DoY / GC Info [Archive] - Official Neocron Forum

Thanatos

26-08-03, 16:19

Here's an official recap of some of the info released at the Games Convention (GC) in Germany. I won't go too much into most of the gameplay aspects yet though.

DoY Release Date

While the GC is a consumer fair, there's a business center that's closed to the public and very useful for developers to meet with publishers and the media.
Martin J. Schwiezer spent a lot of time in that area on Thursday and Friday talking to publishers. He told me that all publishers know Neocron and are generally interested in relaunching it in a bundle with DoY. There will probably be many negotiations in the future to find the best deal.

After a deal has been worked out, it will most likely take a month to finish and release DoY.
So there will be no release date before a contract with a publisher has been signed (which we will announce). Anything else would be pure speculation.

Northstar Developers / GC Booth

Northstar Developers is an association of german development studios based in the state of Niedersachsen. This association has been formed to share knowledge and resources, to have a stronger voice, promote german games etc. and has been inspired by the american G.O.D.
The state sponsored our booth at the GC but the design had to follow pretty strict specifications (yes, even those red cushions). The purpose of the booth was mainly B2B contact and publisher/press presentations for the other studios in this association. Some Neocron players complained that the booth was a restricted area, but they didn't even bother to ask for a Reakktor representative. Those who asked were invited in and could take a look at an offline version of DoY and ask questions.

General Info

We are still planning to release DoY as Neocron+DoY Bundle, free download and through a CD-burning service (for those without broadband internet). However, this and whether Neocron can still be played without DoY is depending on our deal with a publisher. We estimate that the size of the add-on will be at least 250 MegaByte, probably more.

While DoY has fewer sectors than Neocron City, they are larger and have several levels. The textures in DoY have a higher resolution than those in Neocron, if you should have barely playable FPS in Neocron, you will need a faster graphics card and faster RAM to get acceptable FPS in DoY (the city).
There are currently no plans to re-texturize Neocron and the Wastelands for DoY, neither are Mechs, Hacknet or Cybermall planned for DoY. We will consider working on these and/or future add-ons after DoY has been released.

enablerbr

26-08-03, 16:26

well many thanks for some offical word on the german event and DoY.

\\Fényx//

26-08-03, 16:26

*rubs eyes*

8|

whats this before me !

ITS A UPDATE !!!! 8|

thanks thanny :D good to hear

[Edit] actually thinking about it one thing that gets me is that you state that you will ''Consider'' working on Hacknet, Mechs and Cybermall?!? in the future once DoY hits us and a publisher sorted. I thought you'd already started on mech's no ? and for hacknet.... well ill be suprised about that, but what the hell was/is the cybermall O_o

Al3X

26-08-03, 16:26

thanks for letting us know whats going on :) the silence around doy was killing me :p

Xin

26-08-03, 16:29

W00t! Go KK! A month to brand DOY to the new publisher, test the changes and package it for release... While meanwhile the new publisher goes on a massive marketing campaign, flashing subliminal nc>swg messages on all the banner ads and TV commercials... well, one can hope.

FirestarXL

26-08-03, 16:31

At least people now know not to expect it from one week to another. I've always been pessimistic when it came to a release date, and appropriately so it seems!

Anyway, it's a pretty understandable situation, and thanks for the update!

RuButt

26-08-03, 16:34

GL with the deal and finding a good publisher!

Sleawer

26-08-03, 16:36

I just have two questions:

1- The current problem of FPS in Neocron is a specifical problem of customers computers, or is it related with the engine used in the game?

If if it's due our personal computers, could we get (or I get) some backup in what I need to play Neocron with good FPS? My problem is not the money, but the knowledge. At the moment I'm running the game with a decent grafic card (gforce4 titanium 64ddr windfast agp 8x of leadtek) and 512 ram in my comp, but still my fps are like shit. The processor is amd athlon 1500 xp.

I'm planning in improving the computer when this month ends, so what is suppossed to be good to play neocron at a decent frame rate. I dont want to walk around doy with 5 fps to be honest, that's one of the things that ruins my gameplay in the game. And I think it's important.

2- Would we get notices when you find a publisher?

Thanks for the info btw, and as RuButt said, good luck with those publishers and the DoY launch.

Possessed

26-08-03, 16:46

Originally posted by \\Fényx//

[Edit] , but what the hell was/is the cybermall O_o

Cybermail (if i remember correctly) is when people can email your ingame account from out of game, and, of course, you can email out of game email accounts from ingame. You will have an email account like <charecter name here>@neocron.com.

That's what I remember reading about cybermail.

[EDIT] woops, my bad, skimmer, though i do remember reading something like this like 2 years or so ago on some NC fansite so i'm not completely nuts.

ex-machina

26-08-03, 16:48

sex

Al3X

26-08-03, 16:52

cyberMALL.. not MAIL ;) i think it was a big collection of stores somewhere in oz....

Original monk

26-08-03, 16:54

THANX a 1000 times you saved my life !!!!!!! :P

Joghurtbecher

26-08-03, 16:56

Here are some pix, I made on the GC :)

At first some normal DoY pics:

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/doy1.jpg

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/doy2.jpg

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/doy3red.jpg

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/doy4.jpg

And the Crahn Cathedral of DoY:

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/cchurch1.jpg

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/cchurch2wind.jpg

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/cchurch3.jpg

http://home.t-online.de/home/felixruetzel/Ebay/cchurch4.jpg

greetz Joghurtbecher

Mighty Max

26-08-03, 16:56

Thx to the whole staff.

For bearing a annoying question asking Fanboi .... :p

Elric

26-08-03, 17:12

HOLY SHIT!!

That's ingame shots of the cathedral???

That is gonna run like SHITE on every players computer.... Looks fantastic but honestly, the way the rest of the game runs at the moment its gonna kill yer fps to unplayable levels.

I aint exactly on runnin NC on a ZX Spectrum either.

GF4 Ti4200 128mb 8x AGP
Gigabyte G7-VAXP Motherboard
512Mb 2700DDR
2100 Athlon XP
and other stuff that isnt relevant really...

I still only get about 10 - 20 FPS in Plaza1 or at OP fights, unless i drop detail to almost zero but then it looks like shit and the fog distance lets me see all of 2 feet in front of me.

Imagine what DOY is gonna do with the fancy gfx.... Kinda defeats the point of making DoY look nice dont it.

:edit: I guess it is nice to actually get an update for a change tho, Nice one Thanatos

Spy<VS>Spy

26-08-03, 17:22

I can only deliver to you one phrase of advice thantos, and thats to tell your boys to get cracking. and i do mean cracking.

With DOY now HEAVILY delayed, hey we arnt stupid it can take up to 4 months to close a deal like this. if DoY isnt finished, then it should be finished in the next month. once thats out of the way its time you bite the bullet and start focusing on neocron...we dont give a fuck about your dumbass add on, i'd be lieing to you if i didnt say i was highly dissapointed...if not down right discusted with this news.

I'm pretty sure i could speak for the large chunk of the community that they share the same dissapointment. with this officail news that the add on is on the back burner there is now little to no excuse for the state of this game, we have major issues that need to be addressed, and since we know that 'waiting for Doy' address it would simply be stupid its time we tackle them. the test server is here and your player base....whats left of it...is more then willing to help.

you have...much time on your hands my son, there is no excuse not to have hacknet, mechs or whatever device of your chosing...why am i still PAYING for neocron??? i dont know about you but i'm paying for this game because the basic princible is i pay a company to give me an enjoyable online expserince in a game they provide support, service and continual content. I'm not paying for the chief princible so you can put money into other projects and blow this one off, i'll take my buesniess else where. maybe if you where the first online game i was involved in i would unwittingly stay, but this isnt, i know how this works for the consumer.

and i am sickened...pawning out these screen shots like anyone gives a fuck, i'd personal tell martin where he can shove that carrot which is 'DoY' somewhere unpleasent.

we need a new plan file, and we need it now. the song 'what about me' is brought to mind...well, what about neocron, what about US?? you just put a bullet in your foot for your exspension and said, "damn if we know." to the community.

so now we deserve to know, what are YOU going to bring to the table, we have been more then patient, excepting that you are working hard on DoY for us, but now that you cant deliver it...what ARE you going to deliver us? well, its going to have to be something.

Joghurtbecher

26-08-03, 17:23

Originally posted by Elric
HOLY SHIT!!

That's ingame shots of the cathedral???

That is gonna run like SHITE on every players computer.... Looks fantastic but honestly, the way the rest of the game runs at the moment its gonna kill yer fps to unplayable levels.

...[snip]...

Yes these are ingameshots taken with a digicam. The game ran on a powerbook gfx card as good as onn my 900mhz athlon with GF 4MX, so i suppose, the bether grafic will not be a big problem.

greetz Joghurtbecher

Sleawer

26-08-03, 17:23

Same here Elric, and with some chars like my monk or my PE I dont mind having fog on (60-70 fps), but with my rifle spy I cant afford losing my only advantage, the range.

I find great that KK wants to improve the grafics so much, it's the part more enjoyable of a game, but it can be ruined totally by a bad fps gameplay.

I dont know if it's just that I need better components in the computer (and what of them?), if the game engine is not prepared for so fantastic resolution (Neocron is one of the best games in this) or it's just my config, but it sometimes ruin my fun completely.

Btw, I wonder if as Crahn we will have our appts in that Cathedral; that would be great.

Drake6k

26-08-03, 17:29

ty for update

garyu69

26-08-03, 17:32

Originally posted by Joghurtbecher
Here are some pix, I made on the GC :)

At first some normal DoY pics:

And the Crahn Cathedral of DoY:
OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

*Wipes Sticky Stuff from inside Pants*

OMG OMG OMG OMG OMG

\\Fényx//

26-08-03, 17:36

Originally posted by Elric
That is gonna run like SHITE on every players computer.... Looks fantastic but honestly, the way the rest of the game runs at the moment its gonna kill yer fps to unplayable levels.

I wont go there Elrik :D If my PC's getting around 70 at OP fights now when all hell's breaking loose then i recon i cuold still hit a steady 100 at DOY. Getting around 100-110 at P1 now, 140ish when in my apt, get like 180 lastnight while looking at the sky :lol:

Anyway, yea, ill probably spank out a good 60+ there :p I'd bloody hope so with 2gb of RAM, a XP3000 and a 256 meg gfx card ffs! 8|

Lord Mansion

26-08-03, 17:45

Originally posted by Sleawer
I just have two questions:

1- The current problem of FPS in Neocron is a specifical problem of customers computers, or is it related with the engine used in the game?

I have played another online game recently with many more users and better looking graphics and it all ran smoothly. I only have performance problems with Neocron.

An update or replacement of the engine is really REQUIRED if the server population increases upon launch of the DoY/Neocron bundle.

FBI

26-08-03, 17:47

I hope with DoY there will be a major engine tune-up job because
something in neocron doesn't like superfast computers or slow
alike. I get equal framerates on my crap system as the next guy
who has the new super duper system.

Perhaps some algorithms need to be relooked at or tweaked?

Or perhaps KK made framerates like they are by design so everyone
has an equal experience?

Because the game runs also on my duel monitor which is on a
ATI RagePro 4mb video card at the same fps as my geforce4.

I tell you all what though, i'm not going out and dishing $300 for
a decent video card for a 5fps increase. :rolleyes:

edit: here's a thread with info on the engine if your interested:
http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=63707&perpage=15&highlight=engine%20genesis&pagenumber=1

Sleawer

26-08-03, 17:50

Maybe it is related to the processor speed instead the grafic card. When vehicles ran in relation to the driver computer, I heard from many people that it was not based in the fps, but in the Mghz of your processor.

Vampire222

26-08-03, 17:55

uh spy, stfu, their doing their best, kk is small not as big as the team for sw:g or PlanetShite, and still they manage to get a lot of things done, seeing doy will shift the general battlestyle to top vs bottom on the map, it should make interesting new op battles, i agree there gotta be a new plan file, and lots more info to the public about progress, and how about:

- a new patch
- Spy armor (they shoulda had this a LONG time ago)
- framerate fixing, engine tuning
- Mc5 to old state wit glass to make mc5 chips less idioticly rare, and make em repair to 120/120, who can i trust to repair my ds once it breaks?
-FIX THE CAST BUG WHERE BUFFS DONT STICK <= Really Really Annoying, needs a fast fix!

so lots of stuff to be done thats more important than doy on the short term

Ps. nixon fix my sig :P

\\Fényx//

26-08-03, 17:57

Originally posted by Sleawer
Maybe it is related to the processor speed instead the grafic card. When vehicles ran in relation to the driver computer, I heard from many people that it was not based in the fps, but in the Mghz of your processor.

Mine's only a 2.1 ghz Athlon on 166fsb tho, I know people on a 3gig 400FSB P4 lol that dont come near to my FPS For some reason, im not sure why, but I seem to just get sweet results from NC, I took Pitspawn thru setting up his PC like mine and he ended gettign extremely fucked graphics on my settings O_o oh well... who knows.... i mean this IS KK afterall :D :p

Elric

26-08-03, 18:14

Originally posted by \\Fényx//
I wont go there Elrik :D If my PC's getting around 70 at OP fights now when all hell's breaking loose then i recon i cuold still hit a steady 100 at DOY. Getting around 100-110 at P1 now, 140ish when in my apt, get like 180 lastnight while looking at the sky :lol:

Anyway, yea, ill probably spank out a good 60+ there :p I'd bloody hope so with 2gb of RAM, a XP3000 and a 256 meg gfx card ffs! 8|

Theres always an exeption... bitch.... :p

I can get a nice constant 40 - 68 when idling in a quiet NC zone like ViaRosso2 or out in the wastes (Vehicle speed WAS related to FPS, not processor speeds) Its only when things get busy that it starts hitting rock bottom, basically OP wars and Plaza1.
Unfortunately the standard gaming audience doesnt have or cant afford kit like yours m8. I wish to god I could tho.

\\Fényx//

26-08-03, 18:20

Originally posted by Elric
Theres always an exeption... bitch.... :p

I can get a nice constant 40 - 68 when idling in a quiet NC zone like ViaRosso2 or out in the wastes (Vehicle speed WAS related to FPS, not processor speeds) Its only when things get busy that it starts hitting rock bottom, basically OP wars and Plaza1.
Unfortunately the standard gaming audience doesnt have or cant afford kit like yours m8. I wish to god I could tho.

you mean not everyone has 2gb of DDR 2700 ? :confused: how can you people live like that ! :p:lol:

enablerbr

26-08-03, 18:26

try playing on a gforce4mx 64ddr, 320 (100) sdr, 400 celeron. then talk about sh!te fps.:p

Elric

26-08-03, 18:27

Before i built my new computer, I was playing NC on a GF2MX 32Mb PCI card... I know full well the perils and plagues of shit FPS.

Dru Blood

26-08-03, 18:42

heh sweet, some official annoucement on DoY now thats what we want, keep us informed we are the people that make the game.......

as for the fps on neocron., well i was using an amd athlon xp 1700+ for a good while, and ive now upgraded to a p4 800fsb 2.4ghz 512ram dual ddr., and i get less fps than i did on me shit computer huh, 8| wtf is up there man?

Malek

26-08-03, 18:47

Just out of curiosity, this is still a planned free update right? (Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while)

Elric

26-08-03, 18:47

Originally posted by Malek
Just out of curiosity, this is still a planned free update right? (Sorry I've been out of the loop for a while)

yeah

msdong

26-08-03, 19:03

Originally posted by Elric
yeah

well,

if u read carefully then this is not THAT shure anymore.

We are still planning to release DoY as Neocron+DoY Bundle, free download and through a CD-burning service (for those without broadband internet). However, this and whether Neocron can still be played without DoY is depending on our deal with a publisher.

it all depend on the publisher.

DigestiveBiscui

26-08-03, 19:04

250mb + for the update

goodbyyyyye 56k users of neocron

as for fps - 10 in plaza 1, between 5-20 in op fight. The rest hangs from 20-40

if DOY brings LESS FPS then thats just bollocks.....surely the bad fps in neocron should be a problem to look at, not to think 'fuckit, we can afford another fps decrese for DOY' - lets make it pretty, but not let many people look at it due to fps 1

Eckel

26-08-03, 19:09

When DOY does come i think KK should send out emails to all the canceled ppl and also to the ppl who are still playing ........3-4 weeks free play........get ppl playing again...........

Also why not release some changes before DOY.......

Dru Blood

26-08-03, 19:29

Originally posted by Eckel
When DOY does come i think KK should send out emails to all the canceled ppl and also to the ppl who are still playing ........3-4 weeks free play........get ppl playing again...........

Also why not release some changes before DOY.......

ahh jim, i agree

i think the power armors for the private eyes and spies are well overdue, maybe some extra apu spells and more events.

funkeymonkey

26-08-03, 19:52

Im glad that we have finally been told whats going on.

Since we have a few months to wait i think ill be cancelling my account and reactivate it when doys out, saves me a few quid and makes me hungrier to play when its out.

CryptoChronic

26-08-03, 22:10

omg look at that cathedral!!!!!!! *cums*

Omnituens

26-08-03, 22:33

im on a 1.4 GHz Duron, GF4 MX440, 225MB SDRAM.

send me cash to upgrade my system! :D

Brew

26-08-03, 22:36

Yes it looks all pretty but have the Radeon problems been fixed yet?

Planetside runs damn near flawlessly on my computer with 150-200 people fighting in the same area, but Neocron still chokes, textures randomly appear and disappear, lighting flickers on and off depending if I'm in the "lean left" or "lean right" part of walking forward... and that's by myself just travelling. Anything behind me makes the screen black. STILL. Didn't ATI give you guys a bunch of cards to look at the problem?

Yeah and some of the outposts still lag to the point of unplayability once fighting breaks out. With maybe 20 people.

Athlon 1800+
712MB DDR
Radeon 9000 Pro (w/ 128MB DDR) with latest drivers.
DirectX 9 (honestly, a lot of the texture problems started with this install.. there weren't as many with DX8)
Cable Modem (generally get 150-200KB download speed)

Arcadius

26-08-03, 22:48

Originally posted by CryptoChronic
omg look at that cathedral!!!!!!! *cums*

lol I had the same reaction.

zonk

26-08-03, 22:55

Thx for update.

Still doubting to deactivate mah account till DoY is there....

SeXeD HeXeD

26-08-03, 23:05

lol people will try and organise fights in the cathedral but they'll all just end up exploring the place... looks sexeh.. but will get like -34 FPS o_O

Spy<VS>Spy does have a point, alot of the problems in NC need to be fixed and fixed now, not after DoY. DoY has been the excuse for a while now but now we more or less know your progress it means that you can at least fix some of the bugs in NC... I know KK don't have a big team, but it's their job after all 8|

oh and vamp... MC5 isn't hard if you have the right tactics... and maybe get a mate to repair your DS ?

mdares

26-08-03, 23:18

i run on a p4 2.2 ghz, 512 ram, 64 mb vid; i get good fps most times; only shitty fps in mountain zones with lotsa trees and lotsa people moving at the same time (i.e. op fights). P1 is always good for me no matter how many people; as long as i run through p1 once and "load" all the people, it goes smooth; 10-15 at the lowest. (and i have details all turned up high, no fog, etc.)

so DoY might be slower if its overpopulated but i doubt it'll get worse...

still gracias and merci for the update! =p

Nullifidian

26-08-03, 23:23

Originally posted by Brew
Yes it looks all pretty but have the Radeon problems been fixed yet?

Planetside runs damn near flawlessly on my computer with 150-200 people fighting in the same area,

Certainly not recently. Planetside introduced a patch which "optimized" the framrate. What it actually did was lower everyone's framerate at all times. People with absolute top of the line systems are reporting around 10fps with medium detail and NO people around. Oddly enough people with lower systems are reporting the same thing.

Something was borked, that's for sure, but we don't know what.

In any case, long story short, Planetside does NOT operate at even halfway decent framerates now.

d3ik

27-08-03, 00:01

A lot of the lag that I was experiencing was fixed with a simple configuration change. There is a thread about this somewhere but I can't find it now... basically in the /ini/net.ini you can change two values, which are pretty much a bandwidth cap. I know this is vague, but bear with me:

The first value in the file should be something like 2000, set this to 5000. From what I've read this number caps your pipe's size. The second value is a little farther down, about 3/4, it is the only value set to 2.0 . Apparently this value is the object refresh rate, change it to 1.0

I know this only deals with your connection (and is only recommended for broadband users) and doesn't improve the engine at all, but it did solve a lot of issues that I was having with low framerates and FRE's (which GM's have said have to do with lag)

Cruzbroker

27-08-03, 00:49

I do think that LAG/latency/ping (what ever u want to call it) has a big thing to do with ur FPS...

I love the graphics of Neocron, but the FPS sucks...

Sleawer

27-08-03, 01:21

In the same thread you mention, I think was Odin, said the client side in that matter was disabled, so you can change that as much as you can.

Anyhow my problems are not related to ping, but to FPS, which if I am correct, are completely different things.

Glyc

27-08-03, 01:29

\/\/007 --- lovin' it lovin' it. can't wait.

hi-five's MJS

Cruzbroker

27-08-03, 02:10

eg. I played HalfLife (CS etc. mods) with ISDN, when I got ADSL the FPS raised, wonder why? .. that's what I meant, ur sending more data when there's more players which causes fps slow down?

VVerevvolf

27-08-03, 02:43

Spy, stfu or quit, either way you would be doing us a big favour.

VictorKruger

27-08-03, 03:16

Thanks for the update.
And spy i know that you are trying to prove a point. but fliping out on them is not going to make them work faster.

Originally posted by d3ik
A lot of the lag that I was experiencing was fixed with a simple configuration change. There is a thread about this somewhere but I can't find it now... basically in the /ini/net.ini you can change two values, which are pretty much a bandwidth cap. I know this is vague, but bear with me:

The first value in the file should be something like 2000, set this to 5000. From what I've read this number caps your pipe's size. The second value is a little farther down, about 3/4, it is the only value set to 2.0 . Apparently this value is the object refresh rate, change it to 1.0

I know this only deals with your connection (and is only recommended for broadband users) and doesn't improve the engine at all, but it did solve a lot of issues that I was having with low framerates and FRE's (which GM's have said have to do with lag)

i think i know what fields you are talking about, i was looking in the net.ini file and i found these 2 fields that i think you were trying to describe.

//maximum bandwidth for each client
set net_maxclientbw 2000

//maximum time between player full updates(in secs)
set net_playerupdtime 2.0

ZoneVortex

27-08-03, 03:30

Well DoY might be a free download, but it'd cost me about a 400$ upgrade on my computer.....

So after all this I doubt i'll be seeing it in action *sigh*

Brew

27-08-03, 04:45

Planetside works fine for me.
And as you see, my computer is hardly "top of the line" by today's standards. Upper middle class maybe.

Regardless, its not lag I'm peeved about, its graphics errors.
Did anyone here see my good-bye-for-now post a few months ago?
I have some good screencaps in there of some of the things I'm talking about.

FBI

27-08-03, 05:06

Originally posted by \\Fényx//
Mine's only a 2.1 ghz Athlon on 166fsb tho, I know people on a 3gig 400FSB P4 lol that dont come near to my FPS For some reason, im not sure why, but I seem to just get sweet results from NC, I took Pitspawn thru setting up his PC like mine and he ended gettign extremely fucked graphics on my settings O_o oh well... who knows.... i mean this IS KK afterall :D :p

I'd like to see screenshots of this so called godly framerate.

If the resolution is 640x480x16 and all your settings are turned
low, that doesn't count.

Anyway, talk is cheap. Take screenshots, post them here. I'd like
to see a 100fps in plaza1 with more than 10 people, no photoshopping ;)

<- awaits

ServeX

27-08-03, 05:25

Originally posted by FBI
I'd like to see screenshots of this so called godly framerate.

If the resolution is 640x480x16 and all your settings are turned
low, that doesn't count.

Anyway, talk is cheap. Take screenshots, post them here. I'd like
to see a 100fps in plaza1 with more than 10 people, no photoshopping ;)

<- awaits

respect.

Varaem

27-08-03, 05:28

no one knows my pain in fps... I get 10 fps staring at a wall in plaza 1... i get from 0 to 5 fps in the wastelands, closer to 0 in op fights, unless i turn forced fog and object blend down to the minimum. 800mhz p3m, 256 mb ram, intel extreme graphics (yes, its onboard)... laptop... :(

DoY is gonna fry my computer.

G.0.D.

27-08-03, 06:10

just gatta get that new one var :P

btw every one in my clan was saying how famous I was :rolleyes: please dont point out G.O.D. (with a O) is "Gathering of developers"

ZoneVortex

27-08-03, 07:21

Originally posted by Varaem
no one knows my pain in fps... I get 10 fps staring at a wall in plaza 1... i get from 0 to 5 fps in the wastelands, closer to 0 in op fights, unless i turn forced fog and object blend down to the minimum. 800mhz p3m, 256 mb ram, intel extreme graphics (yes, its onboard)... laptop... :(

DoY is gonna fry my computer.

Oh no. Trust me. I feel your pain.

Spy<VS>Spy

27-08-03, 08:07

i'm not flipping out, i'm facing facts, you know those cold hard ugly things that fanboy's dont ever talk about.

Fact: DoY cant come out untill it finds a publisher, once that is said and done it will take 'typically' one month after that to be released. lets all be reminded we are riding on an 'if' here.

Fact: majoy bugs still exist on neocron, major implimentations are on hold because of DoY which means we wont see them.

Fact: with no concreate date we will float again like we did before in limbo when granite left. becuase the story guys now dont know what to do.

Fact: you people care more about your how your machine will run then the truely important broke parts of this game, that still get ignored because of all this DoY crap which as mentioned above...is DoA.

KK wants to make money, its that simple, if CDV payed out for em, we would already be in a rushed DoY like they had planned, but it didnt...so they had to find someone else, a task they kept most of the community in the dark for while they threw out a screen shot or something.

you can call me a whining bitch, but in reality, i only care about the here and now. it discusts me that that the only excuse why it isnt fixed is no deep sixed and people still dont care...poor kk, dont worry, when it gets here it gets here, we'll keep paying you money untill you find a publisher to resell this game.

if i see otherwise, well...fine, i'm a goon alright. but right now, i see allot of useless NPC's that do nothing, and a bunch of posts worrying about texture sizes. like hey guys, i'm lagging now, will i lag worse with DoY, and will it actually make a difference because i already suck?

can we be honost with outselves? we need a new plan file, and we need to make it happen before DoY...lets not sit back and waist time, cause they will if the community lets em.

I'm on a quest for quality, if even the little things where thought out a bit more ahead of time, then we would not have to worry about the big ones.

Arcadius

27-08-03, 08:29

I feel you spy. The "one month AFTER publisher" thing makes me feel like DOY won't come out for a few months. bleh :(

Elric

27-08-03, 10:21

its gonna be more than a "few" months i reckon.

I've seen Screens of Fenyx's, he does run at those framerates. I think he's on about 1280x1024 or at least 1024x768.
Just caught up on what i missed.

Personally i see the shitty FPS as another bug. It makes the game unplayable at times, so to me, thats a big issue.

Dont get me wrong from my previous posts, the screens look great and looks like theyve spent alot of time to get them looking that way, so Kudos to the mapping and designers folks, they look excellent. The problem is that neocron runs like a pig for the majority for the community and increasing textures and effects and so on isnt going to help.
Bigger zones? the Z-Buffer thing dont work properly as it is, so bigger zones is going to hurt FPS even more. The engine, so far as i can tell from playing and have assumed from others posts, draws EVERYTHING in a zone even if you cant see it (past the fog layer, behind a hill, whatever) This is what the Z-buffer is suppposed to do afaik, disable the drawing of objects that cant or shouldnt be seen to improve performance.
A prime example is standing at the edge of a zone with an OP in it. Look at the zone border and yer FPS will rise (also works if looking directly at the ground in the middle of a zone), look towards the middle and where the OP is, and it hits rock bottom, particulalry obvious in the Cycrow and Syncom (the one with the ladders into the OP that everyone loves to fight over) lab zones.
Another way of testing for those who havent left the confines of NC. Strand in front of Medicare plaza 1. Look towards PLaza2 entrance. FPS will be, ok ish, for me say about 30. Now look towards Crytons and where CA HQ is (you cant see it obviously, its behind the walls n stuff) and your FPS will drop by 30 - 50%, for me it drops to about 10 - 15fps.
To me the whole Performance aspect of NC is a big big issue, far more important to resolve than releasing an add on, unless of course DoY includes a fix for this in which case, fuckin hurry up!!

I agree with Spy in so many issues (apart from the performance bit apparently :p) Major things need fixed and balanced, (but knowing that balancing IS being seriously looked at and in most cases resolved, ie the pistols fix, by Lupus is a good sign). Major implementations and fixes are being held off for DoY and people in the meantime are getting bored and quitting (i.e. me for one). I doubt the fixes for the prevalant bugs or exploits will be held off as long as DoY but it feels that way, which is what counts.

I LOVED neocron from the minute I installed it in Beta4 and have played since then (with a break of about 7 - 10 weeks total). theyve made changes which have been good and bad. I stuck with it through it all, even what i seen as bad changes (reducing Spy STR stat [yes, it used to be 50 and you could easily wear decent armour], specialisation and the addition of the MC5 Evercamp clone being the three major ones I hated) But the boredom of having done everything and the endless wait on something new (eg, DoY, New Vehicles... whatever) finally got to me.

I still pay my account in the vain hope that sometime soon I will just jump back in when something interesting happens, but that wont last either. KK are probably gonna get another 12 - 18 quid off me, (3 months) but thats gonna be it if nothing has changed.

Patiently waiting on FoM beta.....

Elric.

Mirco

27-08-03, 10:31

I`m on the same boat as Spy on this one.

We are in "talks and negotiations" and then a month after that?

SeXeD HeXeD

27-08-03, 10:40

KK... just have to keep your customers happy :)

Richard Adregen

27-08-03, 12:05

Personally I quite agree with spy and the others. The FPS thing HAS to be looked at and it should be top priority. Sorry to say it but I'm NOT going to spend a whole lot of money just because one game doesn't work properly. Every game I've played so far has functioned quite well, even though I use a GF2 MX 32 MB. That I'm willing to upgrade, but I'm already on a PIV 1.4 Ghz with 384 MB RAM, I'm not going to upgrade that 'til it's REALLY necessary...

And don't "consider" (o_O) Hacknet or mechs please... People have been waiting for it for ages!

RA.

Thane

27-08-03, 12:31

neither are Mechs, Hacknet or Cybermall planned for DoY.

soooo... wtf did this info ages ago came from that you guys work on it.... ? must have been bruce again! omg! hax!

Traxus

27-08-03, 14:50

Originally posted by Elric
This is what the Z-buffer is suppposed to do afaik, disable the drawing of objects that cant or shouldnt be seen to improve performance.

The Z-buffer is used to correctly draw polygones at different distances. Drawing is faster with disabled Z-buffer than enabled, but looks awfully bad with tons of graphical artefacts.

You mean probably various polygon culling methods. Seems to me that all the Neocron engine does is not to draw polygons too far away. But only one of the KK developers can really answer that.

Progenitor

27-08-03, 15:09

I would have to agree with SPy and the others.

The FPS issue needs to be resolved, along with the random syncing hang for no apparent reason.

There is still some balance and tweaking issues amongst the classes that need to be focused on.

The available items need to be tweaked and adjusted as well for balance and viability - as it is, certain items just aren't ever used because they aren't worth it.

There is a lot of empty space being wasted in NC city proper that could be better utilized to supply story elements and RP oppertunities. Is Via Rossa even really needed? Just move the HQs in there to Plaza locations - there is nothing that VR supplies that adds to the game really. The same could be said of the OZ and IZ as well. The various non-OP locations in the wastes could be used better as well, to provide more content.

There are places like OZ7 and Regants Legacy that need to be finished up or just removed.

The clan missions/wars, etc., etc.

----

If hacknet might never coming out now, then the Uplink OPs need to be reworked, so that they have some purpose and useful bonus in the game.

----

Figuring that it will take at least 4 weeks to close the deal with any publisher, then another 4 weeks to get DoY out, we are realistically looking somewhere around Nov 2003. Having an addon to the game a year after first retail isn't all that bad. Except that it was suppose to be part of the orginal release but pushed back due to time constraints and for the fact that it has supposedly been done now for some time and just waiting around

I am a little disapointed that they won't update the existing graphics across the gameworld to highres versions. I understand DOY is an addon, and as such seperate, but they should update all the graphics to the highres versions - I really don't want one part of the game looking great and the rest of it looking the old way. If DOY has been finished and just waiting for a publisher, those designers could have been spending this time updating those graphics and models. Personally I'd love to see an option to run ih highres verses lowres.

I am also disapointed that I have to wait that much longer to get the epics for the non CA friendly factions - it is kind of rediculous that they haven't released all of the epics, especaily since they are on the test server and seem to be ready for prime time.

-p

El_MUERkO

27-08-03, 15:38

Arse!!

I signed up for 3 more months 2 days ago :(

I could of sold my account spent the money I'd saved + the money I got from my account a a few good nights out then signed up again in six months when doy eventually comes out.

I'm really disappointed, you hinted at and alluded to a release some time soon 3 months ago and now it looks like we might not see DoY for months.

You've strung us out like Net Devil and all those wankers over at Jumpgate.

[]edited the last line, no point in being rude it gives them an excuse to ignore the rest of my post[]

Q`alooaith

27-08-03, 15:38

Originally posted by Traxus
The Z-buffer is used to correctly draw polygones at different distances. Drawing is faster with disabled Z-buffer than enabled, but looks awfully bad with tons of graphical artefacts.

You mean probably various polygon culling methods. Seems to me that all the Neocron engine does is not to draw polygons too far away. But only one of the KK developers can really answer that.

Radeon has some problems with this, or some games with the way radeon cards do this..

Go play a game called Hegemonia, with a radeon and lastest drivers, you'll see objects drawn in from of things they are meant to be behind, so the very back is the very front and so on, very very bad..

Wish somone would stick their hand up and say, "this is our fault"...

Anyway, just saying problems all over..

They should get some more shit out to us while DoY is waiting, maybe add some more wastland caves or tunnels, somthing maze like to get lost in with lots of high level stuff and some lower level stuff as well...

Mingerroo

27-08-03, 15:42

Yeah I have to agree with a lot of what people are saying. The graphics in this game are nowhere near modern, but I don't care. What I do care about is that the engine gives shitty FPS for graphics that my system (with any other game) should have absolutely no problem with.

Its not like its trying to map out everyone's shadow, every objects shadow, ragdoll physics and extremely high-res textures (like Unreal 2) yet I get as mcuh, if not more, graphical lag :(

The really big problem is, they can't just rewrite the engine now... The game is out and you can't change the engine a year into release. o_O I don't know what they can do to fix this, but sync errors are nothing in comparison to the poor FPS in all the important places.

Q`alooaith

27-08-03, 15:54

Unreal 2 is realy a good example, since it's an old engine with some new doodaa's slapped on afterwards.. And it does good.

Then you have neocron, I'm not sure why it's so draining on systems, might be wasted pollys, or somthing..

Traxus

27-08-03, 17:02

Originally posted by Q`alooaith
Radeon has some problems with this, or some games with the way radeon cards do this..

I am surrounded only by nVidia graphic chips for the last years, both in my office and home, so I never saw the problems you described.

Considering an Z-buffer is though usualy quite a simple mechanism I somewhat doubt anyone could get it wrong with the Radeons.

Been a bit out of shape, been 2 generations of gfx chips ago when I was involved last time in the development of a rendering engine.

T72

27-08-03, 18:22

DoY has been a joke for months now, i mean how many times has the release date been moved/delayed.

We the paying Customers have waited for bugs in this game to get fixed for MONTHS almost as long as DoY as been coming out, What happend to "Once we get Story guy in place Nc story line will kickoff and will culminate in DoY"

For months we have heard DoY is finished.... ooh we are adding more underpowered Vhc's and flying things... ooh we need a new story guy...... ooh we need a new publisher...... what next ooh we need a higher player base?

CLAN MISSIONS, CLAN WARS, BOP, whole zones with NO MOBS but cockroaches, FFS come on get off yer ass leave DoY improve Nc

DISSAPOINTED Runner.

Q`alooaith

27-08-03, 18:43

Originally posted by Traxus
I am surrounded only by nVidia graphic chips for the last years, both in my office and home, so I never saw the problems you described.

Considering an Z-buffer is though usualy quite a simple mechanism I somewhat doubt anyone could get it wrong with the Radeons.

Been a bit out of shape, been 2 generations of gfx chips ago when I was involved last time in the development of a rendering engine.

Radeon trys to do some clever bits with the Z to make redering faster, such as loading at the same time as clearing (don't ask how, thats what they said) or somthing anyway, it seams to flip the orders somtimes so it might be a simple conflict there.

Eumaius

27-08-03, 19:26

I think the DoY expansion should be required. If not then we might have even LOWER populations than we do now and then game would be no fun. 250 megs is not that bad and can easily be completed overnight or over a few nights with a download program.

Progenitor

27-08-03, 19:30

Originally posted by Eumaius
I think the DoY expansion should be required. If not then we might have even LOWER populations than we do now and then game would be no fun. 250 megs is not that bad and can easily be completed overnight or over a few nights with a download program.

That does bring something up - if it is going to be that large, PLEASE give us the option of downloading it in chunks. Even if it is 5 50meg chunks, 25 10meg chunks or 50 5meg chunks or some other logical breakout.

Nothing is worse than having a large download fail someplace and have to restart over again.

A not from fileplanet!

-p

Mr Friendly

27-08-03, 20:05

Originally posted by Elric
HOLY SHIT!!

That's ingame shots of the cathedral???

That is gonna run like SHITE on every players computer.... Looks fantastic but honestly, the way the rest of the game runs at the moment its gonna kill yer fps to unplayable levels.

I aint exactly on runnin NC on a ZX Spectrum either.

GF4 Ti4200 128mb 8x AGP
Gigabyte G7-VAXP Motherboard
512Mb 2700DDR
2100 Athlon XP
and other stuff that isnt relevant really...

I still only get about 10 - 20 FPS in Plaza1 or at OP fights, unless i drop detail to almost zero but then it looks like shit and the fog distance lets me see all of 2 feet in front of me.

Imagine what DOY is gonna do with the fancy gfx.... Kinda defeats the point of making DoY look nice dont it.

:edit: I guess it is nice to actually get an update for a change tho, Nice one Thanatos

i got slightly lower gpx card & cpu speed than u, & i get 17 to 30 FPS in plaza 1 runnin through :P

check my "want less lag?" thread on my sig

DigestiveBiscui

27-08-03, 21:47

GF4 MX440
Athlon 1800
512RAM
enough HD space to fit a monkey in
windows XP +SP1

plaza 1 = 10-20fps

op fight = 20-5 fps

other places around 30

retarded - i think so, and if you read the box it says 'minimum 8mb gfx card' - LOL yea, if you want to stand still at a lovely 0.000001 fps with res down to 640x480 with gfx on nothing

Nullifidian

27-08-03, 21:50

Originally posted by DigestiveBiscui
GF4 MX440

There's your problem.

GeForce4 MX performs typically much slower than even a standard Geforce 2 GTS.

Jesterthegreat

27-08-03, 21:55

GeFroce 3 Ti
AMD (not sure which, goin shoppin tomorrow -- will be 2gig+)
gigabite mobo (again goin shoppin tomoz)
mem (shoppin -- 512 min, possibly 1034)

i get fuck all fps...

(oh broardband too)

NC Junkie

DigestiveBiscui

27-08-03, 22:00

Originally posted by Nullifidian
There's your problem.

GeForce4 MX performs typically much slower than even a standard Geforce 2 GTS.

now you say that, but sit down with a GF2 and play ut2003, and then with a GF4 MX400, and try and tell me that the 2 performs better...because it dont :)

Mingerroo

27-08-03, 22:08

As a friend of mine says "STAY AWAY FROM MX!". U have a geforce 2 MX and it is shit. Just dont get MX, I guess it means lets make our card CHEAPER! and shit :lol:

FirestarXL

27-08-03, 22:16

Originally posted by Progenitor
That does bring something up - if it is going to be that large, PLEASE give us the option of downloading it in chunks. Even if it is 5 50meg chunks, 25 10meg chunks or 50 5meg chunks or some other logical breakout.

Nothing is worse than having a large download fail someplace and have to restart over again.

A not from fileplanet!

-p

Chunks are so outdated man, there's a multitude of download programs for all platforms which will allow you to resume form the nearest few kb rather than being limited to what ever the chunk size is. Plus most will allow you to multi thread the download so it goes much faster, even over a modem. Just post if you need any advice on what prog to use.

Agree about the fileplanet bit though!

Nullifidian

27-08-03, 22:32

Originally posted by DigestiveBiscui
now you say that, but sit down with a GF2 and play ut2003, and then with a GF4 MX400, and try and tell me that the 2 performs better...because it dont :)

Actually I get 2 times the framerate with a GeForce2 GTS in UT2K3 than with a GeForce4 MX

Brew

27-08-03, 22:34

Ok, here you go

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56479

the FPS at outposts is bad at times, yes.
But the graphics glitches are much worse.

Again, my setup

Athlon 1800+
Radeon 9000 Pro (128 MB)
712 MB DDR
SB Audigy 2 Platinum
Win2k Pro
Latest drivers and DX9

Nasher

27-08-03, 22:56

The problem is that the NC engine doesnt seem to support all the new directx features etc, it doesnt really use the hardware to its fullest like most new engines do.

IronMonkey

28-08-03, 00:18

Originally posted by Nasher
The problem is that the NC engine doesnt seem to support all the new directx features etc, it doesnt really use the hardware to its fullest like most new engines do.

exactly thats why removing some of the limitations to the nc engine that they are doing with doy could have the chance of increasing performance around the board.

i already posted in a previous thread about this a very detailed one xplaining why there is high chances that doy will make all old nc areas run much smoother than current nc does. To lazy to find it and to tired to type it all up again.

tron123

28-08-03, 00:49

Wish we could get some feedback from the devs on this....

everytime i play neocron i think... crikey i need an upgrade ... but then i think hang on!! I got a Gforce 4 TI and 640 meg of ram... I play Battlefield 1942 or morrowind and its looks beautiful and runs very smoothly...... neocrons engine appears very old.... dammit Thief 1 looks better.....

Come on devs, tweak and fiddle will ya... something seriously wrong is happening here

DigestiveBiscui

28-08-03, 01:30

Originally posted by Nullifidian
Actually I get 2 times the framerate with a GeForce2 GTS in UT2K3 than with a GeForce4 MX

:S mine is lovely

Selendor

28-08-03, 18:24

Ok, ignoring the framerate for a second (and I agree its important), we need to consider what 'DoY' when it actually appears, will do for the game. The way I see it, you're looking at 2 major changes:

1) Splitting the server populations into a north-south divide

2) Getting an influx of new players, from advertising and new copies on shelves.

If all goes to plan, great, we have more players, KK get more resources, we have some huge north/south battles. However, (and sorry to be morbid, its just speculation) couldn't this happen?::

A) DoY comes out - 90% of experienced players immediately move to DoY, or create alts to level there. Its new and its better looking. Who wouldn't?

B)Any new players go to Neocron to find an already sparse population halved, and in choosing a Pro City faction will immediately find themselves on the losing side. This is presuming they survive newbie MC5

C) New players leave, trials over, 50% of experienced players go back south to playing their characters in Neocron city. Now we have servers such as Pluto and Uranus with tiny populations split between 2 cities.

I'm really worried, I think the recent changes to the game have been great, and the GM involvement for QA testing/balancing will make the game even better, but this expansion to me seems premature. I feel that so many of the great locations in what is already a very large online landscape remain under used and deserted. Can you say mainsewers? Outzone?

Now I'm trying not to make this into a 'waah nothing for us pro-city players' whinge, but seriously, isn't it the case on the 4 servers that the anti-city factions are already the most dominant? Won't DoY just unbalance this situation further?

I hope I'm wrong, I hope that more content like the powerarmours, like the vehicles, are added in the meantime, and then DoY won't matter as much. Either way, I strongly believe that a completely revamped system for new players in place and bug free beforehand is imperative.

Sleawer

28-08-03, 19:02

Regarding what Selendor have said, and losing all the modesty, I think KK should take a look at the idea:

Faction Loyalties, Soullight and Status in Neocron (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72011)

Players should not be force to decide something as important as a political alignment; they should be just "citizens", with this solving the problem of locked GR's, imposibility to see the DoY expansion, and the leaving of new players before even understanding the curent game style.

I think KK already have planned a free time to visit DoY; and is important to keep the idea alive, and the probably most important change in the game opened to everyone.

I see that GM's are doing an excellent work, specially lately, trying to improve GM-Player relations, keeping the game alive is one of the most inportant tasks of the volunteer staff.

The priotities for this game should be, in my opinion:

1- Bugs and technical issues (like fps, lags, crashes, errors, player issues,..)
2 - Enrich the game with more interaction between volunteer staff and paying customers, improving the gameplay (this is already being done by GM's, check the latest thead of SnowCrash)
3- DoY expansion, patchs, class changes, new stuff like models, skins, weapons, vehicles, etc..

The hard part of this, is that KK need to sort this issues in an order of priority, but at same time without forgetting the problems of each scale. To solve the problems in time and at the right time.

gostly

30-08-03, 14:34

unlike lots of patient people, ive given up on neocron, things will never change...DoY will just bring new things that will excite the world for about a week, if that, and then everything will go back to the same way that it is now...i wasnt even in beta and it feels like beta right now...like their's so many things wrong with neocron right now, and a char wipe on all servers (would of course piss off lots of people), but would it be completely un-neccessary?...the way i see it...everyone is capped and bored as shit...having everyone start over might actually bring a new kind of play to the game...and then it would give the KK team a chance to bring lots of changes to the game...of course this wont happen...but if they were to be more involved...i'd be all for a char wipe...thing is, they arent...and again it would be impossible to do this as of everyone would be too worried about losing their items/char stats/time of leveling/etc.

or shit..instead of a char wipe...bring a reason for capped players to keep playing...the only thing we have is pvp...which gets extremly boring...their's not even any excitement to it...it's just a way to be able to brag...

since im already leaving neocron, i guess my opinion doesnt really matter, but it's just my 2 cents...i just dont think everyone should expect a huge change with DoY...if they arent even working on adding new things that they've promised in the past...

Xin

30-08-03, 15:58

Originally posted by Selendor
.... This is presuming they survive newbie MC5...

That's a huge presumption. MC5 is still buggy as shit when you create a new character. I had to relog twice just to get outta there, and I have a pretty bug free install (relatively speaking for NC, of course - I fatal perhaps once a night, plus every time I exit the game)

On the related topic, fatals are not caused by "third party apps" as the devs said at the conference. Fatals are caused by bad programming. Neocron is an awesome game, but saying that me running winamp and AIM in the background caused KK's program to have a bad pointer is utter fabrication and wishful thinking on their part. As a programmer for the past 12 years, I know the solution to fatals is not me shutting down Norton antivrus before I run NC, the solution is for KK to fix the bugs!

Lethal Virus

31-08-03, 14:40

Those ingame screens look sooo sexeh :eek:

I normally get about 10-15 FPS in the Wastelands. Any idea how good/bad my framerate will be inside Dome of York?

Jesterthegreat

01-09-03, 10:39

Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
GeFroce 3 Ti
AMD (not sure which, goin shoppin tomorrow -- will be 2gig+)
gigabite mobo (again goin shoppin tomoz)
mem (shoppin -- 512 min, possibly 1034)

i get fuck all fps...

(oh broardband too)

NC Junkie

ok it is GF3 Ti 200
AMD Athlon XP+ 2.6 gig
chaintech mobo (apogee overclock tools)
256 Mb mem (mem way expensive atm)
Windows XP Pro (corp edition) SP1
Broardband net connection

NC Junkie

IronMonkey

01-09-03, 23:41

guys what all of you have been posting about faction loyalties no reason to be in specific factiosna dn such will be handled with doy lol

It's always good to um follow martin around the forums and thanatos and a few other mods and listen to everythign they say and piece it all together.

Most of the things people have adressed here will be fixed in doy.

Richard Slade

02-09-03, 10:38

Lethal Virus: 10-15 in the wasteland would probably result in the same thing as it will for me. You will not have a framerate at all :P
Maybe like 1-2 if your lucky.:wtf:

Opiate

02-09-03, 11:14

Originally posted by Xin
On the related topic, fatals are not caused by "third party apps" as the devs said at the conference. Fatals are caused by bad programming. Neocron is an awesome game, but saying that me running winamp and AIM in the background caused KK's program to have a bad pointer is utter fabrication and wishful thinking on their part. As a programmer for the past 12 years, I know the solution to fatals is not me shutting down Norton antivrus before I run NC, the solution is for KK to fix the bugs!
So true. I was hugely dissappointed in the dev team after that insane remark at the convention, I wouldn't be suprised if it would cause publishers to ignore Neocron because of this.

And I completely agree with Spy that the excuse of delaying anything because of DoY can nolonger be used, it's time to put some major effort into cracking bugs and implementing long ignored features (clan wars, item tracking).

Neocron still feels like beta because of all the bugs that plague it. The re-launch of Neocron with DoY is about the last opportunity to steal a large crowd away from some upcoming MMORPGs, now is the time to make Neocron ready for re-launch

hinch

02-09-03, 12:32

ofc opti that you have to remember they have a games room full of consoles etc which their devs play on more than work and the only member of staff in the office is a modeller o_O

ofc i want to know what the 2nd game kk is currently working on is in detail since it dont look like anything nc related to me

Vampire222

02-09-03, 14:11

why not make n00b mc5 accesible for players, so they can help the new ppl themsleves, i mean fat chance someone will go and pk em, cause they all got their le in, or re ripping it out

Jesterthegreat

02-09-03, 15:49

people asking for item tracking...

item tracking is all well abd good on alot of games... games like diablo 2, where the only drops are weapons etc...

however where killing an aggie for example drops 10 items... and people can kill 2-3 every 5 mins in 1 room of 1 sewer... well you can imagine what that would do

we complain about FPS and run time errors... well imaging if each server also had to track every single item created...

the extra strain would be immense

Glyc

02-09-03, 19:03

i think people are talking more about rare item tracking rather than the junk u get from aggressors.

mc5 parts are highly valuable and imho should be tracked to avoid abuse.

Mingerroo

02-09-03, 19:39

Originally posted by Jesterthegreat
people asking for item tracking...

item tracking is all well abd good on alot of games... games like diablo 2, where the only drops are weapons etc...

however where killing an aggie for example drops 10 items... and people can kill 2-3 every 5 mins in 1 room of 1 sewer... well you can imagine what that would do

we complain about FPS and run time errors... well imaging if each server also had to track every single item created...

the extra strain would be immense

Each server would have one huge number. This huge number would go up by one every time an item above TL 70 came into existence. It would then tag that item with that number.

This way, if an item has been duped, it will have the same tag. This isnt server heavy at all. If the two items are put into the same inventory, box, etc then one of them disappears (this can be done as part of the stacking check, to check for identical tags as well). :)

Also, maybe the server could go down once a week for an hour or so to do an almighty check, in which any duped items are scanned for (literally going through the whole list) and the names of those who own them (if attainable) are added to a list. Repeat, repeat, repeat offenders would have their names emailed by the program to the GM (being a database lookups for items with the same number is eeeeeasy), its just coding the tag etc that can be a hassle.

Thats my two cents, Id love a real coder (im a VB freak) to tell me why it might not work :) So I can improve the idea.

Xin

02-09-03, 20:55

Ming, you're right on the money. The freely available source code for every MUD that I've ever seen does just this. Mine did the scan at server startup, logged offenders and changed the player's title (equivalent to clan rank text in NC) to be "has a duped item" heh heh.

Mingerroo

02-09-03, 21:43

Originally posted by Xin
Ming, you're right on the money. The freely available source code for every MUD that I've ever seen does just this. Mine did the scan at server startup, logged offenders and changed the player's title (equivalent to clan rank text in NC) to be "has a duped item" heh heh.

hehe, YAY! I'd love to see it implemented, its a big safety feature and yes it wouldnt remove current duped items (ooh theres a problem, I suppose it would just ignore items without a tag, including our current items, leading to an increasing problem of people will just dupe the same items). Unless the implementation also went thru and tagged all current over TL 70 items (including dupes as new items). But it would stop any further duping as a general thing, :) No duping would make me much happier playing NC and working for the stuff I get :D

jernau

03-09-03, 11:17

I'm sure at some point around the start of retail they said they were adding something like this for rare weapons. I guess it never happened.

They should track all TPs, constructed rares, keys and high TL tools at least.

garyu69

03-09-03, 15:14

Originally posted by Xin
That's a huge presumption. MC5 is still buggy as shit when you create a new character. I had to relog twice just to get outta there, and I have a pretty bug free install (relatively speaking for NC, of course - I fatal perhaps once a night, plus every time I exit the game)

On the related topic, fatals are not caused by "third party apps" as the devs said at the conference. Fatals are caused by bad programming. Neocron is an awesome game, but saying that me running winamp and AIM in the background caused KK's program to have a bad pointer is utter fabrication and wishful thinking on their part. As a programmer for the past 12 years, I know the solution to fatals is not me shutting down Norton antivrus before I run NC, the solution is for KK to fix the bugs! If it is the game that is badly programmed causing the Fatals then why does everyone not experience the same problems as you?
I rarely ever fatal, i haven't actually fatalled for a few weeks. Since owning the game way back in January i have never had a problem with continued crashes or fatals.

hinch

03-09-03, 15:56

since the last 2 patches im not even getting fatals anymore

its just random shutdown to desktop every 5-10 minutes :rolleyes:

mystery8

03-09-03, 16:06

Xin

03-09-03, 16:24

Originally posted by garyu69
If it is the game that is badly programmed causing the Fatals then why does everyone not experience the same problems as you?
I rarely ever fatal, i haven't actually fatalled for a few weeks. Since owning the game way back in January i have never had a problem with continued crashes or fatals.

The short answer to your question: It's not just me. It's lots of people, including yourself, some more than others. EVERYONE experiences the fatals occassionally, even on a machine that has only Windows and Neocron installed. The developers have not taken into account the myriad configurations of a windows machine. Not doing so is that same thing as running out in front of a bus. You know it's coming, and even if pedestrians always have the right-of-way by law, you can't blame the bus.

The long answer:
Windows is a an operating system designed (poorly :p) to run multiple applications at once. When a developer writes a program for the windows operating system, as KK has done, they need to take into account that other programs will ALWAYS be running in the background, whether it's a system app like vptray.exe that houses the clock, as well as other apps that MAY be running, like a 3rd party app such as norton antivirus.

KK has insinuated that other programs are trampling on their memory space, mangling the data in such a way that their program can't read it. This means that they're either using a shared (volatile) memory space and assuming that noone else is using it, or that they are blocking off memory for their own use and some other app is forcing the OS to give IT that memory instead. In the former case, a properly written program should do the necessary checks to ensure that the volatile memory space they are writing to or reading from has not been tampered with since they last accessed it. In the latter case, you would see fatals in other applications that are used at the same time as the offending app.

Since I'm not running anything when I play that I don't run when I use other intensive apps that have no problems (music progs like Acid, office apps like Access and Excel, or other games) I assume that neocron is using some shared memory space and not using it properly.

Sure, it's possible that the program, for example, controlling my "special" keyboard buttons (you know the ones a the top of the keyboard that few ppl use, like volume control and internet search) just HAPPENs to write some bit of garbage into neocron's memory around the same time I zone, and its possible that no other program I use on my computer ever reads that bit of memory , but its extremely unlikely for several reasons:

These programs running in the background are generally doing the same thing, over and over.. polling for a change, or listening for system events. Since they are looping I'd expect to have neocron fatal very very frequently... and it doesn't.

Neocron does fatal consistantly, in certain actions. If I mess with citycom's statistics, for example, I get fatal quite often. If I move very quickly after zoning into an area with monsters that I haven't seen yet in a session, I fatal quite often. If the problem is some app I'm running in the background, the fatals should be occurring at random times when playing or EVERY time I do one of these things in neocron, not just sometimes when I do these things.

You are right, some people have problems more often than others, but that's no excuse. It's not impossible to write a more stable Neocron. There are plenty of more complex apps out there than NC, and they are stable on most people's machines. NC is unstable on most people's machines. Sure, if I shut down everything on my machine, from the printer service to the quick volume controls, I might make NC fatal a little less, but that's just preventing the problem, it's not fixing it, and I shouldn't be expected to fuck up my system configuration just to play NC.

If the box read "System requirements: don't run a firewall or an antivirus program or a network monitor, and make sure all peripherals, such as scanners, cameras and USB hubs are unplugged before running this program", then maybe I'd have some sympathy, and I'd probably do those things, but I'd bet you a beer that you'd still fatal, because the problem isn't external to NC.