now since hybrids are gone... [Archive]

LTA

02-09-03, 19:22

Originally posted by Archeus
How much of a difference is a capped rare?

I'm PPU :D

a very big difference :D

Capped rof on apu spells and runcasting is what makes them powerfull, without getting near cap runcasting wont happen and you'll end up being frag bait

and to your edit, well thats different being a ppu, but still a capped Holy Heal r0x0rs and i hope one day having capped defs ans shelts will make a big diff as the 50% reduction on others is harsh :p

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 19:23

Originally posted by Archeus
How much of a difference is a capped rare?

I'm PPU :D

and when your shields cant stop an agressor from killing you youll say

"o0ps i r made a mistake"

:lol:

japata

02-09-03, 19:24

And if you're PPU and want to cap your heal, you can't have 400 mana pool. Sucks to be me. :)

Archeus

02-09-03, 19:31

Originally posted by KidWithStick
and when your shields cant stop an agressor from killing you youll say

"o0ps i r made a mistake"

:lol:

My shields can withstand 5 seconds of Elite Storm Bot firepower before I have to hide. :p

But yes I can see where holy heal capped would be a huge difference.

It's nearly 400 from the imps/PA2. Without those it's pretty crappy.

Progenitor

02-09-03, 19:39

I had a pool of 378ish and LOM'd down to a little above 300 to get more bang for my buck, and I am really hating it.

It use to be so nice to get down to 178ish pool left then munching a psi booster 2. When that 178 was gone, the yellow would basically be gone as well, perfect time for another booster.

Now, I run out of leftover pool way before the booster pool is regened.

It isn't so much the 70odd pool points I miss as so much as the regen rate is that much slower.

I'd much rather see them get rid of MST now and allow us to spec a little ppu, overspec apu to compensate for the ppu and have a near cap psi pool.

But something is better than nothing.

-p

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 19:41

I have 280 mana pool It's complete crap. Anti spells cost too much and we aren't the damage dealers PvM because of our insane reload time and our low mana pool.

WE NEED MORE MANA!

I can't believe people are voting no, how selish. How would you like it if your CS shot twice per clip. :rolleyes:

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 19:41

lol...this is kinda off topic...but if anyone wants to come rez me on saturn in chaos caves id enjoy that... been dead for like 20 mins...im about halfway into the cave

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 19:45

APUs will never get anything. As soon as a monk asks for something people shout them down because of monk bias and thinking that the class is overpowered.

Lame.

Mingerroo

02-09-03, 19:45

Ive been parashocked to death by two PPUs.....

I cant heal faster than they hurt my precious spy (they fire so damn fast, plus dmg boost, plus that true sight removing my stealth :()

I think all psis have ample psi pools, oh and psi boosters are your equivalent of ammo.

Please dont flame me, thats my opinion, do YOU have a counter argument? *points out of screen at the viewer*

Mingoo

Archeus

02-09-03, 19:45

how about...

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73876

Instead of extra mana PSI shield converts some of the energy attacks into PSI points (but offers no protection otherwise). Make it an APU spell.

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 19:49

Originally posted by Mingerroo

I think all psis have ample psi pools, oh and psi boosters are your equivalent of ammo.

Ammo reloads much faster.

And no we don't have ample psi pools, only a non monk would say that.

Originally posted by Mingerroo

I cant heal faster than they hurt my precious spy (they fire so damn fast, plus dmg boost, plus that true sight removing my stealth :()

loooooooooool

Originally posted by Mingerroo

Please dont flame me, thats my opinion,

I know, it's no surprise really. You "vote" no nearly to any postivie for ANY class, this is just more proof. You've done it several times already. You only vote to somethign that will help YOUR character, hacker spy.

Originally posted by Mingerroo
do YOU have a counter argument? *points out of screen at the viewer*

Mingoo

roflmao

Originally posted by Archeus
how about...

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73876

Instead of extra mana PSI shield converts some of the energy attacks into PSI points (but offers no protection otherwise). Make it an APU spell.

huh? You mean getting hit gives you mana?

Omnituens

02-09-03, 19:50

i have an idea

how about the crahn epic gives PPW instead of the lame +50 psi mana it does now.

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 19:51

Originally posted by Omnituens
i have an idea

how about the crahn epic gives PPW instead of the lame +50 psi mana it does now.

That's not going to help really because crahn epic(for some odd reason they just won't release it now, it won't hurt anyone) is going to come out with DOY. And you know when DOY is coming out........:rolleyes:

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 19:54

i dont want PSI shield for APU's...that spell is a POS... i got it on my PPU...

i want to be able to not have to pop a booster litterially every second....my friend went through 80 boosters in 1 night from chaos caves...isnt that a little to much? considering that they cost how much?

Progenitor

02-09-03, 20:03

Originally posted by KidWithStick
i dont want PSI shield for APU's...that spell is a POS... i got it on my PPU...

i want to be able to not have to pop a booster litterially every second....my friend went through 80 boosters in 1 night from chaos caves...isnt that a little to much? considering that they cost how much?

Eighty in one night? I'd love that.

I carry 40 in each run and end up somewhere in the teens, every so often, less then 10.

I can easily go through 500 in a weekend.

Which is why constantly hunt for cloning loot.

-p

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 20:05

Originally posted by Progenitor
Eighty in one night? I'd love that.

I carry 40 in each run and end up somewhere in the teens, every so often, less then 10.

I can easily go through 500 in a weekend.

Which is why constantly hunt for cloning loot.

-p

well i forgot to mention he only went though 1 and a half runs :lol:

Archeus

02-09-03, 20:08

Originally posted by KidWithStick
i dont want PSI shield for APU's...that spell is a POS... i got it on my PPU...

i want to be able to not have to pop a booster litterially every second....my friend went through 80 boosters in 1 night from chaos caves...isnt that a little to much? considering that they cost how much?

What I meant was change the function of the PSI shield spell. No one uses it. So have it that an attack on the APU gives them more mana regen. They don't have shields but they would prefer a small amount of mana back in the pool to gank with?

FBI

02-09-03, 20:10

It's not how the game plays you, it's how you play the game.

Remember that my padawans ;)

Well actually, I voted yes because my PPU monk on saturn needs
lovin. :angel:

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 20:13

Originally posted by Archeus
What I meant was change the function of the PSI shield spell. No one uses it. So have it that an attack on the APU gives them more mana regen. They don't have shields but they would prefer a small amount of mana back in the pool to gank with?

oh..well in that case, it seems like a pretty good idea...but still i would just like for PSI use to give mana...

:lol: @ FBI

ghandisfury

02-09-03, 21:23

Originally posted by KidWithStick
i want to be able to not have to pop a booster litterially every second....my friend went through 80 boosters in 1 night from chaos caves...isnt that a little to much? considering that they cost how much?

I voted no......but I will vote yes if they decrease the debuff time to about 10 or 11 ROF. If you want more pool, then you need to sacrafice your damage. You shouldn't be able to cap ROF on antibuff, and cap damage on other spells (my hummble oppinion).

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 21:27

Originally posted by ghandisfury
I voted no......but I will vote yes if they decrease the debuff time to about 10 or 11 ROF. If you want more pool, then you need to sacrafice your damage. You shouldn't be able to cap ROF on antibuff, and cap damage on other spells (my hummble oppinion).

that's beyond silly. Sacrifice pool for damage? Or VV?

Damage IS our main point. It's like saying tanks have to sacrifice STR to get a good sized clip on their CS. Or sacrifice resists for more STR.

thewarrior008

02-09-03, 21:29

SEX

Shakari

02-09-03, 22:00

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I have 280 mana pool It's complete crap. Anti spells cost too much and we aren't the damage dealers PvM because of our insane reload time and our low mana pool.

WE NEED MORE MANA!

I can't believe people are voting no, how selish. How would you like it if your CS shot twice per clip. :rolleyes:

not the dmg dealers PVM hmm yeah we are I can kill chasers faster than any other class and easier to when using the terrain :)

I have a pool of 320 :)

and as i have High lvl variants of all the 4 classes all geared to PVM I'm not talking outa my ass :):)

Judge

02-09-03, 22:19

I said yes.... but not too much.

Scikar

02-09-03, 22:48

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
that's beyond silly. Sacrifice pool for damage? Or VV?

Damage IS our main point. It's like saying tanks have to sacrifice STR to get a good sized clip on their CS. Or sacrifice resists for more STR.

No, see ghandisfury has realised that if we give apus some more mana, antibuff will work properly since they can still cast HL afterwards, and that means his ppu might die more than once every blue moon so we can't have that, no sir.

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 23:21

Originally posted by Shakari
not the dmg dealers PVM hmm yeah we are I can kill chasers faster than any other class and easier to when using the terrain :)

I guess we disagree.

ghandisfury

02-09-03, 23:35

Originally posted by Scikar
No, see ghandisfury has realised that if we give apus some more mana, antibuff will work properly since they can still cast HL afterwards, and that means his ppu might die more than once every blue moon so we can't have that, no sir.

If your idea of "working properly" is an APU being able to solo a PPU then yes.....An APU can cap freq and damage on all his spell, OR cap his mana pool. Just as a PE can cap damage and freq on lib OR use stealth.....etc.....all players can specialize in a certain area, or generalize in all areas (meaning that he will not be specialized in any certain area). So, make the choice of capped mana pool, and lower ROF/Dam on spells, or cap your spells and suffer ROF penalties.

Shadow Dancer

02-09-03, 23:36

A good ppu can't be soloed, period. Don't blame classes for your shortcomings.

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 23:38

a APU can cap damage on HL WITH like 200 mana pool...or if he gets boosted.

personally i dont know any PPU's on saturn to help out my APU...

i dont care about using debuff...i dont even got it, if i did would i use it? no.

all i care about is being able to have a reasonable ammount of manapool.

SorkZmok

02-09-03, 23:40

Imo, Apus should get nerfed a bit before that should happen.
But i wont say that cause ppl will hate me.

*runs*

KidWithStick

02-09-03, 23:42

Originally posted by SorkZmok
Imo, Apus should get nerfed a bit before that should happen.
But i wont say that cause ppl will hate me.

*runs*

why does every one want to nerf APUS? WTF?

what is so wrong with APU's? were to strong? TBH i think tanks are to strong. with there good defence + offence.

and yea...im a almost capped tank...

ghandisfury

02-09-03, 23:51

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
A good ppu can't be soloed, period. Don't blame classes for your shortcomings.

First of all :rolleyes:

Second of all if an APU could cap damage AND ROF AND mana pool, he could solo ANY PPU. So like I said, as a PPU I would love to have more mana pool, but as an APU hater (sorry class talking) if a monk was able to get more mana then the ROF of any antibuff would have to be cut in half.

Shadow Dancer

03-09-03, 00:00

Originally posted by ghandisfury
First of all :rolleyes:

Second of all if an APU could cap damage AND ROF AND mana pool, he could solo ANY PPU. So like I said, as a PPU I would love to have more mana pool, but as an APU hater (sorry class talking) if a monk was able to get more mana then the ROF of any antibuff would have to be cut in half.

I disagree. He can't solo any ppu with capped pool mana and rof. And we don't even want necassarily capped poo, but 280 is rediculously low.

If the ppu knows what he is doing, HE CANNOT BE SOLOED!

SorkZmok

03-09-03, 00:03

Originally posted by KidWithStick
why does every one want to nerf APUS? WTF?

what is so wrong with APU's? were to strong? TBH i think tanks are to strong. with there good defence + offence.

and yea...im a almost capped tank...

See? I get flamed! :p

Tbh i think tanks suck. Well i never really played one but i fought many, from that i learned that tanks got GREAT offence but actually they got shit defence.

But to come back to my topic, i dont want to nerf APUs, i want to nerf HL. Im ok with every APU spell except HL. That spell is WAY to powerful. Not even because of the dmg it does, but because of its RoF. I`d say, put that down to 87 like FA. Cause when you get shot by an APU, he can easily hit you with 3 or more HLs before you even know whats going on. And those hits mean death! i mean DEATH!

/edited some typos and i just HAD to add this:

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
If the ppu knows what he is doing, HE CANNOT BE SOLOED!

Possessed

03-09-03, 00:03

Agreed with shadow here, if anyone needs proof i have three words for you, "Pete the Psi".

End of discussion.

Duder

03-09-03, 00:07

I say yes, means more mana for me...

Scikar

03-09-03, 00:09

Originally posted by ghandisfury
If your idea of "working properly" is an APU being able to solo a PPU then yes.....An APU can cap freq and damage on all his spell, OR cap his mana pool. Just as a PE can cap damage and freq on lib OR use stealth.....etc.....all players can specialize in a certain area, or generalize in all areas (meaning that he will not be specialized in any certain area). So, make the choice of capped mana pool, and lower ROF/Dam on spells, or cap your spells and suffer ROF penalties.

I see you haven't done much analysis on this. Let's take ppu vs apu, 1v1. Apu casts antibuff, at 21/min this means just under 3 seconds. This is enough time for the ppu to cast parashock, and start running. Apu takes antishock drug. Antibuff finishes. Apu now uses HL at 105/min RoF. Ppu casts Holy Shelter. RoF of 52/min, exactly half. This means 2 HL hits doing unbuffed damage, before Holy Shelter is on and the ppu is taking 20 damage per hit. Ppu casts Holy Heal, and starts running again. Antishock drug takes effect. Apu switches back to antibuff, but by the time antibuff is casted again the ppu is back to full health and the cycle starts again. There is no way in hell an apu will ever be able to solo a ppu who knows what he's doing. Yes a good apu will be able to kill an unskilled, retarded ppu but a tank can kill an unskilled, retarded ppu so that's irrelevant.

Liquid_Ice

03-09-03, 00:28

please KK , I want massive damage , never stop firing , run cast , range that is nearly half of what any rifle can shoot with the current bugs in clipping and viewable distance and no target rectical... That about does it unless you want to give us a shield of some sort maybe say a PSI shield.. Thanks ever so much KK..

What the heck while your at it I would like my spy to use and Cap a CS and wear TANK PA with 75 in all resists...

Question , at what point to you stop begginfor more stuff for your chosen class and play it for what it is?? BAH..

Sleawer

03-09-03, 00:29

That cycle has an end Scikar... how many antishock drugs do you carry in the quick belt.
In my opinion having mana pool capped wont mean a big difference fighting ppu's.

People seems to remeber very well the apu damage capability, but often forget that we cannot cast even a single heal. If that's not a big tradeoff, then what is it.

Anyway I see a nerf comming for both apu's... and ppu's.

@Liquid Ice,

- Monks, masters of psi, should not be able to cap their "psi pool"

and while we are at it...

- Tanks should not be able to cap health and have good resists
- Spies should not be able to use stealth, and use disruptor of silent hunter

What the heck, we cannot have all eh? what we want, everything...

oh wait, and no one should be able to fire a weapon, and have ppu to cast a heal :rolleyes:

Scikar

03-09-03, 00:36

At the end of the day, ppus justify being invincible to any single opponent by having no offense. So therefore would it not be justified for an apu to be capable of killing any single opponent due to their lack of offense? Medkits, psi armor and 45 Con are as good defence-wise as parashock, damage boost, soul clusters and tl20 uzis are offence-wise.

KidWithStick

03-09-03, 05:37

Originally posted by Scikar
At the end of the day, ppus justify being invincible to any single opponent by having no offense. So therefore would it not be justified for an apu to be capable of killing any single opponent due to their lack of offense? Medkits, psi armor and 45 Con are as good defence-wise as parashock, damage boost, soul clusters and tl20 uzis are offence-wise.

i have to admit...i die to a PPU who DB's me then pulls out an assault rifle...

piercing > APU +Monk PA - piercing resists = dead APU

Pill

03-09-03, 09:35

if you have 127 psi power (like psis should) you cap your mana pool, if psi use gave mana points, the cap would have to be in the thousands.

Mr Friendly

03-09-03, 10:24

they changed it cuz psi use had to do with how much dmg u dealt, but now it's psi power, but still yeah, since there's no more hybrids i think things would be better with the old psi use

Mr Friendly

03-09-03, 10:25

ghandisfury

03-09-03, 20:14

Originally posted by Scikar
I see you haven't done much analysis on this. Let's take ppu vs apu, 1v1. Apu casts antibuff, at 21/min this means just under 3 seconds. This is enough time for the ppu to cast parashock, and start running. Apu takes antishock drug. Antibuff finishes. Apu now uses HL at 105/min RoF. Ppu casts Holy Shelter. RoF of 52/min, exactly half. This means 2 HL hits doing unbuffed damage, before Holy Shelter is on and the ppu is taking 20 damage per hit. Ppu casts Holy Heal, and starts running again. Antishock drug takes effect. Apu switches back to antibuff, but by the time antibuff is casted again the ppu is back to full health and the cycle starts again. There is no way in hell an apu will ever be able to solo a ppu who knows what he's doing. Yes a good apu will be able to kill an unskilled, retarded ppu but a tank can kill an unskilled, retarded ppu so that's irrelevant.

I see YOU haven't done much analasys on this subject. You are talking about a duel between an APU and a PPU. I'm talking about the times I'm out hunting WBs with a mate, and get ambushed. An APU can hit his target with antibuff before he is in local, and begin casting HL at 105/min.....and often times the PPU (not just me, I've talked to many) will not know he is antibuffed until he notices he is taking way to much damage. One of the things that saves the PPU (not just me I've talked to many) is the fact that at one point the APUs HL drops from 105/min to around 20 or 30 due to lack of mana. Your argument is based on a neofrag setting, not in a setting that mostly applies (such as I am watching my mates for heals/ buffs/rezz/ etc....and I get antibuffed). So I'll say it again (because you don't seem to understand) you can make a choice.......cap freq/dam on spells, or cap mana pool.......but NO class can cap ANY skill without sacraficing another.....APUs should be no different.

Scikar

03-09-03, 20:23

Originally posted by ghandisfury
I see YOU haven't done much analasys on this subject. You are talking about a duel between an APU and a PPU. I'm talking about the times I'm out hunting WBs with a mate, and get ambushed. An APU can hit his target with antibuff before he is in local, and begin casting HL at 105/min.....and often times the PPU (not just me, I've talked to many) will not know he is antibuffed until he notices he is taking way to much damage. One of the things that saves the PPU (not just me I've talked to many) is the fact that at one point the APUs HL drops from 105/min to around 20 or 30 due to lack of mana. Your argument is based on a neofrag setting, not in a setting that mostly applies (such as I am watching my mates for heals/ buffs/rezz/ etc....and I get antibuffed). So I'll say it again (because you don't seem to understand) you can make a choice.......cap freq/dam on spells, or cap mana pool.......but NO class can cap ANY skill without sacraficing another.....APUs should be no different.

I'm not talking about NeoFrag at all. I'm talking about OP wars. If you get ambushed, you deserve to die plain and simple. If nobody ever died in an ambush, what would be the point in achieving one? You let your guard down, and you get punished for it. If you were more alert you might notice the MASSIVE disco ball that apus make when they cast antibuff, just like I'm always aware of a ppu casting ressurection.

Last I checked, my tank didn't sacrifice too much to cap his CS. He can carry 50 packs of ammo, he has capped run speed, his resists aren't compromised at all. What did I sacrifice to do that? :rolleyes:

The setting that mostly applies is OP wars and high level PvP. Being ambushed while out hunting is totally irrelevant to class balance, how can hope you to judge balance in an uneven fight? To take your ambush one step further, what do you think happens to my apu when I'm out hunting and get ambushed? I die in less than a second. If you want to say antibuff is unfair because you get antibuffed without noticing when hunting, then I say apus should get better defence because they are killed even easier when hunting.

Shakari

03-09-03, 20:36

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I guess we disagree.

ok name a class that can do more dmg over than an apu in PVM

my tank can't :) spy or PE's i doubt but feel free to enlighten me please :) if i am wrong

Scikar

03-09-03, 20:38

Originally posted by Shakari
ok name a class that can do more dmg over than an apu in PVM

my tank can't :) spy or PE's i doubt but feel free to enlighten me please :) if i am wrong

A tank can. Over time, the apu's damage falls off very badly because of the mana pool. Whereas a tank can carry a virutally unlimited supply of ammo. A CS might not outdamage a HL, but a Moon Striker does far more damage over time than any barrel.

ghandisfury

03-09-03, 21:11

Originally posted by Scikar
A tank can. Over time, the apu's damage falls off very badly because of the mana pool. Whereas a tank can carry a virutally unlimited supply of ammo. A CS might not outdamage a HL, but a Moon Striker does far more damage over time than any barrel.

My god you have never played a monk before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One energy holy energy barrel does more damage than a capped Moon striker (YES I'VE PROVEN IT)....your ignorance saturates every conversation you enter.

To take your ambush one step further, what do you think happens to my apu when I'm out hunting and get ambushed? I die in less than a second. If you want to say antibuff is unfair because you get antibuffed without noticing when hunting, then I say apus should get better defence because they are killed even easier when hunting.

Difference?????????????? PPU=no offence asside from parashock which should be removed. APU=best offence. You keep saying "but OMG OMG they can use a TAR!!!! It gimps the fuck out of you if you use a TAR....descent for 1/1.....solution for fighting a PPU using a pistol/rifle? Dont fight them.

Last I checked, my tank didn't sacrifice too much to cap his CS. He can carry 50 packs of ammo, he has capped run speed, his resists aren't compromised at all. What did I sacrifice to do that?

If you have capped (damage and freq) your CS than you have compromised your transport, or your force resist.

Shadow Dancer

03-09-03, 21:22

Originally posted by Shakari
ok name a class that can do more dmg over than an apu in PVM

Tanks with cs and spies with first love *can* outdamage us due to 2 important factors

1.Our low mana pool

2.Random damage.

Scikar

03-09-03, 21:39

Originally posted by ghandisfury
My god you have never played a monk before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One energy holy energy barrel does more damage than a capped Moon striker (YES I'VE PROVEN IT)....your ignorance saturates every conversation you enter.

I play my apu monk more than I play my tank. You haven't proved it, I see no results in front of me. You can't just say one barrel outdamages one rocket - what happens over time? One barrel doesn't kill anyone, neither does one rocket. But the tank can keep up a sustained rate of fire whereas the apu runs out of mana. Stop demonstrating YOUR ignorance.

Difference?????????????? PPU=no offence asside from parashock which should be removed. APU=best offence. You keep saying "but OMG OMG they can use a TAR!!!! It gimps the fuck out of you if you use a TAR....descent for 1/1.....solution for fighting a PPU using a pistol/rifle? Dont fight them.

How does it gimp the fuck out of you? Ppus don't even need that much agility anyway because they have uber defence as it is, not to mention even a noob can outrun someone who's been hit by holy paralysis. There is no simple solution of "don't fight them" - that's also the simple solution to you being attacked by an apu with antibuff. If my solution to fighting a ppu using a pistol/rifle is to not fight them, your solution to fighting an apu is to not fight them either. Thanks for dropping yourself in that one there.

If you have capped (damage and freq) your CS than you have compromised your transport, or your force resist.

It's capped in damage, and the freq is not capped, but it's as fast as it needs to be for me to aim. There's no need to cap it fully because if you fire it fully auto you miss all the time anyway. I can carry my CS, SpeedGun and a Moon Striker in OP wars, with 30 packs of ammo for each, and I still have 50 free load. And piercing weapons don't hurt me either, because I still have points to spare for that. Not that you would know since you haven't played a tank.

Progenitor

03-09-03, 22:10

Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Tanks with cs and spies with first love *can* outdamage us due to 2 important factors

1.Our low mana pool

2.Random damage.

I concur.

Once my pool reaches zero and all I have is boosters to rely on for pool regain, my damage falls off drastically.

Now if boosters worked the old way, the way that current stanima boosters work and you get the pool back instantly, we would own. At least until we had to refill our quickbelts.

-p