View Full Version : Is CDV so bad?
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 12:03
Well if you ever do a search for MMORPG in Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=MMORPG) you may want to look at the right side under "Sponsored Links"
Hmmm...... thats quite cool. Does CDV put that up there though?
Also even if they did its only one thing that they have done in the almost a year now of publishing the game. This website (http://www.cdv-neocron.com/) should give you a good enough impression of how seriously they take the publishing of neocron.
Lord Mansion
30-08-03, 13:03
There are always 2 sides to a story.
KidWithStick
30-08-03, 13:11
have you ever seen the flash they made for NC?
(im assuming they made it)
Is CDV so bad?
Just look at the player count!
Answer: Yes CDV suck monkey bollox.
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 14:15
Originally posted by KidWithStick
have you ever seen the flash they made for NC?
(im assuming they made it)
Why would they make that? if they did they should not have had to, there job is to advertise and lay down the cash, KK are the ones that should be supplying the art/game/everything else.
KK Makes the movie, CDV distro's the movie, thats how it works and if they did make it they went beyond the call of duty even if it is REALLY lame.
Originally posted by Benjie
Just look at the player count!
Answer: Yes CDV suck monkey bollox.
I am just gota copy and paste something I already said in another thread...
Everyone is so quick to blame CDV? Maybe the fact that CDV figured KK would not be able to pull out a decent MMORPG and kicked it into the corner of its list of things to advertise. I mean I have not talked to anyone outside of Neocron, say on a different forum and hear them say something good about it. Have you heard of some other gamers CDV has published? Crossacks, Divine Divinity, Sudden Strike 2, BREED, Blitzkrieg and more, these are all High rated games and they all have had lots of hype/advertisement, but if you look at there list of games ALOT of these games I have not even heard of, some I have but not by advertisment and for example iv tried Project Nomand, I found it to be very lame and iv never ever seen a ad for this game, maybe CDV spends cash on the games that they feel are promising... and CDV does plenty of advertising for its lesser titles also, I even saw a Neocron ad on File Planet along time ago.
People gota step back for a minute and look at the whole picture, would the average gamer put up with what KK is doing and how Neocron is now? Most people on this forum admit to only staying because they hope things will get better with DoY and in the future, From what I have seen from KK that wont seem to happen. Most patches are infected by the "KK Special", every patch brings a new bug.
juvestar15
30-08-03, 14:26
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Everyone is so quick to blame CDV? Maybe the fact that CDV figured KK would not be able to pull out a decent MMORPG and kicked it into the corner of its list of things to advertise. I mean I have not talked to anyone outside of Neocron, say on a different forum and hear them say something good about it. Have you heard of some other gamers CDV has published? Crossacks, Divine Divinity, Sudden Strike 2, BREED, Blitzkrieg and more, these are all High rated games and they all have had lots of hype/advertisement, but if you look at there list of games ALOT of these games I have not even heard of, some I have but not by advertisment and for example iv tried Project Nomand, I found it to be very lame and iv never ever seen a ad for this game, maybe CDV spends cash on the games that they feel are promising... and CDV does plenty of advertising for its lesser titles also, I even saw a Neocron ad on File Planet along time ago.
That's probably the dumbest statement i've ever read. That or CDV are more fucken stupid than i first thought.
Basically what that's saying is, CDV agree to publish a game, then realise it is crap so they throw it in the corner. This is where I'm lost. CDV surely would have seen the game before they gave KK the contract. The only other thing i can come up with is CDV just wanted to lift their status. Kinda like "Wow we pwn coz we publish 5 games". Or maybe they have some other alternative. Maybe they didn't want a competitor taking Neocron.
God knows wtf is wrong with them. But that statement you post is just stupid.
[EDIT] - Forgot something.
The add campaigns are usually before release and just after. So how could CDV know Neocron sucked before the release date? o_O That supports my conspiracy theory.
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 14:33
Originally posted by juvestar15
That's probably the dumbest statement i've ever read. That or CDV are more fucken stupid than i first thought.
Basically what that's saying is, CDV agree to publish a game, then realise it is crap so they throw it in the corner. This is where I'm lost. CDV surely would have seen the game before they gave KK the contract. The only other thing i can come up with is CDV just wanted to lift their status. Kinda like "Wow we pwn coz we publish 5 games". Or maybe they have some other alternative. Maybe they didn't want a competitor taking Neocron.
God knows wtf is wrong with them. But that statement you post is just stupid.
im again to lazy to write new things so I will quote something...again
Originally posted by Smugly
Actually, Silent Gravity never said anytthing about personally not liking the game. And he does have plenty of valid points. Remember that 9 out of 10 games never return a profit, thus a publisher needs to cut it's losses where it feels it's most necessary.
Personally, I'd consider the "failure" of Neocron to be a mass commercial success to just come down to the simple mechanics of being a PVP MMORPG. Now before everybody jumps up and down and starts shouting about "Carebeare" and "Die Noob" go play some other MMORPG's. Check Everquest for instance. About 15 servers when I last played I think, 1 of which was PVP. Dark Age of Camelot Europe also had only one server with similar PVP scope to Neocron.
Frankly, I just don't think the mass market likes the idea of levelling for a month or two's casual playing, then hunting for another month just to be able to stand on two legs in PVP. All the while up being killed by the players who do have the time to do these things. Neocron's a "niche" product. It appeals first to those who enjoy Sci Fi/Cyberpunk settings, then to those who enjoy PVP. Everytime you make a slice in the big market pie you cut out a load of people who just won't be interested.
CDV certainly have a part to play in the whole drama, but to hold them totally responsible for everything is just blind.
Anyhow Dome of York wishlist:
1) Places to go.
2) Things to kill that drop halfway decent loot to sell
3) Lockout of hostile factions from enemy cities (TG from Neocron for instance) and development of such cities into functioning towns with their own populations of tradeskillers and clans.
If anyone wants to see the original thread this came from... DoY Wishlist (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72801)
As you read from that post is if CDV spent money of even the most horrible games then they would lose ALOT of money. You obviously are very uninformed on the current subject, I suggest you learn about our subject and then come join us again when you are willing to talk like a adult and not resort to personal mindless flames.
EDIT: To reply to your edit
As I said I saw Neocron ads on Fileplanet before the game was released, fileplanet ad space does not come cheap.
CDV did a Fileplanet Add 2 years ago? Maybe I was wrong, CDV may yet be a compitent publisher for an mmorpg, and i guess if they thought NC was gonna be shit then thats as valid reason as any for sticking it in the "to do" pile. Well I guess theres nothing left here for us to discuss. Where is Nidhog to close this thread? With a post like that then there is no longer any reason to keep this thread open.
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 14:39
Originally posted by Benjie
CDV did a Fileplanet Add 2 years ago? Maybe I was wrong, CDV may yet be a compitent publisher for an mmorpg, and i guess if they thought NC was gonna be shit then thats as valid reason as any for sticking it in the "to do" pile. Well I guess theres nothing left here for us to discuss. Where is Nidhog to close this thread? With a post like that then there is no longer any reason to keep this thread open.
I can't tell, are you being sarcastic or is it just bad english?
Anyways, its not just Fileplanet and it was not two years ago it was around the time of Beta4.
The fact is im tired of everyone blaming EVERYTHING on CDV, did CDV Delay the download? no, KK did, because KK wanted to have a distro of free CD's. Did CDV make Neocron as buggy as it is? prone to hacking and lack of support? no KK did. Did CDV delay DoY over and over? no, KK did, because KK felt that CDV would not lay down as much cash as they wanted, with good reason.
If you were a marketing guy would you give a game like Neocron a massive advertising campaign?
juvestar15
30-08-03, 14:40
Why don't we just shut every thread down that has the words "idiot" or "dumb" in it. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 14:41
Originally posted by juvestar15
Why don't we just shut every thread down that has the words "idiot" or "dumb" in it. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Ummm, the only person in this thread with "idiot" and "dumb" is you, besides this post of course...
Originally posted by SilentGravity
I can't tell, are you being sarcastic or is it just bad english?
LOL it's sarcasm. :)
juvestar15
30-08-03, 14:43
Originally posted by SilentGravity
The fact is im tired of everyone blaming EVERYTHING on CDV, did CDV Delay the download? no, KK did, because KK wanted to have a distro of free CD's.
I'm not 100% sure, but i think MJS made a post about the download option and had something to do with CDV not allowing them.
If this is true then you must eat your words. Telling me to go read up on all this because i know "nothing". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 14:45
Originally posted by Benjie
LOL it's sarcasm. :)
Well I just wana state again, most games do not make a profit, if a publisher treated every game like it was... Half-Life2 then they would lose alot, small/bad games get small advertisement, ok games get ok advertisement, GOTY games get GOTY style advertisement. I think you can fill in the blanks...
juvestar15
30-08-03, 14:45
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Ummm, the only person in this thread with "idiot" and "dumb" is you, besides this post of course...
I said a post was dumb. I never said "idiot".
My reply which you have quoted was said because Benje seems to think this board is some kind of dictatorship.
Excuse me, do you pay a distributor to shove your project in the 'to do' pile, as you put it. No, you pay them to advertise the game, no matter how shit it actually is, as best they can. You CAN NOT use that as a reason why CDV is good, if anything it makes them even worse!
Athon Solo
SilentGravity
30-08-03, 14:48
Originally posted by juvestar15
I'm not 100% sure, but i think MJS made a post about the download option and had something to do with CDV not allowing them.
If this is true then you must eat your words. Telling me to go read up on all this because i know "nothing". :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I remeber that he said "The download version is done. The advertisment deals with varios sites are signed. The only thing that is still holding it back is the fact that we want to offer an alternative CD-ROM mail order for the trial version from _day one_ of its release." (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54126) CDV did not want to spend the cash of these CD's and that is why MJS delayed the download. KK Could have given us the download much sooner but they wanted those CD's which I belive about 5 people ordered :rolleyes:. But remeber as said "the advertisment deals of varios sites are signed", now im pretty sure KK did not pay for those advertisements...now who did you think did....
Originally posted by athon
Excuse me, do you pay a distributor to shove your project in the 'to do' pile, as you put it. No, you pay them to advertise the game, no matter how shit it actually is, as best they can. You CAN NOT use that as a reason why CDV is good, if anything it makes them even worse!
Athon Solo
I do not know KK's exact contract with CDV but I dont belive they paid them, the publisher takes part of the profits, if there is no profits then CDV does not get paid. Lets do basic marketing shall we kids!
Publisher A spends $5000 on advertisements for Game A, they get %50 of the profits from selling the Game A but Game A only makes $5000, that means Publisher A gets $2500, now tell me, did they make money?
I never said the "to do pile" that was someone else, like I said, Neocron made a small profit and they got small advertisements. That is how it works. When KK starts pulling in big cash I am sure CDV will notice and lay down some more cash.
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Well if you ever do a search for MMORPG in Google (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=MMORPG) you may want to look at the right side under "Sponsored Links"
Your saying CDV is GOOD because they have a sponsored link? dude those cost $2 ...
I have to go with silent on this post.
After all its KK's numerous screw ups that have silenced any good word of mouth amongs gamers. Its KK's lack of support and amazing amout of screw ups that are gradually driving the long term players out of NC. Just ask in your server how many well known characters have cancelled there accounts in the past month or so...
Helen Angilley
30-08-03, 16:12
Originally posted by juvestar15
My reply which you have quoted was said because Benje seems to think this board is some kind of dictatorship.
It _is_ a Dictatorship though.
A privately owned forum is not a Democracy.
Originally posted by juvestar15
My reply which you have quoted was said because Benje seems to think this board is some kind of dictatorship.
Huh? that post was sarcasm. Or perhaps you didn't get that?..
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Is CDV so bad?
Yes.
The DL option was supposed to be due before xmas 2002.....DOY was due a few mths after........
Back in beta4 when KK extended for a extra 3 weeks(just before the UK release) they had to ask CDV... in other words CDV were calling the shots in Beta4...... Every1 back then before it became retail said.......more beta time to get the game sorted...... i think even MJS agreed with this(somewhat)........but CDV wanted retail....
So then we coem to the UK release.......23rd OCtober it was due..... no shops had them....ok well a few.......only a handfull got the game because alot of boxes had the wrong instructions .......The game shops did'nt get any info from CDV saying "yes you can sell it now" alot of ppl had to wait till 1st Nov... because the shops did'nt know what was going on....they heard that the storyline was starting 1st Nov...this they took it upon themselfs to sell the came on the 1st of Nov and not before...........There was no advertisements in any UK shops.....Magazines had stupid lowbies who wandered around the inner city for abit then wrote the review......infact i dont think any magazine review actually got out in the wastelands....
U.S release.........pretty much the same as the UK release....ie.. no shops stocked it.....
As for the google......theres a thing called meta tags that search engines pick up on........so the NC homepage will have a meta tag in which holds key words....i bet MMORPG is one of them.... Go do a search for MMORPG using www.ask.com ...you'll find NC is there aswell..........
You can say now.......oh KK dont listen KK dont bleh, blah, bleh but infact if you was there when it was happening you'd know KK have had it even harder because of CDV.......
Now if CDV had done the job properly then things would be alot differant now........
And for the record.......CDV screwed things even before MJS did this thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54126#)
why do you think that CDV is closing their department in england?
why do you think they stop producing games like 'galaxy andromeda'
why do you think that they are going to fire more and more people?
and why do you think that they've got a minus of 4.5million euro in this year...
guessed correctly, cause they suck :p
Originally posted by Kr3Yc3K
why do you think that CDV is closing their department in england?
why do you think they stop producing games like 'galaxy andromeda'
why do you think that they are going to fire more and more people?
and why do you think that they've got a minus of 4.5million euro in this year...
guessed correctly, cause they suck :p
ROFL, CDV = pwned, tough the whole getting fired thing sucks, poor employees.
We do not need to spam this kinda gash on the forums anymore. Even ReaKKtor agree that Silent Gravity is wrong, that CDV are a crap publisher and have done fuck all for the game.
Whiety Bulger
31-08-03, 00:24
I hated CDV siance beggining its there fault that there is a LE.
KidWithStick
31-08-03, 00:31
ok the point is gravity....they DONT advertise FOR BEANS
the NC community does WAYYY more advertising than they do...
This is a rather interesting gem of information that I acquired through posting on the CDV forums. Under the username NC>U. :P
originally posted by Rico
Hey there i used to post on the Neocron forums during beta but wasnt worth the abuse in the end., same user name as here.
Neocron didnt get much advertising in the UK because it wasnt expected to sell many copies, and thus had a low budget (which we went over on oops)
As for marketing in Germany, i cant answer that as i have no idea what they did there.
Btw, CDV dont take money from KK, CDV fund Neocrons development
Link here (http://www.cdv-board.de/english/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20111)
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Lets do basic marketing shall we kids!
Are you always so condescending?? :D :lol: :D
So basically CDV gave Neocron a tiny budget, forced a retail release too early, but messed it up and did little to promote the game. The early retail release meant it was full of bugs and combined with the lack of advertising, the game has been suffering ever since. The only thing that can save it is a rerelease with DoY under the new publisher KK is looking for. Or maybe that will just hold it over and we'll have to wait for New Tokyo to save the game, then Irata III. ;)
Lethal Virus
31-08-03, 01:38
I read somewhere on a MMORPG news site of a game that used CDV for their publisher, they had like 500 players, last month they went with another publisher and now they got like 2500 players. That is cool.
I'll try to find the link to the article if I can track it down again.
Originally posted by Judge
Link here (http://www.cdv-board.de/english/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20111)
LOL
PWND!11
Helen Angilley
31-08-03, 02:06
Rico the same person who came here and miserably failed at defending the piss-poor job CDV did at launch?
Can any mod/dev/kk dude say if their estimate of 1000 has been beaten?
Helen Angilley
31-08-03, 02:59
Originally posted by Judge
Can any mod/dev/kk dude say if their estimate of 1000 has been beaten?
Thanatos has stated, several times in fact, that the company is doing exceedingly well.
Going by that, we can assume the game is doing well also.
After all, I often see over four-hundred people on the forums alone. o_O
The total number online is almost always over 1000. Even taking into account the various timezones, that means there must be a lot of players in each region, and it that's just the number still playing. Seems to me Neocron did better than CDV expected but they couldn't bothered to put any money in and take advantage of this.
I like this statement
anticipated to sell something like 1000 copies in the UK, with a budget of about £10,000 you cant do too much pimpin' of the game
So how much would NC posters cost..... or even the cardboard stand things....... surely not more than £9000..... *shudder* 10k you cant do much pimping.....see thats the whole problem, no matter how much cash you have .....you advertise, make deals with printers, posters and cardboard stands made ... I'm 100% sure if i had around 10k to advertise i could.........
I very much doubt you'll get a straight answer on the CDV forum......what you expect them to say....."oh yeh we could'nt be assed doing any advertisments coz we did'nt expect it to sell...so we kept the cash and had a nice xmas party" which for some weird reason I think thats what really happened.......
I have never seen an advertisement in North America nor anywhere on the net even the actual release of the game was screwed up with a Cd key problem and I had to wait a week more.
There was no advertisements in the UK whatso ever.....
I wonder how much CDV USA got to advertise.......i bet that was one hell of a xmas party :eek:
I saw one ad in the states, once.
I got involved with the game after reading a blurb about the beta at duckandcover.
I would just like to point out, the probs with early release and lack of advertisement may be down to the publisher, but the major probs with gamer support and the constant addition of new bugs are all down to KK.
The support staff are supposed to help players out, not drive players away cause they refuse to help when KK screw up the servers.
Dont know about others but right now I am severely pissed with KK's support staff.
Helen Angilley
31-08-03, 16:05
Originally posted by Garet
Dont know about others but right now I am severely pissed with KK's support staff.
Much like KK's support Staff are, in all likeliehood, pissed off with being treated like shit.
I wonder how much of that 10k went into Rico's pocket? I'm a little curious as to whether he takes a fee or has a salary.
SilentGravity
31-08-03, 22:27
Originally posted by Judge
This is a rather interesting gem of information that I acquired through posting on the CDV forums. Under the username NC>U. :P
Link here (http://www.cdv-board.de/english/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20111)
That link agree's with what iv been saying, CDV did not think Neocron would make much money so they gave it low advertising to balance out the profit, any publisher would be given that impression from Neocron beta.
http://ubersoft.net/comics/hd20030825.png
Originally posted by SilentGravity
[B]That link agree's with what iv been saying, CDV did not think Neocron would make much money so they gave it low advertising to balance out the profit, any publisher would be given that impression from Neocron beta.
Not just low advertising. None whatsoever. There's a bit of a difference there.
Putting less money in because they're not expecting much out is fair enough. But you have to ask, if they knew the game was full of bugs, and if they weren't putting any money in anyway, why did they force a retail release before it was ready? And when sales were good despite a total lack of advertising, why didn't CDV put any money in then?
Originally posted by Garet
I would just like to point out, the probs with early release and lack of advertisement may be down to the publisher, but the major probs with gamer support and the constant addition of new bugs are all down to KK.
The support staff are supposed to help players out, not drive players away cause they refuse to help when KK screw up the servers.
Dont know about others but right now I am severely pissed with KK's support staff.
Yes, True to a point but you have to think if the publisher did something above a 1/2 assed job. There might be a lot more players and maybe somewhat more proffesional support team and better server tech support.
Good advertisment or in Neocron case any advertisment.
=
More players more players
=
More money
=
More staff, more support, more shit.
SilentGravity
31-08-03, 23:04
Originally posted by Scikar
Not just low advertising. None whatsoever. There's a bit of a difference there.
Putting less money in because they're not expecting much out is fair enough. But you have to ask, if they knew the game was full of bugs, and if they weren't putting any money in anyway, why did they force a retail release before it was ready? And when sales were good despite a total lack of advertising, why didn't CDV put any money in then?
Because even the worst games can make a profit if you balance it right but they dont exactly know how well it will sell so rather then over-spending and LOSING money they would want to under-spend so they could make some money. Its all about money...
It costs a good bit of that 10k to distro those CD's/Box's/CD Cases/Manual's to about 4-5 countries.
Whiety Bulger
31-08-03, 23:04
KK should drop CDV as a publisher you see the commuinity has sugned up at least 1000% more people then the publisher has.
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Because even the worst games can make a profit if you balance it right but they dont exactly know how well it will sell so rather then over-spending and LOSING money they would want to under-spend so they could make some money. Its all about money...
It costs a good bit of that 10k to distro those CD's/Box's/CD Cases/Manual's to about 4-5 countries.
The 10k was only for the UK release. As the guy on the CDV site says, the German release was handled by another part of the company. And 10k certainly wasn't spent on distributing the boxes to stores - Neocron was always impossible to obtain from shops. I was one of the lucky few who found a copy in EB, but the vast majority had to order the game from Amazon because it wasn't in any shops. CDV basically spent 10k on making the game available by mail order from someone else.
SilentGravity
31-08-03, 23:12
Originally posted by Scikar
The 10k was only for the UK release. As the guy on the CDV site says, the German release was handled by another part of the company. And 10k certainly wasn't spent on distributing the boxes to stores - Neocron was always impossible to obtain from shops. I was one of the lucky few who found a copy in EB, but the vast majority had to order the game from Amazon because it wasn't in any shops. CDV basically spent 10k on making the game available by mail order from someone else.
What about the NA release? I don't know if they have copies in EB because I ordered my copy from a Canadian online store (not related to Amazon)
Originally posted by SilentGravity
What about the NA release? I don't know if they have copies in EB because I ordered my copy from a Canadian online store (not related to Amazon)
I think, though I don't know for certain, that there is a separate branch again for NA. There certainly haven't been any copies in stores there either though.
BlackPrince
31-08-03, 23:20
Guys, no offense, but a marketing budget of 10k, be it USD, Euro, our Pound, is dick.
You'd get maybe 3 half page ads running for a month in a major gaming mag. I know Gaming websites that charge anywhere from $1-3,000 (USD) for a weeks worth of adverts.
Most companies set aside at least $100,000 (USD) for adverts per area of release (eg Europe, N. America, Japan, etc.)
Whether or not you want to admit it, CDV was correct in not setting aside a huge amount of money for advertising. CDV isn't the one that has driven away several thousand players because of poor support, lack of storyline, and a singly determined attitude to make people suffer as much in game as possible. KK has. Not knocking KK, its their game to do with as they choose, but the failure of Neocron, while not solely their fault, is due in large part to the way they have managed it so far.
/Flame On.
SilentGravity
31-08-03, 23:32
/Flame Off
No flaming in here, no matter how much I love to ;)...
I dont wana get this thread closed, its a real debate.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Guys, no offense, but a marketing budget of 10k, be it USD, Euro, our Pound, is dick.
You'd get maybe 3 half page ads running for a month in a major gaming mag. I know Gaming websites that charge anywhere from $1-3,000 (USD) for a weeks worth of adverts.
Most companies set aside at least $100,000 (USD) for adverts per area of release (eg Europe, N. America, Japan, etc.)
Whether or not you want to admit it, CDV was correct in not setting aside a huge amount of money for advertising. CDV isn't the one that has driven away several thousand players because of poor support, lack of storyline, and a singly determined attitude to make people suffer as much in game as possible. KK has. Not knocking KK, its their game to do with as they choose, but the failure of Neocron, while not solely their fault, is due in large part to the way they have managed it so far.
/Flame On.
Let's just look at a few things. Neocron currently has about 1500 players on at peak times. If some changes were made, such as no item drops at all, rares made easier to aquire, the skill system made simpler so that it it was a piece of cake to setup your resists, that total would be maybe 5000 or more. But those original 1500 wouldn't be playing any more.
As I said in the other thread, MJS promised that this game wasn't about attracting as many players as possible, making as much money as possible. It's about what KK want the game to be. It's true, a large number of mainstream players aren't interested in Neocron. But they aren't the players KK want, they aren't the players that would truly realise Neocron and its cyberpunk atmosphere. The players KK want are a smaller group, but more scattered. The advertising CDV failed to provide might have reached those players, and instead of having a couple of thousand people hooked on the game we might have ten thousand. But the game was never made to attract the EverQuest and UO mainstream players, and hopefully it never will be.
BlackPrince
31-08-03, 23:34
Neither do I, but that didn't stop me from putting on my asbestos drawers.
It wasn't really a flame, but lord knows someone will take it that way. It was a (subjective) look at the current state of Neocron and the Why of it all.
To put blame I'd say it was 30% CDVs fault (pushing it out beta too quickly, screwing up the launches) and 60% KK's fault (Poor support/customer service, no storyline, and the normal BS we are all acustomed too).
10% is us.
SilentGravity
31-08-03, 23:36
Originally posted by Scikar
Let's just look at a few things. Neocron currently has about 1500 players on at peak times. If some changes were made, such as no item drops at all, rares made easier to aquire, the skill system made simpler so that it it was a piece of cake to setup your resists, that total would be maybe 5000 or more. But those original 1500 wouldn't be playing any more.
As I said in the other thread, MJS promised that this game wasn't about attracting as many players as possible, making as much money as possible. It's about what KK want the game to be. It's true, a large number of mainstream players aren't interested in Neocron. But they aren't the players KK want, they aren't the players that would truly realise Neocron and its cyberpunk atmosphere. The players KK want are a smaller group, but more scattered. The advertising CDV failed to provide might have reached those players, and instead of having a couple of thousand people hooked on the game we might have ten thousand. But the game was never made to attract the EverQuest and UO mainstream players, and hopefully it never will be.
Then why did they make all those timesinks? That is what games like EverQuest is built on, timesinks and ever since beta that is all KK has been adding, not new a fun things to do, but timesinks for people to do (MC5, Rares, Nerfing of Slots and much much more).
Infact DoY should be the first good Non-Timesink thing since beta.
And Spawning 10 stormbots in plaza or killing everyone in plaza does not count as a good event >_<
Infact the only real good event iv ever saw was the one when ZeroSanity was testing out the Event thing and spawning a bloody mob ARMY in CRP, no one was killing each other, it was just pure fun.
I think KK have tried to stick to their original plan, but occasionally they've drifted away from it, with things like belt drops, and those timesinks you've mentioned. But on the whole, the game is still geared towards a harsher world than that found in EQ, UO, DAoC etc. I think if KK wanted to, they could sell NC to the people who play those games. But if they did, almost everyone who currently plays NC will stop playing it and go somewhere else, more timesinks will be needed (the time needed to cap a Neocron char is short, very short compared to other MMORPGs, for example) and though KK might make a fair amount of money, they'll wish Neocron hadn't changed from what they wanted it to be.
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 00:32
Originally posted by Scikar
I think KK have tried to stick to their original plan, but occasionally they've drifted away from it, with things like belt drops, and those timesinks you've mentioned. But on the whole, the game is still geared towards a harsher world than that found in EQ, UO, DAoC etc. I think if KK wanted to, they could sell NC to the people who play those games. But if they did, almost everyone who currently plays NC will stop playing it and go somewhere else, more timesinks will be needed (the time needed to cap a Neocron char is short, very short compared to other MMORPGs, for example) and though KK might make a fair amount of money, they'll wish Neocron hadn't changed from what they wanted it to be.
Why not instead of timesinks make something fun to do, something dynamic so they will want to do it over and over.
Like maybe make those missions FUN, maybe abit challanging, maybe make a reward worth while. Maybe start working on the Clan Wars and Clan Missions again.
There are SO MANY things KK could be doing besides timesinks, maybe they are abit harder to program and take abit more brain power to think up but its worth it.
Anyways im just blowing steam, I know nothing like that will ever happen :rolleyes:.
I will say it again, do us a favor KK, PROVE ME WRONG!
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Why not instead of timesinks make something fun to do, something dynamic so they will want to do it over and over.
Like maybe make those missions FUN, maybe abit challanging, maybe make a reward worth while. Maybe start working on the Clan Wars and Clan Missions again.
There are SO MANY things KK could be doing besides timesinks, maybe they are abit harder to program and take abit more brain power to think up but its worth it.
Anyways im just blowing steam, I know nothing like that will ever happen :rolleyes:.
I will say it again, do us a favor KK, PROVE ME WRONG!
Well mini games for every tradeskill (or at least the primary ones) would be great, but this is all the kind of stuff that will come after DoY (if it does at all of course). Bearing in mind there is a 'CyberMall' in the works somewhere which is up for discussion for being added after DoY along with Mechs and HeckNet, it sounds like KK know that tradeskilling needs a little work, but things like DoY have the priority.
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 00:50
Originally posted by Scikar
Well mini games for every tradeskill (or at least the primary ones) would be great, but this is all the kind of stuff that will come after DoY (if it does at all of course). Bearing in mind there is a 'CyberMall' in the works somewhere which is up for discussion for being added after DoY along with Mechs and HeckNet, it sounds like KK know that tradeskilling needs a little work, but things like DoY have the priority.
I have heard nothing about a Cyber Mall since that 2000 Interview I read along time ago, I think that project was killed...like Hacknet...Mechs.....hey..you think DoY is on the line of being killed off o_O
I mean, all those other project you just SAID were killed off.
Originally posted by SilentGravity
I have heard nothing about a Cyber Mall since that 2000 Interview I read along time ago, I think that project was killed...like Hacknet...Mechs.....hey..you think DoY is on the line of being killed off o_O
I mean, all those other project you just SAID were killed off.
I'd never heard of it until it was mentioned recently, by Callash I think, that HackNet, CyberMall and Mechs were the next big things to be decided on after DoY. They've not been killed off yet, the decision on whether to implement them and in which order is to come after DoY release.
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 01:30
Originally posted by Scikar
I'd never heard of it until it was mentioned recently, by Callash I think, that HackNet, CyberMall and Mechs were the next big things to be decided on after DoY. They've not been killed off yet, the decision on whether to implement them and in which order is to come after DoY release.
Well, time will tell. But I dont think it will happen, and what was so special about "CyberMall", is it just abunch of shops inside a new zone? maybe the "New" Plaza 1 or something?
Prove me wrong!
Originally posted by SilentGravity
Well, time will tell. But I dont think it will happen, and what was so special about "CyberMall", is it just abunch of shops inside a new zone? maybe the "New" Plaza 1 or something?
Prove me wrong!
I don't know, Callash didn't say anything more than these were the projects to be considered after DoY, and it's the first I've heard of CyberMall.
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 01:36
It was theorised that P4 became the CyberMall.
Either that, or Viarossa subway station.
These theories were based on screenshots. :p
edit;
btw, at original topic question, short, unjustified, personal oppinion based on a lot of observation.
Yes!
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 01:47
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It was theorised that P4 became the CyberMall.
Either that, or Viarossa subway station.
These theories were based on screenshots. :p
edit;
btw, at original topic question, short, unjustified, personal oppinion based on a lot of observation.
Yes!
I suppose your right when it comes down to "Is CDV a bad publisher" but who is worse, KK or CDV? who drove the game more into the ground?
My vote still goes for KK
I say that from my viewpoint its more like 70% CDV 30% KK.
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 01:59
Originally posted by Judge
I say that from my viewpoint its more like 70% CDV 30% KK.
Existing userbase ain't exactly innocent either.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Existing userbase ain't exactly innocent either.
Whats that supposed to mean?
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:03
Originally posted by KimmyG
Whats that supposed to mean?
It means what it says.
Certain assholes spend their time ruining the game for others...
o_O
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It means what it says.
Certain assholes spend their time ruining the game for others...
o_O
And certain carebears ruin the game for all.
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:06
Originally posted by KimmyG
And certain carebears ruin the game for all.
Yes, the ganking twats that force their playstyle on others does ruin the game a fair bit.
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:06
"Hardcore" wasn't what made neocron, what it was.
There's no denying the game went downhill after the belt and SL changes. Before then at least it was only the high level people who got attacked, because the lowbies didn't drop anything worthwhile. When everyone drops an identical quick-access belt, there's no reason to differentiate.
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:10
Originally posted by Scikar
There's no denying the game went downhill after the belt and SL changes. Before then at least it was only the high level people who got attacked, because the lowbies didn't drop anything worthwhile. When everyone drops an identical quick-access belt, there's no reason to differentiate.
Well it certainly shows who's in it for the "true" spirit of PVP rather than some inane, materialistic gain.
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:11
......Got that one backwards...
Besides, Quickbelts solved the gayass packing problem.
SL Changes? All they really did was add "hunting zone."
Missions work to raise SL, killing mobs doesn't, that's true, but it shouldn't be easy to work off being a serial killer.
Serial killers would be (in a world like neocron) seen as a universal enemy, even TG would be shooting a TG SK the moment they started shooting FA.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Well it certainly shows who's in it for the "true" spirit of PVP rather than some inane, materialistic gain.
Just because I post something, does not mean I live by it. Personally, I PvP for the adrenaline rush I experience from a challenging fight. I rarely if ever shoot a low level runner, and on the rare occasions when I've been attacking MB and waiting for the mercs to come out, I have sometimes killed a low level runner, thinking he was higher level. And I always feel guilty afterwards. I have never ever killed an allied or neutral runner unprovoked.
That post above was in defence of those who PK a little more than I do. There is a subtle difference between being indiscriminate towards the level of your targets, and griefing.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Yes, the ganking twats that force their playstyle on others does ruin the game a fair bit.
So this was a hardcore game and QD that is what I say made this game and what I say could make this game great.
This game started hardcore and now has nothing more than a perverted PvP system.
1st. went the tracking system.
2nd came the SL changes aggy cellar protection.
3rd locked slot and belt system.
EQ is softcore carebear. Pure PVM nice quest nice items lots of shit to fight. So the softcore players flock to it and enjoy the niceness and get there items and do there quest get the friends to gether and throw tenis lightning bolts at each other (True story).
Then there is SB hardcore to the bone pure PvP hours of work millions in gold can be ransacked and destroyed in an hour by other players. 1 small saftey noob system till your lvl 21 then ur cast out into the cold and harsh world.
Now neocron not nearly enough rare items intersting mobs or fun quests with insane rewards. Nor does it have a pure hardcore enviroment anymore, all it has is saftey for rares and SL BS and endless safety nets.
Maybe if this game picked a road to go and stick to it, it would fair better. But im sure there are people looking for a nice hardcore future game.
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:15
Originally posted by Scikar
Just because I post something, does not mean I live by it. Personally, I PvP for the adrenaline rush I experience from a challenging fight. I rarely if ever shoot a low level runner, and on the rare occasions when I've been attacking MB and waiting for the mercs to come out, I have sometimes killed a low level runner, thinking he was higher level. And I always feel guilty afterwards. I have never ever killed an allied or neutral runner unprovoked.
That post above was in defence of those who PK a little more than I do. There is a subtle difference between being indiscriminate towards the level of your targets, and griefing.
I wasn't reffering to you, love. You people really need to stop thinking that, just because I reply to you, means I'm _reffering_ to you as well.
Oye.
Kimmy:
1.) Came into effect to stop repeated griefing of the same Runner.
2.) Came into effect because newbies kept being told to remove their LEs by "veterans"...who then went on to gank these newbies.
Articia, for example.
3.) If you really want something from PVP, you would devote the points to HCK or bring along a Hacker. Besides, the "old" system was worse...the entire inventory was safe for crying out loud, nowadays it's _only_ the first slot that's "safe".
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:18
He is more or less one of those people you are talking about on some of his chars though.... I think..............can't remember o.o
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Besides, the "old" system was worse...the entire inventory was safe for crying out loud, nowadays it's _only_ the first slot that's "safe".
I got a lot of nice shit with the old system you had to kill fast.
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:23
Originally posted by KimmyG
I got a lot of nice shit with the old system you had to kill fast.
You still have to kill fast.
Just now you have to actually...*gasp*..._work_ for that item you "gained" from someone of a lower rank.
:rolleyes:
Generilisation? Yes. But it's what was complained about eons ago.
And don't give me that crap about "the majority of PVPers being against it", this change was discussed, at incredible length, by KK and the community....a ruling in favour of it was made and so the system was implemented.
Of course, if you want the old drop system you could just piss over to Jupiter.
Although I suppose that would mean you'd have a challenge, for once.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
[B]You still have to kill fast.
Just now you have to actually...*gasp*..._work_ for that item you "gained" from someone of a lower rank.
B]
More like Pain easer nicely sloted TPS's and other hit of lvl 60's not some n00b.
Lemme see now GR to the nearst rep run back to were you fell and chances are you will get you item back.
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:26
Originally posted by KimmyG
More like Pain easer nicely sloted TPS's and other hit of lvl 60's not some n00b.
Lemme see now GR to the nearst rep run back to were you fell and chances are you will get you item back.
Precisely.
Lose your "main" weapon and you won't PVP again until you get something similar to it back.
Surely someone such as yourself would understand that? Most likely you wouldn't, but still.
As I said, if you're that bloody desperate for an item from PVP you would take the neccesary steps to gain said item.
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 02:30
Originally posted by Judge
I say that from my viewpoint its more like 70% CDV 30% KK.
From MY viewpoint its the other way around, CDV has done some crappy things, but nothing horrible, the worst thing I can think of was the CD-Key mix up and that was fixed quite easy.
KK has done alot more to drive this game into the ground.
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:31
Most of what KK have done, has been community driven.
:P
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:32
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Most of what KK have done, has been community driven.
:P
Shame the community seems to forget that at every convenient time.
Bleh.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
I wasn't reffering to you, love. You people really need to stop thinking that, just because I reply to you, means I'm _reffering_ to you as well.
Perhaps in future you might be a little more specific and a little less ambiguous? Regardless of whether you explicitly referred to me or not, anyone reading the thread might think you were, and therefore I am inclined to defend myself. Just because I was posting after you does not mean the post was intended purely for you to read.
3.) If you really want something from PVP, you would devote the points to HCK or bring along a Hacker. Besides, the "old" system was worse...the entire inventory was safe for crying out loud, nowadays it's _only_ the first slot that's "safe".
It's not viable in the slightest to hack belts as a tank. Any tank that can hack belts would be forced to run away as soon as people his level turned up to fight him because he would not be able to fight them, and then he is branded a coward.
As for bringing a hacker along, can you imagine how hard it must be to get someone to come with you to hack belts? Being a hack bitch is possibly the most boring thing in this game. The only class that can hack belts without gimping themselves are spies. There are few of these around anyway before you even try to persuade one to come with you. Now let's assume that you're a clan mate of someone who just got PKd by a tank and a rifle spy. You go out to fight them. Which do you shoot first? They both do similar damage, but the spy drops in the blink of an eye, so you kill him first. Result? A spy who accompanies another class on a PK spree to hack belts gets to hack some belts belonging to low level players then he gets killed by the higher level enemies whose belts he was there to hack anyway, but now he can't because he's dead. Or of course he can stealth the whole time but then he's a coward who PKs noobs then runs away, right?
I may not have first hand experience of this situation, but that's exactly how it unfolds when I defend TG from a raid - I take down the spies first if I'm not directly under attack.
All that was needed was to include the inventory in the drops. That was the only flaw in the old system.
And QD, who is this: "more or less one of those people you are talking about on some of his chars though.... I think..............can't remember o.o" referring to?
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:33
Kimmy :p
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 02:36
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Most of what KK have done, has been community driven.
:P
Like the time they released that bork patch which removed level 3 implants along with other items for over a month when NO ONE was working.
Like the time..err....every time they release a patch its bugged?
Like when they promise NOT to release patches on friday but when they release borked patches on say thursday they never fix it on friday o_O
Like how support is useless
Like how over half the features promised were removed
Like how this game is now filled with rare camping and timesinks
I could go on and on
What has CDV done?
Lack of advertisements (This is due to a low budget and any publisher would expect Neocron not to sell very well)
The CD-Key mess up (No excuse here)
Pushing Beta acouple weeks, its been about a year if not more...it STILL feels like we are in beta...
Anyone wana add something to the CDV/KK list (I am sure there is more)
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:38
Originally posted by Scikar
As for bringing a hacker along, can you imagine how hard it must be to get someone to come with you to hack belts? Being a hack bitch is possibly the most boring thing in this game. The only class that can hack belts without gimping themselves are spies. There are few of these around anyway before you even try to persuade one to come with you. Now let's assume that you're a clan mate of someone who just got PKd by a tank and a rifle spy. You go out to fight them. Which do you shoot first? They both do similar damage, but the spy drops in the blink of an eye, so you kill him first. Result? A spy who accompanies another class on a PK spree to hack belts gets to hack some belts belonging to low level players then he gets killed by the higher level enemies whose belts he was there to hack anyway, but now he can't because he's dead. Or of course he can stealth the whole time but then he's a coward who PKs noobs then runs away, right?
If people can bring Spies, and keep them safe, to take an outpost then they can take them along on "hunting" trips.
Besides, last time I checked almost every "PVP'er" took a PPU along with them. Why not a Spy as well?
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:40
Why can't PPUs hack? :P
QD has had a setup that can:
Hack ops.
Poke.
Kill well.
Repair (non-rares).
All at the same time....... :P
Of course...now he only pokes due to various nerfs....
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 02:40
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
If people can bring Spies, and keep them safe, to take an outpost then they can take them along on "hunting" trips.
Besides, last time I checked almost every "PVP'er" took a PPU along with them. Why not a Spy as well?
PPU's dont die...
Spies get in the outpost via walking.... no one knows anyone is at the base untell they start hacking/turrets, if they are smart they would not start attacking untell everyone is there, walking through the outzone is very different from walking through Pepper Park, Every time I walk from like MB to NC I never see ANYONE...
BlackPrince
01-09-03, 02:41
Lets see:
UberPatches (what was it, after 164 we've now had several 'huge' problems?)
I seem to recall a large amount of people leaving around christmas time when KK released yet another Uber patch that completely borked the game, and then all went on vacation. In their defense, those who didn't apparently couldn't even program simple fixes.
I'd dare say in the period of 8 weeks it took them to make the next patch they lost well over half their playerbase, give or take.
While I do feel the community (as incestuous and hostile it is) is to blame for some problems, one can hardly fault it on the obvious screwups by KK. The chief ones as I see them:
LoM/LoL fiasco
164/166/168 Snafu
Specialization
Carebearification (no penalties for the LE)
Shitty Support
No Storyline
Blatant Cheating that went on for so long as to completely ruin Neo's rep amongst other communties. Any discussion pertaining to possible cheaters or cheats was summarily closed, the accusers banned, and the cheaters left unpunished for a long time.
As I said before, KK took what started out as a completely unique and amazing game and turned it into a sorry imitation of much better games.
*shrug*
Helen Angilley
01-09-03, 02:42
Originally posted by SilentGravity
PPU's dont die...
They can also revive those who die.
My point is thus:
If you can drag along a PPU to be your healing and buffing bitch, then you can bring a Hacker along to be your Hacking bitch.
Haven't got either of those? Tough.
As so many of you "PVP'ers" are eager to say:
It's a dangerous world out there, adapt or put your LE back in.
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 02:44
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Lets see:
UberPatches (what was it, after 164 we've now had several 'huge' problems?)
I seem to recall a large amount of people leaving around christmas time when KK released yet another Uber patch that completely borked the game, and then all went on vacation. In their defense, those who didn't apparently couldn't even program simple fixes.
I'd dare say in the period of 8 weeks it took them to make the next patch they lost well over half their playerbase, give or take.
While I do feel the community (as incestuous and hostile it is) is to blame for some problems, one can hardly fault it on the obvious screwups by KK. The chief ones as I see them:
LoM/LoL fiasco
164/166/168 Snafu
Specialization
Carebearification (no penalties for the LE)
Shitty Support
No Storyline
Blatant Cheating that went on for so long as to completely ruin Neo's rep amongst other communties. Any discussion pertaining to possible cheaters or cheats was summarily closed, the accusers banned, and the cheaters left unpunished for a long time.
As I said before, KK took what started out as a completely unique and amazing game and turned it into a sorry imitation of much better games.
*shrug*
Neocron has ALOT of hackers still around, I also recently heard KK accusing a recently banned person of hacking Neocron accounts, now are these the same accounts KK says that were lost due to human error? :rolleyes:
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 02:46
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
They can also revive those who die.
My point is thus:
If you can drag along a PPU to be your healing and buffing bitch, then you can bring a Hacker along to be your Hacking bitch.
Haven't got either of those? Tough.
As so many of you "PVP'ers" are eager to say:
It's a dangerous world out there, adapt or put your LE back in.
Alot of people have both of those, but who is gona start a mini-army so they can camp PP and kill about 3 people and end up getting two medkits and some sort of armor.
Its not a matter of if its possible its a matter if its viable.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
If people can bring Spies, and keep them safe, to take an outpost then they can take them along on "hunting" trips.
Besides, last time I checked almost every "PVP'er" took a PPU along with them. Why not a Spy as well?
The spies don't come anywhere near the OPs until they have to. And when they do, there's a ppu around to rez them if they die. And a PKer who takes a ppu with him isn't looking for a fight at all.
Just after the freezer nerf, (which the community asked for, and received, to those cynics who believe every change has been bad) I was attacked by Starkes. The trademark start of every fight, the electric shock, was temporarily gone. So the first I knew Starkes was there was the rattle of his Lib. That was one of the most exciting moments I have ever had in Neocron, as I ran for my life. Since then, with the entire game revolving around ppus, more and more people feel inclined to bring ppus with them to fight. This means the person being killed no longer has the adrenaline rush of trying to escape, instead the first thing they see is the blue beam from the sky gluing them to the floor, then someone starts laying into them as they get damage boosted before they can even pop an antishock drug. That's why a true PKer does not bring a ppu with him.
And you're not a PvPer until you have a real fight with some chance of losing. PvP means having a real fight, it's not just a term you can throw around with a few rolled eyes to make people who duel and fight at OP wars look like newb killers.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Why can't PPUs hack? :P
QD has had a setup that can:
Hack ops.
Poke.
Kill well.
Repair (non-rares).
All at the same time....... :P
Of course...now he only pokes due to various nerfs....
Ask Carinth. A ppu that can hack, is a ppu that can't recast shields and heal fast enough after an antibuff to avoid death.
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:50
Where there's a will, there's a way..
I also have a theory about PPU Setups. :P
That just proves it really. If there's only a fraction of a percentage of ppus who can hack as well as stay alive, there goes your theory of simply asking a hacker ppu to come along and help you, doesn't it?
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 02:52
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Where there's a will, there's a way..
I also have a theory about PPU Setups. :P
*cough*drugs*cough*
Naw im kidding, I dont know shit about PPU setups :p
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 02:54
I guess I see your point...but as soon as I confirm whether my theory is right or not I'll start feeding my friends setup tips... :p
herm... my point was that PPUs die less than Spies :p
As for re-shielding/healing, you just need to be fast enough really...
As for drugs, no not druggies, but there are a few drugs that could help I suppose... :p
Carebearification (no penalties for the LE)
The PvE is what is keeping this game alive, not the PvP. The LE changes made the game better.
PvP in this game is a joke, any catass can camp spawn until he gets to a high level and gain cool gear before he PvPs. Not only that, but the game has griefers and cheaters that would be banned from the normal FPS servers in short order. Add in the 12 year olds that talk about how they "have what it takes" to play NC PvP (like playing this game makes someone a tough guy) and your PvP community is an offensive mess. The idiots that endlessly whine about "carebears" are the ones that probably can't compete in a real skill-based PvP environment. If they could, they wouldn't be in a game like this one where ambushing lower level characters is the most common form of PvP.
The lame PvP setup and the large number of offensive children that overrun the game do more damage to its sales prospects than about anything else.
I'll stick to hunting mutants and go PvP where endlessly camping spawn doesn't get you an advantage in the game.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The PvE is what is keeping this game alive, not the PvP. The LE changes made the game better.
PvP in this game is a joke, any catass can camp spawn until he gets to a high level and gain cool gear before he PvPs. Not only that, but the game has griefers and cheaters that would be banned from the normal FPS servers in short order. Add in the 12 year olds that talk about how they "have what it takes" to play NC PvP (like playing this game makes someone a tough guy) and your PvP community is an offensive mess. The idiots that endlessly whine about "carebears" are the ones that probably can't compete in a real skill-based PvP environment. If they could, they wouldn't be in a game like this one.
The lame PvP setup and the large number of offensive children that overrun the game do more damage to its sales prospects than about anything else.
I'll stick to hunting mutants and go PvP where endlessly camping spawn doesn't get you an advantage in the game.
o_O o_O o_O
Not only did you get mixed up between PvE and PvP, you also made possibly the least true statement ever made on these forums. The PvP in Neocron is the SOLE REASON for its success. If this was a pure PvE game, it would be completely and utterly dead by now. You've been posting a lot of stuff which was only just arguably true, but this is completely and utterly wrong.
Exactly what is wrong?
PvP in this game is dominated by high level characters, not skilled players. No one that is serious about PvP plays this game, not when it gives the advantage to the catass who lives in front of his computer all day long.
The actual facts (something that many in this forum try to avoid at all costs) is that online PvP gaming is a small market segment, a monthly subscription game that offers it as a primary feature is almost doomed from the start. If you ever read any marketing studies of the gamer demographic you'd know this. PlanetSide is faltering and losing customers, Shadowbane is not doing well, and this game has the lowest subscription rates of any MMOG on the market. The only PvP online game that is doing well in any way is WWIIOL, and that is only due to the large number of people who are interested in WWII. AO, a game that is similar in setting to NC and that is mostly PvE, is doing reasonably well. They are at least going to publish their expansion, not just talk about it.
It is the PvP focus of this game that hurts it, a fact that is well known outside these forums. The only people that don't know it (or refuse to accept it) are a small portion of the slowly dwindling number of players of this game.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
Exactly what is wrong?
PvP in this game is dominated by high level characters, not skilled players. No one that is serious about PvP plays this game, not when it gives the advantage to the catass who lives in front of his computer all day long.
You see, that's just plain wrong. You're talking about the PvP in other MMORPGs, which consists of 2 people bashing each other, higher level wins. I have only just capped a char. Yet I have beaten capped chars in fights. There is an element of character level involved, however the short levelling time means this is is mostly irrelevant. And since there's level caps, spending time levelling only gives you so much of an advantage. You can spend 6 months doing nothing but PvM and come out with a capped char, but you'll get completely sated by the guy who's still a while off capping but spent the last month at OP fights. If nobody is interested in PvP, then why are there organised PvP events, yet no organised hunts? Every Saturday night players on Pluto duel each other to see who is the best. There was recently a Saturn PvP tournament. Every single day there are fights between large clans over OPs. You're telling me this isn't PvP?
Just because it's not Quake does not mean it is not PvP, and it does not mean there is any less skill involved. If anything, there is more required, because there is your char setup to take into account, and there are the 4 different classes, and the different weapon types, which all have their advantages and disadvantages, compared to FPSs in which everyone is the same and almost all the guns are just as effective as each other. It takes far more to weigh up the differences between a monk and a PE, to decide which weapons you will specialise in, to decide which weapons you will specialise in defending against, do I use that Exp Ballistic Chip 3 so I can use RoG or do I opt for Distance Weapon CPU 3 and get a higher RoF on my PE?
You forget, again and again, that this game's success isn't about how many people play it. You think a small time developer like KK ever stood a chance of attracting the sheer number of players that EA games do? Of course they didn't, and they knew that from the start. Not everything in this world revolves around higher numbers, be it in profit or in subscribers. For once someone makes a game without thinking about how much money they're going to make, and Neocron is the result. It may not be polished, it may not be perfect, but it's a damn sight more fun than any other online game I've ever played.
The PvP focus of this game may scare people off. But who cares? Those people are the same people who would come onto this forum and whine that PvM is boring, that another player attacked them without asking, that they went into a dangerous area and died, that an NPC took money from them and didn't give them anything for it. Let the people who like EQ play EQ, and let the people who like playing Neocron play Neocron. But don't preach here about which MMORPG has the most subscribers, or which online game has made the most profit, because frankly, we don't care, since that's got nothing to do with this game, at all, end of story.
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 05:09
scikar its success derives from the possibility for both types of players to exist. Non pvpers and pvpers.
Not one or the other but both.
I'm a non-PvP person, yet I'm in one of the most PvP oriented clans on Pluto.
You can easily get along as a non-PvPer in Neocron, you just have to work at building relations.
You can't play the loner and expect to live, yet if you make acquantances and people know you, and that you're not a ganker-type-person; you're golden.
But don't preach here about which MMORPG has the most subscribers, or which online game has made the most profit, because frankly, we don't care, since that's got nothing to do with this game, at all, end of story.
That is a rather short sighted attitude, and I doubt that the investors that lost money bringing this game out so you could play it would agree. You got your game so you don't give a fuck about the people who spent money to get it to you. Typical and selfish.
If this game had a decent sized subscriber base the game would have more regular updates, expansions that actually were delivered, better support, bugs would be fixed, etc.
Originally posted by IronMonkey
scikar its success derives from the possibility for both types of players to exist. Non pvpers and pvpers.
Not one or the other but both.
Not at all. The PvM element in Neocron exists purely to support the PvP element. That's why none of the mobs are particularly intelligent, and it's why there is little reason to do any PvM when capped. The whole PvP system is designed around rewarding players who RP in their PvP, at least to the extent of limiting their fights to those against enemy runners. The LE itself was never intended for permanent use, it was merely intended as a levelling tool for those who found that being killed by other players who they couldn't scratch was obstructing their levelling. In a move towards the pure PvM, EQ style players, KK removed the limitations on the LE. Yet it is still rarely used by high level players, yes there are a couple around, but a prime reason why 99% of the population of high level chars have their LE chips out is because the PvM is boring. Without the PvP players would leave this game in droves, whereas removing PvM would isolate only a very small percentage of the population (though of course it would eventually destroy PvP as the population is divided into those with xp, and those without).
Without the PvP players would leave this game in droves,
Just because people keep repeating this doesn't make it true.
PvM MMOGs are consistantly more successful than PvP MMOGs.
but a prime reason why 99% of the population of high level chars have their LE chips out is because the PvM is boring
Or they have it out because they no longer have to worry about someone twice their level ganking them.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
That is a rather short sighted attitude, and I doubt that the investors that lost money bringing this game out so you could play it would agree. You got your game so you don't give a fuck about the people who spent money to get it to you. Typical and selfish.
If this game had a decent sized subscriber base the game would have more regular updates, expansions that actually were delivered, better support, bugs would be fixed, etc.
... and it wouldn't be Neocron because to attract those same players you would need to make serious changes to the game, and it wouln't be Neocron any more, it would be CarebearCron, or MonsterCron, or TimeSinkCron.
Tell me, who are these mysterious investors you like to talk about? They don't exist, as you will notice when you start the game up, you see only ReaKKtor, a division of Schweizer Systems Ltd. The whole thing has been basically funded by MJS, and that's exactly why nobody gives a damn about squeezing every last penny out of the subscribers. Tell me, if there were outside investors who had lost money in this game, would they allow KK to charge so little for subscription? Do you see a price of $6 a month on any other MMORPG with officially maintained servers? Is there anywhere to download these other online games? No, there isn't.
It takes millions to bring a game to market these days, and unless this person you mentioned had millions to toss away then there were investors behind the game who lost money. You don't see investors names in game credits but they are the ones paying for them in a lot of cases. I've worked in the gaming industry and seen the investor gathering process needed to bring a game to the consumer.
Only some ignorant 12 year old would believe that this game was made for no money and is just there to let you play the way you want to, it was a project intended to make money and it ended up losing money.
In addition, this game costs 9.99 not $6 (and the price for NC is going up, or so I read). NC currently charges the same price as UO and EQ(or did UO and EQ finally raise their prices?). Try to get your facts straight.
SilentGravity
01-09-03, 05:33
Originally posted by Scikar
... and it wouldn't be Neocron because to attract those same players you would need to make serious changes to the game, and it wouln't be Neocron any more, it would be CarebearCron, or MonsterCron, or TimeSinkCron.
Tell me, who are these mysterious investors you like to talk about? They don't exist, as you will notice when you start the game up, you see only ReaKKtor, a division of Schweizer Systems Ltd. The whole thing has been basically funded by MJS, and that's exactly why nobody gives a damn about squeezing every last penny out of the subscribers. Tell me, if there were outside investors who had lost money in this game, would they allow KK to charge so little for subscription? Do you see a price of $6 a month on any other MMORPG with officially maintained servers? Is there anywhere to download these other online games? No, there isn't.
Well Neo means New, thus its a Newcron, and cron I belive is short for chrono which means time, so its NewTime.
So maybe Neocron = each time its a new bug ;)
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 05:35
Originally posted by Scikar
... and it wouldn't be Neocron because to attract those same players you would need to make serious changes to the game, and it wouln't be Neocron any more, it would be CarebearCron, or MonsterCron, or TimeSinkCron.
this isnt quite true. It is possible to maintain both lifestyles while not effecting eachother.
The point is KK has such a runaway hit on their hands. Yet, there are some simple issues that need to be solved. To bring that to the forefront. Solutions require coders of course. Solutions require pissing off 20-30 people of course. Yet these solutions wouldnt effect those whom love actual pvp that is neocron. And thsoe that love the non pvp side. Solutions that could also add more physical RP to the pvp. Rather than just red = dead. These also require coders and modelers(for npcs n scripts n database issues). Yet guess what those same npcs would interact with the non pvp players. so in esence the non pvpers would live off the pvp'ers sucess. There are many many ways to handle these simple issues. Manyw ays in which would not provide any detriment to the pvp enviornment but rather enhance it make it more fun to pvp and more worthwhile. While allowing the non pvpers to grow and mold and perhaps slowly work their way into the pvp enviornment for the riches and fame.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
It takes millions to bring a game to market these days, and unless this person you mentioned had millions to toss away then there were investors behind the game who lost money. You don't see investors names in game credits but they are the ones paying for them in a lot of cases. I've worked in the gaming industry and seen the investor gathering process needed to bring a game to the consumer.
Only some ignorant 12 year old would believe that this game was made for no money and is just there to let you play the way you want to, it was a project intended to make money and it ended up losing money.
In addition, this game costs 9.99 not $6 (and the price for NC is going up, or so I read). NC currently charges the same price as UO and EQ(or did UO and EQ finally raise their prices?). Try to get your facts straight.
Once again, you're thinking big. This isn't a big game. It never had the biggest minds in the industry working on it. Stop thinking about EA and America for a minute and remember that this is a tiny company in Germany, whose other projects were all cancelled in order to devote everything they could to this game. Just because you've worked in the gaming industry does not mean you can say with 100% certainty that there were investors in this game who lost money. Neocron isn't dead yet. It won't die until another game comes along to cater to this player base. Games like EQ and UO eventually die as their sequels are released, and players move on to the next big thing. There is no next big thing after Neocron, the way ahead is only Neocron 2, because the bug companies like EA consider it a waste of money. It's not worth their time trying to make a game fit to the players that Neocron caters for, because they simplay couldn't do it, they feel the need to spend exhorbitant amounts of money on a game and then they NEED to get that money back afterwards.
I can't believe you would sink to the level of dropping the old ignorant 12 year old comment. I might as well reply with "Only an ignorant, capitalist American would try to tell me that every game has to have millions spent on it and has to make millions in profit in return."
And that 6 was actually referring to £6, the $ was just a typo.
IronMonkey, you finally make a point I agree with. The fact is, KK can't afford all these modellers and coders. The work still gets done, it's just the development cycle is longer. We still have DoY to come, and after that things like HackNet. With such a limited budget, players just have to learn to be patient. The delay in DoY is testing a lot of people's patience, that much is clear, but until KK find a new publisher there is little they can do about it. As MJS said, a new publisher to relaunch NC with DoY is what they're waiting for, and in the mean time they may as well add more and more to DoY, iron out balancing issues, add a little new content. Once DoY is out, that gives the devs time to get to work fixing the bugs that they never had time for. If they concentrated on bugs now, people would ask where DoY is. If they get DoY out, and it's fantastic, that will keep the player base happy long enough to get the bugs under control.
Originally posted by Scikar
The fact is, KK can't afford all these modellers and coders. The work still gets done, it's just the development cycle is longer. We still have DoY to come, and after that things like HackNet. With such a limited budget, players just have to learn to be patient.
w3rd.
Once again, you're thinking big
You have no idea what you are talking about. Someone had to pay the people who worked on the game. 3D art resources are very expensive. You cannot bring a game, even a small one (and this one isn't that small) to market for less than several million dollars. Backend coding, servers, bandwidth, etc are expensive. NC was not produced as a hobby, it took a lot of money. Where did they get their netcode from? Homegrown net code takes a lot of time to create and buying a license for one is expensive.
It took around 3 years to produce NC if I recall correctly, I'd conservatively estimate that it took at least 3 million (more likely 4-5 million).
Originally posted by Alex Mars
You have no idea what you are talking about. Someone had to pay the people who worked on the game. 3D art resources are very expensive. You cannot bring a game, even a small one (and this one isn't that small) to market for less than several million dollars. Backend coding, servers, bandwidth, etc are expensive. NC was not produced as a hobby, it took a lot of money. Where did they get their netcode from? Homegrown net code takes a lot of time to create and buying a license for one is expensive.
It took around 3 years to produce NC if I recall correctly, I'd conservatively estimate that it took at least 3 million (more likely 4-5 million).
NC is based around an old engine, heavily modified to suit the game, but one that KK have worked on before in earlier games. The fact that you do not know what you're talking about is shown in the fact that you think anyone got paid dollars. Not likely. You're looking at Marks and Euros here, and you have no more information than I do about where MJS's money comes from. How do you know MJS doesn't have the money to invest in this game? What makes you so 100% certain that the funds for this game didn't come from Schweizer Systems Ltd.?
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 06:22
actually its based around 2 engines one pre done and modified to work within one they made.
3 million in dollars or equivalent, it is still money that didn't come from under rock. Whoever paid it (even if it was this MJS you mention), it cost a lot of money to produce the game, and that investment wasn't repaid. Does this MJS have a fortune to spend on a game just to please you with no thought of a return?
Where do you think companies get money for new projects? Not all companies have deep pockets full of millions of dollars, they have to go out to raise investment money also.
Originally posted by IronMonkey
actually its based around 2 engines one pre done and modified to work within one they made.
Genesis3D and Tekktonic, I believe. Genesis3D was used for the interior areas, while the Tekktonic engine was used for the wasteland terrain.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
3 million in dollars or equivalent, it is still money that didn't come from under rock. Whoever paid it (even if it was this MJS you mention), it cost a lot of money to produce the game, and that investment wasn't repaid. Does this MJS have a fortune to spend on a game just to please you with no thought of a return?
Where do you think companies get money for new projects? Not all companies have deep pockets full of millions of dollars, they have to go out to raise investment money also.
MJS = Martin J. Schweizer, the CEO and owner of Schweizer Systems Ltd, the parent company of ReaKKtor, and ultimately the owner of Neocron. It's his game, he made a promise that the game would be made how he wanted it to be, and that it wouldn't be directed purely towards profit.
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 06:26
yep and both had to be heavily revamped and recoded to work within eachother so that you could have bsp's work within topgraphicals and vice versa. KK put alot of time into this game. Yes the devlopment was expensive but i don't think it was as expensive as alex thinks. It's rather remakable tos ee what KK's small team did. I just don't want it to go all to waste etc. Which is why im rather vocal lol
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 06:31
Alex, before you try to take on an argument like this, it's probably best to either;
A) Stick around the forum a lil while longer.
or
B) Go read a few months worth of old topics.
No offence, but you're being seriously out classed, and out gunned, not because of your intelligence, or anything as such.
Simply, your lack of experience in this environment is leaving your points, wholely lacking staying power, and somewhat illogical to those that know most of the available facts.
I've remained quiet on this topic, more or less, however, seriously, I can say that this game, is doing fine for funding at this time.
Originally posted by IronMonkey
yep and both had to be heavily revamped and recoded to work within eachother so that you could have bsp's work within topgraphicals and vice versa. KK put alot of time into this game. Yes the devlopment was expensive but i don't think it was as expensive as alex thinks. It's rather remakable tos ee what KK's small team did. I just don't want it to go all to waste etc. Which is why im rather vocal lol
3 million is a lowball estimate, the usual estimate on the cost to bring a MMOG to market is 6-10+ million. One company that I know of spent 1.5 million getting to the point that they got investors to sign on to actually develop the game. The 1.5 million was for licenses, salaries, demo production (demo for the investors, not players), market research, etc.
These things are not cheap to produce.
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 06:34
Alex i know that but um Martin had this game made for fun lol
Literally
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 06:36
Based on roughly what I have seen of KK and everything I've gained in terms of info from them, their staff, their sub-staff, and some interjection from certain forum members.
I'm going to suggest to you:
You don't have a friggin clue how KK made this game. :p
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Alex, before you try to take on an argument like this, it's probably best to either;
A) Stick around the forum a lil while longer.
or
B) Go read a few months worth of old topics.
No offence, but you're being seriously out classed, and out gunned, not because of your intelligence, or anything as such.
Simply, your lack of experience in this environment is leaving your points, wholely lacking staying power, and somewhat illogical to those that know most of the available facts.
I've remained quiet on this topic, more or less, however, seriously, I can say that this game, is doing fine for funding at this time.
Hmmm...how many of you have seen the funding process for an MMOG at close range? I have.
If it is doing fine for funding, where is DoY and why does the game only employ 3 coders?
So far, all we have to counter what I know of the market is repeated objections that it couldn't have cost what I estimate and that there were no investors so no one lost money.
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 06:38
like for instance the cost of development is mainly manpower, and hardware. where as KK has had the development team the same size of the old beta mod counterstrike. Yet they created everything you see. It's quite the feat if you step back and look at it.
Marx i've seen the funding of 2 mmogs up close and personal. As well as numerous other games. SFX for movies. FMV intro outro scenes. I could go on and on. Thats why i stated what KK has accomplished is quite the feat.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
If it is doing fine for funding, where is DoY
Awaiting a new publisher before release.
Like QD said, do some reading into some older forum topics first.
CDV are bad because reakktor media ltd are unsatisfied with the support they have given to Neocron. Reakktor have the right to search for a company that suits there needs better. Maybe they arn't all that bad, but if reakktor media inc want a better publisher then they have every right to dump CDV and to find one.
Nuff Sed.
:cool:
If it is doing fine for funding, where is DoY and why does the game only employ 3 coders
Because its a smaller amicable group of people who work together based on similar interests and a shared goal.
DoY will be released when a new published is arranged, because its pretty much unanymous that CDV didn't do half the job they could have.
Hmmm...how many of you have seen the funding process for an MMOG at close range? I have
What game? I might be outclassed, but I'd still like to know.
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 06:43
Originally posted by IronMonkey
like for instance the cost of development is mainly manpower, and hardware. where as KK has had the development team the same size of the old beta mod counterstrike. Yet they created everything you see. It's quite the feat if you step back and look at it.
Cheap too.
Using familiar material, and already available hardware.
This is almost a backyard job, but done by professionals.
The Devs are skilled.
Reasons for DoY Delays have been given, if you choose not to believe them that's your problem, I myself stick to other sources for my information than this forum, however, this forum is a nice place to guage information.
Having been a programmer, having been an ace business student, having been a skilled counsellor, and only being 19, I do have a fair grounding in several ranged places, and I do, know Neocron pretty well.
Where MJS Posts, reassurance follows, Alex, just let it rest for a while, get to grips a bit more.
I have enough information to say there's no funding problems, there are a few safety nets that I would see hit, very frickin hard before I was worried about "funding." kay?
Trust me............of all people, I am keeping an eye on that situation. (Out of the players, at least...I don't know any non-GMs/Devs that have some of the insights I do....)
What game? I might be outclassed, but I'd still like to know
I can't tell you at this time. I am bound by NDAs. The game lost its investors during the financial panic after 9/11, then floundered along until the company went out of business. It took almost 2 years to get to the point that the team was 3 days away from getting a 2 million check to start actual development, then the WTC went down and the money vanished. The core assets are still held and some work is being done to try to find new investors but it doesn't look good, there are too many games on the market now.
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 06:50
ouch one of my projects got hit the same way
Really sucked to as if it wasnt bad enough that so many peoples relatives died. So many corps went under from it too. So not only did the victims loose their life but for a long tiem their families lost everythign they ever had.Alot of people don't realize how widespread that effect was.
The project I was working on at the time was being worked on by a Austin team and well they even lost their financial backing right after that. Some serious shit right there. 2 thousand miles away.
But thats for another topic
Regardless CDV is/was horrible they won't be around much longer. DoY will bring alot of changes that have been needed for a long time. The new publisher will be comming
QuantumDelta
01-09-03, 06:53
That narrows it down, a lot.
Ironic, the computer industry getting hit by a depression.
Heh, you realise that the computing industry (Software/Hardware in general) is always the last industry to go into a depression, and always the first to come out?
You know a different MMORPGs financial makeup. You do not Know Neocrons.
That's like comparing Wal*Mart to ASDA. (ASDA is a large, successful chain of supermarkets in england).
Wal*Mart Bought out ASDA, and started to install their system/financial plans/administrative structures into the stores, ya know what?
the big old american company that is a success everywhere, instantly fucked most of the ASDA Stores, Sales in the best ASDA Store (which had previously broke the 2mil in one week mark, which, btw, is the best sales in the WORLD for a super market). went down to the 500k mark, only the english staff, was what managed to bring the sales back up to the now 1.25 mil at which they currently stand.
Just because you know one beast in the market, does not, mean you know another, or even could guess at any other.
Why is this?
It's not the product that you must compare when you're talking about financial models, it's the company.
I seriously hope someone involved in a company, in a position where one would be able to see the financial model of the company, would realise, that several things are dictacted by very simple factors, while other things, often, far more major than most realise, dictated by the smallest, most insignificant structures in the business.
like for instance the cost of development is mainly manpower, and hardware. where as KK has had the development team the same size of the old beta mod counterstrike. Yet they created everything you see. It's quite the feat if you step back and look at it.
You'll never see me degrade KK anywhere on these forums. I know all this and have respected them since I started tooling with late beta 3.
And guys, I'm sorry. So far on these forums there have been at least.. four people that I recall in the past that claimed to work on MMORPG's. They were all lying.
I smell shit, but like I said, I don't particularly care.
Here's the thing - this is KK's game. Let them build it like *they* want to, because they're damned good at it, and they have a drive to get it finished. If you want things changed, check the brainport, because thats their prime spot for idea breeding.
edit - Typo
IronMonkey
01-09-03, 07:38
i'm sure u smell shit.
I'll give you a hint i'm from boston. Do your own research
Than again most people like for people to get themselves fired just so they can say i work for so and so on so and so lol
Regardless I don't really care whether u believe me or not lol. That isn't the point.
I'm not here to brag or have a whose is longer contest with you. I was here posting to try and get different viewpoints across. When you act like you know me and insult the skills I have. Which you know nothing about. Than sure I will respond to you just as eloquently
BlackPrince
01-09-03, 09:10
Originally posted by Alex Mars
The PvE is what is keeping this game alive, not the PvP. The LE changes made the game better.
PvP in this game is a joke, any catass can camp spawn until he gets to a high level and gain cool gear before he PvPs. Not only that, but the game has griefers and cheaters that would be banned from the normal FPS servers in short order. Add in the 12 year olds that talk about how they "have what it takes" to play NC PvP (like playing this game makes someone a tough guy) and your PvP community is an offensive mess. The idiots that endlessly whine about "carebears" are the ones that probably can't compete in a real skill-based PvP environment. If they could, they wouldn't be in a game like this one where ambushing lower level characters is the most common form of PvP.
The lame PvP setup and the large number of offensive children that overrun the game do more damage to its sales prospects than about anything else.
I'll stick to hunting mutants and go PvP where endlessly camping spawn doesn't get you an advantage in the game.
Its funny, the carebears who first whined for the LE, then whined for the removal of restrictions, and then whined for the new Hunting Zones no longer play. They promised a huge influx of people as soon as they could PvM safely, guess what, aint happened yet. If you want to PvM there are half a dozen better games out there that do it better and more fun than NC does it.
So I call 'bullshit' on any other claims the LE users make, because history has proven them to be full of bovine feces.
Its funny, the carebears who first whined for the LE, then whined for the removal of restrictions, and then whined for the new Hunting Zones no longer play. They promised a huge influx of people as soon as they could PvM safely, guess what, aint happened yet. If you want to PvM there are half a dozen better games out there that do it better and more fun than NC does it.
By then the reputation of the game was already ruined in the mind of the buying public, it was too late. Most potential players who know anything of the game have no idea anything was changed (it's not like this game gets any publicity). The general perception is that NC is a cesspool of griefing PKs that can kill newbs anywhere. Until the buying public knows that the game has changed (or until a boxed expansion hits store shelves) you won't see any large influx of players at all.
Yes, there are better PvM games out there, but none of the others remind me of Deus Ex so I'm playing this one (at least until DX:IW is out).
Originally posted by Alex Mars
By then the reputation of the game was already ruined in the mind of the buying public, it was too late. Most potential players who know anything of the game have no idea anything was changed (it's not like this game gets any publicity). The general perception is that NC is a cesspool of griefing PKs that can kill newbs anywhere. Until the buying public knows that the game has changed (or until a boxed expansion hits store shelves) you won't see any large influx of players at all.
Yes, there are better PvM games out there, but none of the others remind me of Deus Ex so I'm playing this one (at least until DX:IW is out).
If the game has changed like you say, why did you say in your above post that:
Originally posted by Alex Mars
PvP in this game is dominated by high level characters, not skilled players. No one that is serious about PvP plays this game, not when it gives the advantage to the catass who lives in front of his computer all day long.
It is the PvP focus of this game that hurts it, a fact that is well known outside these forums. The only people that don't know it (or refuse to accept it) are a small portion of the slowly dwindling number of players of this game.
The truth is the game hasn't changed at all, because no matter how many times you try and argue against it, Neocron is a PvP game, and the PvM side exists only to support the PvP by letting you level your character. You're whining in the wrong place - Neocron will never cater for anybody who played EQ and liked it. Nobody wants a huge surge of new players if every single one of those players is going to spend every hour of playing time with an LE in killing monsters. We want a surge of people who will learn to fight, start clans, and then we can have epic battles with 50, or 100 people per side. Those are the people we want, not carebears who spend all day killing monsters and then whine to KK when they have to do some actual work while their last MMORPG, which they left when they capped their character, did all that work for them.
Despite your attempt to confuse the issue, those two posts are about separate issues. Try to keep up.
The first post is about how the public views the game, the second is about how I perceive the intricacies of NC PvP. Your attempt to link the two is inept, unless your reading comprehension is really that bad.
I'm not saying that it isn't a PvP game, I'm just saying that as a PvP game the winner is most likely to be the highest level character with the coolest rare gun, not the player with the highest skill (and I've read posts complaining about this aspect of the game). That makes it a substandard PvP game in my book, I prefer a PvP environment where the winner is not likely to be the guy that camped the monsters the longest so he could get the coolest weapon that is rare and hard to find.
I'm not saying that it isn't a PvP game, I'm just saying that as a PvP game the winner is most likely to be the highest level character with the coolest rare gun, not the player with the highest skill
Well the lower ranking person stands a better chance of winning than in games like DAoC, EQ, Shadowbane, UO... well, most games actually.
So you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
If you want a game where skill is the say-all be-all of who wins, get yourself a FPS (Battlefeild 1942 is good.), not a level/skill-based FPS.
EDIT, added a word.
Originally posted by Marx
Well the lower ranking person stands a better chance of winning than in games like DAoC, EQ, Shadowbane, UO... well, most games actually.
That is totally irrelevant, we are talking about NC.
So you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Actually, you just confirmed my statement with your observation above, about how they stand a "better" chance (indicating that they don't stand a good chance).
If you want a game where skill is the say-all be-all of who wins, get yourself a FPS (Battlefeild 1942 is good.), not a level/skill-based FPS.
I do play those kind of games for PvP, I avoid level based PvP most of the time (although I'll try NC PvP at some point).
That is totally irrelevant, we are talking about NC.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
I'm not saying that it isn't a PvP game, I'm just saying that as a PvP game the winner is most likely to be the highest level character with the coolest rare gun, not the player with the highest skill (and I've read posts complaining about this aspect of the game). That makes it a substandard PvP game in my book, I prefer a PvP environment where the winner is not likely to be the guy that camped the monsters the longest so he could get the coolest weapon that is rare and hard to find.
NC is the best level/skill based FPS MMORPG out there, because now there are more - all of which claim to be 'the first'.
In every other game out there which have been toted as 'PvP games', You're going to die if the person you fight has a higher level than you. Thats the way it is.
EDIT: Simply because FPS games don't tote their own material as "PvP games". I've only seen the term PvP used in widescale fashion within MMORPGs.
Actually, you just confirmed my statement with your observation above, about how they stand a "better" chance (indicating that they don't stand a good chance).
If you're scrawny with a pen knife, you're going to die to the steroid fiend with the vulcan cannon.
things are the way they are now, because it makes no sense to make it so a rank 1/2 n00b can take on a 50/XX tank, PE, or Spy.
If they could, there would be no purpose to leveling, no purpose for super fancy weapons.
All of which deviates from the idea of this being a MMORPG
I do play those kind of games for PvP, I avoid level based PvP most of the time (although I'll try NC PvP at some point).
Then why attempt to change NC PvP if you haven't even fucking tried it?
ZoneVortex
01-09-03, 21:17
Is CDV so bad?
Hmm yes. Look at the shitty job they did getting Neocron published/distributed throughout the US atleast. I don't really know the situation in Europe.
Originally posted by Alex Mars
Despite your attempt to confuse the issue, those two posts are about separate issues. Try to keep up.
The first post is about how the public views the game, the second is about how I perceive the intricacies of NC PvP. Your attempt to link the two is inept, unless your reading comprehension is really that bad.
I'm not saying that it isn't a PvP game, I'm just saying that as a PvP game the winner is most likely to be the highest level character with the coolest rare gun, not the player with the highest skill (and I've read posts complaining about this aspect of the game). That makes it a substandard PvP game in my book, I prefer a PvP environment where the winner is not likely to be the guy that camped the monsters the longest so he could get the coolest weapon that is rare and hard to find.
Read again. In your first post you describe the way the public sees this game, but you say it has changed, even if public perception hasn't. Yet in your earlier post your description of PvP in Neocron is exactly on par with this public perception. How can you then say that the game has changed?
And the winner in Neocron PvP, not that you would know since you haven't even tried it is not just the guy with best equipment. Having better equipment gives you an advantage. But if you can't shoot for shit, then you're not going to kill anyone are you? That's exactly how my /34 rifle PE beat a capped tank. I ran rings around him, even though he was using a TL105 CS, possibly the most powerful weapon in the game and also a rare, I beat him using a non-rare, TL53, HEW Liquid Fire rifle. That's the difference between PvP in Neocron and PvP in other MMORPGs - you still have a chance. If you prefer your fights to be based entirely on your twitch skills, then you will never be satisfied with PvP in any MMORPG. And no matter how much you cry for it, this game is not going to turn into Planetside, and it's not going to go the other way and turn into EQ.
SilentGravity
02-09-03, 02:11
Can we please get back on topic, this is about who is more at fault, KK or CDV for Neocrons current state of..sucking...:lol:
Not about PvP, but as MJS said in a interview this IS A PVP BASED GAME, it was made for PvP.
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