View Full Version : Does OP ownership need tweaking???
First of all i know that this has been suggested in some form earlier but hear me out..
Ok some background for my question (on Saturn btw)
Last night TT got together a bunch of guys to take charge over the server (well try to anyway) and we proceeded to Simmons and took it and the wait started...
After a long while of waiting from our side (our scouts reported that a TG clan was gathering at Point Red) nothing happened except a few people from our group decided to go home. Then we went to Jeriko and started to hack it, and i guess you all know how it is, since some people left we were short of hackers and while we waited they (the TG clan) finally decided to give us what we deserved.. LOL yeah we were outnumbered and they are good so it was a short (and laggy but thats another thing) battle.
I havent checked since but i guess that they took simmons later, anyway this isnt going to be a "bohoo we lost the fight"-thing because they should have won even earlier when we were waiting at Simmons.
Now my problem:
During the whole time last night i couldnt get rid of the feeling that what we do dont matter because they will get it back later when we leave for bed. I cant speak for everyone but i for one is in a OP fight for the fight not the ownership, and its to bad that we on Saturn have "slightly" unbalanced power on the TG vs TT scale. What i see is going to happen is that people of TG get tired of owning everything and some or (god forbid) all goes to a CA friendly faction and then saturn will be screwed totally.
Ok, again i want to say that this isnt a bitch because i dont want to loose, in fact if the TG clan had taken the fight from the beginning when we all were waiting i wouldnt have had this problem because i would have gotten a nice fight altough i assume we had lost anyway =)
A possible fix to the "problem" is to force the defending clan/faction to come and defend and that could be some sort of rule that stated that if the new clan has the possesion of the OP for ... say.. 1 hour it would be unhackable for the next 23 hours...
NOTE: This is not a real suggestion just an example.
And finally to the question of the poll:
Should OP ownership be tweaked in some way??
Yes
No
Other - I posted my "non-flamable" thoughts below
Peace
/Surfer
Saturn
what about people who ninja hack as such at night this would leave the op unusable for people who fight for it
in fact if the TG clan had taken the fight from the beginning when we all were waiting i wouldnt have had this problem because i would have gotten a nice fight altough i assume we had lost anyway =)
if your talking about new dawn we turned up about 5 min after you hacked the first layer
I thought it was CM who we were fighting? I don't remember killing any TTs, and if I remember correctly the mercs were giving us a good run for our money. :)
If it was us, then one of the things you have to consider is we are always getting dragged into OP wars. We accept that it comes with the turf when you own a lot of OPs, but the problem is that the same clan will just attack us, fight, die, get poked, come back, fight, die etc. until they have the OP. This same situation caused drop rules on Jupiter to change in warzones, and NDA had a go at bringing this up, though I hadn't really seen their point of view at the time. The thing is, after fighting solidly for 6 hours, sometimes you want a bit of a break. :p
Come to think of it, Simmons is on the other side of the world from us, and it's likely that we had taken from an enemy clan earlier. If you want a response from us, try taking an OP near TG like Grant. :D
it was later on scilkar, i think it could be a good idea to have drop rules in a war zone now
++ no sl loss just belt drops
Helen Angilley
10-08-03, 13:53
Yup, it does need tweaking.
People, from what I've seen, don't get Outposts because "they're strong and able to defend them" (If they can defend the Outposts then why do they get so screechy when someone points out that their Outpost/Outposts have been taken?), they just get the Outposts to compensate for other short-comings.
Hell, when was the last time you saw an Outpost being used anyway?
Yeah youre right about the ninja hack thing but i dont stated that i had the solution i wanted to find out if it was only me that had a problem with things as it is now...
And yes i was talking about ND but i didnt mean when we were at Jeriko, you acted just fine then, i was talking about when we were at Simmons and you were gathering at Point Red and the only thing we saw was a stealt sniper at the horizon. yeah i know that Simmons wasnt yours from the beginning (i think anyway) but you were preparing for a fight never the less.
Why do you think we went for Jeriko =)
Peace
/Surfer
Saturn
Didn't KK have the idea of exp loss for death in warzones a while back? Now that I think about it, that doesn't seem so bad. Almost everyone's capped in an OP fight anyway so it would make them still do a bit of PvM from time to time, and as long as it's scaled right there shouldn't be a problem, like 1 death won't matter but if you keep coming back and dying you'll lose 1 or 2 levels?
Whatever server, whatever clans, the whole situation needs to be changed with outposts.
Doesn't anyone get the feeling of victory anymore? I know I don't.
Yes you may end up beating your enemy over an outpost you hacked or they attacked, but after its all over and you leave that outpost, either logging for sleep or other things, that you end up getting it hacked anyway, it kinda makes the outpost fight worthless in a way, where is the Victory?
I was talking to some people the other day, and we all agreed that taking over an outpost should be a whole lot harder, things like:
1. Faction guards that you can hire to protect your op.
2. New turrets that fire through walls inside the op "Sonic blast" - "would stop ninja monks and such taking out turrets"
3. Longer time to hack an outpost, instead of 3 mins, make it 10 mins to hack it, extend the time between each hack to say 3 mins instead of 30secs. "That would make the waiting around part less tedious"
4. Ownership "who is the winner" once you got an op that took you long enough to hack it and had ot fight for it, that op belongs to you for a set time, its unhackable for say 6 hours RL time or something, that at least would be something towards a "Victory" knowing when you log of to sleep, its not going to be ninja hacked
Yes there is that word again "ninja" KK you added in the 3 hacker rule, now most clans got those 3 hackers and ninja hacking is back to its old ways.
Lately I really do feel that the fight for an outpost is not worth the outpost, its just a fight to me, if we keep the outpost for what their worth it only gets hacked back anyway. So either remove outposts and give us arena type areas to battle it out, or change the way clans hold onto their ops.
Right now end game for us lot is PVP over outposts and to me right now its a bit shitty and just thrown together in a hap hazard way.
nda must be noobs then, no one bothers to ninja hack us if we win because they know its not worth it,
btw helen we do use our ops and so do our faction in them so stfu noob
Didn't KK have the idea of exp loss for death in warzones a while back? Now that I think about it, that doesn't seem so bad. Almost everyone's capped in an OP fight anyway so it would make them still do a bit of PvM from time to time, and as long as it's scaled right there shouldn't be a problem, like 1 death won't matter but if you keep coming back and dying you'll lose 1 or 2 levels?
Absolutly brilliant idea, it would make people stop coming back after a while, but 2 things.
1. People hate to lvl "there just isnt enough good places to lvl up"
2. It still wont stop them taking an op over night when your logged off.
KRIMINAL99
10-08-03, 15:01
Dude Im sorry but the OP thing gets more and more rediculous every patch. First you gotta hack 3 times, then you gotta hack with 3 seperate hackers... Now you want a 24 hour waiting period? Look dude if you can't hold an OP you can't hold an OP... On Uranus the OP's are split between a million small clans. On saturn there is are huge clans with lots of people in them that control most of the OP's. The benefit of these huge clans is that they can defend/conquer OPs with signifigant numbers of people all day long because as soon as one runner gets tired and logs another comes on. On the other hand big clans like that are really hard to run and keep together. If you want to have a chance against them to keep OPs your gonna have to make just as big a clan. And btw... NEWS FLASH If a clan is hacking when you aren't there after you fought them and won earlier then chances are they are a bigger clan than yours and you wouldn't have been able to beat them if THEY were all there at once. Which means YOU were the one who "ninja hacked" (in a sense) first.
If anything where to change about OP fights I think the best (and most logical) idea would be to put faction NPC's at the site of conquered OPs (like they do on Venus). Maybe you get little magic NPC seeds that you can use to place guards around the OP. Maybe even the number you get (or strength) could depend on your factions current income or status in the world.
It only makes sense that a faction would guard their OP's as opposed to just leaving automated security there. Heck even in real life leaving just turrets to defend something is asking for someone to figure out some way to bypass or destroy them easily. No real player is gonna stand around the OP all day cause they don't get paid for it like they would in real life lol. So NPCs should be used for this job.
I can only hope that KK has learned their lesson about listening to selfish biased opinions about "TEH WAY THINGS OUTTA BE" after completely ruining the game with their qb drop lock.
Exp loss sounds like a good idea.
Dropping belts seems like a complete pile of steaming shit idea to me, but I guess that is just my opinion. Dropping belts, in my eyes, will see no one turning up at op wars, or using a variety of weapons if they do.
Exp loss means those who have capped and hit the 'dead end' may lose a level or two in extended fights, and actually have to do some PvM for a change. :p
btw helen we do use our ops and so do our faction in them so stfu noob
Agreed.
On Uranus the OP's are split between a million small clans.
Huh? You playing on the same server I am? I see OPs held by uTs, Synchs, SSC, Syndicate, Roughnecks, d5g, RDZ, and Regulators. Hardly small clans there. I think RDZ is the smallest with only 50-some members.
Helen Angilley
10-08-03, 19:27
Originally posted by Ste-X
nda must be noobs then, no one bothers to ninja hack us if we win because they know its not worth it,
btw helen we do use our ops and so do our faction in them so stfu noob
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:rolleyes:
Do you use every single Outpost? Even that one is out of the way of any "real" location and doesn't give benefits of real value?
Plus do you keep them 24/7? Or are one of those "if people can take outposts they deserve them....even though I mouth off about said previous owners not being able to defend the Outpost" people?
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Look dude if you can't hold an OP you can't hold an OP
Dude. NDA is proly the #1 clan on pluto, and even they can't hold ops FOREVER. It will always get ninja hacked, and they have to hack it back. Unless you have 20 members online ALL THE TIME(in which case they need to get a life) you just cna't protect an op all the time. And that's a problem with the way ops were designed, not the clans.
I agree with Anima, ops just weren't done well overall IMO.
Please don't do belt drops, that will mean the end of op wars for me. My equipment is more valuable then any op and I will always drop it. So if I'm going to risk dropping a belt at an op war, then I just won't be going to the op war. I wish people could sit in a ppu's shoes for a day before they come up with these ideas. I can't even draw a comparison because it would be somthing silly like imagine a Tank had to carry around 6 weapons in his quickbelt each 3-5 slotted. Furthermore he had to carry 10 more weapons that can only be bought in the store and another 10 or so 2-3 slotted weapons in his inventory. Then throw in some multislotted rares, about 4 or so. See how silly that sounds, but thats exactly what a ppu has to do. The amount of work to replace my spells far outweighs any enjoyment I would gain in an op fight.
I didn't understand wth the players on Jupiter were thinking, and I still don't. There are two opposing ideals that need to be balanced for enjoyable op wars. On one side we should be encouraging people to fight for ops, the risks taken should be balanced with the gain of ownin an op. There should also be fluidity, if thats even a word, were ops do not stay stagnant under a few big clan's control. Clans should have to fight for their ops, they should not be given an easy time. On the other hand op wars should be fun and meaningful. As Yoda said, any enjoyment in a victory at an op battle dissapears when your enemy hacks it right back later on. What exactly did I fight for? I gained nothing because the op was lost as soon as I left. There needs to be something to encourage longterm holding of ops.
As you can see these ideals are quite opposed to each other. It comes down to Big clans vs Small clans. We want to improve small clan's ability to fight in op wars so the world doesn't become stagnant and boring. Yet we also want to improve Big clans ability to hold onto an op. I don't have an answer to this, but please keep in mind the consequences of what you ask. Most of the proposals here are aimed at increases a Big Clan's ability to hold onto their ops. This will mean less fighting, less challenging the Big Clan since who would want to contest their power unless you're a Big Clan yourself? This will just lead to a few power clans controlling the map and noone else having a chance... oops isn't that where we're at already? They'll have even less people contesting their power if we do this though. Maybe they'll get bored and break up, that would be an improvement.
I have several wishes myself for op wars, thought they lean both ways. I am in a large clan, though we're on a server were there are also other large clans. In comparison I guess we would be considered a small clan since we rarely control more then 4 or 6 ops. So I can see both sides of the argument, as a small clan I hate how a couple clans control almost all the map, as a large clan I hate that small clans pop up and steal our ops when I log off. We have the force to crush them if we ever catch them, but theres nothing we can do.
I believe ops should be EXPENSIVE to hold. A game I once played which involved colonizing other worlds and building up an empire to fight other space empires, colonizing was hugely expensive! It took a huge initial investment and then a continued investment until the colony finnaly reached self sufficiency and could start to payback the monumental debt. That's how I would imagine ops should be. Rather then give money they should take money, though it should go down over time. The idea is your clan saves up money, goes after an op and spends alot, then during the next several days they still pay an upkeep, but that price goes down steadily. So that if they can hold the op for 4 or so days, they'll have proved ownership. Then the flow can reverse and the op will start to bring in money for the clan. Think about what this would mean. You would actualy have to consider wether capturing a 6th op is worthwhile economicly. Can your clan support the new op both in terms of holding it long enough to start earning money and in terms of the available cash needed to keep the op running initialy. This would strongly discourage one clan from taking half the map. Yet those ops that you do own, you would value them much more. If you don't go and fight for your clan's ops then your clan looses a huge investment of money. This will also increase the value of having tradeskillers in your clan, since dedicated tradeskillers are the key to making money. If you don't organize your clan and work for it, you'll stay poor and never be able to control an op. The prices I'm imagining would hafta be expensive enough that clans which have 100+ mil would be hesitant. The goal I would imagine is for each clan to own at most 6 ops, that's a reasonable number to me. A clan that owns 6 ops should be spending so much money they'd go bankrupt if they didnt continualy work to make new money. I'm sure there are problems with this idea, like I said I can't really imagine a perfect system that acomidates both sides.
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Do you use every single Outpost? Even that one is out of the way of any "real" location and doesn't give benefits of real value?
Plus do you keep them 24/7? Or are one of those "if people can take outposts they deserve them....even though I mouth off about said previous owners not being able to defend the Outpost" people?
We keep all of the canyon OPs 24/7. If any Op from Grant to Eastgate gets attacked we fight for it. The OPs we take in order to deny them to our enemies, but we know we can't hold them so we let them go after a while. But a quick look at the map with faction colours on shows the TG OPs all being around TG. Its the mercs who control OPs like Crest which are miles away from their base.
I voted yes.. and here's how i forsee a good tweaking...
first of all the 2 min between hacks is too short it needs to be extended to about 5 min for the second layer and 8 min for the third layer(no wait time for the first layer just like now). Also the ownership should only be able to be changed within the first 15 minutes of the attacking clan taking the op from the defensive clan... after that the op should be closed off for 1 day(maybe a lil shorter) this would prevent the defensive clan from thinking oh we will jsut take it back tonight when they go to sleep... they would have to wait a whole day if they didnt act promptly. the senario would go like this.
2 sides attacking clan and defensive clan.
Att Clan initiates hack and gets the first layer down. Message is sent to defensive clan saying sed op is underattack. Att clan has to wait 5 minutes to hack the next layer. in this time def clan is mobilizing either in the ug or at another op in the distance. after 5 minutes def clan hasnt shown up yet.. att clan initiates hack 2 for the second layer. hack sucessful layer 2 down... gotta wait 8 minutes for the next layer to be hacked... in this time the def clan has begun retaliation from the ug and a few are outside the op aoeing in... this is a battle that wont take long cause the def clan is splitt. the att clan has managed to hold against the def clan's attack. the def clan is regrouping at the nearby op they own... getting pokes and what not. Now at the same time that the att clan initiates hack 3 on the op and retains it the def clan rushes in and kills everyone. if they can get the first layer down by the before 15min have passed then they get get another 5 minutes to hack the next layer and 5 min after that to hack the last layer. however they have to fight off the attacking clan. Also if they cant do it in 15 min then the op goes on lockdown for 24 hours (or a little less) and they have to wait til tomorrow. What do u guyz think?
I would love belt drops in warzones.
I think the construction quality cap for ppu spells should be listed, and ppu spells should be reduced in cost at the store also.
KRIMINAL99
10-08-03, 22:15
Originally posted by Arcadius
Dude. NDA is proly the #1 clan on pluto, and even they can't hold ops FOREVER. It will always get ninja hacked, and they have to hack it back. Unless you have 20 members online ALL THE TIME(in which case they need to get a life) you just cna't protect an op all the time. And that's a problem with the way ops were designed, not the clans.
I agree with Anima, ops just weren't done well overall IMO.
Yeah so noone can hold OPs forever. So what? No one has the right to because they don't have the resources. It actually wouldnt be impossible because if you had 500 people in your clan from all around the world then you could hold them indefinitely. But as long as noone can, then noone should be able too.
My point is they shouldnt artificially give clans the ability to hold OPs when they really dont have the resources to by making a 24 hour waiting period or whatever else.
People seem to forget that this game is made for thousands of people to play. Just because some clan has grown to be one of the biggest on the server at that time doesn't mean it has some unalienable right to hold any OPs for extended periods of time. If you can't defend it, its not yours anymore. And I mean that in a every second it can be lost if you cant defend it right then way.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Yeah so noone can hold OPs forever. So what? No one has the right to because they don't have the resources. It actually wouldnt be impossible because if you had 500 people in your clan from all around the world then you could hold them indefinitely. But as long as noone can, then noone should be able too.
My point is they shouldnt artificially give clans the ability to hold OPs when they really dont have the resources too.
meh? I partially agree. I think holding multiple ops is unrealistic. I think you should be able to hold at least ONE op indefinitely. But ops shouldn't be near useless laggy structures like they are now. I like carinth's idea of being able to spend money on the op and build it up etc..........
Their could be so much done with it.
KRIMINAL99
10-08-03, 22:21
But noone has the right to "own" an op. The only thing that ever made it somewhat "theirs" to begin with is because at the time they captured it they had the most resources there just then. If 2 seconds later a clan with more people on shows up and takes it then its not theres anymore- Weather the clan has more people or just more people on right at that moment.
The only thing that every faction has indefinitely is their starting city/area. There aren't enough OPs for every clan that someone ever makes to own one indefinitely...
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
But noone has the right to "own" an op. The only thing that ever made it somewhat "theirs" to begin with is because at the time they captured it they had the most resources there just then. If 2 seconds later a clan with more people on shows up and takes it then its not theres anymore- Weather the clan has more people or just more people on right at that moment.
I know, i'm saying that I think that should be changed.
KRIMINAL99
10-08-03, 22:24
Originally posted by Arcadius
I know, i'm saying that I think that should be changed.
But why? Who would have the right to own an OP indefinitely? How would they have earned that right over all the other clans in the game? Why is that justified?
The answer is IMO noone has that right unless they earn it by always having enough resources to defend it- which would be very difficult to do. Thats why more than one or 2 clans get chances to own OPs in this game.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
But why?
it will be fun and more "end game" content for high level PvPers.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Who would have the right to own an OP indefinitely?
Every clan. If you can hold at least ONE clan indefinitely presuming you have the large financial resources that should be required, then there's more than enough ops to go around.
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Why is that justified?
huh?
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
The answer is IMO noone has that right unless they earn it by always having enough resources to defend it- which would be very difficult to do. Thats why more than one or 2 clans get chances to own OPs in this game.
No one has enough resources to 100% ALWAYS keep an op. It's always possible for it to be ninja hacked by whatever means as long as the main problem remains, which is not enough clan members on. Peeople sleep you know. They work. They eat. THey have lives.
KRIMINAL99
10-08-03, 22:42
Arc your not quite getting what Im saying.
Count the number of clans, then count the number of OPs.
Anyways I used to play on Pluto in this big clan, and there was another big clan that was mostly japanese people. We constantly hacked OPs back and forth from each other. When we went to sleep, they were all on. When we were all on, they were asleep. Both the clans kept accusing the other of "NINJA HACKING"
Thats absolutely rediculous... There is NO SUCH THING AS NINJA HACKING. IF YOU DONT HAVE THE RESOURCES TO KEEP AN OP AT THAT SPECIFIC TIME YOU DONT DESERVE IT. The game does not revolve around you. The game does not revolve around any one clan.
How would making people unable to hack OPs add more end game content or be more fun?
Weather a clan can capture or hold OP's is a measure of a clans usefulness. Its not "certain clans are just uber so they should never be able to lose thier OPS" Thats bass ackwards. And even if that wasn't the case whose gonna decide which clans are uber enough to have the right to hold an OP indefinitely? (Ill give you a hint. Its not whatever clan you happen to be in is the best and should have all the OPs)
Im not arguing with you that people sleep and work... Im arguing with you that people don't have the right to keep their OP when they aren't able to be there to defend it. And why is that justified means why should any clan have an OP handed to them 24/7 over any other clan?
What is it your trying to say? That a new OP should be created every time a new clan is made?
Kriminal, you keep saying if a clan can't protect an op 24/7 that they dont deserve to keep it... well no clan can do that. Which makes your case kinda silly. Why not just say, no clan should own ops for any length of time. That's what you're saying. So alright, if you're not supposed to keep an op, what is the point of fighting for it? Why should I go put up a fight against Clan X that's trying to take my op? Wether I win or lose in the fight doesn't matter, I know they will come back later and take it. So I have no reason to fight. Instead I'll go hack someone else's op when they're not around... We'd end up avoiding fights unless we're bored and lookin for one.
KRIMINAL99
10-08-03, 23:54
Originally posted by Carinth
Kriminal, you keep saying if a clan can't protect an op 24/7 that they dont deserve to keep it... well no clan can do that. Which makes your case kinda silly. Why not just say, no clan should own ops for any length of time. That's what you're saying. So alright, if you're not supposed to keep an op, what is the point of fighting for it? Why should I go put up a fight against Clan X that's trying to take my op? Wether I win or lose in the fight doesn't matter, I know they will come back later and take it. So I have no reason to fight. Instead I'll go hack someone else's op when they're not around... We'd end up avoiding fights unless we're bored and lookin for one.
No, I said if they can't defend it 24/7 they dont deserve to keep it >>24/7<< They deserve to keep it only as long as they can hold it. Thats not silly, anything but that is silly and unfair. People hack OPs either cause they want to use it for a bit or they want to brag that their clan held this many OPs for this long.
Im 100% ok with belt drops in warzones _IF_ slot #1 safety is removed. If there is even a slim chance of getting the enemy to drop their 1-2 important items id be ok with dropping on of my 30. Yes its still massively unfair on ppus, but as we have a good defense. On a whole die less than any other class during outpost battles IF we dont get cocky.
The only bad thing about belts dropping in warzones is that people would play chicken. People atm fight with every single hitpoint they have. With belt drops in warzones, people would start running for the genrep at 100 hp =/
Vampire222
11-08-03, 00:18
belts in warzones = BS.... op wars re good at is
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
No, I said if they can't defend it 24/7 they dont deserve to keep it >>24/7<< They deserve to keep it only as long as they can hold it. Thats not silly, anything but that is silly and unfair. People hack OPs either cause they want to use it for a bit or they want to brag that their clan held this many OPs for this long.
You still havnt said what the point of ops are then. What is the purpose of taking an op? What makes it worthwhile? You don't intend on keeping it why take it?
Ok Kriminal i can get what you mean about if a clan dont have the people to guard/defend an OP 24/7 they dont deserve it, and i agree to a point...
But my main problem wasnt that the clan who took an OP should get to keep it, my main problem was to get a defending clan to come and defend instead of just waiting until people goes to bed and take it back even though they have people online at the time...
Before any New Dawn people goes balistic let me just say that YOU DID NOT do that in this case it was just how the whole op fight evening ended that got me thinking..
I havent any need to get this thread filled with clan specific crap im more interested in the problem, ok?
Peace
/Surfer
for you surfer
new dawn will turn up to every op fight we think will happen or has started but having to fight 3/4 good clans during the day when we do go to level or do other stuff when a small clan attacks we will not defend right away since normally 2/3 members will sort it, im sorry if we did not come as soon as you wanted but we got the job done
we hold ops.
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