View Full Version : Unauthorized Spy PA Discussion
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 17:45
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=73574
Well Callash my next post WAS going to be a thank you for actually activly DISCUSSING these things with us, then you go and close it. Why I don't understand out of all those posts only one or 2 were even close to a display of selfishness considering most of them werent even spies. I found the thread rather contructive in the fact that now we know they wont have INT reqs, and that combat spies are getting fucked over completely with the WEP/WPW bonuses all we were doing towards the end was throwing out possibly options as to what to do to make it equally fair for droners and rifler/pistolers.....
I have a feeling this will be closed but i would like to continue it anyway...
The last option touched was adding TC to one and RCL to another..do you think this is fair/useful? or shoudl they both add TC?
BlackPrince
29-08-03, 17:48
WPW for a rifle spy is beyond worthless. Maybe for a Constructor it would work, but most constructors use pistols, at least thats teh case in my experience.
The old stats for a R-C and RCL bonus were perfect. Every other classes PA boosts their primary 'Combat' stat, why spies should be any different is beyond me. Even T-C isn't that big of a deal, but the amount of WPW that would free up in the current states means I wouldn't even bother wearing it.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
in the current states means I wouldn't even bother wearing it.
o_O you are remembering it gives a boost to both dex and resists? Tc would be a great compromise, yes pc and rc would better but where that cant be the case tc seems like the best option, allowing a better stealth tool or freeing up somemore points for rc :)
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 17:54
Well if u look at the stats *first post in the linked thread* WPW was only added to the droner suit...so WPW being useless to riflers is both obvious and moot. The real issues...
1)Spy PA doesnt benefit Pistol users
2)Using WPW/WEP bonuses does nothing for true combat spies...only for tradeskilling droners and rifle users(again nothing for PC users)
3)Adding TC does not equally benefit droners and RC users...
[EDIT] and yea Cyph has a huge point...at 100 DEX you get 123 xray and force/pierce protection..a measly -4 INT is NOTHING to a spy at those levels not to mention most spies i know wouldnt be very effected by the END hit either.
Shadow Dancer
29-08-03, 17:56
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
3)Adding TC does not equally benefit droners and RC users...
Droners wouldn't get TC bonus. I remember you said droners would end up getting a bigger bonus than rifle/pistol spies. Well giving a bit extra TC might compensate. Like +16 TC at PA2 and +10 um "main stat" for droning.
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
Well if u look at the stats *first post in the linked thread* WPW was only added to the droner suit...so WPW being useless to riflers is both obvious and moot. The real issues...
1)Spy PA doesnt benefit Pistol users
2)Using WPW/WEP bonuses does nothing for true combat spies...only for tradeskilling droners and rifle users(again nothing for PC users)
3)Adding TC does not equally benefit droners and RC users...
I agree on all your points, although on 3 i have no problem with droners getting a extra boost, atm they need all the boosts they can get :) tc would benefit both rc and pistol combat allowing for more points in the skill or a chance to viable use higher lvl stealth, oblitorator or stealth 3 :)
As Sigma pointed, the tech combat addition instead rifle combat should be looked at carefully. While everyone needs r-c/p-c/h-c/apu/ppu over 100 points to use the top weapons, the tech combat is a mere req, so not everybody..
1- use it
2- has 100+ points in it (probably no one has so much t-c)
The first idea of KK was, maybe not perfect, but balanced in most senses.
If KK wants to make a pistol spy PA, then they will add p-c to the combat bonus. If they want pistols made only for PE's, then that's the way to go.
I have in retail one spy of each class (drone, pistol, rifle). Maybe I dont see it fair for all of them, but I see balance and fair reasons in the words of Callash.
Remember that all these changes started in an attemp to satisfy the community interests.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Droners wouldn't get TC bonus. I remember you said droners would end up getting a bigger bonus than rifle/pistol spies. Well giving a bit extra TC might compensate. Like +16 TC at PA2 and +10 um "main stat" for droning.
great idea :) and dont think anyone could argue with that...
This is a snippet of what I was going to post before the thread got locked.
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An AGL boost on one PA would be unfair on the other, whereas a T-C boost will help those who use Pistols, Rifles or even Heavy Combat or Melee o_O
Using this PA would mean I could boost my R-C by about 15-20 levels, this would be fantastic. As for people who dont use T-C, you wont have much problem capping a lowtech weapon as you'll have additional points you didnt spend in T-C.
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well the SPY PA is really only for combat spies what ever the stats. which it should be. as i have no intention of giving up my high research skill. there is no point in me bothering about the PA. keeping my tradeskill means i won't be able to cap any stats on rares. therefore using them is pointless.
now i'm happy to except that i'm an easy target. with little in the way of defense apart from the stealth tools.
now if spies who really want to do combat. they will have to face the fact they can't have a tradeskill like research or construction of any real high level. if they can except that then the PA will be for them.
Shadow, if to compensate the less skill points bonus, we add more into t-c bonuses of PA, then it could be exploited by people to in fact get an extra reward over the other classes.
Cyphor, I argued with this.
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 18:04
yes if they add TC to one and RCL to another droners get a huge extra bonus, if they add TC to both (which makes them the same suit now o.0 ) then it benefits RC users more..seeing as droners would only need it for stealth...if you compensate by adding more TC then RCL i suppose yes you could balance it out but depending on how much TC higher stealths use (obli esspecially) if there is any setup that uses 100+ TC base it would give them a great advantage..if there is no conceivable setup that uses 100TC base then were ok :P
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
[EDIT] .....not to mention most spies i know wouldnt be very effected by the END hit either.
You sure about that?
My spy's would end up with negative END, if they were wearing the PA.
Sure I could pump up END, but those are points I would have rather put into Resists....
I'm not sure if I would use the Spy PA or not, the +Xray looks pretty tasty, but with no direct combat bonus, I dunno.....
What sigma said, you can use a setup which needs 100+ T-C, therefore having i.e. +20 t-c instead +16 r-c to compensate, would result in a way to explot the PA.
I'd say either add p-c bonuses, or leave it as it is.
Spoon, I dont think you can have negatives in a subskill. At most say, you would end with 0 endurance.
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 18:09
its your loss then really...we wont mention you have never played anything but a tank as your main.....Tank PA is alot diff then Spy PA because ATL is a much needed skill tank PA kills that..not to mention has horrible armour...spy PA has great armour and no noteworthy penalties.....seeing as most every spy has 1 spare slot for stamina boosters on his QB..so unless yur spy setup already has you taking an INT hit spy PA is all ups and no downs.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Spoon, I dont think you can have negatives in a subskill. At most say, you would end with 0 endurance.
Yeah, it would be 0, I was trying to be dramatic....
Originally posted by Sleawer
Shadow, if to compensate the less skill points bonus, we add more into t-c bonuses of PA, then it could be exploited by people to in fact get an extra reward over the other classes.
Cyphor, I argued with this.
:(
and the only bonus anyone could get is makeing the oblitorator viable without gimping, by loming tc to compensate will only give equal if not slightly less of a boost to their main skill.
The oblitorator is something that wouldnt be overpowering as its useless for a combat tool, its only good for running away unless you want to use drugs. Its a rare thats been implimented but atm not many use as its not that viable, adding tc would make it viable. As long as the values are thought out for tc so that noone loming tc can get a unfair boost it should be fine :)
i think he meant like i have +21 in END now yet with the suit i'd end up with 0. least i think thats what he means.
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 18:11
what is the TC req on obli and stealth 3?
i think its 105 and 120 not 100% sure long time since i looked.
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 18:14
then its moot...+20 TC from imps is cake....if PA added more TC then RCL to compensate it would balance out perfectly..jsut because anyone exploiting that by having over 100TC base is completely gimped in the first place and gets no real 'exploit' out of it.
Cyphor you cannot base an argument on the desire of some people to use the obliterator. The PA has to be fair in all senses, and in the imposibility to this, at least it has to be "balanced".
The PA should be like others, with r-c, p-c or rcl. Nothing else. There are a very fair ammount of variables in implants and setup to possibily exploit the PA with success.
And the possible boost exploit would be for those lomming t-c into r-c or p-c, but for those who chose to wear different implants, and keep the base tech combat over 100 points. Hence you face an unbalance:
- Add same t-c as the old r-c, therefore making the PA giving less main skill effective points
- Add more to compensate and accept possible exploits.
As I have said, the PA should add r-c, p-c or rcl. KK's decision.
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 18:17
i agree it should add RC/PC/RCL or all 3...(seeing as an RC/PC hybrid is nothing like an APU/PPU hybrid) but apparently KK doesnt want to add main combat skills according to Callash's last thread..they want to do WPW/WEP which is USELESS to everything but a tradeskilling rifle/drone user.
FirestarXL
29-08-03, 18:18
Can we get an answer as to why having both P-C and R-C stats on the same suit seems to have been dismissed?
But on the other hand, if the reason is a good one, then I would rate having a T-C bonus much more advantageous than having a WPL bonus.
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
its your loss then really...we wont mention you have never played anything but a tank as your main.....Tank PA is alot diff then Spy PA because ATL is a much needed skill tank PA kills that..not to mention has horrible armour...spy PA has great armour and no noteworthy penalties.....seeing as most every spy has 1 spare slot for stamina boosters on his QB..so unless yur spy setup already has you taking an INT hit spy PA is all ups and no downs.
You talking to me?
I got 2 Spy's on Saturn, fairly high level but not capped(a Reseacher/driver and a Hacker and mid-level Hacker on Uranus....:p
And there's no way my Researcher/Driver Spy would want to take that INT hit.....
btw, I've only been playing my Tank on Pluto for the last two weeks, you know that, you've got, what, one Spy in retail?
*EDIT*
@Firestar, I don't know why they don't want to put RC and PC on the same PA, afterall, aren't there a few CPU's that give PC and RC?
Originally posted by Sleawer
Cyphor you cannot base an argument on the desire of some people to use the obliterator. The PA has to be fair in all senses, and in the imposibility to this, at least it has to be "balanced".
The reasoning isnt the desire to use the oblitorator its atm there is nothing in the game requireing more tc than the oblitorator. So as said above noone should have more than 100 points in tc anyway without gimping due to imps. So noone should be able to exploit.
But ok i was wrong there are argments against it :p In my oppionion though it seems like the next best thing to simply giving rc and pc.
Shadow Dancer
29-08-03, 18:25
Originally posted by NeoLojik
As for people who dont use T-C, you wont have much problem capping a lowtech weapon as you'll have additional points you didnt spend in T-C.
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Good point, and the armor still gives great resists. I wonder why a spy would go without stealth.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Shadow, if to compensate the less skill points bonus, we add more into t-c bonuses of PA, then it could be exploited by people to in fact get an extra reward over the other classes.
How would that be an extra reward?
+10 to main stat is basically 50 skill points. I don't know if spies have more TC than base 100. But if they don't, and they get +10 TC, then they get less than 50 skill points.
See what I mean?
It's like if our PA gave us +10 mst instead of +10 apu, well you know. I'm sure you wouldn't like that. :p
Another thing, why does KK always seem to "make" strict rules for themselves that doesn't need to be?
The spy is the only class that can go 3 ways IMO. So why not just give them 3 friggin pas? How on earth would that hurt?
nobody seems to be thinking for the droners at all...we are the most useless pvp class currently in the game no droner seem to have spoken yet, but WPW is like....... 30% of damage and RCL 70%, I agreed of collash's original settings for the armor now we droners have to suffer because of an stupid argument.
Every class has about 2 primary weapons for PE it would be rifle or pistols. If indeed tradeskillers use pistols then forget about them why is like an architect or engineer supposed to be a soldier anyway? TC is meaninless to droners weather you add it or not we are not going to waste 90 TC points use to use stealth...in the bottom line rifles and drones are the meant weapons for spies, and if you go pistols because of tradeskill don't whine because you still do good damage and get good armor. So leave us alone and we can have the old settings.
Unless someone comes out of a radical idea but I can't think of anything unless the armor adds both r-c and p-c. The current set up allows you to free some of your t-c for r-c or p-c giving more freedom, but the current drone setup is just a reduced version of the armor from the last setting.
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
How would that be an extra reward?
+10 to main stat is basically 50 skill points. I don't know if spies have more TC than base 100. But if they don't, and they get +10 TC, then they get less than 50 skill points.
See what I mean?
It's like if our PA gave us +10 mst instead of +10 apu, well you know. I'm sure you wouldn't like that. :p
Another thing, why does KK always seem to "make" strict rules for themselves that doesn't need to be?
The spy is the only class that can go 3 ways IMO. So why not just give them 3 friggin pas? How on earth would that hurt?
Nothing to add to that. With SA, SF, Distance 3 and Rifle Buff 1, I get +22 T-C, so to use the Obliterator I only need 88 base T-C, yet to get good stats on Disruptor or FL, you need around 190 R-C. I won't bother doing all the maths, I'm sure you can see what we are getting at. With the T-C bonus instead of R-C, Obliterator would still gimp my ability to use high-end rifles.
Originally posted by FirestarXL
Can we get an answer as to why having both P-C and R-C stats on the same suit seems to have been dismissed?
But on the other hand, if the reason is a good one, then I would rate having a T-C bonus much more advantageous than having a WPL bonus.
They would have to branch a new section of code to handle that number of bonus's just for spy PA. The present code has a limit to the number of bonus's that can be applied.
(note: this is not from a dev but speculation from my own knowledge as a programmer)
Disturbed021
29-08-03, 18:37
I think they went with 2 PAs for each class cause thats all other classes have as viable weapons types.
Tanks - HC or MC
PEs - PC or RC
Monks - PPU or APU
Problem is if they made 3 PAs for spies (like they prolly should have) we would have the Tanks, PEs and maybe the monkeys bitchin that they only have 2 PAs.
Tanks could make the argument that they should get PC PA too.
PEs could make the argument they should get HC and MC PA also.
Monkeys can't really make a viable argument but I could see them wanting like PC PA for the PPU monkeys or sumthing just so they have 3 types.
So, Callash said that they decided to go with the 2 most common and more viable of the 3 main weapons Spies can use; RC and Droning.
Imo it was fine.
Also, Callash said that adding PC and RC to the PA wasn't an option...he didn't say why. Could have to do with the coming DoY and new items. Maybe there will be more imps that add PC and RC and could eventually allow spies to use both Pistols and Rifles well.
Shadow Dancer
29-08-03, 18:39
Originally posted by Disturbed021
Tanks could make the argument that they should get PC PA too.
Their main stat isn't high enough, and they don't have high level pistols for it.
Originally posted by Disturbed021
PEs could make the argument they should get HC and MC PA also.
Same as tank.
IMO I really haven't heard a good arguement against there being a 3rd pa for spies. No other class has a third possible weapon skill with high level weapons made for THEM ONLY.
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 18:47
Basically KK APPARENTLY doesnt want spies with PC..they wont say why..and then they put thing out here that we have to judge based on our EXTREMELY LIMITED KNOWLEDGE...and we get no explanation..man..im so pissed after this plaza 1 event...im in an extreme anti-KK/GM mode...and saying this..im going to blame KK or other such responsible individuals for their lack of explanation..as per fucking usual..
Shadow Dancer
29-08-03, 18:49
IT's just odd that the slasher pistol was added recently, it's reqs make it a spy pistol.
Well, using at least PA3 and the mininal combat chips, I cant see an effective way to exploit it... tho I'm not good as a exploiter :p
If the t-c bonus is enought to compensate the points in r-c given by the previous PA, I wouldn't mind it. Dont know why, but I smell the incomming PA with only r-c/rcl anyway.. I might be wrong.
Disturbed021
29-08-03, 18:54
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
Their main stat isn't high enough, and they don't have high level pistols for it.
Same as tank.
IMO I really haven't heard a good arguement against there being a 3rd pa for spies. No other class has a third possible weapon skill with high level weapons made for THEM ONLY.
Maybe not so viable on the Pistol tank but a MC or HC PE is viable.
PEs are a jack of all trades and should be able to use all weapons just not as good as other classes or as high TL as other classes.
Pretty easy to get a PE using a PoT or an Electric Tempest so the fact that they can use rare Melee weapons makes me think it is viable, therefore, could be argued by PEs.
BTW I'm not saying they should get it, just using it as a possible argument from other classes that from KKs point of view they limited the PAs to 2 of each class....obvoiusly that hasn't gone over too well:p
Shadow Dancer
29-08-03, 18:56
Originally posted by Disturbed021
Maybe not so viable on the Pistol tank but a MC or HC PE is viable.
PEs are a jack of all trades and should be able to use all weapons just not as good as other classes or as high TL as other classes.
Pretty easy to get a PE using a PoT or an Electric Tempest so the fact that they can use rare Melee weapons makes me think it is viable, therefore, could be argued by PEs.
BTW I'm not saying they should get it, just using it as a possible argument from other classes that from KKs point of view they limited the PAs to 2 of each class....obvoiusly that hasn't gone over too well:p
I don't think melee pes are "realisticly" viable the way pistol and rifle pes are.
I always had thought of spies as having 3 possible combat routes.
Disturbed021
29-08-03, 19:06
Originally posted by Shadow Dancer
I don't think melee pes are "realisticly" viable the way pistol and rifle pes are.
I always had thought of spies as having 3 possible combat routes.
I'm not really disagreeing with you I was just trying to point out kks possible logic for only having 2 Spy PAs.
sence the spy pa is conciderd a "dex suit" i dont see how negitive endurance comes into play. and the soposive "update" to the aiming system (the bs we got in story) sounded like a weponlore + r-c/p-c bonus with nothing affected to int.
all i got to say is the new suits arnt really much better then the one in game now.
and if every pa is going to have a speed whip why doesnt psis?
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 19:10
new suits blow Rad armour away kthx...
as for END may not make sense but they ened to find SOME negative without compeltely fucking spies over.
If you use pistols KK hates you and you need to be punished. yeppyepp. KEEEEEEEL.
but killing endurance does fuck them over. ok fine i agree the prc and frc and the rifle combat bonus is nice but the negitives still screw over the class a bit (espicaly if theres int reqs). but hey. its only a "test" verson for the test server so lets hope the retail one gets revamped a bit.
Original monk
29-08-03, 19:19
im a bit retarted so explain sumthing to me: what did the GM told us about the riflecombat ?? -> is it that there will be NO riflecombat on the spy suits ? (cause of the fact they cant combine rifle- and pistolcombat togheter in 1 suit ?)
But instead it will be replaced by weaponlore if im right ?
-If im right? If that is; why is it called powerarmour then ? and not snipe-armour or acurancy armour or so ? its not that like any spy pistol or rifle needs any more weaponlore (unless its a constructor or so hé but they dont need spy-PA's) . A pistoler doesnt need any weaponlore cause they cap aiming with very low weaponlore, a combatspy allready invested alot in weaponlore and get majoramounts of weaponlore from he's imps, he also almost caps all aimings, but its the damage that ya almost cant cap cause youre riflepoints got gimped by the need of TC wich is needed to use the nice rifles (disruptor) and probably also the need of atleast stealth 3 (no combatspy using SilentHunter can go witouth). So yeah he needs alot of riflecombat because of the fact the capping of hi tl weapons (again disruptor) is veery hard, ya need agility thats less riflepoints, ya need TechCombat, thats less riflepoints.
I really dont get it: weaponlore has NO use for pistol- or riflespy's. So the only thing the suit would do is to hang on the wall as a decoration to look how good it looks (or to be stuffed away in a cabinet).
Please rechange the stats back to a primary skill we can use, like it was before, RifleCombat that is.
Then i still dont get why they are neglecting the pistolspy's, but thats sumthing the devs only know...
im a bit confused :confused:
SigmaDraconis
29-08-03, 19:23
@Rade go make a pistol whine thread kthxbye
@Jay...END is nothing...nothing..absolutly nothing..lol, and if at one point u decide to _try_ to argue with this....i will mention the 4 use stamina boosters that take up one of many belt slots that a spy really doesnt use.
DONT MIND IF I DO!
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