Weapon Skills Idea.

[Scikar]

This idea came about because a lot of people, especially QD, feel it's unfair that a huge great cannon is still effective at close range. But if cannons were changed to only be effective at blasting through OP walls, siege style, then tanks would only be able to do that, since melee is pretty limited, and they don't have enough dex to use a pistol or rifle to any degree of effectiveness. The idea was to make people a little more dependant on imps, so with 0 imps you'd be just as effective with melee or cannons, but you use imps to take one up.

Basically you'd change the skills with a big bonus flip point like there is with apu. If you want to get over the point naturally you need to specialise totally in that skill area. But since imps would give a lot more points, it would be possible to hit say 100 h-c and 100 m-c, then take it over the flip point with the imps. The greatest part is that you can chop and change the imps before a fight. So you would have half of your force with long range imps (rifles and cannons) and the other half with short range imps (pistols and melee). Everyone uses cannons and rifles to soften up the enemy, then the specialists hold back to provide cover while the close range specialists move in and assault the enemy in hand-to-hand, whites of their eyes style fighting. If the enemies are broken, the long range teams can switch to close up and join the assault to finish them off, while if some of the enemies break out and attack the cannon and rifle users they can still defend themselves by switching to their melee or pistols. They won't be as effective but they'll still have a chance of fighting off their opponents.

With this system in place, there's no reason why cannons and rifles can't be tweaked to do a little more damage and aiming at mid range for cannons and long for rifles, while having very bad aiming close up.

This idea may be redundant with the skill changes in DoY, but maybe those skill changes could be improved with something like this, who knows?

So, tell me what you think.

[Sleawer]

I dont understand it completely.
So you are suggesting that imps give HUGE bonuses?

The flip point exists in every weapon, tested and it follows a pattern.. to achieve the task of implants as a key to master two combat skills, you would need either to low the specialization bonus, or to make implants give really awesome bonuses.

Can you be more detailed about the idea please :p

[Scikar]

Well, I'm saying you'd get to maybe 120% damage on a CS with 120% on a DG, for example. And then your imps give a big bonus, to the order of like +50, taking you up near or to the caps. But you could sacrifice a little RoF and aiming on your CS in order to get a little more damage on your DG. So you get people with anywhere from 120% DG and 178% CS, to equal amounts on both, adding diversity. You can also get people who would go pure H-C and use imps to get decent pistol stats, which adds even more diversity, because you won't know if that tank is gonna pull a DG out or a pistol. I was thinking maybe have the +50 from backbones alone, since there's only one backbone slot. Then brain slots would be used to raise your main stats, or add things like movement controllers, resist chip etc.

The difference between the classes would be that tanks can have both M-C and H-C but they can only use one dex weapon effectively, PEs would maybe not be so good with their second choice, but they can have M-C or H-C to a fair level, while spies can have both P-C and R-C with one imped up.

EDIT: And, taking the DG/CS example, if you get your clan ready for an OP fight and you realise that everyone is imped up for H-C and you have no melee users, you can just take out your H-C backbone and put in an M-C backbone.

[Benjie]

Are you saying nurf the hybrid Tank?

If so, then Melee Implants Need to give a bonus to Pistol Class aswell. After all, pistols where orrigionally intended to be a half Tank weapon....

[Scikar]

Originally posted by Benjie
Are you saying nurf the hybrid Tank?

If so, then Melee Implants Need to give a bonus to Pistol Class aswell. After all, pistols where orrigionally intended to be a half Tank weapon....

Not at all. I'm saying that chars should be a blend of combat skills instead of always being purely one weapon class.

[FBI]

Are you saying that if a tank invests in both HC and Melee, it will
give a bonus to each?

Sorta like monks PPU and APU but opposite..

I'm just a little confused what your talking about, +50 from a
backbone? for what? O_o

[SigmaDraconis]

I.._think_ ...maybe...as confusing as he puts..basically..rifles and cannons are used as long range support weaponry..and melee and pistols are the actual close rnage weapons..basically make cannons and rifles useless in clsoe range..

kinda like..

a bow (cannons+rifles)
and a short sword (pistols+melee)

take a line of bowmen.....ok cool shooting with their bows at range...omg..enemy is charging..well all die!!!..no wait..lets pull our short swords!

I guess make the hybrids actually effective..so that they can be used like that.. ?

if im wrong just ignore me i dun give a shit really..sounds cool..but well...tanks suck as it is for anythign but dueling i dont think this iwll help them....

[Sleawer]

I think what Scikar want is to get rid of the retarded idea of specialization, which makes us to not have points but in one or two subskills to be viable, and kills the diversity in player roles.

The idea itself is good, and it's something with which I agree, the hard part is the measures to acomplish it... in this case Scikar suggested giving implants more importance to make the idea possible.

[Scikar]

Sigma is right, that's the idea.

FBI, you wouldn't get a bonus to H-C from using any M-C. But if implants gave a lot more H-C, then you might have some to spare that you can spend in M-C.

I just figured it seems strange that a tank, trained for combat, can't use more than one type of weaponry, and the same is true for all the classes.

Some other advantages of this include the fact that spies and PEs could choose to have one dex skill (R-C or P-C) and then have a lots of agility. This would lead to them being the fast, agile classes they are supposed to be rather than the relatively slow speed they get currently. It would also let tanks spend a few more points in resist force, another skill like agility for spies, tanks are supposed to be good at it but they can't spare any points for it.

[Dribble Joy]

Although this idea is nice, wouldn't people just speciallise like before so they are 00b4r at one weapon type?
PE's split PC and RC and imp up one as their main skill, but most would shove the whole lot in one of the two, and get stacks of AGL.
Tanks and spys get enough points to generalise so that they can cap one area and still use another to a decent degree.
Monks... gah hybrids again, unless the one-skill-nerfs-the-other is kept.

[FBI]

If this is the case, lets go back to pre patch 165 or whatever
when they started to force specializations.

For this to even work, the backbones, i'd like them to be rare
loot. Also, they should be around tl90-115 to prevent low leveled
chars from capping their weapons so early where as say capped
players already have their guns maxed so these would allow
players to put points in other skills.

edit: i like the idea but on paper all ideas are nice.

[Scikar]

Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Although this idea is nice, wouldn't people just speciallise like before so they are 00b4r at one weapon type?
PE's split PC and RC and imp up one as their main skill, but most would shove the whole lot in one of the two, and get stacks of AGL.
Tanks and spys get enough points to generalise so that they can cap one area and still use another to a decent degree.
Monks... gah hybrids again, unless the one-skill-nerfs-the-other is kept.

Well that's the point. You CAN specialise in one skill area, but pistols and melee will be useless for mid range, and if cannons are given reduced aiming at close range along with a minor tweak for rifles (they should still be easier to aim in CQB than cannons) then they'll be useless close up. Also you won't be able to get much better than you can now, the only real difference is tanks might be able to get a higher RoF and aiming on cannons, but they won't be useful close up anyway, and spies could cap RoF on a FL or Disruptor, which to be honest isn't exactly a bad thing, is it?

The monks would not be affected by this, because apu is effective at any range, so there's no need to change the apu and ppu formulas. There's no way I'd let hybrids come back. :p

FBI has the idea, you could specialise in H-C all the way but past a certain point you won't be getting anything out of it if you have everything capped anyway. So you'd have spare points of M-C, resist force or transport, which are things tanks are supposed to be able to get but can't because they need all the H-C.

And yes, the +50 backbones would certainly be TL90+.

[Ste-X]

please dont kill neocron in one go

[Scikar]

Originally posted by Ste-X
please dont kill neocron in one go

Care to explain? :p