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Lexxuk
03-08-03, 22:10
Well, ok, kinda, sorta anti nerf. The current system of -30% is unfair, totally unfair in fact, with 10 apu and 10 ppu, you lose 30% off each, with 100 apu and 100 ppu you lose 30% off each, at really high levels, its a major nerf, even at low levels, using spells with ppu and apu to level, is unfair. My solution :-

PPU/APU upto 50 points = -0%
PPU/APU upto 75 points = -20%
PPU/APU upto 100 points = -30%
PPU/APU higher than 100 = -50%

That means, a PPU with 50APU to level, would lose 0% effect on his/her PPU spells or APU spells (because the APU <50) even if the PPU is >50 it would still be 0%. A PPU with 100 PPU and 75 APU would get 20% reduction, 75 APU isnt exactly super high, but, they would also lose 20% from their PPU spells. And so on, Ub3r Hybrid would still be as dead as a dead thing, but leveling PPU's and healing APU's would not be as dead as another dead thing.

Dribble Joy
03-08-03, 22:14
Too many numbers there atm, but I get the general idea.

Yes the current system of PPU/APU nerfs APU/PPU is a little extreme. But a good idea though :p

Arcadius
03-08-03, 22:17
Hybrids should be restricted to bless buffs and beams and have the ability to run/cast. They should also be restricted from damage boost, but I dunno how that could be managed.

Lexxuk
03-08-03, 22:20
Crahn Holy Damage Boost PSI=29 PPU=61 MST=36

With say 116 APU and 61 PPU, you'd be in the "drop 20%" stage, you'd lose 20% APU (equivilent to 23 points or something) and 20% PPU. By using the damage boost, your APU, because its high level, would be slaughtered by the 20% loss.

Dade Murphey
03-08-03, 22:42
Originally posted by Lexxuk
My solution :-

PPU/APU upto 50 points = -0%
PPU/APU upto 75 points = -20%
PPU/APU upto 100 points = -30%
PPU/APU higher than 100 = -50%


I like this idea...it would give apu's and such the ability to have some sort of heal if they so wished without taking a % hit...and it would drastically sway people from hybrids in the long run

Omnituens
03-08-03, 23:04
FFS

STFU

monks are nerfed enough. KK ignore these ppl. concentrate on content now.

Sythlie
03-08-03, 23:05
The problem with the uber-hybrids was the ability to use holy heal/deflector/shelter and fire apocalypse/holy lightning.

A hybrid's heal was only slightly less effective than that of a pure PPU and the other buffs were equal to those of a pure PPU due to the fact these spells provided a finite value of protection regardless of caster's abilities instead of being damage based as they are now. Holy lightning/fire apocalypse were at less damage than those of a pure APU but this was largely compensated by the availability of damage boost.

The 30% across the board nerfs combined with the modification of shelter/deflectors to be damage-based, and the 50% reduction in effectiveness of foreign casted buffs in a single patch did not balance hybrids, it removed them from possibility entirely. Even without the additional 30% nerf, these changes made hybrids far less desirable as support members of a group and removed much of their personal ability to buff themselves.

The 20% across the board nerf was released on the test server the day before the 30% nerf was patched into retail along with the rest of the changes. There was much whining on test that a 20% hit had no effect, though I suspect one day wasn't truly enough to test this thoroughly. (And, some people just like to whine -- witness the current collection of whinging that PPUs/APU's are overpowered...) Perhaps it was necessary to remove hybrids at the highest levels, however it appears that low levels and noobs attempting to level, and more reasonable hybrids went out along with the proverbial bath water.

Neocron is a game in need of players, and removing playstyles is generally not a good idea. Simpler, less crippling solutions could have been implemented. For example, raising the APU or PPU required for spells above beams and blessed buffs. Or, a phased in penalty such as Lexxuk has suggested.

@Arcadius - No need to remove damage boost, just make it damage based as well. Hybrids could use it, but it would be less effective than if cast by a pure PPU.

mdares
03-08-03, 23:31
actually i think the current system is already like that (i tried it on test to sneak by this hyb nerf =p) tho its not so much based on the actual amount of A/PPU that u have rather than the DIFFERENCE between your apu and ppu values.

Say you have the same amount of apu and ppu, you will be nerfed hard because in a sense you are the "holy" hybrids that kk wants to get rid of (APU/PPU = 116/112); so it doesnt matter if you are 10/10 or 100/100, your still a "uber" hybrid because of your equal dedication to both schools of psi. Then, as you level if you get more A/PPU than P/APU (increasing the difference between the two values), the dmg % penalty is decreased so that at 100/10 the penalty is negligible and in fact is more forceful in making pure breed monks than Lexx's idea as in your case hybrids will once again be prevailant via the certain penalty at certain A/PPU values.

then with the above, the actual formula for dmg would be more along the lines of:
A/PPU dmg = 0.65*A/PPU + 0.35*PPW - (0.3*P/APU)/[abs(APU - PPU) + 1]

such thta as the difference between APU and PPU decreases the 0.3 penalty is more prevailant than when the difference of the 2 values are high.

just my thoughts.

/edit: if any of u are also engineers out there who uses MATLAB i can send u a script i wrote to test my theory. :D

Sythlie
04-08-03, 00:49
It's across the board, see the following chart. Spells used are the TL3 Heal for PPU, the TL2 Energy Bolt for APU. No PPW was speced since it is expected to have a +35% effect per point allocated to each discipline and is irrelevant to any discussion of base effect of the penalties.




APU PPU Damage%(APU) Damage%(PPU)
-------------------------------------
0 0 -30 -30
50 0 410 -30
75 0 463 -30
100 0 504 -30
120 0 532 -30
120 5 500 -30
120 10 469 -30
120 15 437 -30
120 20 406 -30
120 25 372 -13
120 30 358 39
120 35 349 61



Edit: Attempted to fix table

KidWithStick
04-08-03, 00:54
personally...i dont care...im glad hybrids are gone...and i hope they never return.

Lexxuk
04-08-03, 01:57
Not on about the ole uber hybrids (which kept gettin less uber over the past year) i'm on about allowing some le-way instead of the "u get PPU as an APU, ur screwed" effect.

It would also nullify the +20 APU that a PSI 3 could give u, nulify people just getting into their psi core with drugz etc..

Arcadius
04-08-03, 02:12
Originally posted by Sythlie

@Arcadius - No need to remove damage boost, just make it damage based as well. Hybrids could use it, but it would be less effective than if cast by a pure PPU.

It already is damage based.



It's not hard to get a high percentage on damage boost.

Progenitor
04-08-03, 04:29
I'm not saying that we need to bring back the hybrids of old - but it would be nice if as an APU I can cast the basic heals, resists and shields on myself, without gimping myself.

Right now, as it is, if I am in the PA cloak, I have somewhere around -55 ppu, it's not like I can spec any ppu as it is.

It is kinda silly seeing all the othe non-psi based characters able to cast those spells but I can't.

-p

da_zero0
04-08-03, 04:39
great idea *g*

Forget My Name
04-08-03, 04:58
Good idea.. to bad many of the posters here dont learn the word "understand" and just know the words "flame" "post count" "attention" "immaturity".

Nice idea. Monks seem fine in my opinion now. Dont hurt KK's brain, because they brains is mucho fragile.

borlegan
04-08-03, 13:04
I dont know a lot related to NC but I have an APU monk with 70 psi level and as I have some chips on my dont really like to see a tank healing and using def, because I can not do it.

Basic heal / def wont do a big difference as every char can cast it... thats what I think.

On the other side I would say too that the hybrids were overbalanced, yes... but this is a Salomonic solution and no good for APUs

Rizzy
04-08-03, 13:44
Omni he wasnt nerfing the hybrids, his idea actually makes them viable.

Original monk
04-08-03, 14:23
To late all, im not lomming back again after the wack-em-to-dead-with-a-nerfstick patch, they yust ruined all hybrids in 1 patch, then why did they put in hybrids on the first place, ok things gotten outta place but if ya yust lowered some shelters for hybrids and lowered the hi apu spells like poisonbeam and parabeam (fo hybrids) then all would be ok. This take away 1/3 here then take away 1/3 there system yust sucks.

greendonkeyuk
04-08-03, 14:26
LEXX

this is a cracking idea mate, im glad someone has actually thought of an idea instead of crying nerf all the time. I like your idea more than the one kk have put in actually, because it will help the noobs level.

Omnituens..... read his post next time dude please, you really jumped the gun there, lexx does have a monk, he did get nerfed, he does know what it feels like. He devised this so that others should not have to feel that pain too.

*pats lexxuk on the back

Good effort mate!

Hwarang S.
04-08-03, 14:54
Originally posted by Progenitor
I'm not saying that we need to bring back the hybrids of old - but it would be nice if as an APU I can cast the basic heals, resists and shields on myself, without gimping myself.

Right now, as it is, if I am in the PA cloak, I have somewhere around -55 ppu, it's not like I can spec any ppu as it is.

It is kinda silly seeing all the othe non-psi based characters able to cast those spells but I can't.

-p

That's a great idea. KK, at least give us a basic heal..... :rolleyes:

W/W/H/K/K/B/LE

Omnituens
04-08-03, 15:45
sorry if it looked like i jumped to conclusions, but i still dont get your idea

PPU with 50 APU = 0% reduction

ok, got that.

PPU 100 with 75 = 20% reduction

now y has the PPU got a number this time?

by my calculations, i would get a 50% nerf in both skills. which is WORSE than now. thats why i told you to stfu.

remember, i wasnt one of the these runners who lommed to hybrid coz it was uber in PvP, then immeditaly lommed and abandoned it when they got nerfed. I've been hybrid since about the second week of playing. Im still a hybrid, and have come to terms with this nerf. However, you proposal fucks the last hybrids over. some of us dont want to be pure. dont force us.

Seaman
04-08-03, 16:48
I still have my hybrid (started Dez. 02).

I`m not capped my Basic PPU 93 for Blessed Shelter and APU 110 with MST 79. Rest goes in PPW.

Without a DS i don`t stand a chance to become worthy again.

And i have to be capped anyway to play a hybrid. Im now PSI Base 85. I Don`t wanna be pure - so IŽll wait a few weeks and Kill my char then.

My Hybrid tries to need a blessed Defl.....

Its worse then with my PE (something like 230 %...lol).

Probably out of target the nerf.

Nowadays I have the wait and see approach. ATM its just funny..:)

Everyone is laughing @ you and you can`t even level anymore

This was def. too much KK

Greetz Seaman

ghandisfury
04-08-03, 17:04
The current nerf is perfect if you ask me (I was hybrid before the patch). The only thing that KK needs to change is the run-cast. They have reduced the defences of a hybrid by over 50%, and the offences by even more in some case...but still expect them to attack like a turret. I say get rid of the whole runcast crap. Even a capped APU can't runcast holylightning without a PSI-3 boost.

EDIT....maybe the only thing they shouldn't be able to run-cast is holy heal....

D1A8L0
04-08-03, 17:44
Originally posted by ghandisfury
I say get rid of the whole runcast crap. Even a capped APU can't runcast holylightning without a PSI-3 boost.


Erm not true i can runcast HL and FA without a psi 3 on

Sleawer
04-08-03, 18:33
A capped apu can runcast everything except antibuff spells.

mclayton
04-08-03, 19:14
Lex's idea sounds good for newbs to help them level. My problem is that APU monks are the only chraracter in the game that can't cast basic buffs. Even tanks can cast heals and shelters, which seems nuts to me: medkits are driving me mad!

How about some low level buffs that are classed as APU spells, getting around the hybrid nerf. This would seem fair to me, and easy to do.

Lexxuk
04-08-03, 19:21
Originally posted by Omnituens
by my calculations, i would get a 50% nerf in both skills. which is WORSE than now. thats why i told you to stfu.

At the end of the day, KK wanted Hybrids to not have the best of both worlds, now hybrids cant even have the worst of both worlds, because even a TL 3 heal will screw them up badly.

With a increasing system, akin to the points distribution system already in effect, 0-50 =1 point 50-75=2 etc.. you could still use, blessed spells for PPU, with the 30% reduction only from APU (the math would be based on lowest subskill, cause with 110 apu and 10 ppu, reducing 10 ppu by 50% would err, suck). You would also lose 30% from your PPU, so really, the "nerf bat o'doom" which hit hybrids badly, would still be in effect. However, APU's would have a viable heal for leveling, and PPU's would have a viable attack for leveling.

Omnituens
04-08-03, 19:35
i still dont like your idea.


i'd rather see a leech life spell introduced, with a dmg over time effect (basic leech = 3 hp per tick, blessed leech = 6 hp per tick, holy leech = 12 hp per tick)

the APU would have to keep the mob targeted for the spell to have an effect.

no more nerfs as no more are needed.

Nullifidian
04-08-03, 19:51
Lexx, I like your idea, but I think it only goes halfway.


With your plan, someone with for example 120 APU STILL wouldn't be able to use a TL 3 heal because that 120 APU would be like taking away 60 points from PPU. That means they'd have to have some pretty high PPU to even start to make a dent in the penalty on even the simplest of spells.

So, in truth I think the penalty scale should work both ways.


TL0-TL20 should get 0% of the penalty points
TL21-TL40 should get 50% of the penalty points (remember Damage Boost is in there)
TL40-TL70 should get 100% of the penalty points
TL70+ should get 150% of the penalty points

In addition to that
Skill levels:
All points from 0-50 should cause no penalty points
All points from 51-75 should cause 0.5 penalty points each
All points from 76-100 should cause 1 penalty point each
All points 100+ should cause 1.5 penalty points each

For example a skill of 82 would be:

0 (points 0-50) + 13.5 (points 51-75) + 7 (76-82) = 20.5 penalty points.

Spells 0-20 would be unaffected by those points so you could cast them as normal. Spells 21-40 would be as if you had 10.25 less points of skill. Spells 41-70 would be as if you had 20.5 less points of skill. Spells 71+ would be as if you had 30.75 less points of skill.


It's a sliding scale on both sides so you never have a situation where there is a sudden jump in ability.

Lexxuk
04-08-03, 21:31
Originally posted by Nullifidian
With your plan, someone with for example 120 APU STILL wouldn't be able to use a TL 3 heal because that 120 APU would be like taking away 60 points from PPU. That means they'd have to have some pretty high PPU to even start to make a dent in the penalty on even the simplest of spells.

I dont understand that bit. With 120 APU and a TL 3 Heal, thats, 7 PPU I think? The PPU would be in the 0-50 Skill range, so would produce a 0% decrease on APU, and because the PPU is below 50, there is no hit on APU.

Umm, to clarify.

50 PPU 50 APU = -0%
75 PPU 51 APU = -10% PPU -10% APU
150 PPU 51 APU = -10% PPU -10% APU
150 PPU 76 APU = -20% PPU -20% APU

The math would be based only on the lower of the spells. So even with the "flip" of 169 apparently, if your other skill is in the other bracket, thats the %'age you lose from both skills, instead of the blanket wide APU/PPU 30% of skill.

Nullifidian
04-08-03, 21:43
Originally posted by Lexxuk
I dont understand that bit. With 120 APU and a TL 3 Heal, thats, 7 PPU I think? The PPU would be in the 0-50 Skill range, so would produce a 0% decrease on APU, and because the PPU is below 50, there is no hit on APU.

Umm, to clarify.

50 PPU 50 APU = -0%
75 PPU 51 APU = -10% PPU -10% APU
150 PPU 51 APU = -10% PPU -10% APU
150 PPU 76 APU = -20% PPU -20% APU

The math would be based only on the lower of the spells. So even with the "flip" of 169 apparently, if your other skill is in the other bracket, thats the %'age you lose from both skills, instead of the blanket wide APU/PPU 30% of skill.


The problem is that let's say you have 120 APU and 7 PPU and want to cast a TL 3 heal.

You might as well not be able to. Why? Because you'll cast that heal as if you had -53 PPU. That heal won't do squat.

Omnituens
04-08-03, 21:46
with the huge negatives the PA and Psi attack chips give, you would have to gimp an A/PPU monk to even CAST the heal.

no point trying to make a pure APU use a heal. leech spell is a much better idea. let me find a link to the thread.

Lexxuk
04-08-03, 21:53
The idea is primarily for leveling, so you wouldnt stick in PSI Attack's etc.. untill much later.

@ Nul, I still dont get it, with 120 APU and 7 PPU, you'd lose 0% APU and 0% PPU, because the 7PPU is in the "lose 0% range".

Omnituens
04-08-03, 21:57
Originally posted by Lexxuk
The idea is primarily for leveling

yes, but some of us want to STAY hybrid.

do understant that? STAY HYBRID

KK have fucked it up enough, leave it now.

Nullifidian
04-08-03, 22:01
Originally posted by Omnituens
with the huge negatives the PA and Psi attack chips give, you would have to gimp an A/PPU monk to even CAST the heal.

no point trying to make a pure APU use a heal. leech spell is a much better idea. let me find a link to the thread.

Oooooo, I LIKE!


Leech spell! Sweet sweet idea!


Perhaps two types. One that does a DoT and another that is a one shot dealie. Both would heal the receiver over time. The DoT would do less damage but heal more.


Hell, if APUs had that, you wouldn't need to be hybrid at all anyway.

Mr Friendly
04-08-03, 23:00
dont worry lex, they didnt make that nerf to make it unfair or hard, they made it to completely kill off all hybrids, & leave the ones who didnt to be killed by the nearest tank.

the hybrid doesnt exist anymore, & by more past image of KK on stuff ppl want to fix/change.......never happens

XanX
05-08-03, 00:16
KK did a kamakazi approach to the "problem" becuase there was too many in the fourms that moaned about hybrids, but people in the game wasnt maoning as much.

Sot he nerf happened, and everyone who never was a hybrid rejoyced, and me and others groaned.

They have made psi's have to walk around in pairs, no matter wot, and most semi-pures got very pissed.

Now semi pures are f**ked, and the only best weay to be in this game is semi pure. Show me any class that can get away without a heal and I'm sure they die more often than not.

The only saving grace is the new PA.

The new pa adds natural resists to the character, which help out but doesnt mean that apu's arent still the paper bag of the server, bar spies of course ;p

but the only thing that annoyed everybody was the fact that players were running around with uber damage AND defence.

I still believe most apu's wouldnt mind if their ppu damage is crap but keep their apu. as long as i could heal, I wouldnt care how good it is. Damage on the spell, should be more down the the skill points, and then if the skillpoints go over a "sweet spot" then lexxs idea should come into effect. At least thats' what i would like ;p


5 STARS !!!!

COME ON AND VOTE!!

Btw the "Vampire Spell" was my idea :D

Lexxuk
05-08-03, 00:53
Originally posted by Omnituens
yes, but some of us want to STAY hybrid.

do understant that? STAY HYBRID

KK have fucked it up enough, leave it now.

I'm sure lots of people want to be hybrid, to use Holy Shelter and Holy Lightening at the same time, and be totally powerful, now thats not possible, and KK isnt going to stick the dmg% down to 15%, so try to be constructive dude.

A vampire spell, yes, to heal, sure, but that still wouldnt fix hybrids, or semi pure's to allow them to level/heal. And I'm pretty sure if a vampire spell came into play, it would be a heck of a lot more APU then a TL 3 heal.

Hybrids are screwed, semi pures are screwed, at least with some modification and positive feedback/suggestions/idea's, KK "might" start to listen and actually fix instead of destroy.

@ XanX 5 stars? My threads? Pfft, nid would throw me out the window before that happened :p

/edit @ Mr Friendly - KK's intention has never been to kill hybrids, but they have, cept for some of them, with tweaking and modifications, hybrids could still become viable, and semi's could become viable, as it is now, well, it is death of the hybrid.

Omnituens
05-08-03, 03:37
lexxuk, i said leave it, not reduce it to 15%. i can (just about) handle my hybrid as it is. it doesnt need any more 'fixing' or 'tweaking' or whatever KK's new word for nerf is.

i want it reduced, yes, but i know enough about KK now that even if the whole monk community stood up for a un nerf, it wouldnt happen.

Nullifidian
05-08-03, 16:37
Originally posted by XanX
The only saving grace is the new PA.

The new pa adds natural resists to the character, which help out but doesnt mean that apu's arent still the paper bag of the server, bar spies of course ;p



Did they revamp the armor again? Because as it is, the PA provides LOWER protection than Holy Spirit Vest does.

Of course I might have missed something, they may have changed the PA.

Lexxuk
05-08-03, 17:19
Any chance this can now be moved to the graveyard, err, Brain Port dear mod type person?

KRIMINAL99
06-08-03, 02:14
Lexx, do you have any idea how overpowered hybrids were b4 this patch? More than twice as powerful as all the other classes. Now they are probably still slightly overpowered, but just enough to make up for their increased lvl time and use of many items to survive.. Haven't done the math, but considering they had weapons twice as powerful as everyone elses with uber defenses and they only got nerfed 30% on each end I'd say its close to fair now.

Hybrids were probably never meant to exist originally... I mean you have apus with 2x as powerful weapons as other classes but they are really weak, and PPU's with uber defenses and can defend others but can't attack very well. Im sure they intended for the pair to unite and create an UBER destruction group, but I doubt it every occured to them that someone could just put half their points in APU and get a weapon the same as everyone elses, and then put the other half in non dam % dependent PPU and get the same uber defenses and all the uber PPU abilities.

Lexxuk
06-08-03, 02:25
Krim, yep, I know how powerful Hybrids were, I was one :p only base 83, was going to be high APU, mid PPU, but these blanket 30% changes, they kill hybrids and semi's.

Look at it now, a leveling hybrid, with 50 APU and 7 PPU.

APU = apu*ppw*psilvl or something (-30% ppu) not bad, 30% of 7 ppu is, umm, not much.
PPU = ppu*ppw*psilvl (-30% apu), 30% of 50 = 10, so, their PPU is now -3.

So low level char's, are screwed when it comes to trying to heal. Thats why a leveling grade would benefit lower levels, trying to level, but the high level hybrids, still would be hit with the nerf bat o'doom.

I cant actually see how you are saying hybrids are over powered now though, the damage they do, has been cut, they were already (without dmg boost) weaker than pure, now they are hit with a 30% nerf.

MjukisDjur
06-08-03, 11:17
may I offer you some stfu? ;)

Current system works like I charm I believe since people complain so little about monks atm.

Apu and proud of it