View Full Version : For all of you people that think apu and ppu are overpowered would you like this fix?
If you truely feel apu and ppu are both overpowered, would you think it's a good idea to make ALL monks hybrids then balance it from there?
IMO I would actually go for this. It just seems like KK never intended pures to exist, then when they started changing the skills aroudn slightly to accomadate pures we had a new problem. I remember rade saying KK never fully thought about what would happen to have a pure ppu. Anyways I agree. So what do you think?
I dont want to play a hybrid. The day im forced to play one is the day i go in search for another game.
Let me tell you a little story about my ppu monk. Polarity used to be a hybrid, i leveled her up and capped her psi. I got her nice slotted attack spells and defence spells. However in op battles i found myself healing/buffing my team more than attacking the enemy. So when the ppu/apu split came back (loooong time ago) and psi skill points got freed, i made polarity a ppu. Bare in mind i had the choice to leave my char an uber hybrid. I chose to take a risk of going ppu though, and thankfully i feel i made the right choice. Ever since then i have loved my char to bits. Through all the nerfs i still love playing my ppu every day. And you want to take that away from me? No thx.
KK have made it clear they want neocron to be a team game. They are making each class needed for battles, so going without a specific class will hurt your side. ATM a ppu/apu/hacker are the only thing people NEED but KK are working on making the other subclasses needed for op battles too.
BTW Kudos to you arc for making an unbiased poll, its something of a rarity these days.
Personally I feel that PPU's need to be toned down, or apu's need a viable way to debuff them. I have a PPU, and I feel that he is to strong. During an OP battle we had wiped out the other clan except for 2 of their PPU's. We had our whole clan chasing these 2 shooting, trying to debuff, and doing everything we could possibly think of...and not once could we drop them below half health. The only way we got them that low was cause they screwed up their casting a few times. When you have 8 people fighting one PPU and can't kill him......something needs to be done.
So I feel that either:
a) PPU's need to be brought down some
b) Anti buff needs to cast a whole lot faster
and yes polarity....you were one of those bastards we couldn't take down :D
Yes nerf the whole class because you bump into capped ppus who use 5 slotted ultimated spells, who have dimension splitters and who have played since beta. There are prolly only about 15 or so ppus on pluto atm who take multitudes of people to bring down. All the rest drop without much hassle at all.
APUs already have more than enough means to take a ppu down, its just the other classes dont. If you think they dont then your wrong. Right now a capped apu is almost at the stage where they can solo capped ppus. Two apus can take down any ppu monk. If an equal apu could solo a ppu of the same level it would be wrong.
Its a shame this thread is going the same way of the other nerf the ppu threads out there. When i dont even think that was arcs intentions :(
BlackPrince
13-08-03, 21:00
Wrong Pit. an APU cannot runcast holy antibuff, whereas a PPU can runcast all the buffs and heals he needs. That right there is a glaring imbalance in the whole equation.
I've always thought that APU/PPU balance should be yin and yang. Anything one does, the other should be able to undo just as easily. That, in this case, is the only way to achieve balance.
And sorry if some of us don't think that a PPU should be able to decide battles and eventually bore an opposing force into defeat.
@Blackprince:
LOL you obviously have NEVER played a ppu or even observed them well enough have you?
whereas a PPU can runcast all the buffs and heals he needs
Bullshit, the only spell a ppu can runcast is parashock. Infact 95% of our spells are slower than apu so STFU. You should try casting the Holy Catharsis Sanctum which takes 306 mana and a MINUMUM of 6 whole seconds of standing still to cast. Same thing goes with truesight sanctum, holy resurrection etc etc.
And sorry if some of us don't think that a PPU should be able to decide battles and eventually bore an opposing force into defeat
I agree ppus need some minor tweaking but i doubt that would satisfy the blood thirsty fuckers out there who just want the whole ppu monk class deleted.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
And sorry if some of us don't think that a PPU should be able to decide battles and eventually bore an opposing force into defeat.
My thoughts exactly.........it gets to a point of chasing the ass around for so damn long, that basically it just makes you want to leave. We had 2 apu's with anti buff the day im thinking of, 4 tanks with speed gats, 3 PPU's and a few spies. I think our total force was somewhere around 12. Eventually the teamspeak went from:
"Ok hes paralyzed and debuffed...hit em hard!"
to
"Ok this is fucking lame....by the time anti buff is cast and he is debuffed, he is already rebuffing. Fuck this....lets go take another op, this fight is lame. Im tired of chasin these asses all over the op with no chance of beating them."
It takes all the fun out of OP battles. Yes your capped....good for you, but our APU's are not far behind, and we have done tests with our APU's and PPU's, and clearly unless the PPU is not moving for about 3 mins, you can't drop him.
I know the feelin of everyone not being able to drop you is great (I have a PPU remember), but they are simpy over powered.
BlackPrince
13-08-03, 21:11
No Pit, I've had lots of practice observing you, and thats exactly what happens. Then once everyones bored in come the stealthers to drop turrets and go hide again.
Boy oh boy, what fun!
My god, at the end of the day we're left thinking "wtf was the point of that?". You know its a bad fight when you kill the same guys 2-3 times in a row AND YOU KNOW IT HAS NO EFFECT ON THE BATTLEWHATSOEVER.
Only thing i want:
Tweak the HL o_O
Imo its just pure evil and too strong (a bit).
PPUs are fine.
Oh great now this thread is getting turned into clan bashing time. Really sad that everyone is totally deviating from the entire point of arc's post.
Id like to see psi split up into perhaps... 4 different skills, and then the top level spells removed in each cathegory. Then everyone could make their own weird combinations. Someone might have attack spells and dmg boosts, someone else attack spells and shields.. someone parashocks and heals etc etc. Would add diversity.
Originally posted by Pitspawn
Oh great now this thread is getting turned into clan bashing time. Really sad that everyone is totally deviating from the entire point of arc's post.
im not turning it into a clan bash post, Im just using an example.......on the other hand i can't speak for bp :p
Yes rade ive often thought about the same sort of thing...
APU Energy (Energy/Fire)
APU Exotic (Debuffs/Poison)
PPU Passive (Heals/Buffs)
PPU Exotic (Sanctums/Parashock/Dmg Boost/Shielding)
But, all it would achieve is you'd need two ppu monks rather than one. Which actually makes the situation worse than it already is ;/
I'd like to see some level of hybrid allowed, low/high, dying constantly, because I cant heal/shelter is a pile of smelly drom pooh :mad: I spend more time @ the GR pokin myself than I do actually levelin :(
@ Pit - ur right, we cant run cast, we can however, hmm, time cast, that is, walk/stop, cast, n then run, but that takes a while to get right, and usualy fizzles, though, to be frank, my PE can do it with heal.
Listen everyone, Monks will not get nerfed. Just leave it alone.
All i wanted to do was get holy paralysis nerfed, i think then
it would be balanced. I'm the type of player that doesn't mind
losing a fight, but If i can't even put up a good fight because
i'm wiggling and wobbling like a penguin shocked on ice, then
whats the point?
Let's all just hide in a fucking box, and pretend the monks are
perfectly fine, this way the blind can continue to stay blind.
I call my box, the magic box. It's my only protection against
holy paralysis :p
http://www.waaazup.com/p/uploads/1111111shot00011.jpg
http://www.waaazup.com/p/uploads/22222shot0000.jpg
:lol: :lol: :lol: :angel:
KidWithStick
13-08-03, 21:26
nah....on my monkey i dont mind getting killed easy...and i dont think APU's are overpowered since they die almost as easy as a spy.
PPU's arnt overpowerd either....there suppose to be hard...
the problem is every "good PvPer" has one stuck to him 24/7
"OMGOMG I NEED TO FIGHT IN PEPPER PARK BUFFORZ ME"
BlackPrince
13-08-03, 21:34
I wasn't clan bashing. I gave an example and then feedback from the other side. Sorry you can't handle that.
Rade's idea is great, but would probably require too much work on the part of KK to implement.
Progenitor
13-08-03, 22:08
I wouldn't mind seeing the hybrid be the balanced norm for the monks and then the pure/specialized monk be the uber class that it could be.
So that you would have the option of being a hybrid - if they could balance the hybrid to be somewhere between a PE and Tank. The buffs of a PE and the offense of the Tank, but in psi form.
Or if you wanted, you could go pure and be one damage dealing monstrosity or one ungodly undestructable force.
I don't know if it is possible to do that or not. To have the hybrid balanced and the pures uber.
-p
Promethius
13-08-03, 23:04
Originally posted by Budfan8
Personally I feel that PPU's need to be toned down, or apu's need a viable way to debuff them.
Holy anti-buff....? Anti-sheild..... just have an apu chain cast anti sheild....monks can't run cast sheilds so the PPU will have to stand there and re buff over adn over....then trist the monk switch an anti-deflecter cause em to fuck up.
BlackPrince
13-08-03, 23:07
Promethius, the cast time on those two spells is horrendous, plus the PPU can instantly rebuff right afterwards, not much of a threat unless it disabled their ability to self-buff for a fixed amount of time.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Promethius, the cast time on those two spells is horrendous, plus the PPU can instantly rebuff right afterwards, not much of a threat unless it disabled their ability to self-buff for a fixed amount of time.
21/min = less than 3 seconds to cast. If you have 2 apus, then thats a debuff every 1.5 seconds. No way can the ppu rebuff that. Remember he can only cast shelter or deflector, not both at the same time, so a holy antibuff while there's an apu hitting him with HL and a tank using speedgun is usually enough to do the trick, especially if you have a ppu to damage boost him.
2 things to say about this:
1) I would hate being a hybrid SO FUCKING MUCH. I HATE HYBRIDS. The very thought of buffing myself up with holy level buffs then proceeding to romp around with high level apu spells makes me sick.
2)erm... I forgot what 2 was...
sorry arc, but no one should be forced to be anything.
this last monk nerf was supposed to kill hybrids, but i stayed. it didnt force me to change which is why i can (JUST) live with it.
Promethius
13-08-03, 23:31
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Promethius, the cast time on those two spells is horrendous, plus the PPU can instantly rebuff right afterwards, not much of a threat unless it disabled their ability to self-buff for a fixed amount of time.
the rof isn't bad at all. Its only in effective if the ppu is watching u cast it on them in an OP fight its VERY effective. It is a decent if you kno when to use it. Also u can chain cast the non-rare ones. I also think they have a higher RoF than the rares but not sure.
Originally posted by BlackPrince
an APU cannot runcast holy antibuff,
WRONG
Originally posted by BlackPrince
whereas a PPU can runcast all the buffs and heals he needs. WRONG
Run cast def is poss on holy anti buff, poss need psi 3 though not sure if anyone can do it without?...
PPU CANT RUN CAST ANYTHING BUT PARA, you can make it look like you do by having a fast cast rate, hence only stoping for a split sec and running off just as its cast.
Its one idea to the solution to make all monks hybrid, but i prefer pure monks, i think the solution should be more give other classes way to kill monks and defend against them. Anti buffs are a step in the right direction, now we just need a solution for spy and tanks (pe's should only be able to use a low end dex version of a spies solution as they JAOT)....Maby a ammo mod that can fire through shields but itsnt as powerful and only works on one type of weapon, eg gatlin or plasma weps.
Originally posted by Promethius
the rof isn't bad at all. Its only in effective if the ppu is watching u cast it on them in an OP fight its VERY effective. It is a decent if you kno when to use it. Also u can chain cast the non-rare ones. I also think they have a higher RoF than the rares but not sure.
Antideflector, Antishield = 10/min
Antiheal = 12/min (I think)
Holy Antidef/shield/heal = 21/min
Antibuff = 10/min
Holy Antibuff = 21/min
Though the regular antibuff doesn't work since it needs something like 350 mana to cast, which is bigger than the average apu's psi pool.
EDIT: Yes, the best time to take down a ppu is during the fight itself. If the ppu is busy trying to heal his mates it only takes one apu to debuff and waste him from behind his teammates tot ake the ppu down. It's when the ppu is the last man left and he's doing his utmost to stay alive that they become difficult to kill.
Who said is wrong apu's cannot runcast holy antibuff?
:confused:
I'm apu, I cap damage and rof on it, I cannot runcast it. Period.
How can you say APU's are overpowered? My hybrid was nerfed to hell so I went APU. APU's have a chance against PPU's because PPU's can't hit them. If anything hits my monk, he dies.I got killed today by a warbot I didn't notice. If a warbot spawns while I'm hacking, I die. I used to laugh at WB's as a hybrid, but sewer flies could kill my APU if he didn't shoot them first. APU's should have access to the same buffs that tanks do at least. there is an old saying about wimps not being able to beat the skin off a rice pudding. When I play my APU, I can smell the nutmeg :-)
BTW I don't PvP. I only kill beasties because I'm a nice guy. Hence my one man clan's name: Paladin. (I bet someones going to offer me some good stuff for that clan name on Saturn once players can be Paladins :-)
Promethius
14-08-03, 00:13
Originally posted by Scikar
Antideflector, Antishield = 10/min
Antiheal = 12/min (I think)
Holy Antidef/shield/heal = 21/min
Antibuff = 10/min
Holy Antibuff = 21/min
Though the regular antibuff doesn't work since it needs something like 350 mana to cast, which is bigger than the average apu's psi pool.
EDIT: Yes, the best time to take down a ppu is during the fight itself. If the ppu is busy trying to heal his mates it only takes one apu to debuff and waste him from behind his teammates tot ake the ppu down. It's when the ppu is the last man left and he's doing his utmost to stay alive that they become difficult to kill.
Of course when they are 100% facoused ons taying alive (there specialty ;) ) they will be MUCH more difficult but doesn't mena immpossible. Gets alot easier if u have a PPU with u spamming shocks. Then apu can anti- buff tank / PE/ Spy can jsut use PE/ gatlin while apu whipes out the trusty HL and gives the PPU a run for there money. (also when ppu stops to rebuff ur PPU dmg boosts).
Originally posted by Promethius
Of course when they are 100% facoused ons taying alive (there specialty ;) ) they will be MUCH more difficult but doesn't mena immpossible. Gets alot easier if u have a PPU with u spamming shocks. Then apu can anti- buff tank / PE/ Spy can jsut use PE/ gatlin while apu whipes out the trusty HL and gives the PPU a run for there money. (also when ppu stops to rebuff ur PPU dmg boosts).
Exactly so when you're properly equipped there's no problem. Though in smaller fights, like when a tank, a PE and a ppu meet a ppu, and apu and a spy, the ppus don't die. :)
Promethius
14-08-03, 00:27
Originally posted by Scikar
Exactly so when you're properly equipped there's no problem. Though in smaller fights, like when a tank, a PE and a ppu meet a ppu, and apu and a spy, the ppus don't die. :)
lol true but does it matter...there ppus they can heal and thats about it...why msut everyone die WHY??? =P
Originally posted by Promethius
lol true but does it matter...there ppus they can heal and thats about it...why msut everyone die WHY??? =P
Because they can rez their team mates and then turn the fight around. Come on, the "all they can do is heal" is not a very good argument, ppus can boost other players combat skills massively (20 apu is a helluva lot if it takes you over 168), they can reduce the damage they take (though it's at a perfect level now) they can nullify poison, parashock, and damage boost, the can ressurect, they can parashock, they can damage boost, and then they can heal. :p
OMG I just thought of a great way to respond to parshocks!! Antishock is too hard to cast, but what about an antishock sanctum? Make it store bought, since we want more people to use it than the 10 or so who can get one within 2 months, but with a rare one which has wider area of effect. Think about it, a sanctum would completely stop parashock spam altogether! Though it should have a long cast time and a short period of effect because otherwise it would make ppus a little harder to kill, but if it had a long cast time and short duration (but not cost too much mana) it would work fine during the fight itself but not so well when the ppu is on his own. What do you think?
Originally posted by BlackPrince
Wrong Pit. an APU cannot runcast holy antibuff, whereas a PPU can runcast all the buffs and heals he needs. That right there is a glaring imbalance in the whole equation.
PPus can't run/cast buffs and heals from what I seen. Not that it matters much since they cast it quickly.
Originally posted by Rade
Id like to see psi split up into perhaps... 4 different skills, and then the top level spells removed in each cathegory. Then everyone could make their own weird combinations. Someone might have attack spells and dmg boosts, someone else attack spells and shields.. someone parashocks and heals etc etc. Would add diversity.
Great idea.
Originally posted by SorkZmok
Only thing i want:
Tweak the HL o_O
Imo its just pure evil and too strong (a bit).
PPUs are fine.
You think the HL is overpowered but ppus are fine? Are you freaking serious?
Originally posted by Scikar
21/min = less than 3 seconds to cast. If you have 2 apus, then thats a debuff every 1.5 seconds.
rofl, if we had a decent mana pool that "plan" might work.
You think it's that easy to kill a ppu? Bullshit. People think you need an apu to kill a ppu, you need more. You need a ppu AND an apu, so the ppu can spam paralysis. Have you ever tried taking down a half decent ppu without using paralyze?
Originally posted by Scikar
1) I would hate being a hybrid SO FUCKING MUCH. I HATE HYBRIDS. The very thought of buffing myself up with holy level buffs then proceeding to romp around with high level apu spells makes me sick.
That's why I said balanced that way. Now can you tell me why you would hate being a hybrid?
Originally posted by Promethius
Also u can chain cast the non-rare ones. I also think they have a higher RoF than the rares but not sure.
Chain cast anti-shelter? What magical apu can do this?
Originally posted by Cyphor
WRONG
With capped damage and RoF i couldn't run/cast holy antibuff.
Originally posted by Pitspawn
I dont want to play a hybrid. The day im forced to play one is the day i go in search for another game.
Oh Christ are you serious? If apu ever becomes unviable i'll play hybrid or another class. You're really gonna stop playing neocron completely because PURE ppu won't be viable? What if pure ppu was never in the game? What is it you like, being super duper overly important to your clan in an op battle? Being able to turn the tide of a battle by yourself?
Originally posted by Pitspawn
Let me tell you a little story about my ppu monk. Polarity used to be a hybrid, i leveled her up and capped her psi. I got her nice slotted attack spells and defence spells. However in op battles i found myself healing/buffing my team more than attacking the enemy.
But if you're hybrid you'll still be able to buff/heal your team. The buff/heals won't be as strong, that's the only diff. You can still play teh support role by dedicating your entire fight time to buffing your team.
Originally posted by Pitspawn
but KK are working on making the other subclasses needed for op battles too.
How do you know this? The day my bitching about ppus is toned down is the day other classes are actually needed as much as ppus. And not just in fucking op battles, I want other classes to be needed in normal team battles in pepper park or some small skirmish in the outzone or crp etc.... Not everything is op battles. Maybe I would be more enthusiastic if my FPS in op battles finally went above 10, *sigh*.
Anyways my point, how do you know KK is trying to make the other classes needed in PvP? I'm dead serious, i've seen NOTHING from KK to show this. I don't see KK making any efforts to make the tank, pe, or spy needed in op battles. And I wanna see other classes needed in a way that has NOTHIGN to do with a ppu. DO you know why you need an apu? To debuff the person who's needed the most.......THE PPU!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by Pitspawn
BTW Kudos to you arc for making an unbiased poll, its something of a rarity these days.
Apparently alot of people want me to STFU. :eek:
And I completely admit that I'm one of those people that think "pure" ppu should be deleted. If that means deleting apus and making all monks hybrids, then I will gladly make the sacrifice.
Btw I admit one of my gripes about apu debuffing just has to do with my own computer. The day I get a better comp is the day more ppus in op battles will die. But putting force fog all the way down and getting 9 FPS and missing holy antibuff(draining all your pool) because everyone is "teleporting" around due to your shitty fps is beyond aggravating.
*sigh*
Arc the reason I would hate being a hybrid is because suddenly I'd have to start caring about buffs. The thing I love most about being an apu is that I don't have to stop every 2 minutes to buff myself. I've learnt to live without buffs to the point where I don't care about them any more. Another point - have you noticed you don't get parashocked much any more? The ppus still do it but all the hybrids are gone. I hardly ever get parashocked nowadays. And yes I have killed ppu monks solo, albeit not the best ones. Usually I find they can't quite outheal HL, so as long as I get enough hits in after I antishield them they usualy go down if I don't mess up with psi boosters.
In op wars, we generally have a couple of good ppus, the parashock isn't really necessary, all that's needed is a damage boost, then I just run as close to the ppu as I can, blasting him all the way. At that range I just can't miss.
Originally posted by Scikar
I hardly ever get parashocked nowadays.
:eek:
What server are you on?
On Saturn. I still get shocked a bit but I have enough drugs to cope. I certainly don't get paraspammed.
Originally posted by Scikar
I certainly don't get paraspammed.
I do.
I get paraspammed too, and I play on Saturn.
Originally posted by Arcadius
I do.
I always heard about parashock being bad on Pluto but I never really thought it would be any worse than Saturn. On Saturn the only people who really get paraspammed are ppus after a fight. I used to get shocked all the time when everyone was hybrid though.
It would be interesting if KK launched a new server, without Monks...and lower Dmg on a few High lvl mobs...i would like to see how a monk free Neocron would look like...eh...
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