Do you think monks need to be completely reworked?

[Arcadius]

This isn't a NERF thread. I just wanna know how many people think monks need to be completely reworked.

[Disturbed021]

hmmm overhaul in what way tho?

[Judge]

Yes I think that they do.

I think the hybrid "class" fits the idea of psi monk best. But I can understand people liking being Pure. There should have been some advantages of being pure over hybrid.... Rather than just a complete Hybrid kill.

[Voodoochicken]

I'd be in favour of removing MST and "balancing" PSI some other way.

There are a few issues with monks.

1) Armour
2) MST
3) PPU/APU specialisation
4)let's not forget changes to the psi use skill in INT (but no corresponding changes to any of the implants)
5) Hybrids

[Spookily.. 1-4 are all mainly related to point 5 ... hybrids]


-KK have put too many "balance" changes in, which, due to further changes, now appear to be redundant/unbalancing.

In this respect, it would be much easier to "start again" from a blank slate.

ie. redesign from the ground up.

(Totally redecorating a room might take longer than simply putting a new coat of paint on, but the finished product will also be much better.)

***
However, I'd also be in favour of reworking all the armour/armoured implants/weapons in the game. :lol:

I think the items need to be balanced/made interesting in conjunction with sorting out subskills.


(I think I'll make a basic thread about armour. .and it will probably raise points that have been said before -and ignored.)

[Arcadius]

FFs, option 4 was a joke. :p If I knew it was gonna take that many votes.............:(



Originally posted by Disturbed021
hmmm overhaul in what way tho?


No specific way. Just in general, if you feel the class is Fed up now.





Btw, I voted for option 1.



OTHER can also mean if you feel apu or ppu needs a revamp but not both.

[KidWithStick]

i think there fine...

[Disturbed021]

Dunno if they need a total revamp. I love my apu monkey.
PPUs seem to decide battles. More often than not if you have more PPUs or better PPUs you will probably win....which is the point I guess.

They (kk) obvoiusly want 2 seperate PSI classes APU and PPU.
I really don't know what players want, depends on who you ask.
Tanks that have been owned by hybrids 4 so long just want all monkeys to die :p PEs and Spies get owned and want more nerfs.
Nerfed hybrids just bitch for the most part cause they r still pissed. What most don't understand is when you combine a good PPU and either a Tank or APU they are lethal to every class except PPU and another Tank or APU.

I apparently don't have much of a point other than isn't this the way it should be? In order to win a battle you have to have good medics (PPUs) and good fighters (Tanks and APUs), the other classes are just fodder, except a really good PE or spy once in awhile.

[.Cyl0n]

make all monks hybrids and balance em then .

.cy

[Judge]

Originally posted by Disturbed021
In order to win a battle you have to have good medics (PPUs) and good fighters (Tanks and APUs), the other classes are just fodder, except a really good PE or spy once in awhile.

Fodder..... thanks. :rolleyes:


Originally posted by .Cyl0n
make all monks hybrids and balance em then

What about all the monks who want to be pure, I've heard alot of people say that if they are forced to become hybrids (against their wish) then they will quit.

[Heavyporker]

No, no... while I agree that hybrid fits what I envison the class of PSI Monk would be... Also, I refuse to have my APU monk not be capable of doing large amounts of direct damage and area damage... But.... Monks have to go beyond that...

Why not *really* extend Monk abilities? Make it so you have to delve really deeply into the role of PSI to be able to figure it out...

After all, it's supposed to be a special class... The hardest class to truly excel in...

Make it so that hybrids (good direct attack and good personal defense), the front-line fighter monk, is simply a baseline of the PSI Monk class...

Pure monks could eschew mere front-lining...

Hybrids can only use single-target attack spells (bolts on up to beams) and personal defense spells (single-target heals and buffs and single target sheilds)... this would work because with the ability to sheild others weakened, this would stay balanced...
Simply make it so that hybrids cannot use the group spells and barrels, THEN tone down the APU/PPU crossover penalty to say, 15-20%.

Pure APU monks would lay down their direct attack ability (how the hell will we do that? Maybe make it so they're too weak for high-level pures to use in PvP combat?), but gain the ability to cast weakening spells (yeah, a bow to Arcadius) targeting specific resistances, and have massive AoE (this means un-nerfing the range of barrels... you want us APUs to support? Give us our barrels!(keep out of hybrid reach by making having no PPU a req.)), would have the vampire spell (easy to keep out of hybrid reach - make it require having no having PPU skill)... Pure APUs should also get some sort of "Chaos Pull" spell (not sure if I posted this idea before, so...) that makes the target's aiming really bad... like -30% to -40% or something to the target's weapon lore, meaning that the target couldn't threaten the APU so much if he stays out of range...

Pure PPUs would pretty much stay the same... but... their group spells have a requirement of having no APU, so that's that for hybrids using them... and make SCs a tad smarter, but keep them dumber than other creatures - PPUs should *NOT* have any real attack ability.

I think that would flesh out the support role of APUs rather nicely.

Hey, APUs should get SoulClusters as well... Maybe make SoulClusters require only PSI and MST to use, and the SoulCluster's AI increases immensely at the higher levels (80 and on) so they would actually be usable up at those levels.

I stand adamant that APUs should still retain the ability to cause massive damage... its just that's APUs become more nunaced at the higher levels.

what do you guys think?


edit - APUs should also retain the anti-buff spells... but...

GAWDDAMMIT MAKE THE ANTIHEAL FASTER AND LESS MANA-EXPENSIVE!!! The fact that tanks do more anti-healing by using TL3 heals to gimp the PPUs healing themselves than APUs can with a tailor-made anti-heal pisses me off to no end.

Make anti-heals cast at a max of 60/min and use only 100 mana or so, and with the current PSI Use curve, most APUs would only be able to cast at like 30/min, definitely a vast improvement...

8/min and 290 - 330 mana DOES NOT FUCKING CUT IT, all right?!?!?

I would ONLY, and I repeat, ONLY accept anti-heal costing 300 mana and 10/min *IF* and I repeat *ONLY IF* casting anti-heal on a player started a timer on the player during which he could not be healed... Think of it as a heal that does not heal, meaning that a heal can't be put on it... It's not so hard to think about it... TL3 Heal from a tank does the same thing to a PPU!

[Disturbed021]

Originally posted by Judge
Fodder..... thanks. :rolleyes:


No offense but it is true for the most part. I have a couple of spies and PEs and the most affective things for those characters to do is to snipe from a distance, scout, hack/poke, or otherwise just annoy the other side but when it comes to actually affectively killing that is up to the APUs and Tanks with the backing of a PPU.

[Heavyporker]

oh.. voted "monk class don't need complete revamp" because as I posted, I believe that working on the APU monks and easing up on the hybrids and tweaking PPUs would do more than well enough.

[Judge]

I like the ideas Heavyporker. I don't play a monk so I don't understand them properly but they sound all good and proper and stuff :p

I know what you mean Disturbed021. It was just a joke :p

I need a good resist/armour setup. I don't think that mine is very good :(

[Heavyporker]

Oh, go ahead and try a Monk, Judge... it's a whole another world... especially a pure APU, heh. *almost* as hard hitting as a Pistol PE with about 1/5th his survivability.

[Arcadius]

Originally posted by Judge

What about all the monks who want to be pure, I've heard alot of people say that if they are forced to become hybrids (against their wish) then they will quit.


Alot of those same people didn't mind seeing hybrids forced to become pure.


Originally posted by Disturbed021
No offense but it is true for the most part. I have a couple of spies and PEs and the most affective things for those characters to do is to snipe from a distance, scout, hack/poke, or otherwise just annoy the other side but when it comes to actually affectively killing that is up to the APUs and Tanks with the backing of a PPU.


And you're OK with spies and pes being for the most part useless in team PvP?



Personally I think apus and ppus need a total revamp. PPu is just a flawed class. Simply too important. You can have such an enormous gap in teh ratio of importance between classes, that's simply stupid and unfair. You could be the most skilled PvPer in the world, fighting alongside OTHER skilled pvpers, but if your PPU sux you WILL lose. Or if you don't have enough ppus. THat's silly. Not to mention there's a shortage of ppus. The other day Carinth told me he's CONSIDERING lomming to apu, but if he does that the only active ppu in our clan would go poof. WE have 2 others. But either they are not online, or they don't wanna fight, or they rarely fight, etc..... I just realized unless we recruit another GOOD ppu that is active, we would be fucked for the most part. That's stupid. IMO ppus ruin PvP because of the immense power they hold over team battle.

But I won't get into that, for now i'll just talk about the apu.


I don't think the APU has turned out the way KK wanted it. They said they didn't want us to be good alone in combat, they were wrong. They wanted us to be a support role, only one spell allows us that. Antibuff. THAT"S IT. A support role based on one spell is a bit silly.

I want apus to be like the mages of fantasy, extremely weak, powerhouse offense and AOE spells. Me and Porky Pig(:p) have SIMILAR visions of apu. I believe apu should be much weaker than they are now, weaker than spies, but they should get mass offense spells, a variety of offense spells(force beams, a rare poison, x-ray beam etc... ), stat reducing spells, etc.... And their AOE needs to be improved. Barrels are just silly IMO. Their AOE needs a serious revamp.

I also believe hybrid monks should be mave viable.

[Omnituens]

please please PLEASE

leave all classes alone now. fix bug that should have been fixed in beta, then get DoY done and out, THEN balance.

im got the mad smiley link right here..

...dont make me use it.

[Arcadius]

Aren't you quitting anyways? :p

[Omnituens]

you obviously didnt read my leaving thread properly, i said i was taking a break for a bit, thats why i wasnt giving any stuff away.

[.Cyl0n]

the thing is that we always been hybrids judge... and as arc said ... they didnt mind us being forced to go pure too ..

.cy

[Scikar]

I'll tell ya what annoys me. I've been playing a rifle PE on Pluto. We got a message that one of our OPs was being hacked, Gabanium. The rest of the clan was in the swamp caves, I was at TH just getting my hovertec out to ride over. I changed direction and went straight to the OP. I then proceeded to kill a rifle PE, 2 tanks and a pistol spy, and the 2 remaining stealthers ran. Then my clan finally got there, we took a stealther down, the other got away. I was seriously lucky that they didn't have a ppu, because as soon as a ppu is on the cards, I can't do any of that, for 2 reasons - parashock, and holy heal.

The reason parashock and holy heal are even in the game is because ppus can justify them by having no offense (though of course they are very quiet about killing someone with an assault rifle or an uzi, or parashock). Make all monks hybrid, and those arguments go out the window. However I can see us being brought back to the days of uber hybrids again, so there is one thing which is absolutely necessary if we make all monks hybrids - they must have a fundamental weakness. They should have good heals and good shields, but unless there is a realistic method of taking them down it will be pointless.

[Arcadius]

Make all monks hybrids, take away psi armor. :p

[.Cyl0n]

yea make all monks hybrids again... and balance then..

.cy

[Disturbed021]

Originally posted by Arcadius

And you're OK with spies and pes being for the most part useless in team PvP?


Not really OK with it, but I don't have a good Idea of how to balance this and I know what my role is as a Spy.
When my spy goes in to an OP battle I stealth and attempt to snipe from a distance. My role is to scout abit using stealth, add a little bit of fire, then to hack the OP. My role is not to try to take down a tank by my lonesome.

Monks and Tanks are skilled to fight and that is about all they are good for (and they are damn good at it). PPUs are a MUST have in OP fights. If you ain't got one you better hope the other side doesn't.

Spies are skilled to do tradeskills (its always been this way). I mean I have a level xx/42 Pistol spy that is fun as hell to level with but because of the lack of Con and armor will never see an OP fight unless capped and I'm bored.

PEs, if in the hands of a skilled player and setup well, can hang for awhile at an OP fight.

Is it so wrong to have 2 classes dominant the OP wars? I dunno. Most ppl know that you win OP wars with Tanks and Monks not PEs and Spies. Makes things kind of annoying for those 2 classes especially on the single character servers but that is the way it is and I don't have any ideas O_o besides your the one with all the ideas Arc :p Most of them good ideas I might add...so what would YOU like to see done?

[Arcadius]

Originally posted by Disturbed021
so what would YOU like to see done?


Pretty radical. I'm sure no one would like them. I think pes should get their own brand of PSI spells, which they can use not only to boost themselves but to support their team as well.

I already gave my ideas on pistol spies. I think ppus should have polymorph and leveitation spells for safety. I think tehy should have offense as well up to halo spells. I think their defense should be much weaker though. I don't think "cleric" class of anygame should be near invincible or require an army to kill. :rolleyes: I think tanks should be able to bypass the health cap, and maybe have +200 health. I think they should have the ability to "protect' or "guard" members of other classes. So a PPU would need a TANK to guard him while he wields his awesome defense and healing power. And everyone else would need the buffs of PPU and the specific buffs of PEs.


Pretty radical, i'm sure no one likes it. The POINT is I think all classes should be needed in PeeVeePee, or NONE should be needed.

[Xian]

Originally posted by Arcadius
The POINT is I think all classes should be needed in PeeVeePee, or NONE should be needed.

Effectively bringing everyone to the same level of combat effectiveness? Doesn't that just eliminate the point of class altogether?

[enablerbr]

if monks want MST removed. then remove T-C as thats just another point sink. so you monks can just sup up that MST sink.:p

[ZoneVortex]

OMG BOOST PISTOLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111ONEONEONE

[Arcadius]

Originally posted by Xian
Effectively bringing everyone to the same level of combat effectiveness? Doesn't that just eliminate the point of class altogether?


The same level of effectiveness because all classes are needed?



Sorry I don't see how their both synonamous with each other. Furthermore the other classes don't HAVE to be as needed as ppus, but having the "importance" ratio of tank:1 pe:0 spy:0 apu:3 ppu:25 is out of whack.

[Detritus]

Originally posted by Arcadius
The POINT is I think all classes should be needed in PeeVeePee, or NONE should be needed.

totally agree ...


Originally posted by Xian
Effectively bringing everyone to the same level of combat effectiveness? ...

same effectiveness .... yes
but in different ways


a rifle spy shouldn't be able to go into closecombat against a tank
but as long as the enemy has a ppu happiliy breathing, a sniping spy is totally useless

the advantage of a pistol user should be his running speed; parashock just renders this advantage useless
if he's a pistol spy, he'll get vaporized by an apu before he can even come into combat range...

droners ... hmm, can't think of anything atm
currently he's just a minor nuisance to get rid of in 2 to 3 hl-shots :(
(on jupiter in tg i haven't seen a droner except one loney spy for weeks now, and as far as i know ... there's NOT A SINGLE ONE LEFT
he lommed to rifles just yesterday )


monks & tanks fit into their role pretty good atm ... sometimes too good



PS.:

and vehicles should have some use in combat too
currently rhinos are a laughing stock :(

[Xian]

Originally posted by Arcadius
Sorry I don't see how their both synonamous with each other. Furthermore the other classes don't HAVE to be as needed as ppus, but having the "importance" ratio of tank:1 pe:0 spy:0 apu:3 ppu:25 is out of whack.

I see your point, but in all honesty I've hardly ever been in a fight where a PPU hasn't been around, so I'm so used to it now I don't care.

In my opinion buffs last such a fucking short time anyway you need one hell of a PPU to keep you 'uber'. Heals are hard to cast on people who are running all over the place, too.

I mean, I've been in an OP war where there are two of us (tanks) left, taking on 5 other Tanks who all had PPU buffs, and we won. On the other hand, I've fought others who are half-decent at PvP and had my ass handed to me as I did tiny damage with my CS because of their PPU and skill.

I count PEs as very important during OP wars, but I guess that's just me. I do see your point though.

What I'm trying (and failing, too much to drink I guess) to say is that PPUs do play too much of an important role, but unless you nerf them senseless or drop them from the game entirely they're always going to be like that. Raising the 'need' for PEs and Spies should be done in terms of combat effectiveness.

[Birkoff]

Don't think monks need much of a change they just need to make it so that there un planned class cna be equal.. yess hybrids... i was a hybrid and im ppu now and i have nearly as much fun at times

Monks dont need overhaul to mcuh work that could be spent on things worth doing :)

[Mr Friendly]

not actually. ppus are strong, apus can kill alone if ur good, ......BUT the only thing they need to fix is hybrids. right now it even sux to be hybrid for lvlin.

personal, i think they should make it where hybrids now become what hybrids were IF they have the LAW chip in. this way no hybrids will be PKn, it'll just be realy good for lvlin.

in other words, the negatives are removed for havin apu & ppu, when the law chip is inserted

[Heavyporker]

Well, yeah, removing penalty for hybrids with LE chip in sounds good...

Anyways... Well, arcadius, isn't the current shield nerf powerful enough to shrink the reliance on PPUs?

If you wanted to take limiting the importance of PPUs in PvP how would you go about it?

The only thing that I can think of right now is making heals work, say, 15-20% less well when cast on others.

That and shortening buff times downwards from say 30 to 1 minute less, so if ppl want to fight with PPU buffs, they have to move fast.

Basically, what I'm seeing is making the PPU personally near un-killable, but he cannot extend the same scale of protection to others.

And I can't really see adding even more spells to PPUs already, because for one, they have loads already, and for another, what protection aspect hasn't already been covered?

OH! OH! Wait, I got a great idea - if antidote spells (the direct ones, anyway) are cast on others, they take like twice as long to cast... So perhaps that might bring back somewhat the viablity of poison in PvP? And those antidote sanctums remove say one or two less stacks each tick than they currently do... so they don't completely wipe out the APU's poison.

Now, I wouldn't say no to an increase of dmg per tick to APU poison spells, they're all currently too weak against 0 POR targets, balancing be damned - we have to wait for the total damage to kick in, we might as well make the damage decent enough in the interval! 0 POR ppl can outheal four to five capped APU poison beam stacks, with medikits, WTF.

And about those health buffs... what if they worn down like shields, when the buffed person got hit repeatedly? Would that work?


edit - levitation should be accessible to pure APUs as well!

[Voodoochicken]

I've mentioned some of this before.. and I'll mention it again. :p


PPUs are really hard to kill + massively boost anyone around them.

[The subskill boosts they can impart on anyone are massive. They can resurrect.. They can damage boost.. They can parashock. They can shield. They can heal. And you can maybe kill them if you have APUs.]


***
I'd like to see all the boost spells changed drastically.

Instead of adding so massively to subskills, eg, +30 XRR, +30 POR, or +20 HLT, +20 bleh, or +15 HC/MC/RCL/CST, etc, etc.

They should add to the main skill, plus a little amount to subskills (+5 or less, but might be a lot of subskills).

ie. +5/4/3/2/1 STR/INT/CON/DEX/PSI and,eg, +5/4/3/2/1 HC/CST/(all resists)/(all dex combat skills)/etc.

You could really make things simple by having the following.

STR booster spell: +x STR, +x (all subskills under STR)*

DEX booster spell: +yDEX, +x (all subskills under DEX)*

and so on for each skill, CON/PSI/INT

*where x, y have a max value of 5.

You should only be able to have 2 of the boost spells on you at any one time.

ie.. might have CON and STR boosts on, or STR and PSI, or STR and INT, etc.


Fuck all this "drone booster 1" or "Hazard resist 3" nonsense.

-The current system has too many spells and they are too powerful/unbalancing.

Deflectors/shelters should be weakened.

Damage boost should be severely altered ("removed").

Holy heal type spells could have the heal per tick reduced, but increase the duration.


[edit] oh yes.. and I think there should be a PSI spell that has similar effects to the stealth.

Important: Self-cast only.

-It would make the user disappear from the local list and have a (much) more noticable visual effect than the stealth tools.

-But would still allow the user to fire/be targeted... ie enemy can still get bounding box on you, but you can still attack as well.

-It could also give a small shielding effect against all attack types.

-You wouldn't be able to have deflectors/shelters active at the same time and maybe not even heal spells.

-self cast only spells should automatically remove psi effects that would otherwise prevent it's use.

-(whilst we're at it) more powerful PSI spells should override weaker ones,

eg. holy heal should replace an already active normal heal/ a booster 3 should replace an active booster 1.


****
(Following is probably not practical unless done at start of retail, so it's mearly babble...)

Split the monk class into 2 at character selection. PPU, APU.

Then, it'd be much easier to balance PPU/APU/hybrids + more interesting.

(Monks are supposed to be a big part of the story. .so, meh.)

ie. you'd have Tank/PE/Spy/PPU/APU classes.


1) You could give each monk class the same, or different skill caps.

2) You could give them different xp gain rates on each skill. (eg, might increase PPU xp gain to offset how slow it is.).

3) You could give them class restricted armour (and reduce the power of PSI armour anyway).

4) AND with class specific items you can replace the "ridiculous" PSI implants with proper ones.

-eg, Implants that add a lot to PPU, but subtract some from APU (or vice versa) would be class restricted.

-eg, non-class-specific PSI implants would have moderate gains, but wouldn't subtract from other PSI skills.


You'd end up with "4" types of monks. PPU, PPU biased hybrid, APU biased hybrid and APU.

5) You could make the best APU/PPU spells class restricted.


Of course.. it's a lot easier to only have one monk class and try to make hybrids "practical" by using a big stick.

And of course.. after they implement this, they could split spys into 2 classes as well. One with higher INT, one with higher STR, etc. = more interesting.


Anyway.. this would happen, becasue it would require too much effort, plus there will be enough people whinging to further increase the activation energy.

Roll on neocron 2. :)

[ghandisfury]

I'm just about sick of nerf the PPU monk threads. I know it's not how the thread started, but it just makes me sick how 99% of the comunity are selfish and obtuse hypocrits. Every one of you want a PPU by your side while you are fighting, but if you don't have one, and get owned by someone who does you start a nerf the monk thread. You say they are "unkillable" or "very hard to kill"....what the fuck is our recourse for your attacks? How do we fend off YOUR threat? We rezz our partner so he can attack. This makes you angry.......when in fact the person rezzed is easily killable....yet again rendering the PPU useless.

There are so many ways to make the PPU useless.....yet 99% of you don't want to discover new tactics, or make a more diverse team......you just want to be able to kill ALL people with your capped tank:wtf: ANYTHING ELSE IS UNFAIR!!! I think all monks need a boost. APU with heals and defences, and PPUs with some way of attack. YES they need to be reworked.....but in a MASSIVELY possotive manner, not the constant nerfs that are trolling these forum.

[J a y]

they should add back exotic psi. i liked how reserect and dmg boost were exotic spells back in beta/ early retail. would make reserect whoring at op battles a bit less.

[Sleawer]

I think the monk shouldn't be a player character. It should be a mob, maybe in Regants with the mutants, and the mob boss could be the ppu, which spawns little apu's and buff them :D

[Scikar]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
I'm just about sick of nerf the PPU monk threads. I know it's not how the thread started, but it just makes me sick how 99% of the comunity are selfish and obtuse hypocrits. Every one of you want a PPU by your side while you are fighting, but if you don't have one, and get owned by someone who does you start a nerf the monk thread. You say they are "unkillable" or "very hard to kill"....what the fuck is our recourse for your attacks? How do we fend off YOUR threat? We rezz our partner so he can attack. This makes you angry.......when in fact the person rezzed is easily killable....yet again rendering the PPU useless.

There are so many ways to make the PPU useless.....yet 99% of you don't want to discover new tactics, or make a more diverse team......you just want to be able to kill ALL people with your capped tank:wtf: ANYTHING ELSE IS UNFAIR!!! I think all monks need a boost. APU with heals and defences, and PPUs with some way of attack. YES they need to be reworked.....but in a MASSIVELY possotive manner, not the constant nerfs that are trolling these forum.

Nope. First my only capped char (and my current primary char) is a capped PE. Second, I would rather not have a ppu at my side if my enemy did not have one. I find it utterly stupid that the spies, tanks and PEs on my team are great in a fight with no ppus, but as soon as the enemy has a ppu in their ranks they all become useless. As far as I'm concerned ppus shouldn't be that much harder to kill than another class. Make them sit at the back healing and ressurecting, because that's their damn job. They should not be able to run right through the enemy lines, ressurect their team mate, heal and shield him, then run back with hardly a scratch.

And btw if you knew how to play your class properly you would know that to fend off my attack you parashock me, damage boost me and shout your mates over/shoot me with your assault rifle/uzi/parashock me to death.

[Disturbed021]

Originally posted by Sleawer
I think the monk shouldn't be a player character. It should be a mob, maybe in Regants with the mutants, and the mob boss could be the ppu, which spawns little apu's and buff them :D

Dude that would so f00kin rock!

[kin]

monks need to be removed..but..ey, im not playing anymore so....WHY DID YOU DO IT HIDE?

[Arcadius]

Originally posted by ghandisfury
Every one of you want a PPU by your side while you are fighting,



The only time I want a ppu is when the enemy has one, inwhich case because i NEED ONE to counteract them.


Otherwise I fight alone, stop generalizing thnx.

[Arcadius]

Originally posted by Scikar
As far as I'm concerned ppus shouldn't be that much harder to kill than another class. Make them sit at the back healing and ressurecting, because that's their damn job. They should not be able to run right through the enemy lines, ressurect their team mate, heal and shield him, then run back with hardly a scratch.



AMEN

[Sleawer]

The problem is some people misunderstand "I want or I like" with "I need".

A person not necessary has to like his work, or want to work.. but he "needs" to do, maybe to finally achieve his goal and work where he wants.

[kbmg]

i see 5 solutions



1encourage hybrids, it isnt as effective to have a jack of all trades but its more fun. more fun is more money for kk


2. reworking hybrid posiblities.
A. drop the hybrid penalties just make 2 diferent mental stediness skills this will keep monks from maxing both

B. make a 3rd catigory of spells that wont gimp the apu/ppu of choice. in this put the parashocks and monstersummonings the antibuffs and stuff that doesnt really belong in either apu or ppu
like invisibillity....fireshields...lifedrains...teleports...polymorphs
this catigory will work on the highest apu/ppu score but not a combo encouraging purity

C.or make some spells both apu AND ppu things that blurr the line let it depend on the higher stat but apu heals/buffs would take 2x the level of mst and apu to use for its ppu friend
same with ppus using agressive spells theyd need 120 ppu to use psi attack 1


3 give APUs some agreesive defence spells after all ppus get parashocks and the soul clusters.
ie
life drain... takes hps from enemy gives em to you
Fireshield... rather than reducing damage it zaps melee attackers
buff drain.... sucks buffs off of the oponent

this way there is less temptation to hybrid but draining would be less effective than healing like 1/2 of what its tl equivelent is and the buff drain would give you 1/2 the buffing goodness the opponent has. also you cant use these Apu defencive spells in the inner city

4 make 2 complete monk races. kinda like lightside/darkside jedi
the ppus can depend on Psi-int and the APUs psi-con these will be the 100 stats of course the apus can hve 45 int and the same str dex ect just fooling with those spells gave em a better con and worse int base the PPus on chron and the apus on those mutant preachers



5 attack the acual problem spells with hiden benifits for the oponent. this isnt nerfing its...altering

a. parashocks may slow movement but might make thier defence to spells and force higher due to the parshock inertial interferance so they dont take as much damage. basically turn em from hare into tortise

b. make it so only 1 heal/buff works at a time and a 10-30 second delay while your body recovers from the increased regeneration before another heal can be cast on you

c. make it so healing others drains a % of heath and endurance from the ppu so they have to heal themselves in between healing others. its hard pumping magic like that at range.


Feel free to flame me

[Heavyporker]

THAT'S IT!! OMG....

guys.... what do you think of THAT idea.... that to heal others, PPUs will have to drain off their life and stamina to help them?

Now that will make a lot of PPUs kind of angry, maybe, but it would mean they wouldn't be so massively boosting to other classes...

Man... that's one brilliant idea.

Yeah, and when you get shocked, you naturally would be on the defensive, so yeah, getting parashocked should give something like 5%-10% damage reduction from spells... make it mild enough that parashocking others doesnt fuck everything up for others... plus it would fit more in the PPU's role as being pure defense...

Wow... great idea.

And I agree about a SLIGHT time delay between buffings... like 10-15 seconds so buffspamming can't happen. But I like that I can have health boosts WITH combat boosts, but your idea sounds about right... only ONE buff at a time, which would add greater complexity to the PPU's role... he and his teammates would have to work on deciding what they want... plus its not like tradeskillers will complain about that one. But heals and shelters can work while one has a buff, thats the point, let them work together. It would be silly to have heals/shelters exclude buffs.

Brilliance...

Now, I don't want complete overhaulings of the monk class or have all kinds of class doodads past the powerarmors and spells... that's complicated enough, thank you, I don't want ppu-hybrid armor and so on... Keep it simple for KK, they can't do massive changes, not easily or well, so lets keep it simple.

So let's just tweak the spells to be more specific and have farther-reaching consquences than the upfront damage or bonus.

I however, do rather like the idea of changing MST to Exotic PSI... hmm, yeah. Arcadius had a huge idea about that a while ago... BUT buffs and sheilds and heals and cleansing spells stay PPU... antibuffs stay APU... its just that as you said, the special stuff goes in there, like ressurect, invisibility, spells that straddle both PPU and APU (those aura ideas), levitation, and so on...

[Arcadius]

kbmg I love you.

[Heavyporker]

yeah, arcadius... I liked kbmg's ideas on tweaking things...

you agreed with my detailing out what I thought how kbmg's tweakings would work, or do you have different ideas?

[SypH]

I dont mind being a pure APU. Even when hybrids were possible I was mostly APU with very little in PPU. But you know what really pisses me off? I play a class that specialises in psychic powers, but I cant even use a basic tl3 heal without taking a large hit in my APU effectiveness. It's embarassing having to ask a fucking TANK(!) who is meant to be unable to develop any PSI powers, for a heal or shield. I mean come on! A monk asking a class thats meant to have the mental capacity of a brick to use a spell?!

Sure specialise our class if you insist but at least let us APU's use a basic heal without penalty. Our strength skill is our biggest weakness and as a result we cant carry much with us, but Im forced to lug around a supply of med packs if I go solo hunting, meaning I either leave half the loot I could be taking, or throw away alot of meds and psi boosters and leave myself vunerable.

It's embarassing that my x/37 tank can last longer against fire mobs than my x/53 APU, all thanks to a basic heal, shield and resist.

[Heavyporker]

yeah, syph...


I proposed a while ago that the TL 3 heal at least, but maybe also deflector, and basic resist only require PSI level and MST... thereby ungimping a LOT of apus.

[Disturbed021]

Wow, some really good ideas in here!

I really like the idea of some sort of Drain spell for an APU since they really don't have an affective way of healing themselves.

Maybe a Drain Boost spell.

Would look very similar to a Damage Boost and once cast on a mob or player it lasts a short while (maybe 30 seconds or so).

And then once the APU starts actually doing damage to the mob or player with the drain boost on them they get a certain % of the damage being dealt to the mob back to them.

In other words; APU monkey casts drain boost. Monkey starts shooting mob or player with HL doing 150 points of damage per shot and gets say 10% of the damage dealt back to them.
So every hit of 150 damage gives them back 15 hps.
Would not be automatically added in their health meter but would go up over time like a Heal spell.
So, maybe have a line on the Caster of the spell that shows the drain. And once you start hitting the mob the hps start adding up and get added to your health meter.

So, the more damage dealt the more health you recover.

/edit after thinking about it for a minute 10% seems too high. Maybe base the effectiveness on the % of the spell. Therefore with higher amounts of APU you will drain more. Also, I could see this being put in around TL30 or so and let PEs use it if specd to APU. :D

[kbmg]

also if APUs had more than cast bam cast bam and just picking the top damage spell wether it be funky spells like invisability or psudo healing spells they would do less damage over all as they will be puting mana into other spells this would encourage strategy. so even though nerphers think hybrid or virety makes people stronger if they are able to do something other than hide and shoot they might shoot less.

also they could be subject to the same balencing factors i sugested for ppus.

perhaps damage types could affect a target less and less as it is used. if you st somone on fire another fireball wont be as effective till the first burning wears off a lighning bolt might leave somone polarized for a few moments so say you made it that. the more of the same spell hits a person raises its resistance to that element temporarily. this will encourage APUs to have Different damage types and theyd need to rotate them for best effectiveness. this will make a good strategy more important withoug gimping monks