonus train points = 6 specced TC skill.
68 specced TC - 6 specced TC = 62 TC needed from suit.
You can see that this +62 equivalent bonus is not casually intuitive, and might at first glance look excessive if you dont crunch the numbers carefully. :eek:
The word "slightly" as used in the poll option doesn't even come remotely close to being sufficient.
I can't see KK ever trying to go to the effort of justifying this to the uninformed, so I voted RC/PC as a result.
Just make 3 PA's, afterall it is Spies we're talking about here....
PC PA
RC PA
RCL PA
Everyone goes home happy, KK should make an acception it this case.....
Think of the Spies.....:o
Personally, I'd just say give Spies 3 PAs, but since I'm almost completely certain that's not going to happen regardless of what the community says, I have to say: go with P-C/R-C. But you have to boost some stats on droner's imps to soften the blow of no PA. But then again, why the hell do droners need PA to begin with? If someone finds them, they're dead anyway.
--Stryfe
Originally posted by StryfeX
But then again, why the hell do droners need PA to begin with? If someone finds them, they're dead anyway.
--Stryfe
We need teh RCL(so we can cap dmg on our weapons) and the dex boost(use punisher without drugs/gimped imps setup etc.). It is a POWER armour after all. :)
Ideally i would like one for all 3(pc/rc/rcl) since there is weapons that are spy only for all 3. But it doesnt look like its gonna happen. :( For whatever the reason....
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 06:22
OF any class in neocron, droenrs have the hardest time capping their rares. So I think they deserve POWER armor. Or since it's droning, make a power GLOVE for them and 2 pas for the other spies.
TC and RCL, but the way I had mentioned in the mail I had sent Callash - scale the TC value such that it gives the same level of trainpoints as the RC bonus did when your RC was over 100, yet keeping in mind that TC doesn't go over 100 for most so convert the 5 trainpoints per RC level into an equivalent TC skillpoint increase (3 RC levels on the old armor stats would be equivalent to 5 or 7 TC levels on the new armor, essentially). This allows both PC and RC users to put those equivalent trainpoints into RC or PC as they see fit.
The only ones left out of bonuses by doing it this way would be the non-TC spies who don't hack, of which I certantly hope there are none (RCL influences hack).
Peeping Tom
10-09-03, 06:41
thx for let us discuss spy pa once again
Voted Pc-Rc
nice post kurai
K4F
there is no way to ever ever please everyone, it is not possible, I know im going to get flamed but i have been a spy since beta and started off with pistols, the only spy that shuld ever use pistols is a droner! as a backup weapon for if things get outa control unexpectedly, I vote for RCL and RC bounis for spys, yes the Neg int does bug me but nothing a few imps cant easily overcome. i think a fare trade on that is the resists should be raised just a bit so it doesnt look like a glorified battle vest 2
imo giving tech is just a bad idea for a main bounus..what about the spys that dont use tech rifles for one reason or another
however i do like shadow dancers idea of a drone power glove and give the RC and PC to the spies, it be like the machina glove for droners.
Can somone explain this to me? I have no idea what he is asking.
Is there some limit on the number of mods one item can have? Or is there some limit to the number of armors than can be introduced? I don't get it?
Can someone just explain to be in super simple terms what he is asking?
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 07:19
Originally posted by RayBob
Can somone explain this to me? I have no idea what he is asking.
Is there some limit on the number of mods one item can have? Or is there some limit to the number of armors than can be introduced? I don't get it?
Can someone just explain to be in super simple terms what he is asking?
For a reason that hasn't be explained yet, KK wants spies to have only 2 types of PA. ORIGINALLY it was a droner PA and a rifle PA. Then people complained pistol spies weren't getting a pa with combat bonus. So then the thought of RC and PC pa came about, and droners complained. Then some people(me included :p) suggested TC PA for pc and rc spies, and Droner pa. But then some spies complained that NON tc using spies would get shafted.
So that's what the poll is about.
Thanks Shadow, now I get it. :D
Personally, I think drones should require T-C. My fellow droners will hate me for saying this but it seems to make sense. Rifle and pistol spies have to spec 3 stats (RC/PC, WEP, and T-C) while droners only need to spec 2 stats (WLP and RCL). Then the armor could give a generous amount of T-C and it would work for all spies.
Ray
Shadow Dancer
10-09-03, 07:32
Originally posted by RayBob
Thanks Shadow, now I get it. :D
Personally, I think drones should require T-C. My fellow droners will hate me for saying this but it seems to make sense. Rifle and pistol spies have to spec 3 stats (RC/PC, WEP, and T-C) while droners only need to spec 2 stats (WLP and RCL). Then the armor could give a generous amount of T-C and it would work for all spies.
Ray
Well it's not really fair to say "other classes have to do this, so we should too" or vice versa. See they have have to spec for 3 stats, but they can get slots on their weapons and the ability to cap their rares which I HEARD droners can't do. ;)
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Well it's not really fair to say "other classes have to do this, so we should too"
Well actually, I think that is exactly how you decide if something is fair.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
See they have have to spec for 3 stats, but they can get slots on their weapons and the ability to cap their rares which I HEARD droners can't do. ;)
This is another problem entirely with droning that could be solved in a number of ways, all of which have been discussed to death.
Wheres the construction/research one :)
Now all spys are combat spys. And thus they should have a trader armor :)
Originally posted by Mankind
Wheres the construction/research one :)
Now all spys are combat spys. And thus they should have a trader armor :)
Tradeskillers are getting some great new gloves.
Tradeskill boosters are in the form of gloves on the testserver already, I heard.
i voted t-c / rcl so all will be covered, p-c and r-c will both get a bonus, but also drones wouldnt be left behind..
and like a said a 100 times before i really think that drones need a boost since they have the worst rares (in stats). ive never managed to cap the pn O_o
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 09:19
I still dont get the big deal about RC-PC-RCL but...
since i FINALLY have clean cut choices..me says RC/PC
ericdraven
10-09-03, 10:29
I voted R-C/RCL, because - are there any real (and pure combat) pistol spies around? o_O
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 10:34
Originally posted by ericdraven
I voted R-C/RCL, because - are there any real (and pure combat) pistol spies around? o_O
what planet are you on???:wtf:
R-C RCL by far. Pistol spies will never be truly viable, giving them a P-C boost on the PA would just postpone their death by a little.
AN IDEA!
Give it a massive agility boost, like at least +30 for the PA1 and increasing steps of +10 so the PA4 gives +60 agility. Spies are supposed to be light and fast, agile guys, but currently their speed sucks. Droners don't need so much agility but rifle spies do and pistol spies certainly do. So there's your solution, a massive agility boost. And people could still LoM out the extra agility to R-C.
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 10:37
I didnt see that on the poll options? *gets classes*
Well - one HAS TO BE RCL. Droners desperately need a boost.
For the other - T-C is less likely to cause whining but R-C is probably more useful to more people.
I voted T-C and RCL but would like to see a really large T-C bonus in there.
Hi,
I think perhaps we need 3 PAs (or 2 - one with RC/PC and one for droners). But in the apparent absense of that possibility I'll go the T-C route I think.
Also, it is my guess that the majority of non-tech spies are trade skillers, not combat chars, and the PA's are designed for combat, not levelling.
I also agree with scikar about the speed thing. The supposedly fat and heavy tanks are faster than us light and supposedly agile spies.
Athon Solo
ericdraven
10-09-03, 10:40
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
what planet are you on???:wtf:
Uranus, why? :p
Ok, after reading this entiore thread and the previous one, it got me thinking. DO Droners REALLY need a PA? After many calculations I finally came up with my answer. No, in my oppinion (and im entitled to it :p) they dont need a PA, and heres why...
Lets take what I would call, a typical droners implant setup. Now this is based on tests on the testserver, it wont match everybodies, and its designed to give the max RCL boost possible (as willpower is an INT skill and the SpyPA would have had RCL not WPW originally).
AREA MC5 Riggers Dream +12 RCL +6 DEX
Special Rigger Interface +10 RCL +5 DEX
BioTech Mindcontrol CPU 3 +15 RCL +5 DEX
BioTech Mindcontrol CPU 2 +10 RCL +3 DEX
Drone Combat Eye 3 +8 RCL
---------------------------------------------
TOTAL +55 RCL +19 DEX
So, with 4 brain imps and an eye, droners get +55 RCL and +19 DEX. thats enough for any capped droner to pop in a dex backbone (or Reflex Booster) and be able to use ALL drones. Yes, I know this setup has 2 rare chips, but like I said, this is an IDEAL situation.
So, now lets do it again for Riflers:
AREA MC5 Synaptic Accelerator +5 R-C +6 DEX
BioTech Special Force's CPU +5 R-C +5 DEX
BioTech Exp. Balisticweapon 3 +5 R-C +3 DEX
BioTech Distance-Weapon-CPU 3 +8 R-c +0 DEX
BioTech Rifle-Combateye 3 +15 R-C
---------------------------------------------
TOTAL +38 R-C +14 DEX
Now, this setup was designed to give MAX R-C, in return we have gimped DEX. Now popping a exp. reflex booster 4 in would give us +19 DEX, better, but not ideal. This setup also mirrors for Pistol users.
So, with no PA, Rifle / Pistol users are already behind Droners with the boost they can get from implants. 55 RCL as opposed to 38 P-c/R-C. The situation gets worse as Droners only need to really put points into RCL in DEX, a single subskill where as most Pistol/Rifle users use both P-C/R-C AND T-C.
I originally voted for the T-C boost option, but after thinking this through, I believe that was wrong. In my oppinion, the SpyPA should cater to P-C/R-C users, not to droners. They already get more boosts from implants without gimping their DEX. For arguments sake, lets take a quick look at a setup that matches our DEX to that of a Droner.
AREA MC5 Synaptic Accelerator +5 R-C +6 DEX
BioTech Special Force's CPU +5 R-C +5 DEX
BioTech Exp. Balisticweapon 3 +5 R-C +3 DEX
BioTech Motoric 3 +5 DEX
BioTech Rifle-Combateye 3 +15 R-C
---------------------------------------------
TOTAL +30 R-C +19 DEX
Ouch, P-C/R-C now have the same DEX from implants yet we now have nearly HALF the main skill bonus of that a droner has.
Any comments / oppinions on what ive said here would be appriciated, especially yours Callash.
Many thanks for your time, Javan
You forget, that
1) Drones are not artifact quality, unlike rifles, which means they need much higher skill to cap.
2) The rare drones are TL116 and 122. The highest rare rifle is 115.
NeoLojik, yeah, but you're assuming everyone has MC5 chips, plus Scikars points.
Athon Solo
Not all your drones are built to 80/80 quality. I cant count the ammount of 'junk' rare drone parts Ive given away because no-one will buy them. Theres pleanty of Particle Nemesis / Punusher rare parts that are either thrown away / sold. Just because its easier to BP & CST people dont care about collecting the parts. My droner on the testserver goes hunting everywhere, hes still using his second Particle Nemesis.
@Athon Solo
I know, but I assumed in BOTH cases, making it a fair comparison.
Originally posted by Scikar
Pistol spies will never be truly viable That is, quite simply, incorrect.
I'm not going to sugar coat it for you, or give you vague equivocations.
It's just *wrong*.
Do some homework please, people.
N.B. : This reply isn't aimed specifically at you Scikar - you are just the most recent handily availble quote regurgitating this baseless statement.
Originally posted by kurai
That is, quite simply, incorrect.
I'm not going to sugar coat it for you, or give you vague equivocations.
It's just *wrong*.
Do some homework please.
Even with drugs to shelter, rad suit, perfect con setup etc. Pistol spies don't deal enough damage to justify their lack of defence. They can blast away all they like with a RoLH but ultimately the tank's HP drops slower than the spy's, so the spy loses.
@Neo - Actually they need several boosts and an ass-load of bug-fixes.
Testserver <> Real servers. No-one is going to hunt with an artifact PN.
@Callash - Any chance of an ETA for whatever is decided?
Ok, stupid and obvious question.
If spies were NOT supposed to use pistols, WHY are there pistols only a spy can use? Do you see any Private Eyes with 115 DEX?
*looks around*
I dont.
Originally posted by NeoLojik
Ok, stupid and obvious question.
If spies were NOT supposed to use pistols, WHY are there pistols only a spy can use? Do you see any Private Eyes with 115 DEX?
*looks around*
I dont.
Which is exactly why pistols are supposed to become the domain of PEs, but nobody's released any more info. Besides PEs can drug to those pistols, and they only need the dex for RoLH since Exe isn't worth anything.
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 11:19
Originally posted by Scikar
Even with drugs to shelter, rad suit, perfect con setup etc. Pistol spies don't deal enough damage to justify their lack of defence. They can blast away all they like with a RoLH but ultimately the tank's HP drops slower than the spy's, so the spy loses.
Except for the fact that a well setup spy has a capped or near capped runspeed combined with the light weight pistols are hard as hell to hit..now lets throw in stealth 1 or 2..for that short recovery period ... btw RoLH and even a capped BS _EATS_ tanks..
I've seen plenty of viable spy PC setups....in all honesty no spy setup is going to straight up compare to a tanks high defense and offense...but then again neither does a PE's yet many people will fervently argue that a PE can go toe to toe with tanks (and they can i assure you)
So saying that PC spies are not viable is complete and utter BULL SHIT...ty
also..refer to NeoLojiks post..his points are some of my main arguements against RCL...you can say *well that uses rare imps blablabla* ok remove the rare imps..droner has several substitutes...while the rifle/pistol user becomes even more gimped. IMO the rare drone imps were thrown in on a whim..absolutly no thought went into them, it seems they were thrown in quickly to help calm the droners whining.
Originally posted by NeoLojik
Ok, stupid and obvious question.
If spies were NOT supposed to use pistols, WHY are there pistols only a spy can use? Do you see any Private Eyes with 115 DEX?
*looks around*
I dont.
Spies used to have less DEX than PEs and more STR/CON than they have now. Pistols are still borked from those changes 8+ months ago.
Originally posted by NeoLojik
. . .
Any comments / oppinions on what ive said here would be appriciated, especially yours Callash. Nicely reasoned post, Javan.
This pretty much picks up where I left off with the thoughts about droning bonuses in my post.
I think, perhaps, taking both posts into account we are approaching the droner's problem from the wrong end.
These are stopgap solutions that address the symptom not the cause of the situation.
A much saner method would be to properly balance the drones themselves, so that they have an appropriate level of combat effectiveness for a given skill investment.
We all seem to have been sucked in by the assumption that the broken drone effectiveness scale should be fixed by giving a bonus from an armour suit.
This is wrong on several levels...
- primarily ... it's not the bonuses that need to be fixed most ... it's the drones.
- secondly ... If, for whatever misguided reasons, it is decided to fix the symptom and not the problem, why make the "fix" with armour - something that is of supreme irrelevance to a droner.
- thirdly ... The droner implants *already* give disproportionate bonuses, compared to other weapon classes' implants ... this already shows us something is terribly wrong with drones.
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
Except for the fact that a well setup spy has a capped or near capped runspeed combined with the light weight pistols are hard as hell to hit..now lets throw in stealth 1 or 2..for that short recovery period ... btw RoLH and even a capped BS _EATS_ tanks..
I've seen plenty of viable spy PC setups....in all honesty no spy setup is going to straight up compare to a tanks high defense and offense...but then again neither does a PE's yet many people will fervently argue that a PE can go toe to toe with tanks (and they can i assure you)
So saying that PC spies are not viable is complete and utter BULL SHIT...ty
also..refer to NeoLojiks post..his points are some of my main arguements against RCL...you can say *well that uses rare imps blablabla* ok remove the rare imps..droner has several substitutes...while the rifle/pistol user becomes even more gimped. IMO the rare drone imps were thrown in on a whim..absolutly no thought went into them, it seems they were thrown in quickly to help calm the droners whining.
Wrong again. PEs have better defence than a tank. They can't deal so much damage but they take less so the fight is even. CS however eats spies for breakfast no matter what your setup is. And the best tanks can hold a lock on even people with capped runspeed. Rifles can do everything pistols can and more. The only reason PEs go for pistols and not rifles is because Lib > Pain Easer. The combination of SH, FL, and RoG is just as effective close up as a RoLH but with the added advantage of the ability to snipe. Yet you would rather gimp yourself and those rifle users, or completely ignore droners, the least loved class in the entire damn game, just to play your pistol spy?
So, with no PA, Rifle / Pistol users are already behind Droners with the boost they can get from implants. 55 RCL as opposed to 38 P-c/R-C. The situation gets worse as Droners only need to really put points into RCL in DEX, a single subskill where as most Pistol/Rifle users use both P-C/R-C AND T-C.
but you also forget that pc/rc uses needs WL, which 100 wl = 20% dmg so id say its about equal still :rolleyes:
___T-X____
10-09-03, 11:37
I voted the T-C and RCL one. I would like to see droners become a more attractive alternative as droning is mainly only used by spies and the pa is design for spies.
Please dont release a cop-out R-c /p-c one. A PA with a T-C and RCL setup may would make people rework their setup - thus making the PA interesting instead of another boring armour.
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 11:43
Originally posted by Clyde
but you also forget that pc/rc uses needs WL, which 100 wl = 20% dmg so id say its about equal still :rolleyes:
Drone Damage: 0.7(70%) RCL + 0.3(30%) WPW
Rifle Damage: 0.7(70%) RC + 0.2(20%) WPL
So..what exactly balances out considering WPW has more reletive effect.
Do _all_ of your homework.
What I want to know is why do all the drone stats modifiers = 100%....yet the others equal 80 or 90 only.
Originally posted by Clyde
but you also forget that pc/rc uses needs WL, which 100 wl = 20% dmg so id say its about equal still :rolleyes: I disagree, droners also need WillPower. Weapon Lore and Willpower are BOTH secondary skills to P-C/R-C & RCL. Plus they are BOTH in INT, hence the reason I left them from this. A droner can put as many points into WPW as a Pistol/Rifler can put into WEP.
@Kurai
You made some good points, I agree with you that droners are ultimately broken and the current IMP's / SpyPA Proposal are workarounds, not fixes.
@SigmaDraconis
Damn, you beat me to it :p
[Edited - Removed Formulas]
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 11:50
pc and rc... nothing against droners, but they just got like 14 new imps didnt they? jesus stop bitching ^.^
(assuming its 4 imps, 3 levels, the rare, and the MC5)
seriously pc needs it most, then rc, then droners hiding
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
pc and rc... nothing against droners, but they just got like 14 new imps didnt they? jesus stop bitching ^.^
(assuming its 4 imps, 3 levels, the rare, and the MC5)
seriously pc needs it most, then rc, then droners hiding
11 in fact :
3 eyes - very nice
3 Drone Distance CPUs - total shite
3 exp mindcontrol - OK but nothing to get excited about
1 Rare that doesn't even drop
1 MC5
In other words 99% of droners got an eye they love and a chip that they use despite it's flaws. Not exactly the huge boost it first appears to be.
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 12:04
perhaps jernau..but look at the RC/PC chips o.0 dist3 is the only one id call "good". Even the rare and MC5 are fairly usless to spies for the subskills
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
perhaps jernau..but look at the RC/PC chips o.0 dist3 is the only one id call "good". Even the rare and MC5 are fairly usless to spies for the subskills
The problem is DEX - Droners need tons of it all the time at all levels. They only need it because drone TLs are ludicrous especially compared to damage (5x too high was Lupus' calculation I believe).
The sane fix, the one anyone with a clue would use is to massively drop the TL of all drones.
KK don't fix things though, they patch around or over them. The only way to patch around the insane drone TLs is to give us tons of DEX on all our imps. The new ones didn't do that hence are junk.
Anyway, this is OT....
SigmaDraconis
10-09-03, 12:24
well honestly...if my gun had a range of 2k+ some meters and kept me completely out of harms way...was fairly cheap to build and BP....i wouldnt complain about doing less damage than a guy who is on the front line with 200m range eating round after round from the other guy having to repair his armour daily pay for ammo and medkits and get repoked much more often..
BUT..this isnt really a droner discussion thread :)
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 13:13
dont droners get +55 RCL and pistolers etc get +38 or something?
oh and the rare will drop (test server patch 212) and you got 3 rares recently (not complainin... you had none)
im just sayin ok droners needed love, and they got a load
pistol spies ALWAYS need love and never get any! dont leave out pc users kk
droners got all the recent additions, with the exception of the slasher, which i have yet to see a complete one ^.^
TheLastC64User
10-09-03, 13:19
Originally posted by jernau
11 in fact :
3 eyes - very nice
3 Drone Distance CPUs - total shite
3 exp mindcontrol - OK but nothing to get excited about
1 Rare that doesn't even drop
1 MC5
nope, 14
You forgot the 3 normal Mindcontrol CPUs;)
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 13:24
Originally posted by TheLastC64User
nope, 14
You forgot the 3 normal Mindcontrol CPUs;)
i think he was stating new ones... but good point.
+hc imps are... zerks, marine, herc and HBB... thats it
i am not sayin tanks need boost... just pointin out the irony!
tanks... the imps... the 4 rares (hc)... 1 direct fire rare...
droners... dunno how good imps are tbh... 2 rares? (another comin)... RESEARCHABLE rares
imagine 3 capped droners flying the new rare kamikaze drones at you... shit man run like fuck!
I don't get the point of only two PA for spies, I really don't.
Lets face the facts: currently the Private Eye is the most specialized character in the game and the Spy it the jack of all trades. This is the current situation in game, manual or desriptions refer to the pre-specialization time of Neocron.
Spies go three roads of combat: rifles, pistols, drones.
It is just not acceptable to leave one of them out, at least not without knowing a good reason to do so. Where the heck is a problem with 3 or even 4 PAs for spies? We talk about spies here, the class that is waiting so long for any improvements without filling the forums with bitching and whining threads like other classes did. Give spies some lovin' for christ sake.
The majority of spies are rifles and pistols. Droners are an minority, but by not giving them their own PA, we most likely will see even less droners. Droners got some new nice implants, but on the other hand no one else in the entire game has to fight using high TL unmodded equipment with stats in the 80ish % area, we all go for artifact quality. Droners need every boost they can get.
Basically, the best solution for spies would be 4 PAs:
1. R-C
2. P-C
3. RCL
4. WPW
with the 4th aiming at mostly tradeskill oriented spies. They "don't" need that, as they are not the combat specialists, but it would help them a lot.
With only two PAs, I don't see another option then "T-C and RCL" with the mentioned bigger T-C bonus. That I think would be a most fair choice towards all spies as a class, but the worst choice towards the single spy specialization groups. Sad but true :(
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
What I want to know is why do all the drone stats modifiers = 100%....yet the others equal 80 or 90 only.
It equalling 100% doesnt mean anything on capping it, read one of lupus's replies in that thread.
If they ever address the quality cappes on drones, droners imps would be overpowered. But not because of the 80% quality on a PN.
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 13:54
Originally posted by Lucjan
I don't get the point of only two PA for spies, I really don't.
4. WPW
with the 4th aiming at mostly tradeskill oriented spies. They "don't" need that, as they are not the combat specialists, but it would help them a lot.
kk want 2 types of PA per class... 2 for tanks, 2 for PEs, 2 for Psis and 2 for spies
wpw wouldnt help tradeskillers in the slightest O_o what are you talking about?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
wpw wouldnt help tradeskillers in the slightest O_o what are you talking about?
Power armours are designed for combat only ... tradeskilling has Machina Gloves coming. :)
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 14:02
lol i never said they would... :p
whats a machina glove? lol
oh and id rather have PA (some kind of visable armour, with research bonuses)
NC Junkie
nonamebrandeggs
10-09-03, 14:11
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
lol i never said they would... :p
whats a machina glove? lol
oh and id rather have PA (some kind of visable armour, with research bonuses)
NC Junkie
Being in an armor wouldn't help you research, having better fine motor skills would. The machina gloves are GLOVES so they can give you better motor skills, whereas the PA is ARMOR so it will give you better armor! Understand? :p
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
whats a machina glove? lol
Test Server Patch 211 Notes: http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72363
Ok time to throw my 2 pence in. (8 pages... to much to read) For the record I'm a droner, and would prefer a PA with RCL, but as pointed out if someone finds the droner, the droner is a dead meatsack.
The problem lies with the Spy DEX and the fact there are 3 fight skills in DEX, where the other class's have 2 main fight skills. (For PE's it gets complicated)
This is what I consider for each class to be their fight skill.
Spies
Riffle combat (Common)
Remote control (Not so common)
Pistol combat (They do exist)
Monks
APU (Common)
PPU (A little less common)
Tanks
Heavy combat (Common
Melee combat (A little less common)
PE's
Pistol combat. (Common, maybe a little more than rifles)
Riffle combat. (Just as common)
Now with PE's it's possible for them to use drones, but I've left off Remote control as PE's need a lot of RCL and WPW to be even anything decent with a drone, and there isn't enough points available. There is also the problem the the PE could use MC and HC as well, but I dont know much about tank's weapons.
My honest solution is KK need to serriously think about 3 PA for spies or if it has to be 2 with one giving PC and RC and the other giving RCL.
If there are any hybrid PC-RC spies out there, they must be mad! I was once a bybrid pistol-droner, and I was crap. Since loming totally to drones, I could say I've been pretty uber :D
Originally posted by TheLastC64User
nope, 14
You forgot the 3 normal Mindcontrol CPUs;)
He said we "just got" them. The original ones have been here since Beta.
/edit - doh, just noticed jester made this point.
/edit2 -
Originally posted by Brammers
My honest solution is KK need to serriously think about 3 PA for spies or if it has to be 2 with one giving PC and RC and the other giving RCL.
Totally 110% agree. I have yet to hear a single good reason why either of these solutions can't be used. As Ehyuko said "I stopped accepting "because" for an answer after the age of 4."
droner facts in a row
1) capping damage is really hard since drones arent slotted so you cant make the stats higher. (especially a problem with the rare droens)
2) drones go down in no time, a tl 90 drone (pb-1) goes down in about 3 full hits from a wb. (i usually have to launch 3-4 drones to kill a wb with a pb-1, including in-air repairing to keep them alive a little.)
3) droning is pretty expensive (since they go down so fast, you need a lot of them. oow and in case you have a partical nemesis or punisher: you also need to find a real high tl constructor if you want to get good stats at all...)
4) Rigger's Interface is not available yet
5) Rigger's dream is hard as hell to obtain.
so thats why i vote for RCL as pa, second would be T-C to cover both P-C and R-C
so.. if you're not a drone then dont whine that drones have ubertoys (name me 1 "toy" for a droner?), and loads of imps cause in fact you'll only use: mindcontrol/exp mindcontrol/droneye.
question to gm's/kk/anyone who knows more about it: i dont get why there cant be 3 type's of armor? there are 3 combat "proffesions" for spy's so its only fair to give all 3 what they need :/
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 14:28
My gosh... the sheer rancor on this thread....
Well, I say T-C since it would benefit both pistolers and riflers, and RCL for droners.
I say low techers wouldn't get shafted (as much) because they could use the T-C PA to get stealth or some such more easily...
Failing that.... how about an AGL PA with low resists and a RCL PA with high resists... then you guys got a PA for close in work and capable of suprising people and a PA for dishing it out at range but capable of surviving suprise better.
Both would give DEX bonus, so no one gets left out.
I say the AGL/RCL ones sounds better and more equitable.
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 14:31
Originally posted by nonamebrandeggs
Being in an armor wouldn't help you research, having better fine motor skills would. The machina gloves are GLOVES so they can give you better motor skills, whereas the PA is ARMOR so it will give you better armor! Understand? :p
sorry i forgot a piece of armour can increase your damage with a weapon but not improve your ability to use your hands :angel:
oh and i dont want a shitty glove... i want visable armour, based on Res / construct level... that way peeps would know that you really have 150+ skill etc ^.^
Originally posted by ZoneVortex
Ummmmmm why can't there be 3 PAs?
A droner one with RCL and WPW
Pistol one with PC and TC
Rifle one with RC and TC
Seems totally logical to me.
Me too
Personally I dont think the "slighty" bonus in t-c over r-c will cover the loss of points.
To me a solution is giving PA for RC/PC spies, and drones and helmet/glove with equal RCL bonuses (or even another PA).
TC is not a choice for me, I wont vote that retarded option. I have a spy (in fact 4 spies, but only play 2 usually) and I dont want to complain about our PA for another year just because the TC doesnt cover the RC bonuses.
RC/PC
RC/RCL
Dont fuck with t-c, my monk pa didnt come with mst, and I would have complained a lot if it didnt.
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 15:53
Come on... no one will even contemplate the AGL / RCL PAs that I outlined above?
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Come on... no one will even contemplate the AGL / RCL PAs that I outlined above?
I did, and the first thing I thought of was that I already suggested it.
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 16:08
You did? I'll look for it.
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 16:08
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Come on... no one will even contemplate the AGL / RCL PAs that I outlined above?
O_o i know i wont contemplate it... everyone who will get it prob likes there run speed... so it means lomin away the bonus to throw into main skill... time sink and money sink
NC Junkie
ps
ffs just do 3 for the love of god! spies have 3 weapon classes... they are dex masters, dex is 3 weapons! callash no more bullshit excuses like 'what about melee spies?' pistol is a dex skill... dex is a spy stat...
and dont mention PEs having no main skill (not really anyway) so they need loads of different PA's, thats bullshit too... besides as a 'Jack Of All Trades' he shouldnt get any in theory... but i know PE's will have to get it to keep it fair lol
:edit: OT i know but also JOAT chars should not have their own weapon line... as i hear you are making PE's pistol masters... masters are not JOAT people! PE's should cap low pistols / rifles (lib / PE etc) but not have their own weapon line! this is not an attack on PE's... i dont think tanks should kill all cos they are tanks, and spies should always die... but i think tanks should be tough (although not good defence, great offence and great speed[slowed down with cannon or not... you dont need cannon out in ALL the fight ffs, i know i played a capped tank]) and spies should be weaker... but maybe have spies as quickest... we need something, 40 con doesnt cut it resist-wise!(i know we get stealth / anti rad suit... big deal! pistol AoE = shitty rocket pistol (no rare) rifle = NONE... tanks = 3 RARE AoEs... i mean really, thats goin too far!
tanks only won the war cos psis backed them, and they were mass produced... they werent TERMINATORS they were more like a fucking virus, spreading over the battlefield.
anyway this is getting too off topic now ^.^
DigestiveBiscui
10-09-03, 16:12
im hoping it gives resists as well
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 16:12
Scikar...
:quote:
"R-C RCL by far. Pistol spies will never be truly viable, giving them a P-C boost on the PA would just postpone their death by a little.
AN IDEA!
Give it a massive agility boost, like at least +30 for the PA1 and increasing steps of +10 so the PA4 gives +60 agility. Spies are supposed to be light and fast, agile guys, but currently their speed sucks. Droners don't need so much agility but rifle spies do and pistol spies certainly do. So there's your solution, a massive agility boost. And people could still LoM out the extra agility to R-C" :quote:
It seems to me that you wanted BOTH Spy PAs to have AGL bonus... what I said was that ONE type of PA gets the AGL bonus, the other type was RCL.
FirestarXL
10-09-03, 16:14
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Come on... no one will even contemplate the AGL / RCL PAs that I outlined above?
The problem here is the same as kurai pointed out in relation to a TC bonus, only more pronounced. The bonues would not free up nearly enough points in order to compensate for the equivalent in RC/PC/whatever.
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 16:17
if it adds enough, i would agree to agi / rcl PAs
however i would like a run speed adjust so big lumbering tanks... liumbered and wee little spies ran :p
i know this wont happen cos tanks will shout abuse at me and scream they are gettin yet another nerf (it always happens to tank they will say)
NC Junkie
:edit: anyone who thinks pistol spies arent viable hasnt gone against a good one... had to be said.
i 3 hit APU monks in PA... half a clip kills blue PA tanks... i am a non-capped pistol spy drugging to use this weapon... pistol spies can be good
I have 50 agility base with my spy.. 75 with implants. Do you think that lomming 50 points will compensate the 16 RC loss?
Stop half ass solutions please. Main skills are the way to go, period. I dont know why KK is even bothering with this.
*edit: correct, 52 agl base.
Well, its quite clear from the poll and people's responces here that the only sollution thats acceptable is to do a P-C PA and a R-C PA. KK WILL NOT release 3PA's for Spies, wont happen, callash already stated that.
Oh well, at this rate its gonne be delayed... again... :(
Jesterthegreat
10-09-03, 16:25
Originally posted by Callash
I will not guarantee you that I will stick to the result of the poll, as I included ALL options. Some of those have already been ruled out, but like I said, I want to catch your mood.
maybe no delay or changes... maybe hes keepin us busy while siting in his apt wearing RC armour, staring at RCL armour
:( :mad: :(
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 16:36
Fine, then if you guys want mainskills, lets go with P-C and R-C then, and come out with a greater variety of RCL implants to make it up for the droners.
Why not have RCL and R-C as Spy-only PA then remove the "class" restrictions from the PE's P-C variant (assuming such a thing exists)?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
wpw wouldnt help tradeskillers in the slightest O_o what are you talking about?
My mistake, sorry, I meant WPL (weapon lore) what could help some trader spies became more usefull in combat. Anyway, that was about an "ideal" situation with many spy PAs, not limited to two of them.
Originally posted by jernau
Why not have RCL and R-C as Spy-only PA then remove the "class" restrictions from the PE's P-C variant (assuming such a thing exists)?
You, my friend, are a genius.
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Fine, then if you guys want mainskills, lets go with P-C and R-C then, and come out with a greater variety of RCL implants to make it up for the droners. Someone didn't read my post...
Droners can get +55 RCL from implants WITHOUT gimping their dex (Their RCL Implants GIVE DEX)
Pistolers / Riflers can get a max of +38 P-C / R-C from implants, but using those implants means we gimp our maximum dex as we only get +14 DEX from ours, as opposed to +19 DEX from a droners.
The droners dont need MORE implants.
@jernau
*Applauds* Best idea yet, even better as SpyPA and PE PA are being released at the same time. Doubt KK will go for it though as the class attribute was being brought it to PREVENT a Spy using PE PA and vica-verca.
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 17:05
Neowhatever, I HAVE been reading this thread.
GO make a a droner. See how much the RCL implants help you in getting anything resembling decent damage on the constructed rares.
GO. STFU about drones until then.
Psyco Groupie
10-09-03, 17:05
t-c / rcl is the only fair one and if its a bigger tc bonus it just he same as smaller bonus to rifle/ pistol .. all the people who voted to have no droner PA are complete losers ... pistol spies (traders or fools) should have a pa fullstop .. only because of constatn whining do u get something
if it goes rifle / pistol im gonna be seriously mad
Psyco Groupie
10-09-03, 17:09
implants arent the issue here - a droner needs more rcl to 'cap' a drone than some pistol trade skilling scumbag and the big tc bonus would help your greatly cos you cant get alot from imps .. going back to your point on imps ... idiots
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Neowhatever, I HAVE been reading this thread.
GO make a a droner. See how much the RCL implants help you in getting anything resembling decent damage on the constructed rares.
GO. STFU about drones until then.
He HAS played a Droner. Might even still be playing one, I'm not sure.
If the P-C PE armour has it's restrictions removed so Spies can wear it can you IMAGINE the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the PEs? Besides at that point it's not "2 PAs for each class" exclusively, and I get the feeling KK won't go for that.
I think it's all been said already. If you want to try to please as many people as possible, go T-C and RCL. It's never going to be as useful as a main-skill booster like the P-C/R-C or R-C/RCL suits though, so I'd err for one of those. Considering the arguements about Droners not needing armour so much (Which is accurate TBH - that's the whole point of Droning!), I'd say go P-C/R-C with the Spy PAs. The key to pleasing the Droners is adding in a couple of extra Rare drones, and reducing the frankly ludicrous reqs/caps on them (And yes, I do play a Droner regularly).
No matter what you do though Callash, there's always going to be people who're going to bitch/moan/throw toys out of the pram/scweam and scweam until they turn blue. Such is the nature of Forums. :rolleyes:
Shock.
I doubt KK gives enought TC to compensate the RC bonuses... so no, TC is a half ass solution, to make us to LOM, and probably to not get the same bonuses.
Here people have been written really good arguments of why a RCL PA is not necessary, but a fix in drones quality is. Hence people who said "no to droner PA" is actually trying to find a solution to the real problem... and that is far from being a loser.
I dont really know the solution to this, besides what I already mentioned of a 'Droner Helmet', and RC/PC PA. But one thing is for sure... secondary skills are half ass solutions, which force people to LOM, and are avoiding the real community problem.
If anyone cares, I have 1 rifle spy, 1 pistol spy and 2 droners, one of which is now lomming to pistols.
Psyco Groupie
10-09-03, 17:36
all they need todo is make the TC bonus over 75 tc to be the same as the rcl bonus over 100 points ie:
15 points of rcl over 100 = 5 x 15 = 75
15 poitns of tc over 75 = 3 x 15 = 45
so all u'd need todo is make the tc bonus 25 .. 3 x 25 = 75
now .. hows that sound pistol people ? .. u'd actually only needa few points over 50 with such a bonus so its pretty amazing if u ask me
Phiberdelic
10-09-03, 17:37
This is supposed to be armour right?? So what are the resists like, better than battle3's???
Well if the resists are better than we can get currently then to all those moaning about not getting enough this or enough that, just STFU, you're getting something out of the deal right???
If it doesn't work for your delicate setups then just don't use the stuff.
So you can say how much T-C has everyone in the server... being as it is a secondary skill?
You are making many assumptions; and to follow your same path, I assume that you havent read all the thread. Otherwise you would have seen Kurai's post.
And this is a "Power Armor", an specific class tool which is designed to have the same fair advantage/disadvantage relation in all classes.. not only if it gives resists or not. Which if it was the only purpose of the PA, droners would never get it, as their armor are the drones.
Try to think a bit more in the line of the discussion Mr Phiberdelic.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
all they need todo is make the TC bonus over 75 tc to be the same as the rcl bonus over 100 points ie:
15 points of rcl over 100 = 5 x 15 = 75
15 poitns of tc over 75 = 3 x 15 = 45
so all u'd need todo is make the tc bonus 25 .. 3 x 25 = 75
now .. hows that sound pistol people ? .. u'd actually only needa few points over 50 with such a bonus so its pretty amazing if u ask me
at over 50 though its only +2
I voted PC and RC. Droners need something else then simply more RCL.
Originally posted by Heavyporker
Neowhatever, I HAVE been reading this thread.
GO make a a droner. See how much the RCL implants help you in getting anything resembling decent damage on the constructed rares.
GO. STFU about drones until then. You obviously didnt read it properly then. I created a test server droner AND I had, until recently an active droner on Pluto. I stated about the testserver droner in a thread a few pages back.
Calm down, I didnt flame you, nore anyone else. I didnt use that insulting rolleyes crap. I made a simple statement and you flamed me for it.
@Shockwave - Cheers :)
I still think the P-C / R-C option is now the best. I stated why in my post a few pages back, maybe you could have the curtosy to go and read it PROPERLY.
Originally posted by Shockwave
If the P-C PE armour has it's restrictions removed so Spies can wear it can you IMAGINE the wailing and gnashing of teeth from the PEs? Besides at that point it's not "2 PAs for each class" exclusively, and I get the feeling KK won't go for that.
Why would PEs get so upset? How would it hurt them? Do tanks complain when PEs spec for Duranit? Do Spies complain about PEs using Rifles?
The "2 PAs for each class" thing still has yet to be explained and justified, as does the "one combat-skill per PA" thing. Until KK want to provide decent reasons for these "rules" I have to assume they are just daft ideas stuck in someone's head there. If so then I suggest that person reconsider their position as they aren't getting a whole heap of support for it here.
Will people please stop all this "I know about being a XXXXXX because I made one on the Test Server".
Firstly - that's not what it's there for. IMO anyone saying this kind of thing should be explaining to Lupus why they deserve to log in there again.
Secondly - It's a 100% useless statement. TS levelling is a cakewalk compared to the real servers. Producing a capped XXXXXX with an ideal setup, all the rares, etc. etc. is not a valid way to test the experience of the average gamer on the real servers as he goes through the lifespan of his character.
/edit - @Mods - sorry for double post but they address 2 different issues I wanted to keep seperate.
Ok, ok, now you made me do it...
:rolleyes:
Skill wise, the TS is identical to the retail server. The skills dont vary, only the levelling speed.
Secondally, as you can see, I used rare implants in BOTH configurations. Making it a fair comparisson.
Thirdly, and Im stating this again because it seems you didnt hear me the first time... I UNTIL RECENTLY HAD A RETAIL DRONER.
Ive had experience from both sides of this argument, and I can 100% without doubt say that the +55 RCL droners can get with implants far outweighs the +38 (30 if you dont gimp DEX) that Pistol / Rifle users get. Drone AND Rifle damage are worked out on the same scale, 70% Main Skill. Hence, Droners already have a foot up.
Im laying it straight, in my eyes, droners dont need the SpyPA. You already get huge boosts from other implants.
I really hope this gets resolved soon, its getting mighty hot in this thread o_O
Darth Slayer
10-09-03, 18:29
Well if they decide to drop RCL out of the power armor I will have to seriously consider my Future in this game I'm tired of having my primary character gimped all the time, I voted fot T-C and RCL btw...........:mad:
Heavyporker
10-09-03, 18:33
I'm having a hard enough time trying to keep track of dozens of posts at the same time while I try to be equitable, so sorry if I didn't have your whole post memorized, but I definitely remember something egregious about your posts, which is that Droners don't need the RCL bonus from their own PA, because basically pistolers/riflers have to either choose DEX or skill in their implants. The fact of the matter is, pistolers/riflers come a LOT closer to capping their weapons even with the limited choices they face than droners do with their mildly sufficent spread of implants.
Trust me, one nice set of eyes isn't enough to get us over the hill of 80% quality rares. And distance isn't enough of an arguement to deny droners their PA... riflers often stay far back enough that armor doesn't become an issue for them. Note I said "often".
And I doubt testing setups on test server is at all indicative of what we droners suffer though on retail. I'm sorry that you chose to use a test server setup, a place that was intended to test patch features, not some sort of character optimization scheme, as a position to speak from.
And why are so many people complaining about having to lom out points? At the level required to use PAs, they're not likely to lose any levels from shifting a block of points around, and the bonuses would pay off the palty few k's of ncs needed for the loms.
PA isn't necessarily all about armor protection, it's often a collection of equipment giving enhanced strength to the intended abilities... tank PA basically hydraulic-controlled armor with built in sights or whatever, PSI PA's some sort of conductive stuff boosting the monk user's brain, the spy PAs most likely fancy electronic linkups that either offers data feeds to improve your aim or control over your weapon or more energy to pump out signals to your drones, so the point that PA's only for frontline fighters falls flat on its face.
Originally posted by NeoLojik
Ok, ok, now you made me do it...
:rolleyes:
Skill wise, the TS is identical to the retail server. The skills dont vary, only the levelling speed.
Secondally, as you can see, I used rare implants in BOTH configurations. Making it a fair comparisson.
.......
Where did I say it referred to you in particular or to drones even? I was referring to an increasing common phenomena in many threads on this board.
As for "only the levelling speed" - that is exactly my point. Most players spend most of their time levelling. Trying to compare classes or skills without making the levelling process your highest priority throws your whole point out the window IMO. If you want to argue about capped char setups go to one of the "I'm 733t me" willy-waving threads. This thread is about balancing items at least half of which are for un-capped characters.
Shadow Walker
10-09-03, 18:36
I DON'T UNDERSTAND!!! What is theproblem???? Make at least 2 PA for Rifle/Pistols, make at least 2 others for droners and that's all!! Why should there be only 2 combat types covers? Damint we have been waiting so LONG for a damn PA that would make the spies potent!! Don't leave any fighting style out pf the way?
I f I really have to vote I vote for a droner PA as I'll lom my level 59 rifle spy to go droner...
(Hope I'm not really to late in this discussion and that I don't say anything stupid).
ANYWAY UNERVE THE SPIES, give us dex armors, and give us good PA...
Originally posted by Jernau
Firstly - that's not what it's there for. IMO anyone saying this kind of thing should be explaining to Lupus why they deserve to log in there again.
You have 100% of my agreement here.
Originally posted by Jernau
Why would PEs get so upset? How would it hurt them? Do tanks complain when PEs spec for Duranit? Do Spies complain about PEs using Rifles?
And 50% here. While I understand your point of view, the PA's are now a class specific tool.. unlike armors and weapons, which can be used by any class with the willing to try.
I do not allude to the req's on the PA's now, but most to the fact that it is considered an specific bonus factor to those who decide to specialize in the most fitted skill for their class.. call it cookie-cutter, or simply what the specialization bonus should be; instead all this crap of having to spend insane loads of points in one skill to compete at it.
However I understand the point of KK, or I think I do, when they refrain to release a third PA "only" for spies. While the same community is who ask for it, the same community will use it as a weapon against spies, KK and eventually will claim a third PA for themselves aswell.
That's why I cant see a good solution for this... maybe KK should start fixing the quality of drones, either making them cheaper and allowing slots, or raising/eliminating the quality caps in drones. Definelty the problem does not reside in the skills or TL formulas.
Darth Slayer
10-09-03, 18:41
If they eliminated the quality cap for drones how long would u think it would take before the Nerf the Droner's threads started......:rolleyes:
The question is: do you think that droners would be overpowered capping their weapons?
Look at poison.. its stack was fixed, and it showed a very different nature, far from being underpowered as everyone thought.
The consequent nerfs however made this a reality after all.
Psyco Groupie
10-09-03, 18:46
all the people who say this armor is armor and there fore the bonus doesnt matter - if i wanted my 13 or so peircing i'd wear battle 3 .. i want my fucking rcl bonus becos ALL other classes will have a POWER ARMOR that helps with combat skills ... now admit your pistol spy is the lamest thing since pop idol and enjoy your gigantic tech bonus
Shadow Walker
10-09-03, 18:47
Again I can't see the problem about "PA are specific tools of classes" to make a PA specifically for spy just ask for high DEx and INT Pe cap at 60 in INtelligence. I'm sure it would be easy to avoid this.
Or even better idea : make the spy PA only usable by spies as the epic reward of CA can only be used by Cm. Simple and easy.
Ho well I voted for droner PA that means I vote for RCL and hightech combat. Spies can use pistols efficiently the way it is actually and a PA won't change a thing about that (even if some rare pistols are designed for spies I wonder why...). For the Rifle spies they will have the possibility to LOM Hightech combat to have more of WL , WHICH IS THE MAIN PROBELM FOR A RIFLE SPY, I don't think rifle spies need more RC in general they can out range the mobs and more RCL won't make them survive better in dungeons, but they need every single point of weapon lore to PVP as it's incredibly difficult to aim with a rifle... Personnaly that's my main problems in PVP as a hacker/rifle I miss to much when shooting I can barely move when trying to aim at something with more than 140 Wl...
Well that's just my opinion but I think it will be more balanced to put RCl and hightech combat than RC and PC.
As far as I know all PA's will have a class requirement.
Psyco Groupie
10-09-03, 18:54
pas will be limited to classes .. thats not the issue here O.o
Disturbed021
10-09-03, 18:57
Originally posted by Sleawer
The question is: do you think that droners would be overpowered capping their weapons?
Prolly not since drones die in just a few seconds normally.
It should go R-C and P-C because they are the least played and least used. Maybe I am a little slow why can't we have 3 different types of suits?
Whitestuff
10-09-03, 20:39
Originally posted by ZoneVortex
Ummmmmm why can't there be 3 PAs?
A droner one with RCL and WPW
Pistol one with PC and TC
Rifle one with RC and TC
Seems totally logical to me.
OMG this makes so much sense. Who cares if Spys have 3 PA's? It wouldn't hardly benefit a P-C Spy to wear a RCL PA now would it? So why does it matter if we have 3? There wouldn't be any need to say "Spys have 3 PA's that's unbalaanced" because really only one of the three would be a viable addition to the Spy's stats. How would it be unbalanced. Oh wait now I see, check this out:
OP battle. A R-C Spy has on RCL PA..... Whips out. . .. dun dun dun!!!.... a HEW Light Attack Drone? WTF? I might get a staff infection 3 years from now from the nails it shoots. Oh yeah, that's REALLY unbalanced. Or maybe he could use the RCL to lvl faster.... oh wait he's wearing PA, He's nearly capped anyway....
See what I mean?
Spikadelia
10-09-03, 20:44
Okay here's my pennies worth......
My spy Drones. As noted many times before there are a history of serious flaws in the way the whole droning set-up is handled. It’s bugs, ludicrously high TL’s for RESing, CSTing costs and quality cap have been persistent and justifiable complaints.
I’m now into the 90’s in both INT and DEX but when I look at neocron.ems.ru
I glance with envy at the list of rifles and pistols available at high level Spies and am already contemplating a visit to Tylor’s Biochem… worse than many childhood hours in the dentist’s chair. Just for variety and interest they seem much more seductive than the two rare drones on offer to the Droner. I’ve now seen the Punisher and the Nemesis in action and was sadly unimpressed, and a visit to the forums reinforces any doubts I may have had.
Yet when I made the choice to spend those hours levelling I knew that the Droner’s art and skill was not front line combat. Elusive, shadowy and dangerous I thought. So while I long for a boost to help droning skills and I’d love a funky set of armour I’d much prefer rare imps that dropped, an overhaul of the droning system using some of the great ideas about launchers etc etc that have been floated in the forums…
I see the voting case of the Rifle and in particular Pistol Spies that if anyone should get a specialised Armour for combat it’s those guys before us Droners brooding in the cellar.
So KK hand out those guys the P.A but then address the issue of Drone TL’s, quality caps and variety and then you will have THREE viable and interesting Spy options….. seems like you’re asking us to tell you which class to leave dead in the water. Rather let’s broaden the scope of the game and enhance the viability of more playing styles.
But sadly... my lack of faith prevailed and I voted for T-C and RCL. I just hope nobody saw me.
Dribble Joy
10-09-03, 20:55
I'm going to be a complete n00b hear and say TC/RCL
The rifle and pistol users can simply put it's bonus into PC or RC.
In the end it will probably end up as RC/RCL, as spys seem to be being weaned off pistols atm.
I haven't read the whole thread but:
I voted Rifle and Remote.
Though I _personally_ don't see why there shouldn't be one for Pistol one for Rifle and one for Droners. However Callash has probably been told by the devs that there will be two PA's for each class and no more. Thats my theory, he's just doing his job.
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
all they need todo is make the TC bonus over 75 tc to be the same as the rcl bonus over 100 points ie:
15 points of rcl over 100 = 5 x 15 = 75
15 poitns of tc over 75 = 3 x 15 = 45
so all u'd need todo is make the tc bonus 25 .. 3 x 25 = 75
now .. hows that sound pistol people ? .. u'd actually only needa few points over 50 with such a bonus so its pretty amazing if u ask me One other problem that occurs to be with the TC idea is that you would be *utterly* fucked without the armour on/activated.
Not able to use stealth *at all*, not able to use any but the n00biest weapons etc ... dead meat, basically.
Effectively a capped player would instantly become a /15 n00b till the SI completely wears off, or you get armour repaired or whatever.
With the bonus in a main skill it's just that ... a *bonus* ... gives you that extra edge on top of your base setup. You aren't *totally* dependent on it.
The more I think about it the worse the TC idea sounds.
T-C and RCL
that way all spys are advantaged, those points in TC will give more free points to both pistol and Rifles spies and the RCL will be for droners so everybody will be happy
Originally posted by kurai
The more I think about it the worse the TC idea sounds.
Yup =/
*votes for 3 pa's* :(
Originally posted by Heavyporker
... The fact of the matter is, pistolers/riflers come a LOT closer to capping their weapons even with the limited choices they face than droners do with their mildly sufficent spread of implants.
Trust me, one nice set of eyes isn't enough to get us over the hill of 80% quality rares...
...
And why are so many people complaining about having to lom out points? At the level required to use PAs, they're not likely to lose any levels from shifting a block of points around, and the bonuses would pay off the palty few k's of ncs needed for the loms.
Ok - I picked the two most problematic points to comment on ...
Firstly - getting hung up on "capping" the drones is sort of missing the point.
You (and KK) need to fix your sights on how effective using the drone is for a given skill investment, not the arbitrary numbers on the drone info page.
Try and get into the mind set of X skill value gives me Y damage output, rather than X skill gives me Z% of a drone stat.
i.e. for an investment of 185 WPW/185 RCL your Particle Nemesis should be as effective as a First Love with similar investment of WEP/RC
(these are *example* figures - please dont use them as real world figures to go and calculate stuff with - it's the proof of concept I'm trying to get across, not the empirical numbers).
Secondly ... the XP & CR cost of the loms isn't the issue.
It's more that once lommed, that skill is *gone* until you don the armour. You can't just continue with your standard "unboosted" setup because you now have a massive hole in your config.
Imagine, for a moment that there was a "Sprinter PA" ... it gave you a bonus of 70AGL/70ATL ...
Great, one might think - I can now lom out all my AGL/ATL and spend the points elsewhere.
But ... now you GeneRep, or drop your armour in a belt, or it gets damaged to 0%...
Suddenly you have *zero* ATL/AGL, and are transformed into an insta-cripple.
Until you can get that armour on again you might as well just go play in the sewers and let /15 newbs run rings around you.
bibliotequa
10-09-03, 23:01
i say give 3 diffrent pa's, each one will give -20 or w/e to the other 2 stats (so if its pistol, its +X P-C, +X Weapon Lore -20 R-C, -20 RCL, -20 Will Power) and then the agil or whatever, and maybe have rifle and pistol give like +5 tech combat or something.
Though since this option wasnt there, i voted for rifle and drone, since there are few pistol spies, most pistolers are pes, though there are people like ste-x who pistol spy...
MjukisDjur
10-09-03, 23:22
no way im gonna read this whole thread but the dead animal option was fun... even the developers see the importance of dead animals :)
PsycheBlade
11-09-03, 00:33
Originally posted by kurai
One other problem that occurs to be with the TC idea is that you would be *utterly* fucked without the armour on/activated.
Effectively a capped player would instantly become a /15 n00b till the SI completely wears off, or you get armour repaired or whatever.
The more I think about it the worse the TC idea sounds. I get the same notion. Since you can't wear the armor naturally the wearer would be even more dependent on getting imps back in when they pop out.
Someone try to summon Callash, I'm not sure of the correct way. It's been far too many pages since he last said anything and I'm sure plenty of us want some reasonable answeres to our questions.
Originally posted by kurai
One other problem that occurs to be with the TC idea is that you would be *utterly* fucked without the armour on/activated.
Not able to use stealth *at all*, not able to use any but the n00biest weapons etc ... dead meat, basically.
Effectively a capped player would instantly become a /15 n00b till the SI completely wears off, or you get armour repaired or whatever.
With the bonus in a main skill it's just that ... a *bonus* ... gives you that extra edge on top of your base setup. You aren't *totally* dependent on it.
The more I think about it the worse the TC idea sounds.
Exactly.
Stopped reading at page 9.
What will the minuses be? If there's a PC and an RC version, droners would still benefit from the dex as long as there's no negative to RCL.
I've been a droner for a while before I switched to rifles, and I don't think more RCL bonuses would help anyone. Drones need fixed, droners don't need more bonuses.
Neo LoneWolf
11-09-03, 00:49
I simply don't get why droners want power armour. They want a boost to their combat skills to cap their weapons? If there really is this diffuculty in reaching an acceptable level of combat-effectiveness compared to other weapons, then shouldn't it be being asked for a bigger effect from RCL & WPW? Droner's combat skill are the most isolated combat skills there are, and so should be far easier to alter.
Droners called out for more WPW & RCL and were rewarded with a bunch of exceptionally dull and little-thought-out Droning chips, including a rare & an MC5 one. These chips *only* add to one combat ability (er - droning) without reducing any even party-desirable skill for the droner, including the rare & MC5 chips (compared to the other rares which add to multiple combat skills and add to secondary skills too).
Now they want PA?
Seriously, why?
Beyond a RCL boost, what use is it going to be? Is it going to be used for its protective capabilities? Not a great deal.
Eh.
Was it Callash who deigned that pistols were more in the PE domain than that of the spy? Personally, I feel it's T-C weapons that should be the domain of the spy, and low-tech that of the PE.
As for the choices? Droner-PA is just . . . unnecessary. RC/PC completely. After that, TC/RCL (even though as a rifle-using spy., RC would be much more preferable) - Make TC the distinction between Spies and PEs.
Shadow Dancer
11-09-03, 01:29
If the PE had any "domain" of his very own, then he will no longer be a jack of all trades and hence any gifts and equipment he gets from other classes using the excuse "WTF WE'RE JACK OF ALL TRADES" should be removed.
PE's haven't been JOATs since the massive weapon specialization was introduced.
I'm going to have to stick with my original opinion of either making 3 PA's, having P-C/R-C PA, or getting like a +70 bonus to T-C if they go with T-C/RCL.
Also, fix everything about drones and their imps so they won't even *need* PA. Just give 'em a helmet acquired in the same fashion the Monkie PA is.
--Stryfe
Helen Angilley
11-09-03, 03:03
PEs are JOATs.
Just people are so damn eager to be "Uber", and see their weapon stats maxed out, that very few people see this.
Of course a PE isn't a JOAT if you want from life is "ownage" in PVP.
Just idly worked out the ramifications of having the bonus as T-C and the armour inactive/broken/dropped . . .
I wouldn't be able to use even the lowest TC rifle (a TL-17 Unlabeled Slowfire ) if my armour wasn't activated as the minimum TC requirement is 21.
If I died I'd have a minimum 75% chance of not being able to use my weapons (let alone stealth) till I was poked up again.
(6 out of my 12 imps add DEX and/or TC, and I pop a minimum of 2 each time I die)
If I generepped anywhere that wasn't a clan owned outpost I'd have to wait 2.25 minutes before I could use a gun each time.
Dunno about you, but that just sucks Teh Big One, as far as I am concerned.
Might as well create a Wheelbarrow dynamic object, so you can cart all the spy corpses away if this TC armour ever gets made.
What is the problem? Make one armour that gives T-C, P-C and R-C and the other one for droners. Are you worried about those uber Pistol-Rifle Hybrid Spies? The bulk of users of the former will either use the P-C bonus or the R-C bonus and the other will be irrelevant.
It's not rocket science.
Edit: Of course it wouldn't be necessary if you just did 3 PAs. "Why have you chosen 2?" "Because that is what everyone else is having"; it's a patently absurd decision based on an arbitrary numerical coincidence with no actual justification. We just have to accept the ipse dixit declaration that there will only be 2.
Jesterthegreat
11-09-03, 12:12
lol... pistol / rifle all the way lads
as has been said... dronin need to be fixed... but not by denying others what they DO need as close combat chars
There is an upenormous up-side to the T-C suit though Kurai. Stealth would be almost free for all capped spies.
50 points of T-C is not much to spend and most rifle spies get at least 10 from implants even at fairly low levels.
The suit would only need to give ~30 T-C to get a capped rifle spy up to stealth 3.
Quick numbers on high level but not capped :
Targeting 3 = +5
Distance 3 = +8
SF = +5
Rifle Boost 1 = +4
Let's guess 30 from the suit (I'd hope for more) = 30
TOTAL = 52
Therefore only 28 needed for stealth 1 or 43 for stealth 2
If you have a PPU to cast Rifle 3 it drops to 16 and 31 respectively. So 7 points off R-C gets you a Stealth 2. That's an amazing boost.
Also, pre-cap you might also be using a S-Cyber 4 to get better belts which is +10 meaning only 5 points off R-C for stealth 2.
A capped char with an SA and rifle 3 would get stealth 3 for only 36 T-C or 8 R-C less.
Considering 90%+rifle spies have T-C already what this means is that 90%+ of rifle spies will have high level stealth capability.
Now that's what spies should be like.
I love this idea more and more.
/edit - All the above applies just as well to pistolers too of course and they need stealth 100x more.
Jesterthegreat
11-09-03, 12:26
but as has been pointed out... dropping armour or needing pokes FUCKS you big time
imagine not findin a poker... not bein able to use tech weapons o.O
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
but as has been pointed out... dropping armour or needing pokes FUCKS you big time
imagine not findin a poker... not bein able to use tech weapons o.O
How does that differ from needing a poker now? Very few spies have much excess DEX over their top weapon so one implant is already enough to screw us up. At least it's easier to put armour back on than it is to find a poker.
If you want to be cautious you can use a PA that you can get into with a drug if you lose an implant.
Jesterthegreat
11-09-03, 12:46
if i lose a dex imp i can drug up... if i lose like 50 TC due to PA not bein usable im kinda screwed
and the point i was making is what if you CANT put it on til you get poker? then you have -dex AND -50 tc...
:edit: and whats with the forums not saying 'last edited by' anymore?
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
:edit: and whats with the forums not saying 'last edited by' anymore?
5 minute "grace period" to sneakily hide your typos. Came in about a month ago.
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
if i lose a dex imp i can drug up... if i lose like 50 TC due to PA not bein usable im kinda screwed
and the point i was making is what if you CANT put it on til you get poker? then you have -dex AND -50 tc...
Surely that's only a problem if it's actually wrecked. Same problem if your gun is wrecked or a major implant. At least PA isn't a rare so you can have spares easily and/or use less skilled repairers.
Psyco Groupie
11-09-03, 13:05
its not like you dont need to watch if your gun is gonna wreck - just carry another armor and get a friend with repair skill
Jesterthegreat
11-09-03, 13:05
or a problem if you can only use the PA with imps...
and i try not to typo so i didnt notice lol
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
or a problem if you can only use the PA with imps...
and i try not to typo so i didnt notice lol
So keep a lower level PA in your gogu and design you character to be able to work with that and drugs in an emergency. I've done a few char plans on this basis and they look awesome.
Also - for pistolers, WEP is less important - put some points into IMP. Even riflers can be able to afford enough to get by.
Jesterthegreat
11-09-03, 13:28
or...
give us PA for primary stats like every other PA...
surely if spies gettin 3 PAs would be overpowered... so is everyone gettin main stat PA except spies? O_o
Prior to working over the numbers my preferences were :
1) 3 PAs
2) 2 PAs - one RCL and one R-C AND P-C
3) 2 PAs - one RCL and one T-C OR WEP
Now that I've done the number on this though I have only one preference :
2 PAs - One RCL and one T-C
I would much rather have T-C than either R-C or P-C now I've seen what it can do (on paper) ASSUMING the boost is significant (at least 30 on the PA3).
I have all three types of spy and this is best for all of them IMO.
FirestarXL
11-09-03, 13:55
Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
surely if spies gettin 3 PAs would be overpowered...
I don't think anyone has made a case for this yet, it's still the best solution. Only an initial rule in order to keep things "fair" is stopping it, and I think we've already proven that it needs an exception.
Jesterthegreat
11-09-03, 14:00
Originally posted by FirestarXL
I don't think anyone has made a case for this yet, it's still the best solution. Only an initial rule in order to keep things "fair" is stopping it, and I think we've already proven that it needs an exception.
exactly (i was saying if peeps think it is, then they must think a secondary stat on PA is UNDERPOWERED... i was in no way saying 3PAs will be overpowered ^.^)
and yeah i know callash has said 2 PAs
oh and if it MUST be tc... it HAS to equal the hc boost etc... remember that +12 HC (for example) is more than +12 tc... cos who has more than 95 tc (except for stealth 3 or usin tc weapons out of gr)... all tanks have more than 95 hc (if they are HC and high enough for PA)
no pistol spy would say "neh i dont need the pistol bonus"
no rifle spy would say "neh i dont need the rifle bonus"
no droner spy would say "neh i dont need the droner bonus"
anyone who would say "droners dont need that bonus!" or "riflers dont need that bonus!" or "pistollers dont need that bonus!" would be acting selfish.
so?
either give a pa that covers all classes, or insert an armor which covers all these combat-professions. (like t-c/rcl for instance)
i prefer the first option though.. but hey, who am i :p
EXATCLY!!! WE DRONERS have no fun!! other classes have so many nice weapons to choose from while we get two dully thought our particle nemesis (primary weapon) and punisher the ridiculous one just for leveling.
Do you know what it feels like to watch every other class playing with slotted rifles, and power armor and many many weapon choices tooi?! we have been waiting for this boost for ages and you are here to tell me you are going to remove it?! maybe it doesn't do that much, but it means much to have something else to play around with.
What would you feel like if everyone spie had power armor and you didn't, only a bunch of lame chips. KK work on droners later? How long did it take for these armors to come out?!?! I am not willing to wait again until we get a new toy. Look at DOY its not even out a year later...when there is 60 players of saturn? then I get my toys? then screw this I'm going back to Anarchy! REMEMBER DRONES CANT EVEN STEALTH
So many selfish people I can simply say pistol users don't need the boost...they can cap their wepaons already...wtf I am getting so annoyed...same as saying droners don't need the armor, take away their only joy for months and waited for months, just because I am scared I can't get that armor. Well screw you. You'd feel bad if I suddenly said sorry no PA for you guys.
So what if you remove the cap, drones die at 3 hits, hopeless agasint parashocks. Even if you removed the cap we won't be as good as an APU ever. No one will say nerf the droners unless they really made them good. Which is hard judging by all the problems of droning already.l
I have read through the entire thread, the implants were added but it just helps with the ridiculous. The idiot who said he has a droner obviously didn't really have a droner. No droner I know has that MC5 riggers fuck in the game. The implants add a hell lot, but my damage as a 110 dex spy is no wear near that of equivelent. and i'm a pure droner, no tradeskill. YOU GUYS ALSO don't need to cope with the everyday bugs of droning. AND HERE YOU ARE TELLING ME THAT THE THING I WANTED MOST IS TAKEN OUT BECAUSE YOU GUYS WERE SELFISH?!
You know we want armor that makes us look better too....I thinkg everyone will agree neocron needs more clothes...and I don't think droners should get kicked out just because they are a minority
They are a fucking minority because they are fucking gimped bugged a. It can be so fun really...guys why do you like to ruin our fun again and again..!
SigmaDraconis
11-09-03, 15:08
lol
I say gimp the droners more i like teh funny posts ! :D
i say forget P-C, R-C, T-C and RCL. just give the PA a sh!t load of FIR, ENR, XRY. say in the 90+ range. then tank etc. can b!tch all they want.:D
Originally posted by enablerbr
i say forget P-C, R-C, T-C and RCL. just give the PA a sh!t load of FIR, ENR, XRY. say in the 90+ range. then tank etc. can b!tch all they want.:D
90+ range in major resists = 75% of server's population reroll to spy = almost no monks = I somehow start to like that idea ;-)
I'd still like to hear the reason for the "2 PA each class" limitation...
Original monk
11-09-03, 16:09
This is a very intresting thread alot has been said, good idea's and funny idea's as well as crap idea's. im being vagely on purpose.
I keep it short: RIFLE & PISTOL :P
Still no word from Callash o_O
Seems the public want P-C & R-C PA though, cant say I disagree. I still believe droners have an advantage with their implants, and that plowing more RCL via a suit into them wont solve the problem that the drones are fundemetially flawed (imo :p)
Hope it dont get delayed further :(
Shadow Walker
11-09-03, 16:34
A RC spy wearing a RCL suit? Well I think it would just be stupid... He will have the attack level of a x/10 droner at most what's the point in doing this I don't know, well it will be like an implant you can change fast and you could use a drone to make a recon that's all... Really I don't see anything really interesting about wearing a suit out of your specialisation but I understand the problem better...
What about a real non rare sniper rifle if the rifle spies do't get the PA?
I in no way read this thread except for the initial post (too big and I have work soon). But I chose RCL and TC, this way both classes are catered for (as we can LoM the points made up for in TC and put them into RC or PC (depending on your skill).
If that fails, then I would like to get RC and PC out of it (this is obviously biased as I am a rifler but thats what Id liek anyway).
[edit]Alternatively, keep the two PAs as one RC and one PC, and give the droners a glove as they don't need psi while they are droning :)
Ozambabbaz
11-09-03, 16:51
Spy PA's = 3
P-C
R-C
Drone PA = high negatives to ath&agl, PC and RC, but makes them less visible, ie transparency or like stealth, just without the "flutter" in the bluish graphics, but abit more marked.
Edit: fergot, drone PA = removed from local list
Darth Slayer
11-09-03, 16:54
I agree what Rai Wong has so eloquently wrote.
I too have waited for ages for a droner PA and unlike Rai I'm a tradeskiller droner so I'm alot more gimped than pure cmbt droners and even Tradeskiller Rifle/Pistol users. In the end Callash will make his decision for good or bad and a lot of you ingrates will no doubt flame him, but hey I suppose it's what he's paid for......:rolleyes:
Shadow Walker
11-09-03, 17:03
Great idea Ozam making the droner less visible would be a great option.
Mingerroo : TC is an Int attribute you can't lom it to have more RC or PC. But for rifle user you can't have enough weapon lore, it's hard to deal the damages when the ennemy run around...
If we can have 2 PA : make one for rifles, and make one for droners.How can you use a pistol when you die in 2 shots of almost any weapon? Anyway could we have an answer about the PA? I think all the arguments have been put in this thread, so just give us an answer about the PA and put it out...
ericdraven
11-09-03, 17:05
Originally posted by Shadow Walker
Mingerroo : TC is an Int attribute you can't lom it to have more RC or PC. But for rifle user you can't have enough weapon lore, it's hard to deal the damages when the ennemy run around...
Interesting.. it seems i missed that fact.
FirestarXL
11-09-03, 17:13
Originally posted by Shadow Walker
Mingerroo : TC is an Int attribute you can't lom it to have more RC or PC. But for rifle user you can't have enough weapon lore, it's hard to deal the damages when the ennemy run around...
No, TC is a dex attribute, it can be lommed into RC, but the RC is a far more valuable skill because it needs to be much much higher.
If rifle users have any problem, aiming is not the issue. Plus RC adds aim, rof, range and damage values.
Main stats, whatever you do, but main stats. Secondary skills are not the solution.
Originally posted by Darth Slayer
.....but hey I suppose it's what he's paid for......:rolleyes: Callash... gets paid? since when? Last I head he worked voulentarily.
Originally posted by NeoLojik
Callash... gets paid? since when? Last I head he worked voulentarily.
He's the official storyline guy, which means he has Mike Koeberlein's previous job, which was Granite's previous job.
Anyway I dont think this is a Callash's decision... he will give his opinion to the dev team, as we are doing in this thread, but that's far from decide.
errr he said he is gonna make the final decission
hmm true, after 15 pages is hard to keep track of all words.
We will blame you then Callash! :p
Originally posted by Sleawer
hmm true, after 15 pages is hard to keep track of all words.
We will blame you then Callash! :p
Poor Callash is going to get a roasting from people no matter what he does on this. It's a shame because he's put so much effort in to the game and really doesn't deserve the treatment he'll get. :(
Shock.
FirestarXL
11-09-03, 17:51
It's interesting to note how the voting is going on the German thread, RC-PC is winning followed by RC-RCL. TC-RCL is much lower, and after reading some of the points here, I'd agree that it's a far less optimal solution than some of the ones that have already been suggested in this thread.
I tried to use google to translate the thread, but when you get sentances like "k, then I want to release you mA of the tomatoes" (http://216.239.37.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=de%7Cen&u=http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php%3Fthreadid%3D74881%26perpage%3D15%26pagenumber%3D7&prev=/language_tools), it generally seems to lose its appeal... :D
Originally posted by FirestarXL
No, TC is a dex attribute, it can be lommed into RC, but the RC is a far more valuable skill because it needs to be much much higher.
Yes I agree... my TC is barely touching the absolute minimum required.. and I have far less TC (something under 75) before imps - which means each point at that level is worth 2 if I LoM it out.
However.. if I LoM out the same amount of RC.. then I get 5 points per point of RC.. as my base RC is definitely above 100.
And like kurai mentioned... TC is even more crucial to our tech weapons than RC is. If RC is a little lower.. then you might not cap damage (such as out of a GR). But if TC is just a tad under the required amount (such as before a higher level of PA is activated) - then I cannot use the weapon. At all. That is very not good. It is a pointsink after all...
If I refuse to LoM out the extra TC I get.. then I don't get any worthwhile bonus for using the PA.
I understand that you are obliged to give a bonus to all types of spies - and this I can only agree to. So really do push for 3 types of PA.. because spies can specialise fully in 3 different types of combat.
Failing that.. please go for RC/RCL, as you originally inteded, because there are only a few pistol spies out there compared to the greater amount of rifle and droners. I know that's somewhat selfish.. but that's the majority.
If you have a dilemna here Callash.. I hate to be in your shoes when you realise your headache for the PE PA.
Eddie
Originally posted by Eddie
Failing that.. please go for RC/RCL, as you originally inteded, because there are only a few pistol spies out there compared to the greater amount of rifle and droners. I know that's somewhat selfish.. but that's the majority.
Eddie
That's right. You can not deny that the majority of combat spies use rifles, so it is stupid not to give them their own PA.
Anyone who voted for P-C/RCL must be taking the piss :p
I cannot be acused of having indepth knowledge of bonus stats etc. But wouldnt it be much easier to make the PA boost the chip implants the runner has implanted?
Originally posted by Shockwave
Poor Callash is going to get a roasting from people no matter what he does on this. It's a shame because he's put so much effort in to the game and really doesn't deserve the treatment he'll get. :(
Shock. Yeah, and its a shame that that will be what happens as he's trying his best. Im still sticking ot my guns though, P-C / R-C PA is the way to go.
Its pointless trying to patch over something thats fundementaily flawed.
Originally posted by jernau
There is an upenormous up-side to the T-C suit though Kurai. Stealth would be almost free for all capped spies.
. . .
Considering 90%+rifle spies have T-C already what this means is that 90%+ of rifle spies will have high level stealth capability.
Now that's what spies should be like.
I think you just pretty much shot down your own argument, Jernau :confused:
Spies *are* like that already.
All that is achieved is that you have transformed the armour from a nice addition to the high end of the skills path to an absolute requirement, the lack of which cripples you.
And I don't mean "cripples you compared to the highest level of PvP players" - I mean "cripples you compared to a non PA wearing Spy".
I find it hard to think of a reason that might be a good thing.
Actually Jernau has convined me. The sums add up.
If you get a moderate T-C boost (say 10 per level) and don't need the extra you can always reduce your final T-C points spend and put the points into your choice of R-C or P-C... that way everyone should be happy. Assuming that they can count that is.
So no matter who you are the armour doesn't gimp you... you just might want to go on a LoM session if you're already capped.
Having a T-C set of armour and an RCL/WPW set is definitely the way to keep the minimum number people of people dissatisfied. I'm glad I voted for that option now. :)
@kurai: I'm not sure I follow your line of thinking; sorry dude.
Originally posted by kurai
I think you just pretty much shot down your own argument, Jernau :confused:
Spies *are* like that already.
All that is achieved is that you have transformed the armour from a nice addition to the high end of the skills path to an absolute requirement, the lack of which cripples you.
And I don't mean "cripples you compared to the highest level of PvP players" - I mean "cripples you compared to a non PA wearing Spy".
I find it hard to think of a reason that might be a good thing.
My point is that stealth would only cost a spy a very small number of experience points (almost free in fact for the L1 version). Likewise all high-tech guns could be done at almost no cost.
That's not the case atm.
It costs a lot more to get T-C to 105 than to 50. That enormous saving can be ploughed into R-C.
What it would mean is that spies are unbeatable for stealth, tech-pistols and tech-rifles. A natural advantage they should have had from the start IMO rather than playing second fiddle to PEs in skills they should dominate.
Originally posted by jernau
How does that differ from needing a poker now? Very few spies have much excess DEX over their top weapon so one implant is already enough to screw us up. At least it's easier to put armour back on than it is to find a poker. It's not about losing access to your "top level" gun ...
It's about not being able to use *any* TC gun beyond a TL 26, DEX 26 Tangent Substandard Pulselaser Rifle without the PA.
If I pop a critical combat imp now, I simply have to drop down to the next lowest req gun. Perhaps 2 levels if I am unlucky...
If I pop a critical imp for the PA, I have to drop down *26* levels of gun (out of 30 TC rifles total).
But LoMing down TC restricts you in that you MUST wear your armour to access your basic guns/stealths that are so crucial to you.
Anyone in their right mind will have bare minimum TC required to do ANYTHING.
Placing that onto a armour is highly unreliable.
The main stats, not "support" stats are what needs boosted.
Eddie
If the armor adds TC, you will be dependant of that PA.
As a monk I can take my PA out, and still playing perfectly... I do that often.
As a Tank I can take my PA out, and I do very often, and still play.
As a spy I want to do the same... if my TC weapons are going to depend of that PA... what will happen if I want to wear inq1 for fire mobs in example? Or what happens if I dont want to nuke down my PA hunting?
Why wearing PA has to turn into a req to use weapons?
TC is not the way, and definetly one PA should add RC, as the mayority of spies play rifles.
Originally posted by kurai
It's not about losing access to your "top level" gun ...
It's about not being able to use *any* TC gun beyond a TL 26, DEX 26 Tangent Substandard Pulselaser Rifle without the PA.
If I pop a critical combat now, I simply have to drop down to the next lowest req gun. Perhaps 2 levels if I am unlucky...
If I pop a critical imp for the PA, I have to drop down *26* levels of gun (out of 30 TC rifles total).
a) the extra R-C you get from losing T-C should allow you get some IMP skill
b) at cap you'll have enough DEX (inc imps but not inc. PA) that you could lose 1 imp and not notice. After that you need one drug per imp - that's a tiny trade off IMO.
c) like i said above - keep a lower TL PA in your gogu for emergencies - if you work through the numbers (some are guesses I know but I wasn't over optimistic in mine) you'll see that it works out really very nicely.
Originally posted by jernau
a) the extra R-C you get from losing T-C should allow you get some IMP skill
IMP is in INT.
TC is in DEX.
Eddie
I think people should stop arguing the TC into RC/PC/etc point - because numbers haven't been furbished yet.
For all you know it adds like 6 points into TC... which wouldn't really help much if you LoM'd that out and put it in RC or PC.
Its all speculation, and worthless speculation at that.
tho' I agree with Kurai, it would be bad for tech spies to become dependant on tech armor.
Edit: In the time I took to write a fairly lengthy polemic on "TC = TeH Bad" Eddie & Sleawer both pretty much covered the main points (*again* - are people not reading the whole thread or something ?) :D
Originally posted by jernau
a) the extra R-C you get from losing T-C should allow you get some IMP skill
b) at cap you'll have enough DEX (inc imps but not inc. PA) that you could lose 1 imp and not notice. After that you need one drug per imp - that's a tiny trade off IMO.
c) like i said above - keep a lower TL PA in your gogu for emergencies - if you work through the numbers (some are guesses I know but I wasn't over optimistic in mine) you'll see that it works out really very nicely. Sorry dude- you normally talk a lot of sense and I respect most of your opinions, but in this case you simply haven't done your homework, or perhaps some of the critical ramifications haven't "clicked" for you yet.
BlackPrince
11-09-03, 18:47
Originally posted by jernau
a) the extra R-C you get from losing T-C should allow you get some IMP skill
b) at cap you'll have enough DEX (inc imps but not inc. PA) that you could lose 1 imp and not notice. After that you need one drug per imp - that's a tiny trade off IMO.
c) like i said above - keep a lower TL PA in your gogu for emergencies - if you work through the numbers (some are guesses I know but I wasn't over optimistic in mine) you'll see that it works out really very nicely.
You've never played a spy before have you?
Psyco Groupie
11-09-03, 19:11
hmmm ok we've all made valid points for the options given to us ... now wots wrong with a weaponary PA and a riggers PA ... giving one pa a rcl bonus and the other both pistol and rifle ?!
most of the other skill is nulled off by a pistol/rifle eye 3 and using both types with cyber eye 4 would no where near cap anything above tl 80
man how obvious was that ?!
someoen come up with a problem with that, please!
Originally posted by Eddie
IMP is in INT.
TC is in DEX.
Eddie
WEP is in INT though
/edit - to clarify as I wasn't clear originally :
Extra DEX into R-C mean less WEP is needed which in turn means more free INT to put into IMP. As most combat spies have >100 WEP you wouldn't need much to get to a respectable level.
At cap (which seems to be all people care about :rolleyes:) you could afford to lose one CPU and stay viable with a PA3 based design so 70 IMP would suffice to IMP all but an SF using self-boost. Less if you assumed a PPU would be available.
FirestarXL
11-09-03, 19:30
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
hmmm ok we've all made valid points for the options given to us ... now wots wrong with a weaponary PA and a riggers PA ... giving one pa a rcl bonus and the other both pistol and rifle ?!
someoen come up with a problem with that, please!
That would indeed be an ideal solution, however Callash has already said that's not possible due to some limitation meaning a PA can only have one or the other. No idea why, but that seems to be the situation. This limitation means that three PA's really are required for spies.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
You've never played a spy before have you?
I have 4 spies currently and have played them in all their forms since Beta 4 started.
I am pretty confident I know of what I speak. Are you?
If you take the time to work the numbers you'll see how great this could be.
Originally posted by Marx
I think people should stop arguing the TC into RC/PC/etc point - because numbers haven't been furbished yet.
For all you know it adds like 6 points into TC... which wouldn't really help much if you LoM'd that out and put it in RC or PC.
Its all speculation, and worthless speculation at that.
This is true - we don't have the exact numbers. He did say it would be more than the R-C equivalent though. Based on the draft specs Callash posted previously and the 3:5 ratio of xp spending either side of the 100 line though we can make educated guesses. I took those figures and rounded down a little just to be safe.
Originally posted by kurai
Sorry dude- you normally talk a lot of sense and I respect most of your opinions, but in this case you simply haven't done your homework, or perhaps some of the critical ramifications haven't "clicked" for you yet.
I'm sure I could have missed something but no-one here has yet pointed it out if that is the case.
The only problems I see are :
1) That it makes LoMing an integral part of the spy levelling process and I hate LoMs (as in I think they should be removed from the game). As LoMs seem to be here to stay, spy levelling isn't that hard and it's only going to be 10-15 pills anyway it's not a big problem IMO.
2) As Sleawer points out - we become dependant on our PA to fight. IMO this comes down to char design - if you want to always push the limits then yes you will be dependant on all the components of your design. Then again, many people are already dependant on implants and drugs to fight at peak so how is this different. If you want to play safe build your char round a lower TL version to give more headroom.
FirestarXL
11-09-03, 19:47
Originally posted by jernau
2) As Sleawer points out - we become dependant on our PA to fight. IMO this comes down to char design - if you want to always push the limits then yes you will be dependant on all the components of your design. Then again, many people are already dependant on implants and drugs to fight at peak so how is this different. If you want to play safe build your char round a lower TL version to give more headroom.
I see what you're saying, but it does fail to take into account what kurai already said - you can build a character around a setup which has the flexability to lose an implant. Obviously it would be less effective at that point, maybe equivalent to genrep SI, but enough to give you a chance in most situations.
I have already specced a setup based around an RC+16, DEX+6 armour, and all I lose without that armour, is the obliterator. Obviously the effectiveness of my weapons is reduced, but that's only natural and is not enough to make them worthless by any means.
Originally posted by jernau
WEP is in INT though
/edit - to clarify as I wasn't clear originally :
Extra DEX into R-C mean less WEP is needed which in turn means more free INT to put into IMP. As most combat spies have >100 WEP you wouldn't need much to get to a respectable level.
At cap (which seems to be all people care about :rolleyes:) you could afford to lose one CPU and stay viable with a PA3 based design so 70 IMP would suffice to IMP all but an SF using self-boost. Less if you assumed a PPU would be available.
But the amount saved is puniful, as:
Rifle Aiming: 0.4(40%) RC + 0.6(60%) WPL
So for every 3 points you put in RC, you can save 2 points in WPL.
And if you've ever played a spy and used high TL weapons, you need the damage bonus the WPL gives anyway to cap damage.
And I can poke to TL80 (TL84 with own boost) with that setup too.
Eddie
Originally posted by Psyco Groupie
hmmm ok we've all made valid points for the options given to us ... now wots wrong with a weaponary PA and a riggers PA ... giving one pa a rcl bonus and the other both pistol and rifle ?!
most of the other skill is nulled off by a pistol/rifle eye 3 and using both types with cyber eye 4 would no where near cap anything above tl 80
man how obvious was that ?!
someoen come up with a problem with that, please! About the only concrete information we have had so far from the Devs, via Callash, is that each armour can only have one main skill boost, and one subskill boost.
This is why a single suit with RC & PC won't happen, and hence why everyone is puzzled at the insistence on only two suit types being made.
Shadow Dancer
11-09-03, 20:13
Originally posted by Sleawer
As a monk I can take my PA out, and still playing perfectly... I do that often.
Not me. :p
I use my PA to lom apu to get significantly more mana by putting points into PPW. If I take off my pa, i can't run/cast. lol
I'd say getting the Obliterator for <50 DEX points is an amazing bonus.
Think of this example :
- You see on faction chat an OP is under attack
- Go to nearest GR
- Activate Obliterator
- GR in
- Wander around for a minute reporting enemy info back on faction
- Amble over to a Gogu and grab a stun-trap
- Head to the hack-room at your leisure
- Wait for stealth to fade (trying not to laugh too much)
- Drop trap as stealth dies and retreat behind the hackers
- Kill hackers (probably spies so shouldn't be hard to take 1 or 2 out at least)
- Re-stealth and fall back
Congratulations - you just saved the OP and you are haven't even lost all your SI yet. Do that on any other rig.
@eddie - like I keep saying - work the numbers. I wasn't convinced till I did it. I voted for TC-RCL initially because I am primarily a droner but having worked it through I am now convinced that if it goes this way I'll be seeing a helluva lot more of my Rifler (yes tech-rifles and FYI he's the third rifle-spy I've had so I do know what I'm doing) even though I've waited so damned long for droner PA.
Remember though - it's not "xRC = xTC" it has to be more T-C than the R-C proposed previously. If we got 20 T-C on the L4 it all goes to shit.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Not me. :p
I use my PA to lom apu to get significantly more mana by putting points into PPW. If I take off my pa, i can't run/cast. lol
Can't run cast compared to CAN'T FIRE AT ALL .. is vastly different.
Imagine, if you will, the PA gave MST..
(Cringing are we?)
Because you're pretty much buggered if you didn't wear it.
Eddie
Dribble Joy
11-09-03, 20:25
Originally posted by Mingerroo
IAlternatively, keep the two PAs as one RC and one PC, and give the droners a glove as they don't need psi while they are droning :)
Misht3h Ming faw pweseedent?
Psyco Groupie
11-09-03, 20:48
give pistol spies a glove .. they the ones that hold the gun with one hand
Shadow Dancer
11-09-03, 20:52
Originally posted by Eddie
Can't run cast compared to CAN'T FIRE AT ALL .. is vastly different.
Imagine, if you will, the PA gave MST..
(Cringing are we?)
Because you're pretty much buggered if you didn't wear it.
Eddie
It's not much different, because turret=death. And i'm always moving in battle. As a matter of fact, in an op war the other day we were fighting 3 clans one after the other. After we defeated the second clan, a kami hit me. LOL. And my pa broke. I wasn't able to run/cast, and I had to keep running since the enemy was focusing on me, so I had to yell "PSI 3 ME PSI 3 ME OR I CAN'T FIGHT" LOL.
I have a partial-solution. How about making T-C like PPW for monks and make T-C add to the power of a gun?
Originally posted by jernau
If you take the time to work the numbers you'll see how great this could be.
. . .
1) That it makes LoMing an integral part of the spy levelling process and I hate LoMs (as in I think they should be removed from the game). As LoMs seem to be here to stay, spy levelling isn't that hard and it's only going to be 10-15 pills anyway it's not a big problem IMO.
2) As Sleawer points out - we become dependant on our PA to fight. IMO this comes down to char design - if you want to always push the limits then yes you will be dependant on all the components of your design. Then again, many people are already dependant on implants and drugs to fight at peak so how is this different. If you want to play safe build your char round a lower TL version to give more headroom. lol
It's interesting that we can both take the exact same numbers and reach such diametrically opposed conclusions :D
Anyway...
Re 1) ...
Originally posted by kurai
... the XP & CR cost of the loms isn't the issue.
It's more that once lommed, that skill is *gone* until you don the armour. You can't just continue with your standard "unboosted" setup because you now have a massive hole in your config.
Imagine, for a moment that there was a "Sprinter PA" ... it gave you a bonus of 70AGL/70ATL ...
Great, one might think - I can now lom out all my AGL/ATL and spend the points elsewhere.
But ... now you GeneRep, or drop your armour in a belt, or it gets damaged to 0%...
Suddenly you have *zero* ATL/AGL, and are transformed into an insta-cripple.
Until you can get that armour on again you might as well just go play in the sewers and let /15 newbs run rings around you.
Re 2) ...
Originally posted by kurai
I wouldn't be able to use even the lowest TC rifle (a TL-17 Unlabeled Slowfire ) if my armour wasn't activated as the minimum TC requirement is 21.
If I died I'd have a minimum 75% chance of not being able to use my weapons (let alone stealth) till I was poked up again.
(6 out of my 12 imps add DEX and/or TC, and I pop a minimum of 2 each time I die)
If one takes an approach that gives you high TC anyway, regardless of the PA then it pretty much negates any "bonus" effect, as TC is purely a point-sink requirement stat, not a benefit bestowing stat. With a "stable" imp config and the PA I might end up with 145 TC. This gives me precisely zero benefit over having 110 TC. (That also assumes that the Obliterator is actually useful ... which is a whole other argument ;))
Originally posted by kurai
lol
It's interesting that we can both take the exact same numbers and reach such diametrically opposed conclusions :D
Ah, the joy of RPGs everywhere. Maybe this is a sign of Neocron achieving some kind of balance. Or maybe one of is miles off the mark ;)
Tbh it sounds like a matter of play-style though. I would be happy to play a char the way I outlined. I'm aware of it's "single-point-of-failure" nature but IMO that is far outweighed by the benefits it can afford. If you want a more "stable" setup (good way of describing it) then it's not for you I suppose.
Maybe I've just been too many PE setup threads recently and started to think "unstable" setups are normal. :p
/edit - wrt Obliterator - the point is that it gives you another powerful option.
People are saying about RC being more valuable than TC, but thats why they would give MORE TC. Because you can LoM the points equivalent (i.e. 25 TC to a capped player = roughly 5 RC) which is what we want.
People is concerned about being PA dependants once they can use it.
I really would like to know what is "slighty" meaning in this matter. To me it doesnt sound as compensating the RC loss... but even if it did, there is still the first problem.
A PA should be a bonus, not a req once you reach it.
Just as a side note, when I take out my monk PA, I still can runcast.
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