View Full Version : PPU PA - Resist Force
Kendo Averly
16-08-03, 06:40
O_o There's such a huge Reist force hit with this. Not to mention reducing Con levels.... which reduces piercing resist apparently, or more resist force...
So that leaves me with very little resist force... PA2 has -20 resist force, which reduces me to near 9 ... just because I want to carry a respectable amount around... and some ammunition ;P
But still, feels quite a large hit... you lose piercing due to removing the vest for the monk PA too...
Just a little rant. Feels a bit wrong that even with full heal, and heal sanctum I'm destroyed in seconds... my shelter and deflector damages are around 400s for def' and high 300s for shelter. Can't remember specific numbers.
CryptoChronic
16-08-03, 06:42
PA doesnt subtract resist force last time i checked o_0 ... its probbaly your exp psi cont 3 that is subtracting the resist force........ on my pure ppu i dont use exp cont 3 and i also just have enough transport to get by..... and i do great against pierc/force weapons with pa2 on
There's a - to resist force on it? I didn't know that.
even if it does, who cares about a measily 8 dmg from a full
burst of a speed gun if that.
pffft
PA2 simply has no force resist, there is no MINUS force resist. Holy spirit vest gives +19 force I Think, I think that's what he meant by -20.
SigmaDraconis
16-08-03, 11:05
ONOZ welll I guess youll just have to rely on yur measly holy deflector and heal eh..
MjukisDjur
16-08-03, 12:18
so compensate for the loss then... :)
i duno if it has a resi force malus or not, if it has tho, its quite correct imo... monks and resist force... pft, wheredo you come from? :) monks have ALOT of energy and shit resistance... but nearly none force orpiercing.... its their armor. allways been like that.
Originally posted by Arcadius
PA2 simply has no force resist, there is no MINUS force resist. Holy spirit vest gives +19 force I Think, I think that's what he meant by -20.
Originally posted by Kendo Averly
So that leaves me with very little resist force... PA2 has -20 resist force, which reduces me to near 9 ... just because I want to carry a respectable amount around... and some ammunition ;P
But still, feels quite a large hit... you lose piercing due to removing the vest for the monk PA too...
Read again. :)
VVerevvolf
16-08-03, 16:14
Monks havin' to little resis against force weapons http://www.boardy.de/images/smilies/lachtot.gif
crypto is righti its your imps. It freaked me out when it happened to me too. :)
Dribble Joy
16-08-03, 17:01
Even APUs are immune to fire/energy/xray, you want to give them force/piercing too?
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Even APUs are immune to fire/energy/xray, you want to give them force/piercing too?
Sure, so everyone will be playing monks o_O
Kendo Averly
16-08-03, 17:56
PA2 has -20 resist force, which reduces me to near 9
Ahem, yes, I was wrong, I meant one of my implants. Sorry.
Oh well monks cant have everything (like some people think they should), they need at least ONE weakness like the other classes do.
Originally posted by Nasher
Oh well monks cant have everything (like some people think they should), they need at least ONE weakness like the other classes do.
AHHAHAAHHAHA
What weaknesses does the PE and tank have?
Psycho_Soldier
16-08-03, 21:24
Tanks weakness? APUs and range. PE's well... ask a PE :p
Originally posted by Arcadius
AHHAHAAHHAHA
What weaknesses does the PE and tank have?
PEs depends very much on the setup, but there are at least always two.
Tanks? For sure xray it is, there is no xray armor for tanks except 5 xray from a belt. If a tank puts a shitload of points into xray resist, his weak side will be poison (compare the values of poison belts and the viper king armor - besides: using VKA would gimp other resists on most tank setups).
Wake up Arcadius, tanks are not anymore what they used to be once (early retail). Other classes advanced, got new stuff in the defensive field. Tanks got mostly offensive stuff. Don't misunderstand it, Im not saying tanks are weak or something, they just arent what they were once.
Originally posted by Lucjan
Tanks? For sure xray it is, there is no xray armor for tanks except 5 xray from a belt. If a tank puts a shitload of points into xray resist, his weak side will be poison (compare the values of poison belts and the viper king armor - besides: using VKA would gimp other resists on most tank setups).
A tank acn have enough for all resists and poison too. Unlike fire, energy, x-ray, or pierce, you don't need tons of poison resist to resist it. You only need like 50 to stop it in it's tracks, not to mention drugs.
Don't forget that a monk can't have good ALL around resists AND still have good poison resist. So they already have a weakness the same way tanks do, in addition to their piercing weakness.
Originally posted by Lucjan
PEs depends very much on the setup, but there are at least always two.
Then you know very little of setups in general, including PE setup if you think this.
Arcadius, it all depends on the level we talk about...
Like 50 POS is nice, but with 50 POS my tank goes down like a spy. This just isnt enough when somebody barrels the UG in an OP fight with Holy Pestilence.
As for the PE, a PE can maintain well balanced resists in all areas with the addition of shelter (which isnt that good anymore). But you can't reach the cap on resists on a PE without leaving at least "two doors open". You just can't. Btw, Im talking about the real cap here, not the 76% reduction damage thingy.
Originally posted by Lucjan
Like 50 POS is nice, but with 50 POS my tank goes down like a spy. This just isnt enough when somebody barrels the UG in an OP fight with Holy Pestilence.
Oh please don't even give me that bull. About .000000005% of the apus in this game use holy pestilence. Barrels in general are far too limited for PvP, their almost useless. Otherwise we would see them used alot more.
Secondly, your tank goes down like a spy with 50 pos? Yea ok. That's just plain BS. Unless you mean multiple stacks of pestilence, in which case, why the hell are you STAYING in the aoe of the barrel?
Let's not forget ANTIDOTE. I survive fine with 0 poison resist, since KK decided to implement 38927420387423074023 counter measures against poison.
Please stop using out of the ordinary scenarios that rarely ever happen to justify your arguement.
Another thing, Sgt.Murder on pluto has the best defenses(outside of a ppu) that I have ever seen, and he doesn't seem to have any weaknesses.
Leaving TWO doors open? Yea ok. Not only that but you CLAIM 50 pos is not enough? Wouldn't that mean that poison is a weakness of monks too then? So why on earth are you making that statement "they need at least ONE weakness like all the other classes" if poison is already a weakness?
I guess you need to learn a little more about setups and resists limits before we can take this further.
On a side note: some people use the advances of holy pestilence very well in recent OP fights, at least on Pluto. As you might now, rushing from the UG of an OP cause huge lag for most players, what is a good reason for using that barrel instead of others: you get at least 6 stacks on.
Originally posted by Lucjan
I guess you need to learn a little more about setups and resists limits before we can take this further.
What else to reply but :rolleyes:.
On a side note: some people use the advances of holy pestilence very well in recent OP fights, at least on Pluto. As you might now, rushing from the UG of an OP cause huge lag for most players, what is a good reason for using that barrel instead of others: you get at least 6 stacks on.
If there are enemies camping the underground exit, even GM resists aren't gonna save you.
Originally posted by Lucjan
I guess you need to learn a little more about setups and resists limits before we can take this further.
Actually it seems you're the one who is extremely ignorant when it comes to resists and setups. Take some time out to learn and study them, then come back to me and we'll talk. I don't have time to school you, I have better things to do.
Kendo Averly
17-08-03, 16:51
Thanks for your opinions, it's somewhat clearer now.
Tanks weak in x-ray? come on, let's be realistic.
In a tank you can cap x-ray natural resist (114), and have even better resists in energy and fire, at same you cap your body health(595). This is having 65 por resists aswell (without wearing viper armor).
If anyone is protected against x-ray, outside the ppu monk, those are tanks, as it should be if you ask me. Monks have good armors, but due the low cons and lack of self buffs, they cannot get enought body health to compete in taking damage... anyone despise basic resist 1-2? +15 body health +15 force in both, and basic 2 with +15 poison. I would love to have that with my monk; dont want to enter in heals.
The only class with rights to bitch about taking damage is the spy, because they are utter crap until capped, and even capped they sux. Spies lack of an effective defined role (like apu's), and also of resources to play their class. And since Rade, and some other PE's, are making bizarre setups based in eating 2 or even 3 drugs, aswell as having a MC-5 chip, even spies seem to be good at others' eyes; which is unfair, selfish and totally unrealistic in my opinion... we should start making PE setups with 3 drugs; beast for better armors, paratemol for more health to match tanks (or redflask to use TL-100 weapons without gimpage) and destrosol forte to have 40 psi to use psi shield and better boosters.
Many people lately is looking to their own egos, bitching about their classes in a destructive form, making other classes look invincible and overpowered. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages, if you dont like anything of your class, the solution is not looking at others and start to bitch, but thinking on a way to improve them.. comparisons are good to balance, but to destroy others are totally lame, for being soft offending.
If anything I would like to see improved in the game; it's not the retarded armors, damages or skills, but the frikin defined roles for all classes, making them necessary, important and what is essential in a game, fun to play them under any circunstance.
I am all up for improvements, and of course balance when something is overpowered; but the same topic of that people who cannot live with other classes, without seeing them nerfed to hell without any reasonable argument, or go to test server to make a setup and show all of us how leet is the other class compared to him... that makes me sick.
Believe it or not, a tank's weakness is piercing. They get a lot of force protection from their bone enforcements, but only 0.1% of tanks have any natural resist force, instead they put every single point in H-C.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Tanks weak in x-ray? come on, let's be realistic.
In a tank you can cap x-ray natural resist (114), and have even better resists in energy and fire, at same you cap your body health(595). This is having 65 por resists aswell (without wearing viper armor).
I still consider xray actually being a tank's weakness. Let me explain: 4.8 xray is what a typical H-C tank can get from armor (medium belt). A tank can cap the natural xray resist at 114 without any bigger problems, but this is the natural resist cap, not the overall resist cap. Here is the huge difference. To get really effective resists, you need to combine natural resists with armor. From my experience for example, a monk with holy spirit pants + boots (25 xray) and 90 natural xray resists has a better xray protection then the tank with his capped natural xray resist and his belt.
As you mentioned, tanks have the fire and energy armor being able to maintain great resists in these areas. xray remains their weaknes. Please don't look at the numbers only, effective resists are based on the combination of natural resists and armor.
Piercing damage is also a valid point that Scikar made. But that is something different in my opinion, it is player fault: tanks have everyting they need to get high piercing resists. It is just many players are not going for it...instead they cry for nerfing things like liberator or more recently: poison.
With capped xray resist and the medium energyfieldbelt, a tank gets almost 71% resistance to xray. The cap is only at 76%.
The monk with 90 natural xray resist and 25 xray armor gets less protection, somewhere just above 66%. The way to work it out is at neocron.ems.ru.
Where Natural Resist is equal to or less than 100, then
Natural Resist x 0.9 = Armor equivalent.
When over 100, check the site. Capped resist, 114, adds 119 armor. Add 5 from the belt is 124 armor. With 125 armor you get 71% resistance.
But for your monk, the 90 resist means 81 armor. Add 25 from armor, and you get 106 armor. And you don't need to be a genius to see that 106 will resist less than 124. So, in fact, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Originally posted by Sleawer
The only class with rights to bitch about taking damage is the spy, because they are utter crap until capped, and even capped they sux. Spies lack of an effective defined role (like apu's), and also of resources to play their class.
omg I agree.
Originally posted by Sleawer
Many people lately is looking to their own egos, bitching about their classes in a destructive form, making other classes look invincible and overpowered.
I am all up for improvements, and of course balance when something is overpowered; but the same topic of that people who cannot live with other classes, without seeing them nerfed to hell without any reasonable argument, or go to test server to make a setup and show all of us how leet is the other class compared to him... that makes me sick.
omfg EXACTLY!
Originally posted by Scikar
But for your monk, the 90 resist means 81 armor. Add 25 from armor, and you get 106 armor. And you don't need to be a genius to see that 106 will resist less than 124. So, in fact, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Youre assuming that neocron.ems.ru is correct. Doing some testings on your own, you would discover that some data varies pretty much from what is stated on rustot's site. But I might done testings wrong, as you mentioned I have no idea what I am talking about. So just have a look at other good source: the data from Lupus' testings here on the forum. Compare it please with neocron.ems.ru and you'll find some differences. Now take this into your own tests and use _modded burst weapons_ and you'll notice other differences.
Still, rustot's resist page is the best source for entering into resist setups. Just please thing about the data and source itself and don't expect somebody to fullfill wonders ;-)
Stating that somebody has no idea what he is talking about without knowing things for sure by yourself might not be the best idea ;-)
Do some testings on your own and what is more important, do them frequently. This is Neocron, the game where things get fixed or changed without notice. Mentioning this, you might also want to have a closer look at these 76% maximum demage reduction after the recent patches...
I have tested all this. And Lupus' testing agrees with rustot's site on most parts. Burst weapons are the worst possible choice for this kind of test because you can't tell when everything hits. The only weapons that are any use are lasers and plasma waves. Piercing weapons aren't so bad since you can hear the clicks each time they hit. But you sound like you've been testing with a CS, which is frankly stupid.
Originally posted by Scikar
I have tested all this. And Lupus' testing agrees with rustot's site on most parts. Burst weapons are the worst possible choice for this kind of test because you can't tell when everything hits. The only weapons that are any use are lasers and plasma waves. Piercing weapons aren't so bad since you can hear the clicks each time they hit. But you sound like you've been testing with a CS, which is frankly stupid.
You are right about it for the most part, but the problem is: burst weapons are what you will face in PvP. I guess everybody is doing the basic tests with single shot weapons. But then you need to move to burst weapons. It is a bitch and it takes up to 50 test shooting to get the maximum and avarade damages every time, but because it is annoying and difficult you can't just skip it. Maybe that is the difference between us both and the data we use as a base for that discussion. Still, as long as a CS is the major weapon on tanks or the PE on PEs, I don't see much choices to exclude these two weapons from testings at later stages. You should try it, you'll get a very interessting results...
Well of course I'll get interesting results, I'll be missing all the time. :rolleyes:
FYI a Storm Laser shoot 4 shots per burst just like a CS, except you know when the shots hit.
Originally posted by Scikar
Well of course I'll get interesting results, I'll be missing all the time. :rolleyes:
That is the reason for the need to run up to 50 test shots. Otherwise you have amazing random data ;P
FYI a Storm Laser shoot 4 shots per burst just like a CS, except you know when the shots hit.
That is correct, but its damage is not burst afaik. It is the same as using a Wave for testing.
I know where this is heading. You're gonna come out with some crap about burst bonus. Well I tell you what, you carry on believing everything your supposedly accurate tests tell you, and I'll carry on believing mine because mine work.
Originally posted by Sleawer
The only class with rights to bitch about taking damage is the spy, because they are utter crap until capped, and even capped they sux. Spies lack of an effective defined role (like apu's), and also of resources to play their class. And since Rade, and some other PE's, are making bizarre setups based in eating 2 or even 3 drugs, aswell as having a MC-5 chip, even spies seem to be good at others' eyes; which is unfair, selfish and totally unrealistic in my opinion... we should start making PE setups with 3 drugs; beast for better armors, paratemol for more health to match tanks (or redflask to use TL-100 weapons without gimpage) and destrosol forte to have 40 psi to use psi shield and better boosters.
Many people lately is looking to their own egos, bitching about their classes in a destructive form, making other classes look invincible and overpowered. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages, if you dont like anything of your class, the solution is not looking at others and start to bitch, but thinking on a way to improve them.. comparisons are good to balance, but to destroy others are totally lame, for being soft offending.
If anything I would like to see improved in the game; it's not the retarded armors, damages or skills, but the frikin defined roles for all classes, making them necessary, important and what is essential in a game, fun to play them under any circunstance.
I am all up for improvements, and of course balance when something is overpowered; but the same topic of that people who cannot live with other classes, without seeing them nerfed to hell without any reasonable argument, or go to test server to make a setup and show all of us how leet is the other class compared to him... that makes me sick.
Wow.
Quite possibly the most amazing response ive ever seen. Ive never seen something on these forums with so much thought, and heart. I couldn't agree more with what you said.
Dribble Joy
18-08-03, 02:07
Originally posted by Lucjan
PEs depends very much on the setup, but there are at least always two.
The only weakness my PE has is poison, but even then a Holy Pestilence won't kill me in one go. and that's with all the stacks hitting.
A good PE will have overall armour for force, piercing, fire, energy and xray at or above 110. (yes this includes buffs, but buffs are an important aspect of PE setups, without them spys would own them with knifes)
Originally posted by Sleawer :
The only class with rights to bitch about taking damage is the spy, because they are utter crap until capped, and even capped they sux. Spies lack of an effective defined role (like apu's), and also of resources to play their class. And since Rade, and some other PE's, are making bizarre setups based in eating 2 or even 3 drugs, aswell as having a MC-5 chip, even spies seem to be good at others' eyes; which is unfair, selfish and totally unrealistic in my opinion... we should start making PE setups with 3 drugs; beast for better armors, paratemol for more health to match tanks (or redflask to use TL-100 weapons without gimpage) and destrosol forte to have 40 psi to use psi shield and better boosters. Many people lately is looking to their own egos, bitching about their classes in a destructive form, making other classes look invincible and overpowered. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages, if you dont like anything of your class, the solution is not looking at others and start to bitch, but thinking on a way to improve them.. comparisons are good to balance, but to destroy others are totally lame, for being soft offending. If anything I would like to see improved in the game; it's not the retarded armors, damages or skills, but the frikin defined roles for all classes, making them necessary, important and what is essential in a game, fun to play them under any circunstance. I am all up for improvements, and of course balance when something is overpowered; but the same topic of that people who cannot live with other classes, without seeing them nerfed to hell without any reasonable argument, or go to test server to make a setup and show all of us how leet is the other class compared to him... that makes me sick.
EXACTLY !
my hero :D
.cy
StoneRayne
18-08-03, 07:57
I've done testing.. enough testing.. and more testing... That website, from what I know, however respected, is pretty inaccurate. His absorb numbers are pretty much completely useless from what I know. Maybe they work for TPW or whatever, but they sure as hell don't work for spells or yeah, burst weapons.
Come on, that page hasn't been updated in few months, and just run a series of tests until you get your resists flipped, that info does not explain flips, and I've encountered flips so many times that if you try to prove to me they don't exist I wont answer.
Then, that page doesn't even mention anything how CON level affects your resists, and again, if you try to tell me it doesn't effect it, well... =]
Just a neutral opinion of someone who has capped pe/tank/apu =/
JustIn_Case
18-08-03, 11:18
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Even APUs are immune to fire/energy/xray
Rofl thats funny.
immune ??
Dead from 4 bursts from a CS = Immune?
Dead from 3-4 Holy Lightnings = Immune?
Dead from 3 Fire Apocs = Immune?
Hmm, need to look up the word immune........
The only class that dies faster then an APU is an SPY..
And i think an APU should die easy as an drawback to the massive damage they do, but noone can say they are immune to damage........
Originally posted by StoneRayne
I've done testing.. enough testing.. and more testing... That website, from what I know, however respected, is pretty inaccurate. His absorb numbers are pretty much completely useless from what I know. Maybe they work for TPW or whatever, but they sure as hell don't work for spells or yeah, burst weapons.
Come on, that page hasn't been updated in few months, and just run a series of tests until you get your resists flipped, that info does not explain flips, and I've encountered flips so many times that if you try to prove to me they don't exist I wont answer.
Then, that page doesn't even mention anything how CON level affects your resists, and again, if you try to tell me it doesn't effect it, well... =]
Just a neutral opinion of someone who has capped pe/tank/apu =/
Well I've never ever found any flips, and Lupus tested this extensively without finding any flips at all, and he also found CON has no effect whatsoever on your resists. And to be honest I think a GM who can change skills at will is going to get slightly better results than someone who needs to use LoM pills.
Originally posted by Scikar
Well I've never ever found any flips, and Lupus tested this extensively without finding any flips at all, and he also found CON has no effect whatsoever on your resists. And to be honest I think a GM who can change skills at will is going to get slightly better results than someone who needs to use LoM pills.
Not really, the GM has just the easier job ;-) Besides, you don't use LoMs on resists tests, you use them on setup tests and we should not mix these two up.
I dont know what tests Lupus did so far, I only know about the ones he posted on the forums. And this is for example only a small part of the testing procedure we are using and I am pretty sure he knows that too. I remember he wrote somewhere that this is just the beginning, he need more time to preceed with them.
Flip: its theory got several update since the time it apeared the first time, but some people missed it I guess. Ignorance is someting wonderful when used properly ;-)
CON had an effect on resists, now it doesnt, at least in the range of 70 to 100 CON where it does so far. From the last two testing procedures I would say KK did something on resists, what actually isnt a big surprise after the huge "resists dont work bitching" in both communities.
Please just stop. it's nearly 2pm so I've only been up for an hour, and I'm really not in the mood for arguing about resists. This discussion isn't really going anywhere anyway. I concede your point, tanks can't cap xray resist so it will always be a little weaker than their other resists, just like a monk can't cap piercing resist. Happy?
Originally posted by Scikar
Please just stop. it's nearly 2pm so I've only been up for an hour, and I'm really not in the mood for arguing about resists. This discussion isn't really going anywhere anyway. I concede your point, tanks can't cap xray resist so it will always be a little weaker than their other resists, just like a monk can't cap piercing resist. Happy?
Erm, not really ;-) But youre right, I guess we're stucked and should end here.
greendonkeyuk
18-08-03, 16:47
sleawer cracked it, he hit the nail right on the head, as for rade etc with the new uber-setups(tm)... yeah i like em and yes im sure theyre effective but theres one thing that fuxxors em all up...... drugflash.... could happen when you least want it to..... all the shelters in the world aint gonna save my spy when hes staggering around like a drug-crazed baboon.....
As much as those set ups work and all i personally wouldnt consider them to be round the clock viable due to the amount of drugs.
A setup without the use of drugs (perhaps one that is ENHANCED by drugs but not MANDATORY) would be so much better. There is one out there, i know it for sure, i have yet to tweak mine to find it thats all.
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