View Full Version : Delete the Vehicle Use skill
KK went to a lot of effort to make vehicles more useful. Since the patch I have definitely seen more vehicles but they are still a tiny part of the game--mostly you just see bikes or hovertechs.
Who actually uses vehicles to go hunting or for OP fight? How often are vehicles being bought and sold in plaza 1?
The fact is that very few people are willing to gimp their characters in order to drive. Delete the vehicle use skill and release any points that were in the skill. I don’t know any spy that wouldn’t mind having a few more dex points to spend on their primary skill.
If KK did this, I bet you would see vehicles all over the map. People might actually go hunting with them. People would be destroying enemy vehicles on a regular basis. You would see vehicle vs. vehicle chases and fights. The tradeskillers would have to pump out a steady supply of new vehicles. People would have a little more fun in a game that is desperately in need of it.
Ray
(lol...I'm so bored with the game I spend more time on the forums than playing)
I vote yes because I belive anything that could make vehicles used more is a godly idea. It's not like theres much of a class discrimination between vehicles as it is anyway.
[EDIT] Nice first poll!
I voted no.. all things should require a subskill of some sort.. i dont think anyone should be able to drive vehicles.. and vehicles are my major tradekill.....
Heavyporker
23-08-03, 00:20
agreed - I get jobs for driving people around quite often, and it's in keeping since I'm NExT... the Vehicle faction...
I don't think that just any old yahoo should be able to drive vecs.
It takes skill and knowledge to handle the more advanced vehicles. Now, agreed, the Vec requirements might be a little high, in my opinion, since I'm an APU monk and I like having some decent speed...
But they mean there will be MUCH more vehicular involvement.
Man, I mean, have you ever taken a two-seater out in the wastelands and felt the wind on your face, as you wound aruond the hills and flew down the tall mountainsides?
Haven't you felt the thrill of craftily dodging colossal monsters, only to have something slam against the side of your rig and you say a prayer of thanks for the solid armor?
Haven't you ever felt a thrill at the sight of a Rhino when it was at your side, tearing though the creatures that dared threaten you? Haven't you felt the tingle of fear when one of THEM lumbers against you, their turret inexorably spewing fire at your poor meatsack?
sigh...
Originally posted by Kasumi
and vehicles are my major tradekill.....
O_o
bibliotequa
23-08-03, 00:41
oh i thought you meant delete vehicles, well delete the skill.... yeah go ahead, instead go to NeXT driving school (and the th driving school i guess, for anti city factions) and go through a class, just read signs in the wall, and speak to npcs giving you the lessons, and then take a quiz, if you pass with at least 70% then you are qualified to drive vehicles, maybe you get a license, which you show to the Vehicle vendors if you wanna buy a vehicle. But maybe have int as the only req
Heavyporker
23-08-03, 06:55
good lord, are people actually considering this?! Right, like any old yahoo can just plop himself in the pilot's seat of a glider and go swoop around the cliffs...
hey! I know! after making driving vecs reqless, make gunning them reqless! its brilliant!
I can see the elimination of the vehicle use skill for except for maybe the bike, but eveything past that IMO needs skill.
Heavy is right, not everyone can fly, or drive well. So in life - so in game.
Disturbed021
23-08-03, 07:20
add driving gloves for each vehicle inplace of the key. It would have to be implanted (so you cant pull it out quickly and stick it back in quickly).
Here's an idea... how about make vehicles have only Int, Dex and High Tech as requirements... this would make sense and it would put some kind of req without gimping a major skill (unless you're going Low Tech but I've never seen a Low Tech spy).
Originally posted by bibliotequa
oh i thought you meant delete vehicles, well delete the skill.... yeah go ahead, instead go to NeXT driving school (and the th driving school i guess, for anti city factions) and go through a class, just read signs in the wall, and speak to npcs giving you the lessons, and then take a quiz, if you pass with at least 70% then you are qualified to drive vehicles, maybe you get a license, which you show to the Vehicle vendors if you wanna buy a vehicle. But maybe have int as the only req
That wouldn't make much sense considering you would need to take classes and pass an exam in order to have a gun license :angel:
Heavyporker
23-08-03, 10:31
I say absolutely not to vecs needing T-C.
I agree, they shouldn't have reqs.
No don't delte the skill.
I don't want to see tanks driving round in Rhinos or flying gliders when DoY comes out.
Originally posted by Judge
No don't delte the skill.
I don't want to see tanks driving round in Rhinos or flying gliders when DoY comes out.
Why not? Just curious. Tank hater?
voted yes...as if it even matters...the only thing that would even catch their eye is if 99% of the votes were yes...which right now it's a little closer to even...
vehicles play an extremly small role in the game...taking away the vehicle use skill would give everyone an option to use them...then you might see more vehicles used...but having to kill points in VHC just sucks(mostly becuz vehicles arent worth it)...especially when the newer vehicles are having higher reqs...
Why not? Just curious. Tank hater?
Tanks don't have the intelligence to drive Rhinos or APCs. That should be reserved for gimped PEs or Spys. Also gliders should be Spy only.
bah, forget class restrictions.
Keep the stat restrictions except for the bike. It takes skill to operate any vehicle, and anyone who's willing to learn generally can.
I think that Ghostly said it perfectly. Vehicles play a very small role in the game. It would just add fun.
About KK and there 99% vote thingy. I would like to see a detailed reason as to why those NO votes came about. I think people just can't comprahend an MMORPG item without requirements! I say remove the skill all the way, and call for an official more mature poll, now that we have had time to think about it. (no offence pollstarter)
I could see the reqs being removed from the basic bike maybe... but no way the higher end vehicles.
Originally posted by Judge
Tanks don't have the intelligence to drive Rhinos or APCs. That should be reserved for gimped PEs or Spys. Also gliders should be Spy only.
GIMPED SPIES EXACTLY!
Thats why nobody uses vehicles! Plus if it's a roleplay reason you are looking for then perhaps N.E.X.T. systems develop an interface linked directly to the subconsious, and no intellegence is required to opperate the vehicles.
Look at it this way, A spy who is completely rat assed drunk can STILL opperate a Tank efficently.
At least remove the skill but keep the INT req!!!!!!
Dade Murphey
23-08-03, 12:33
I voted yes on this...I can see getting rid of the skill...I know very few people who actually put many points into it as it is...I think though all the vehicles should have just Int and Dex reqs...it would still balance out so that not everyone is driving everything...and plust Vehicles are so underused really by anyone who wants a good character that it would make them a bit more signifact...
i voted yes, and i think the license thing would be sweet, but licenses i like, my idea though is that you have to aquire diffrent licenses, to aquire the next license, you have to have the license before it, so you can't just skip around :)
D Class: Single Person Vehicles
C Class: 2 Person Vehicles
B Class: 3 Person Vehicles and Vehicles with mounted guns
A Class: 4+ Person Vehicles, and Heavy Ground Vehicles
A+ Class: Basic Light Aerial
S Class: Combat Light Aerial
SS Class: Heavy Aerial
licenses would be a fuckin nice idea to put in...but will they do it?...fuck no...it gives *SOME* people a goal in neocron...we cant have that
Originally posted by gostly
licenses would be a fuckin nice idea to put in...but will they do it?...fuck no...it gives *SOME* people a goal in neocron...we cant have that
So true....
[EDIT]
Epics worked out to be quite popular. That gives peopel a goal. I just wish they would give people a reward for having uber high faction sympathy....
Cruzbroker
23-08-03, 13:43
If u remove the VHC skill, let the INT (or and DEX) be.. so not everyone can drive... Tanks have a place in vehicles.. The turret..
MAKE THE VEHICLES MORE USEFUL
Increase speed (alot), shields etc..
I would do the License even if the vhcls suck.. It's just fun do something than just hunt n stuff..
and still:
Why does every character have to be über?
Gimp it or not, it's ur choice, it has its advantages..
Why does every character have to be über?
Gimp it or not, it's ur choice, it has its advantages..
what are you kidding?...you think people play neocron to have fun?...lol...their's only a few that do and will play around with their skills...the rest well...ya know...but really can you blame them?...their's nuthin but pvp in neocron after you get high leveled
ohh no not again - dont we have this poll a month ago or was that in the german forum :)
defenetly _NO_
because
this is a RPG and they are based on skills. its not a FPS even it contain some elements of it.
what would u think will happen when there is no VHC skill - ppl will put it to R-C or T-C. just another step down to NeoStrike :p
what would u think will happen when there is no VHC skill - ppl will put it to R-C or T-C. just another step down to NeoStrike
think you missed the point of everything said...people dont put anything into VHC...they already put it into "R-C or T-C"...
my pe is actually quite gimped, cause i seek to drive, remove the skill, add licenses, adds a better rpg aspect than the horrendus crap we have called the vhc stat
I vote yes.
I dislike the concept of "learn to drive a car, can't learn to use a rifle/pistol/recycle device/run around/fix things as effectively".
But then I'm not keen on the entire neocron rules/game system :p
And I'd still not use my character's vehicles much (one of my chars has actually taken vehicle use) until they become more reliable. I went on yet another journey today that ended with me being spawned several feet above the ground, a zone away from my vehicle, on top of a cliff that my non-combat spy could barely survive the drop down from and upon getting to the bottom of I was attacked by multiple fire mobs - the very mobs I was driving a hoverbike to speed past safely.
Maybe they should make a "Drivers Suit" which only spys could wear but PEs could wear the level one suit.
Level one 90 dex- Use of ER Combat Chaincraft , ER Wheeler Speedbike , ER Chaincraft, ER Assault Bike, ER Hovertec, ER Combat Hovertec, HH Wheeler, HH Combat Wheeler, HH4x4 Chaincraft , Reveler-Chaincraft.
Level two 115 dex- Use of above and Scorpion Trike, AT Troop Carrier , Heavy Assault Scorpion Trike, Rhino4x4 Chaincraft.
Level three 120 dex- Use of all vehicles including DOY flying vehicles.
I think maybe it should have some + and - to things but this is a rough idea.
Now you may say "OMG WTF? I GOT TO HAVE 120 DEX I BE GIMPED!?!?1" But vehicles will have a VERY powerful role, as of now just an apc saves Legion many pains with better movement and hop in and heal :D . Imagine the enemy not even seeing you as your heavy bomber blows the shit out of the OP or gank fest when your heavy carrier comes in with quad cannoning annihilating everything. Then before your enemy can even get back on their feet your monks, pes, spys, (tanks too if they don't see the guns anymore use). Jump out and just finish everything off. The doy flying vehicles are going to be a major asset if and when they come out.
nah, licenses are still better, this is neocron, not tron. even though the two strike some amazing similarities.
Just make INT and/or DEX req on the vehicles...
Then only Spies could use the gliders and so an...
Its hard to get up to 100 in skill to that and be useful in the fields... Well then you are only a taxi driver and how useful is that on pluto ? :D
making the gliders spy only would be wrong
Originally posted by Pill
making the gliders spy only would be wrong
With theyre reqs from test server, they already are spy only aint they?
Originally posted by gostly
think you missed the point of everything said...people dont put anything into VHC...they already put it into "R-C or T-C"...
and that should be rewarded with deleting a skill so ppl that LIKE to be a driver should play another game???????
so why do we have research skill ??? i think we should rremove that too. so we have another 150 points for Weaponlore. make BP buyable so we can save time searching a Resarcher and go straight to constructer.
hey, and we lose the dangerous situation of exchanging rareparts when they handed out to a researcher .....
Neostrike here we go .......
Say it with me now
Lie-Sense-Ses
Not a hard concept.
think you missed the point of everything said...people dont put anything into VHC...they already put it into "R-C or T-C"...
I have a little over 100 vehicle skill so how do everyone put all tre skills into RC and TC? i am also a pistol spy.... vehicle use is a tradeskill like all the rest.. for most this isnt about removing the skill because no one uses vehicles its because people want to use there extra 60 or so points they had to use on VHC use into there RC or PC.. if they removed VHC use they might as well delete Research skill and construct skill since there as well wasteing points.. VHC use is a tradeskill.. if youwant to use it than you sacrifice points to use it..
elric, not if your character is driving only, and still then, they aren't if you sacrifice a few points here and there
I voted no, but i would like to see requirments lowered somewhat perhaps by 25-50%. Adding a driver license would be cool, doin a few quests, blackmail npc's to get it etc. :)
I voted yes as I need a damn vehicle!! its tres dangerous running around the wastelands, trying to complete epics...i was going to implant that vehicle use implant and put a few points into vhc but i dunno now....free up the vehicles!!! oh yeh, am a weak assed spy.
free up the vehicles!!! oh yeh, am a weak assed spy
No, thats your problem because you didn't think ahead.
LoM it if you want it.
If you don't, walk.
Yes am well aware of this, it was just that the other day i was strolling out to catlock bay and sum android thing with a plasma rifle killed me in like one shot....i'll just keep my eyes peeled next time and take the long route round!
lol you got owned by a y. rep, vhcs don't defend much against them, unless you're in a tank, this KK, is why the hell jeeps need freaking doors.
Whats a y. rep? it was a badass anyway, i thought i had gone around it but it sprinted around and shot me in the back! dammit, the storm bots r hard ass well...
Instead of removing it, how about lowering the skill or making
it 1/2 the skill to drive.
Tanks can't drive rhinos because it's a drug ballod to do so for int.
I repair, recycle, have barely 83 AGL (with imps) and 86 TC
(i use hcboost1 to use doom beamer). I can't afford to take
points out of any for Vehicle Use, i can afford half the hovertech
VHC req though.
Yeh, I like ''FBI''s idea! Halfing would work out quite well, I think it'd be cool to have dropships like in halo...op wars wud rock with them in!
Originally posted by msdong
so why do we have research skill ??? i think we should rremove that too. so we have another 150 points for Weaponlore. make BP buyable so we can save time searching a Resarcher and go straight to constructer.
hey, and we lose the dangerous situation of exchanging rareparts when they handed out to a researcher .....
At the risk of confused outrage, that's kinda a good idea :p
Researching at the moment is one of the single most tedious timesinks in the game - it's like progress quest without the gameplay.
But, I suppose, that's another thread entirely.
i dont see the problem some ppl have.
if i want to use the best weapon i need 100+ in its skill.
u even need MUCh MORE.
i u want to use the best VHC u need 100+.
hell dont tell me u cant affort these shitty 20 points on VHC.
edit: i better like rifels whould be better @ half skill :P
hmm
should be, like, if u got 0 skill and drive a trooper (or any other car)- u would go slow..have trouble like turning around and shit....with 50, u could actually drive it good, with 62 ( its current skill need - for a trooper ) it would be 'perfect'
Originally posted by RuButt
hmm
should be, like, if u got 0 skill and drive a trooper (or any other car)- u would go slow..have trouble like turning around and shit....with 50, u could actually drive it good, with 62 ( its current skill need - for a trooper ) it would be 'perfect'
like @0 i can use [put weapon here] only in close combat @50 i can use a PE @ half range/damage ...???
man i would get my self a moonstriker or something :p as a spy
Roc-a-fella
23-08-03, 19:24
i think there still has to be SOME kind of restriction
hmm why should all classes use all veh? by the same argument i hate tanks as i dont think they should be able to use holy lightning o_O Veh are ment to be a benifit to spies in my opionion and i dont see why that should be taken away. All classes can use a veh of some sort to get about, but the good veh for combat etc should be reserved for specific classes.
I think veh have been well thought out and are fine as they are, this is a rpg each class gets its benefits, if you want to use certain items you should have to be a certain class.
Tanks are dam good. There no joke anymore they hit hard and take one hell of a beating and just wait till filers come out.
dude, do you people not read any previous posts?
Originally posted by Pill
dude, do you people not read any previous posts?
NO not really im asuming there KIM :o
ANyway vehicales are dam good why should they be free for all to use?
read previous posts, then reply :), as you see, we have already thought of ingenious ways to prevent this.
Heavyporker
23-08-03, 21:17
MY god... no.... no....
This has gotten all crazy...
Look... Let me put it this way.... One doesn't *HAVE* to be of a specific class or put about 300 points into a subskill to be good at it....
Driving, hacking, poking, and repair have the status of "minor" tradeskills (not saying that they are any less important) when compared to research and construction, considering that one needs less focus on skilling for the first three at them to be good at them as opposed to having to be almost totally dedicated as in the last two...
Thats good - you know why? Because then more people can pick up the "minor" tradeskills, and thus, said skills would be more widely available. And just as well, because when you're in the wastelands, you definitely want to have either someone capable of repair or poking rather than construction or research... one could say that skilled constructers and researchers are supposed to be kept safe in the cities.
My NExT monk has the capability to drive all first generation vehicles, and he's good at it - he takes driving jobs all the time... and thats in keeping with his role in NExT - the vehicle/transportation corporate faction.
THe VEC skill is the indication of the time he spent to "learn" the skill of driving complex vehicles. And yes, if he wishes to use NExT's more advanced vehicles when they come out for public consumption, he will have to make decisions as to whenther or not he wants to be able to drive them.
Look, let me put it this way - PEs and GenTanks can be good droners, but they won't be anywhere as good as a Spy droner... And still monks can drone.
PEs can make for fair PPUs, but they won't be anywhere as good as a pure PPU monk or even a high level hybrid monk. Hell, even spies and tanks can use some PPU abilities.
PEs can take up heavy weapons and melee weapons and be dangerous with them, even though they are the "supposed" sole province of GenTanks.
Tanks can take up pistolero-ing and rifling, and be proficent in them, even though they won't *really* compete against PEs and Spies.
I mean, hell, even GenTanks can take up hacking or poking and even do well at them - I know some GenTanks that hack.
The good thing about "minor" skills is that even classes that wouldn't normally take up such skills can take them and be fairly proficient at them. THAT is the great legacy of Neocron. Yes, patches lately have greatly encouraged specialization and perhaps even greater stress about staying centered in your "supposed" combat capability roles. But Neocron's still flexible.
That's why I am adamant against either the total statlessness of driving vehicles or pushing the requirements up to insane levels or using some sort of fancy-schmacy licensing system or making special driving gauntlets or suits.
Even with the current high requirements that I have heard of the new NExT vehicles, my NExT monk can still drive them - he just has to make hard choices.... The wonderful technologies of Biotech and pharmacopteria of ProtoPharm makes that possible.
That should remind you that even factions do not stand on their own.
to hack it will gimp our weapons, ive lomed all my lore inot HCK
and i could barely use speed gun let alone anything higher so i
enjoyed the warbot hacking and hovercraft hacking while it lasted
because its so boring not being able to use any other weapon
with moderate speed + range.
melee is a joke and next patch it's even worse, people should
talk about melee as if it were resist psi, because it will be that
useless soon.
that's all i have to say about that.
Cruzbroker
23-08-03, 23:07
Originally posted by gostly
what are you kidding?...you think people play neocron to have fun?...lol...their's only a few that do and will play around with their skills...the rest well...ya know...but really can you blame them?...their's nuthin but pvp in neocron after you get high leveled
I have a MC-PC-Tank.. One guy laughed at me when I told that to him, wonder why... Eh, oh yeah... It's ur work to play this game...
On vehicles it would work to make lowest vhcs usable right from the start, but u would suck big time if u don't have the reqs...
(put the bike req 15 so spy can use it with vhc chip 3)..
Originally posted by Cruzbroker
...
(put the bike req 15 so spy can use it with vhc chip 3)..
you forget about that spys never use a VHC3 if he can use another implant.
all that licence stuff would be based on money wich means nothin' in neocron. everyone who can affort a tank can use it.
Dade Murphey
23-08-03, 23:32
the Liscense idea is a good one...different liscense you have to get for the different types of vehicles etc...if they still left all the reqs for the vehicles based off of Dex and Int you wouldn't have everyone driving all the stuff...Spies would be the only ones driving the gliders and such...which if I remember right is how it is anyway
still wrong people, you can use at least a scout, if not advanced scout, if you gimp your stats enough as a pe
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 00:12
I dont like the idea of licenses... the VEC skill is your licenses, lets not make it more complicated....
and to the one talking about gimping weplore to get hack... thats what I am talking about... it was your CHOICE to be able to hack, at the cost of your aiming... just as it was my CHOICE to be able to drive, at the cost of my runspeed.
and to the one talking about how only spies should be able to pilot gliders... even monks can drone, but they have to gimp themselves to try to be good at it offensively... but that was their CHOICE... if a monk wished to pilot a glider at their current reqs, then he would have to make the CHOICE to, at a cost... the thing is, that the CHOICE is available, okay?!?!
let's not make driving vecs any more complicated or harder, having to keep them loaded with ammo and eventually fuel will make it hard enough for those that choose driving as a skill.
Dade Murphey
24-08-03, 01:47
Originally posted by Heavyporker
and to the one talking about how only spies should be able to pilot gliders... even monks can drone, but they have to gimp themselves to try to be good at it offensively... but that was their CHOICE... if a monk wished to pilot a glider at their current reqs, then he would have to make the CHOICE to, at a cost... the thing is, that the CHOICE is available, okay?!?!
a monk (in keeping with your xample) would have to put EVERYTHING into drive to have the skill high enough to drive a glider...but that would severly gimp thier agl (leaving them with 4 or 5pts tops)...which most I've met keep high to make up for a low Ath so as to get more outta thier con points...considering that anymore this game is all about how to least gimp your character I can't imagine anyone doing this to a monk, a PE, a tank or a spy...just to be able to use all the tech rifles well I have to put all but about 4 pts into RC and TC...that gives me a whopping base agl of 4...just wanting to be able to use all the guns effectively I can't even afford the points for a speed bike...so I'm totally behind finding another means to dictate what you can drive...or lowering the requirements on combat things...I still believe they need to find another way to do tech weapons...give them thier own thing so in dex it would look like RC, TC RC, PC, TC PC...but they'd have to do alot of fleshing out all the weapons and adding more...so I don't see that happening...but as it is there's alot of people who're gonna be missing out on using alot of cool vehicles because it's stupid to gimp your characters combat abilities that way in a game where PvP is all you have to do in the end
Tech combat.. now there's a skill that should just be removed...
Dade Murphey
24-08-03, 02:02
gah...I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks so...it's such a waste...does nothing to add to your ability to use Tech weapons...just a retarded prerequisite
Either TC should be removed, or Tech Weapons should have some sort of advantage vs non tec.
I don't think it even makes sense thematically either (never mind how annoying it is sinking points into it)
Rifle combat (or pistol, or heavy) covers the use of rifles. The more complicated and difficult to use rifles require a higher degree in training in the use of rifles. Why is loading an energy pack instead of a clip of bullets considered outside the scope of 'training in the use of rifles'?
I'd say r-c, p-c and h-c already cover the idea of needing superior training to use tech weapons - maybe start the lowest tech weapons a little higher to reflect that (ie, lowest laser be about tl 35 rather than 15). t-c is just another artificial feature designed to reduce what we can do with our characters.
If you deleted the vehicle use skill, and everyone could drive, how often do you think you would see vehicles at an OP fight?
Not very often if you asked me. Vehicles still suck. Their clanmates would be yelling at them to get the hell out of that dumb vehicle and do some real damage.
This change would, however, let all of us that can't drive have a little more fun. You would definitely see more people hunting mobs with vehicles.
If VHC were to remain as a skill then it should be something that a player could specialize in. A spy with 180+ in VHC would be able to drive a vehicle that moved faster, had better armor, and did more damage than somone with 62 VHC. Unfortunatley, this would require a completely new "class" of players and all the balancing that it entails.
Ray
Originally posted by RayBob
Not very often if you asked me. Vehicles still suck. Their clanmates would be yelling at them to get the hell out of that dumb vehicle and do some real damage.
You're absolutely right.
the only vhc i would ever see being used, are the bombers and advanced assaults whne they come, sheerly due to their aerial advantange.
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 09:57
well, tech rifles for one do energy damage... for another they would have entirely different controls and have to be repeatedly calibrated (think of this as comparable to keeping the non-tech projectile weapons cleaned)... so T-C makes sense...
but aye, T-C should give slight bonuses for actually having it, then spies would have an easier time capping tech weapons, meaning they could choose to distrubute their DEX points into other skills...
and as to whoever said that monks would have only 4 or so AGL points left after speccing to the 85 that gliders currently require...
remember there are vec implants... and that using vecs means you don't NEED agl to move around... and my monk has 62 VEC and still has pretty decent AGL... and he also has like 30ish in recycling AND remote control ( did I mention I drone?)
now if I wanted to have my monk fly a glider, I would just decide to give up my 30 or so in recycling to get like 15 - 20 more points into VEC, easily putting me into range of the glider... well, the scout glider at least, but hey! only 55 H-C you say? Well, lesse... I can give up what force resist I have and shave my transport (hey, PvPer APUs usually choose to majorly gimp their transport in favor of force resist, so why not me in favor of H-C) and add to my 17 that I already have in H-C (hey, the street model grenade launcher makes those "kill bugs" missions a LOT more fun, I will tell you.
So it's entirely possible... now I would have a strange set-up, certainly, but hey! It could actually be feasble, and at the very least, be entertaining to work with for a while.
Being capable of using something doesn't mean total gimpage to the point of being useless, its just that many would view it as being lamed in PvP capability... but hey! not everyone of us play just for PvP... PvP's just part of the experience, but its not the be all end all of Neocron...
and I don't really know about vehicles being that gimped in combat... they seem as if their weapons should be used at range, and if the opponents get too close, well, move off and keep at range... the armor is there for a reason, as well as being in a team... if the team is yelling at you to do more damage, maybe you better check your vehicular tactics...
and oh, just a tip to your team... if the other guys are shooting at you at range, well... just hide behind the vec(s) and let it shoot for your team.
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 09:57
well, tech rifles for one do energy damage... for another they would have entirely different controls and have to be repeatedly calibrated (think of this as comparable to keeping the non-tech projectile weapons cleaned)... so T-C makes sense...
but aye, T-C should give slight bonuses for actually having it, then spies would have an easier time capping tech weapons, meaning they could choose to distrubute their DEX points into other skills...
and as to whoever said that monks would have only 4 or so AGL points left after speccing to the 85 that gliders currently require...
remember there are vec implants... and that using vecs means you don't NEED agl to move around... and my monk has 62 VEC and still has pretty decent AGL... and he also has like 30ish in recycling AND remote control ( did I mention I drone?)
now if I wanted to have my monk fly a glider, I would just decide to give up my 30 or so in recycling to get like 15 - 20 more points into VEC, easily putting me into range of the glider... well, the scout glider at least, but hey! only 55 H-C you say? Well, lesse... I can give up what force resist I have and shave my transport (hey, PvPer APUs usually choose to majorly gimp their transport in favor of force resist, so why not me in favor of H-C) and add to my 17 that I already have in H-C (hey, the street model grenade launcher makes those "kill bugs" missions a LOT more fun, I will tell you.
So it's entirely possible... now I would have a strange set-up, certainly, but hey! It could actually be feasble, and at the very least, be entertaining to work with for a while.
Being capable of using something doesn't mean total gimpage to the point of being useless, its just that many would view it as being lamed in PvP capability... but hey! not everyone of us play just for PvP... PvP's just part of the experience, but its not the be all end all of Neocron...
and I don't really know about vehicles being that gimped in combat... they seem as if their weapons should be used at range, and if the opponents get too close, well, move off and keep at range... the armor is there for a reason, as well as being in a team... if the team is yelling at you to do more damage, maybe you better check your vehicular tactics...
and oh, just a tip to your team... if the other guys are shooting at you at range, well... just hide behind the vec(s) and let it shoot for your team.
Theres is no discussion on this matter: A PE or spy CAN NOT do ANY vehicle skill without gimpimg themselves, thats all there is to it. YES, even 12 for the chainbike is gimpage. They need ever go damn point they have in agil, rifle/pistol and tc. even without tc i cant spare.
Dade Murphey
24-08-03, 10:20
Originally posted by Heavyporker
and as to whoever said that monks would have only 4 or so AGL points left after speccing to the 85 that gliders currently require...
well if I remember right, unless it's been changed...it has been a bit since I was on the test server, the biggest glider required a tl100-101 vhc skill...the vhc interface 1, the only one a monk could use for xample gives only +5vhc...I don't know xactly what the gliders all sit at...but last I saw the biggest glider was around 101...soooo...that means the monk would still have to put practically ALL of his pts into vhc...sure...he'd have what? ruffly 30pts left over...still pretty low...would still have to gimp his Con by putting more pts into Ath to make up for the low Agl...a spy would be stuck using the PE...possibly not really gonna take the time doing the math though he'd be able to use the Vhc 3...but would take a nice little hit to Ath...a PE...well...the poor bastards a gimp for life...vhc and tc are crap skills...things that could use a far more creative solution...or the game needs a bit of tweaking downwards on the req lvl...as it is, it's spec or die...
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 10:20
then don't drive vecs, VetteroX, that's your choice. PEs can be excellent drivers, plus they have the advantage of having a load of transport past putting in the 55 H-C....
you made the choice of being a front line fighter PE, dependant on having as much AGL as you can have while fulfulling the requirements to use your weapon... that was your CHOICE...
leave it to other types of PEs to find their proficiency in VECs and still be able fighters...
turn from the bloody path of being a pistol PE... come to the sanctuary of armored vehicles and the freedom of gliders... come on, vettero... you know you will love it, and laugh at the foot-trudging land-bound peons that have to depend on inch-thin frail armors and tiny weapons to keep safe...
feel the power inherent in just turning the massive turret of the rhino... feel the rush of the air dancing past you as you drive in a red car... feel thrill of leaping off tall mountainsides and agilely dodging trees and buildings on your wings... cast off your fear of change and your fear of inferiority... there is nothing less in being a driver and a pilot... your world merely changes... come to the embrace of metal and hydraulics and levers... come to the love, vetterox....
edit - you posted before I saw it, dade...
WHY IS IT THAT EVERYONE ASSUMES YOU NEED TO HOLD A TINYASS WEAPON TO BE VIABLE?!?! Shit, thats why there are COMBAT VEHICLES! You merely make a choice to dedicate yourself to vecs if you want to use the top level vehicles... you forget that DEX points can be put elsewhere and still be useful...
and I have iterated many times that its a CHOICE! it doesnt always mean total gimpage, its just means that you have tailored yourself to do better in specific situations, and its not like no-one in PvP isnt tailoring themselves to specific situations if you know what I mean, eh?
Heavy Porker you sound pretty much against this. Could you list the reasons with clear statements and bullet points? I find it hard to see all the reasons why because there seems to be a lot of them scattered about this post. I don't think unrealsim alone is reason enough to not want this happening, after all we are talking No-Toilet City-Central here!
Dade Murphey
24-08-03, 10:28
get out there a fight the cs wielding tank on a gatling (is that what they shoot) hover-tec...those bitches rotate so slowly that it or you would be dead before the cs guy...the ground vehicles with guns are all well and good...but what about the people who aren't on lvl ground with you...and the bombers are all well and good but they'll blow up as easily as anything else...and last I knew they were a bitch to control...
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 10:29
Fine benjie...
let it be said - I *do* like the idea of dropping any requirement for that blue bike - the slow-ass frail first level vehicle, as it would be the "noob" bike. but in general -
Dropping VEC requirement would -
* Eliminate driving as a viable tradeskill - people do make money off driving, me among them.
* Detract from the atmosphere of it being necessary to actually "train" to be able to take up something... By this, I mean it would be similiar to guns and spells needing no requirements to use.
* Would it make the current situation concerning vehicles markedly different? I think not.
Can't think of how to distill my arguement any further into logical bullet points... I got rather "poetical" in previous arguements
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 10:41
damn, you're refreshing this page even as I type, aren't you, Dade? Nice to know you're hanging on my words :)
Well - Dade - I would think that it was obvious that using vehicles in combat, as opposed to merely transport or exploration, requires different tactics, either against single targets or against teams...
I would think that with my hoverbike's greater top-end speed, I would do strafing runs against said CS tank - basically come at him from afar, aiming as I close in, and when in range, open up with the cannon, and zoom past, and once out of range or behind a protective hill , come about and repeat the tactic - because for one - one with the bike's speed would be really hard to hit, especially when you're in close at that speed - go ahead - try to do that even with an unarmed hoverbike, and two - never, with open vehicles, stand in one spot and shoot.
anyone gunning a jeep turret knows how dangerous that is, and anyone that has driven past powerful mobs in a bike or two-seater or jeep know that the vehicle itself doesn't protect you (very much if at all)
Dade... go experiment with vehicular tactics.. I think that you will get the hang of reacting differently to situations when you're in a vehicle than being on foot... you have to really THINK, and analyze the sitation...
Combat vehicles would never do at OP fights all on their own - after all, in most OPs you can't take vecs into them (some, yes, but, ooh, so many OPs vec-inacessible), and just about everyone knows you can't aim shit at targets that has moved in close to the vehicle (see - the vehicle's body is the turret's blind spot), so you need teamwork to effectively utilize combat vehicles - keeping a sqaud near the vecs to engage any targets that have moved in close so the vecs can fall back and continue firing at said targets, and vecs can provide covering fire as your main on-foot battle group moves in near to the objective or such, and the larger vecs can even provide cover to your teammates to hide behind if your team comes under heavy fire... you will learn, if you would just dedicate some time to the vehicles...
I think that then you would agree wholeheartedly with me that vecs require skill to use, and that the VEC skill would reflect your ability to use the vecs, having taken the time and effort to skill yourself up thus...
Originally posted by Heavyporker
well, tech rifles for one do energy damage... for another they would have entirely different controls and have to be repeatedly calibrated (think of this as comparable to keeping the non-tech projectile weapons cleaned)... so T-C makes sense...
See, to my mind the difference is not sufficient to warrant an entirely new skill - the increased r-c required to use them already covers those differences. If anything, most settings I've seen energy weapons (besides experimental prototypes) tend to need *less* maintenance than regular ones. No moving parts and all that - you just slap in an energy pack/clip/whatever, aim, and pull the trigger.
Besides the rares, the only low tech above 44 are gatlins - and only one of those isn't considered 'tech'. Yet any weapon above 44 still needs more r-c to use - what exactly is that r-c representing? To my mind, it's the knowledge required to use these higher tech and higher powered weapons - the maintenance, cleaning, 'controls' (though I don't see what controls even the high-tech have.. it's not like Star Trek where you have power settings), and the quirks of each particular model. All that is covered by the rifle skill imo, since there's not a lot else it *can* be covering (weapon lore is the main skill for aiming, after all). Replace r-c for p-c or h-c as your favourite gun type dictates.
I'd also suggest that even maintenance isn't represented much by r-c.. repair represents it more, since without repair your weapon will stop working after continued use.
please, eliminating vhc skill would just mean you'd have to learn another way to drive, that would be quite costly :/
Heavy, you said you have 65 vhc, 30 recycling, AND a decent agility? What's your agility?
Heavyporker
24-08-03, 21:30
eh, I forget... and as luck would have it, I can't go into the game and check...
but I think it was around 40 - 50 AGL (including the foot implant)
decent enough in my eyes.
maybe keep the skill but have the cheapest vehicals not need it like bikes and the non gunned 4x4s get people hooked so they know if they even wanna bother with the skill. maybe alow bikes in the city.
tanks and the higher ranking vehicals need more skill to run
but there should be at least 1 skillless vehical they are prohibitally expencive as it is so i doubt everyone will be running around with em. and im sure people will trade up for more speed more power fast .
maybe make a in city vehicle like rolerblades or skateboards that is either free or only takes 1-5 skill points and make it much cheaper to buy/make
Heavyporker
25-08-03, 14:39
oh, and arc, didnt notice, but there's a TEENY typo in your post where you said I had 65 VEC... currently 62 VEC is needed to drive all first generation vecs, and thats what I have.
Yeah, only 3 ponits off, but that's significant enough.
Dribble Joy
25-08-03, 14:59
Keep vehicle skill, I agree with the porker of things heavy.
T-C, now that does piss me off. Reduce or remove it from weapons, keep it on gadgets, eg. Stealth.
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