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I wonder how many tanks LOM at mid level when they find that tanks are HC specific and they've set themselves up for rifles or pistols from the start.
This is from another thread, but I wanted to hear opinions about this point specifically.
Why shouldn't a tank use rifles or high-tech rifles?
Originally posted by Alex Mars
This is from another thread, but I wanted to hear opinions about this point specifically.
Why shouldn't a tank use rifles or high-tech rifles?
Because rifles require a high amount of weapon lore in order to get sufficient aiming to hit a target reliably. Tanks have only 20 Int to spend on this, which means they can't quite reach 100 weapon lore with imps. And that's from melee combat eye 3. The tank's dexterity cap is 70, and they don't start of with as many points to spend as a spy or PE, which means they will be hard pressed to get decent stats on any dex based weapons, especially if they use tech combat. Also these points eat into the tank's agility points, which means you have to spend more in athletics to make up for it, which means your resists are generally poor, and you die quickly. Add to that the fact that the only rare rifle a tank can hope to wield is a tl93 Pain Easer, and you'll see it's much more appealing to go for cannons, since you can then use weapons like the tl105 Cursed Soul, second in power only to the Holy Lightning of apu monks.
EDIT: Basically it's one of those things where you can do it but due to the specialisation system it will gimp your character. It's fine if you don't mind using non-rare weapons and sticking to PvE, but if you want to do PvP, use rare weapons etc. then there's a few things you just can't really do. Hopefully when Lupus is finished revamping the weapons system this will change.
They're viable, though hard to do.
Just need a decent imp setup.
I know a fair share of people with non-tech rifle tanks.
Alot of fun really.
Best tank combo though, is melee/pistol.
:D
nonamebrandeggs
03-09-03, 04:47
Originally posted by Alex Mars
This is from another thread, but I wanted to hear opinions about this point specifically.
Why shouldn't a tank use rifles or high-tech rifles?
Who says they shouldn't?
Originally posted by nonamebrandeggs
Who says they shouldn't?
The person I quoted at the top of the thread, try to keep up.
I was asking for opinions on the validity of the statement, I thought that was fairly obvious. For you, I will try to make things extra clear from now on.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The person I quoted at the top of the thread, try to keep up.
I was asking for opinions on the validity of the statement, I thought that was fairly obvious. For you, I will try to make things extra clear from now on.
Erm.. you neglected to include an "Originally posted by" comment so it's not apparent who posted it, hence the question, who said it? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The person I quoted at the top of the thread, try to keep up.
I was asking for opinions on the validity of the statement, I thought that was fairly obvious. For you, I will try to make things extra clear from now on.
I'm all for a little clarity, but no one asks for a side of gibe.
:rolleyes:
I second Scikar.
ZoneVortex
03-09-03, 05:15
Droner tanks in da houuseeee.....
You can reach enough WPW to be a good droner !
rofl alex and sci will you 2 cut out the bitching shit before nid gets his hammer to crack some skulls ^^
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
rofl alex and sci will you 2 cut out the bitching shit before nid gets his hammer to crack some skulls ^^
Then I'll ask politely for an explanation of which forum rule I broke. I think you'll see Alex was the first to make an unprovoked attack on the poor defenceless nonamebrandeggs.
Like Scikar said, they just ain't got the weapon lore for rifles. They can do pistols, but pistols suck. ;)
Frankly, who said it is irrelevant unless I want to provide fodder for someone elses prejudices. It was the statement I wanted feedback on, not the poster.
Then at least be polite. It goes a long way.
:D
Why should I have been polite to you in this? All you were looking for was an excuse to flame whoever said it rather than concentrating on the validity of the statement.
nonamebrandeggs
03-09-03, 05:55
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The person I quoted at the top of the thread, try to keep up.
I was asking for opinions on the validity of the statement, I thought that was fairly obvious. For you, I will try to make things extra clear from now on.
He never said that...
Yes, I mistakenly indicated him instead of you, sorry.
Scikar's first reply had it pretty much spot on.
The mechanics of the skills system mean you can put together all sorts of odd and unlikely combos.
However - just because they are possible doesn't mean they are useful.
This is doubly true when talking about PvP. The very same skills system means you can also plough every single point you have into narrowly focused combat skills.
The skills points available are finite - therefore you have to make a choice at some point ... do you want to be competetive at the most focused top level of PvP, or not.
All this seems relatively sane and straightforward ... but only if you have been playing the game a while. It is certainly *not* obvious to a newcomer to the game.
No matter how much of a Neocron fan you are it can't seriously be argued that KK's documentation and learning curve guides are anything but essentially worthless.
Pretty much the one time I would want a rifle as a tank would be to snipe a mob to get its attention, but an AoE cannon is usually adequate for that anyway.
PS: Fenyx check post counts. ;)
Originally posted by kurai
Scikar's first reply had it pretty much spot on.
The mechanics of the skills system mean you can put together all sorts of odd and unlikely combos.
However - just because they are possible doesn't mean they are useful.
This is doubly true when talking about PvP. The very same skills system means you can also plough every single point you have into narrowly focused combat skills.
The skills points available are finite - therefore you have to make a choice at some point ... do you want to be competetive at the most focused top level of PvP, or not.
All this seems relatively sane and straightforward ... but only if you have been playing the game a while. It is certainly *not* obvious to a newcomer to the game.
No matter how much of a Neocron fan you are it can't seriously be argued that KK's documentation and learning curve guides are anything but essentially worthless.
Complex skill systems like this are a double-edged sword. On one hand you get a deep and interesting game, on the other hand it is easy to gimp yourself.
At E3 I got to play City of Heroes, a superhero game that started out with a complex Champions-like character system but ended up with a stupid-simple system where you get to pick a main and secondary offense and defense only. They decided it was too easy to create a gimp that couldn't compete so they made character creation essentially mindless.
Iffy Boatrace
03-09-03, 06:35
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I wonder how many tanks LOM at mid level when they find that tanks are HC specific and they've set themselves up for rifles or pistols from the start.
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I am the writer of the original quote as cited in the beginning of this thread.
The clarification of that statement is:
Starting a new character, a tank, you choose Mercenary and aside from the knife you get you'll also get a pistol. To an uninformed player, the providing of this gun reads as a strong suggestion on the part of the developers that this is the path you should choose. So someone starting out with a provided pistol or rifle is lead to believe that this is the path to take. Being that there are many places someone can level in relative obscurity and the rapid pace of early advancement a Tank can easily find himself at mid-level struggling along with an uzi, auto pistol or rifle and wondering just why it's so hard.
The game is what you make of it though and you can have plenty of fun with whatever setup you choose but the only real viable weapon for a tank aside from his usual arsenal is pistols, and plain lead spitters at that. Having relatively low weapon lore won't be so bad as he'll always be up close for his work and pistols aim very fast regardless.
Shadow Dancer
03-09-03, 07:20
Tanks shuold be able to use every weapon IMO.
Nullifidian
03-09-03, 07:37
Originally posted by Alex Mars
Complex skill systems like this are a double-edged sword. On one hand you get a deep and interesting game, on the other hand it is easy to gimp yourself.
At E3 I got to play City of Heroes, a superhero game that started out with a complex Champions-like character system but ended up with a stupid-simple system where you get to pick a main and secondary offense and defense only. They decided it was too easy to create a gimp that couldn't compete so they made character creation essentially mindless.
They also found the opposite was true in their first customization scheme. Players who really knew the game could create an ultimate character who could solo anything in the game.
Where they failed is the part about forcing players to team up. What the fuck is it with MMORPG makers that they all seem to think that FORCING people into teams is in any way even remotely fun?! Oh yeah, I just loved sitting for 2 hours in AO shouting "LFG! LFG!! Nanotechnician LFG!" Or in DAoC shouting "Berserker LFG!" for even longer.
Forcing people into doing ANYTHING is not fun. Just like forcing players to specialize is stupid; which is actually a subset of the whole forced teaming thing. Encourage, reward, but never penalize, and NEVER EVER FORCE. Fact: most people have more fun when teamed with friends. Fact: not everyone can team with friends all the time. Fact: most people would prefer to be able to play on there own much of the time. Fact: most people get bored only being able to do one thing and one thing only. What does this all boil down to? The old skill system in Neocron was much better. There was a time when you could use more than one skill under any given stat and not be gimped. There was a time when a mid-high level character could solo a ** mob. There was a time when high level characters could solo any mob in the game. There was a time when you didn't need a PPU monk to tie your own shoelaces; cus they didn't even exist. People were able to be effective in combat with non-traditional setups. They were able to fulfill more than one role and have more fun because they could do more than one thing. Levelling wasn't a chore; it was seen as the introduciton to the game. Once you got high enough, you could engage in PvP and clan warfare. Dieing wasn't really a big deal, because the worst you lost was some constructed storebought weapon; there were no rares. The only thing that we needed then was some bugs fixed, and some content added. KK had other ideas.
So, there was a time when you could use rifles or pistols as a tank. Not anymore. If you do now, you'll never be anything more than a worthless gimp. Not only will you be useless in PvP and OP Wars, you'll be unable to even take on high level mobs. The only thing tanks can do is use Heavy Weapons. That's it. End of story.
Shadow Dancer
03-09-03, 07:43
Nulli I know what you mean, what the fuck is the obsession with this 'forced grouping' crap?
I mean jesus, fine make some classes complimentary to each other, but tdon't take it too far.
On the contrary...
A close combat non-tech rifle tank with a 5 slot pain easer modded WITH a laser pointer can do okay. But nothing compares to the power of the cursed soul :)
Tanks should be able to use every weapon. The required skills to use any specific weapon should maybe be dynamic according to character class perhaps?
Originally posted by Mankind
On the contrary...
A close combat non-tech rifle tank with a 5 slot pain easer modded WITH a laser pointer can do okay. But nothing compares to the power of the cursed soul :)
Been there and your statement is not entirely correct. Actually a PE tank is more viable then a pistol tank which is very good. The problem is you need to change the style how you play a tank. Playing a PE tank like a CS tank will get you free NEXT services only. As a PE tank, you need to keep your enemy on distance, this is even more important then dealing damage to him. You're faster then even a tank with speed overspec, so this isnt really a problem.
When you get used to the use of whiteflash, you can still maintain a very effective defence under CON.
BTW, a PE tank is way more viable then a melee tank in PvP. The problem is, you get a hard time leveling one as T-C is not an option. You start with ACR, AR and TAR and pretty much up to a PE you have to stick to non-tech melee for leveling.
Same goes for a pistol tank. Pistol tank is still a viable choice for PvP after the recent pistol boost. And it is a very enjoyable char in both PvP and PvM. But again, different play style. A tank that LoMs to pistols after he capped with heavy weapons will lose 9 of 10 PvP matches if not 10 of 10. You need time to get used to it, you need even more time to get used to the new weapon.
Basically, the tank templates with pistols and rifles on character creation arent really bad choices, neither are they misleading. They maybe just should get a remark to be for people with some NC experience as you wont get much help from other tanks when it comes to how to setup your char for P-C or R-C and that is actually the biggest problem ;-)
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