View Full Version : Spy's need better defence and offence
General Crazy
07-08-03, 14:12
Defense:
I don't know if any one else has this problem but my High Tech Rifle Spy dies every 30 seconds. I take one hit it I slow to a crawl then it takes one or two more and it dies. I have 36 CON and 36 STR the only armor i can wear is all from the nOOb armor store Except the Medium Energy Belt. What Spies need is there own kind of armor, Not just PA.
Offense:
Every Rifle/High Tech Rifle I use even all Outstanding Quality does little compared to other weapon like Heavy weapon or PSI Spells. I can attack any monster with others around my rank even lower and I never so enough damn to get first access to the loot. I have tried ever weapon that i can use up to my Dex amount and nothing seem to work it does one of to thing very little damage and slow firing rate or very slow firing rate and some what ok damage and i reload my weapon about 3 times as much as a pistol user or Heavy Weapon user does. To top all the i see people with pistol that can shot almost as far or farther the 95% of the rifles only expection being the Sniper and it only has about a one and half time the range as some of the long range rifles when the stats say it sure have almost 3 times the distance and i still not far away so it get killed by allot of monsters, so what i have to do is take one or two shots and run for my life an hopes the monster stops trying to come after me spy so in hope i can get it set up to take one or two more shots then run away again.
Any idea and/or comments on this would be nice
yeah because tanks can also be constructors and researchers too.....:rolleyes: they should hav no defence like they do, if u dont like the way a spy gets pwned then dont be a spy.
Syntax-Error
07-08-03, 14:22
Hold on. i bet you complained about the Hybrids, if you didnt like the way Hybrids owned everything why did you go hybrid
No offense alig but that's a crock.
A spy cannot be a tradeskiller and a fighter at the same time anymore.
Yet spies are the masters of 3 (three) of the 6 (six)weapon types.
I can see that a tradeskill spy should be penalised in combat but there is no excuse for the gimpage of combat spies.
Spy's are stealthers/scouts and tradeskillers. Rifle's can seriously own under the correct settings, RoG, PE and Disruptor can all be bloody painfull, the reason spy's are weak is becuse they are scientists, they have weak frames etc because they have been learning stuff most their life, go to the charachter creation screen and it takes you through each of these.
One thing that Spy's have over everyone else is the fact that you can get a hard target on just about everyone within the clipping range, with a tank, try shooting someone not even half that distance :rolleyes:
Spy's have the advantage of 100 INT, which means you can take a tradeskill or 2 if your in a clan with OPs and you can also still take a damn good ammount of weapon lore...
General Crazy
07-08-03, 14:26
Originally posted by alig
yeah because tanks can also be constructors and researchers too.....:rolleyes: they should hav no defence like they do, if u dont like the way a spy gets pwned then dont be a spy.
you can't level with trade skills anymore so if killing mobs is only real way a spy can level they should aleast be able to stand a chance. spending 20 minutes waiting for SI to wear off then and getting implants put back and getting everything set up in quickbelt to only die 30 seconds later to have to start that all over again.
Originally posted by General Crazy
you can't level with trade skills anymore so if killing mobs is only real way a spy can level they should aleast be able to stand a chance. spending 20 minutes waiting for SI to wear off then and getting implants put back and getting everything set up in quickbelt to only die 30 seconds later to have to start that all over again.
3 minutes for SL to wear off from a GR, my spy tanks a WB down just as quick as my tank, plus my spy never gets shot back asn he's 5km away :rolleyes:
lemme guess your the guy i was in the chaos caves with lastnight, running right upto the mob's as a spy using his TAR and raygun rifle, right into the line of fire of 4 tanks with Mal's then threw the biggest sissy fit ever when he died, accusing tanks of being retarded meatheads and the PPU for having shite buffs... next time he died we left him on the ground :lol:
Originally posted by jernau
No offense alig but that's a crock.
A spy cannot be a tradeskiller and a fighter at the same time anymore.
Yet spies are the masters of 3 (three) of the 6 (six)weapon types.
I can see that a tradeskill spy should be penalised in combat but there is no excuse for the gimpage of combat spies.
Yeah i know u cant be a tradeskiller and a combat spy but the name says it all and the con and str lvl ....just think about it, do tanks complain cuz they cant use stealth? or anything a spy _can_ use ? nope, well i dont anyway! so why should a spy be able to use _our_(tanks) stuff if we cant use there's SPYS are NOT a fighting class therefore they shouldnt be able to take alot of damage!
General Crazy
07-08-03, 14:30
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
lemme guess your the guy i was in the chaos caves with lastnight, running right upto the mob's as a spy using his TAR and raygun rifle, right into the line of fire of 4 tanks with Mal's then threw the biggest sissy fit ever when he died, accusing tanks of being retarded meatheads and the PPU for having shite buffs... next time he died we left him on the ground :lol:
nope never been to the chaos caves
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
3 minutes for SL to wear off from a GR, my spy tanks a WB down just as quick as my tank
I agree with the other points but that's not true. My non-capped tank can drop many times quicker than my capped droner or rifler can. Safety is inded an issue but you can't say the damage is even close.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 14:35
Originally posted by alig
Yeah i know u cant be a tradeskiller and a combat spy but the name says it all and the con and str lvl ....just think about it, do tanks complain cuz they cant use stealth? or anything a spy _can_ use ? nope, well i dont anyway! so why should a spy be able to use _our_(tanks) stuff if we cant use there's SPYS are NOT a fighting class therefore they shouldnt be able to take alot of damage!
last time i check the requirements for Stealth only High lvl capped spies can use it and PSI's have way better Defence then Spies do
Originally posted by jernau
I agree with the other points but that's not true. My non-capped tank can drop many times quicker than my capped droner or rifler can. Safety is inded an issue but you can't say the damage is even close.
with a tank, your right on the front line, average warbot which you go toe to toe with on a tank w/ speed gun or CS will probably get shot 4-5 times which after that your kinda on the edge of needing a heal, Including the time it takes to heal and stuff on a tank its about equal as my spy doesent need to as he's too far away to get shot...
alig, have u ever tried a spy?
lol who am i kidding, of course not.
us spies dont want uber armor and resists, we just want something so we dont die from a fucking scorpion (i got experience on the whole scorpion deal).
and a spy couldnt tradeskill and fight at the same time, so dont worry.
Originally posted by Itth
alig, have u ever tried a spy?
lol who am i kidding, of course not.
us spies dont want uber armor and resists, we just want something so we dont die from a fucking scorpion (i got experience on the whole scorpion deal).
and a spy couldnt tradeskill and fight at the same time, so dont worry.
......Uranus - Tank - alig - 58/63, Fully capped
Uranus - Monk - Ricky - 49/54
Uranus - PE - 13th--Ghost 55/62......
u see my spy?.
No i dont give a shit if u dont like dying of mobs, u aint supposed to live long, thats the whole idea of the class ffs! theres no point moaning and groaning becuase 'ooooo spys are to weak' they ARE MENT TO BE WEAK!!!:mad:
Originally posted by alig
Yeah i know u cant be a tradeskiller and a combat spy but the name says it all and the con and str lvl ....just think about it, do tanks complain cuz they cant use stealth? or anything a spy _can_ use ? nope, well i dont anyway! so why should a spy be able to use _our_(tanks) stuff if we cant use there's SPYS are NOT a fighting class therefore they shouldnt be able to take alot of damage!
I don't want to use tank stuff on my spy - it's too big and I have to use 3rd person :p
"Spies are not a fighting class"????
Let's review :
Melee - Tanks
Pistols - Spies
Rifles - Spies
Heavy - Tanks
Drones - Spies
Psi - Monkeys
Based on that Spies are more combat oriented than tanks.
I'm not seriously suggesting we should be "teh uber fight0r" or whatever but it is silly that the class with the most weapons available to them has both the worst armour and the least damage.
IMO they should give spies Duranit back - it was invented for them after all. It's still worse than Tank/Monk armour but it offers some chance of survival.
They also need to un-gimp the weapons but that's harder to do as PEs also use them and it would make them too strong if not done carefully.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 14:49
Originally posted by Itth
alig, have u ever tried a spy?
lol who am i kidding, of course not.
us spies dont want uber armor and resists, we just want something so we dont die from a fucking scorpion (i got experience on the whole scorpion deal).
and a spy couldnt tradeskill and fight at the same time, so dont worry.
being on servers with 75% highlevel or Capped runners tradeskills are useless when you are not a highlevel runner because you can't do anything with them because everyone wants higher level Tradeskills
my Rifle Spy baselevels are INT 55, STR 36, CON 36, DEX 57 and PSI 10
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
with a tank, your right on the front line, average warbot which you go toe to toe with on a tank w/ speed gun or CS will probably get shot 4-5 times which after that your kinda on the edge of needing a heal, Including the time it takes to heal and stuff on a tank its about equal as my spy doesent need to as he's too far away to get shot...
hmm, I see what you're saying if you count in the time to heal up after the fight but that's not usually a big deal IMO. I tend to just cast heal sanctum and heal then look for the next bot. By the time I find it I'm healed. Also as a spy you can't just charge them on sight, you need to find cover and make sure you won't get another one spawn on your head which takes time too.
APU monks are supposed to be weaker than spies. (so ive heard)
yet they have 5 more levels of CON, and armor who gives them shitloads of energy resist.
dont get me wrong here all teh monkehs, i dont want apu nerfed.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 14:55
Originally posted by jernau
hmm, I see what you're saying if you count in the time to heal up after the fight but that's not usually a big deal IMO. I tend to just cast heal sanctum and heal then look for the next bot. By the time I find it I'm healed. Also as a spy you can't just charge them on sight, you need to find cover and make sure you won't get another one spawn on your head which takes time too.
most times when you get in to position someone else has come along and killed that bot
Originally posted by jernau
I don't want to use tank stuff on my spy - it's too big and I have to use 3rd person :p
"Spies are not a fighting class"????
Let's review :
Melee - Tanks
Pistols - Spies
Rifles - Spies
Heavy - Tanks
Drones - Spies
Psi - Monkeys
Based on that Spies are more combat oriented than tanks.
Not really....if u properly reviewed it it would be sumthing like this, effective that is, whether its better or not is a different story.....
Melee - Tanks
Pistols - Spies
Rifles - Spies
Heavy - Tanks
Drones - Spies
Psi - Monkeys
pistol - tanks
rifle - tanks
we hav base 70 dex, thats only 10 less than a PE so work the math and we aint _that_ much weaker than a pe....we would just need our weapons to be ub3r instead of just good! :)
Originally posted by alig
just think about it, do tanks complain cuz they cant use stealth? or anything a spy _can_ use ? nope, well i dont anyway! so why should a spy be able to use _our_(tanks) stuff if we cant use there's SPYS are NOT a fighting class therefore they shouldnt be able to take alot of damage!
lol, what a lousy argument. Why the hell would tanks complain about anything a spy uses? one who plays a tank would be mad if he complains about him not having what spies have.
Let's see, what do spies have that a tank could be jealous of... is it their great defense? is it their uber armor? the only thing you could possibly want is their stealth tool, but you don't need it, you have great defense and offense, and they don't (oh, and their xray suit, maybe, but as I said, you don't need it and they do). That's why the stealth tool was implemented - so spies wouldn't die so much.
I don't play a spy, yet I feel General Crazy's pain. Spies are too weak and should be given with something to improve their defense. Maybe raise their PSI cap to 25 instead of 20 so they could use a shelter, I dunno.
lol anyway, spy PA is coming soon, hopefully pants helmets and boots with it :) so im not gonna whine..
oh for the record, i have a str capped tank, and i thought spies where fine until i tried one..
greendonkeyuk
07-08-03, 15:05
Well,
to an extent, youre both correct. If we spies werent meant for battle then they shouldve called us Merchants or something. They didnt, they called us spies and gave us access to some of the best guns in the game! :eek:
However, to balance us out, they give us the shittiest armour possible and the lowest constitution, we are basically the non-monk equivalent of the Apu. Kick ass attack, piss poor defence. However, as with monks we have a great weakness to damage due to our low constitution levels and the armour we can wear.
I mean, we get 40 strength, most of which (if anyone has any sense) will go into resist force and transport, melee spy o_O it doesnt work. Trust me. Ive done it. :lol:
At this strength level, we get only battlevest armour, which protects against..... err piercin and force, so ok, a pe/spy with a pain easer or libby is the only thing we can defend against..... even then it better be no slotted! We have no con points for any kind of resists AT ALL, if we want to run fast etc.
There is no point in trying to work out a resist formula in general that will allow you to resist damage, as a spy, you aint supposed to get hit dude!!
A spies mentality should be if i get hit im dead. This is the way we have to be. We got heavy belts at higher intel levels of course, which is nice, but we need some more low end armour that resists something other than piercing/force as we got enough of this as it is.
Stealth was a god send. You gotta get yourself one mate, its hit and run, stealth shoot, stealth shoot, stealth shoot. If you dont kill your opponent you will piss him off enough that he will clear off if done correctly.
Imo as a spy, we need either
A: some armour specifically designed for us
(spy pa is coming so we can wait for that before commenting further)
B: a stat line increase/armour reqs decrease
just even 5 points of strength would help..... light inq boots would help. Or possibly, they could fix our psi..... so that we are the second best psi in the game...... i mean, if we had access to shelter that would be something, perhaps 40-45 psi.
I dont want access to blessed buffs here but heat/hazard 1 wouldnt go a miss. I forget the reqs on these as im at work right now, perhaps a jiggling around of the reqs on these would be ok. So that we can use the resist boosters but not the bad ass shelters and stuff. I dont want ppu defence and apu offence (albeit with a rifle) as then wed be the new hybrids and that would get the tanks bitchin!!!
Admittedly wed need to sacrifice something from elsewhere to get these points, personally id prefer to lose maybe 5 dex and 15 intel to gain this bonus if i had to lose anything at all that is. Id rather all of the other classes get a boost too actually rather than a nerf but again, this has been hinted at in DOY.
Regards to tactics mate, it sounds like youre plowing into youre opponent with a tank mentality. You shouldnt do this. What weapons do you use?
IF youre not droner then go rifle, pistol spy is a swine to play (from experience) due to range, a spies best friend, so go rifle for definate.
As a spy you can use any rifle in the game so dont be afraid to go tryin em all out. Dependant on your dex level, id go for any rifle except the gatlin rifle, as you gotta basically get into pistol range to use it!
Gatlin rifle: range sucks nice damage though as its an auto weapon
Fusion rifle: is ok at long range due to damage bonus, but shorter range carry a back up.
Assault rifle: is nice but stops at tl 44 then its pain easer
Plasma Rifle: is good, again short ranged but she packs a mean punch if you can land most of your shots.
Laser rifle: the tangent epic one is good for pvm, due to the range on it and accuracy you can snipe warbots without em knowing where you are/reacting to you..... 8|
Pulse laser rifle: didnt test it enough when it came out im afraid, was already on rares by then.
Sniper rifle: if theyve fixed the problems it potentially can own, however binned mine after they nerfed the ammo.....
Basically, id get the tangent epic if you can for long range, then maybe plasma rifle/assault rifle for short range, use those until you can get a pain easer as that owns at all ranges..... then go up through the rares from there.
ghandisfury
07-08-03, 15:05
This is just what I figured......General, you are extreamly low lvl. Even a tank would die quick with your stats. LvL for another month, then tell come back and tell me what you think. My spy can kill a war bot in under a minute without getting hit.
Spys are not meant to be played like tanks. Just like they aren't meant to be played like monks or PE's. And just FYI a spy can be a 150+ tradeskiller and still be a VERY effective fighter.
10 less than a PE, 30 less than a spy. Big difference.
My point is that I don't understand where people get this "spies should be weak" stuff from - we are not supposed to be front-line fighters, that's what KK actually said. Most people take that to mean we are poorly armoured and I agree but if that's the case it must also mean we do the most damage - that's what balancing means.
Syntax-Error
07-08-03, 15:07
u aint supposed to live long, thats the whole idea of the class ffs! theres no point moaning and groaning becuase 'ooooo spys are to weak' they ARE MENT TO BE WEAK!!!
When you show me a place that KK have stated that i will accept your word and not argue
Why not gievn Tanks stealth, hi intelligence, 100 dex points and 100 psi. So we can heal up, cast like a demon and nver die.
Then give spy more strength, higher cons and they can heal up wear armour and then die.
Hey why not nerf all chars, created a super char with the same clothes as everyone else, same eyes colours and hair and assign them a number. Then we are all equal. Then cause we are all equal, when we get to level 45 we will get a CS, Stealth, Some PE toys and monk stuff...
Then we are still all equal.....
Well if you are gonna complain about such things here is a thing to think about.....
2 Spys and a tank went out last night hunting bots.
Guess what Mine was the lowest character, and did not die once (I explain why i had to stay alive)
The other spy died 3 times and the tank 1.
The reason I couldn't die is cause my alt is the Rezzer. Yes No one to rezz me, so I was carefull. I did get hit a few time, health droppped to 60. But i bit the bullet and moved on
If you want to whine about the spy thing how is this for an idea.....
You have 1 set exp points..... So you start with 10 exp points. You decide if they go into Psi, Str, Cons , dex .....
These pints can not be lommed. The more in 1 skill will determine the way your exp is shared. The higher your point allocation is in str the quicker that will level.
Then you have the sub point attributes tooo.....This is the way a game similar to Diablo worked (Can't rember the name)... Start off as a nothing and then as you gain and attribute exp you become a specialist in that field .....
Originally posted by General Crazy
most times when you get in to position someone else has come along and killed that bot
Try hunting in the sectors east and n/ne of mb or if your tg out in f10 area, rarely other people about to pk or steal wbs, if you use rifles use your rng with cover, find a hill as far away as poss (TAR) prob best at your lvl. Shoot the wb untill it starts to get too close or you are about to die, then fall back heal and if need be move to more cover. At your lvl it will take a while but should be easy enough to stay alive. depending on your imp set-up you might be able to use med energy belt giving you better defense. If you can find a ppu your lvl to lvl with, he should be able to rezz, dmg boost etc, mabey while lvling pick one type of mob...energy poison or fire, and spec your resists around it for now :)
Also if your finding people can fire further than you with pistols you NEED more wep lore, if your full combat you'll want about 150+ eventually but for now around 100 should be fine.
Also on the dmg issue are you capping your weapons?
@ghandisfury - a 150+ tradeskiller can never cut it as a rifler or droner so that only leaves pistols. Pistols are close range therefore not a good idea for a spy considering our armour and CON.
@crest - The "your defense should suck" argument only holds water if our offence is excellent. It isn't though - it's terrible.
greendonkeyuk
07-08-03, 15:28
how many people on this thread have a high ranking (not necessarily capped) spy?
General Crazy
07-08-03, 15:29
Originally posted by ghandisfury
This is just what I figured......General, you are extreamly low lvl. Even a tank would die quick with your stats. LvL for another month, then tell come back and tell me what you think. My spy can kill a war bot in under a minute without getting hit.
Spys are not meant to be played like tanks. Just like they aren't meant to be played like monks or PE's. And just FYI a spy can be a 150+ tradeskiller and still be a VERY effective fighter.
ok in one day i got a tank to capped INT and PSI and higher STR and CON and DEX is only and couple Levels lower and I have been working my spy for about a month to get it to the levels it has. And the problem has to do with rifles being under powered at none high levels my first PE is started at same time but i put more time in to my char then he has can cause alot more damage and can take more hits and before i lommed to rifle from pistols his pistols did more damage even with me have more points in pistol and using a better pistol his dex has also leveled quicker in last couple days them mine has. It maybe different using high end rifles but I am no Low level i have 59 Dex with Implants.
Originally posted by jernau
10 less than a PE, 30 less than a spy. Big difference.
My point is that I don't understand where people get this "spies should be weak" stuff from - we are not supposed to be front-line fighters, that's what KK actually said. Most people take that to mean we are poorly armoured and I agree but if that's the case it must also mean we do the most damage - that's what balancing means.
well problem is we do way less damage too
General Crazy
07-08-03, 15:38
Originally posted by Cyphor
Try hunting in the sectors east and n/ne of mb or if your tg out in f10 area, rarely other people about to pk or steal wbs, if you use rifles use your rng with cover, find a hill as far away as poss (TAR) prob best at your lvl. Shoot the wb untill it starts to get too close or you are about to die, then fall back heal and if need be move to more cover. At your lvl it will take a while but should be easy enough to stay alive. depending on your imp set-up you might be able to use med energy belt giving you better defense. If you can find a ppu your lvl to lvl with, he should be able to rezz, dmg boost etc, mabey while lvling pick one type of mob...energy poison or fire, and spec your resists around it for now :)
Also if your finding people can fire further than you with pistols you NEED more wep lore, if your full combat you'll want about 150+ eventually but for now around 100 should be fine.
Also on the dmg issue are you capping your weapons?
I hunt with a group I hide behind hills anything with my vehicle so i can move quick but problem is i get one or two if lucky 3 shots from my sniper rifle and i have to move I also have LE chip in so Pker are not the problem
all my weapons are capped
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
how many people on this thread have a high ranking (not necessarily capped) spy?
I think people ought to know I am - I complain about it enough :).
FYI I currently have -
Capped droner
High level rifle spy
Pistol/CST spy
Near capped HC Tank
High level PPU
Near capped pistol PE
and a few others not worth mentioning.
I've played almost every possible class/skill combo in the game at some point (admittedly not to cap in most cases). I still enjoy spies the most because they suit my play-style but that doesn't change the fact they are the most gimped class in Neocron.
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
how many people on this thread have a high ranking (not necessarily capped) spy?
I have a droner/cst on pluto plus a tech rifle/hacker also on pluto along side my tank ofcourse. Then I have also got Draven on saturn, my 150 researcher/90hacker/rifle gimp =P all of them useing rares other than my newb tech rifle/hacker on pluto as that chars only 3 days old.
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
how many people on this thread have a high ranking (not necessarily capped) spy?
My spy isnt that high lvl but ive got a good idea of how to lvl him, he's lvl 102dex 8x int with imps, a droner who used rifles up untill about base 70 dex :p :)
think his rank is 66/53** or something
on topic:
Its made clear before you start a spy that they have a weak defense, and i only see a prob with this with pistols, however if you use tactics wbs etc are still easy from a decent lvl and anything else is too with a ppu. Rifles and droners cant really complain as they can use their range to solo just about anything in the wastelands, droners just about anything (although can cost alot :D )
(our clan constructor has no probs soloing wbs with wyatt and before that ryker napalm, and when ive played my ppu, we've solo'd swamp caves etc, and had no porblems.)
Edit: just read your post above general, have you tried towers etc? they can be good places to snipe from, also do the others in your team have a le in? If so then is there a ppu? If not is there a ppu with le out?
greendonkeyuk
07-08-03, 15:46
i figured you two would have, jernau and fenyx, its just the people who come onto threads and fill em with hot air that get to me.... you know what i mean.
General crazy if your weapons are capped and you still think youre underpowered with rifles then mate you just dust off your tank i think.
Spies take time to cap, because we are so fragile, once you do cap, properly set up, you will OWN with a capital O!
The word inbetween noob and cap is called PERSEVERANCE, with a spy you gotta have some!
General Crazy
07-08-03, 15:50
i see PSI doing 150+ damage every 2-3 seconds and they are around 10 lvls lower ranking and i am lucky i can do 150 damage in 10 - 20 seconds
Originally posted by General Crazy
Defense:
I don't know if any one else has this problem but my High Tech Rifle Spy dies every 30 seconds. I take one hit it I slow to a crawl then it takes one or two more and it dies. I have 36 CON and 36 STR the only armor i can wear is all from the nOOb armor store Except the Medium Energy Belt. What Spies need is there own kind of armor, Not just PA.
Offense:
Every Rifle/High Tech Rifle I use even all Outstanding Quality does little compared to other weapon like Heavy weapon or PSI Spells. I can attack any monster with others around my rank even lower and I never so enough damn to get first access to the loot. I have tried ever weapon that i can use up to my Dex amount and nothing seem to work it does one of to thing very little damage and slow firing rate or very slow firing rate and some what ok damage and i reload my weapon about 3 times as much as a pistol user or Heavy Weapon user does. To top all the i see people with pistol that can shot almost as far or farther the 95% of the rifles only expection being the Sniper and it only has about a one and half time the range as some of the long range rifles when the stats say it sure have almost 3 times the distance and i still not far away so it get killed by allot of monsters, so what i have to do is take one or two shots and run for my life an hopes the monster stops trying to come after me spy so in hope i can get it set up to take one or two more shots then run away again.
Any idea and/or comments on this would be nice
defence: use a heavy belt and battle 3 armor. piercing wont be a problem anymore ever. I can hunt in the TH cores where you have those gatlingbots. and walk through 5 of em laughing since they do 3 health damage a piece.
put a lot in body health
put in force resists
dont put in other resists
and change playing tacktics. a spy isnt supposed to take damage anyway. its not a tank. be sneaky and hide a lot. use cover and a sniper rifle and youll be fine
im rank /48 and i gank WBT's solo. try the same
I got a rank 64 Barter/Driver Spy on Pluto and do be honest, doing Barter seriously gimped his advancement. I lommed for hack once thinking that might improve his level gain but it didn't so I lommed back to Barter since it suits more what I want to be.
Still I still consider the Spy to be the weakest class in the game, I mean that in the idea of the weakest overall package. Unless you totally skill out the spy for PVP combat he'll have a hard time pulling his weight. Even PVM suffers when you take on a trade skill, simply because it takes longer to kill anything. Ultimately, when it comes time to go to an OP war, my whole job tends to be to harrass people, since I just can't do enough damage to actually kill them. (This might change when I get hold of a Silent Hunter)
I think I agree with Jernau's thoughts that spies should dish out more damage. Either way, combat minded spies should get a boost.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 16:04
Originally posted by Sanctus
defence: use a heavy belt and battle 3 armor. piercing wont be a problem anymore ever. I can hunt in the TH cores where you have those gatlingbots. and walk through 5 of em laughing since they do 3 health damage a piece.
well my char can't use any of those if you would have read my posts i don't have the lvls to use any of them. See problem is the weapon you can use as a capped charator but what i am trying to get across that all the rifles in between are very under powered compared to all the other weapons around the same lvl
Spys need to only 2 thinks
1.)Skill
2.)Int
greendonkeyuk
07-08-03, 16:07
Originally posted by Sanctus
defence: use a heavy belt and battle 3 armor. piercing wont be a problem anymore ever. I can hunt in the TH cores where you have those gatlingbots. and walk through 5 of em laughing since they do 3 health damage a piece.
put a lot in body health
put in force resists
dont put in other resists
and change playing tacktics. a spy isnt supposed to take damage anyway. its not a tank. be sneaky and hide a lot. use cover and a sniper rifle and youll be fine
im rank /48 and i gank WBT's solo. try the same
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
Force is strength....... not constitution..... battlevest gives you loads of piercing... this makes you invulnerable to.... err.... mad copbots :(
you want about 300 body health, 280-300 with a (blue) heart 2, put your points into fire and energy resists, carry both belts with you at all times. As a combat spy learn either poke or hack and get either one to (81 for poking, about 100 for hacking ops) a high level, ALL the rest of your points into wep lore!
Th cores are the equivalent of err aggy cellars.....
Aim for about 25 or so energy and same in fire, wear an anti rad suit the minute you can get to use it. The rest of your con points go into athletics (70) and put plenty of dex in agility (70).
Im still developing my spy set up as he aint "fully capped" yet due to loming at times.
There is a good one though, this i know for sure!
General Crazy
07-08-03, 16:30
well lets try this again I am talk about other weapons at my current level NOT highlevel/Capped runners weapons well be all great if my charator would just cap it's self but in the mean time I have to work with the gimped NOT highlevel rifles that you find in the stores you do remember them before you started colecting Rare weapons or has everyone forgot they are even in the game and NONE Highlevel capped players have to use them.
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 16:30
Heh, just a note:
The equivilent of spies in other games (lights in tribes2?) are teh pwnz0r if played well....
Spies are the master class at the moment (as in, hardest to play well), that's simply because of how gimped they are.
PEs should be the hardest class to get anywhere (but same at the end) and Spies should be damn good with Rifles/Pistols/Drones....
Heh the tank argument with the rifles and pistols....
When your DEX Cap is 21 below the first half decent rare I don't really class that as a valid argument :p
It's like saying "PEs have the second highest PSI!(which they do) so therefore they're a PSI Weapon class too! (EG: Capable of pwning with APU)" heh............. not gonna happen I think
You don't really mean store-bought do you?
You have had them re-made I hope.
As for the high-end game for spies - we are just as gimped as we are at low and middle levels.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 16:37
Originally posted by jernau
You don't really mean store-bought do you?
You have had them re-made I hope.
As for the high-end game for spies - we are just as gimped as we are at low and middle levels.
well i by them then BPed 5 times then I have 5 made then keep the best ones with highest slots and sell other ones
edit: my point being none rare weapons
Originally posted by General Crazy
well i by them then BPed 5 times then I have 5 made then keep the best ones with highest slots and sell other ones
edit: my point being none rare weapons
ah OK - I thought you did but I had to check :)
me=spy just to make it clear.
spy+Dex 100+Dex implants (+15 min) +Int 100=ARS suit+Heavy Energy protection belt+Disruptor near cap+First Love near cap+Stealth activator= 5 BURSTS of a rad CS (MORE THAN A PE)+ Gun with RoF of Gatlin (RC boosts) or close to, Accuracy of a laser (+WEP from int), Damage of plasma (RC again) and range of a sniper (WEP/RCish) +Gun totalling more damage per burst than a CS with faster run speed and better accuracy+ability to become invisible and prevent being hit by conventional damage=t3h win
Spies f*cking suck but from above when near cap, the rewards speak for themselves. Of course if your gonna tradeskill at the same time then your screwed but a combat spy can do the shitz with dressings.
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 16:46
Trip.
"More than a PE"
Please :)
I can take 10 bursts from CS currently, more if I changed my setup. :P
edit;
only 8 if they're all constantly pouring in....:P
General Crazy
07-08-03, 16:52
Originally posted by Trip
Spies f*cking suck but from above when near cap, the rewards speak for themselves. Of course if your gonna tradeskill at the same time then your screwed but a combat spy can do the shitz with dressings.
I found out the hard way after the first boring week started as a tradeskill about a month ago since playing in the beta that ever one has capped tradeskill chars so low lvl tradeskills are useless and a waste of time as a constructor a weapon mod every hour or so.
VVerevvolf
07-08-03, 16:52
You just need to know how to play a spy.
Before I lomed everything to become a pure tradeskiller, it was always funny to see tanks running for their lifes.
Just use ur fucking high range and your stealth, and you won't die to a tank in an open area.
here's the beauty of it. You can immediately switch the armor from your belt and ARS suit at the click of a finger (or maybe 4 drop and drags) PEs though have to LoM away. As far as i know Spies are pretty much one of the few which can have that versatility without having synap for 2 hours from LoMs.
Neways i do agree spies need more goodies. Atm PEs are stealing em :) we get stealth. So do they (maybe not as high as us but c'mon...who needs more than stealth 1? (P.S. i use stealth 2 as 10 seconds sometimes does save you in OP wars) PEs however get to use stealth1, take hits AND cause some fairly reasonable damage.
Oh yeh the 5 bursts is when all shots landed and the spy and tank were at point blank none of em moving.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 16:57
Originally posted by VVerevvolf
You just need to know how to play a spy.
Before I lomed everything to become a pure tradeskiller, it was always funny to see tanks running for their lifes.
Just use ur fucking high range and your stealth, and you won't die to a tank in an open area.
well that great but one thing I DO NOT HAVE THE DEX to use the stealth. the stealth may be great and all but it is made for highlevel spies
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
When you show me a place that KK have stated that i will accept your word and not argue
I dont need KK's word, my own word is enough for me....take a look at a spy and ask yourself.."do these hav ub3r strength and constitution?" and tell me your answer, i know mine and i stick by it and if i REALLY wanted to search the web/check mags/manual's for a word on spys i would but i already know wot a spy _IS NOT_ ment to be
edit/ btw spys wont be gettin no main stat increases for the pure fact 'if they got one, i want one' that will come up so so many times.....we all hav the SAME ammount of points all in all, add it up.
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 16:59
Same, here.
All four burst head.
Alig, does that mean a Spy could use their sattalite ion cannon and orbitally bombard you from space? :P
After all, they're smart, not strong...
Tank or not you'd be dead after that and no tank with 20int would ever work out how to fire one. :P
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Same, here.
All four burst head.
Alig, does that mean a Spy could use their sattalite ion cannon and orbitally bombard you from space? :P
After all, they're smart, not strong...
Tank or not you'd be dead after that and no tank with 20int would ever work out how to fire one. :P
.....balance.....:rolleyes:
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 17:05
It was a stupid example for a reason.
Little bit of logic
A) Tanks are stupidly over powered.
OR
B) Spies are stupidly under powered.
= C) Something is wrong.
@alig - that's what they are now. It's not what they were or what they should be or what they will be.
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It was a stupid example for a reason.
Little bit of logic
A) Tanks are stupidly over powered.
OR
B) Spies are stupidly under powered.
= C) Something is wrong.
Tanks = fighting class
Spys = trading/to an extent....fighting class
= balance...theres is nothing wrong with the balance in this game atm apart from the mass of damage a HL can do when it tops its 'random damage' thingy....im talkin mega damage!!
General Crazy
07-08-03, 17:08
Originally posted by jernau
@alig - that's what they are now. It's not what they were or what they should be or what they will be.
yes maybe rares/high level weapons are but lower weapons are not and that is the who point of this thread not to talk about who has the better capped char
Originally posted by General Crazy
yes maybe rares/high level weapons are but lower weapons are not and that is the who point of this thread not to talk about who has the better capped char
I've started a tank on pluto, at rank 28 a Hurler can EASILY kill me....Ur low rank and wot? u expect u can kill a chaser and take lots of damage? no class takes little damage at ur current level, End of.
Originally posted by General Crazy
yes maybe rares/high level weapons are but lower weapons are not and that is the who point of this thread not to talk about who has the better capped char
I wasn't talking about capped chars. I am talking about all levels.
Originally posted by alig
theres is nothing wrong with the balance in this game atm
Funniest quote ever :lol: . Spoken like a true tank :p
Originally posted by alig
I've started a tank on pluto, at rank 28 a Hurler can EASILY kill me....Ur low rank and wot? u expect u can kill a chaser and take lots of damage? no class takes little damage at ur current level, End of.
my spy is rank 60 and a hurler could EASILY kill me too :rolleyes:
if you cant use stealth etc, then you need to lvl, spy's are the class with the poorest defence thats never gonna change. Apu's have high dmg cause thats al they do, they have a weak defence and cant heal. A tank is heavy dmg class so deals alot of dmg but at the same tl weps shouldnt deal alot more than your rifles. And theres no way a pe your lvl will be dealing more dmg if you have capped your weps as he will be using the same weps you can, if not less as you should lvl dex faster than them. (unless he dmg boosting the mobs but that benefits you too :) )
What your describing is simply the nature of the spy unfortunatly, if you want a better defence but the smae try a pe (although cant use high end rares).
if you want to deal dmg try a tank or apu. The classes are set up so each char has its benefits and disadvantages, you just have to decide what type fo char you want to play.
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 17:15
Ali, dude, what I'm sayin here is like this man:
Tradeskill using Spy = 10-50% of A Tank.
PURE Combat Spy = 100% of a PURE Combat Tank.
I think anyone, no matter what the class, when properly setup, should be able to go at it...
It's the same as my PE Man, ya know what I'm like, fighting with a gimped gun'n'a whole lotta spirit to try to make the duel equal :p
As for low level spy leveling......
..I found it easy to level a low level spy, infact the only "low level" char I ever had trouble leveling, was my monk.
Originally posted by jernau
I wasn't talking about capped chars. I am talking about all levels.
Funniest quote ever :lol: . Spoken like a true tank :p
:lol: sure was but i hav 2 of the other 3 class's so no it aint a 'im a tank muhahah fo' comment cuz my monks apu and we _all_ know how long they last dont we:rolleyes: pe's are just ding after ding after forking ding, and they aint excactly long lasting against mobs either....:rolleyes:
edit/ just for the thread in whole.....if my tank can out shoot grims im sure a rifle spy will be able to.....u hav no excuse now :D and as for caves .....well, blame the ppu if u die every 1 min or urself if u constantly trying to be the 'heroic' spy of the cave!!
General Crazy
07-08-03, 17:17
Originally posted by alig
I've started a tank on pluto, at rank 28 a Hurler can EASILY kill me....Ur low rank and wot? u expect u can kill a chaser and take lots of damage? no class takes little damage at ur current level, End of.
my rank in goes up and done in mid 40's and i have seen rank 25 PSI's take down a Warbot solo in about a minute so tell me how a being around 20 rank higher it takes about ten minutes for me to take down one solo so tell me where the balance is there??
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 17:19
Originally posted by General Crazy
i have seen rank 25 PSI's take down a Warbot solo in about a minute
LOL
This would have to be an APU, Pure APU, meaning, not even able to heal themselves so if they get shot they're going to fall over.
And this char must also be chewing PSI Boosters, which are FAR more expensive than your Ammo.
Originally posted by General Crazy
my rank in goes up and done in mid 40's and i have seen rank 25 PSI's take down a Warbot solo in about a minute so tell me how a being around 20 rank higher it takes about ten minutes for me to take down one solo so tell me where the balance is there??
Yar...wot qd said almost, APU's are supposed to be 'hard' attacking 'weak' defences....its the idea of that class as is spys
Originally posted by alig
:lol: sure was but i hav 2 of the other 3 class's so no it aint a 'im a tank muhahah fo' comment cuz my monks apu and we _all_ know how long they last dont we:rolleyes: pe's are just ding after ding after forking ding, and they aint excactly long lasting against mobs either....:rolleyes:
APU monks at least get mad ENR resist.
Therein lies my point though :
Defense-wise an APU is roughly equivalent to a spy (depending on setup).
Offense wise they aren't even close.
It's that disparity I object to.
I'm talking here about pure-combat characters of equal rank be they 10/10 or 60/60.
We can hav 600 energy resist for all i care....wb's = shit xp, crp(fire) = only place to be!:)
QuantumDelta
07-08-03, 17:24
That doesn't help Spies against CS tho o_O
General Crazy
07-08-03, 17:25
Originally posted by jernau
APU monks at least get mad ENR resist.
Therein lies my point though :
Defense-wise an APU is roughly equivalent to a spy (depending on setup).
Offense wise they aren't even close.
It's that disparity I object to.
I'm talking here about pure-combat characters of equal rank be they 10/10 or 60/60.
Offense wise lower lvl spies untill rares/stealth they don't compare to anything of it's own rank.
So what do u guys want on spys, tank resist maybe some PA to cap resists, PE speed and the abilty to cloak lets be generous and let yea build ur 5 slot wepons
Plain and simply a good comabt spy will have good resists with only a weakness to (fire - energy) weps ur dmg should be just as good as a CS.
So
Tank
Pro
-Can have be fast as a PE with CS holstered
-Can be resistant to all forms of dmg so if they come at yea fire or xry ur taking 80dmg from a Capped out CS.
-With That resist u can have a nice array of HP 450-500
-On average a CS rapes a poorly setup player and hurts just about all others
Con
-We have no PA are PA=Kill Me Quick
-Pull out that wep and ur slow as ass
-Enemy far off No luck
Now Spy
Pro
-Fairly Fast
-1st love just as good as a CS with no slow down
-Cloak very nice getting owned disappear
-Nice set of PA
-Vicious from far off and Decent close up
Cons
-Weak not near as much HP as a tank 100-200 Hit points less
-Can resist Xry superbly but lacking in ENR/FIR assualt
Now my question is why u feel you deserve tank Dmg and resists PE quickness and cloaking ability?
Talk about versatility Jernau, defense wise the apu has more resistance than spies, but the apu also lacks tactic tools like stealth, or basic buffs and heals to be self-sufficient. You cannot compare monks with other classes, specially apu monks, we have completely different resources and tactics to play.
@kimmy - What do I want?
There are 2 ways I can see it being fixed :
1) Massive increase in damage from drones and rifles coupled with making higher level rifles unusable to PEs. Add spy PA that boosts skills but does very little for defense. Leave other armour alone.
or
2) Give spies back Duranit and/or give defense and skill boosting PA. Increase DEX weapon damage slightly.
The problem with both is that it turns the spy into the middle-ground character the PE should be. Best solution for that IMO - Give PEs mechs or some other form of unique combat advantage. Maybe the new armed vehicles should be PE only.
@jernau
My question what is wrong with the spy now? A pure combat spy is an insane character
Originally posted by Sleawer
Talk about versatility Jernau, defense wise the apu has more resistance than spies, but the apu also lacks tactic tools like stealth, or basic buffs and heals to be self-sufficient. You cannot compare monks with other classes, specially apu monks, we have completely different resources and tactics to play.
hmm - we share common tactics IMO - hide or run.
The difference is that if you have a PPU there an APU is an almost unkillable killer whereas a spy in the same position will be doing 1/10th the damage or less.
No-one getting ready for battle will be telling the PPUs to "watch the spies, we need them to win this"
Originally posted by KimmyG
@jernau
My question what is wrong with the spy now? A pure combat spy is an insane character
As I said - we have the worst defense and almost the worst offence. Don't give me that BS about FL=CS. It's just not true, even at cap the FL does less damage, misses just as often and requires the spy to be dangerously close to his target.
and if that APU sheild drops he is gone instanly and if ur a spy maybe u shouldn't be trying to go head to head with people.
ghandisfury
07-08-03, 17:47
General....you're low lvl. Don't expect to own mobs more than double your lvl. Hunt in groups, preferably with a PPU, get to the point to where you can use stealth, wait for spy PA, and most of all STOP WHINING!! I have a ??/68 spy, and I have owned 2 smerfs at the same time using stealth and my mobility. Go level your character, THEN come back and tell us what you think.
P.S. you should have been here when stealth wasn't here!
What u mean BS? a high sloted capped out FL rapes harshly Dmg my not be exact as a CS but it is harsh
SigmaDraconis
07-08-03, 17:51
heh 3-4 things here..
1) While agreeing spies need better defence...ill smack someone if they even touch their offense...
2) If spies get on this PE bandwagon trend where they think all their gear needs to be just a little worse then a tanks im ALSO going to smack someone....
3) _Spy_ is not a word that aptly describes someone you throw into a trench and give a machine gun on the front lines..so dont ever expect to play that role...but in the neocron sense it does kinda fit because machine gunners always die first o.0
4) Dirty truth is Spy is the premeire tradeskilling class, Tank is the premeire fighting class, neither is good at the other....if you accept this and just want some defensive tweaks, kickass im 100% with you. If you don't accept this well....get a life really theres no arguing this fact!!!
5) On a Tangent i do understand as to why SOME people bitch they cant do both , seeing as you almost CANNOT level off tradeskills anymore...
6) All this crap about APU's and Spies dying by that hand of scropians well..sarcasm aside...if you actually do die to one of these after rank /10 you really...really....really...need to work on your PvM skills. Now this excludes the big black *** ones and yellow <<<< ones aswell :)
7) and eek gads..massive amount to drone anything and im quitting NC..as it is they can chase em around a zone and fire from 3x my max range :\ Maybe they dont do insane damage for the higher levels..but they make up for it between the lag shitty netcode/server positioning bullox range (both flying and firing) and..something else i forgot...btw im nto saying nerf them..just fix them :)
8) oh ya last one Rifles i guess were intended as snipers....piss poor with the way everyone jerks around iwith the coding its impossible to keep a reticle on a fast moving target at 700m for more then the first shot :\
bit more then 3 or 4 things i guess :\
Originally posted by KimmyG
and if that APU sheild drops he is gone instanly and if ur a spy maybe u shouldn't be trying to go head to head with people.
The spy wouldn't need to be that close. Put a tank and a spy at the edge of each other's clipping planes. Give the spy any gun you like and the tank a well modded laser cannon. The spy's damage will be penalised for being too close while the tank will get a bonus. The spy will be lucky to get the tank to half health before he's dead. That's if they stand still, if the tank charges him he'll be lucky to get 2 frames of update from the server before he picks a genrep.
No, we follow complete different tactics. The apu monk cannot hide and run, we have to fight or die.
You as spy count with a resource which allows you to run away from close combat, apu monks dont, you count with long range over any other class, apu's dont, you count with basic heals and buffs to recover quickly and go back to combat, apu's again dont.
So when we team with our pure nemesis, the ppu monk, we deserve a better teaming than any other class.
And just FYI, the unkillable machine has a 50% shields effectivity reduction, so I believe you are mistaken here, the class with 100 cons is not the monk. If we are valuable in combat situations with ppu's, it is due our only tactic spell, Holy Antibuff.
The difference is you dont know where is your role as a spy, that's what I have been reading along this thread.
APU role: Medium range fighter. Damage dealer
Spy role: Support char. By long range fighter, by team support (tradeskills) or by dronning.
I saw this comming, what firstly started as a vidication of better gameplay for spies, has turned into a bitching thread to every other class, and the target, as always, monks and tanks.
SigmaDraconis
07-08-03, 17:58
Originally posted by jernau
The spy wouldn't need to be that close. Put a tank and a spy at the edge of each other's clipping planes. Give the spy any gun you like and the tank a well modded laser cannon. The spy's damage will be penalised for being too close while the tank will get a bonus. The spy will be lucky to get the tank to half health before he's dead. That's if they stand still, if the tank charges him he'll be lucky to get 2 frames of update from the server before he picks a genrep.
Hmm? even an ultimated STORM doesnt reach my clipping plane consistantly...not that many tanks actually carry one around just for the sake of sniping spies o.0 and in a stationary fight the Spy will own a tank with a reedemer or even TL 85 Lightbringer 2..ofcourse normally a tank will be on top of the spy raping him b4 he switches clips...
i do, in first case it was a pistol spy, but since they are pretty chanceless due too low resist i lommed to droning
but back to the topic:
i dont agree that spy's need better offence, since they have some very nice guns (first love, pain easer, disruptor)
but defence... well 40 const and 40 allows you too wear battlearmor, but you wont get any resist from armor (except for belts)
but dex based armor would fix this.. dex bases, not uberarmor but just a little more resists since 40 const doesnt give much points too spend. cause with some more resists they would a least stand a better chance in cqb
ghandisfury
07-08-03, 18:00
Originally posted by Sleawer
No, we follow complete different tactics. The apu monk cannot hide and run, we have to fight or die.
You as spy count with a resource which allows you to run away from close combat, apu monks dont, you count with long range over any other class, apu's dont, you count with basic heals and buffs to recover quickly and go back to combat, apu's again dont.
So when we team with our pure nemesis, the ppu monk, we deserve a better teaming than any other class.
And just FYI, the unkillable machine has a 50% shields effectivity reduction, so I believe you are mistaken here, the class with 100 cons is not the monk. If we are valuable in combat situations with ppu's, it is due our only tactic spell, Holy Antibuff.
The difference is you dont know where is your role as a spy, that's what I have been reading along this thread.
APU role: Medium range fighter. Damage dealer
Spy role: Support char. By long range fighter, by team support (tradeskills) or by dronning.
I saw this comming, what firstly started as a vidication of better gameplay for spies, has turned into a bitching thread to every other class, and the target, as always, monks and tanks.
You are right on every point except one slewer. "what firstly started as a vidication of better gameplay for spies". This is incorrect. It started as a low lvl player (guessing by his rank a ??/40) bitching because he gets owned by war bots. I'm sorry, I've seen this to many times and quite frankly it starts to annoy me. I didn't spend 4 months leveling my PE/spy/monk for nothing. I did it so I would have easier game play (PvM) and to even be able to participate in PvP.
This thread didn't start out to make game play "better" for spys, it started to make game play easier for a player who doesn't want to pay his dues.
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
4) Dirty truth is Spy is the premeire tradeskilling class, Tank is the premeire fighting class, neither is good at the other....if you accept this and just want some defensive tweaks, kickass im 100% with you. If you don't accept this well....get a life really theres no arguing this fact!!!
i dont support that.
as said before, then they would be called merchants.
and why the hell would there be weapons that only spies can use if they are only meant to tradeskill? (without drugs)
I love spy threads ;-) I love both of my spies too.
I just don't get one thing: why would someone who is all up to fighting chose a spy? In my eyes the spy is a class with an uncompareable wide access to major parts of the game at once.
My spy can construct, barter, repair (all 3 at high level), drive all vehicles, recycle and hack on a level required for mobs, stealth and use all rifles. Now, if I would like to fight only, why would I like to make a spy when there are two dedicated combat classes: APU and tank?
Anyway, a spy can be awesome at combat, _but_ not the direct way to combat like tanks for example. What would we need tanks for if a spy could do it?
Spies are fine as they are, just give them their own PAs and consider lowering the requirements on Inq-1 and Dur-1 armors so spies could use them easier.
yeh haha, the other day i was talking to a spy who wanted tradeskills but also wanted to last like a tank in fights and do as much dmg... but didnt want to be a tank.
i mean fair enough maybe he wants a challenge, he had most parts to the herc and stuff..
but spies are spies (im also a spy)
and to be honest i expect to get crippled straight away..
i dont want any changes, apart from i want riggers interface to drop :p :p :p :p
Originally posted by Lucjan
Spies are fine as they are, just give them their own PAs and consider lowering the requirements on Inq-1 and Dur-1 armors so spies could use them easier.
If yea give a spy this it will cap there resists.
You want a good spy say unerf MC-5 and let there be no requests for the imps
General Crazy
07-08-03, 18:37
Ok i did a test got a warbot titan to not move and sniped it it took 20 minutes and 40 clips of ammo I have included pics of my weapon and of a single hit on the warbot titan
http://www.br1clan.com/~generalcrazy/neocron/images/sniperrifle.jpg
http://www.br1clan.com/~generalcrazy/neocron/images/warbottitan.jpg
Originally posted by General Crazy
Ok i did a test got a warbot titan to not move and sniped it it took 20 minutes and 40 clips of ammo I have included pics of my weapon and of a single hit on the warbot titan
This = TL38 wepon not capped
Make a tank and get an unlabbled gat cannon and see how long it takes to kill a WB if you can even get it to 1/2 u would suprise me
ghandisfury
07-08-03, 18:48
Originally posted by General Crazy
Ok i did a test got a warbot titan to not move and sniped it it took 20 minutes and 40 clips of ammo I have included pics of my weapon and of a single hit on the warbot titan
http://www.br1clan.com/~generalcrazy/neocron/images/sniperrifle.jpg
http://www.br1clan.com/~generalcrazy/neocron/images/warbottitan.jpg
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude, you're using a TL 38 weapon that you haven't even got capped!!!! I'll say it again...you're a low lvl player. You are using low lvl equipment, that was made (what looks to be) by a low level constructor. Level your character before you bitch about lack of defences.
(wow, lot of lelels in there:rolleyes: )
Beanie McChimp
07-08-03, 18:51
In my experience of playing this game it seems tanks are the luckiest class in the game.They have decent power armor decent weapons(not as good as a spy :D lol) and it seems they never die apart from accidents:lol: to make it fair i reckon tanks should have no psi (they are mentally challenegend ) and spys have higher const.before you tanks start moaning there are medi packs and they are very good and WHEN THE HELL WILL U SPYS GET OUR DAMN PA THE ARS IS CRAP.
General Crazy - Divide from Saturn proves you wrong.
His First Love does the same count of damage to most players as any Cursed Soul.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 18:56
Originally posted by Lucjan
I love spy threads ;-) I love both of my spies too.
I just don't get one thing: why would someone who is all up to fighting chose a spy? In my eyes the spy is a class with an uncompareable wide access to major parts of the game at once.
My spy can construct, barter, repair (all 3 at high level), drive all vehicles, recycle and hack on a level required for mobs, stealth and use all rifles. Now, if I would like to fight only, why would I like to make a spy when there are two dedicated combat classes: APU and tank?
Anyway, a spy can be awesome at combat, _but_ not the direct way to combat like tanks for example. What would we need tanks for if a spy could do it?
Spies are fine as they are, just give them their own PAs and consider lowering the requirements on Inq-1 and Dur-1 armors so spies could use them easier.
well one thing is the nerfed leveling off trade skills so that is why all the spies are forced in to combat.
Originally posted by KimmyG
Make a tank and get an unlabbled gat cannon and see how long it takes to kill a WB if you can even get it to 1/2 u would suprise me
I made a rank 40 tank in about 4 hours die like 3 times in LVL 4 storage one being a monk exploiting a spell that kills LE users and It has taken me a month to get my spy to to get my spy to rank 44 and it die a almost every time it gets in to battle. And my friend using an unlabbled gat cannon on WB's all the time and get does alot more damage they my spy does and he is a PE not a tank he has points in Melee, Heavy weapon, Pistol combat and hightech combat with a 46 rank.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 18:58
Originally posted by Dream
General Crazy - Divide from Saturn proves you wrong.
His First Love does the same count of damage to most players as any Cursed Soul.
first of i am not talking about the rare weapons they maybe balanced i don't know i will have to take you on your word.
My god, you need to specialyze in those skills, TL-38 rifle with 100% aiming? I believe the cap for sniper rifles is 267%, and damage needs an improvement too, more even when you modded it for damage, 137% is too low.
Just some advices Crazy:
- The first mod in a weapon must be "ammo type"; the others can be barrels (for dmg if you dont cap it, 178%, and range), or frecuency/range mods.
- You have to specialyze in your skills, this means you have to spend your dexterity points into combat in first place, and as a rifler the first points of intelligence should go to weapon lore, then some hack for WB's, and finally more hack if you want to aim for belts and OutPosts.
- Sell all the loot that you find inside warbots, the most rare components, like vhc-10, can be sold to other players with a for a very good profit. If you have a barterer friend, even better.
- With this money get your weapons "better" constructed, at least 2 slots (i.e. ammo mod/dmg mod), and always hire high lvl constructors, so more chances to get slots.
- I strongly recomend you to use combat implants while you are lvl'ing your character, these are easy to get if you sell the items inside those warbots. Experimental Balistic Weaponchips, Distance Weapon CPU's, are good to get bonuses in your combat skills, and Motoric/Mind Control chips, Reflexboosters.. are good to raise your dexterity lvl and use higher Tech Level weapons, thus more experience from fighting mobs. These chips are cheap, and the higher versions (lvl 3) wont cost you more than 25-30k.
- Drugs are your friends while leveling.
You have said you were rank //40?
I have started a rifle spy not many time ago, he's about your rank in Saturn, and he caps his TAR and almost Plasma Rifle in damage, these are not 120% stats, so I guess your problem is the skill setup.
If you play in Saturn pm me here, I will be online this evening to help you a bit.
@everyone,
guys let's chill out with new chars ok? no need to flame him more.
@General Crazy,
dont bring arguments of exploits where that is not the topic, it attracks flames, also understand that most people here has capped chars and an extensive play experience, they always think in high ranks, high TL weapons, and PvP or High lvl PvM.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 19:03
Originally posted by ghandisfury
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude, you're using a TL 38 weapon that you haven't even got capped!!!! I'll say it again...you're a low lvl player. You are using low lvl equipment, that was made (what looks to be) by a low level constructor. Level your character before you bitch about lack of defences.
(wow, lot of lelels in there:rolleyes: )
well if you are talking about it being 120% in every thing that would cost alot just for one rifle
that is one rifle i can just where i don't get withing attack range
ghandisfury
07-08-03, 19:07
Originally posted by General Crazy
well if you are talking about it being 120% in every thing that would cost alot just for one rifle
that is one rifle i can just where i don't get withing attack range
No, I'm talking about making it 120 (or there about) in damage and frequency. I'm also talking about leveling your dex and putting it all into rifle use, and leveling your intel and putting it all into weapons lore. You should not expect to kill (with any character) a mob that is more than double your rank solo. Level your character.......you will enjoy playing a spy quite a bit when you get higher rank. THIS is the problem with Neocron atm......There is a huge gap between a capped player, and a near capped player.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 19:08
btw i don't want a combat spy i want to be a constructor seeing i can't level of tradeskill anymore like i did in the beta i am forced to do combat instead.
I just dont look at it, but since I said you are a new char, I might be wrong looking at your registration time.
This game spins around specialization, you need to spend your points in combat skills while leveling, with few in tradeskills, only advanced players know how to spend points into tradeskills and combat while leveling, and not gimping themselves.
Stablish your goals, first get a good rank and lvl in your main skills, them abuse of lom's to re-distribute your alocated points.
As I have said, if you are rank 40, you have a problem in skill points.. judging that screenshot.
Yes low TL weapons, specially non-tech rifles/pistols have a problem and we need some more additions into the game, but not as big as your problem.
Originally posted by Sleawer
The difference is you dont know where is your role as a spy, that's what I have been reading along this thread.
Get to f*ck.
Go play a spy and tell me we are viable in our role.
Nowhere have I said I want to fight close-combat. Nowhere have I said I want uber armour or resists.
Our roles is distance combat ie. Drones and Rifles - Drones are bugged to hell and back and rifles are useless becuase the clipping plane is so damned close.
My point about the tank/spy sniping contest is that I put the spy dead-bang in his role and the tank a mile from his. I've actually tried this test myself and know the result - Tank wins, ie. Tanks are better than spies at doing what spies are meant to do.
Anyone who tries to suggest that spies are viable in PvP is a liar or an idiot and any tank that lets a spy kill him has no skill at all.
Spies are not supposed to be there just for inept tanks to kill when they can't take on other tanks.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 19:15
Originally posted by ghandisfury
No, I'm talking about making it 120 (or there about) in damage and frequency. I'm also talking about leveling your dex and putting it all into rifle use, and leveling your intel and putting it all into weapons lore. You should not expect to kill (with any character) a mob that is more than double your rank solo. Level your character.......you will enjoy playing a spy quite a bit when you get higher rank. THIS is the problem with Neocron atm......There is a huge gap between a capped player, and a near capped player.
problem is hunting warbots at the moment with a group of friends is the only way i can get any exp and i don't normally hunt alone i hunt with 2 to 4 other charaters and all placed well so the problem has to do with the fact that i don't do any damage compared to others using pistol or heavy weapon or psi
General Crazy
07-08-03, 19:23
Originally posted by Sleawer
I just dont look at it, but since I said you are a new char, I might be wrong looking at your registration time.
I am not a New Player i have not played since the beta 4 ended where i could level in the tradeskills so i did none have to be a combat spy.
Originally posted by Jernau
Get to f*ck.
Go play a spy and tell me we are viable in our role.
Nowhere have I said I want to fight close-combat. Nowhere have I said I want uber armour or resists.
Our roles is distance combat ie. Drones and Rifles - Drones are bugged to hell and back and rifles are useless becuase the clipping plane is so damned close.
My point about the tank/spy sniping contest is that I put the spy dead-bang in his role and the tank a mile from his. I've actually tried this test myself and know the result - Tank wins, ie. Tanks are better than spies at doing what spies are meant to do.
Anyone who tries to suggest that spies are viable in PvP is a liar or an idiot and any tank that lets a spy kill him has no skill at all.
Spies are not supposed to be there just for inept tanks to kill when they can't take on other tanks.
First I do not attend to insults, so moderate your tone next time you talk with me.
Second make a difference to what you direct at me after the quote or not. The first three paragraphs are valid to what I have posted, the others sounds like an argument to any other poster here.
to quote you "go play a spy and tell me we are viable in our role"; yes I do and play two spies, droner/researcher and rifle/hacker, soon barterer/pistoler, if you are viable in your role or not, is a matter I didnt enter, I have enought suggesting a better role for my monk, apu monk.
You were trying to compare spies with apu monks in some ways, therefore my explanation, reminder, of which are your roles as a spy, next time read my post. If you keep comparing spies with monks, I will keep tearing down any of your arguments in that matter.
One more thing, calling liars people for not sharing your points of view is not a wise move. My point is spies are viable and very good in many PvP situations, and very valuable. Dont call me a liar again, and get some experience in PvP before making such statements, I fight spies with my monk everyday, some are adapted and could kill me in the proper enviroment with ease, some others dont have a clue of how to PvP his role.
Also a person is not an inept to play a tank, they just have chosen their proffession, which is, as heavy combat, medium range fighter and combat supporter with cannons; as you see it fits perfectly the role of the common PvP'er. To be a combat spy, you have to differ in that role, and definetly adapt to the resources that KK has avaible for you.
Dribble Joy
07-08-03, 19:26
Dude.......
At lvl 40 my PE was lucky to do 20 dmg a shot, and with a pistol.
I had to stand under a titans legs and blast at it untill I died or the PPU and tank I was with killed it.
I didn't start to solo WBs untill I had at least a Ryker Napalm.
Seriously, you shouldn't be going after lvl 85 mobs and expecting to blow them away in a couple of clips. Even capped people will buff/heal/drug up when going after one of these. I still take (If I hit all shots) 2-3 clips from my judge to down a titan (thats's with the new large clips)
As for the whole spy thing.....
Some people here are obviously playing their spys wrong, spy's will never have all resists capped and indeed shouldn't. Your weakness is energy/fire, you are good against Force piercing (half of STR should be in FOR in my overrated opinion) FOR adds piercing res, a deflector belt will help too.
You're are fast, clever, and can use high end equipement. Spy's, as with the other classes, will own if used properly.
The game is more balanced than you think, the problem is people's need to play it like anyother FPS, which THIS IS NOT.
Originally posted by General Crazy
I am not a New Player i have not played since the beta 4 ended where i could level in the tradeskills so i did none have to be a combat spy.
In this case follow the few advices I posted here, many thigs have changed since beta, specially this whole specialization mess.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 19:32
Originally posted by Sleawer
In this case follow the few advices I posted here, many thigs have changed since beta, specially this whole specialization mess.
I LOMMED my construction skill along time a go.
Originally posted by General Crazy
I made a rank 40 tank in about 4 hours die like 3 times in LVL 4 storage one being a monk exploiting a spell that kills LE users and It has taken me a month to get my spy to to get my spy to rank 44 and it die a almost every time it gets in to battle. And my friend using an unlabbled gat cannon on WB's all the time and get does alot more damage they my spy does and he is a PE not a tank he has points in Melee, Heavy weapon, Pistol combat and hightech combat with a 46 rank.
ffs....this is so annoying....spys arent an attacking class, they arent ment to out damage a tank...defensively or offensively...tanks are the fighting breed, the spys make the tanks weapons.....:rolleyes:
But...on the other hand...do i smell a wee bit of exageration there....rank 40 tank in 4hrs...woooooo thats impressive, considering i hav a base 100 con tank and i can assure u u CANT get a tank no where near rank 40 in 4hrs....not even a day, it took me 1 WHOLE day(about 12hrs) to get alig to rank 32....thats with all the help i could get(no ppu)im talkin a clan that litterally laid the guns on my lap and said "av em" imps that was in my head the instant i could use them....i find that rather incredible! :)
where does this 'tanks are soooo sooooo fast to lvl' bs cum from anyway? i find a pe goes ding ding ding 24/7 till u cap, not my tank who never goes ding no more! :)
General Crazy - I'd suggest dumping the sniper rifle for a Tangent Assault Rifle, or if you can use it, the basic Fusion Rifle (judging by the dex/int you mentioned). That's if you're wanting to fight mobs at long range. Sniper rifles are good for one or two high damage hits, but they are pretty crappy for sustained fire, capped or not.
Also judging by your damage/aiming under details on that sniper rifle, I'd recommend pouring a lot more points into r-c and if possible weapon lore (You can still get a base of about 70-90 weapon lore while getting a base construct of 140-150, in the very long run (ie, by cap).. then imps can provide another 50 odd weapon lore).
With a 178% [edit: damage, not aiming] TAR you can down a warbot without being hit in maybe 5 clips? I forget exactly, but considering you'll be about 1/4 of the warbot's combat rank it's reasonably good going. (as a PE, technically a bit worse with rifles than a spy, the top non-rare pulselaser lets me kill a warbot in about 20-30 seconds).
Dribble Joy
07-08-03, 19:35
Originally posted by alig
ffs....this is so annoying....spys arent an attacking class, they arent ment to out damage a tank...defensively or offensively...tanks are the fighting breed, the spys make the tanks weapons.....:rolleyes:
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
*whimper
sigh..... nm
HOLY CRAP!
This thread blew up, i didn't even see it.
Sorry but i'm not gonna read through all of it. :D
My opinion is that a spy should get better defense, nothing crazy, but better defense.
The apu's TEH UBER offensive power is balanced by his defense, i've seen nothing so great about the spy that warrants his shit defense.
I also believe spies should be the masters of technology. They should be EXACTLY like PSIS, but for technology. THey should get alot of other gadgets. Like a device that displays the names of everyone in the zone, or thermal goggles, or disguise kit, etc.....
Btw can someone tell me(honestly) how droners are not viable for PvP? :confused:
Doesn't PN do pure energy damage? Because a PN totally rips apart my apu(who has super energy resist) so i'm wondering what's the problem.
@Sleawer - I found your comment just as offensive tbh. Mine was merely an expression of shock directed at the general level of idiocy as much as at your comment that served as an appropriate highlight.
The later paragraphs may be more general but they follow on from the first so I didn't seperate them - I assumed people would cope :rolleyes: .
You seem to be making a hell of a lot of assumptions about how I play and from what I see you are wrong on all of them. I did read your posts, you could please return the favour.
As for any comparisons I've made to other classes they were all clearly explained in context at the time to make a particular point. If you missed or avoided the point I can't help you I'm afraid.
I neither called you a liar nor claimed all tanks are inept. I admit you could read it that way if you choose to but that's neither what I said or meant.
This thread is now well off-topic and getting nasty so I'll leave it before it gets shut.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!
*whimper
sigh..... nm
yea wotever....its called not taking the side the thread started wanted _everyone_ to take.....
Dribble Joy
07-08-03, 19:44
Originally posted by alig
yea wotever....its called not taking the side the thread started wanted _everyone_ to take.....
Gah, I'm not on anyones side really, I think that spys are fine as they are, They are just harder to use than... oooh your favourite char Alig, the tank.
if you want to lvl fast you could lom your tradeskill untill your higher lvl, either way your going to want alot more rifle combat, your sniper should be fully capped as its well below your lvl.
Whats your imp/dex/int setup? mabey with some changes to these you could deal alot more dmg :)
General Crazy
07-08-03, 19:46
If people would read every comment i have made then they would understand better seems noone wants to take the time to read everything so i think i will just live with the whole thing. I thank people for their comments but i still at square one. My guess is i will lom back to pistol which i got better damage with before i switched to rifle.
Dribble Joy
07-08-03, 19:54
Originally posted by General Crazy
My guess is i will lom back to pistol which i got better damage with before i switched to rifle.
You have got to be kidding. Rifle pwn pistols. RoF is the only thing pistols have over rifles.
Remember also that lore has a HUGE impact on pistols, rifle users need FAR FAR more in lore to cap aiming/Rof/sod it the whole lot, than you do a Pistol.
That there may be your problem, tradeskilling at your lvl AND useing a rifle is not good.
Tradeskillers are far better with pistols due to the amount of points taken away from lore in INT.
Go for slightly lower lvl mobs, at least untill you have a decent weapon (serioulsy save up for it, it's worth the effort)
If you wanna be a Tradeskiller in the long run, then as you say, pistols are probably your best option.
Bah, what do I know.
Ok this is an insane thread and it shows on thing
Spys may get 100 int, but the people running sure as hell dont have that quality if you think a pure combat spy sucks go play a tank cause ur at there int lvl.
Originally posted by General Crazy
If people would read every comment i have made then they would understand better seems noone wants to take the time to read everything so i think i will just live with the whole thing. I thank people for their comments but i still at square one. My guess is i will lom back to pistol which i got better damage with before i switched to rifle.
I read everything in the thread, but it's possible I missed something or forgot something.
Your issue is that you're not doing enough damage with rifles to compete with your non-riflespy friends when you team against warbots, no?
ive recently made a rifle battle spy and i think it rocks. cant really do close combat but when someone gets close i generaly activate stealth get some distance and snipe them with silent hunter :P.
spys cant fight like a tank can but you can rape one from 1000m away :D.
General Crazy
07-08-03, 20:08
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
You have got to be kidding. Rifle pwn pistols. RoF is the only thing pistols have over rifles.
Remember also that lore has a HUGE impact on pistols, rifle users need FAR FAR more in lore to cap aiming/Rof/sod it the whole lot, than you do a Pistol.
That there may be your problem, tradeskilling at your lvl AND useing a rifle is not good.
Tradeskillers are far better with pistols due to the amount of points taken away from lore in INT.
Go for slightly lower lvl mobs, at least untill you have a decent weapon (serioulsy save up for it, it's worth the effort)
If you wanna be a Tradeskiller in the long run, then as you say, pistols are probably your best option.
Bah, what do I know.
Originally posted by General Crazy
I LOMMED my construction skill along time a go.
So first i start by saying nobody takes the time to read anthing but the last couple of posts so i give up on the issue and consider it closed because i keep repeating myself over and over again. Is reason my i don't post on forums in the first place. I guessing forum is bad place to get infomation from since nobody seems to know what is going on and everything on this forum turns in to a battle I have yet to see a thread that stays on topic and second of all people are aways telling each other that you have to play the game this way or another. for every one decent comment their seems to be 5 flame/spam
General what is your level and stats exactly?
Maybe we can give you some tips.
If you've gotten rid of your construct skill, what is a) your base int/dex (no imps or drugs) and b) what levels are you at with the subskills under those stats (eg, r-c 110)?
edit: depending on your base stats, faction may be useful to know too..
General Crazy, no offence man, but you have to be considered new to the game. The changes since beta4 were so huge, this even isnt the same game anymore. I guess most of made the mistake not to understand what you actually wanted as we usually assume everything here is about high level ;-)
Now, please do yourself a favour and look at Sleavers advices.
You don't need to spend insane cash on guns, but in your case of low R-C skill making a gun with 2 or 3 slots would help a lot.
You would go better with a TAR, but if the sniper fits you more, fine. Mod it with some sort of ammo (doesnt matter which, as mobs dont have separated resists) and a barrel mod.
Weapons with an ammo mod does higher damage then unmodded weapons.
In case you dont use it, start to use a rifle combat booster 1. Maybe you should consider getting more R-C, 127% damage on a TL38 rifle is just to low for 80/85 rank mobs. Compare the damage stats and TLs of your weapon with those of your tank friend's, I wouldnt be surprised if he has much more damage on a higher TL weapon then you have.
Oh yes, I forgot: welcome to the world of specialization.
I would be fine with giving spies more toys, but currently they are the most self depreciating class by far and have huge inferiority complexes. Anytime I suggest stealth might be too powerful on the forum, I'm swarmed by an army of spies that proclaim they suck and should have any boost they can get. So ok I accept that and go back into game and again I see spies being nearly invincible with stealth. I just sigh and think with even more toys how bad they'll be. Don't get me wrong, I would love for spies to get a boost, but kk doesn't just boost. They go to extremes, either minimal or maximal changes. So spies are given some totaly unbalancing toy and they immediatly chain themselves to it. I'm a spy, I suck, I need godmode! Plus theres X Y and Z which obviously proves this isn't really godmode. Again I go ingame and see things that totaly disprove this : (
It's totaly the same as hybrids, on the forum you have lots of normal/sucky hybrids who yell whenever someone says hybrids are too powerful. Then you go ingame and run into someone who knows what they're doing and they're nearly invincible. Yet noone had a problem banding together and beating the hybrids down to crap. They were overpowered afterall...
Anyway, please try and think outside your class. Improving Spies is good, overpowering them is not.
PS. Stealth is probably the second best defense in the game, the first being ppu's.
if my apu had stealth, OMG i would own the server. :D
Dribble Joy
07-08-03, 20:38
Originally posted by General Crazy
I LOMMED my construction skill along time a go.
Fair nuff, my mistake, I missed that one.
But I have read this entire thread before I started to post.
Even with all points in lore, at your lvl it will be hard to cap/get decent dmg on a gun, the majority of people never cap the aiming on a Painy.
You said this in your original post...
Every Rifle/High Tech Rifle I use even all Outstanding Quality does little compared to other weapon like Heavy weapon or PSI Spells.
The majority of peole have articfact weapons, heavy does a lot but the rate of fire is slower/tank dmg is higher at your lvl (tanks and Psis will shove tha majority of their points into the dmg affecting skills, these for spy are those in DEX which will go into AGL as well, yes this could be seen as an imblance)
i reload my weapon about 3 times as much as a pistol user or Heavy Weapon user does.
Pistols and heavy weapons have bigger clips and (usually) arent burst/multiple shot.
To top all the i see people with pistol that can shot almost as far or farther the 95% of the rifles only expection being the Sniper
Sorry but no no no no The range of pistols sucks big time, and shots hit to shot fired is very small, even a capped judge will miss at ranges considered pathetic to a rifle user.
You seem to searching for something, which you barely hinted at. You didn't actually ask a question such as ' What can I do to make my SPY tougher/do more dmg?'
I don't wanna sound like a cunt, but give us some info and ask us what you want.
Yes spy's (to an extent) need more defense (though in my and most (I think) people's opinion, physical resists are not what a spy should use (though of course they need them everyone needs more resists) gadjets etc. are the way)
Yes spys need more offense at mid-lvl, The problem here is people are thinking too much about capped spy problemsand not concentrating on what YOU need.
And dude... chill :)
PS I bet this post is way to old now, bloody parents needed phone for ages, grrrrrrrrrrrr
//edit What Carinth and Lucjan said.
From what I've seen heard your dmg is way too low, and you REALLY need an ammo mod on a gun. TAR as said is probably a better choice, but go with what you like.
Originally posted by Dribble Joy
Gah, I'm not on anyones side really, I think that spys are fine as they are, They are just harder to use than... oooh your favourite char Alig, the tank.
:lol: i wonder i wonder....maybe its the 'fully capped' aspect of him or could it be the 'ub3r' side tanks have? hmm.....hard one....i also have little things called 'opinions' yes u heard me 'opinions' if ur not on anyones side then why did u call me a whimper? im just not fucking denying spys are weak and always will be WEAK
Has my favourite character got anything to do with you tho? ur roughnecks or sumthing....i cant fully remember but i hope we meet in pepper park_section 1 for sum all out pvp and HEY guess wot....ill be on alig kicking ur ass;)
Beanie McChimp
07-08-03, 22:37
General i had 2 trade skills (i lomd barter for hack) i have implant nowand im fine at op fights i keep a fair distance away and range kill thats what us spys are for to hang back and snipe my suggestion is pop in sum dex imps and get ureself a tar for now
or use a gat ure choice and put most of ure points of intel into wep lore but keep ure construct no matter what and put most dex points into r-c then ure all kitted out for constructing and combat.
Dribble Joy
07-08-03, 22:51
Originally posted by alig
:lol: i wonder i wonder....maybe its the 'fully capped' aspect of him or could it be the 'ub3r' side tanks have? hmm.....hard one....i also have little things called 'opinions' yes u heard me 'opinions' if ur not on anyones side then why did u call me a whimper? im just not fucking denying spys are weak and always will be WEAK
Has my favourite character got anything to do with you tho? ur roughnecks or sumthing....i cant fully remember but i hope we meet in pepper park_section 1 for sum all out pvp and HEY guess wot....ill be on alig kicking ur ass;)
....Alig.....
*whimper means I whimpered, not that you are a whimp....
You simply cannot acept that Spy could/are/should be good in any form or combat. Lets leave this stuff there.
PP? yeah, If I ever go there, and yes you will pwn me, With your capped CS tank vs. my Judge PE add the fact I suck hairy dog balls in PvP and you have .... a reputation.
//edit Lets not start a flame war, I won't be coming back to this thread. Leave this place for the topic at hand.
Forget My Name
07-08-03, 23:01
All I can say as a 64/56 ** rifle spy is this...
Range in this game is such horrid shit. You all have to be kidding me when you say spies are fine. Well, I am ONLY talking about RIFLE SPIES here.
1) The clipping plane is too damn close. Use a scope mod you say?
2) Scope mod = same clipping plane of regular view!
3) Character lag and warps makes aiming impossible at far range
4) Visual bullets. Why are my normal 5.56 bullets visable? You can see where my little yellow bullet cam from EASY
5) No matter how far you are form my sniping, if I can see you, you can see me. Snipers and most rifles need to have some visual range OUTSIDE everyone else. The scope SHOULD extend your graphical plane by double easy.
6) There is no real concept of COVER and CONCEALMENT in this game. I am a sniper looking for the enemy, but I cannot hide anywhere at all! If I want to shoot you, that means I need to be out in teh open where you can see me. Due to game lag, by the time you come within my clipping plane of vision, you are already running half way past my range due to lag and loading of avatars.
7) NO PRONE POSITION!!!!!! Why cant a sniper get on his/her belly is BEYOND me. When I am ontop of an OP building or next to some graphical bushes, why cant I lay down to flatten myself? It is done in WOLFENSTEIN and it totally rocks!
8) Turning vegitation off is the best way to see riflers period. I wish I could turn some graphical part of teh game on or off to give tanks and monks half health.
About stealth being over powered? Listen to this please.
Stealth is only used by anyone using High tech weapons ok? Now, most likely this high tech user is an offensive spy. A spy using weapons MADE for spies, like rifles and/or droners/pistoler.
Now, since reaKKtor has made a line of weapons that only spies can use ( high end rares ) that would ASSUME that spies are ment for very strong offensive comabat at high tech levels. BUT... Due to the problems I mentioned above, a spy's offensive is completely shot in MOST situations. Thus, we need STEALTH to live due to shitty programming and bad concepts on KK's part regarding graphics and range.
Stealth is very power ONLY because my offensive spy, using reaKKtor made high level weapons, cannot kill anything due to faulty servers/lag/programming/bandwidth/etc.... For me, it seem KK made stealth after realising that " opps, we made all these cool spy guns and toys, but spies can't be used 100% effectively on our engine, so here is a way to live after some 20/20 tank runs up to you and guns your ass down with a baseball bat"
i am not forcing my spy to be offensive against its nature. I am using this class as reaKKtor designed it as; A high tech item using killing machine.... which cant kill shit.
We offensive spies need-
1) More armor/defense. We die way too easy. Pistol spy anyone?
2) some way of seeing further with a scope then a non scope user can see. Why am I a sniper if my target can see just as far as I can!!! I never got that!
Comemnts?Flames?Bitches?Gripes?
FMN I agree with everything you said.
I almost rape snipers in op wars. Especially since like you said,t he whole clipping plane thing. Usually if I get shot, all I gotta do is walk a few more feet and I see their name in local, I look around and pow my HL wipes them out.
POor spies.
In my view (as a capped spy) we need the armour boost badly.
Our offensive capabilities are fine *if* we can live long enough to actually deal any reasonable damage.
I am not asking for a huge boost - just something that would take us over that "dies in 2.5 seconds" threshold.
Originally posted by Arcadius
I also believe spies should be the masters of technology. They should be EXACTLY like PSIS, but for technology. THey should get alot of other gadgets. Like a device that displays the names of everyone in the zone, or thermal goggles, or disguise kit, etc.....
hmmm, id acctually prefer this more than better defence or offence.
like a laptop tool, so u could acces citycom in the wastelands. Rokkwear tool to change appereance, stuff like that would be awesome!
EDIT: ROFL, both laptop 'tool' and rokkwear 'tool' sounds very stupid. live with it.
I think they should just remove the req on MC-5 chips with a herc the spy setup changes by 100% and u have an insane char.
Spys need to look at the pros also a peice of armour that caps one resist and another peice that almost caps another resist and the ability to disapear almost instantly.
Originally posted by Arcadius
I also believe spies should be the masters of technology. They should be EXACTLY like PSIS, but for technology. THey should get alot of other gadgets. Like a device that displays the names of everyone in the zone, or thermal goggles, or disguise kit, etc.....
I agree with what Arcadius have said, improving the roles of every class in the game (except ppu's) is something I would like to see done, specially the spy role. Arc's suggestion fits very well what a spy should be.
I also posted some time ago a petition of special armor sets for spies, like the PSI armor, but based in Dex & Int requirements, basically an armor with a complexity degree that only spies, and maybe capped PE's, could manipulate.
Other suggestion was to decrease the strenght of spies to 20, and raise the psi to 40; then their shit defence would make more sense, due a higher psi skill. With a new dex-int armor and psi, spies would get enought defence and more roles in their class.
No need to say a lot of people complained about spies being too powerful with this; well just were two ideas, along with a thousand more in these forums. In the end, KK is who decides.
ps: Carinth has a point about stealth, in my opinion True Sight Sanctum should be removed from ppu's, and give it to the spies as a tool. The stealth war and counter measures should be avaible as an option in the game.. also dmg boost, poison and freezer effects should be removed from stealthed people.
Liquid_Ice
08-08-03, 05:14
Humm.. I would first like to say I would love some more armor/armour for my spy but I also know that if given to much Spies would be to good at PvP which is the only thing Tanks/APU monks do... As far as the spy people that say they die in seconds I would say work on your Con setup... I play on saturn and am far from the best spy on the server but I have no problems handling mobs and can take more than one CS bursts.. Don't take this as a bash of anykind just think of it as I do.. Spies are the weakest of all fighting classes so get as good as you can so that once you can get your kills it will be OH so much sweeter...
nonamebrandeggs
08-08-03, 06:13
Ho hum
Promethius
08-08-03, 07:08
Originally posted by Syntax-Error
Hold on. i bet you complained about the Hybrids, if you didnt like the way Hybrids owned everything why did you go hybrid
Well as i played my tank i hated hybrids. But i finaly gave in and realised a tank can never beat a hybrid 1 v 1. So i made a hybrid =). Neva complained cuz i knew it def was gettin slammed wit a nerf bat but i figured i had time to have fun ....godlyness was nice =)
Originally posted by Sleawer
I agree with what Arcadius have said, improving the roles of every class in the game (except ppu's)
wtf, ppus are nearly useless in op wars, they need a major boost.
Originally posted by Arcadius
wtf, ppus are nearly useless in op wars, they need a major boost.
Well you heard him, give ppus a boost:rolleyes:
nonamebrandeggs
08-08-03, 07:51
YA GIBE TEH PEEPEEYOUS A BOOST THAT GIBES DEM SUPER SAYAN POWARS AND THEY GLOY GREN AND YELOW AND THEN WHENEVER A SPIE TOCHES IT TEHY GET A INVINTORY FULL OF HOLODUKES SOS THEY WIN TEH BATTEL FOR TEH BUILDING OUT IN TEH WASTLAND!11111
Originally posted by jernau
As I said - we have the worst defense and almost the worst offence. Don't give me that BS about FL=CS. It's just not true, even at cap the FL does less damage, misses just as often and requires the spy to be dangerously close to his target.
Jernau...I saw it with my own eyes. Divide's first love hit my friends tank for EXACTLY the same amount as an artifact CS would.
As for defense, with the spy PA you can pretty much cap xray alone, with a heavy energy belt and 50 points into con in energy you can pretty much cap energy. If KK wasn't gay and didn't put requirements on mc5 chips, with a moveon and herc you could have enough str for inq1 armor, therefore coming very close to capping fire.
You *CAN* get the spy close to a capped con setup. True he will have less hp, no chance for poison, and be slightly slower...but he also has access to weapons that do NOT cut his speed, and stealth devices which help a hell of alot.
A smart spy can also drug for shelter if he sets up PSI properly, adding even more defense for 1v1's.
Bah to your spy whine.
Why should a spy have to drug, to be merely adequate ?
Surely this shows you something is wrong.
Originally posted by kurai
Why should a spy have to drug, to be merely adequate ?
Surely this shows you something is wrong.
Any PE that is worth a dam has to drug to be adequate why shouldn't spys?
nonamebrandeggs
08-08-03, 08:15
I'm gunna say 1 more thing in this thread: SPIES DON'T NEED A BOOST.
kthxclosed.
Originally posted by kurai
Why should a spy have to drug, to be merely adequate ?
Surely this shows you something is wrong.
Why should a PE have to drug just to use a DECENT pistol? (RoLH)
Why should a PE have to drug to use level 1 hp bonuses (heat/haz) even tho hes the second highest psi class in the game?
on the other hand...
Why do tanks whip the shit out of everything WITHOUT drugging?
So I guess you're right its unfair, but not ONLY for spies...
Originally posted by Dream
Why do tanks whip the shit out of everything WITHOUT drugging?
So I guess you're right its unfair, but not ONLY for spies...
Id say cause the only thing a tank can cast is something that will protect them from a aggy
Beanie McChimp
08-08-03, 15:12
Its simple NERF the tank hes way too powerful and up the defence on the spy and then everything in this games is equal apart from pe's there dex cap should be 90-95 then everything is fair
QuantumDelta
08-08-03, 15:18
heh o_O pretty close.............not exactly tho...
Forget My Name
08-08-03, 16:58
Originally posted by Dream
Why should a PE have to drug just to use a DECENT pistol? (RoLH)
Why should a PE have to drug to use level 1 hp bonuses (heat/haz) even tho hes the second highest psi class in the game?
on the other hand...
Why do tanks whip the shit out of everything WITHOUT drugging?
So I guess you're right its unfair, but not ONLY for spies...
Simple.
PE's are not specialist, but in this game to be effective you do have to specialise. hence PE's need drugs and massive imps to reach the levels that Tanks monks and spies get to. Spies shouldnt have to drug up since we are already specialists, the problem is, specialise in what? Not combat thats for sure, adn not trade skilling since the nature of tradeskilling is gained THROUGH combat anyway.
A tradeskilling class SHOULD NEVER have to even touch combat to cap off.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.3 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.