Nerf The Blacksun

[VetteroX]

Ive already had arguments here and ingame about this gun, but ill post it here as a topic so people can discuss. Heres my reasons:

Firstly IM A PISTOL PE so dont call me a whining tank.

I used the gun. I found it to be, the best pistol avalable. TOO good. I beat people, that I know are great players, almost effortlessly with this thing. Where ass with um.... ANY other gun, it requires a lot of effort.

Skill needed to aim blacksun = zero (0) not a little bit, ZERO. it almost auto aims.

Clip. Its enormous. 30 shots? giant clip, too much. put it back to 20.

Damage. Argument of ray weapons is, high close, low long. Newsflash. 99.9% of neocron pvp is point blank. So, saying it has bad long range damage doesnt help. Too much damage for tl 86.

Now, Im not saying nuke the gun to hell like they did to lib way back when. Im saying give it a small tap. 10% less damage, or slower aiming, or smaller clip, something. But as it stands, the guns too good. I dont use it, becuase I like beating people to mean something. I got no sense of accomplishment winning with this thing. It was just too lame. A lot of people will ride the train until its nerfed. I'll admit, if BS users are able to beat me a lot, Ill go BS, becase it is stay current with best stuff, or die. But, it is my honest opinion, AS A PISTOL PE, this gun is too powerful.

Now, I already know a lot of stupid people are going to make "stfu n00b" posts, and ill find some insult to throw back at them, as im not "mature" enough to ignore it, but if anyone has something constructive to say, please do.

[KidWithStick]

NERF DA NERF BAT

[YA5]

nerf da nerf threads


www.SPAMM.org

[KimmyG]

With the BS u stand a chance in PvP now were's with lib PE's are shit unless you use it none dam stop, Even then be happy with ur boost back into PvP.

[VetteroX]

uh, ive always stood a chance pvp.... I own most tanks. Lib, pain easer, judge, you name it. Ask people if you want. Just because you dont know how to, doesnt mean it cant be done. I use lib atm. Give me a tank opponent, if we have 5 matches, high chances are, ill win most, if not all 5. If hes fantasitic, I garentee, I still win 1 or 2. Lib has been boosted, its good now. pain easer has always been good. ray of god has been good for months, so thats 3 choises right there. Nobody sees it as odd the "suddenly" got good when they used blacksun? doesnt strike you that maybe the guns too good if you went from getting owned to owning with one gun?

[MjukisDjur]

so, you own everyone... be happy about it ffs :)

[Mankind]

I have to agree with this post.

The blacksun is by far the most lethal pistol (in my opinion) for a private eye. Imagine a rare ray-gun pistol 8| *shudders*

On a laggy day I get taken out easily on my tank by PEs using a BS. The only reason I beat spies using it is because they have real low hp and 2 cs bursts and they're down for the count. A PE with good resists and a 5 slot blacksun on a good computer, will probably take my tank down 99.9% of the time. They are faster, doing alot of energy damage, and like you said that gun takes pretty much absolutely no skill. But the ray of god can be JUST as good, if you are good with rifles, so that's why I loved my spy when he had it.

[Vampire222]

lol, and i get owned all the time when i use a blacksun somehow.... i is the sux

[zonk]

Originally posted by Vampire222
lol, and i get owned all the time when i use a blacksun somehow.... i is the sux

Mwahahah :) nice one :p

[Style]

im on saturn i say vet the other night duel some people, i must say it was impressive, i dunno if he is the best but deffinetly the top 3 PEs I seen. you should try fight element :)

i forget to say... narf narf narf :lol: :lol:

[Varaem]

Yeah, BSs are overpowered, but then again, all other pistols are underpowered, so if BSs were nerfed just a little, they'd still be the best pistol for PEs. Another thing, vet, is that not all pistol PE's are as good as you.. actualy, very few are. Could probably count them on one hand. For the rest of the PEs, it's nice to have a weapon that does some damage without having to drug or go rifles. Although you may beat people effortlessly with this gun, I struggle to kill tanks and monks with this gun. Spies are always weak no matter what gun you use, and PEs are about even. I think it's good that the pistol PEs at least have a chance, where between the lib nerf and the raygun boost, we all had to go rifles or judge.

I'd agree with a 20 shot clip, it's one of the weirdest things to have a gun fire two shots, yet only take up 1 ammo thing. Maybe even a 15 shot clip. But nerfing aiming takes out the point of it being a pistol. It does have a downside, as do all ray weapons though. It doesn't do locational damage, so you can't shoot legs out. It'd be a 4x better gun if it did do locational damage, but it doesn't.

[Vampire222]

libby needs another boost... imo :P

[SigmaDraconis]

Simple fix..remove the double damage, if you do the math it will put it back in line...granted the Judge DOES do more damage..the sheer accuracy and RoF of BS blows ALL pistols away...minus RoLH ofcourse..which also does double damage :P


This crap about pistols being underpowered is complete and total bullshit btw

[Varaem]

not really.. the tl93 pulselaser pistol does more damage than the blacksun, if its high slots and you hit their head.

and removing the double damage would make the BS useless.. yay, 10 damage to a tank. it'd be like nerfing rayguns instead of making them better. they'd do same damage as before the raygun change, but at long range do half as much while fusion weapons do twice as much.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by Varaem
Yeah, BSs are overpowered, but then again, all other pistols are underpowered, so if BSs were nerfed just a little, they'd still be the best pistol for PEs. Another thing, vet, is that not all pistol PE's are as good as you.. actualy, very few are. Could probably count them on one hand. For the rest of the PEs, it's nice to have a weapon that does some damage without having to drug or go rifles. Although you may beat people effortlessly with this gun, I struggle to kill tanks and monks with this gun. Spies are always weak no matter what gun you use, and PEs are about even. I think it's good that the pistol PEs at least have a chance, where between the lib nerf and the raygun boost, we all had to go rifles or judge.

I'd agree with a 20 shot clip, it's one of the weirdest things to have a gun fire two shots, yet only take up 1 ammo thing. Maybe even a 15 shot clip. But nerfing aiming takes out the point of it being a pistol. It does have a downside, as do all ray weapons though. It doesn't do locational damage, so you can't shoot legs out. It'd be a 4x better gun if it did do locational damage, but it doesn't.


damn var you left neofrag just as i got there with my PE (TOOK 40 DAJN MINUTES TO GET A MC5 POKE!) But it was me, jet and a couple of tanks having duels, I gotta say it, jet has GOD LIKE Aiming with his pain easer. But Blacksun still hurt teh shit outta him :p However seriously tho try drugging for damage boost sanctum and then useing a assault pulselaser pistol and taking on multiple opponents ^^ That rocks.

[Varaem]

:)

well the blacksun's main strengths i think is the aiming, damage and rof. Judges do more damage, but sometimes miss, but they're about even. It's just the RoF that makes the blacksun better. And the fact that it has lower reqs than a libbie, so you can pop in a pp resist chip

[Elric]

omg, first post from Vet in a while that didnt start with "I own this... i own that... I own you..."

Im impressed ;)

Yes, Vet is a great PE (also a pain in the ass at times too, but its been a while, he may have improved :p) but not everyone is as drug reliant and has spent so much time fiddling every single point available with imps and drug numbers all taken into account and so on... he's spent his entire NC time fiddling to find the "perfect" setups nad to a certain extent has succeeded (success in the fact that he uses drugs heavily [or at least last time i heard], not everyone would fit that taste). Anywasy, I digress.. He has a very good point.

BS APPEARS to be way overpowered in some players hands. Its a very difficult thing to judge to be honest. Vet can beat most people with any gun so saying that a BS is overpowered in his opiunion, may not be the same opinion as someone who is not as heavily PvP geared.

Someoen needs to take a very objective look at the gun before any tweaking is done (aka, the sledgehammer method :rolleyes:)

Vet, go on IRC and talk to Lupus. Lupis is damn good at what he does, you two should be able to figure it out between you :)

[SigmaDraconis]

Useless? aiming and RoF on that gun make it far from useless even at normal damage...i can drop most average PE's using BS before going below 90% hp...Lib takes me much longer mainly because i have to move differently to get good locks and i also lose the lock more often, not to mention being tech my RoF SUCKS and damage isnt even capped, Judge..i havnt used much but even with gimped stats i like it...blows lib damage away and only slightly harder to use. Just takes some time to get used to.

[Varaem]

If you reduce any gun's damage by 50%, the lower tl version will be better. Easier to cap too, so therefore the BS would be useless.

Edit:
By the way, what setup are you using, sigma?
I cap lib damage, get 340 shots / min, cap a black sun (ok, 3 shots / min and 2% damage off, but it isnt noticable), and I can use a fully capped judge with only a single white flash.. and i still have great resists.

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by Varaem
If you reduce any gun's damage by 50%, the lower tl version will be better. Easier to cap too, so therefore the BS would be useless.


I dont get what yur saying? by halvign the BS damage the Sunray will be better?? o.0

Anyway i just have a shitty lib :P

[Varaem]

yeah... the sunray would be better than the BS if you halved the BS damage. if you halved all raygun pistol damage, then plasma pistols would be better in every way and everyone would flock to the judge again.. or lib..

and i use a 1 slot explosive lib as a 2ndary weapon.. also a unlabelled plasma cannon. I actually got a smurf down to about 2/3 health with the UPC before dying.. lol

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by Varaem
yeah... the sunray would be better than the BS if you halved the BS damage. if you halved all raygun pistol damage, then plasma pistols would be better in every way and everyone would flock to the judge again.. or lib..

and i use a 1 slot explosive lib as a 2ndary weapon.. also a unlabelled plasma cannon. I actually got a smurf down to about 2/3 health with the UPC before dying.. lol

Well i meant ALL Ray weapons....its already been done to RGC....only fair to do it to the other classes aswell. And yes it would be practical if people flocked to Lib and Judge then..they are higher TL....BS would still be used tho by PE's like me who r tech and dont like to drug into Judge.

[Varaem]

Then why is the Tangent Assault Pulselaser Pistol higher TL than the liberator, yet worse in every way except maybe accuracy?

Edit: And the RGCs aren't really rayguns.. they're meant for long range, yet, they're used closerange and have a huge splash, and because its the highest damaging HC weapon, it would do waaaay too much damage. In the case of rifles and pistols, rayguns aren't the best weapons, pulse lasers are....... even though they're not. They'd be overpowered if say, the ray of last hope was a tl115 gun.

[RuButt]

dont nerf blacksun - i find it to be utter crap.



seriously u need it like artifact or something for it to be good?


c'mon!

a 4 slotted TPC can do close to the damage of a CS!!

NERF ALL HIGH TL NON RARE WEAPONS!!!!

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by Varaem
Then why is the Tangent Assault Pulselaser Pistol higher TL than the liberator, yet worse in every way except maybe accuracy?

Edit: And the RGCs aren't really rayguns.. they're meant for long range, yet, they're used closerange and have a huge splash, and because its the highest damaging HC weapon, it would do waaaay too much damage. In the case of rifles and pistols, rayguns aren't the best weapons, pulse lasers are....... even though they're not. They'd be overpowered if say, the ray of last hope was a tl115 gun.

Well its non rare for one (the TAP) so worse stats.and yet again..a linear balance issue :P KK has loads of em...


RGC isnt a raygun..lets review the first 2 letters of the acronym hmm :P And it does not do insane damage...mal and indeed moonstriker do more damage simply because the DB and all RGC's do more radius..while the other 2 do more point damage, the REAL shit part is..the splash isnt MUCH larger then mal :(

[Varaem]

what i meant is, it's not a true raygun. it is , but the way it's used is different from the ray of last hope and ray of god. and I'm saying it would do a lot of damage if it had its damage boosted along with rifles and pistols, but you said it hasn't.

[DigestiveBiscui]

If you dont like the BS....dont use it

<--- Judge man, tank pwnage ;)

[KramerTheWeird]

Damage wise, judge and tangent assualt pulselaser pistol outdamge over time the black sun, with head shots. Granted you hit all the shots. Blacksun requires little effort compared to these pistols to aim and hit with and is easier to bring to cap, therefore making it much more ideal. If just judge and wyatt earp had their damage increased there would be a balance achieved and not make BS the only option.

[Varaem]

yay kramer!

Oh.. make a rare nailgun, so poison is a viable weapon besides with monks. That'd be neat.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by KramerTheWeird
Damage wise, judge and tangent assualt pulselaser pistol outdamge over time the black sun, with head shots. Granted you hit all the shots. Blacksun requires little effort compared to these pistols to aim and hit with and is easier to bring to cap, therefore making it much more ideal. If just judge and wyatt earp had their damage increased there would be a balance achieved and not make BS the only option.

that is so true ^^

Ive got a 5 slot ultimated tangent assault pulselaser, spent 600k on the ultima and had 96 of the fuckin pistols built to get 5 slots o_O! But the gun's sweet ^^ Hell my non ultimated 4 slotter is almost as good lol. When dueling or if im gonna be solo fighting more than 1 person I always drug up for damage boost sanct aswell :) So more extra damage. I still need 5 dex/7 CON to cap out my PE but he does have a SE in ^^

[QuantumDelta]

@ Vet - Blacksun is the CS of Pistols, compare the other pistols to BS as you would TPC to CS.


@ Sigma.
If you were to shoot at me, at point blank range with MaleDiction/Doom Beamer/Moon Striker, the right modded doom beamer, would do the most damage.

The Doom Beamer is one of the most powerful weapons in the game, however, since AoE Weapons are traditionally long range bombardment weapons, people who haven't been experienced with Rayguns before they were changed to do damage with distance (..heh, noobs) wouldn't know that Doom Beamer actually REALLY Fucking hurts.

Just because RGCs (Comparatively) r teh sux0r, doesn't mean you can nerf Raygun Pistols.
Look at the RoG, it's the best Rifle Rare in the game, Imo.


As for Pistols Being underpowered, it depends on your style, If you aren't twitch, then the Liberator is a pretty good weapon, however, Pistols are not as good a group of aiming weapons as they were intended to be, I've seen CS, hit more reliably (FAR MORE) than anything a Liberator user could ever hope to do (Meaning, 100%, every burst hit, although I'm not sure how much out of every burst since the client shows all incoming fire as always a hit, but, a significant amount, 3 out of the burst typically).

Fenyx is right, as well, the new pulse laser pistols are, very slightly, better than BS.

[SigmaDraconis]

Being PE..yea DB would do most damage to you...against monks spies and tanks moonstriker will outdamage by far, PE's are extremely resilient to pierce and force making the MS much less effective....

And because RGC got halved..i think doing the same to all ray weapons and readjusting them all is quite fair...


As for Pulse being better then BS...i feel only because of aiming..that they BS is still ever so slighly more effective for most people. Ofcourse if you already have impeccable aiming the higher RoF and damage output from pulse makes all the difference.

And yes CS does hit far more then lib..i didnt believe it as a tank but PEs lie not..the lib tends to miss for what appears to be..no apparent reason. The one advantage the lib DOES have is the fact that IF you canget a semi solid stream of bullets...it does tremendous amounts of damage because of the continuous burst bonus...because of this i tend to jump people with lib to get in a good quick half clip until they realise whats happned and start dodging properly..then switch to BS...ill use Judge on occassion to finish them off if the battle is getting close.

[___T-X____]

why dont u nerf everything, so that everyone can have a crap weopon ?

Im a tank btw

I sold an ultimated 4 slot rp97 on uranus, its fucking pwns

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
As for Pulse being better then BS...i feel only because of aiming..that they BS is still ever so slighly more effective for most people. Ofcourse if you already have impeccable aiming the higher RoF and damage output from pulse makes all the difference.


Hehe i disagree, With the blacksun i tend to actually shoot the ground more, I dunno, the way it shoots i just always tend to be targetting the opponent between shots then just as it shoots i lose the lock o_O

But with my pulselaser because its full fuckin auto with a bigger clip and same ROF than a lib i seem to get a helluva lot more hits in on my target.

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by \\Fényx//
I dunno, the way it shoots i just always tend to be targetting the opponent between shots then just as it shoots i lose the lock o_O



As do I and it still managed to hit more for me then Judge does lolz...and THAT is exactly why i think it is ever so slightly better then the pulses


BTW what is RoF cap on lib..im tech, so not very likly to ever see it heh

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
As do I and it still managed to hit more for me then Judge does lolz...and THAT is exactly why i think it is ever so slightly better then the pulses


BTW what is RoF cap on lib..im tech, so not very likly to ever see it heh


im at work atm but off the top of me head its either 340 or 370. cant remember, one of those 2 tho.

[QuantumDelta]

Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
Being PE..yea DB would do most damage to you...against monks spies and tanks moonstriker will outdamage by far, PE's are extremely resilient to pierce and force making the MS much less effective....
Aye, however, with QD, you have to realise, the same as vet, almost all of my resists are capped, as in, the full 76% damage resist AND, the Shelter/Blessed Deflector on top. ;)

DB = More Powerful, than the other two.
Or, at least, it used to be.... EMS.RU Says differently, I didn't feel the difference in recent combat (then again it's kinda hard to tell during battle), I'll have to test, properly... EMS.RU Says it's very slightly weaker.
You should probably also take into consideration that
A) Malediction isn't useless. ---- All Fusion Rifles (IMO Of course) Are pathetic, and Fusion Pistols, are a joke.
B) MoonStriker is great. --- Tangent Mini-Rocket Launcher = teh sux. Rifles don't even have a rocket launcher...



And because RGC got halved..i think doing the same to all ray weapons and readjusting them all is quite fair...
You're still looking at the game from a Tanks perspective...
Tanks have Plasma, PEs and Spies have Rays.
There's almost no difference between RoG and CS Damage over a period of time.
Blacksun is less powerful than RoG. *Shrug*





As for Pulse being better then BS...i feel only because of aiming..that they BS is still ever so slighly more effective for most people. Ofcourse if you already have impeccable aiming the higher RoF and damage output from pulse makes all the difference.
I felt it was the RoF, the damage difference, and the aiming, is hardly noticable....
Probably why I prefer Pulse to Blacksun, not that it bothers me much....since I have DEX 93 in my setup normally...heh



And yes CS does hit far more then lib..i didnt believe it as a tank but PEs lie not..the lib tends to miss for what appears to be..no apparent reason.
:p I don't make shit up...

The one advantage the lib DOES have is the fact that IF you canget a semi solid stream of bullets...it does tremendous amounts of damage because of the continuous burst bonus...
This is very true, this is why I use Liberator on People who cannot dodge, and People who need to stand still to cast, it's almost possible to kill a well configured PPU with a Liberator and Damage Boost, so long as they're Para'd/not moving.



because of this i tend to jump people with lib to get in a good quick half clip until they realise whats happned and start dodging properly..then switch to BS...ill use Judge on occassion to finish them off if the battle is getting close. [/B]

Aye, where ever I can get away with it, I use Lib, the problem is, traditional dueling doesn't allow Liberator to shine.

I would love to use Plasma, Ryker Napalm, infact (not judge...judge stinky for setups), but, TBH They suck......so badly it's unbelievable...

If, Raygun Pistols/Rifles get a nerf, first love's damage needs to be upped (as does EPR), and so does Judge and Ryker Napalm.
To bring their damage inline with Cursed Soul.
Only fair, after all.



Edit;
Liberator's RoF Cap is 370.
Most good Tech-Pistol PEs with a semi-decent Lib will have optimum RoF of 340.
Don't need more than 340.....

[SigmaDraconis]

Sry for double post....but Id like to make somethign clear

I dont wish to nerf the BS
id rather see the issues with other pistols fixed (none of the problems are damage related so upping damage or other stats is NOT what i want..Pistols are general just fine compared to other weapons) Mainly the libs missing for no real reason..random shots not impacting basically..and the Judge should be burst 3 most definatly..possibly 4...it NEEDS the burst bonus in there to be fair :P

Id also like to see RGC damage revamped :P now that the CCaves r fixed i havnt found one place the DB is better then Mal or MS :(

[QuantumDelta]

Ehh, I checked on ems.ru, it seems DB isn't better anymore.... which is a damn shame, it's my fave cannon.

Damage on DB does need to be upped, about 1.5x what it is now...

Liberator's misses are annoying, for no good reason, you can even be at point blank range, with neither you or your target moving and still miss, most of the time 1 out of the 4 shots....


Edit;
Btw, Giving Judge a burst bonus would probably hurt it more than anything, since, judge itself, is not a burst weapon, has been given damage values of a normal weapon, with PISTOL 20% burst bonus and only 3 bullets hitting, it would do the same/less damage than Liberator..heh but it'd be energy on top -_-

[Rizzy]

If, Raygun Pistols/Rifles get a nerf, first love's damage needs to be upped (as does EPR), and so does Judge and Ryker Napalm.
To bring their damage inline with Cursed Soul.


Please explain why a judge that allows you to run very fast and aims a bit faster should do the same damage as a gun that incapacitates your speed and has aiming that is not so special. Or was that comment just irony because someone asked the raygun rifles/pistols to be in balance to the cannons.

EDIT: Doombeamer has been worse then malediction and MS for as long as i can remember, it has had worse damage then a mal for abouta year now (I remember levelling with them and being disappointed with the DB). A damage boost on the doom beamer is most likely happening as lupus is making weapon damage based on techlevel of the gun moreso then the type of gun. This means I think doombeamer will outperfom malediction and the moonstriker. Fl will probably get a boost too and probably the slasher/executioner/beam of hell. Im hesitant to say the RoLH will get a boost as it owns already :)

[QuantumDelta]

Indeed it was :P

[Original monk]

the nerf threads start again, watch out if ya ask for slight nerfs like 10% or so, ya know KK cant nerf 10%, they yust NERF it to DEAD and then up it a littlebit. I suggest boost every other weapon in the game except the blacksun :P (and the lib and the rarespells) and give tanks a decent weapon, and give spy PA riflecombat instead of weaponlore and and and and and ...

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Aye, however, with QD, you have to realise, the same as vet, almost all of my resists are capped, as in, the full 76% damage resist AND, the Shelter/Blessed Deflector on top. ;)

DB = More Powerful, than the other two.
Or, at least, it used to be.... EMS.RU Says differently, I didn't feel the difference in recent combat (then again it's kinda hard to tell during battle), I'll have to test, properly... EMS.RU Says it's very slightly weaker.
You should probably also take into consideration that
A) Malediction isn't useless. ---- All Fusion Rifles (IMO Of course) Are pathetic, and Fusion Pistols, are a joke.
B) MoonStriker is great. --- Tangent Mini-Rocket Launcher = teh sux. Rifles don't even have a rocket launcher...

Dont get me wrong DB does do more damage in its spread..but mal does much more point damage..making it more useful PvP and naturally MS is better then Mal..As for your resist uh i unno this triggered something in my head thats best said when i can say it properly (ie AFTER i get some rest form my 30 hour NC spree)Basically i think i mean (NOTE: i THINK) That because of the PEs ability to cap FOR and get damn good resists in energy with shelter that Mal is weak vs you..the cap FOR highly reduces the damage doen from a typically modded MS compared to other classes...leaving the DB with concentrated amounts of pure energy to sneak by your resists and either fire or xray..which tend to be the PEs weakest fields.

Mal is by far the most effective of the Fusion variety..tho rifles r nice for WB hunting as a PE when u havnt got a pain easer. And MS is the uberest monk killer next to Lib (details later)


Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You're still looking at the game from a Tanks perspective...
Tanks have Plasma, PEs and Spies have Rays.
There's almost no difference between RoG and CS Damage over a period of time.
Blacksun is less powerful than RoG. *Shrug*

Not really..im a Pistol PE now lol, granted the current Ray weapons put them on Par with the CS when comparing to other pistols. Unfortunatly DoT doesnt work..esspeccially against an APU Judge or Lib is better..simply because they do damage faster. Id say RoLH is the CS of DEX because albiet overpowered the BS's main strengths lie everywhere BUT in its damage. wait..thats seems redundant..apologies to follow..




Originally posted by QuantumDelta

I felt it was the RoF, the damage difference, and the aiming, is hardly noticable....
Probably why I prefer Pulse to Blacksun, not that it bothers me much....since I have DEX 93 in my setup normally...heh

I find the aiming of BS insane..otherwise yes the differences are very slim. But when dealing with yur AVERAGE player..the aiming helps tremendously..with more experienced PvPers who can aim well no matter the gun, the differences r moot, so logically going for higher damage output/speed with pulse makes sense.




Originally posted by QuantumDelta
:p I don't make shit up...

Not entirly true...I beleive you once said CS aims much faster then lib..which it doesnt.. :P


Originally posted by QuantumDelta

This is very true, this is why I use Liberator on People who cannot dodge, and People who need to stand still to cast, it's almost possible to kill a well configured PPU with a Liberator and Damage Boost, so long as they're Para'd/not moving....

Indeed, Lib is a bonified monkeh killer..with PC3 buff getting round 340 RoF i almost completely negate a capped holy heal, which means anyone else firing at him gets their damage going straight through..this is without a damage boost btw. If it hits..it will kill you..lolz :P




Originally posted by QuantumDelta

Aye, where ever I can get away with it, I use Lib, the problem is, traditional dueling doesn't allow Liberator to shine.

I would love to use Plasma, Ryker Napalm, infact (not judge...judge stinky for setups), but, TBH They suck......so badly it's unbelievable...

If, Raygun Pistols/Rifles get a nerf, first love's damage needs to be upped (as does EPR), and so does Judge and Ryker Napalm.
To bring their damage inline with Cursed Soul.
Only fair, after all.

nah Judge damage is fine..just make it burst!!! Honestly FL tho is quite pathetic for its TL. :( As for using Judge i would when PE PA comes out if its DEX based like spy PA...only problem is i need +4 DEX...that requires 100 DEX as per spy PA..so its redundantly useless...and im strongly against drugs :P and really dont wanna swap out an imp for EBC2/3 and use PA 1. Hopefully..considering PE caps low DEX...that they will adjust the PA's accordingly...who knows tho it coudl add INT and sTR for all we know lol




Originally posted by QuantumDelta

Edit;
Liberator's RoF Cap is 370.
Most good Tech-Pistol PEs with a semi-decent Lib will have optimum RoF of 340.
Don't need more than 340.....

Well generally my setup sacrifices offensive abilities for defenses.. i get about 280 RoF unbuffed :\ still quite lethal tho considering i dont even cap damage lol !

One quick question..do you use EBC2? o.0 wierd i know just asking :P


Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Btw, Giving Judge a burst bonus would probably hurt it more than anything, since, judge itself, is not a burst weapon, has been given damage values of a normal weapon, with PISTOL 20% burst bonus and only 3 bullets hitting, it would do the same/less damage than Liberator..heh but it'd be energy on top -_-

I dont get how it could hurt..make it burst 4 shots..keep damage the same..its now getting the 28% bonus..thats more damage and because of the 4 shot burst im assuming it would tend to track and aim more like CS and FL o.0



PS If somethign makes no sense..dont call me a dumbfuck jerk off moron etc etc i need sleep and ill gladly clarify things sometime in the near future..

PPS how do u like my improved ub3rized quoting skillz QD? :P

[QuantumDelta]

I gotta go out for an hour or two, nice post...

My implant setup is no mystery, I've posted it a few times and a lot of people know it...

EXP Bal3
SF
PP Resistor
Dist3
Heart - Whatever.
EXP Reflex 4
Pistol Eye 3.

:)

My Lib RoF is about 335 I think..
You don't, tbch, need more than 320...... there's a bug with lib after RoF 340 anyways :P
More about that later
*runs*

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I gotta go out for an hour or two, nice post...

My implant setup is no mystery, I've posted it a few times and a lot of people know it...

EXP Bal3
SF
PP Resistor
Dist3
Heart - Whatever.
EXP Reflex 4
Pistol Eye 3.

:)

My Lib RoF is about 335 I think..
You don't, tbch, need more than 320...... there's a bug with lib after RoF 340 anyways :P
More about that later
*runs*

Hmmz ive got:

SF
SA
Distance3
Moto (For now)
Filter 2
PC3 eye
EXP Reflex 4

I need 5 DEX to cap and need the moto in so that I dont need drugs to get me SA working.

I will either chuck in a distance 2 or Exp ball 3 once ive capped out my DEX.

Thing is how the fuck do I cap ut my CON o_O the CON XP is like the suckiest ever considering its level, jesus i go thru the CRP caves with no armour on running around like a headless chicken getting shot to shit and i get maybe 100k CON a run IF THAT ! o_O

[ericdraven]

Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Thing is how the fuck do I cap ut my CON o_O the CON XP is like the suckiest ever considering its level, jesus i go thru the CRP caves with no armour on running around like a headless chicken getting shot to shit and i get maybe 100k CON a run IF THAT ! o_O

I capped the last five CON levels quite quickly with fighting DoY Units.. they give a huge amount of XP.. about 10-20k per SHOT, IIRC.. :)

[Sleawer]

What heart is "whatever" QD?

[Stigmata]

as in, the full 76% damage resist AND, the Shelter/Blessed Deflector on top.

hmm i find it hard to believe you cap the full 76% damage resist in all as a PE.

Andy

[Shadow Dancer]

Maybe instead of nerfing it you could increase it's TL to a "justifiable" level for it's power?

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by stigmata
hmm i find it hard to believe you cap the full 76% damage resist in all as a PE.

Andy

Fire energy force. Xray you can get pretty high cause of the shelter/psiarmour/resist. Poison's only ever gonna be medium unless you take some base poison resist aswell as wearing medium belt and VK :)

[Shadow Dancer]

You don't NEED to cap poison resist. Capping it is like having holy deflector against an aggie, overkill!

[\\Fényx//]

I think the MAIN advantage of the blacksun compared to some other pistols and certainly cannons is the fact that there is no stamina hit for firing it, meaning that my stamina on my PE lasts 3 times as long as my tank's without having to bother using stam boosters.

[Sinead O'Connor]

jesus christ, quit your bitching. pe's get some love, and people start complaining.

why don't we add more drug flash to the cloak. afterall, we can't have a patch without smashing the spy and nerfing the PE again.

hey look, we can all be ppu baby sitters watching our tank buddies. OH BOY!

:rolleyes:

[QuantumDelta]

err, oops....of course, not poison...heh, my bad.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
err, oops....of course, not poison...heh, my bad.


ONOZ

QD has told us all of his weakness, QUICK get him !!!!

[QuantumDelta]

As Arc said you don't need to cap poison :p

Any APU that uses Poison on me will be dead before I die, if I even die.... o_O

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
As Arc said you don't need to cap poison :p

Any APU that uses Poison on me will be dead before I die, if I even die.... o_O


U ever use damage boost sanct ? My PE's a crazy drug whore, whenever Im gonna charge 2+ people on my own I always chug down 2x detrosol so i can use TL 41 dam boost sanct. Some PE's use si sheild aswell. now what i gotta ask about that is do you actually have any kind of ''trade'' under INT ? or like base 75 Lore and base 110 psi use of something ? o_O I have 50 psi use and base 93 hack and 75 lore base on my PE
Uh enought TC so that with +10 from SF and SA my T-C is enough for my assault pulselaser pistol :) I cap damage on my lib with PC1 i think and with PC3 i spank the damage and ROF of a pulselaser ^^

[QuantumDelta]

I use haz/heat/br3 :p
PSI Shield sometimes.

PEs can't really cap those resists and hope to have a respectable hp/runspeed without the haz/heat/br3 :P

I have
78 PSU
103 WEP (With Boosts/imps)
80 IMP. :P

I'm not hinting at anymore of my setup :P

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I use haz/heat/br3 :p
PSI Shield sometimes.

PEs can't really cap those resists and hope to have a respectable hp/runspeed without the haz/heat/br3 :P

I have
78 PSU
103 WEP (With Boosts/imps)
80 IMP. :P

I'm not hinting at anymore of my setup :P


hmmz. I was thinking it was something around there. I was considering just taking pure psi use after 75 lore, instead i took hacking so i can hack belts. But with 75 lore and around 110 psi use would that add to my total psi pool ?? be cause at a psi pool of like 80 a psi sheild just aint worth it o_O

[QuantumDelta]

I have 99 with Destrol Forte running.

That'll be 150 + with the Crahn Epic Glove mind you ;)

PSU and PPU high enough to runcast a zero slot constructed TL3 Heal :P

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I have 99 with Destrol Forte running.

That'll be 150 + with the Crahn Epic Glove mind you ;)

PSU and PPU high enough to runcast a zero slot constructed TL3 Heal :P

I can run cast my 0 slot TL3 heal already o_O

[QuantumDelta]

Pure run?
Go try it o_O

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Pure run?
Go try it o_O

nah not pure running in a straight line, I can cast it if I run in a circle tho, like if im strafing around someone in a fight for example, hell ill fuckin prove it to u when i get in from work o_O DaFlex, Raykor and some others have seen me do and were pissed their spy's couldnt :P Ive pulled it off in fights before aswell

[QuantumDelta]

Me too, but it's normally a very, very slick stagger cast when PEs runcast heal ;)

[hinch]

my pe cant run cast the heal even though its a 4 slotter :eek: put then i have minium ppu reqs and everything else in ppw with - psu

[Drake6k]

blacksun isnt over powered. The other pistols just suck greatly.
It never does more than like 22 damage a hit to someone. (first shot) You all should know by now its better to increase others than nerf things.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by Drake6k
blacksun isnt over powered. The other pistols just suck greatly.
It never does more than like 22 damage a hit to someone. (first shot) You all should know by now its better to increase others than nerf things.


aww nuoooo dwakey they gons and nurfed your sig aswell :(

[kurai]

Originally posted by Mankind
Imagine a rare ray-gun pistol 8| *shudders*
Apart from the Ray of Last Hope, presumably ? :D

But humour aside, I guess you meant useable by PEs because of your later comment about spies.

Vet does have a point - the Blacksun is a *little* (but only a little) overpowered right now.
It's mainly because of the combination of low aiming time and large ammo clip, almost zero misses and it's (relatively) easily achievable capped damage and rate of fire.
(Oh - and of course there's the lack of stamina hit, because it's an energy weapon)

This puts it's true (accounting for reload pause and reticle re-lock) damage per minute somewhat out of whack with the other pistols near it's level.

Each element on it's own only makes a minor difference, but when combined it means the pistol has a disproportionate effect for it's tech level and requirements.

A minor tweak to any one of the four areas would likely bring it back into line.
(Or, as has been mentioned ... bring the other pistols into line with it ... a half way measure between the two would seem most fair. Lupus may even be working on this as we speak :D)

[Duder]

Originally posted by Drake6k
blacksun isnt over powered. The other pistols just suck greatly.
It never does more than like 22 damage a hit to someone. (first shot) You all should know by now its better to increase others than nerf things.


Agreed, boost the other crap instead....

[QuantumDelta]

errrrrrrrr
Most tech pistol PEs need a 4 slot Blacksun (generally) to be useful with it......

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
errrrrrrrr
Most tech pistol PEs need a 4 slot Blacksun (generally) to be useful with it......

my blacksuns 4 slot ultimate ^^ and me assault pulselaser's 5 slot ultimated ^^ made 96 of teh fuckers to get 5 slots tho rofl, and the ultima cost my tank 600k total :lol::lol::lol:

[Shadow Dancer]

I don't think blacksun is too overpowered.



But I just wanna say that the statement "no nerf, boost other stuff" has it's limits.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I don't think blacksun is too overpowered.



But I just wanna say that the statement "no nerf, boost other stuff" has it's limits.



Only thing you wanna ever hear is nerf PPU's and boost APU' o_O

or

boost poison and nerf the CS or something as irellevant as that :D :p

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Only thing you wanna ever hear is nerf PPU's and boost APU' o_O



I'm not going to get into ppus, but who's not in favor of boosting their own class?



Originally posted by \\Fényx//

boost poison and nerf the CS or something as irellevant as that :D :p


I don't think the cs needs nerfage and never said that. :p

[VetteroX]

Well, most of the comments were inteligent, im surprised. O conner... I stated, PEs dont need an insanely overpowered weapon to win, they already can win. Too many of you judge overpowered as too much damage. The BS damage is so bad (although its still damn good for tl 86) its the combined factor of damgie, ISANELY easy to aim (my biggest gripe) and giant clip. Heres my suggestion:

reduce clip to 15, maximum 20, although i think 15 is better, and reduce aiming speed by 15%. In this way, its still a good weapon, but people will have to actually... oh say... TRY to aim and hit people, instead of having auto aim, and might have to reload a whole omg.. THREE times during a match to beat a strong opponent.

Vaream, You are good. Try using liberator, take a few days to get used to it. It took me a few days, then i got really good with it. blacksun is the easy road, and the way to constantly get better it to challenge yourself.

Im not a drug fiend... I use one drug, desterole forte, and nothing else. when im in the field, I use no drug, as I would rater take like 5% more damage from not being able to cast a lvl 40 resit spell then be dizzy in a fight.

I dont think pes get enough loving, and what ive heard is the PE PA from a freind makes me really angry... i dunno if i can say the bonuses and negs here, but if it satys as it is, I dont think ill use it because the negative is a real kick in the balls :( PEs need something cool, but BS isnt the answer, its TOO powerful, and needs a nerf tap, im not asking for the nuklear tipped sledge hammer.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by VetteroX
Well, most of the comments were inteligent, im surprised. O conner... I stated, PEs dont need an insanely overpowered weapon to win, they already can win. Too many of you judge overpowered as too much damage. The BS damage is so bad (although its still damn good for tl 86) its the combined factor of damgie, ISANELY easy to aim (my biggest gripe) and giant clip. Heres my suggestion:

reduce clip to 15, maximum 20, although i think 15 is better, and reduce aiming speed by 15%. In this way, its still a good weapon, but people will have to actually... oh say... TRY to aim and hit people, instead of having auto aim, and might have to reload a whole omg.. THREE times during a match to beat a strong opponent.

Vaream, You are good. Try using liberator, take a few days to get used to it. It took me a few days, then i got really good with it. blacksun is the easy road, and the way to constantly get better it to challenge yourself.

Im not a drug fiend... I use one drug, desterole forte, and nothing else. when im in the field, I use no drug, as I would rater take like 5% more damage from not being able to cast a lvl 40 resit spell then be dizzy in a fight.

I dont think pes get enough loving, and what ive heard is the PE PA from a freind makes me really angry... i dunno if i can say the bonuses and negs here, but if it satys as it is, I dont think ill use it because the negative is a real kick in the balls :( PEs need something cool, but BS isnt the answer, its TOO powerful, and needs a nerf tap, im not asking for the nuklear tipped sledge hammer.

Try using a pulselaser pistol, some enemies dont know what the fuck hit em mainly because it ''sounds'' like its firing faster than a full auto lib rofl, plus if you have damn good aiming yourself the gun can seriously own. :)

However one thing is that there is absolutely no stamina burn on some of the pistols, now PE's can use BQ Chest so have 160/180 stamina, thats alot considering the only burn to it is your running and jumping, basically freeing up 1 or 2 spaces in your QB as theres no need for stam boosters

Maybe nerf the Aim a bit, shouldnt nerf the damage AND the aim... yet

The clip size is huge considering ive never had to reload in a fight against anything other than a well specced tank

[SigmaDraconis]

Originally posted by VetteroX
Well, most of the comments were inteligent, im surprised. O conner... I stated, PEs dont need an insanely overpowered weapon to win, they already can win. Too many of you judge overpowered as too much damage. The BS damage is so bad (although its still damn good for tl 86) its the combined factor of damgie, ISANELY easy to aim (my biggest gripe) and giant clip.

Agreed





Originally posted by VetteroX

reduce clip to 15, maximum 20, although i think 15 is better, and reduce aiming speed by 15%. In this way, its still a good weapon, but people will have to actually... oh say... TRY to aim and hit people, instead of having auto aim, and might have to reload a whole omg.. THREE times during a match to beat a strong opponent.

well 15% woo that would make it aim like a first luv on a PE with 30 WEP :\

its not the aiming SPEED its the fact that the thing will hit atleast one stream with a nearly full open reticle....


Originally posted by VetteroX

Vaream, You are good. Try using liberator, take a few days to get used to it. It took me a few days, then i got really good with it. blacksun is the easy road, and the way to constantly get better it to challenge yourself.

Lib is pretty good...i only use blacksun in crowded places...because the third person extremely hampers my aim when walls and pipes liek to knock the camera into oddd places when fighting in oh say sewers cellars PP1.everywhere else i use lib or judge.


Originally posted by VetteroX

Im not a drug fiend... I use one drug, desterole forte, and nothing else. when im in the field, I use no drug, as I would rater take like 5% more damage from not being able to cast a lvl 40 resit spell then be dizzy in a fight.

Call me nub..but i hate drugs...the only one i EVER use is Redflash to get up to judge :)


Originally posted by VetteroX

I dont think pes get enough loving, and what ive heard is the PE PA from a freind makes me really angry... i dunno if i can say the bonuses and negs here, but if it satys as it is, I dont think ill use it because the negative is a real kick in the balls :( PEs need something cool, but BS isnt the answer, its TOO powerful, and needs a nerf tap, im not asking for the nuklear tipped sledge hammer. eek im scared now..I was hoping itd be similar to spy PA...with lower bonuses and lower reqs....getting me into stealth 2 and Judge without druggies :D



OH i see how u have 93 DEX now..i was assuming u had an SA ^^

[QuantumDelta]

Everyone assumes I have the best shit :p

You don't need MC5s to be uber.
However I would like to point out that all the people who are normally rated over me, do have MC5s ;)

[der Ed]

Originally posted by VetteroX
Damage. Argument of ray weapons is, high close, low long. Newsflash. 99.9% of neocron pvp is point blank. So, saying it has bad long range damage doesnt help. Too much damage for tl 86.


Just stay away then.

I don't complain that I get wasted by a melee-tank if I come close.
I don't complain that I get wasted if I run across the map directly to a sniper, using no cover.

If a weapon has a certain advantage, try to avoid that.


Reducing (certain) pistols damage 'cause most of the PvP is close-combat is wrong. Players need to learn that combat also happens on distance. That's why we have shortrange and longrange weapons, snipers and droners. Closecombat-attackers should own close combat (pistol, melee), mid in mid (cannon, rifles, monks), far in far (snipers, drones). There's no reason to complain if you can't win with a far range weapon against at close range weapon.
Did you ever attack a pistol PE on distance? That really pisses them off ..

[mdares]

i agree with fenix... i didnt really know wut the gripe wus wit hte BS until i tested one... my god... its like just move your cursor over the target and just run and hold down your mouse button... seriously no need to aim... and unlike libby it doesnt eat STA at all... (and for a full speed capped PE thats a lot...)

the dmg however is (i think at this point) ok for its class; clip size MIGHT need to be decreased by thats not too important..

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by mdares
i agree with fenix...


thats not allowed.... nobodyu does that... ever o.O

[Nixon]

Originally posted by \\Fényx//
thats not allowed.... nobodyu does that... ever o.O

I agree.

[Scikar]

Just a little thing to point out - all those people saying a headshot with another weapon is more powerful, that's irrelevant, because to kill someone you still have to get through the leg damage at the end, whereas rayguns and raypistols damage all 3 areas evenly. But basically the only disadvantage to BS is you can't do a leg shot. And that's it.

[Shadow Dancer]

Originally posted by Scikar
Just a little thing to point out - all those people saying a headshot with another weapon is more powerful, that's irrelevant, because to kill someone you still have to get through the leg damage at the end, whereas rayguns and raypistols damage all 3 areas evenly. But basically the only disadvantage to BS is you can't do a leg shot. And that's it.


I don't think you have to deal with leg damage when multiple people are attackign the same person. I think if it takes one apu 10 hls to kill a tank aiming soley at the head, it'll be less than 2 shots total if 2 apus are head shotting.


I think. :p

[Pill]

Nerfus Maximus Battimus:
http://www.hasbro.com/common/images/products/45446_imageMain400.JPG

Actually I think the thing really needs one, not that my test apu has a particularly sweet resist setup or anything, but um, with full armor on, a pistol shouldn't be able to nuke me in 5 hits, unbuffed. :P

And not to nag, but i thought a pain easer was a rifle.

[\\Fényx//]

Originally posted by Pill
Nerfus Maximus Battimus:
http://www.hasbro.com/common/images/products/45446_imageMain400.JPG

Actually I think the thing really needs one, not that my test apu has a particularly sweet resist setup or anything, but um, with full armor on, a pistol shouldn't be able to nuke me in 5 hits, unbuffed. :P

And not to nag, but i thought a pain easer was a rifle.

uhm thats pretty damn sucky resists, shouldnt nerf a gun because you have shite resists o_O

It takes ALOT more than 5 hits to take down someone like arcadius...

[Varaem]

Originally posted by VetteroX

Vaream, You are good. Try using liberator, take a few days to get used to it. It took me a few days, then i got really good with it. blacksun is the easy road, and the way to constantly get better it to challenge yourself.


Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I do suck... I get 5 fps in most fights, 10 if I'm lucky but never more than 12. I need a gun that aims well because I can't see them move smoothly... lol. Also, everyone uses liberators... they're still more popular than blacksuns right now. I like to be different.. kinda. And.. for me, I think I use 1-2 stamina boosters every fight with a black sun, and I reload 2-3 times. I don't get how you guys don't have to reload.. :mad:

[Peeping Tom]

If your nerfing the Bs.. dont fucking nerf the RoLh :\
ye bs might be to power full for its TL but others rayguns are just fine or to weak :\
and clip size for raypistols are fine tbh
K4F

[Rade]

Blacksun is fine, other weapons should be boosted to its power, not the other way around. A BS is still inferior to the good rifles even in close combat.

[SigmaDraconis]

strange then how mosty rifle users..even RoG ones couldnt touch me in close combat.

And yet again..its not its power....the damage of pistols is damn near perfect...its the other traits of the guns that need adjusted, some for the better some for worse.

[Original monk]

My favorite:

Nerfius Battius Niddius Giganticus
(related to: Bannius Niddius Gholiat, Wackius Niddius Atlas)

All from the same banstick family with small diffrences in dna-structure, but almost the same characteristics and both the same use. Subspecie of the Nerfus Maximus Battimus.
Maintarget: monks (more specific: hybridmonks) also spammers and flamers or yust to use on the face off youre exgirlfriend her new boyfriend.
Subtargets: burglers and mother in law

Options: can be upgraded with electroshock of 60.000 volt
effects: same as the size: HUGE

http://users.pandora.be/original/bat.jpg

i yust couldnt resist postin this pic again :P

[QuantumDelta]

o_O

Anyway, I'd be using Ryker Napalm if it was viable but it's not.

I'd be using judge if it was viable but it sucks for what you have to give up, to get to it.

[Pill]

i didn't say my resists sucked, to further elaborate, it's not so much they suck, they are actually quite good, but they aren't the best they could or should be.

[paladin655]

yea nerfing pistols are bad ideas. i suck at PVP speically when a APU comes along.