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Duder
01-08-03, 17:10
Delete em all, they have no use in NC, where "Specialization" is the name of the game. :mad:


Thanks to the intelligent discussion on the pluto server, id like this to be done instead of giving the PEs the shittiest PA.

[TgR]KILLER
01-08-03, 17:13
PA ? were ?

err i like being a PE.. @ least i dit before my holiday.. gonna see tonight if i still do..

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 17:13
yeah k

shockr
01-08-03, 17:16
Yeah.. I've enjoyed being a PE since retail. So I'm sticking with it.

Besides.. PE's are by far the sexiest class.. not just their model.. but their style of play..

sorry, but PE's gotta stay..

hinch
01-08-03, 17:18
<move into GOD impression>
NERF TEH TANKS
</end move>

evs
01-08-03, 17:26
n3rf me

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 17:27
If yur wondering..Duder is just having a hissy fit again..no worries just nod and walk away................Plutonians are used to it..

DonnyJepp
01-08-03, 17:31
Both of my private eyes are highly specialized. One is a dedicated rifleman and the other is a melee/researcher.

You have been huffing paint again, no?

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 17:32
duder's hissy fits are teh funny!1

DonnyJepp
01-08-03, 17:38
Originally posted by [TgR]KILLER
PA ? were ?

err i like being a PE.. @ least i dit before my holiday.. gonna see tonight if i still do..


TgR theres a thread going with a poll where Jest and a few others explain quite eloquently why PE PA is a bad idea at this time. I hope that KK will very carefully consider the implications of that discussion when they go to implement something.

xkorpio
01-08-03, 17:39
Maybe not the strongest, maybe not the fastest, but still in the world

I vote NO, and a hundred times NO

PE forever.

cracky
01-08-03, 17:40
HAHA DELETE PES AND SPYS BUT GIVE THE MODEL TO TANKS AND LET TANKS USE RIFLES AND PISTOLS AND HAVE TRADESKILLS AND THEN NAME THEM PRIVATE EYES AND THEN DELETE MONKS BECAUSE WHO NEEDS FRUITY MAGIC RUINING EVEYRTHING WITH THEIR SPARKLES AND HOCUS POCUS MUMBOJUMBO.

THE GAME IS NOW BALANCED THANK I AM A GENIUS.

DonnyJepp
01-08-03, 17:45
Originally posted by cracky
HAHA DELETE PES AND SPYS BUT GIVE THE MODEL TO TANKS AND LET TANKS USE RIFLES AND PISTOLS AND HAVE TRADESKILLS AND THEN NAME THEM PRIVATE EYES AND THEN DELETE MONKS BECAUSE WHO NEEDS FRUITY MAGIC RUINING EVEYRTHING WITH THEIR SPARKLES AND HOCUS POCUS MUMBOJUMBO.

THE GAME IS NOW BALANCED THANK I AM A GENIUS.


Whoa, so everyone is a tank with tradeskills, resembling a PE eh?

I think he's onto something :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D or on something at least

enablerbr
01-08-03, 17:48
cracky i'd have said NUKE all other classes sept spies. so everyone could learn the way of the spy.

cracky
01-08-03, 17:50
I KNOW THE WAY OF THE SPY ALREADY HERE I WILL GIVE LIST OF CHECKS FOR MARKS


1 HIDE FAR AWAY FROM AN OP OR SOMETHING

2 PULL OUT SNIPER HUNTER SECRET RARE SWIRLY GUN

3 FIRE ONCE QUICK OH NO THEY ARE LOOKING THIS WAY WHAT DO I DO USE STEALTH QUICK!!!!!!!

44444 OH NO RUN AROUND TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE OP AND GO BACK TO 1

hinch
01-08-03, 17:52
remove all classes bring back hybrids then we`ll see who can really play and who sucks ass

cracky
01-08-03, 17:52
NO YOU MISS POINT NO FRUITY MAGIC KISS YOUR CAPE GOODBYE JAWA BOY

shockr
01-08-03, 17:53
Cracky.. throughout your overzealous, over-capitalised and badly worded post.. you failed to mention that spies are also droners.. so they could just as easily kick your ass with no sniper rifle. Just have to find their body.

cracky
01-08-03, 17:54
HAHA I DON'T THINK I HAVE EVER SEEN ANYBODY DIE BY A DRONE SINCE KAMIKAZIS IN BETA

shockr
01-08-03, 17:58
sorry.. but.. before I post one more time in this pointless thread..

do you actually know what the third button up on the left hand side of your keyboard is?

It should have 'CAPS' or 'CAPS LOCK' written on it in plain, understandable writing.

Duder
01-08-03, 18:03
Whats the point of a PE if the game system is all about the need to specialize just to be useful (Tradeskills....PvP...).


Joats are pure shit in NC.

Yeah bring on the PE PA so people can make threads for a week about how cool it looks, then youll see the standard PE whine thread again after the "OMG THE PE PA LOOKS SO COOL, KTHX KK!!" week has passed.

Drake6k
01-08-03, 18:19
If they deleted pe I would quit...

DigestiveBiscui
01-08-03, 18:25
ROFL what a fucking pointless thread

someone delete it, its taking up space on the forums

cracky
01-08-03, 18:26
WHY DO NOOBS ALWAYS POINT OUT CAPS LOCK KEY I HOLD SHIFT THE WHOLE TIME I TYPE!!!! NOOBS

ALSO THIS THREAD IS NOT WITHOUT POINT JUST YOUR POSTS THIS POST IS NOT ABOUT NERDY SPYS OR FRUITY MONK MEN IT IS ABOUT PES NOT WORTH JACK IN ALL TRADES!

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 18:31
where is pitspawn? he should be in here bitching about a biased poll or some lame shit he does in his spare time.

DigestiveBiscui
01-08-03, 19:26
Originally posted by cracky
PES NOT WORTH JACK IN ALL TRADES!

so what???

they can be good hackers

they can be good pokers

they can fight

piss off if PE's will ever be deleted lol....i smell a lost cause, oh look, its this thread

Breschau
01-08-03, 19:33
PE's deleted, no thanks.

The idea that PEs are JOATs gone, yes please.

Cryotchekk
01-08-03, 19:33
with a actually seriousness to this post, i dont mind PE but it really pisses me off the fact that they want pe pa and now their getting it. in fact it really reaaaalllllyyyyy pisses me off.

Vampire222
01-08-03, 19:46
Originally posted by cracky


2 PULL OUT SNIPER HUNTER SECRET RARE SWIRLY GUN


No swirly!!!

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 19:52
In all honesty this thread should be clsoed..the poll is nothing more then cynical wailing of a whiny PE and is just opening up the forusm to spam (cracky) and a world of flaming myself mainly heh)....


NIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIID.........

hnlecter
01-08-03, 20:31
Why does everyone blast on spys I mean come on. We might as well not even wear armor besides our belts for it does as much as having a fat farting guy in a hot small room. We aren't the tanks that have ubar resists and health that can go run in circles shooting each other. The reason spys cloak is because they can take about 0 damage or they won't be able to run at all.

The people who say PEs suck don't give any ideas how to change them except the extremly outrageous ones that will never happen, all you do is say PEs suck and are nerfed waaa. They keep trying to use rares when lower tl guns (spit fire, blacksun) can near cap and do great damage.

Why don't you PE people do something constructive like suggestions besides having as much dex as spys. You guys are like fricken babies just sitting there complaining and not doing anything about it.

Examples I have are

-Do something about agility this burdens PEs and Spys. Get rid of it or make it not as needed without crawling.

-Get their PA out (along with the long awaited spy PA) with abilities similar to spy PA but not as high with a little in other stats as well.

Duder
01-08-03, 20:33
Close this thread, because Sigma said so.

Jest
01-08-03, 20:37
Haha Duder I think you are the most bitter PE I have ever met. I think you might have even surpassed me, QD, and Rade combined. ;) I like the PE too. Without the PE I'd have to be a pistol spy again. *shudders*

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 20:38
Originally posted by Duder
Close this thread, because Sigma said so.

damn straight

Nid = my bia....ah nm he has mod powers..

kurai
01-08-03, 20:38
Originally posted by cracky
I KNOW THE WAY OF THE SPY ALREADY HERE I WILL GIVE LIST OF CHECKS FOR MARKS


1 HIDE FAR AWAY FROM AN OP OR SOMETHING

2 PULL OUT SNIPER HUNTER SECRET RARE SWIRLY GUN

3 FIRE ONCE QUICK OH NO THEY ARE LOOKING THIS WAY WHAT DO I DO USE STEALTH QUICK!!!!!!!

44444 OH NO RUN AROUND TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE OP AND GO BACK TO 1 Damn. He's got it exactly right, apart from the swirly. :D

shockr
01-08-03, 20:39
No.. close this thread because Cracky is a complete tit. Take your finger off the shift key 'NOOB'. Nobody takes more interested because your letters look bolder. It just makes you look like a retarded child trying to get some attention, and to be quite honest, you've made more of a farce out of this thread by doing so.

It's obvious that PE's suit the play style of many players, to remove it would be pointless.

I for one enjoy playing my PE.

Disreguarding this thread now.

Lucid Dream
02-08-03, 01:39
Originally posted by cracky
I KNOW THE WAY OF THE SPY ALREADY HERE I WILL GIVE LIST OF CHECKS FOR MARKS


1 HIDE FAR AWAY FROM AN OP OR SOMETHING

2 PULL OUT SNIPER HUNTER SECRET RARE SWIRLY GUN

3 FIRE ONCE QUICK OH NO THEY ARE LOOKING THIS WAY WHAT DO I DO USE STEALTH QUICK!!!!!!!

44444 OH NO RUN AROUND TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE OP AND GO BACK TO 1

silent hunter dosnt swirly

edit: heh posted before i read page 2, vamp beat me to it

Mingerroo
02-08-03, 01:41
Dude, who gives a shit. Some ppl like to play a "redundant" class. Just cos u dont see the point doesnt mean they dont. Just leave the damn class in :rolleyes:

Sleawer
02-08-03, 02:57
Shockr, I think you are missing craky's posts, he's being sarcasting and probably imitating what a tank int should be... also he's a PE afaik :p

Dade Murphey
02-08-03, 03:21
let's get down to the point of things...let's get rid of everything but tanks and PPU monks...oooor...better yet...every time a tank get's created it get's it's very own buff PPU...it's AI and just follows the tank around...get rid of all those other lame-O classes that have no point...APU...Spies...and PE's...of course getting rid of all these we'd have to have the shops sell EVERYTHING at high quality...but let's face it...this way we wouldn't have to have any of those crap classes running round getting in the way one true class

:p

dumb poll...bad options...:rolleyes:

Roc-a-fella
02-08-03, 03:23
this is the stupidest thread ive seen since 1999

greendonkeyuk
02-08-03, 13:55
Originally posted by Roc-a-fella
this is the stupidest thread ive seen since 1999

stupidest thread ive read. full stop!


The pe is far and away the best class, because hes simply self sufficient across the board. He has good dex, enough to use some rare weapons, he has good constitution to shrug off damage, good psi to cast his own buffs, good strength to carry his kit round with him etc....

He excels at none but is adept in all categories. IMO theyre the most fun to play as theyre the most versatile.
Ok he hasnt got the staying power of a tank or the devastating spells of the apu monk. He doesnt have the uber-defence of the ppu or the kickass rifles etc available to the spy but far and away i have the most fun playing my pe.
At the moment i play a tank for pvp and spy for roleplay, monk for levelling and supporting the gang and pe for kicks.

When my pe caps i can honestly see the others getting left by the wayside because, well, the spy keels over and dies as soon as a tank farts. Tank is boring.... it just doesnt light my fire.
ppu, hes there to help the guys level and ill log him when we need a ppu or two at opfights etc.
Pe well hes just a pe, but thats the entire point, hes a PE. He cant be the best at anything but competent at all.

If he gets nerfed, deleted, stabbed, shot, electrocuted, burned or any other fate then id have to really have to think long and hard about renewing my subscription.

KRIMINAL99
02-08-03, 15:34
LOL this is rediculous... PE's ability to stradle many abilities gives them advantages that put them AT LEAST on par with other classes. They can shock more powerfully than all non psi classes, can shield and damage boost, can use their psi pool as HP and refill it with boosters, and their attack is on par with everyone elses. (minus the ability to switch weapons between a fully energy and fully pierce/force weapon to confuse the 2 shield types).

Rade
02-08-03, 15:54
No Kriminal, since DS got reqs PEs cant do half of that stuff. And even before it did require you to get a DS which isnt easy for most PEs. The shock PEs can use is way too crappy to be worth using, the damage boost has so low damage% that it does like nothing. And their attack is not on par with everyone elses, its lower than everyone elses.

Rade
02-08-03, 15:56
I have a spy that can take almost the same amount of damage as a PE, the only difference is the shelter, and the spy does alot more damage and has access to stealth2. I have a Tank that does alot more damage and can take more damage than a PE. I have a rank25 APU that outdamages my capped PE.


Give me one scenario when you would rather be a PE than any other class.

shockr
02-08-03, 16:05
Rade.. you want to test the damage on a my liberator with and without damage boost?

I've ganked a lot of TH raiders with my damage boost. It's one of my best spells. Holy damage boost, Blessed Deflector, Shelter.

I also carry at least 1 liberator of each damage type, force, fire and xray. And believe me, when you cycle through the usual 4 libs I carry, that's 160 rounds in little under 45 seconds. While damage boosted? Only a PPU can withstand that.

I know a lot of you say we shouldn't. But I think the PE's should have a PA aswell. Or at least some armour that changes their basic model to something unique with armour. Something a capped PE can use without drugs. Just so I can look that bit sexier standing in TH 2, Wyatt in hand. ;)

Rade
02-08-03, 16:20
I know exactly how much more damage I do with my blacksun with damageboost. There is an increase, good enough to use against mobs and other long combats. But in a pvp situation you dont want sit still for 4 secs casting just to get a few more %s of damage. Those 4 seconds can be enough to kill or cripple you. The increase of damage from a PE dmg boost is nothing like the increase from a PPU monks dmg boost, which is as it should be i guess, but dont go around saying PEs will own everyone because of damage boost, because its not a big deal.

Rade
02-08-03, 16:23
Actually shockr, we can do a duel right now if you want. You use damage boost and I dont, we'll see which is actually better.

shockr
02-08-03, 16:43
Well. I roleplay. So I'm never in a situation whereby I'm standing toe to toe with someone saying 'draw...'

I don't fight fairly. If I can get that sly damage boost in, I will.

PE's won't win against a tank toe to toe, they're not meant to. But PE vs PE is more like it.

We're not meant to be excellent PvPers.. that's the tank's job, or a pair of monks. Each class fits a style.

So quite simply, you are what you are. Let your play style dictate your class.

Helen Angilley
02-08-03, 16:44
Originally posted by shockr
Well. I roleplay. So I'm never in a situation whereby I'm standing toe to toe with someone saying 'draw...'

I don't fight fairly. If I can get that sly damage boost in, I will.

PE's won't win against a tank toe to toe, they're not meant to. But PE vs PE is more like it.

We're not meant to be excellent PvPers.. that's the tank's job, or a pair of monks. Each class fits a style.

So quite simply, you are what you are. Let your play style dictate your class.

Hit the deck, love. You're just asking for a dose of Agent Orange with that statement. ^^;;

Rade
02-08-03, 16:47
Originally posted by shockr
Well. I roleplay. So I'm never in a situation whereby I'm standing toe to toe with someone saying 'draw...'

I don't fight fairly. If I can get that sly damage boost in, I will.

PE's won't win against a tank toe to toe, they're not meant to. But PE vs PE is more like it.

We're not meant to be excellent PvPers.. that's the tank's job, or a pair of monks. Each class fits a style.

So quite simply, you are what you are. Let your play style dictate your class.

So what are they supposed to be good at? You mean that in a game that is based around fighting this class should not be the prefered choice in any scenario?

shockr
02-08-03, 16:48
You know me.. glutton for punishment ;)

shockr
02-08-03, 16:59
That's my point. This game "isn't" based around fighting.

In fact.. only 16-17 of all the skills are combat based.

This game is an RPG.

Each class is good, combat wise in their own unique scenario. And each class has a different fighting style.

Just because there are those who are only interested in PvP that they cap their skills and specialise for combat, does not mean that that is the only way to play the game. One of my employees, in Phoenix Ltd, is pure tradeskill, he can just about use a bat.

So, PE's.. they're not bad at anything.. but don't expect them to come up trumps against a pro. And no, in certain scenario's, they are perfect. I'm not one of those people who say 'You should only fight people your level'. I mean.. why? Do you think I've roleplayed this character for months, only just capping now just to fight people who can kill me?

I roleplay.. my character has gained a reputation and some skill with a pistol to boot. Those who are a lower rank than me should fear and or respect me. And if the same /44 rank tank comes along when he's tough, sure.. he should wipe me clean if I killed him before. (and let me state, I kill only where roleplay permits. Sure, I've ganked some Tangent at MB. But not with the standard 'U TANGENT, I R ROLLPLAYING. GANK!'.

Rade
02-08-03, 17:28
If there were no combat in this game _at all_ would you still be playing it?

Helen Angilley
02-08-03, 17:55
Originally posted by Rade
If there were no combat in this game _at all_ would you still be playing it?

If there was nothing _but_ combat would _you_ still be playing?

Rade
02-08-03, 18:54
I played planetside for a while, about 3 months. So I would play for a while but not stay. The point however is would you play if there were no researching? yes. No constructing? yes. No hacking? yes. No barteringrecyclingreparingvehicles? yes. I wouldnt mind if 1-4 of these things disappeared, i think i would still play. I might even play if there were just leveling and combat and op wars and everything dropped as whole equipment etc... but if there were no combat? hell no.

icarium
02-08-03, 19:48
NO DISSASEMBLE STEPHANIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

Forget My Name
02-08-03, 19:57
Dumbest... thread.... ever....

shockr
02-08-03, 20:54
Rade.. you're missing the point. It's as if you need to disagree with me.

I'm just saying.. if any of the key aspects were removed it would be a shell of a game.. but this is not the issue.

A PE has a role. but combat is only 'part' of that role. Where as Tank's are only combat.

That's my point. PE's they're not weak.. but they're not super hard.. so those who play the PE mix more areas of the game than those who may play a tank. Don't get me wrong, there are exceptions to this rule. Maloch Octavia is a tank and runs a business. But generally.. you cannot realistically expect the PE to come out better than anyone else.

Rade
02-08-03, 21:01
So show me PEs role. Thats where I disagree with you, I dont see PEs having a role of their own.

shockr
02-08-03, 21:08
Well.. like I said.. I roleplay, so my character sits on top of the PE class as such.

They don't have a unique role like a tank, or a psi.. or even a spy. They're the jack of all trades, master of none.

They're the adventurer who can look after themselves. Or, to point a different view into the equasion..

It's the physical limitations on your characters body when he/she was born. PE's are the normal humans.. not enhanced or trained in any way. But can learn to do things fairly competently.

Zane used to be a researcher. Coupled with a decent weapon skill, he was a TL125 researcher. All with his INT uncapped. So there's no reason to say they can't/shouldn't/don't get used.

I don't understand why you feel that because it has no specific role, it's a bad thing. There are those of us who prefer to play and keep our options open. Not everyone wants to engage in OP raids and the like all the time.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 21:12
Originally posted by Rade

I have a spy that can take almost the same amount of damage as a PE, the only difference is the shelter, and the spy does alot more damage and has access to stealth2. I have a Tank that does alot more damage and can take more damage than a PE. I have a rank25 APU that outdamages my capped PE.

Give me a break ok Rade? Are you telling me that a spy can stand still alive after 10-12 CS bursts, like QD or Vet can do?

Are you even trying to tell me that a rank 25 apu can outdamage a capped PE?? with how many psi lvl? do you realize that 25 is the average of all 5 skills, and the psi of a rank 25 is too low to outdamage a PE?

A PE using what, a knife? o_O

How many dmg can do a rank 25 monk to an aggy, 100? 140? 200 even? also with the random damage? How much dmg a liberator can do? it is suppossed to be one of the best PvM weapons in the game. How many per shot does a Judge to an aggy? What happens when the mana of the noob apu monk runs out? how much dmg that rank 25 apu monk can do to a tank with his best spell depleting the mana pool? how much dmg can you do with your 40 bullets magazine liberator or judge, or even with your Tangent Blacksun....

You exaggerated a bit here ok? we get your point, but I dont think you need to say things like this.

Rade
02-08-03, 21:37
Im not exaggerating. Come to the test server if you want to see my spy, and what I said was equal defence _except for the shelter_ and the shelter you can get from someone else, having it by your own just makes alot of your points redundant when there is someone else around to give it to you.
My rank 25 APU is doing 300+ on aggies in a good flow. Running out of psi isnt an issue because of the psi boosters and some cloning.

And as for lib being the best mob weapon, it takes 19 seconds to kill a hopper with a lib, it takes 13 seconds to kill it with a CS. Thats pretty far from being best.





And shockr, Roleplay is not a part of this issue in any way, you can roleplay just as good with any other class. This issue here is that other classes are better joats, and better at specializing. If PEs were decent at fighting while still being able to maintain some tradeskill then they would be a joat. Now they are either decent-crappy at fighting depending on if they use rifle or pistol, but then they have _no_ tradeskill. Or they are shitty at fighting and have some tradeskills at lower level than other classes can have. They dont have a specialized role, and they dont even have a joat role. That is the problem.

Rade
02-08-03, 21:39
Originally posted by Sleawer
Are you telling me that a spy can stand still alive after 10-12 CS bursts, like QD or Vet can do?

Actually yeah, ask the tanks Ive fought today. Or better yet, get first hand experience.

Breschau
02-08-03, 22:31
Originally posted by Rade
And shockr, Roleplay is not a part of this issue in any way, you can roleplay just as good with any other class. This issue here is that other classes are better joats, and better at specializing. If PEs were decent at fighting while still being able to maintain some tradeskill then they would be a joat. Now they are either decent-crappy at fighting depending on if they use rifle or pistol, but then they have _no_ tradeskill. Or they are shitty at fighting and have some tradeskills at lower level than other classes can have. They dont have a specialized role, and they dont even have a joat role. That is the problem.

Exactly. Sure, they can pick any path to go down as they level. But then so can the other classes. And the PE can't pick more paths to do at a time than the other classes. And they'll be worse at whatever path they do choose than if the appropriate other class did the same.

Try to take a wide spread of skills and you're of no use to anyone except newbies. Specialise and you can get by, but you're not as effective as a specialist class. Wasn't always quite like that, but with the introduction of the heavy specialising focus along with various new items, it's become that way.

Helen Angilley
02-08-03, 22:36
Any of you consider that the "JOAT" description was never meant to be taken literally in PVP?

Rade
02-08-03, 22:43
Care to clarify helen?

The problem as I see it is this: PEs are underpowered as fighters, people complain about it. Other people respond with "You were never supposed to be good fighters, you are supposed to be JOATS!" Well. Ok. But we arent joats, and we never were. We have always been fighters just with different style than tanks, and with the choice to gimp ourselves to have a tradeskill at a low level. Either make them decent fighters, or make them joats as they are "supposed" to be, but do something. Increasing some stats would be one solution, its quite possible to balance it by having more combined stats than other classes, but have them all at a medium level. Another thing to consider would be having a tradeskill or two under strength, etc... I donno.

Breschau
02-08-03, 22:44
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Any of you consider that the "JOAT" description was never meant to be taken literally in PVP?

It's not just PvP though. A Spy is way superior to a PE at JOATing the non-combat aspects, for example. Either of them gets gimped if they try to do both combat and non-combat at the same time (to any major degree anyway).

Back in the days before specialisation, when you could quite easily cap a 70% quality weapon with 100-120 skill, being a JOAT was quite viable - less need for points in weapon skill, weapon lore, and for stuff like construction or hacking (I think I had 20 hack for dungeon doors, and that was it). So you could afford to spread it around a bit. Now you can't. Not to mention the inclusion of various high end items - rares for example - meaning a higher requirement on stats/skills to stay competitive.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 23:03
Originally posted by Rade

My rank 25 APU is doing 300+ on aggies in a good flow. Running out of psi isnt an issue because of the psi boosters and some cloning.

And as for lib being the best mob weapon, it takes 19 seconds to kill a hopper with a lib, it takes 13 seconds to kill it with a CS. Thats pretty far from being best.


ok 300+ to an aggy, at what rof 105? I doubt it with that lvl, how much damage does a liberator 100 per bullet? at 370 rof, 40 bullets per clip. Now compare yourself. The apu lvl 25 is not outdamaging a capped PE. Fact. If you run out of mana what happens? even with psi boosters your 105 rof (which you cannot achieve with that low lvl psi) is reduced to 30/min. Do maths again.

As for the lib being the best weapon, Lupus already told you in this thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69983&perpage=15&pagenumber=4) and also replied you with an answer of those times in this post (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69983&perpage=15&pagenumber=6).


Originally posted by Rade

Actually yeah, ask the tanks Ive fought today. Or better yet, get first hand experience.

10-12 bursts standing still against a CS, hitting all four shots in your spy head, without a shelter, and you do not die?

:rolleyes:

Ok man, if you say it... I really know some kickass spies in Saturn, one specially damn good, and cannot do that.

But if you say so...

Rade
02-08-03, 23:08
Originally posted by Sleawer
ok 300+ to an aggy, at what rof 105? I doubt it with that lvl, how much damage does a liberator 100 per bullet? at 370 rof, 40 bullets per clip. Now compare yourself. The apu lvl 25 is not outdamaging a capped PE. Fact. If you run out of mana what happens? even with psi boosters your 105 rof (which you cannot achieve with that low lvl psi) is reduced to 30/min. Do maths again.

As for the lib being the best weapon, Lupus already told you in this thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69983&perpage=15&pagenumber=4) and also replied you with an answer of those times in this post (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69983&perpage=15&pagenumber=6).



10-12 bursts standing still against a CS, hitting all four shots in your spy head, without a shelter, and you do not die?

:rolleyes:

Ok man, if you say it... I really know some kickass spies in Saturn, one specially damn good, and cannot do that.

But if you say so...

Lupus information was wrong, which i showed him with a _real_ test. Just adding up the numbers in the database obviously didnt show what damage you get when you are actually using the gun.

You didnt say, headshot, always 4 shots hit (which will never happen 12 times in a row), damage boosted, all armor stripped yada yada. Why dont you just log on test server and i can show you? Who is trying to dodge who here really? sheesh.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 23:17
Originally posted by Rade

You didnt say, headshot, always 4 shots hit (which will never happen 12 times in a row), damage boosted, all armor stripped yada yada. Why dont you just log on test server and i can show you? Who is trying to dodge who here really? sheesh.


Originally posted by Sleawer

Give me a break ok Rade? Are you telling me that a spy can stand still alive after 10-12 CS bursts, like QD or Vet can do?

Hey maybe while you stand still I can shot the wall or my feet. What do you think I meant with standing still. You are making the statement of Spies having the same defence as PE's.. of course if I dodge all the shots I will be able to survive longer that a PE, I can do with my apu aswell.

Same defence = same number of shots in the same hitbox by the same weapon.

Maybe not in english?

And just a tip: Instead of asking everyone for going to test server, why dont you make a spy in retail, play him, suffer him and try to play everyday with that setup. Maybe you will realize of a couple of more things.

ps: if you want I can log in test server, make a h-c tank, and you standing still eat 12 bursts of CS.... if you can survive then I will believe you, if you die, do not expect a rezz. Oh and dont worry for head shots, I havent PvP'ed with a tank in my life, so I doubt I land all shots in that tiny head.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 23:21
Originally posted by Rade

Lupus information was wrong, which i showed him with a _real_ test. Just adding up the numbers in the database obviously didnt show what damage you get when you are actually using the gun.

Is you real test those times to kill the hopper? because in the second link he explained to you perfectly what was wrong in your test.

Rade
03-08-03, 00:06
Originally posted by Sleawer
Is you real test those times to kill the hopper? because in the second link he explained to you perfectly what was wrong in your test.

Eh no he didnt. There is no reversed yo-yo effect. Try for yourself and see if you get it. And the fact that liberator hits less bullets is part of the problem, its not an excuse.



I have, a spy, with more HP and the same or better armor+resists as my PE. The only thing thats different is the lack of shelter. Is there something you dont understand with this statement? Or do you just hate my guts so much that you have to assume Im lying out of my ass everytime I post something?

shockr
03-08-03, 00:22
Ok.. I got bored of arguing..

but I can kill a warbot in 29 seconds..

Just to let you know ;)

Sleawer
03-08-03, 00:35
Originally posted by Rade

I have, a spy, with more HP and the same or better armor+resists as my PE. The only thing thats different is the lack of shelter. Is there something you dont understand with this statement? Or do you just hate my guts so much that you have to assume Im lying out of my ass everytime I post something?

No man, as I said before I'm interested in your work, but every comment questioning it, is like an attack to your eyes. If you lack of shelter, then you cannot take so much dmg as a PE, and if you drug to use shelter, the PE can drug to use heat and psi shield.

Is too hard to understand this? You have a good setup for spy (even when you havent posted here or PM'ed me when I asked nicely), but if a PE can have better defences than a tank, how in the Earth a spy can have better defences than a PE.

Do more tests, I'm interested in seeing your results, tell me damages from capped different weapons to your spy, why are not you testing facts with the weapons in the hands and posting numbers? forget your uber skills dodging shots for a moment, and post here results.

I would have started posting the setup, in fact when I had the same discussion with a spy user, is what I did. If we knew of what you talk, we could see the flaws and advantages of it, if you just limit yourself to dare everyone, telling how uber your spy is, but not sharing it... you are inviting everyone to not trust your words.

Daring everybody to go to test server and duel you sounds childish, and you will manage that no one want to discuss with you anymore.

Rade
03-08-03, 01:02
I posted setups once before remember? Then people just made up some other reason to be pissed, for some reason I dont feel like helping the people that do nothing but bitch at me all day, funny how that works. I also said that I would post it when I was satisfied with it but I guess that doesnt count anymore. And really, do you find it strange that I become hostile when I get replies such as "If your spy has the same armor as your PE then you must have made the worst PE setup EVER :rolleyes:"... just to take one out of the stack. When this started all I wanted to do was show that spies can be good and post the setup. Not anymore.

What Ive always said is this: A spy can have as good armor/resist combinations as a PE. I didnt say overall defense. A shelter does alot but in OP or team fights you can almost always get a shelter from a ppu or PE so the in those situations the points you have that you use in order to get the shelter yourself are redundant, unlike all other stat points you have those points become obsolete if you have someone else that can shelter you. And I did post the armor numbers, and the dmg% numbers on my guns, which is all you should need in this debate, I dont see why any other numbers would be relevant.

Sleawer
03-08-03, 02:50
"If your spy has the same armor as your PE then you must have made the worst PE setup EVER :rolleyes: "

I am not the owner of this statement, and you are discussing with me, so I dont think I deserve that threatement and defensive position from you.

If you want to keep the setup then it's ok, but to argue about something in a discussion, the first thing that should be done imo, is to present the matter or subject of discussion, in this case "how to setup a spy", and not only cons, but overall, since everything influences the versatility of a character.

I asked politely to have dmg/rof/range of your weapons, to compare notes with my setups. You have said dmg, to know more about it, I should have the other numbers I asked, and if it's possible the setup itself. If you dont want to give it, that's perfect to me, but therefore we have no subject to discuss about.

In my opinion, if a person wants to demonstrate anything, he shall provide all the information possible, and update it as long as he continues with the developments. But it's just my opinion....

About what you said defence or resists, see this.. I dont want to enter in what you have said or not; everyone commit mistakes, in rage can change words or express things without reflexion, if you meant resists or armor combinations, then you meant it, end of discussion. I wont try to quote or search for your words, that's even more childish.

However all numbers are important in a class debate, as Kurai have said, you can create bizarre setups based in just one or two subskills and theorical numbers, but when you have to analyze the versatility of it, all the information is needed.

We also can take separately specifical situations, like an imaginary OP war, where you get a shelter from a ppu or from a PE (50% reduction in effectiveness should be counted as a factor, in this second case). But the mayority of players are not 100% in OP wars, and are not 100% with a ppu, even I recall you saying you dont like ppu fights. Many people thinks like you, and rely in their skills to become good combatants; so as the situations can be infinite, we have to analyze the class whithin "their own" possibilities and limits, not counting with external issues but in matters of.... balance. Imagine the idea if we start to think in apu monk setups based in ppu's coupled with them, to balance the overall classes is correct, but to think in personalized setups that is very subjective and unfair.

This is what I had to say, my thoughs anyhow.

IceStorm
03-08-03, 03:05
Joats are pure shit in NC.
Thanks a lot. I'll remember that next time you need a Pistol Ultima part... :-/

cracky
03-08-03, 07:35
I CAN KILL A WARBOT IN 1 SECOND THEY ARE LIKE OH MAN IT IS CRACKY FAKE DEAD AND GIVE HIM THE RARE PARTS WITHOUT HACKING!

Also I would like to add people keep bringing up that this game is an rpg and doesn't revolve around pvp which is wrong.

It is an rpg but pvp is the main aspect of the game always has been and it always will be that's the way the devs want.

shockr
03-08-03, 18:55
So, if this game is based around PvP... how come I barely get involved in it and spend more time roleplaying and in my store?

Surely this wouldn't be possible if the main aim was PvP?!

Heaven forbid.. people roleplay and "don't" spend all day shooting each other! And even worse. If you play with an LE chip in.. there's no PvP whatsoever.. so sorry.. PvP isn't any more than 50% of this game.

I'm not saying it isn't an important part. But there is no way under the sun that PvP is any larger a part of the game than roleplaying and 'not' PvPing.

What you mean cacky, is that it's the main part of 'the way you' play the game.

kurai
03-08-03, 21:22
Originally posted by Sleawer
I am not the owner of this statement, and you are discussing with me, so I dont think I deserve that threatement and defensive position from you. Indeed not. That was me.
And I still feel it has some validity :D

I'm not trying to attack all your ideas, Rade, only to point out that you are not comparing like for like.

You are tyring to equate an offence gimped spy on drugs with a very basic, unboosted PE template.

Rade
03-08-03, 21:32
Actually Im comparing a state of the art PE template with a state of the art Spy template. For example, here I have a good PE setup, it has a combined xray+fire+energy+poison armor value of 177. The Spy i posted has a combined xray+fire+energy+poison armor value of 260. A PE gets 25 more con that a spy, thats 100 points, resist are 10% worse than armor so those 100 points are worth 90 more armor, the spy has 83 more armor than the PE.

Looks like PE and spy armor+resists are pretty equal to me.


And the spy I made is definately not offense gimped, he has good stats on the rifles, alot better than any PE can manage. But I already quoted those.

Arcadius
03-08-03, 21:32
Rade what about PSI shield in the hands of Pes?

Rade
03-08-03, 21:35
If a PE changes his setup to allow psi shield on drugs then he has like 40 mana. That psi shield wont be very powerfull. Especially since you take more damage once youre out of psi. It was viable with the DS but nowadays... no.

Arcadius
03-08-03, 21:39
Originally posted by Rade
If a PE changes his setup to allow psi shield on drugs then he has like 40 mana. That psi shield wont be very powerfull. Especially since you take more damage once youre out of psi. It was viable with the DS but nowadays... no.


Well QD told me has 99 mana.




Anyh00, how come i've never seen any spies with this supposedly uber setup? I'm not being sarcastic or anything. I've seen lots of pes with uber resists, tanks with uber resists, ppus with uber resists, but every spy I have fought has taken massive damage from my spells.

Rade
03-08-03, 21:46
I dont think most spies have tried doing anything along these lines, everytime I try to explain it to someone they just look at me like im crazy and reply something like "dude, spies go down like, jello, thats what we do. inq armor? nah dont think so."

Oh and you have to have a capped dex and a INT at 90ish to pull it off... but even if you have low int you can use medium energy belt instead of heavy and still be decent.

Rade
03-08-03, 21:47
Originally posted by Arcadius
Well QD told me has 99 mana.


That sounds like with DS and specced for lvl40 spells, you sure this wasnt before the DS got reqs?

Arcadius
03-08-03, 21:47
Originally posted by Rade
I dont think most spies have tried doing anything along these lines, everytime I try to explain it to someone they just look at me like im crazy and reply something like "dude, spies go down like, jello, thats what we do. inq armor? nah dont think so."

Oh and you have to have a capped dex and a INT at 90ish to pull it off... but even if you have low int you can use medium energy belt instead of heavy and still be decent.



So try and rack you brain for an 1337 APU setup for me please? :D



I mean one that still allows me to run fast.


:D

Rade
03-08-03, 21:53
I have made 1337 setups for every class and subclass and posted on the gangs forum, tweaked and updated them today actually. I dont want to give our edge away however :P

Arcadius
03-08-03, 21:54
Originally posted by Rade
I have made 1337 setups for every class and subclass and posted on the gangs forum, tweaked and updated them today actually. I dont want to give our edge away however :P


omg I thought we were tight :(

Rade
03-08-03, 21:56
Tight? You guys arent even using voicechat I thought?

Arcadius
03-08-03, 21:57
Originally posted by Rade
Tight? You guys arent even using voicechat I thought?



Err no we're not...............:o

kurai
04-08-03, 01:12
Oooo Kay ...

Time for me to eat crow.

I owe Rade a public apology.

I made an Inq 1/Radsuit/Energy belt Spy.
(With SF/SA/Moveon/Bez2/RifleEye3/Reflex4 + X-Strong).

With this (assuming 75/75 ATL/AGL & reasonable HLT) I got to 170-ish RC & WEP (TC @ 87), and had enough INT left over for a 95-ish tradeskill. (using self buffs - Rifle1/Spy1/Resist 2).
This gives you perfectly respectable gun stats on anything up to a Silent Hunter.
Stealth II (TC 95) pushed it a little far, dropping RC below the "accelerator" point - anything beyond about Ray of God level took a severe hit in effectiveness.
However - high end pistols would be much less affected.
Not being a pistolero afficionado I didn't go further with that, but others may be pleasantly suprised.


I then built a Rifle PE, and started experimenting...
I didn't go too far with this, because I could see fairly early where it was heading (I also admit I am no expert on PE setups, so there are surely subtleties I missed) so I didn't go the "knife edge + 1 drug" route.
There may be a Vet/Kramer type uber resist setup in there somewhere, but I didn't have the time/experience to find it/try it, so I can't use it as an argument.

It all boiled down, in the end, to PE PSI and Spy Rad Suit being the deciding factors. The PE CON claws back a fair proportion if the difference, but by no means all - it's the shelter that takes it past.
The PE still has the edge, but by a margin massively less than I expected.

In conclusion - the Inq 1 spy setup would be *excellent* for pistoleros, borderline, but still acceptable for high end rifling, and still stealthable.

In staged battle type scenarios with Monk cast buffs, the spy does, indeed, have the edge.

Summary: Rade right, me wrong.

I'll shut up now :o

Rade
04-08-03, 01:20
Dank j00. :D




Inquisitionhelmet 1 FOR 12.8 PRC 12.8 FIR 25.5
Tangent Anti-Radiationsuit v Prototype 1X-D XRR 117.0 HCK-50 INT-5
Heavy Energy Protection Belt FOR 30.0 ENR 70.0
Inquisitiontrousers 1 FOR 12.5 PRC 12.5 FIR 25.0
Light-Inquisitionboots FOR 12.4 PRC 12.4 FIR 22.3
BioTech Advanced Headbone FOR 13.0 PRC 10.0
BioTech Advanced Chest FOR 8.0
BioTech Experimental Armenforcement FOR 10.0
BioTech Advanced Legenforcement FOR 8.0
BioTech Experimental Footenforcement FOR 4.0
----------------------------------------------
FOR 110.7 PRC 47.7 FIR 72.8 XRR 117.0 ENR 70.0




BioTech Special Force's CPU P-C+5 R-C+5 T-C+5 HCK+10 WEP+10 DEX+5 INT+5
AREA MC5 Synaptic Accelerator P-C+5 R-C+5 T-C+5 HCK+10 WEP+10 DEX+6 INT+5
BioTech (M.O.V.E.O.N.)-CPU TRA+6 FOR+8 HLT+18 STR+3 CON+3
BioTech Berserk-Chip 2 INT-2 STR+3
BioTech Smart-Cybereye 4 T-C+10 WEP+10 INT+4
BioTech Experimental-Heart 1 HLT+10 CON+3 END+10 XRR-5 POR-10
BioTech Reflexbooster 4 WEP-10 DEX+4 INT-3 AGL+15 ATL+5
Tangent Anti-Rad. v Prototype 1X-D INT-5
BioTech Advanced Chest END+8
BioTech Advanced Legenforcement ATL+8
BioTech Experimental Footenforcement AGL+14
Beast WEP-20 STR+5 AGL+25
Crahn Basic Resist Booster 1 FOR+15 HLT+15
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P-C+10 R-C+10 T-C+20 HCK+20 WEP+0 DEX+15 INT+4 TRA+6 FOR+23 HLT+43 STR+11 CON+6 END+18 XRR-5 POR-10 AGL+54 ATL+13



Athletics 55 +13 68
Body Health 50 +43 93
Endurance 0 +18 18
Resist Fire 50 50 (50/1.1=45+72.8===118)
Resist Energy 50 50 (50/1.1=45+70.0===115)
Resist XRay 0 -5 0 (0+117.0==========117)
Resist Poison 0 -10 0 (0+0================0)

Rade
04-08-03, 01:22
Thats the last version of my setup as far as equipment and con goes. Im not saying this is the best or final setup, but thats where I am atm.

Breschau
04-08-03, 01:46
Just as an aside, taking the bare minimum ppu/mst to cast psi shield, without any psu, (and rest dumped into ppw of course), my PE has 57 psi pool. Can cast blessed deflector then shelter without pausing to regen. Haven't actually fought much with psi shield on though the only time was when I got caught in a massive drug haze and couldn't see my attackers :p


And the resist/armour setup Rade outlined sounds roughly the same as the numbers Eddie said he had for resists - when I mentioned in another thread a week or two ago that he had better resists than my PE (though I get slightly better damage% on my shelter and he has to drug to use his).

Rade
04-08-03, 02:02
I didnt even want to start talking about a spy drugging for using shelter considering how bent out of shape ppl get when you start talking about the drugs. But that is _very_ viable and remove the last edge a PE has over the spy.

I forgot how much mana I had with the psi shield setup so I just took a guess, my bad ;) ´

Me and kramer did some testing with low level shelters and there was no difference from dmg%s on it, however when a PPU used the same spell it prevented more, so I guess its related to the amount of PPU or PSU or something weird like that.