View Full Version : Change the L.O.M. Pill exploit prevention system.
There are many reasons I feel the lom system needs to be Re-Thought. I understand why it is in the game, to stop an unfair exploit. Lets look at the bullet points.
GOOD POINTS
# The current system prevents an exploit, mainly performed by naughty spies.
# It's reletivly realistic. You wouldn't expect to take a pill named "Loss Of Memory" and just walk away unfethered?
# It fills up the restaraunts! Making a good roleplaying atmosphere.
# Most subscribers won't complain about lomming one of there main stats if it is relatively low.............
BAD POINTS
# ...........But lomming high stats can be extremely fustrating.
# It is fustrating wich can inevetibly persuade a customer to cancell there account. (IE me)
# It detours people from experimenting, linearizing the character customisation system.
# It's ridiculously time consuming.
# Most people just end up spamming certain channels (IE me)
# Loms used to be fun. (back in the day) Now they are a major Chor
# It becomes unfathomable at high levels.
# There are several ways of tackling an exploit, and this one does not seem to be the best way.
# People do not tend to pay money if the outcome is too fustrating. (IE me)
Please no comments on the lack of a dead animal option. If you don't want to vote then just dont vote. I am not going to add a dead animal option because it is fucking stupid.
SigmaDraconis
25-08-03, 18:09
Be glad you can reskill at all............................
Slightly less SI really is all would ask.
Originally posted by Benjie
GOOD POINTS
# The current system prevents an exploit, mainly performed by naughty spies.
only spies was it. try adding other classes with resists etc...
ghandisfury
25-08-03, 18:11
heh....you should have been around when it took a full skill point.:eek:
They need to do only one thing, and that's remove SI. Keep the %exp loss, but let people do what they want to do. It take hours to regain your exp....We shouldn't have to spend 2 hours LOMing to test a theory.....
So again, let us lose exp (keeps exploits from happening) remove SI from taking the pill.
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
Be glad you can reskill at all............................
Slightly less SI really is all would ask.
Loms are an essential part of neocron, there needs to be a way to unbind a skill. I am simply pointing out that this way is extremely fustrating. It punishes hard work the most, takes up more time than people tend to have, and fustrates.
*edit*
To the below post, I was! I was there when it took nothing aswell.
I just wish they didn't have Synaptc Imparement aswell. None!
And I wish that Lomming Capped skills didn't take quite so much exp away.
Originally posted by ghandisfury
heh....you should have been around when it took a full skill point.:eek:
They need to do only one thing, and that's remove SI. Keep the %exp loss, but let people do what they want to do. It take hours to regain your exp....We shouldn't have to spend 2 hours LOMing to test a theory.....
So again, let us lose exp (keeps exploits from happening) remove SI from taking the pill.
:) WINNAR ! :)
Originally posted by ghandisfury
heh....you should have been around when it took a full skill point.:eek:
They need to do only one thing, and that's remove SI. Keep the %exp loss, but let people do what they want to do. It take hours to regain your exp....We shouldn't have to spend 2 hours LOMing to test a theory.....
So again, let us lose exp (keeps exploits from happening) remove SI from taking the pill.
Agreed. Thats one other thing that has put me off playing for the last three weeks (apart from joining a DoD clan and getting right back into the game in a big way, havent had so much fun in ages :) ) is the fact I want to switch my Spy to Rifles. I will have to lom over 150+ points in Willpower and RCL to RC and Weapon lore. This I have done once before and took me over 8hours. Quite frankly i can not be fuckin arsed spending that amount of time to increase my enjoyment of the game. The levelling treadmill is bad enough but having to LOM for a straight 8+ hours is outright bloody frustrating and extremely boring. I'd rather not bother.
If KK were to leave the EXP loss (maybe even increasing it SLIGHTLY, no sledgehammer tactics please) and removing the Synap (which is the big time consumer) then it would improve things an inordinate amount. I would be having fun again with something new to play with and I would be able to do it relatively quickly and go out and work on the lost EXP. At the level i am at LOM'ing currently is going to lose me AT LEAST 3 levels in INT and DEX. isnt that penalty enough without adding on the major timesink? :mad:
Originally posted by Elric
If KK were to leave the EXP loss (maybe even increasing it SLIGHTLY, no sledgehammer tactics please) and removing the Synap (which is the big time consumer) then it would improve things an inordinate amount.
I think the Expirience thing needs to work more in depth than that. Lomming at high levels takes a shit load of exp away as it is. I think they need to up the low end exp loss and lower the high end exp loss. |More complex but soooooooooooo satisfying.
I'm all for cutting back on the SI.
Just halfing it would be a big bonus.
I took over 50 LOMs one time to move one skill that was no use to me over to another. It took forever and the amount of downtime was unreal.
I'd say move the SI to 10% per lom and have it that you can't LOM at >40%. So you can pop 4 pills at a time.
Original monk
25-08-03, 18:38
indeed i agree with you with every point, lomming sucks atm, to go even further, loms should never have existed 8|
but hey, evil is here and now they better take care off it, FIX them stupid loms i dont care how as long it doesnt take 5 hours to lom a bit :/
PS: i dont agree with every point, ya shuld of made a dead animals option, or atleast a dead drom option o_O
ericdraven
25-08-03, 18:44
Originally posted by Benjie
I think the Expirience thing needs to work more in depth than that. Lomming at high levels takes a shit load of exp away as it is. I think they need to up the low end exp loss and lower the high end exp loss. |More complex but soooooooooooo satisfying.
It's already like this - low levels lose more than high levels.
Of course you should not compare the 500 points XP loss at level 2 to the 800k+ loss at level 100. :p
If you look at the factor between xp loss and "level gap" you will see that low levels can LOM not as often as high levels.
Some numbers: level 20: 4,5 times
best level for LOMing: level 60 (you can LOM almost 20 times without losing a level)
level 100: 16,8 times
BUT - remove that bloody SI. It's just annoying and i don't see the sense behind it anymore, because LOMing drains XP, and that should be enough!
MortuusLupus
25-08-03, 18:47
I lommed my Rifle PE to pistols back when LOMing took off a full skill level...that was not very much fun at all.
Progenitor
25-08-03, 21:51
As others have stated, if they got rid of the SI, or at least lowered it to maybe half of the GR SI, it would be fine as is.
-p
Get rid of the SI.
The SI is pointless. Lomming COMPLETELY from one FULL tradeskill to another, can lose up to 4 levels. If you wanna be a tard and lom back and forth, then that's your problem.
The SI is just a nuisance, the XP loss is enough to deter constant switching.
remove SI, make xp loss higher. (imo there should be a penalty for loming, but consuming time is not what i have in mind)
Remove Synaptic Imparement
*whistles off quietly*
yeah the SI sucks....but the XP loss should be slightly increased if they get rid of the SI imho....the amount of XP u lose is almost nothing as long as its one of your main stats
A compromise idea I had (which others have probably had before me) was replacing synaptic with a drug/spell effect.
ie, have one of those little timer bars that drugs, poison, shelter, etc get. Have it last whatever length of time is deemed appropriate (eg, the current 5 minutes that synaptic takes). While the timer is in effect you simply can't take another LoM pill.
But you've not got any synaptic. So you can continue to play, just popping a LoM every few minutes while you do so.
That way you still can't bounce between skills with no delay, but you're not resigned to having to be online and unable to actually play the game either.
I personally don't care whether this would retain the xp loss or not. I just hate the idea of being forced to be online but being unable to actually participate in the game for hours at a time if you decide on a change of direction.
bibliotequa
25-08-03, 23:25
are you insane? Increase xp loss? Get a char to lvl 100, then lom a few times cause you need to reroll or something *coughs* the hybrids in the last nerf patch *coughs* you will loose like 3 lvls, and take like 6 hours, then reskilling, if you make a mistake, back to lomming, bleh it really sucks, and at lvl 100, 3 lvls means about 39 million xp ( about 42 if you want to cap xpwise), increase it more and youll be nerfed to hell and back when you lom, i agree with Archeus, take it to 10% si, and have it so you can take 4 at a time. It was done cuase ppl like say tanks would lom their wep lore to hack to hack wbs a long time ago so they could solo, then back to wep, or combat spies to hack ops, etc... pricey, but you could get way more cash off the loot or w/e so ppl didnt mind, it only took like 10 seconds to do it back then
I should point out that I believe the LoMs in any state other than the original (no level loss, no xp loss, no synaptic, and low priced) should not be the official solution to any gameplay changes that require people to change their setups to adapt to (eg, the hybrid changes). Skill resets or temporary 'original' LoMs should be used for that. The current 'punishing' LoMs should only be for when someone has simply decided they don't want a skill anymore.
*plots total player numbers before and after patch #163*
Yeah... Well done KK. The LoM change strategy has been a runaway success. Obviously.
Don't be fooled by the tumbleweed blowing around in the mostly empty servers, or the shrinking income stream.
It was a rip-roaring success.
In much the same way as the Hindenburg.
Psyco Groupie
25-08-03, 23:56
loms should give tanks and pes si cos they are dumb and easy to cap and everyone else should get carebear loms!
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
:) WINNAR ! :)
LoL
Yeha t3h winnar...........lommed a capped melee tank to heavy then.........man i hate loms.
Oath.
i voted yes - ditto to removing SI
some nice ideas here but KK pls just remove the Si next patch and then do whatever else u think in your own time not mine :) (lomming 160 PC for the next 3-4 days)
Remove them entirely or make then unusable >level 20.
Mr Friendly
26-08-03, 01:30
if u wanna experiment, make some char on saturn of all the classes
Progenitor
26-08-03, 02:23
All of this talk about LOMs made me think of something - does your current skill level with implants affect the amount of XP you loose per LOM or does it go off your natural level?
If so, then it would behoove one to remove implants before LOMing.
????
-p
Originally posted by Mr Friendly
if u wanna experiment, make some char on saturn of all the classes
And what if, after experimenting, you realise that is impossible to have that 115 poke on your apu, what do you do then?
Just remove the SI, the xp loss prevents people from exploiting all by itself, since it's far more than you can get by simply hunting while lomming. Or even just remove the 0% synap requirement, so you can take all the loms you want, and then you wait for it to come down from 99% synap (as well as losing the xp of course).
neophotographer
26-08-03, 03:46
get rid of the SI, leave the experience loss. I think that would be nice. I could finally decide to experiment a little more with my setup instead of trying something (which takes me 4 hours to free up all the points I need) and finding out it doesn't work so I spend another 4 hours going back to how I was.
Stacey
Lose the SI and keep the xp loss and I would be happy.
I already know lomming is gonna make me lose xp, that's no big deal, but making me wait 3 hours to lose 4 levels is retarded.
Yes, lose the SI.
Can anyone think of a way this could be expoiled ? I cant.
If so post here, if not, and there is NO expliot other than some retard willing to lose precious levels to construct & research, then it should be removed imeaditly. (thats gotta be spelt wrong, damn i need spell check)
Dont forget, some people pay for there internet by teh hour, & if you think there gonna pay money to sit in medicare all day, your wrong.
At the end of the day its a friggn game, & wnating to try something different to increase our enjouyment playing should not be penalised.
Might even mean a few less cookie cutter characters in game. (Nothing like a monk using melee on ya to give you a good laugh).
Why assume it's all about exploits?
IMO LOMs should be removed because they have no place in an RPG.
If they have to stay then the restrictions should be ultra-strong. I'd say 100SI, full skill level loss (LOL pills) and only 1 pill per 24 hours IRL is about right. Add in a way to get one or two full skill releases at certain trigger points (eg. at level 40 and at cap) or a use-once rare that releases all skills.
I'm going to say loms are fine the way they are, the only change I would make is a 33% reduction in the SI you get.
With continous game changes making people reskill it just takes to long. My hybrid monk ion Saturn is gathering dust half wat thru lomming to APU.
I agree that the SI penalty is too high atm, I would say go for 5-10% SI and keep the XP loss. People should be able to retool their chars if they feel for it.
/Cryton
Original monk
26-08-03, 11:59
Free up ALL skillpoints in all skills so ya can put em back the way ya like. Then COMPLETELY remove every Lom or everything that even sounds like Lom.
Also make a superLOMpill that removes ALL skillpoints yust in case for the people that wonna rechange their setups, or for people that been on vacation or so, let this superlom be for sale for about a month maybe 2 months after the first release of all skillpoints (this superlom doesnt give synaptic or very low).
Why ya want to remove all loms ? because everybody whines the PvP gets so boring cause all setups are the same, all the same tanks, all the same psi's etc, all the same weapons and the same setups, wich makes pvp veery boring. ( the people copy eachother setups so ya get 1 basic setup witouth to many variations)
I think that the moment they introduced LoMs this game was fucked, intentions where good, cause when ya put some wrong stuff as a newbee ya couldnt make it back up (example: resist psi)
but as i see it now, Loms did more damage then they really did something usefull for the server.
REMOVE LOMS PEOPLE
Originally posted by kurai
*plots total player numbers before and after patch #163*
Yeah... Well done KK. The LoM change strategy has been a runaway success. Obviously.
Don't be fooled by the tumbleweed blowing around in the mostly empty servers, or the shrinking income stream.
It was a rip-roaring success.
In much the same way as the Hindenburg.
OMFG i couldnt ov put it better myself :)
I dont even want to see another lom pill after the last hybrid nerf grrr :mad:
neophotographer
27-08-03, 04:32
Originally posted by Original monk
Free up ALL skillpoints in all skills so ya can put em back the way ya like. Then COMPLETELY remove every Lom or everything that even sounds like Lom.
Also make a superLOMpill that removes ALL skillpoints yust in case for the people that wonna rechange their setups, or for people that been on vacation or so, let this superlom be for sale for about a month maybe 2 months after the first release of all skillpoints (this superlom doesnt give synaptic or very low).
Why ya want to remove all loms ? because everybody whines the PvP gets so boring cause all setups are the same, all the same tanks, all the same psi's etc, all the same weapons and the same setups, wich makes pvp veery boring. ( the people copy eachother setups so ya get 1 basic setup witouth to many variations)
I think that the moment they introduced LoMs this game was fucked, intentions where good, cause when ya put some wrong stuff as a newbee ya couldnt make it back up (example: resist psi)
but as i see it now, Loms did more damage then they really did something usefull for the server.
REMOVE LOMS PEOPLE
so what happens when new people come in and put pojnts int he wrong thing. I've recently helped a tank reset his skills in the rigth place. ya know what his starting dex skills were like 6 pc, 4 rc, 10 tc, 13 agl, and 3 repair. (or something really messed like that.) I gave him at least 15-20 pills to reset at least half his points because they sucked really really bad.
If you get rid of loms then you're asking for more and more people to leave imo, because this game has such a high learning curve that unless you're helped out you usually don't know what to put points into. then also you can't figure out how to do setups for con points and such.
Stacey
yanbybkipbbpbbp
27-08-03, 06:27
Ooh I have a brilliant idea, how about we just unlock all skills and you can put as many points into any skill, and as many points into any sub skill as you want, and reshape them at your own will. While we are there lets just get rid of getting exp as well, and remove all the classes and just have one called UberTaPsSpPrivateYI, I mean really it’s only an RPG right? I mean we shouldn’t live with the choices we made while creating our char. This game has already lost its PvP points, lets get rid of the RPG parts as well so that were only left with carebears running around loming to their licking with their uber chars PvMing and singing flower power songs and telling flower power stories to and with each other. Bah, I’m going to go play some unreal tournament 2003, no need to pay for my neocron account, I mean really what DOES this game have to offer over all the other ones out there? PvP? Defently not, RPG? Not for long, PvM? Well I have Diablo 1 and 2/ everquest for that.
Oh and neophotographer, I think that the only people who experience such learning curves are either retards or, well, lets just say individuals like you, because this must be the most simplest mmorpg out there, it has the least options, the smallest city, shit it even provides a damn navray, and a map for every sector. Plus I think that if you’re so freaking stupid (which applies to you) you shouldn’t even play this game and should definitely not breed and contaminate this already stagnant gene pool we have on this planet.
KRIMINAL99
27-08-03, 20:49
lol your poll assumes that KK "thinks" about anything as opposed to just catering to the largest group of whiners at the time... Im sure they will shed this habit as soon as the biggest group happens to be the ones who are right and have logical arguments... :rolleyes:
Why Psi are the same is becasue you dont have anything to use then HL :p the rest is shit.......
yea forgot the fizzel Apoc that darins pool faster then i can say Hello..... and the no dmg Posion beam sorry :(
I < like S.I. > I < Like < F.P.S. = < S.I. ([plz] x (1 X[NC. accounts])) [else] ([NC. accounts]= - (1 x [NC. accounts]))
aye... i think all of ye are foolish...
LoM pills should exist in an unstable game... but how they exist kinda sucks... and given what KK has shown us Neocron can do, i don't really see anything that doesn't suck working...
i liked it back when you really didn't NEED the damn lom pills, cause a few points in the wrong spot didn't fuck you over this much... ah well...
i think maybe it would not be a good idea to touch the LoMs... even though they do suck... why? At least they WORK right now... who knows what would happen when KK starts fiddling with it...
LoM pills... the idea of being able to "unlearn" something and learn something new... should exist... otherwise this game wouldn't be as fun... learning something new in a game is part of the reason I play them... i dunno about the rest of you, but finding/doing something new/newish is entertaining...
for example... throwing nekkid, tied up ************'s out of the window of a moving Train... i realized i could do that in the Commando's 3 demo... that was fun... oo... now I'll play it more since i can, in fact, throw nekkid germans out of a window... sure, i cant see them hit the floor or get mangled under the train wheels, but the IDEA itself makes me giggle like a virgin school girl...
one of the reasons i no longer play is the lack of any real sense of "now im uber... i can do more then just ONE DAMN THING..." like back in beta 4... early beta 4 anyway...
"WOOHOO! i just worked my ass off for level 100 Int on a monk (yeah right... like i would ever consider being that bored) and now i can invest 5 more points into PSU, cause if I dont. my rof/range will 'suck'... YE-HAW!"
granted, this is a specialization bitch... but... still... the only way to try something new in this game is reroll or lom... both take forever... i dont want stuff handed to me, but I dont wanna do '10 years in salt mines' just to TRY something...
aye... whatever... ultimately it doesn't matter... as Kriminal said... KK only listens to the whiners, when they actually listen...
Originally posted by redjacket
LoM pills... the idea of being able to "unlearn" something and learn something new... should exist...
I agree. The original problem was though people could LOM within minutes from thier combat stats to whatever trades person they wanted to be and then back again when they were finished.
There was never a reason to find a barter/imp/cst/res/rep person as you could just lom to it yourself.
The XP loss is good. I'm sure KK have a valid reason for the downtime although personally I think it is a bit too long for the downtime.
Originally posted by Archeus
I agree. The original problem was though people could LOM within minutes from thier combat stats to whatever trades person they wanted to be and then back again when they were finished.
There was never a reason to find a barter/imp/cst/res/rep person as you could just lom to it yourself.
The XP loss is good. I'm sure KK have a valid reason for the downtime although personally I think it is a bit too long for the downtime. i am well aware of the original problem having exploited it several times to have sexual intercourse with a dead monkey... (needed to throw in obligitory dead animal refrence)
the down time is to painful... if XP loss and downtime are the only ways they can limit this, XP loss only... but there are other ways to put in a skill loss system... ways that border on the "non-retarded" way of doing things... if given enough time, and a type writer, i could even come up with something...
something will eventually give... maybe by some act of Doug KK will invent some bad ass lom system... or maybe the foolish will get their way and LoMs will be removed... or the LoM system wont change... people will leave if nothing is done, but people could leave even if something is... so... whatever...
ick... i cant get the picture of a fried rat in a bucket of chicken out of my head...
Originally posted by yanbybkipbbpbbp
Ooh I have a brilliant idea, how about we just unlock all skills and you can put as many points into any skill, and as many points into any sub skill as you want, and reshape them at your own will. While we are there lets just get rid of getting exp as well, and remove all the classes and just have one called UberTaPsSpPrivateYI, I mean really it’s only an RPG right? I mean we shouldn’t live with the choices we made while creating our char. This game has already lost its PvP points, lets get rid of the RPG parts as well so that were only left with carebears running around loming to their licking with their uber chars PvMing and singing flower power songs and telling flower power stories to and with each other. Bah, I’m going to go play some unreal tournament 2003, no need to pay for my neocron account, I mean really what DOES this game have to offer over all the other ones out there? PvP? Defently not, RPG? Not for long, PvM? Well I have Diablo 1 and 2/ everquest for that.
Oh and neophotographer, I think that the only people who experience such learning curves are either retards or, well, lets just say individuals like you, because this must be the most simplest mmorpg out there, it has the least options, the smallest city, shit it even provides a damn navray, and a map for every sector. Plus I think that if you’re so freaking stupid (which applies to you) you shouldn’t even play this game and should definitely not breed and contaminate this already stagnant gene pool we have on this planet.
you ,sir, are a fucktard. the first paragraph was fine, wtf was the second about? get out of the house m8, meet some real people.
remove the synaptic keep the xp loss. job done.
Originally posted by icarium
you ,sir, are a fucktard. the first paragraph was fine, wtf was the second about? get out of the house m8, meet some real people.
remove the synaptic keep the xp loss. job done.
Yeah that guy was being a dick. Well Said! Bravo!
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