Pistol PE question [Archive] - Official Neocron Forum

DonnyJepp

31-08-03, 22:20

I know the thread's about pistols but I thought I'd interject that it is also possible with rifles. I'm capped everything but RoF on me PE, and also with the DoY/Reezas Gaze raygun rifles.

Raygun rifles are pretty efficient, they do good damage at long range and whopping good damage at close range. I have been carrying around a 5 slot Reezas for about a month now and it is excellent, it is still at like 80/120 after a months heavy use.

I've even recently lommed to be able to hack warbots, and drive the wheeler bike (I'm not really that into PvP but I mix it up a little) and I'm really enjoying the versatility that not worrying about hitech rare rifles affords me.

VetteroX

31-08-03, 22:24

blacksun = exploiting. You know its too powerful for TL 86. Sure, ride it while u can but your gonna cry when its nerfed. Want respect as a pistol PE? use lib. Nothing wrong with exploiting something too powerful i guess though, hybreds got to do it for a year, but you wont get respect winning with blacksun, just as a hybred didnt get respect for beating people 1vs1.

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 22:28

Originally posted by VetteroX
blacksun = exploiting. You know its too powerful for TL 86. Sure, ride it while u can but your gonna cry when its nerfed. Want respect as a pistol PE? use lib. Nothing wrong with exploiting something too powerful i guess though, hybreds got to do it for a year, but you wont get respect winning with blacksun, just as a hybred didnt get respect for beating people 1vs1.

In that respect, the Liberator is still vastly overpowered when compared to the Cursed Soul.

There's like...what? Ten TL difference between the two?

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 22:49

Originally posted by Helen Angilley
In that respect, the Liberator is still vastly overpowered when compared to the Cursed Soul.

There's like...what? Ten TL difference between the two?
Not so, when you compare CS burst to Lib burst, you'll see there's a massive difference, the CS by far, even if both 100% hits, is more powerful.

There are a few PEs with the defencive setup that can use liberator, and take more damage than the tanks can output, since tanks don't have PE Defence and beat Tanks that way.

Looking at EMS.RU, as usual, is using, flawed information, and producing, flawed logic.

I've also had many, many people tell me blacksun and rolh, are the only pistols that are "real pistols", they're the only ones that are not uphucked.

Cryotchekk

31-08-03, 22:57

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Not so, when you compare CS burst to Lib burst, you'll see there's a massive difference, the CS by far, even if both 100% hits, is more powerful.

There are a few PEs with the defencive setup that can use liberator, and take more damage than the tanks can output, since tanks don't have PE Defence and beat Tanks that way.

Looking at EMS.RU, as usual, is using, flawed information, and producing, flawed logic.

I've also had many, many people tell me blacksun and rolh, are the only pistols that are "real pistols", they're the only ones that are not uphucked.

deffinatly have to agree with you, after playing with a cs tank and with a pistol spy, cs does way more damage.

allthough the cs will do more damage in a single hit the lib user does have the advantage of using speed to run circles around the tank. the libs uber rof does make it a very good weapon allthouh it wont necesserily do so much damage as others in a single burst.

i imagine ray weapons will get a nerf soon (so if anyone wans a 3 slot perfect rolh email me on pluto) not because they are overpowered in themselves, but when compaired to to all the other nerfed weapons they own.

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:00

heh, yea, Rayguns are the last vestige of the pistols.

Everything else, is either nerfed to hell, or has been useless since the beginning, rayguns? they're all that's left, so by default, they'll get nerfed, not because they're over powered, but because the rest is useless in comparison ;p

Cryotchekk

31-08-03, 23:02

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
heh, yea, Rayguns are the last vestige of the pistols.

Everything else, is either nerfed to hell, or has been useless since the beginning, rayguns? they're all that's left, so by default, they'll get nerfed, not because they're over powered, but because the rest is useless in comparison ;p

yeah, though i do find judge can be a very good weapon too, plus its reachable for pe's. a good judge in the rights hands can be devistating.

Pie'oh'pah

31-08-03, 23:02

Hmm anyone got a Blacksun BP then :P (Pluto)

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:04

Originally posted by Cryotchekk
yeah, though i do find judge can be a very good weapon too, plus its reachable for pe's. a good judge in the rights hands can be devistating.
Judge (capped) and Blacksun(point blank range + capped) do the exact same damage.

Cryotchekk

31-08-03, 23:06

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Judge (capped) and Blacksun(point blank range + capped) do the exact same damage.

my 3 slot artifact judge says differently :D

pi'ohpaa'a...whatever

roll to a pistol spy and buy my 3 slot perfect rolh :D

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:13

Sorry QD:

Originally posted by Lupus
Liberator does out damage a Cursed Soul in PvM.

Weapon <> Damage per bullet <> Clipsize <> Damage per Clip <> time to fire 1 clip and reload <> Damage in 1min real time

TL91 Liberator <> 55 <> 40 <> 2200 <> 9 <> 14666.66667

TL105 Cursed Soul <> 108 <> 20 <> 2160 <> 9 <> 14400

The only problem is the Liberator doesn't hit every bullet from every burst consistantly. If it did, then it would out damage the CS every single time.

PvP is a completely different beast all together, and the CS beats the Liberator there.

I have every Pistol/Rifle/Heavy Weapon tested in the same way as the above two. It really shows just how under powered some weapons are.. Ie.

TL94 Tangent Assault Pulselaser Pistol <> 37 <> 39 <> 1443 <> 9 <> 9620 (This one I know you brought up before about being under-powered Rade) <-- Also, it shows 39 shots per clip since currently it fires in 3 shot bursts leaving 1 in the chamber.

TL93 Pain Easer <> 91 <> 30 <> 2730 <> 13 <> 12600

I'm fully aware of the other limitations hindering weapons like the Liberator ie.. Aim/Range/How many shots actually hit.. However.. Damage is not the downfall of the Liberator.

In terms of damage per minute, inclusive of reload times, Lib does more damage.

Drake6k

31-08-03, 23:14

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Judge (capped) and Blacksun(point blank range + capped) do the exact same damage.

Actually you are wrong. In pvm they do yes but in pvp the Judge does do more damage. Kramer told me this and I tested to find out for myself. pvp and pvm damage are totally different.

/edit, had wrong quote

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:20

Originally posted by Lupus
PvP is a completely different beast all together, and the CS beats the Liberator there

Sorry Scikar.
My Point is proven.

Why is this?
This is because, as I have stated I think in my original post, and because I ALWAYS say this.

CS Burst bonus: 28%.

Lib Burst bonus: 20%.

And it pisses me off man...

However, in PvM, I admit, liberator is one of the very best weapons in the game....

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:25

You're gonna have to explain this burst bonus to me. As I understand it, the burst bonus is a bonus applied simply because the weapon is a burst fire weapon, regardless of whether the target is a mob or a player. Lupus was referring to the fact that in PvP you don't always have a closed reticle, and the reticle of a Lib is harder to close than that of a CS, hence the CS hits more often and does more damage.

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:28

Originally posted by Scikar
You're gonna have to explain this burst bonus to me. As I understand it, the burst bonus is a bonus applied simply because the weapon is a burst fire weapon, regardless of whether the target is a mob or a player. Lupus was referring to the fact that in PvP you don't always have a closed reticle, and the reticle of a Lib is harder to close than that of a CS, hence the CS hits more often and does more damage.

Burst bonus is only applied in PvP.

Bullet 1 does a set amount of damage.
Bullet 2 does 20(or 28)% more than that.
Bullet 3 does 20(or 28)% more than that, and
Bullet 4 does 20(or 28)% more than that.

The original nerf on the liberator was a drop from 30% to 20%.

At least, all this is from my understanding of a Dev Explanation of the burst bonus, also the notes of the patches about the lib...

Dream

31-08-03, 23:32

Shadow Dancer

31-08-03, 23:33

How is vet crying?

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:38

He's not.
He's a Pistol PE atm too, he simply refuses to use Blacksun because he believes it's cheap.
That's how effective it is in comparison to the other pistols.

It's the reason I stopped using "Host Eri" In FS2.

In a Host Eri, I was unbeaten, by everyone except my son, for 6 straight months.
I changed to Perseus and still kept that record for a while, but Perseus took more skill.

The difference, is that Vet feels BlackSun is like my Eri.
I don't feel Blacksun is that bad, I just feel that the other pistols could be brought to it's level to make it more even....

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:38

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Burst bonus is only applied in PvP.

Bullet 1 does a set amount of damage.
Bullet 2 does 20(or 28)% more than that.
Bullet 3 does 20(or 28)% more than that, and
Bullet 4 does 20(or 28)% more than that.

The original nerf on the liberator was a drop from 30% to 20%.

At least, all this is from my understanding of a Dev Explanation of the burst bonus, also the notes of the patches about the lib...

See, I don't think this is true. When testing my CS against a friend, I hit him repeatedly, letting him heal up, hitting him again, aiming for as many hits as possible. The most damage I could do was exactly 100 damage, with one burst of 4 hits. I'm assuming it was 4 hits because also common was around 75 damage, and 3 hits is what you'd usually expect. There would at least be a few occasions where all 4 hit, and so the highest damage I could do, is by all likelihood from 4 hits. So 4 hits = 100 damage, and 3 hits is about 75 damage. That in itself sounds like evidence against your burst bonus theory.

However we then dueled each other, several times. I'm not among the elite in PvP, though I get by. What I did notice, was that a lot of the time I was only scoring 2 hits per burst, and the number coming off was definitely 50. I have seen only evidence against your burst bonus theory, nothing that proves it.

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:40

heh, cute....cuz when one or two CS bolts hit me it only does about ....10............20 damage? that's when I'm not in full defence mode... so much less than 25% of a full burst...

But, generally, I know it's there, I'm pretty sure this is how it works, and I know 100% that it does not apply to pvm.

I was also told, that only the first bolt of a burst cannot break the "You cannot kill a player in one hit" rule, the other 2 or 3 bolts(bullets) can...

Judge

31-08-03, 23:41

10 20 damage? Damn how do you do that. I have been trying to get a good cons/armour setup for ages.... still no luck. :(

Dream

31-08-03, 23:42

The liberator should be taken back to 30% especially now that death is only server side, so u cant die from a yoyo.

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:43

heh, dude, in full defence mode (that generally means concentrating on nothing but, and the only thing I could do to lessen the damage further is run heals at the same time..), I take 38(fir) or 42(xrr) from a full burst, all to the head, no AoE....

I know this game... :p

I can think of only one PE with better defence.

Liberator remains at 20 atm, the other weapons were brought down to 28 (PE/CS).

Uh......... They tried to boost liberator by boosting it's "Base damage" numbers...

Judge

31-08-03, 23:45

Argh...

ok one question. Do the armour resist points = natural resist points one for one?

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:46

If Lib was boosted back to 28% then it would become overpowered again since they changed the base damage, as QD said. But if you want to see Libby tanks again...

EDIT: And note that this was against a fellow tank, with whom I was trying to figure out resists, not a final setup after months of work. :p

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:48

No, Judge, but the difference is so small you can hardly notice.

Scikar - I don't want a 28% burst bonus either, that's one thing I have never asked for :p

24% would be cool though (if the damage bonuses the liberator has recieved in recent patches was removed, 24% would be a very marginal, but still noticable increase in damage in PvP only, not PvM...).

Heh, Scikar, try it again sometime... in controlled conditions, preferably with a liberator instead of a CS...

You'll notice why sometimes people joke about punching others to death with the lib.
because if only one bullet from a lib burst hits..... you see a single digit number come off peoples heads (Single fucking digit!) -_-

Dribble Joy

31-08-03, 23:50

QD is right.

Burst and ray weapons own atm. Pitty libby got nerfed, but then the little amount of dex needed to reach it meant that the users were too tough for it's insane dmg (health bounce bug, whatever)
Ray guns were only good after the patch that made them oob4r at close range.
Black sun probably does less dmg (just) than the judge, but it's RoF is alot higher.

@ der Ed, I have 70+ atl/agl I have an SA, I do use redflash to use the judge though as I also use a PP chip, that drug lasts as long as my buffs and poking tl115 feuls my addiction.
(redflash is very annoying, -10 HTL is painfull, I loose about 40+ hp when I use the stuff)

//edit
dammit people post while im posting grrrr i hate dial up now i have to read all that shit and reply to it as well grrrrrrrrr

Judge

31-08-03, 23:51

Hmm.... Maybe I'm just shit but I think that Libby PE vs Pain Easer PE it is quite balanced atm (I'm the Rifle PE btw :p).

Not saying that Rifle vs Pistol is balanced, just PE vs Lib.

Dream

31-08-03, 23:52

Originally posted by Judge
Hmm.... Maybe I'm just shit but I think that Libby PE vs Pain Easer PE it is quite balanced atm (I'm the Rifle PE btw :p).

Not saying that Rifle vs Pistol is balanced, just PE vs Lib.

Ya but RoG pe will rox any pistol pe unless hes using a blacksun...

Convenient how the rare raygun rifle is tl98 and the rare raygun pistol is tl107

yay...

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:53

heh, it's *almost* possible to outheal PE damage in full defence mode (almost means I come about 10-15hp per tick/shot short).
Providing one condition (that I wont mention) is met.
Typically, a PE Burst will only do 10-20 damage to me if all three bullets hit...

edit;
hehe, dream, very very true.
RoG PE > All atm(AFAIK?).
Drugged RoLH PEs can potentially beat the 99-100% RoG PEs though.

I know of a pair of PEs just like that :p

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:53

Personally I think it's close enough for now. Lib doesn't tickle any more, it at least hurts a bit. Start boosting the Lib any more and things like Pain Easer are going to look very badly underpowered. The difference between weapons is small enough that it's only going to be balanced by a serious patch dedicated to that purpose. And Lupus is apparently revamping the whole weapons system, hopefully doing something about the specialisation system while he's at it, but I think it's safe to say that considering he has access to all this information the final result is going to be about as close to perfect as we'll get. So asking for a burst now is kinda pointless really until we know what's going to be changed.

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:54

Originally posted by Dream
Ya but RoG pe will rox any pistol pe unless hes using a blacksun...

Convenient how the rare raygun rifle is tl98 and the rare raygun pistol is tl107

yay...

But the rare plasma pistol is tl100 while the rare plasma rifle is tl114. What's your point?

Judge

31-08-03, 23:55

So a boost for the Lib and PE.... WOOHOO. :D

Oh and a CS nerf. Tanks need to know what it feels like :p

Scikar

31-08-03, 23:56

Originally posted by Judge
Oh and a CS nerf. Tanks need to know what it feels like :p

Don't even think about it. :p

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 23:59

lol, Judge > FL imo anyway....

About balance:
I tend to agree with Lupus' oppinions on things, most of the time he thinks things through logically, and uses facts, rather than second hand oppinions to make his arguments.

A few times Lupus has asked me something, or for a general oppinion on something and then gone to test/examine that, and come back with his own commentary on it, most of the time his results can be looked on as supplimentary to mine...since they don't often conflict on anything except fine details... (if it's about something I know anyway...there are things I have to guess about until tested).

Generally, if lupus says I'm wrong about something, it's because he's gone, and tested, and knows first hand.
I rarely argue with him (infact I can't ever remember arguing with him o_O).
The class/weapon balance is in hands that could get no better.
As far as I am concerned, anyway....

Oh yea (Edit; )
If I had a suggestion to boost lib, it would be the accuracy of the burst that would be boosted, nothing else.
Damage/RoF/Range/Whatever boosting the lib = bad idea from here.
I would infact, not mind if liberators damage was (slightly) reduced, in favour of such a change.

Shadow Dancer

01-09-03, 00:01

Originally posted by Dream
The liberator should be taken back to 30% especially now that death is only server side, so u cant die from a yoyo.

It may be a selfish reason, but I don't want it back to it's "full glory" until they fix the yoyo health for real. My apu gets his legs crippled in 1 second because the lib hits so fast AND the yoyo bug thinks it's doign like a bajillion damage to me, so I get "prematurely" crippled and slowed down until it pops back up and i run full speed again. The problme is all it takes is 1-2 seconds of "premature slowdown" to allow my foe to land a billion more bursts easily.

Originally posted by Scikar
Personally I think it's close enough for now. Lib doesn't tickle any more, it at least hurts a bit. Start boosting the Lib any more and things like Pain Easer are going to look very badly underpowered. The difference between weapons is small enough that it's only going to be balanced by a serious patch dedicated to that purpose. And Lupus is apparently revamping the whole weapons system, hopefully doing something about the specialisation system while he's at it, but I think it's safe to say that considering he has access to all this information the final result is going to be about as close to perfect as we'll get. So asking for a burst now is kinda pointless really until we know what's going to be changed.

I don't understand why the lib needs to be sooooooooo powerful. I mean how many more fucking "boosts" does it need? You already need very little weapon lore for it, it's low TL, and you can run at fullspeed with it. WTF do people want, CS damage?

Jesus.

Helen Angilley

01-09-03, 00:07

Liberator was never powerful.

It was just bugged.

Dribble Joy

01-09-03, 00:07

People just want it to hit on the odd occation.

Scikar

01-09-03, 00:12

While reducing the damage but at the same time fixing the aiming would probably be better, I hope you realise that it would mean people who can hit with 95% of their shots with a Lib will suddenly find themselves doing less damage. If I was you I wouldn't risk letting the gun be sent back to the nerf pit again, I'd just keep my mouth shut and fight with it while I still could. But that's just me, some people might prefer to ask for a little bit more, then a little bit more, then a little bit more until they suddenly get a nerf. :p

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 00:17

Even I, can never get 4 bullet burst hits (EVER) in actual combat.
3 Bullet burst hits are semi-rare too, 2 bullet burst hits = normal.

This is typical combat performance against good, non-PA Tanks, or Pistol/Rifle PEs.

This is the reason I use TEP/BlackSun/Judge/Ryker Napalm as Primary weapons, Liberator, was never my "Signature weapon" (Only immediately after the runspeed AGL Nerf was I pure Lib) My favourite pistol ryker napalm.

Scikar

01-09-03, 00:21

Though you do say yourself that you have a defensive setup, where you concentrate mostly on staying alive, right? I mean, someone with a little less defence might possibly work on their aiming a bit more? Anyway I've always agreed that pistols have an aiming issue that needs to be addressed, whether it's something worth asking for, given the risk of an overall damage boost with it, is something for you to evaluate.

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 00:26

My aiming with lib is somewhat erratic, compared to my use of other pistols...not sure why, plasma I often hit 100% of the time...
the unfortunate thing with me, is something I'm painfully aware of, after playing FS for 7 years, and other games that require insanely fast reaction speeds... I am a twitch player, it is my instinct to fire the gun the moment the reticle pops up, it is why I am pistols, and why I am not "the best tank" even with one of the very best tank setups.

so with liberator, the only time I get much of the burst to connect is when I can keep the reticle on the player, primarily, with the other weapons I use, I do concentrate on my own movement, and my own survival (I like to play very 2v1, or the highest I've been up to and actually collected kills is 8 vs 1, and actually *tried* to fight 15 vs 1 :p), therefore with the other weapons, and using twitch, I make my damage....

Liberator is pretty much reserved for people who cannot dodge (because lib > blacksun for pvp damage if libs bursts hit reliably..)
I ain't perfect :p
My own style of play, I imagine to be different from the other people who play cron... it's just what's natural to me...

Edit:
This is also why I'm insanely good at tribes2/FS/UT2K3 when I had it, and most other FPS without even needing natural training to the game (including CS, I play sporadically(monthly at best) and still beat out a decent performance).

Scikar

01-09-03, 00:31

Sounds like you would make a good monk. :p

What's your char on Pluto btw, assuming you still play there?

Oh and I take back my statement of "I've always agreed that pistols have an aiming issue that needs to be addressed" and would like to insert: "Since I played my pistol PE again a little to refresh my memory" which was several months ago, when me and you were locked in a heated debate of CS vs Lib. :)

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 00:34

heh :p
Rifle PE on Pluto...need to LoM Really....... :P

I was rifles originally on Uranus too....

As for monk, I am leveling a PPU, atm, we've been in CRP Caves, lol, I was in there with a /33 hybrid PPU (Yea still had APU only LoMed today), I managed to heal one of my APU friends as he was running around going "ahhhhh gonna die" on team sound, heh, he's like "wtf...how'd you heal me like that...? I'm runnin around like a nut" but I kept doing it.. so... looks like I'd be a good ppu or apu.... :P

I seem to suck, badly, with rifles and cannons though o_O

Scikar

01-09-03, 00:43

I'm OK with all of them I suppose, pistols I've never had much practice with, rifles I like because they aim better than cannons (and the fact that I never won a 4vs1 as my HC tank unlike a little fight I had with my rifle PE kinda decides which one I prefer :p). I have an apu monk and I usually do pretty well in fights with him too, though I often find my spells fizzling a lot until I realise my mana pool is empty/I have SI and can't runcast.

I keep missing Pluto Fight Night and I issed the PvP event on Saturn, so while I do fairly well in duels I've never really fought the elite, though I'm fairly sure I'm not one of them. :)

Ryuben

01-09-03, 04:17

lol u know what i found funny about this :P, well i don't care im going to tell u any way, saw a capped tank running about (on a PE) and decided to kill him he stops to loot so i dmg boost him and attack him,stealth off and snipe him from range and kill him :D im happy he then comes back again more fair fight i stealth a bit but win, again happy comes back 5 mins later but with a pistol pe.

8|
and my oh my we spent about 15 mins fighting and he was doing _alot_ better on this char hitting me more offten, getting off good shots, etc, so maybe its the guns that affect peoples aiming, or maybe its how people think they should be played, bah leave u to decide

CR@SH

01-09-03, 04:32

Well i just recently started using pistols and i gotta say that its gotta be the best class in my opinion. I mean we can run fast, our aiming reticle closes fast, fast rate of fire on all of guns, ammo and guns are very lightweight, i mean the list goes on and on. We have so many advantages as pistol users i think the libby is fine where it is at right now.

Sleawer

01-09-03, 04:54

In my opinion a pistol PE needs an aproach tool; if he get's my monk in close distance, it might be a fair duel, with advantages for him.. but if I get him from distance, he is totally fucked unless he has stealth to come near me, because my 3 first HL's gonna land in his feet.

I think the pistol PE is well balanced, so are his weapons. A better aiming could be handy in close quarters.

VetteroX

01-09-03, 05:22

Thx for explaining my point QD and shadow. So many stupid people in this game who belive the are good... I havnt lost to another PE yet ( best out of 3,5,7 or whatever) while using liberator, and no tank has yet beaten more me more times then ive beaten them while using lib. With blacksun though, it was just no contest, I WAS THE ONE USING BLACKSUN. I know, beucause i have a sense of reason and fairness, that it was a little unfair when I was beating tanks that I KNOW are very good with 300 hp left. BS was just too damn good, i felt no sense of accomplishment winning with it.

Like i said, every class gets to exploit sometime. If you wanna ride the raygun train as long as you can, go ahead, wins are wins, especially in pking. But, YOUR personal skill wont be whats winning, it will be your blacksun winning for you.

And RoG pes dont own pistol pes, I beat the last rog pe I fought with my lib, and yes, they are considered good, not some random nooblet.

Beefheart

01-09-03, 05:35

I can't believe no one has commented on the new rare on the test server, it owns everything hands down. It's called "David's Slingshot" (aka: "Now we gettin' biblical on yo ass") and it's the new must-have for the well heeled Pistol PE.

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 05:38

o_O

Scikar

01-09-03, 06:22

Originally posted by VetteroX
Thx for explaining my point QD and shadow. So many stupid people in this game who belive the are good... I havnt lost to another PE yet ( best out of 3,5,7 or whatever) while using liberator, and no tank has yet beaten more me more times then ive beaten them while using lib. With blacksun though, it was just no contest, I WAS THE ONE USING BLACKSUN. I know, beucause i have a sense of reason and fairness, that it was a little unfair when I was beating tanks that I KNOW are very good with 300 hp left. BS was just too damn good, i felt no sense of accomplishment winning with it.

Like i said, every class gets to exploit sometime. If you wanna ride the raygun train as long as you can, go ahead, wins are wins, especially in pking. But, YOUR personal skill wont be whats winning, it will be your blacksun winning for you.

And RoG pes dont own pistol pes, I beat the last rog pe I fought with my lib, and yes, they are considered good, not some random nooblet.

This will always be the case. Remember when hybrids ruled the world? You'd step out of your apartment as a tank, and meet a parashock beam the moment you opened the door, then a damage boost, then poison stack after poison stack, and afterwards you'd get a dm from the guy telling you how much better he is. It was exactly the same situation, people winning fights through the power of their class, not through any skill, and then they all felt so hurt when they finally got nerfed. Fortunately the BlackSun isn't as overpowered as the combination of holy deflector/heal/shelter with beams, but the effect is the same.

Shadow Dancer

01-09-03, 08:28

I've been hit by blacksun and by Rolh several times, I never thought it was overpowered. Hrmmm. Then again i'm weak vs force, so lib always was ON TOP in terms of pistol damage against me. I never really observed blacksun vs other classes.

der Ed

01-09-03, 20:58

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
QD is right.
@ der Ed, I have 70+ atl/agl I have an SA, I do use redflash to use the judge though as I also use a PP chip, that drug lasts as long as my buffs and poking tl115 feuls my addiction.
(redflash is very annoying, -10 HTL is painfull, I loose about 40+ hp when I use the stuff)

That's one part that makes a PE setup much easier and I probably wont ever call my own. :(