Are the NC players killing the game? [Archive]

Oath

30-08-03, 21:31

Personally the thought of being a volunteer Gm sounds great. until i spoke to foucault, he told me i would have to move to a different server, would be constantly monitored etc. Aside from that i dont really have much patience for ignorance, and on thw whole, a lot of the community are very ignorant, try to remember that the gms, mostly are volunteers, they are also players and understand the shit we have to cope with, and yet every nite i hear over the help channels, 'runnerx' NEED A FUCKING GM. 5 seconds later 'runnerx' WHERE ARE YOU FUCKING GM WANKERS ARE YOU FUKING *insert crude phrase here*.

This is bullshit, no wonder we dont see gms often, i dont know what happened to foucault, he was a good guy, he took an interest in what WE the community thought, he even gave me a few PVP tips, answered all my questions and was very fucking nice to people. My ex-clan got a bollocking over the MC5 zone, apparently they were exploiting, i dm'd fou, and spoke to him, said he was busy, 10 mins later he appeared next to me and explained EXACTLY what happened. This guy is a volunteer and the Shit some of the assholes involved gave him was shocking, i genuinely felt embarassed to be part of the community.

Also over the recent callash shit, get a fucking life, the guy is trying, one min you say YAY callash is great, the next he is an asshole etc for simply giving us stats on unfinished unfinalised armor. o_O .

this is why i left 2 months ago the community is going to hell in a handbasket, most older players have left and are being replaced by little *insert flame word here*

I apologise for the language and terminology used, mods feel free to edit it with no hard feelings on my part.

Oath.

Tazo

30-08-03, 21:32

Originally posted by KimmyG
Yes I only enjoy spending time in a event for a reward.
You dont get it, do you? if you leave out the events if it isnt for endure them for a reward, all this game provides is clanwars and leveling. And if you want that, go play diablo 2, it has a much better leveling and equipment system.

KimmyG

30-08-03, 21:34

Originally posted by Tazo
You dont get it, do you? if you leave out the events if it isnt for endure them for a reward, all this game provides is clanwars and leveling. And if you want that, go play diablo 2, it has a much better leveling and equipment system.

Good call fight 1 million cows or mephisto and bail and never die and enjoy every item being a duped item.

And if its role play no one should have a problem with TG slaughtering ever runner in the area? does event time mean the war between the city and TG stops?

Judge

30-08-03, 21:35

Originally posted by stigmata

If they dont like what happenes tell them not to bother, its not like the events are even remotely interesting or fun, they are just pure lagfest with the NC groupies saying how interested they are.

No offence or anything stig, but I didn't see you down at the OZ station. So don't say how uninteresting the event was if you weren't there.

I'm not a KK fanboi but I found that the event was really good... the GMs got it started and then the players finished it. I think that it went swimmingly.

Also I agree Oath, I wish that some of the old guys were still around.... and the ones that are don't post on the forums any more. Preferring to stay in the background.

Oath

30-08-03, 21:37

Originally posted by Eckel
But what happens when the GM give as good as they get ?!!?(verbal)

I'll tell ya what happens.........The player comes on to the forum and posts how GM should'nt talk to paying customers like that....

Its a no win situation......

Sorry for the double post, but good on the gms giving as good as they get, some people treat them like their own personal bitches, also Gms are also paying customers are they not? isnt that what a VOLUNTEER does? works for little or no reward? well if you count being belittled, getting bollocked and threatened a reward then yes i suppose gms must be very rich indeed.

Bitch and moan all you like but when someon returns it you whine about (and i quote) "were paying customers they shouldnt talk to us like that!!!" um, first of all 'Karma' basically what goes around comes around, and a little thing called respect.

Let the flames begin.

Oath.

Helen Angilley

30-08-03, 21:38

Originally posted by KimmyG
And if its role play no one should have a problem with TG slaughtering ever runner in the area? does event time mean the war between the city and TG stops?

The Twilight Guardian are freedom fighters, not mindless twats.

KimmyG

30-08-03, 21:40

Originally posted by Helen Angilley
The Twilight Guardian are freedom fighters, not mindless twats.

Your right next event I slap on some flowers and preech love for all city and noncity :)

Judge

30-08-03, 21:42

Oh how hiliarous Kimmy.

We are Freedom fighters, that means that we fight. Just within our own moral code and against enemies who we percive as being dictators. That doesn't mean wearing flowers and having peacefull protests (though I would love to have a peaceful protest outside the CA HQ).

Helen Angilley

30-08-03, 21:43

Originally posted by Judge
Oh how hiliarous Kimmy.

We are Freedom fighters, that means that we fight. Just within our own moral code and against enemies who we percive as being dictators. That doesn't mean wearing flowers and having peacefull protests (though I would love to have a peaceful protest outside the CA HQ).

That was tried before, as an Event no less....

Funnily enough, except for maybe two people no-one turned up. I believe it was the TG Faction Counsellor that said the following:

"Maybe if it was a _raid_ on the CA HQ I would've gotten dozens of Runners willing to play...needless to say, this has made me wonder why I bothered in the first place."

Sad, really.

KimmyG

30-08-03, 21:43

Oath

30-08-03, 21:43

Originally posted by KimmyG
Your right next event I slap on some flowers and preech love for all city and noncity :)

Then proto pharma is the faction for you :D :lol: :D

the gms cant win, if its not the gms its kk, if its not kk its the gms.

The reason why things fail is because of us. (though MC5 helps :lol: :lol: )

Oath.

Tazo

30-08-03, 21:44

Originally posted by Judge
Oh how hiliarous Kimmy.

We are Freedom fighters, that means that we fight. Just within our own moral code and against enemies who we percive as being dictators. That doesn't mean wearing flowers and having peacefull protests (though I would love to have a peaceful protest outside the CA HQ).
no no, you got that wrong. being TG means PKing everything you see, sexing the dead corpse and spamming over direct with "lololololololol" "nooblet" and "i had sex with ur mom".

:rolleyes:

Hippieman

30-08-03, 21:47

Originally posted by Tazo
no no, you got that wrong. being TG means PKing everything you see, sexing the dead corpse and spamming over direct with "lololololololol" "nooblet" and "i had sex with ur mom".

:rolleyes:

If only we could get those dumbasses out of our TG faction, we could truly help to liberate Neocron. And not by PKing, by evidence of Reza's evil deeds etc etc.

Oath

30-08-03, 21:47

Originally posted by Tazo
no no, you got that wrong. being TG means PKing everything you see, sexing the dead corpse and spamming over direct with "lololololololol"
"nooblet" and "i had sex with ur mom".

:rolleyes:

HAHAHAHAH seems to be what all the noobs and idiots think lol, TG spots a city runner "OMG OMG OMG KOS KOS KOS City admin i must kill you and have sex with your drom"

CITY player spots a TG player "OMG OMG OMG OGM KOS KOS KOS TG I must kill you and have sex with your drom!"

Cant blame one faction and not the other lol, i urge everyone to READ their history for the factions.

Remember Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

Oath.

Breschau

30-08-03, 21:48

Originally posted by Helen Angilley
That was tried before, as an Event no less....

Funnily enough, except for maybe two people no-one turned up. I believe it was the TG Faction Counsellor that said the following:

"Maybe if it was a _raid_ on the CA HQ I would've gotten dozens of Runners willing to play...needless to say, this has made me wonder why I bothered in the first place."

Sad, really.

Just to check I'm understanding this: the TG Faction Counsellor tried to organise a peaceful protest outside (or inside?) CA HQ?

Unless I misjudge my NC history and factions, that'd quickly end with the TG protestors being either a) executed on the spot, or b) arrested and taken away for interrogation, possibly never to be seen again. By the story anyway. By gameplay mechanics it'd probably mean buffing and healing while CA guards shoot at them. Either way, I can understand why a raid would go down better with the TG population.

Helen Angilley

30-08-03, 21:49

Originally posted by Breschau
Just to check I'm understanding this: the TG Faction Counsellor tried to organise a peaceful protest outside (or inside?) CA HQ?

Yup, as well as peaceful propaganda over Plaza 1.

If they were exceuted or attacked then, in effect, that would be justifying their protest and "showing up" Reza's regime.

Breschau

30-08-03, 21:54

Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Yup, as well as peaceful propaganda over Plaza 1.

If they were exceuted or attacked then, in effect, that would be justifying their protest and "showing up" Reza's regime.

Once they're all dead or in prison, 'evidence' is released showing the protesters actually had a large amount of explosives with them. CA officials are still interrogating the survivors to determine whether this was a planned suicide bombing or if the protest itself was simply a diversion while a small group planted the explosives in strategic locations. Fortunately the quick actions of the City Admin security forces saved the people of neocron from what would have been a very tragic loss of life. For the people, for Reza, for Neocron! (or whatever that little chant is).

I was under the distinct impression that Reza basically does as he pleases. They can always plant or invent evidence to show that their actions were justified. Anyone that's skeptical will mostly keep it to themselves as they don't want to disappear shortly after voicing their concerns. Pretty sure I've seen some evidence of that kind of attitude in one of the epics (I think it was TT), as well as the general backstory.

KimmyG

30-08-03, 21:56

I say kill the runners when there young hit up the aggy cellars so none will support CA in there war against us. Then a vitory will be easy.

Helen Angilley

30-08-03, 21:57

Originally posted by Breschau
Once they're all dead or in prison, 'evidence' is released showing the protesters actually had a large amount of explosives with them. CA officials are still interrogating the survivors to determine whether this was a planned suicide bombing or if the protest itself was simply a diversion while a small group planted the explosives in strategic locations. Fortunately the quick actions of the City Admin security forces saved the people of neocron from what would have been a very tragic loss of life. For the people, for Reza, for Neocron! (or whatever that little chant is).

I was under the distinct impression that Reza basically does as he pleases. They can always plant or invent evidence to show that their actions were justified. Anyone that's skeptical will mostly keep it to themselves as they don't want to disappear shortly after voicing their concerns. Pretty sure I've seen some evidence of that kind of attitude in one of the epics (I think it was TT), as well as the general backstory.

Well either way, the Counsellor did have a point.

As I said, only two people turned up for the protest.

Now look at the raid on the Tangent meeting....two dozen Runners turned up to "crash" it despite them never supposed to be there in the first place (One person took it upon themselves to fuck things up for their own personal enjoyment), what was even funnier is that a lot of the characters who "crashed" the meeting were alts of people who said they would provide security.

:rolleyes:

But this isn't the place to discuss it.

Tazo

30-08-03, 21:59

Hey! This thread is supposed to be a flamefest, not some roleplay-thing! :(

;) :lol:

Breschau

30-08-03, 22:01

Originally posted by Tazo
Hey! This thread is supposed to be a flamefest, not some roleplay-thing! :(

;) :lol:

Uh, Ok.

You smell like broccoli!

Hippieman

30-08-03, 22:01

Originally posted by Tazo
Hey! This thread is supposed to be a flamefest, not some roleplay-thing! :(

;) :lol:

We've had enough flamefest to last us all a lifetime. Now spam fest we have not.:D

Tazo

30-08-03, 22:02

Originally posted by Breschau
Uh, Ok.

You smell like broccoli!
*feels all warm and fuzzy inside*

Thanks, you doody head.

Shadow Dancer

30-08-03, 22:04

There will be players like that in every mmorpg. And not every player does that.

There.

Eckel

30-08-03, 22:17

Originally posted by Oath
Sorry for the double post, but good on the gms giving as good as they get, some people treat them like their own personal bitches, also Gms are also paying customers are they not? isnt that what a VOLUNTEER does? works for little or no reward? well if you count being belittled, getting bollocked and threatened a reward then yes i suppose gms must be very rich indeed.

Bitch and moan all you like but when someon returns it you whine about (and i quote) "were paying customers they shouldnt talk to us like that!!!" um, first of all 'Karma' basically what goes around comes around, and a little thing called respect.

Let the flames begin.

Oath.

It was a example...........i dont bitch i dont moan..........but i've seen it on the forums/irc/ingame............

So tbh there was no need for you to quote me :o ...
Also why post "Let the flames begin"......is that for my bennifit?......i dont flame.......not my style ;)

Oath

30-08-03, 22:53

Originally posted by Eckel
It was a example...........i dont bitch i dont moan..........but i've seen it on the forums/irc/ingame............

So tbh there was no need for you to quote me :o ...
Also why post "Let the flames begin"......is that for my bennifit?......i dont flame.......not my style ;)

Sorry for the confusion eckel wasnt aimed at you. :) aimed at the selective group of greifers , exploiters , moanes. bitchers etc. from what oive seen you havent bitched therefore it wasnt aimed at yuo =)

Ans the "let the flames begin" quote was aimed at those who feel im an asshole, who no doubt will begin to flame me. not at you.

SAorry again

MrBane

30-08-03, 23:35

I believe, strongly, that it's a two-way fuckup.

Reakktor (Read: Reakktor, not GM's. GM's only do what their paid managers tell them to do.) are ruining this game for us, by not providing enough content, enough purpose, enough RP.

Players (Read: A majority, but not all) are ruining this game, because they are nothing other than little vengeful balls of hate and spite. They verbally abuse GM's when they try to help, they log moronic Support Requests which a bit of common sense could fix, they scream h4x and exploiter at every given opportunity, because they can't understand that someone is better than them, they constantly moan about lack of Events, then when one appears, they run in and PK everyone and anyone, they refuse to co-operate to improve the game system by offering coherent, detailed and inventful suggestions or ideas, and constantly expect everything to be handed to them on a plate.

Callash.. Great guy, has ideas and potential. He introduces NPC's to the city, that serve no real purpose, but add a bit of reality to the game, and give it a bit of life and style. Sure, some of them may steal your money (Read: You're stupid enough to give them it), but it's better than nothing.

What happens? People insult him for his shitty effort. Well, it's a damn sight more effort than I've seen from anyone else. It also has a permanent exposure to all players, as opposed to some obscure storyline.

Now if the NPC's actually said something useful, then we'd be onto a winner. Give it time though, eh?

So what do we do?

Are we going to continue to insult and slate all efforts from Reakktor to improve the game, or are we going to continually avoid offering any good suggestions of our own?

Yet again, it works both ways. I know we have put hundreds of brilliant ideas into Brainport, which are ignored.

I myself did a massive post on Outpost Wars and Soul-Light. Both were by and large ignored, even though the people that read them, acknowledge they were fantastic ideas.
To this day, I still see people posting variants of my ideas up, and it's so frustrating.

I used to Proof-Read for NEMA, and have just finished my offer of commitment to it, because of various reasons. It was the least I could do. (Oh, I noticed someone congratulated it.. The NEXT Vehicle article in last months was written by myself. :) )
So it wasn't much, but I put a bit of effort in to improve one of Reakktors ideas. It meant the magazine read better with less translatory errors and suchlike.

How many people however, are willing to bitch, moan, squeal and cry, yet never think to put a little bit back in?

Okay, so lets look at it this way.

Whenever you sign up for anything in the form of a Membership, you are entitled to certain functions & services, which should be clearly defined before you sign up.
Once you are a Member, if the organisation, at any point, fails to provide, you would be legally entitled to cancel your contract and walk away.
However, if they are failing to provide, you can certainly bring it to their attention, and suggest that they rectify it.

Yet what do you do, if the service you are getting, is what you were told you would, yet there have always been promises of so much more?

Do you leave and come back a year later to see if it's been improved?
Do you try to assist to bring those promises to reaity?
Or do you become the chicken in the loaf of bread story?

This story for those that don't know it, goes like this:
Oh, and don't ask me why it involves farm animals.

A chicken wants to make a loaf of bread. It asks all the animals for help, but they all say no.
Once the loaf is baked and ready to eat, all the animals that refused to help make it, now want a bit of it.
The chicken, rightly so, tells them to get to fuck.

:D

So why don't we try and help more?
Because on that note, we've paid our money, and shouldn't have to help to make it better.
Yet common sense, and a bit of swallowing the pride that may be causing us this belief, would allow us to say..
"You know, I think I might just offer a hand in this, this or even see if I can do this."

It benefits all of us, yet, again, most of us aren't wanting to do this.

I cancelled my account at the start of this week.
Why?
Well, I've helped in various guises, and I'm sick, totally, sick of it.
Faction Counsellor idea was a joke, and I was heavily involved in that. I have to say, that drained a lot out of me. NEMA is great fun, but if I'm not in the game, I'm not going to work out articles and edited submitted content. Makes sense really.

So where do I go from here? Well, I'm going to come back in precisely one year, to see how it's changed. Meanwhile, I'm simply going to try another game. Thinking Eve.

I've tried, I've helped, and through everything I've seen, the one big obstacle in the way of proress, is a certain chunk of the Player base.

Honestly, think about it... With a bit of serious organisation, serious writing and controlled debate, I am positive we could have Reakktor doing so much more for us, and for the game.

Instead, we have NERF threads screaming repentant vengeance, and we have idiotic posts slating one another, or implemented systems. Yet all these complaints are rarely backed up with solid ideas or reccomendations.

So whilst for the most part, you're all good people, I say to some.. Get off your high horse, pull your finger out your arse, take part and help, or fuck off.

I'll see you all in a year, though I'll be floating around until my current six month period expires.. Sometime end of September I believe.

It's been fun, but more often at the later stages, it's simply been upsetting.

Oath

31-08-03, 00:38

Goodbye mr bane, thanks for your help in all its guises, and i agree that there are two sides to everything, but to be honest i can no longer see the communitys side.

i hope you enjoy eve :( .

oath.

IronMonkey

31-08-03, 01:10

Originally posted by MrBane

Players (Read: A majority, but not all) are ruining this game, because they are nothing other than little vengeful balls of hate and spite. They verbally abuse GM's when they try to help, they log moronic Support Requests which a bit of common sense could fix, they scream h4x and exploiter at every given opportunity, because they can't understand that someone is better than them, they constantly moan about lack of Events, then when one appears, they run in and PK everyone and anyone, they refuse to co-operate to improve the game system by offering coherent, detailed and inventful suggestions or ideas, and constantly expect everything to be handed to them on a plate.

Cannot agree with you more. The game style and light hand of kk allows for these types of players to flurish and bloom though. they believe that it is allowed and condoned therefor supported by KK. So they do it more and more and more in spite of the fact that it ruins alot of other peoples experiances. They don't care that it does this since they believe that the game was built for them only. So whenever someone with a different approach to the game steps forward they are flamed into non existence. The good players and good people who sit and try to ahve fun even when within clans and teams with certain players also get the brunt of the burden. And usually end up getting bored faster than normal because all they ever get is bitched at. In which also forces them to leave. To me one of the main things that will solve this is for KK to wake up and understand that they need to wield the ban hammer a little more freely. You may loose 30 or 40 customers in the process but the ones u retain and gain will make it more flurishing. Allowing some people to do what they do in spite of others is justa foolish decision.

I could go on and on about some of the bad bad mistakes KK has made ind ealign with problems and issues, but i wont because it is detrimental to the community. I only hope that KK wakes up soon and realizes that there are alot of players who love both RP and pvp and this game enough to stick around with flame retardent outfits on hoping you guys will wake up some day and restore a bit of control to your worlds.

cracky

31-08-03, 01:15

LIDLSDOLOLOL PLAYERS AND GMS ARE THE SAME PEOPLE

MrBane

31-08-03, 01:37

LIDLSDOLOLOL PLAYERS AND GMS ARE THE SAME PEOPLE

What's your point?

When they are Players, then they are Players.
When they are GM's, then they are GM's.

You're just an unhelpful poster whom would do better by finding something else to spend his time on.

Seriously, your post is a prime example of the kind of people that are ruining this game.

Alex Mars

31-08-03, 02:08

" I only hope that KK wakes up soon and realizes that there are alot of players who love both RP and pvp and this game enough to stick around with flame retardent outfits on hoping you guys will wake up some day and restore a bit of control to your worlds."

Well, as to the PvP, I don't see a lot of point to it. I come from the PvP subculture that believes that any game that allows you to level up on AI monsters and then go out and PvP is basically not a real PvP game, it gives the advantage to the catass that sits all day on his computer camping monsters. "Real" PvP is found in games without levels. Be it Tribes 2 or Delta Force, the outcome depends on player skill and not time spent levelling up. I like NC for the cyberpunk atmosphere and fun gameplay, when I want challenging PvP I'll play PlanetSide (which may have its flaws but still gives no advantage for time spent levelling up).

The other flaw with PvP is that it seems to be only worth getting into when you are high level, there seems to be no PvP role for anyone in the low or middle combat levels except bullet catcher and ambush victim.

Reakktor also lets problems fester too long (not a surprise for most of you, I know). I read in the Announcement forum that they will have a system to allow or refuse resurrection, that is nice but why wasn't it in the game a long time ago? UO demonstrated the need for this back in 1998, how did Reakktor overlook this? Adding to the problem is the hands off policy that allows res-killing until such time as they get around to putting in the res acceptance window. It seems that it is OK to grief other players this way until Reakktor gets around to implementing a fix.

Marx

31-08-03, 02:17

MrBane, all your points are valid and I agree with them all.

I'm sorry that you're going to be taking a year off from NC

:(

MrBane pwnzerd yous all.

Talios

31-08-03, 02:22

Originally posted by KimmyG
Get new GM's then. I for one really wouldn't care about what others do or say about me or what I do and there are other like me. GM's take some lip and cant support cause there busy crying?

Eh sorry to hear that man...

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 02:23

Where's Kriminal99 and his "you can't have an opinion because it's just what someone else posted with the words changed!!!" crap? o_O

He's several hours late, dammit.

cobrajay157

31-08-03, 02:24

players dont ruin the game people name helen ruins the game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Marx

31-08-03, 02:32

You know, I'm just gonna say this, because frankly it irratates me.

I'm willing to bet most of those people that play this game are under the age of 18 and used a parents credit card or money to pay for their account.

But even for those over that age.

What ever happened to respect? Do you go to work or school and tell the teachers or co-workers to fuck him or herself when they try to help you with limited resources?

Just because you pay doesn't give you the right to be a complete fucktard to those who are bound by contract to support you.

Hell, if people were more polite and only went called on support and shite when it was needed, we wouldn't have half of the rules we dislike now (100k to 500k payoff for lost equipment depending on how much is lost). People take advantage of this stuff, others complain, then you know what? These rules get put in place.

If people were simply polite, we'd have more events, better reimbursment systems, and all in all better relations with all those put in question in this thread.

People with their holier than thou' art, "my shit doesn't stink" attitude have 'caused things to be the way they are. You want change, start acting like human beings instead of acting like an asshole and hiding behind the anonymity provided by your computer.

players dont ruin the game people name helen ruins the game !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

She puts in more constructive material than you Mr. GiGs.

cracky

31-08-03, 03:01

No mr.bane that's not so at all, when they are gms they are still the same person they are as a player. I don't know why so many people actually think that volunteer gms wouldn't try to further their own clans and characters. Playing neocron is worse then a public cs server.

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 03:04

Originally posted by cracky
No mr.bane that's not so at all, when they are gms they are still the same person they are as a player. I don't know why so many people actually think that volunteer gms wouldn't try to further their own clans and characters. Playing neocron is worse then a public cs server.

Newsflash love, every action a GM takes is logged.

Only a few GMs have the power to spawn and de-spawn items, creatures....etc.

And of _course_ Neocron is going to be worse than "a public CS server" when people such as yourself are around.

cracky

31-08-03, 03:04

Newsflash that's a KK lie to make people stop from seeing it.

Marx

31-08-03, 03:06

Only a few GMs have the power to spawn and de-spawn items, creatures....etc.

And if I'm not mistaken that course of action was taken after people complained about the possible impropriety of certain characters and clans with supposed GM backing.

I swear, when people lose its always someone elses fault.

Pop a go-pill, drink some Jolt and try again. Maybe the extra twitch will win your second battle.

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 03:07

Originally posted by cracky
Newsflash that's a KK lie to make people stop from seeing it.

Much like the frequent lies you spout out? ;)

Marx:
Yup, pretty much.

MrBane

31-08-03, 03:13

Two quick points:

1: The money offered for reimbursment, is perfectly fair.
Just because you paid two million for your Cursed Soul, only shows how silly the economy has got. The parts required to make a CS, in theoretical comparison, would probably be less than 100k. You need to remember they are reimbursing you for the items base cost of construction, not the market price.

2: Any GM who tries to further their Clans aims, will live a very short GM life. True, some got away with it, but from what I've seen, Reakktor have now woken to this issue, and as stated, only EC's and another high rank, are able to spawn anything, or change anything.

Newsflash that's a KK lie to make people stop from seeing it.

Can I actually ask what you know to prove this true?
I don't want..
" My friend knows a friend that knows a friend that knows a GM."
I don't want..
" This guy saw that guy do this with that.."
I don't want..
" Everyone knows that 'x' did 'x'.."

I want...

" I have been a Game Moderator, I have been given the powers available on all levels of Moderator from trial to Event Co-ordinator, and I know what each level of GM is capable of, and how it can be abused."

If you can't say that as the truth, then stop talking on a subject of which you have no authority.

I can talk about it, because I was a Faction Counsellor, and I knew precisely what I had at that level, and that was equivalent to a Trial GM, which was basically squat.

So yes, some GM's have appeared to abused their system.
Yes, Reakktor have stomped down on it, this I know from being an FC.

Seriously, without experience, you don't know what you're talking about. Stop yapping on with only gossip and hearsay as the foundations of your argument. It only shows you up as a fountain of faked knowledge.

Marx

31-08-03, 03:16

w3rd.

IceStorm

31-08-03, 03:35

Just because you paid two million for your Cursed Soul, only shows how silly the economy has got. The parts required to make a CS, in theoretical comparison, would probably be less than 100k.
How do you figure? People pay between 50k and 150k for normal rareparts, to over 500k for CS parts. Even during the good days when raredrops were plentiful, a full set of parts for something like a Redeemer cost me 300k - 50k per part.

You need to remember they are reimbursing you for the items base cost of construction, not the market price.
100k does not cover the restoral of all of one's items. Hell, it doesn't cover even cover 20% of the cost of replacing a single TL150 tool using a decent barterer.

The "screw you, 100k" policy that MJS (not the GMs, not KK employees, but MJS himself as Nidhogg stated in kurai's thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=71115&perpage=30&pagenumber=2))) set forth does nothing to foward the acceptance of Neocron. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has been paying for months and has been supporting the game. Assuming the playerbase is a bunch of lying, cheating kids does nothing to instill a sense of community.

There has to be a better way to handle the item problem. A solution to this problem should be put in place before the next server-crashing event is held.

MrBane

31-08-03, 03:40

I can't argue about the reimbursement for the bought complete item in the shops, such as the Construct Tool.

Yet when I refer to the CS as example, I am taking about the in-game construction costs of the part - Not how much it costs you to buy those parts, and get them put together.

Basically, I mean you're getting reimbursed for the shop costs of the Weapon Parts required to make that weapon. So 100k would be more than sufficient.

Regardless of slots, or rarity of weapon. It's a case of:

You have a 5 slot Tangent Plasma Cannon. The parts required are:
x x and x
These cost x to buy in shop, thus you get reimbursed x.

So it ignores market rates and any other charges incurred. Just the base shop rates.

People pay between 50k and 150k for normal rareparts, to over 500k for CS parts.

To buy, not construct the actual parts required.

IceStorm

31-08-03, 03:49

You say :
These cost x to buy in shop, thus you get reimbursed x.Fine, I can understand that, but a rare's parts cost, per part, between 50k and 500k to buy. Those are the cost of the parts, same as a Weaponpart costs a certain amount in a shop.

CSes cost anywhere from 300k to 3mil to build from scratch. 100k is an insult to anyone who loses one to a coruption problem caused by KK themselves.

MrBane

31-08-03, 03:55

Those are player created prices. Not shop acknowledged prices.

The shop prices would undoubtedly never let a gun get to the actual initial construct cost of 500K +...

Anyway, off topic. :D

Scikar

31-08-03, 04:39

Tell you what then, if 100k isn't enough for you, let's ask KK to do what the devs of every other MMORPG without item tracking does and give you nothing at all. It's not 100k because KK want to insult people, it's because people have claimed to have lost equipment which they never had, and profited from KK's generosity, to the detriment of other players. Take your anger out on them, for example the guy Odin received an e-mail from. He claimed his capped char with rares had completely disappeared. The account was 4 hours old. :rolleyes:

Eckel

31-08-03, 05:19

4 hrs old.......omg.....i mean how can ppl be so stupid.....
Thats like going to work for 4 hrs and trying to get paid for a 40 hr week o_O ...

Hippieman

31-08-03, 05:20

A CS doesnt cost 3 mill if you get the parts yourself you know. Just get the parts yourself and it will be a lot cheaper. If you dont got the time for that. Then tough shit.

IceStorm

31-08-03, 06:38

Tell you what then, if 100k isn't enough for you, let's ask KK to do what the devs of every other MMORPG without item tracking does and give you nothing at all.
If they stop corrupting the servers and add item tracking, this would become a moot point. I'd be happy if they'd just stop corrupting the severs by their own hand.

A CS doesnt cost 3 millI said between 300k and 3 million, not just 3 million.

if you get the parts yourself you know
I've been hunting for rares for about four months. I've seen three of the six CS parts in that span of time. Getting the parts oneself isn't that simple, nor is trading for them if your inventory goes "away".

cracky

31-08-03, 06:55

If you have never been a gm how can you say that what I'm saying is hearsay? but whatever you don't what to believe it fine, I know what I'm saying is fact and I don't have to explain how I know.

The community gets flat out notices about shit all the time yet they choose to ignore it and believe kks lies. I don't need one of your "you're dumb I know more then you" reples mr.bane.

If you can prove anything kk has said then you have room to talk otherwise you are just shouting hearsay like me.

Marx

31-08-03, 07:23

The "screw you, 100k" policy that MJS (not the GMs, not KK employees, but MJS himself as Nidhogg stated in kurai's thread) set forth does nothing to foward the acceptance of Neocron. It's a slap in the face to anyone who has been paying for months and has been supporting the game. Assuming the playerbase is a bunch of lying, cheating kids does nothing to instill a sense of community.

Well, its because a fairly decent sized group of people have taken advantage, while another fairly large group have at least attempted to take advantage of the KK support system. I know personally a bunch of people who lied to get things replaced. Not hard, not hard at all.

Do you think it would be prudent to let it continue? I don't think it would be.

Anyway, if you have friends who play the game, for the most part you can get anything replaced comparitively easily. So frankly, you don't *need* any compensation, so any is a nice though on KK's part.

By purchasing the game and playing it, you ackowledge that the level of support given is wholly dependent on the company overseeing the game (KK); and if their level of support is unsatisfactory to you, you can complain, or leave.

Just remember, you pay for the right to access the game world provided by KK, just because you pay doesn't mean they have to put up with your harrasment. I use the term harrasment because from what I read ingame and occasionally on these forums... thats whats being tossed at them, as opposed to well-thought out requests for support.

Hell, the one time I saw a GM and player openly converse in local as opposed to direct messaging, the player cursed the GM to the point where the GM said, and I quote "I'm not going to bother with this.". Of course the player seemed to have done it to show off, because 'cussing out the GM' seems to get people respect.

:rolleyes:

If people acted that way in real life to say... a cashier at a store... That person can easily be arrested and charged. Just because its a game doesn't give you any more right to be an asshole.

Just going to repost this:

"People with their holier than thou' art, "my shit doesn't stink" attitude have 'caused things to be the way they are. You want change, start acting like human beings instead of acting like an asshole and hiding behind the anonymity provided by your computer."

ClownBoat

31-08-03, 07:38

This is a pvp game not a monster bash game. I think players (including me) hate these gay events because EVERY OTHER MMORPG OUT THERE has them and we want NC to be different.

Plus most of the GM events on here are just half assed and usually involves them spawning monsters for carebears to kill and the nget uber loot off of. Not a very good thing.

Marx

31-08-03, 07:44

This is a pvp game not a monster bash game. I think players (including me) hate these gay events because EVERY OTHER MMORPG OUT THERE has them and we want NC to be different.

THEN GO OUT

AND PVP

WHILE THE EVENT

IS GOING ON

Twit. You don't have to participate in the events, there's how many other zones you can possibly be in?

People enjoy the events, just because you don't doesn't mean they shouldn't happen. You can just as easily go do something else while they go on.

Plus most of the GM events on here are just half assed and usually involves them spawning monsters for carebears to kill and the nget uber loot off of. Not a very good thing

Um, Half-assed beats nothing IMO, (because the events I've seen haven't been as half assed as you may counter them to be.) and my previous post sorta points out why GM's are the way they are.

Anyway, I don't know many people that have gotten 'uber loot' from events, aside from those hackers at the DoY invasion of MB.

Lastly, most of the fuckwits that make up that 'PvP community' you claim to represent are the same ones complaining about the need for 'more content'.

SorkZmok

31-08-03, 07:56

Fact is:

Good event: 10 ppl say it was good, the rest is satisfied and doesnt need to talk about it.

Bad event: 10 ppl are satisfied, 19278347 ppl bitch that it sucked.

cracky

31-08-03, 09:37

Marx you used a real life example of a cashier but that's not really right.

It's more like if you take an item that broke due to manufacturer error with the receipt. Then the cashier tells you sorry they can't replace it because customers before have tried to rip people off doing this.

A cashier would never really do that because people do try to rip them off all the time but that doesn't stop them from returning people's items it just makes them have to check it out more first.

Breschau

31-08-03, 10:19

Small point / tangent:

When deciding the 'cost' of a rare part, you can't just think of it as the cost of the parts bought to make a gun.

Simply because it's not like a weapon part 7 - there's more cost involved than going into crytons and handing over your credits.

A *huge* part of the prices people set is not based on a financial value, it's based on the cost in time, and perhaps more importantly tedium involved in getting them.

How many hours of hunting does it take to finally find 6 CS parts - or even parts that people are willing to trade for 6 CS parts (at which point usefulness of the part comes into play, in addition to time/tedium costs). Now consider how much extra money you'd make if you spent that time just trying to make money. Even with the hyper inflated player prices, that 150-500k per part is still a pretty good deal when you think about how much money you could make in the time it takes to find the part under your own steam.

Combine the above time and cost with the usefulness of certain rares compared with all the others, and *that* is why people charge so much for their parts and rares.

Well, that and the fact that they know people are willing and able to pay for them.

Having said all that, I fully understand why KK does that. If it's possible for them to implement a unique ID and some logging facilities of when an item is removed from the gameworld (like, no longer on any player, ground, or container) then they will be able to offer more appropriate compensations. Until then, this is about the best they can do without feeding scammers and chancers..

Archeus

31-08-03, 11:05

Originally posted by cracky
Newsflash that's a KK lie to make people stop from seeing it.

No it's not. Corrupt GM's have already been fired. What you describe is certainly possible, but doesn't mean that every GM that plays is corrupt (I would corrupt ones don't play for long anyway).

cracky

31-08-03, 11:08

No the ones that were obvious with it were banned, there are still ones who don't draw attention to themselves and get away with it.

There's also the cases where they are aware of the gm doing wrongs but don't want to take the time to train another one.

Also I wouldn't say anything if I wasn't sure of it.

cracky

31-08-03, 13:58

A final note to the main subject of this thread, the players are the only thing keeping the game alive. The only reason anybody still plays this game at all is to hang out with people in the game they know.

I mean all through out retail there have been barely any events and if you want to blame that on the players then you would have to show a time when they did do events and where the players caused a problem so they stopped.

Also blaming it on individual players, like when I first posted in this thread is just shafting the blame for no reason.

Note: I would of edited the first post, but it was too old

uh addition: I respect kk and their team but, to be a company they have standards they should meet. Also hiring real gms instead of player volunteers is really a must.

Marx

31-08-03, 15:24

Then the cashier tells you sorry they can't replace it because customers before have tried to rip people off doing this

After working as a cashier for a bit at my local grocery store, I can tell you this.

Certain items are not returnable.

Receipts are always needed, no matter what. No receipt, no proof of purchase, no proof of purchase no return. You got a receipt? Congrats, you can return your item if its not on the list.

Now, people are simply telling KK the problems they encounter, KK has no proof that what the player has told them is true, possible staffers can dig through code to find the problem or glitch (any KK staff can correct me and I'll be properly humble.) and correct it, but is it feasable to do it every time, especially when most cases are false?

No.

No receipt, no return.

"ONOZ I LOST MY STUFS"

No proof, no replacement.

See my point?

People abused it in the past, now people complain - people should have stepped in previously and said, "Hey man, thats not cool". They didn't, now we all get to reap the benefits provided to us by the 'greedy few'.

cobrajay157

31-08-03, 19:10

NEWS: STFU HELEN AND STOP POSTING AND PLAY THE GAME FOR A CHANGE!!!!!!

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 19:10

Originally posted by cobrajay157
NEWS: STFU HELEN AND STOP POSTING AND PLAY THE GAME FOR A CHANGE!!!!!!

Slightly ironic that the people who say that are also the same people that respond to almost every one of my posts. o_O

cobrajay157

31-08-03, 19:12

FFS see what im talking about i just hit send and a second later helen posts a reply

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 19:13

Originally posted by cobrajay157
FFS see what im talking about i just hit send and a second later helen posts a reply

Then stop making yourself such an easy target. :)

EDIT: Anyway, I have some Capitalists to beat the hell out of, a Political rival's house to firebomb and an uprising to quell.

Toodles for now.

Scikar

31-08-03, 19:17

Originally posted by cobrajay157
NEWS: STFU HELEN AND STOP POSTING AND PLAY THE GAME FOR A CHANGE!!!!!!

Helen isn't exactly my favourite person in the world either but that's not going to help you one bit. o_O

QuantumDelta

31-08-03, 19:23

I think I know the GMs pretty well, and I know how they do their business, and I know how much shit they get off others.

I am 100% behind all the GMs I've met and talked to, and that's probably a lot more than most of you guys.... (older players while not actively seeking GM attention, sometimes get it...)

I've even had to rope a GM into joining my clan for a little bit to take rank 15 so I can start a clan for a faction master who couldn't use their key (for some reason), I trust them, a few of them trust me.
i have never met a "bent GM" but then, I don't really play on Saturn, and even on pluto, where there are a few accusations, I rarely manage to find a GM that isn't actually actively doing support.

Then again, there are never any "bent GM" accusations on Uranus...

GMs are unpaid, player volunteers, that spend their free time, helping other people, and fixing their problems.
They act within a rules and constraint system that was implemented by Reakktor, so when they say "Sorry, we can only give you 100k for that" They are probably feeling really really guilty because they cannot replace your lost item.

Players, in comparison to GMs.... I can think of a few Players (past mainly), that really do fuck this game over, far worse than any GM or KK Move has ever made.
....Period.

So, generally, I agree with Tazo and Helen on this one.

Cryotchekk

31-08-03, 20:15

helen is killing the game coz he/she is a wanker.

read: wanker

Helen Angilley

31-08-03, 20:16

Originally posted by Cryotchekk
helen is killing the game coz he/she is a wanker.

read: wanker

How can one be a "wanker" if they don't masturbate blokes or have a penis of their own? o_O

HellHound

31-08-03, 20:21

Wanker Noun.
1. A masturbator.
2. A contemptible person.

:rolleyes:

Shadow Dancer

31-08-03, 20:25

Originally posted by Marx
After working as a cashier for a bit at my local grocery store, I can tell you this.

Certain items are not returnable.

Receipts are always needed, no matter what. No receipt, no proof of purchase, no proof of purchase no return. You got a receipt? Congrats, you can return your item if its not on the list.

Now, people are simply telling KK the problems they encounter, KK has no proof that what the player has told them is true, possible staffers can dig through code to find the problem or glitch (any KK staff can correct me and I'll be properly humble.) and correct it, but is it feasable to do it every time, especially when most cases are false?

No.

No receipt, no return.

"ONOZ I LOST MY STUFS"

No proof, no replacement.

See my point?

People abused it in the past, now people complain - people should have stepped in previously and said, "Hey man, thats not cool". They didn't, now we all get to reap the benefits provided to us by the 'greedy few'.

Your analogy couldn't be anymore faulty. Players aren't given any "receipt" of any kind, so they can't prove it anyways no matter how careful they are. Secondly, a database corruption or whatever the hell it is, is the reason for lost items not the players themselves.

I think you should pick a better analogy.

Cracky makes a couple of good points. Hiring GMs instead of just volunteer players would be great. Imagine no volunteers, wtf would happen? So they get volunteers then people get told to "stfu" when they complain about the GMs. :rolleyes:

Marx

01-09-03, 03:29

Your analogy couldn't be anymore faulty. Players aren't given any "receipt" of any kind, so they can't prove it anyways no matter how careful they are. Secondly, a database corruption or whatever the hell it is, is the reason for lost items not the players themselves.

I think you should pick a better analogy.

Cracky makes a couple of good points. Hiring GMs instead of just volunteer players would be great. Imagine no volunteers, wtf would happen? So they get volunteers then people get told to "stfu" when they complain about the GMs.

After talking with some support folk at the beach party about a myriad of things, here's what I've been led to beleive.

If people want stuff replaced, in order to get the proper proof required to make the action doable, the GM's need to get in contact with a KK staffer who can check the databases.

There are three main coders, and therefore three people who can go through and look for the problems or item losses.

Originally people did check, and the number of false claims vastly outweighed the number that were true. The amount of time spent covering these claims wasn't worth the effort if people were going to lie. Thats why MJS gave the "100k" proclimation, not a GM.

I mean hell, in UO, you lose something, the staff there cordially invites you to fuck off, unless you're a well known member of the game community.

In DAoC, you lose something, they tell you to fuck off, unless its an epic quest item.

I'd imagine EverQuest is similar.

What KK does is nothing different or new. Like I said previously, if fellow players voiced dissent at the actions of those that lied, and reported that "they were lying" we wouldn't have these problems now.

And yeah, my analogy is pretty off, but originally it was there to point out if players acted the way they do to GM's, to a service person like a cashier they can get arrested and charged.

:p

Helen Angilley

01-09-03, 03:31

Originally posted by Marx
I'd imagine EverQuest is similar.

There's piss-all "support" in EQ.

We should be counting our blessings.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 03:41

The actual fact is that you can get a GM faster and more often in EQ than you can in NC. They won't replace lost items as a matter of policy, true, but they have an actual and functional support crew for the game.

Most games don't replace items, but again most games don't send the GMs to slaughter helpless characters and allow them to be res-killed and looted again and again either.

Marx

01-09-03, 03:44

but they have an actual and functional support crew for the game

EQ has SoE support.

KK doesn't.

GMs to slaughter helpless characters and allow them to be res-killed and looted again and again either.

They livened up the atmosphere; something that the community has been asking for for a long time. If people screwed eachother over via rezkilling, go after them, not KK.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 03:48

Originally posted by Marx
EQ has SoE support.

KK doesn't.

I was just pointing out that Helen was lying by implying that things are better in NC ("we should count our blessings").

Shadow Dancer

01-09-03, 03:55

Originally posted by Marx

I mean hell, in UO, you lose something, the staff there cordially invites you to fuck off, unless you're a well known member of the game community.

:p

To this day I still believe UO has the WORST SUPPORT EVER!

Hell I remember one time when one of the Origin employees was issuing a statement, and he said how he was afraid to touch some aspect of pvp because "our relations with the community at this point is more or less crap". :lol:

Originally posted by Marx

And yeah, my analogy is pretty off, but originally it was there to point out if players acted the way they do to GM's, to a service person like a cashier they can get arrested and charged.

:p

I don't think you would get arrested unless you refuse to leave or attack someone.

Marx

01-09-03, 03:57

Well we should.

Alex,

If they weren't better here in her eyes, she wouldn't have posted it, would she?

I personally think its better, especially after being fucked out of a little under 2 years worth of work in UO, my super uber expensive shite in DAoC, and my level 1000 homie in The Realm.

The losses in Neocron don't warrant the bitching thats done. Hell, if you have friends with resources or you're really good at hunting, you can have the item you lost back in no time.

Try getting a rare-filled tower in UO back after a GM deletes it for being 'improperly placed' only to get a message later on that he made a mistake, but there was nothing he could do about it, because someone else placed a house there.

:mad:

Neocron has by far the most responsive group of developers in any game, ever. We want changes, they change it in one form or the other.

Name any other big time MMO that does that, there are damned few.

By your post you're obviously not thrilled with Neocron. If you don't like it that much people, leave.

I don't think you would get arrested unless you refuse to leave or attack someone.

Breach of peace for being loud and abusive. Using loud and abusive behavior mixed with a show of force can be viewed as misdeamenor assault by the officers arriving on scene.

God I love google

:D

None of which are big crimes, but still crimes if the victim wishes to press charges.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 04:53

Originally posted by Marx

go after them, not KK.

actually it is KK that should be going after them.

Marx

01-09-03, 04:57

Oh come on, I've had my fair share of beatings from clans who I pissed off.

People know who did it, people should go after who did it.

Anyway, not like the rezkilling did much on pluto because of the server rollback.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 05:06

sorry if i dont agree with you.

I think rezz killing should be bannable.

I think pushing afk people or people stuck syncing into combat zones and rezz killing them should be banable.

I will never understand how KK(not the GM's) can possibly condone and in fact support this foolishness.

Marx

01-09-03, 05:09

I think rezz killing should be bannable.

KK has already said that rez-killing is ok. If you leave yourself in a situation where it can happen, guess what, you're fair game and it sucks to be you.

I think pushing afk people our people stuck syncing into combat zones and rezz killing them should be banable

First off, sitting completely negates the persons ability to do this to you. Second, you have to be afk a long time to have that happen over long distances. If you're going to be AFK, sit down or log off, that simple.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 05:12

like i said kk allows and in fact endorses this behavior.

Perhaps you should read my post FULLY next time.

Mind telling me how your going to sit when your body is stuck in sync and the only way u can move is if your pushed?

Marx

01-09-03, 05:14

I did read it fully, and I was pointing out that KK allows that behavior because it can easily be prevented with forethought.

If it happens to you, you deserve it because you couldn't be bothered to think ahead.

DAMNIT, stop powerediting for fucks sake.

Try logging out.

Hitting escape while synching generally brings you back out to the main menu with a 'connection aborted' message.

Secondary thought = can mods please change the 3 minute grace period where the editing title doesn't show up?

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 05:17

Right, KK caters to grief players, which is why servers intended to hold over 1000 have about 10%-20% of that number.

Grief players and losers that think they are tough because they play a PvP game are not the best demographic to target if you want your game to succeed.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 05:18

perhaps you should consider those newbies that it happens to that dont know its possible. You know the ones who quit after they get all their stuff ganked by a famous ass on saturn.

Or perhaps u can explain how some forthought will prevent someone stuck in sync is supposed to do? Especially when they are for instance syncing from pepper into plaza they get stuck in sync and are than pushed back into pepper? And than when they try to log off they get rez killed 3 times while the server finally figures out they are no longer in the game.

Marx

01-09-03, 05:21

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 05:22

no it is a designer problem.

The community only uses the mechanics the designers give them to use.

Marx

01-09-03, 05:23

The community makes the rules for their fellow players to follow.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 05:25

incorrect again. The designers create the boundries for the players to work within. If a player finds a way outside of these boundries the designers tend to fix it warn them and ban them.

Thats why they say mmorpgs make for great social engineering tests.

Scikar

01-09-03, 05:29

Originally posted by Alex Mars
Right, KK caters to grief players, which is why servers intended to hold over 1000 have about 10%-20% of that number.

Grief players and losers that think they are tough because they play a PvP game are not the best demographic to target if you want your game to succeed.

Define succeed. If by succeed you mean, "Completely ignore your original plan of a dense cyberpunk atmosphere with untrustworthy criminals, dangerous areas and scum, and replace it with a more mainstream vision of safe, pure PvP" then yes Neocron could succeed by targetting the EQ and UO fanatics. But if by success you mean "Achieve your goal of creating a cyberpunk atmosphere, where the basic rules of civilisation do not apply, and you better watch your back every step of the way" then Neocron is headed the right way, for the most part.

You're measuring success using the wrong method.

Marx

01-09-03, 05:31

No my friend, you are incorrect.

Any person can step up to take action against greifers.

When you go in plaza 1, and someone screams "PK IN TEH AGGY PITS", many rush off to deal with that person.

The community makes the rules, i.e. Picking on n00bs is a nono.

and its the community's job to ensure that players work inside those rules. i.e. killing the PK after hearing that he or she is in insert spawn spot name herre.

This means the players have much more freedom in how they act, much like in real life.

EDIT : And stop fucking powerediting, geebus.

Scikar

01-09-03, 05:36

Originally posted by IronMonkey
incorrect again. The designers create the boundries for the players to work within. If a player finds a way outside of these boundries the designers tend to fix it warn them and ban them.

Thats why they say mmorpgs make for great social engineering tests.

EXACTLY!! The boundaries in Neocron are anything goes, bar hacking and duping. That's the whole damn point. People are SUPPOSED to take advantage of the environment, and other players. Killing someone who is syncing out or has SI isn't exactly fair but who said this was a game about Knights with a code of chivalry? It's a dark cyberpunk world full of backstabbing, deceitful criminals who'll sooner gut you and rob you before returning your greeting. It says it all when in EQ the worst thing you can accuse someone of is KillStealing. Being shot in the back by someone who could kill you even in a fair fight is part of the game, and if you can't live with that, play something else, because the game won't change. It might not make millions in profit, and it might not break subscription records, but the people who care about that, are not KK.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 05:41

The community makes the rules, i.e. Picking on n00bs is a nono.

Really? Why is it that the majority of the PvP I see is high level gankers ambushing low levels? The only PvP I know of that is different is the rare fight I hear about on the Faction channel.

Part of the failure of NC PvP is that there isn't much for a low or mid level character to do. I was told directly on the Faction channel not to show up to a OP fight unless I was around combat level 50 unless I wanted to be no more than a bullet catcher. At least DAoC put in the Battlegrounds so that I could PvP without having to worry about being steamrolled by a character twice my level.

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 05:42

Find a different server, or a clan, or a better faction.
:P

Marx

01-09-03, 05:45

Really? Why is it that the majority of the PvP I see is high level gankers ambushing low levels? The only PvP I know of that is different is the rare fight I hear about on the Faction channel.

Gee, isn't that why I'm preaching that the problem at hand is a community problem?

At least DAoC put in the Battlegrounds so that I could PvP without having to worry about being steamrolled by a character twice my level

Oh come on, the only thing that motivates people to PvP in DAoC are the realmpoints you earn per kill. Thats the only reason you even see people in thid, cale, murd and whatever the 15-19 level bg.

People want the realmskills that are purchasable upon reaching certain amounts of realmpoints.

Why?

Because they can assist in the PvM/hunting bit.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 05:49

Scikar perhaps you think the game wont change but it will change. Thats why kk has the email when people quit for their reasons for quiting.

It's because in fact they do care. And as those responses build up the majority of those issues will be resolved.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 05:55

The community lacks any effective tools to deter the griefers, usually by the time the posse arrives in the cellar the badguy is gone. The community is always in a reactive and defensive posture and yet always a step behind the griefers. I watched all this during the PK wars in old UO, the community cannot adequately police the game world. Hard coded limitations like the GR invulnerability are needed (why? because often the toon arrives somewhere after teleporting before the player has any control of the game, and unless you are the type of fucking loser who wants to be able to kill people because of a system performance issue there should be no objection to this). Not being able to hack belts in a copbot zone is another good idea (after all, why would the copbots that are there to enforce the law allow belt looting?). A game needs coded community protections to prevent abusive behaviour.

I gave up on DAoC as well, but the point I was illustrating is valid; lower level characters have a place to PvP where they have a chance at winning.

Marx

01-09-03, 05:58

Originally posted by Alex Mars
A game needs coded community protections to prevent abusive behaviour.

I'm going to grab a quote from another thread, because it works here too.

Originally posted by Scikar
The fact is, KK can't afford all these modellers and coders. The work still gets done, it's just the development cycle is longer. We still have DoY to come, and after that things like HackNet. With such a limited budget, players just have to learn to be patient.

I'm sorry, if you want to PvP as a lower level character, you can spam in trade channels and hit up Neofrag. I did it with all my lowbies, and I always will. It gives me ample time to test my setups.

Scikar

01-09-03, 06:00

Originally posted by IronMonkey
Scikar perhaps you think the game wont change but it will change. Thats why kk has the email when people quit for their reasons for quiting.

It's because in fact they do care. And as those responses build up the majority of those issues will be resolved.

Tomorrow you're going to see a quote of MJS telling us that he wasn't going to let the game wander away from his vision. Just because 500 people quit and say the reason is they got killed in Pepper park, does not mean that Pepper will be changed for the benefit of players who've already left anyway.

Originally posted by Alex Mars
Really? Why is it that the majority of the PvP I see is high level gankers ambushing low levels? The only PvP I know of that is different is the rare fight I hear about on the Faction channel.

Part of the failure of NC PvP is that there isn't much for a low or mid level character to do. I was told directly on the Faction channel not to show up to a OP fight unless I was around combat level 50 unless I wanted to be no more than a bullet catcher. At least DAoC put in the Battlegrounds so that I could PvP without having to worry about being steamrolled by a character twice my level.

Maybe if you took the time to accompany a clan to an OP fight you would see more true PvP. This explains to me now why you claimed that there is no real PvP in this game, because you haven't experienced it. You're making all these statements about PvP, yet you haven't even fought in an OP war!

If you had played long enough, you would know that it's not a matter of level, it's a matter of experience. I've been to an OP war as a /34 rifle PE, and killed a capped tank. When I went to an OP war at /25 on my very first character, I died in a few minutes. The reason you were told not to go along until you hit /50 is because it's only when you reach that level that you'll last long enough to appreciate the fight. And to reach /50 is about a third of the work it takes to reach /60, yet a /50 runner is quite capable of killing a /60 runner.

If you knew what you were talking about, you might have some weight in this argument. But until you experience real PvP, and not just someone being PKd as they wandered about in an area where they knew full well an enemy runner could run in and shoot them.

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 06:02

Well said.

Marx

01-09-03, 06:02

dido

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 06:02

the point is marx for everyone of us that stayed 10-20 left.

For every one thats peaks up for him 10 say nothing just quit and are never heard from again.

This is why u need to solve the issues with simple solutions that require a few lines of code to change. Or remove features fully till you have enough time to adequatly dictate resources to them. For instance the placeable furniture removable furniture etc

They didnt work out quite well so they were removed because they were buggy. Having the syncing issues as bad as they currently are, they should remove the ability to push someone back through the sync until the syncing issues are solved.

In mc5 for instance i watched 4 ppus get slaughtered by the guards because of this same syncing issue. So it relates not only in pvp but also pvm.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 06:06

Originally posted by Scikar
Tomorrow you're going to see a quote of MJS telling us that he wasn't going to let the game wander away from his vision. Just because 500 people quit and say the reason is they got killed in Pepper park, does not mean that Pepper will be changed for the benefit of players who've already left anyway.

thats a bit far feteched dont you think? I was more or less refering to the syncing issues and newbies being rezz killed.

Marx

01-09-03, 06:06

Just remember, 3 coders.

They're doing the best they can, and its sure as hell a better job than you can do.

The only times *I* have problems with the game is when I get connection difficulties, and you know what? Thats not KK's fault.

Take a step back, enjoy the game. If you can't enjoy it, then its no longer a game to you.

Move on and find something new if need be.

Scikar

01-09-03, 06:09

Originally posted by Alex Mars
Hard coded limitations like the GR invulnerability are needed (why? because often the toon arrives somewhere after teleporting before the player has any control of the game, and unless you are the type of fucking loser who wants to be able to kill people because of a system performance issue there should be no objection to this).

Why does GR invulnerability need to be implemented? Why don't you just follow a few simple rules, which I have never broken since I first met Starkes as I came out of the MB GenRep:

1)Never GR to a GR that you are not 100% certain is secure. That's a part of the game, by GRing to an unkown GR you take a risk, and it's your fault if someone is there and kills you. Stop trying to get KK to do your work for you and do some yourself.

2)If you can't be sure the GR is safe, either go somewhere else or go by vehicle.

3)If you are willing to take the risk, remeber you can negate the risk by putting all of your valuables in your gogo. There's a gogo next to practically every GR in the entire game world. Use it! If you die, and drop a medkit, that's all of a few minutes game time lost, while you wait off the SI and get poked.

If people would start using their heads and thinking, instead of using their mouths and whining, they wouldn't need to cry for 3 weeks until KK made the game easier for them.

Hacking QBs shouldn't be possible in safezones, that I agree with, but GR invulnerability? Why not just give you a personal CopBot, and he can protect you from all the nasty evil PKers who might shoot you out in the dangerous wastelands.

Scikar

01-09-03, 06:13

Originally posted by IronMonkey
thats a bit far feteched dont you think? I was more or less refering to the syncing issues and newbies being rezz killed.

Sorry, I thought you were going to preach about GR invulnerability too. :p

There is an announcement in the announcements thread that something is in the works to stop rez killing. And there is very little KK can do about the syncing issues, every online game is suffering currently under the traffic the msblaster worms have got sent out. Every online game is experiencing lag and connection issues, there's nothing KK can do about it. As I said in the other thread, people want content before bug fixes. Give us DoY and we'll be happy for a month or two while KK fix the bugs and do what they can with the netcode (which is more than just a couple of lines :p).

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 06:14

Originally posted by Marx
Just remember, 3 coders.

They're doing the best they can, and its sure as hell a better job than you can do.

Please refrain from the if you dont like it make your own comments. Or the theres only 3 of them and they are by far doing a better job than you could ever do. I'm not going to get into a technical debate with you. Or talk about what I can do. That is just silly. You don't know me, you have no idea what I am capable of. In fact for all you know I might be on a dev team making a game right now. Or perhaps I'm sitting in my home office working on 3 million quad models along with a shader tree for an animation sequance for a reel i'm about to pitch for the opening sequence of a video game due out next year. I'm not here to say who can do what ebtter. I am here to try and help things get better for other types of players. In fact i am a PvP'er. I do it everyday and i enjoy it immensly. But that doesn't change my views on what it takes to make it better. Nor does havign 2 or 3 coders change my views on certain things that should be changed.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 06:14

Hacking QBs shouldn't be possible in safezones, that I agree with, but GR invulnerability? Why not just give you a personal CopBot, and he can protect you from all the nasty evil PKers who might shoot you out in the dangerous wastelands.

If you are saying that short term GR invulnerability is the same as what you suggest there, you are a liar. That is a very dishonest comparison.

I guess you are the sort of loser who likes to kill people that still see a black screen and the word "synchronizing". I don't see any purpose in allowing that sort of thing, and if you are camping GRs you should be alert enough to follow a runner who just popped in so you can catch him when the invulnerability wears off.

All your arguments come down to the fact that you want to be able to kill helpless opponents.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 06:16

Originally posted by Scikar
Sorry, I thought you were going to preach about GR invulnerability too. :p

There is an announcement in the announcements thread that something is in the works to stop rez killing. And there is very little KK can do about the syncing issues, every online game is suffering currently under the traffic the msblaster worms have got sent out. Every online game is experiencing lag and connection issues, there's nothing KK can do about it.

And almost every game has code to prevent a character from being killed before the player has control of the character.

Marx

01-09-03, 06:17

Alex, at this point you're whining and insulting Scikar instead of countering his arguments.

Like I said previously, if you don't enjoy playing the game, perhaps you should move on.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 06:18

marx actually he has some valid points the problem is he isn't good at wording them. He is correct every mmorpg out has code implmented to make sure you dont get killed before u have control of your character.It's a simple set on recieve command

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 06:26

Originally posted by Marx
Alex, at this point you're whining and insulting Scikar instead of countering his arguments.

Like I said previously, if you don't enjoy playing the game, perhaps you should move on.

Nope, he was lying in his comparison, and his argument really does boil down to a desire to set things up so helpless opponents can be killed easily, there is no rational reason to object to code that protects a player until they are actually in control of the game client. Only losers want those sorts of kills.

I enjoy the game, but I am not blind to its faults. I am also unwilling to absolve KK from the blame for a lot of those faults.

Marx

01-09-03, 06:30

He is correct every mmorpg out has code implmented to make sure you dont get killed before u have control of your character

You are so very wrong my friend.

The 'synch' screen death is the same thing as a 'linkdead' death in DAoC (which have been worked on, but still occur though not with the same frequency) which is the exact same thing as a 'Logout_error' death in UO, which is the same thing as a 'lag' death in The Realm, etc etc.

edit:

Nope, he was lying in his comparison, and his argument really does boil down to a desire to set things up so helpless opponents can be killed easily, there is no rational reason to object to code that protects a player until they are actually in control of the game client. Only losers want those sorts of kills.

No, his arguments are common sensical. Just because you don't agree doesn't make them wrong.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 06:40

Comparing a short term invulnerability when using a GR to having a copbot on call is a dishonest comparison, in other words, a lie.

Marx

01-09-03, 06:42

No, you want immediate protection upon GRing. What difference would it make? Either people wouldn't attack you because they couldn't do damage, or they wouldn't attack based on a visable deterrant.

His sarcasm was dripping there in case you didn't notice.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 06:49

Originally posted by Marx
No, you want immediate protection upon GRing. What difference would it make? Either people wouldn't attack you because they couldn't do damage, or they wouldn't attack based on a visable deterrant.

His sarcasm was dripping there in case you didn't notice.

What difference? Being able to run or shoot back is better than being shot to pieces before I even get past the flickering black screen. Why is this hard to understand?

Scikar

01-09-03, 06:53

Originally posted by Alex Mars
Nope, he was lying in his comparison, and his argument really does boil down to a desire to set things up so helpless opponents can be killed easily, there is no rational reason to object to code that protects a player until they are actually in control of the game client. Only losers want those sorts of kills.

I enjoy the game, but I am not blind to its faults. I am also unwilling to absolve KK from the blame for a lot of those faults.

I have several reasons for objecting to this code.

It's a possible exploit - add any invulnerability to the game and people can use it to have an unfair advantage. It is quite possible to use many weapons straight out of a GR. So that means as well as being invulnerable, you can still target people. So the next thing to do is stop people from using weapons while they have this GR invulnerability.

Then the question is, how long does it last? It can take anything from 0.5 to 15 seconds to sync into a new zone, depending on net traffic and your connection. But 15 seconds of invulnerability is long enough for someone to GR in, and run for the nearest zone line. In 15 seconds you can be well out of range of anyone waiting for you. If that happens, how is anyone supposed to stop TGs from GRing into MB now? If you let mobs and NPCs target people, you have to let them fire back. If they can fire, they have 15 seconds of invulnerability to kill someone, or to cast things like damage boost before GRing away again. Or you can say mobs and NPCs can't target them, in which case I will merrily GR into MB and run straight for the apartment lifts. Did you think of any of that at all?

And if you must know, I fight in this game for the adrenaline rush of a challenge. I love fighting against hopeless odds (well maybe not when there's a ppu spamming me with parashock) and I get a serious rush from it. That's why I do it. Killing a helpless runner who can't fight back only makes me feel guilty, which is why I prefer just to scare the crap out of them but let them go.

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 06:56

Very correct.
I have killed capped(close to capped?) Characters out of the GR (My GRing, and KNOWING they're there camping the genrep) with my own capped chars.
It's easily possible....

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 06:57

Most games that have this sort of protection terminate the invulnerability when the player attacks, casts a spell, or moves (or moves more than 10 feet). It is only there to get the player in control of their toon before they can be attacked. Other games do this with no problem and I haven't seen reports of people exploiting it.

Marx

01-09-03, 06:58

What difference? Being able to run or shoot back is better than being shot to pieces before I even get past the flickering black screen. Why is this hard to understand?

community change.

Scikar

01-09-03, 06:58

And of course, that's completely forgetting the fact that the time spent trying to work out how to code this while making it very difficult to exploit could be much better spent on making sure full APCs don't cause all the passengers to crash on every zone, or making pistols aim a little better, or countless other changes that are real problems, and not the result of sheer laziness, and a desire for the game to do all the hard work.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 06:58

Originally posted by Scikar
I have several reasons for objecting to this code.

It's a possible exploit - add any invulnerability to the game and people can use it to have an unfair advantage. It is quite possible to use many weapons straight out of a GR. So that means as well as being invulnerable, you can still target people. So the next thing to do is stop people from using weapons while they have this GR invulnerability.

Thats why its not the second thiong u do but the first thing =-)

It only lasts until the send recive command is issued when your packet is recieved from the server to the player and back. Its as simple as pinging the player to make sure he is in an active state. IRC can do it, why cant neocron? =-P

It's not a timed invunerability but an active response mechanism to amke sure that u are only attacked when your character is activly able to 'move'. Or as in irc when you are able to send recieve data.

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 07:00

Originally posted by Marx
community change.

That will never happen, this is one of the things you have to code in.

Marx

01-09-03, 07:01

It's not a timed invunerability but an active response mechanism to amke sure that u are only attacked when your character is activly able to 'move'. Or as in irc when you are able to send recieve data.

whats the point? If its the 'noobs' you claimed are being held back by this... they're still going to die if the GR is camped.

EDIT:

That will never happen, this is one of the things you have to code in.

My ass. Like Scikar pointed out, you just have to use common sense.

I don't have these problems, so why should the code be changed?

QuantumDelta

01-09-03, 07:02

Ironically, most people are invisible (if they are on cable and euro ) beyond the time they have spent synching (because invisibility is there to semi-protect those synching).

Many a time I've seen people exploiting the fact that you look like a person seen through heavy rain water just after you've synched coming in firing CS in various zones.
Kinda stupid if you ask me.....

Scikar

01-09-03, 07:03

Originally posted by Alex Mars
Most games that have this sort of protection terminate the invulnerability when the player attacks, casts a spell, or moves (or moves more than 10 feet). It is only there to get the player in control of their toon before they can be attacked. Other games do this with no problem and I haven't seen reports of people exploiting it.

Alright, you've now told me that this feature should be in Neocron, because it's in other games. Tell me, in how many of these other games are you expected to defend your home base by guarding the teleport gates? KK could lock the MB GR to all faction enemies, but why should they, when there are entire clans of CityMercs, whose responsibility it is to defend their base themselves? For once, people have to actually engage with the game world, and do things for themselves, rather than just expecting the developers to address issues through hard coding and spawning guards.

Marx

01-09-03, 07:06

Originally posted by Scikar
For once, people have to actually engage with the game world, and do things for themselves, rather than just expecting the developers to address issues through hard coding and spawning guards.

Amen.

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 07:15

Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Ironically, most people are invisible (if they are on cable and euro ) beyond the time they have spent synching (because invisibility is there to semi-protect those synching).

Many a time I've seen people exploiting the fact that you look like a person seen through heavy rain water just after you've synched coming in firing CS in various zones.
Kinda stupid if you ask me.....

even more ironically. What i stated will fix that issue also. =-p

Scikar

01-09-03, 07:17

How simple would it be to hack it so that your comp didn't send a reply, making the server think you were still loading, but in actual fact your comp is responding. Also, isn't part of the whole synchronising thing a matter of sending and receiving packets? I would have thought in the act of synchronising, your comp would need to send and receive packets, before you could actually control your char?

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 07:28

ping not packets ping. A response ping

and if your worried about people packet sniffing and hacking the packets them haxoring that simple mechanism should be the least of your worries lol

BTW that ping would take under1 second or so on a cable modem

Scikar

01-09-03, 07:36

I understand now, though it does sound a little too easy to hack (but then I imagine the whole system probably sounds easy to hack :p). To me this sounds like a workable solution to a problem which doesn't need solving. I would prefer it if people were encouraged to get info on whether a GR was secure before they teleported in blindly, rather than coding something to accomodate for those people who can't be bothered, and even if this is something worth adding there are other issues which are more pressing and should be addressed first, in my opinion.

G.0.D.

01-09-03, 08:12

The community has been whats keeping me in neocron... some rotten apples but we can all just hope they quite and never come back :rolleyes:

cracky

01-09-03, 08:59

uhhh about gr invulnerability that's a little too far I mean it takes just as long to synch zoning as it does genrepping and you can crash during it just as easily. So you'd have to have zoning invulnerability too which both would be dumb.

They should just make it that you're body isn't placed there until after the zone if the engine would allow it.

Also people should stop blaming the game failing on "griefers" killing the game, if this was true then why do the "griefers" end up quitting too?

Alex Mars

01-09-03, 10:02

if this was true then why do the "griefers" end up quitting too?

They get bored finally and leave.

If you don't believe that griefers drive people away from the game go out to some gaming forum (outside this one) and ask them about their impression of this game or ask why they left if they played NC.

Cryotchekk

01-09-03, 11:47

ok so pking does drive some people away, but alos it keeps alot of people ingame. think of nda on pluto neocron-defence-agency
so they (or they name suggests they do :/) kill pkers. what the fuck would they be doing if no pkers where here?? hmm?????? so many times have i had my ass wasted by groups of people because i have killed their friends/alts/them etc. if they werent out for a kill what would they be doing? getting bored and leaving? i have been rezzkilled, lots, i dont think its as bad as everyone says. dont go fucking afk and if u arent afk gr ffs. pk'ers keep the game alive. nuff said.

cracky

01-09-03, 12:01

This game is geared towards a certain audience and if people quit because of "griefers" they aren't part of that audience. KK should not change their game to please everybody, there are plenty of people out there that would love this type of game. They just don't know it exists.

Helen Angilley

01-09-03, 16:00

Why should we count our blessings?

Because despite "other" MMORPGs often having a much larger budget, team and backing....Neocron's support still frequently outclasses them.

Alex:
Get off the whole "liar" thing. Makes you look ridiculous.

Lethal Virus

01-09-03, 16:03

Damn guys. Ya'll are starting up threads about pointless bullshit. Are GMs killing the game? Are Forum mods killing the game? Are players killing the game? Just shit the fuck up, and get over it. This is no need for this bullshit. All these threads end up to is flaming other people.

Come on guys, act civilized, not like a bunch of hooligans. :rolleyes:

5150

01-09-03, 16:47

Ok I dont have time to wade through 11 pages and I wasnt at the event but heres my spin

I dont see how volunteer GM's can work, I really dont. They need to be paid up members of staff, that way they have some power and they have some accountability - if some grunt gets in their face they can take the appropriate measures without risk of calls of bias, by the same token because players are dealing with an actual member of staff they know they cant give any grief and theres the ability to lodge complaints through the correct channels.

With regard to events, most of the events I hear about in Neocron (because I never seems to catch them) appear to be of either the 'arranged PvP' type (Point Red) or the 'GM spawns nasties' type. To be fair neother of these are my cup of tea and I dont see how either of these promotes RP (I'll go as far to say that at least Point Red promoted the story).

Unfortunately if you create events that cater to the 'leet powergamer' or 'PvP head' (and I apologise in advance for lumping you all in the same group and labeling you stereotypically) then you are going to also attract the morons (to be fair if you create an RP event you are _still_ going to attract the morons who will grief it just because they got nothing better to do) and thats even more reason to have some kind of 'official kk employee' presence at such a gathering

Look at it another way, if you hold such an event on Saturn then all the morons responsible for the incident a while back will show up, and then they can all get banned in one swift stroke and the rest of us can get back to enjoying Neocron.

Unfortunately Neocron is just too PvP biased for my liking (in terms of the morons that this attracts) and as such I dont login much anymore. I logged in a while back while another game server was down for maint and went looking for the cool new Monk robes. I got told they were got off a guy in PP3 so off I trot, now I dont have my LE chip in because I wanted to share an appartment with friends and I'm well aware (but totally unhappy) with the consequences of this) and no sooner had I stepped foot in PP3 then some uber hard TG player (didnt even catch his rank I was dead so fast) blows me away - dont get me wrong I had all my best buffs running and armour on but I never stood a chance (and I started running the minute I saw him)

Neocron and Eve share the same fault in that unrestricted PvP (in terms of ability/level/equipment) drives players away (although at least Neocron pays some attention to restrcting PvP, but then the morons dont seem to be able to put up with Eves gameplay...). This guy never even bothered to try and hack my belt (I was back there really quickly) because it must have been obvious to him that I didnt have anything worth taking - gotta ask yourself why he bothered? Probably because he was bored.......

ClownBoat

01-09-03, 17:31

Volunteer GMs are fine as long as they only help with technical issues.

GMs should not be able to do events, talk to other runners unless they made a petition, or show any kind of favortism at all.

[ edited for violation of the forum rules - this nonsense was, is, and always will be BS. ]

My point is GMs should only be there to help runners in trouble and answer questions. Everything else is just going to screw things up.

SynC_187

01-09-03, 17:54

Originally posted by ClownBoat
Volunteer GMs are fine as long as they only help with technical issues.

GMs should not be able to do events, talk to other runners unless they made a petition, or show any kind of favortism at all.

[ edited ]

My point is GMs should only be there to help runners in trouble and answer questions. Everything else is just going to screw things up.

I thought the problems with [ edited ] were down to a runner creating a char with a name that looked the same and pretending to be a GM.

/mod's edit - you're correct. That runner's account was banned permanently and, in fact, had previously been temp-banned for GM abuse.

I don't know how anyone can put down the GM's.

They do what they are told by KK.
They do everything they can with the powers they are given.
They give up their game time, to try and make yours more enjoyable.

You might get 1 or 2 bad one's over time, but you can't generalise. I have always had good service from the GM's. Sometimes takes a while, maybe because there aren't enough. They do their best and thats what counts.

GET OFF THEIR BACKS!

As for events, its just as important for players to run their own events as GM one's. It gets people more involved, and gives them a chance to shape the game themselves.

There are players doing that now, and I have a lot of respect for them for putting their time in.

I'd love to sign up to be a GM, but I don't think I could devote the 15 hours a week they want at the moment. My lifes just too unpredictable.

As for players killing the game, thats just a little too general again. There are some players, whose attitudes can spoil it for other people, but most of the ingame community is good.

The forum however seems to be a place for people to vent their frustration.