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Archeus
01-08-03, 09:43
The amount of whining going on is unreal on Plutos OOC, about how all PPU's are overpowered. I wouldn't mind so much but it is mostly coming from people who don't even play PPU's.

So here it is. You think we are overpowered fine. If I hear someone say I am over powered then we will see what it is like when I don't buff/heal/rez you.

That is what you want, so you can have it.

I'm up to 5 names so far :p (which Forum rules prevents me from posting).

SuperGonser
01-08-03, 09:45
heh i think Spies should strike. We dont even have decent protection. HOW ABOUT SOME ARMOR KK !

Arcadius
01-08-03, 09:51
Evileye didnt' say ppus are overpowered, he's complaining about them being too important.


He said he felt useless in op battles. Apus and PPus are needed. IMO the problem is the other 3 classes aren't needed enough.



Gonser, I agree. I have seen NOTHING about the combat ability of a spy to justify their horrible defense.

Archeus
01-08-03, 09:57
Originally posted by Arcadius
Evileye didnt' say ppus are overpowered, he's complaining about them being too important.


Yes I know, I grepped my console.log. :)

deac
01-08-03, 10:00
with more ppus around I feel that apus are more important now.

Elric
01-08-03, 10:01
Ive said this before about PPU's.

They are supposed to have the best defense in the game so thats fine that they are "almost" unkillable and definately unkillable 1 on 1.

However, the Ability they have to do damage (not huge amounts i agree, but its still damage) and have such an aggressively devastating effect in PvP (Aggressive being the damage boosts and parashock, they are aggressive spells as they adversley effect the opponent and are not used defensively) is what is wrong with the PPU picture.

Its been suggested this in other threads which myself and other people seemed to agree with somewhat.
Damage boosts and parashock should be changed to a shield so that whoever ATTACKS the PPU is affected by the parashock and DamageBoost, this would turn it into a purely defensive spell and remove the aggresive nature of it
i.e. the PPU can "spam" parashocks on a target at will and can be selective about which target to attack. This defines it as an aggressive act (that also does damage to the target further adding to the aggressive nature of parashock), where a shield would only effect those who attack the PPU first, thus turning it into a purely defensive spell as the description of the PPU explains.
This spell would have to be limited to self cast of course to retain the pure defensive nature for the PPU alone. A damage boost shield or parashock shield on a tank or APU would be far to devastating.

Other than that i have no beef with PPU's theyre an invaluable addition to any team or clan, just a bit frustrating when you cant kill the enemy ppu :p

Elric
01-08-03, 10:03
Originally posted by Arcadius
Evileye didnt' say ppus are overpowered, he's complaining about them being too important.


He said he felt useless in op battles. Apus and PPus are needed. IMO the problem is the other 3 classes aren't needed enough.



Gonser, I agree. I have seen NOTHING about the combat ability of a spy to justify their horrible defense.

Tottally agree on everything you said there too

G.0.D.
01-08-03, 10:05
ACK ppus can organise? we should nerf that 2...

Original monk
01-08-03, 10:12
yust $#-§* them people whining about overpowerd this overpowerd that, my hybrid is been nerfed to dead now, whats the next step ? nerf all ppu's to dead ??? What does it needs to stop whining ? a full delete of all monks ?? I worked to freaking hard for this monk dont FORCE me to go apu now ok ? im not in the mood to lom away a few psi levels again o_O

The people whining the hardest about nerf this and nerf that are indeed the onces that suck at pvp and have absolutely no skill, i noticed especially PE's whine the hardest (syn acc should of stayed 95 btw yust for them whining PE's ) and sum spy's, then dont play a freaking spy ok, all play a tank then its harder to kill ya, or even better put in a LE chip and stop whining about nerf this nerf that, cause the only reason they wonna nerf this or that is they got killed at PP1 by a hybrid or a tank that has good buffs or sumthing thats why they go nagging on the forums about NERFING, its not about balance, its about a couple of miezery PE's and spy's without skill whining till they get a nerf, pistolboost my ass, ressurect the liberator my ass, keep youre pussyguns.

STAY OF THEM MONKS we been nerfed to much allready on all sides

thadeus
01-08-03, 10:14
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arcadius
[B]Evileye didnt' say ppus are overpowered, he's complaining about them being too important.


He said he felt useless in op battles. Apus and PPus are needed. IMO the problem is the other 3 classes aren't needed enough.

hes a fricking tank.... not a smart guy .... why ever peeps think a tank should be the biggest part of a fight is beond me they got the brain of a wallnut int 10 ... and u think your going to make a huge difference in a op battle ... as it should be, tanks are brute force and the smart ones like ppus should be more depended on same with spys . and pe's



oh yeah im just talking about character class not evileye im sure hes smart in his own ways lol

Lord Mansion
01-08-03, 11:50
Originally posted by Archeus
The amount of whining going on is unreal on Plutos OOC, about how all PPU's are overpowered. I wouldn't mind so much but it is mostly coming from people who don't even play PPU's.


Just mute the channel and if you see any of the whiners in a fight almost dead, asking for a heal - tell them to shove it up their arse.

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 11:55
Get a clue original? pls? kthxbye..

Arcadius
01-08-03, 12:06
Originally posted by G.0.D.
ACK ppus can organise? we should nerf that 2...



:lol:

CRAIG DIGGERS
01-08-03, 12:23
Originally posted by Archeus
The amount of whining going on is unreal on Plutos OOC, about how all PPU's are overpowered.

aye we are overpowered now :eek:



http://mypage.bluewin.ch/a-z/michaelgisiger/shot0044.bmp


Stop nerving now all ppus / apus and play thx...


:)

SynC_187
01-08-03, 13:03
Originally posted by Arcadius
He said he felt useless in op battles. Apus and PPus are needed. IMO the problem is the other 3 classes aren't needed enough.


Tanks can survive 1 on 1 nearly all the time (now hybrids are nerfed). Try an APU without a PPU. We are fairly close range fighters, but have no real defence. A spy is a long distance fighter. A sniping spy would beat my APU every time from a distance. Thats what their designed for.

When I moan about having no access to a heal spell for APU (without gimping) people say its how it was meant to be. This is how spies were meant to be. Live with it.

I do think you should have your armour, but KK rushed the monk PA to try and buy off people who just had their monk nerfed into the ground.

PPU are an important part of the game. They have a pathetic offence. If you nerf their defence, whats the point in playing a PPU? Then what would the rest of us do?

thadeus
01-08-03, 13:16
dont mean to rag on u craig but that item bar is wacked ,line that shit up or somthign lol but i do like the gun hehe

Promethius
01-08-03, 13:16
Originally posted by SuperGonser
heh i think Spies should strike. We dont even have decent protection. HOW ABOUT SOME ARMOR KK !

I have three things to say about this post.

1) this is a ppu post not spys.

2)spys aren't that weak as long as you DON"T trade skill. I kno a few spys which can hold there own in fights so don't whine about wat u actually CAN achieve....plus spys are MEANT to be the weakest. so stop whining

3) get some skillz

Judge
01-08-03, 13:17
He said he felt useless in op battles. Apus and PPus are needed. IMO the problem is the other 3 classes aren't needed enough.


Tanks are an important part of an OP war, as are PEs and Spies. Tanks provide the muscle and staying power and med to high damage to stop and repel the attackers or crush defence with support from monks. Then PE's/spies can fill in a large variety of roles around that.

Promethius
01-08-03, 13:26
IMO everything is rather balanced. Apus aren't THAT strong cuz there shetleres down to 50%. Tanks are still decent hit takers because they have a good con plus a shelter. A tank as said before can make a huge impact at how well you hold ur lines in a fight whether u are advancing or holding the enemy off. Pe / Spy's always can snipe which is great from getting a ppu off gaurd (damn that spy who got me). Some pes with monk buffs can take an exceptional ammount of dmg in hand to hand combat with the enemy.

So pretty much everything is well balanced and i have HAD a good tiem with my last few Ops.

SuperGonser
01-08-03, 13:28
Originally posted by Promethius
I have three things to say about this post.

1) this is a ppu post not spys.

2)spys aren't that weak as long as you DON"T trade skill. I kno a few spys which can hold there own in fights so don't whine about wat u actually CAN achieve....plus spys are MEANT to be the weakest. so stop whining

3) get some skillz

1. Im trying to get KK to realize weve been screwd.

2. Um, no cause i still die REALLY easy with my battlevest 3

3. Bite me, and its been a month since KK said the Spy PA would be ingame. Still waiting.

and Sync, we spies have been nerfed just as much. Pistol Spies have been practically killed off, and really i have no reason to play a Rifle Spy instead of a Tank. If us Spies did strike i garuntee(agh, bad spelling) 3/5s of the tradeskillers would be gone. :p

Edit: Thane, PEs are good in everything. Hell there armor isnt as bad as ours. May i remind you Duranite was supposed to be Duranium for Spies. Thats what the patch info said, LOL they fuxord that up.

Thane
01-08-03, 13:30
heh i think Spies should strike. We dont even have decent protection. HOW ABOUT SOME ARMOR KK !
imo spies shouldn't be strong at all, they are the damn smart class ffs..... don'tmake mecomment on PEs again :)

PS: PE PA!

thadeus
01-08-03, 13:31
instead of fighting look at the dancing moneys on the sig above this post .. cute little buggers

Promethius
01-08-03, 13:38
Originally posted by SuperGonser
1. Im trying to get KK to realize weve been screwd.

2. Um, no cause i still die REALLY easy with my battlevest 3

3. Bite me, and its been a month since KK said the Spy PA would be ingame. Still waiting.

and Sync, we spies have been nerfed just as much. Pistol Spies have been practically killed off, and really i have no reason to play a Rifle Spy instead of a Tank. If us Spies did strike i garuntee(agh, bad spelling) 3/5s of the tradeskillers would be gone. :p

Edit: Thane, PEs are good in everything. Hell there armor isnt as bad as ours. May i remind you Duranite was supposed to be Duranium for Spies. Thats what the patch info said, LOL they fuxord that up.

my point is that i have seen a few spys who dedicate themselves to fighters and come up with a great con setup that roxors. i've seen this spy (divide) take downa few tanks in battle.

(btw gonser we can discuss this on IRC ^^ go on now)

enablerbr
01-08-03, 13:40
SuperGonser it's correct that if as a spy you drop any idea of a tradeskill from DEX and INT. you can become a powerfull rifle spy. with highest stealth, plenty of runing speed and high DMG. you would be able to take down your enemy before they come close enough to slap your spy. ;)

SuperGonser
01-08-03, 14:01
Yes i see the idea of range, but the problem is in most places for hunting range doesnt matter (Outzone Storages, and others) and thats where our problem is. All i am asking is some type of armor better than BattleVest 3. Hell create a BattleVest 4 set and make it all usable at 40 str and ill be fine.

Promethius
01-08-03, 14:05
ok anyone kno wat spys can use armor wise. persay liek all teh high ones for example inq 1........etc.

then tell me the max CON for a spy is. i will come up with a halfe decent con setup.

enablerbr
01-08-03, 14:10
spies can't use inq 1 or dura 1 anymore. as for resists you couldn't put enough points in to make it worth while. as for full battle 3 armour only if you use a STR imp can you wear the helmet. which means 1 less imp for other needed skills.

deac
01-08-03, 14:10
k soo only spys get buffs? the rest can go fok yourselfs

kurai
01-08-03, 14:11
Originally posted by Promethius
ok anyone kno wat spys can use armor wise. persay liek all teh high ones for example inq 1........etc.

then tell me the max CON for a spy is. i will come up with a halfe decent con setup. Cant use any of the specific damage type armours. CON is 40.

Don't waste your time - there's no such thing as a decent Spy con setup.

SynC_187
01-08-03, 14:23
Spies will get their armour. Eventually. Monks got theirs, but for most situations the holy spirit vest is better....

I've played as a capped spy. If you set it up right and play with a spies strengths they are a strong char. If you choose to play with close range pistols on a puny character that is your choice. They are not very strong, so even with new armour, range is still going to be their strong point.

Its the same old thing. It just moves from class to class.

greendonkeyuk
01-08-03, 14:29
spies aint supposed to be the weakest. all classes are supposed to have a fighting chance, its called balance actually.

Kurai, youre right there is no uber spy set up. However in the right hands there are spy setups that excel above all others. Im working on one right now.... at work as it happens. :eek:

As youre on a different server once ive got it crafted ill pm it to you and you can give me some feedback.

Promethius

ST 40, Con 40

Cant wear anything better than battlevest 3.

Promethius
01-08-03, 14:55
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
spies aint supposed to be the weakest. all classes are supposed to have a fighting chance, its called balance actually.

Kurai, youre right there is no uber spy set up. However in the right hands there are spy setups that excel above all others. Im working on one right now.... at work as it happens. :eek:

As youre on a different server once ive got it crafted ill pm it to you and you can give me some feedback.

Promethius

ST 40, Con 40

Cant wear anything better than battlevest 3.

well wat does battlevest 3 give.....anything for resists.....and boots and helm wat are the resists that u can get. 40 CON....how many pts is that...i kno 40 x 5 = 200 but i think its more than 200.

and liek i said spys aren't meant to take down tanks. i mean if the best skilled tank and spy went at it....theoreticaly the tank should win. when you say its balancing.....well it is. You can poke / resaerch /hack / CSt / anything invovling INT and you can stealth. While we tanks just big dumb but can pack a punch.

Pitspawn
01-08-03, 15:05
To those who bitch about removing parashock. Ill say this to you all.

If they remove parashock, people would moan after a while because enemies can get away from death easily. They would complain that already hard to kill PPUs become totally invincible. KK would respond in an across the board significant drop in run speed.

Parashock is there for a reason. They just need it so that parashock spamming is unviable (Raise cast cost 3x)

Archeus
01-08-03, 15:06
Well according to the fiction tanks didn't win because they were the best fighters. They won because they could spit them out of clone tanks to replace the numbers (Offtopic: Is that why female tanks have funny hips?).

But there are different kinds of balance.

For example PPU, while excellent defense the attack is sucky enough to keep people away, but then you have XP gain and an extremly high maintaince costs in repairs/replacements.

Promethius
01-08-03, 15:33
well how bout this. Make tanks weaker...but we get 3 lives...or that we can clone our selves. is that wat u want. Cuz it may be the storyline but its not viable. Tanks are just stronger. And this basicaly follows all the other games ever invented. You got ur classic mage and warrior. Then u get ur smart lil elf (spy) lol.

btw pitspawn i have no probs with parashock considering i ma a ppu ^^. BUT wat i think they should do to save srewing the parashock up is that they make teh drug have a lasting effect. it doesn't take away the shock but acts as a blocker for say about 5 secs for the weak ones 10 for medium and 15 secs for the expensives ones. So for 15 secs u cannot take the drug. if u chain eat the drug u get a side effect(fuzzy screen walk funny).

enablerbr
01-08-03, 15:35
Originally posted by Promethius
.... Then u get ur smart lil elf (spy) lol.

just for that remark i should ask a GM to give my spy god mode so i can spank your arse.:p

Promethius
01-08-03, 15:39
hey cmon lol. i was gunna say goblin but elf sounded WAY cooler

Sleawer
01-08-03, 15:42
What every class is suppossed to be? (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=198&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

Well, maybe it's flawed in some aspects; I already had my flamming time with an 11 pages thread.

In my opinion is a matter of holding roles, people cpmplain because the ppu holds too many roles (or is too important) in every aspect in the game... but maybe he holds it because the ppu is who benefits the least from them, I never had stopped to think about it before.

The ppu is important, maybe we could make the other classes as important as the ppu. Read the link, and maybe you can find flaws in your own class, and ways to improve it.

SynC_187
01-08-03, 15:42
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
spies aint supposed to be the weakest. all classes are supposed to have a fighting chance, its called balance actually.

There is a balance. It only works if you take advantage of a spies strong points, damage and accuracy at long range.

Would you expect to put a weedy little kid up against a heavyweight boxer and have the kid win? Just look at the char models. Thats what your doing.

Promethius
01-08-03, 15:50
Originally posted by Sleawer
What every class is suppossed to be? (http://www.neocron.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=198&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

Well, maybe it's flawed in some aspects; I already had my flamming time with an 11 pages thread.

In my opinion is a matter of holding roles, people cpmplain because the ppu holds too many roles (or is too important) in every aspect in the game... but maybe he holds it because the ppu is who benefits the least from them, I never had stopped to think about it before.

The ppu is important, maybe we could make the other classes as important as the ppu. Read the link, and maybe you can find flaws in your own class, and ways to improve it.

I agree with this. My role is ppu and tank. I like the ppu cuz i don't die...unless i am dumb ^^. as long as i keep teh sanctum and the heals commin strong i am near invincible. BUT its not. The role of the ppu is basicaly to keep eevyrone alive. I don't really see the fuss with that. but if we couldn't keep ouselves alive how are we suppsoe to keep others alive?? So peeps stop saying nerf cuz u can't kill us. were not suppose to die......easily.

Tanks well they are strong. Generally don't have too much a prob fighting other classes than monks. Apus (unbuffed) is always a good fight. I don't really see wats wrong with tanks either.

Apus basicaly NEED another ppu on there ass alot to stand there ground. But other than that they are well balanced.

Pes...never played one and never used a combat spy.

But spys i think they need an extra 50 lvls in int so they can be the I r leet.

Sleawer
01-08-03, 15:56
I think people is not complaining because "ppu's cannot die" Prom, as far as I have read the problem is ppu's being too important for everything. That's fail of KK, they did the ppu great and important, but not the other classes. Here comes my reasoning:

Maybe is because the ppu benefits the least from this important roles.

I cant say for sure, only KK knows, and only they can change it.

Cubico
01-08-03, 16:07
Originally posted by Archeus

I'm up to 5 names so far :p (which Forum rules prevents me from posting).

Then post the list ingame.

Richard Angelus
01-08-03, 16:16
I think there are many ways to make the other classes more important.....but most of them don't want such a thing....
they only want to deal more damage....but the point is

the only way to make other classes more important
is to give them nice 'weapons' with them they could helpt the full team or decrease the power of the other team...

like a kami drone (EMP shock) that give a synaptic to TC...
the vehicles have to be more important (a PPU can do nothing against a vehicle)

this is the only reason to make the other classes more important...
atm the PPU is the only char that support the full team directly...
no other class do this atm

Promethius
01-08-03, 16:32
well honestly i don't see a problem witha ppu being effective in battle. So they hold a highly important role. so wat its not like they have the fun of running up to people and ganking them. =P.

Sleawer
01-08-03, 18:22
Richard, I dont think everyone wants more firepower or nicer weapons. In the case of the tank is a valid point, but there are many non-exploited roles in this game; I guess with time KK will make such things possible.

kurai
01-08-03, 18:53
Originally posted by greendonkeyuk
Kurai, youre right there is no uber spy set up. However in the right hands there are spy setups that excel above all others. Im working on one right now.... at work as it happens. :eek:

As youre on a different server once ive got it crafted ill pm it to you and you can give me some feedback.
Please do - I've been playing a Spy a *looooong* time, and I think I have tried most conceptual setups, but I am willing to concede that there's some unlikely combination I have overlooked :D

Carinth
01-08-03, 19:40
--- Wire Tap Recording of Agent Tank4Life's Home Phone

Tank: Hello?
Unkown: It's me.
Tank: Ah, how are the preperations going?
Unkown: Excellent, we're way ahead of schedule. These people are as easy to manipulate as sheep!
Tank: Don't get to cocky, if we move to fast they might catch on to what we're doing. We can not afford to let that happen. Clear?
Unkown: Of course Tank, there is no need to worry. I barely had to do anything to get everyone to turn against the Hybrids. It was quite brilliant, if I do say so myself, to even get some famous pure monks to join in the arguments against Hybrids.
Tank: Yes you did quite well, what are you working on now?
Unkown: Ah the PPU's are my current Target. They won't be very difficult either. Have you seen what they're capable of? Running around with an entire army chasing them. Laughing at 3 people shooting them point blank range. It won't take much at all to get them nerfed. I've already infiltrated the APU's and am encouraging them to help me in the "balancing" of their PPU brothers. They are very recepetive, some even going beyond what I hoped for!
Tank: That sounds too good to be true, maybe we should hold off on the next stage? It will acomplish one of our primary goals, which is no small feat.
Unkown: You worry to much! Once the PPU's are back to being subserviant support characters, mindlessly following others around, the APU's will have no chance against us. The momentum will be such that they can do nothing! They will fizzle their spells in fustration while we reduce them to moderate additional damage in a team. They will nolonger be needed to take out ppu's, we reduce their damage, and viola! Apu's will be done for. You are right though, we should tread carefuly. This will mean the total extermination of Monks as a power. They are the major obstruction in our plans for a return to how things should be.
Tank: Yes, with Monks out of the picture we will once again reign supreme. We can slap the silly spies around and get them back in Medicare making our weapons. We'll keep the PE's around as targeting practice. It has been far to long since I saw an army of smurfs!
Unkown: Speaking of spies, did you notice how I managed to get them to hijack most all the Monk threads with mention of their silly spy PA? It was quite a lot of work, but I think it payed off. The spies are very good at directing the Monk's focus away from the important issues. They end up back in the age old arguments about petty little things. So the Monk's miss what is is happening against them! It's quite beautiful.
Tank: Very Nice, I did notice that but I wasn't sure if it was your handywork. Anyway, I have to go get my PA polished, it's stained with the blood from some noob Monk I took out earlier. I will contact you in a week. Viva Tankocron!
Unkown: Viva Tankocron!

-- End Transmision

Rade
01-08-03, 19:43
Erhm. I made a Spy setup which has the same staying power as a PE when it comes to health and armor+resists, its just lacking the shelter. And it has alot better damage output, im taking on tanks in duels no problem. It does however require you to have capped dex and int close to 90.

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 19:56
I love how everyone assumes that everytime a tank mentions balance in any form they get malevolantly sarcastic about how tanks think everyone else should be nerfed....

kurai
01-08-03, 19:57
Originally posted by Carinth
--- Wire Tap Recording of Agent Tank4Life's Home Phone
Well - as far as the Spy part goes ...
The hybrids bitched like fucking crazy after an *astonishingly* obviously needed nerf.
Then monks get PA. :wtf:
Hybrids have been fucked over (albeit reasonably) for about 2 weeks.
Spies have been fucked over ... well ... forever.
Originally posted by Rade
Erhm. I made a Spy setup which has the same staying power as a PE when it comes to health and armor+resistsHuh ? You are telling me you started with 20 more STR and 25 more CON, and *that's the best you could do ?* o_O
You must have created the shittiest PE setup *ever*

Rade
01-08-03, 20:02
Im not even gonna dignify that with an answer. Oh poop I already did. *hint* maybe you should look into what equipment a spu actually can use and youll notice that you have far better armor than a PE?

Sleawer
01-08-03, 20:04
OMG Carinth, you convinced me. APU MONKS!! do not fight against our brothers ppu's, we are close to retake the POWER OF NEOCRON!! do not let our enemies move away monks from what belong to us, LONG LIVE TO CRAHN!!

haha Carinth good one, that was hilarious. :lol:

Pity that you are Tsunami :p

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 20:07
Rade is on drugs..thats all i can say..Rade is on drugs...

the only armour that adds anythign besides force pierce is belts and rad suit...rad suit = useless....belts = shit copared to total PE armour....and psi armour...quite weak..sure full first set..but thats pathetic..no where near a PE's armour values...and CON..u just cant super tweak it to be better then a PE..being 20 levels or so lower...

Rade
01-08-03, 20:10
Come to the test server and fight my spy and youll see.

Richard Angelus
01-08-03, 20:12
@Sleawer

once someone posted the Idea about supportdrones (drones that help the Team or decrease the power of the other Team) in the german droner thread....and you know what?

there was some ppl who lought about that...the thing they are realy angry about is....if a PPU shelter an other runner....drones are useless

that was only an example...

the general problem is that most ppl have an other opinion what balancing is....how the result has to look like
and there are so many ways to balance a game...
from:
every player have a chance to beat evenry other class

to:
class A could beat class B, but have no chance against class C

or:
class A is very hard to level and to play (high costs and you need a high player skill to get the max power with this class)
class B is easy to play and you need not much player skill to reach the max power
=>class A always beat class B if the player of class A have a high skill (then it does not matter if the player have the same player skill)


i would love to see what KK think balancing is

/PS: sorry for my english....i hope you could understand what i mean

Sleawer
01-08-03, 20:19
I understand it perfect.

For every person the idea of balance differs depending on their own interests, and that's how the world spins. The job of KK is try to balance all those ideas and mix them in one concept. To understand the complexity of it, get your examples and apply them to everything in the game; exp gain, combat efectieveness, tradeskills, leveling difficulty, subskill system, etc... and try to find balance between all of this. That's KK hard job :)

kurai
01-08-03, 20:30
Originally posted by Rade
Im not even gonna dignify that with an answer. Oh poop I already did. *hint* maybe you should look into what equipment a spu actually can use and youll notice that you have far better armor than a PE? Well - let's see ...

What can a PE use that a Spy cant ...

Bones- Experimental Head, Arm, Chest, Leg, Foot, BatQueen Chest & Arm.

Helmet - Crahn Holy Shelter, Battle 3, Duranit 1 thru 3, Inquisition 1 thru 3

Vest - Crahn Holy Shelter, Duranit 1 thru 3, Inquisition 1 thru 3, Titan, Viper King

Belt - Crahn Holy Shelter

Pants - Crahn Holy Shelter, Duranit 1 thru 3, Inquisition 1 thru 3

Boots - Crahn Holy Shelter, all Inquisition.


What can a Spy can use that a PE cant ...

Belt - Heavy Deflector, Medium & Heavy Fire/Enrgy/Poison

Vest - AntiRadiation suit.

*And* you have an extra 125 CON points to use.

For someone who claims to have been looking after the balancing in another MMORPG you come out with some astonishingly biased, innacurate, or just plain wrong nonsense.

Stop embarrassing yourself.

Rade
01-08-03, 20:32
Very simple, come to the test server and Ill show you first hand.

**edit: And that fine little list of yours is wrong.

kurai
01-08-03, 20:33
Originally posted by Rade
Very simple, come to the test server and Ill show you first hand. OK - name a time and place.

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 20:37
As to why she refuses to simply state the setup...hmm..ok kurai just let us know..this should be interesting

Rade
01-08-03, 20:37
character name is .Rade, time is now.

Rade
01-08-03, 20:40
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
As to why she refuses to simply state the setup...hmm..ok kurai just let us know..this should be interesting

I would but kurais arrogant response ticked me off, so now i dont feel like helping him anymore, just prove him wrong.

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 20:40
Kurai is an arrogant bumbleface...



but i luv him

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 20:41
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
As to why she refuses to simply state the setup...hmm..ok kurai just let us know..this should be interesting He.

And, Kurai, there are a few viable (read; pretty good but not absolutely god like) Spy setups.
Side note;
A very well setup and played spy, will beat a well played and setup PE.

Weapons are what makes and breaks that fight.

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 20:43
i know Rade is a HE but FFS ANYONE WITH A FEMALE PE AVATAR IS ASKING FOR IT

It beign called she..ofcourse ;)..


and albiet a psy being setup good...very possible..but its not physically or statistically possible for them to have better armour then a PE as Rade implied.

Rade
01-08-03, 20:54
kurai didnt want to fight as it turned out, I will fight anyone that wants to however.

A screenie of my armor numbers for kurai:
http://w1.708.telia.com/~u70804208/untitled.jpg

kurai
01-08-03, 20:57
Well - that was asomewhat pointless excercise ...

Console.log transcript ...

08-01-2003 19:31:13 > 'lo
08-01-2003 19:31:25 > Lets hear about this "ubar" spy setup then
08-01-2003 19:31:33 > DIRECT> .Rade : Lets fight.
08-01-2003 19:31:52 > DIRECT> .Rade : Deck 1 fine with you?
08-01-2003 19:31:55 > And what would that prove, exactly ?
08-01-2003 19:32:19 > I quote "Look at your equipment - you have much better armour than a PE"
08-01-2003 19:32:21 > DIRECT> .Rade : That a spy setup can be good, you have a decent PvP setup here?
08-01-2003 19:32:37 > *checks*
08-01-2003 19:32:42 > DIRECT> .Rade : I have over 100 combined in every resist. Thats not the point.
08-01-2003 19:33:39 > I'm sorry - I simply dont believe you
08-01-2003 19:33:58 > DIRECT> .Rade : Fight me and you will see.
08-01-2003 19:34:51 > Only *possible* way you could do that is with virtually zero ATL/HLT/END, X-ray suit, Basic resist 2, Energy belt
08-01-2003 19:35:07 > THat still leaves you woefully short in anything but x-ray, and with zero fire
08-01-2003 19:35:22 > Prove me wrong
08-01-2003 19:35:40 > DIRECT> .Rade : I have 92 agility and 70 athletics, its enough for me.
08-01-2003 19:35:58 > How can you possibly claim to cover each resist with 100 ?
08-01-2003 19:36:06 > It's just not possible in the mechanics of the game
08-01-2003 19:36:12 > DIRECT> .Rade : Well I dont actually, I dont have any poison on this char.
08-01-2003 19:36:24 > DIRECT> .Rade : I didnt bother with adding that to the setup. But the others are.
08-01-2003 19:36:31 > OK
08-01-2003 19:36:42 > So how do you cover 100 xray/fire/energy ?
08-01-2003 19:37:15 > DIRECT> .Rade : With a combination of armor and resists. Your mistake is that you assume that duranit and inq armor is out of reach.
08-01-2003 19:37:38 > DIRECT> .Rade : No longer having the herc makes it harder, but still very possible.
08-01-2003 19:37:41 > DIRECT> .Rade : Dont even have to drug.
08-01-2003 19:37:43 > With impage/drugs it is, but at huge penalties
08-01-2003 19:37:51 > DIRECT> .Rade : With drugs it would be even easier.
08-01-2003 19:38:02 > And even then its the lower end of the armour range
08-01-2003 19:38:10 > The numbers simpy still dont add up
08-01-2003 19:38:20 > DIRECT> .Rade : They do.
08-01-2003 19:38:31 > So prove it to me. Tell me the setup
08-01-2003 19:38:35 > I'll do the math
08-01-2003 19:38:48 > DIRECT> .Rade : No. I dont feel like helping you since you are being such an ass. funny how that works.
08-01-2003 19:38:54 > *shrug*
08-01-2003 19:39:14 > I have been perfectly rational and exact in my statements
08-01-2003 19:39:26 > You have been making unfounded statements with not a hint of proof
08-01-2003 19:39:31 > What am I supposed to make of that ?
08-01-2003 19:39:37 > DIRECT> .Rade : no you havent. the first thing you said is that i must have made the worst ever PE setup.
08-01-2003 19:40:04 > If you could make a spy it's equivalent in armour /ressit, then yes
08-01-2003 19:40:29 > DIRECT> .Rade : I offered to show you in a fight. im gonna post something on the boards.
08-01-2003 19:40:36 > Go ahead
08-01-2003 19:41:13 > Are we done here ?
08-01-2003 19:43:28 > DIRECT> .Rade : yah, since you dont wanna fight its pointless
08-01-2003 19:43:40 > OK

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 21:21
thats not fucking possible..those armour numbers beat a tanks...

btw armour != resists...so you may have a combined armour/resist of 100..but not resists (h4x or photshopped that pic)

kurai
01-08-03, 21:23
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
thats not fucking possible..those armour numbers beat a tanks... As a minor aside that setup looks to be using a Herc. Rade was rank 67 with a Radsuit on.

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 21:25
Spy getting 95 STR not using drugs (fuck even WITH drugs???!!)

kurai
01-08-03, 21:28
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
Spy getting 95 STR not using drugs (fuck even WITH drugs???!!) The Hercs on Test Server were also without reqs for a while. I have a character that had a Dimension Splitter implanted before the req change - doesn't meet reqs now, but the chip is still active.

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 21:29
Rade wasn't using it.

lol, that setup isn't that hard to work out...
infact I think that's pretty viable, it's close to what I would end up with on my rifle spy but he's not destined to have a combat roll now....

heh, funny, I thought you'd have done something very slightly different ya know =P



Originally posted by kurai
The Hercs on Test Server were also without reqs for a while. I have a character that had a Dimension Splitter implanted before the req change - doesn't meet reqs now, but the chip is still active.
uhhhhhhhhhhhh
that's funny because when my char (who had THREE) was logged after this, they were all blacked out and didn't give the bonuses.

kurai
01-08-03, 21:34
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
uhhhhhhhhhhhh
that's funny because when my char (who had THREE) was logged after this, they were all blacked out and didn't give the bonuses. Yeah. My PE with Herc, and Spy with DS *are* blacked out, but the PE with DS isn't.
More Neocrack weirdness :D

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 21:34
post the setup then because i cant find a combination that gives those numbers withotu extreme drugging..

Sleawer
01-08-03, 21:54
Rade already posted the setup time ago, you just need to change two implants. My question is the same as I did that time...

"I know you can achieve those resists and str/dex enought to use that armor, I dont want to enter even in the point that you are wearing 3 MC-5 chips (2 now), when those are the most hard chips to retrieve with a spy, but anyway I would like you to post here the weapons you can use and the stats in dmg/RoF/range"

I ask before I worked in a spy setup time ago, based in a viable tradeskill (100 base), and with every rifle in the game capped, but Disruptor with 176% dmg.

I still dont see the spy rewarded enought except in having a wider weapon reource due a higher dex lvl in the main skill.

Arcadius
01-08-03, 22:13
Originally posted by SynC_187
This is how spies were meant to be. Live with it.



I'm questioning why it has to be that way. I've seen nothing amazing about the spies combat ability to make me say "OMGMOGMOGMO THEY NEED THAT CRAP DEFENSE TO BALANCE THEM".



Originally posted by SynC_187


I do think you should have your armour, but KK rushed the monk PA to try and buy off people who just had their monk nerfed into the ground.



I'm not a spy. :rolleyes: Read my title.

Arcadius
01-08-03, 22:21
Originally posted by Judge
Tanks are an important part of an OP war, as are PEs and Spies. Tanks provide the muscle and staying power and med to high damage to stop and repel the attackers or crush defence with support from monks.


I AGREE! That's what I told him.




Originally posted by Judge
Then PE's/spies can fill in a large variety of roles around that.

I disagree. Aside from hacking, pes/spies are somewhat useless.

But that's just my opinion.



Originally posted by enablerbr
SuperGonser it's correct that if as a spy you drop any idea of a tradeskill from DEX and INT. you can become a powerfull rifle spy. with highest stealth, plenty of runing speed and high DMG. you would be able to take down your enemy before they come close enough to slap your spy. ;)


GONSER IS TALKING ABOUT DEFENSE FFS.




Whether or not you take a tradeskill has NILL to do with defense ffs.


IMO there is nothing that says that spies are supposed to be weak. People will use the storyline to justify anything ffs. :rolleyes:

IMO spies are supposed to be the 2nd best psi users, their not. IMO spies should be the master of technology. The polar opposite of the monk in general. I think spies should be able to use gadgets or special armors to generate shields around them to help their defense. It wouldn't be overpowered at all.

Think of Deus Ex. Think of the temporary cloak, hazmat, bullet protection, energy vest items that wore off after a while. A spy should be a master of stuff like that.

Arcadius
01-08-03, 22:25
Btw i would love to see this super secret spy setup or whatever. I have a hard time swallowing that spies can have awesome defense.



I have fought many tanks, and their were a couple with a great resist setup. Same for PEs. However I've fought many spies and haven't found any(except one, but he was exploiting. SURPRISE) that have a defense setup that makes me say "OMG WOW". I would have thought that sooner or later a few spies would be popping up with some "TEH UBER" spy setup.

kurai
01-08-03, 22:31
Originally posted by Sleawer
Rade already posted the setup time ago, you just need to change two implants. My question is the same as I did that time...

"I know you can achieve those resists and str/dex enought to use that armor, I dont want to enter even in the point that you are wearing 3 MC-5 chips (2 now), when those are the most hard chips to retrieve with a spy, but anyway I would like you to post here the weapons you can use and the stats in dmg/RoF/range"

I ask before I worked in a spy setup time ago, based in a viable tradeskill (100 base), and with every rifle in the game capped, but Disruptor with 176% dmg.

I still dont see the spy rewarded enought except in having a wider weapon reource due a higher dex lvl in the main skill. Yeah.
The armour setup is simple enough ... Inq 1 Helmet, Pants, Boots, X-Ray suit vest, heavy energy belt.

This requires STR 49 ...

The only thing I cant work out currently is how Rade gets STR +9 & DEX +15 with currently available imps and their associated requirements, without drugs. (assuming he can't use a Herc on Test).

(Oh - and as an aside - even assuming Hercs *were* useable Rades posted setup is still wrong - SF gives DEX+5, not +6)

KidWithStick
01-08-03, 22:55
yea PPU's are overpowered because there hard to kill...:rolleyes:

SovKhan
02-08-03, 00:27
i think the reason spys have low defence is because if it was higher then they could shoot you from afar, you try to close gap maybe get a shot off or not wouldnt even hurt them. then they stealth go heal and your stuck in same situation again. ionno.

Pitspawn
02-08-03, 02:05
Hmm maybe rade is using ... BZ2 / MOVEON / SF / SA / RC3 / STRH2 / SB2?

Would give 103/49/46/109/20 at caps. With that setup you'd only have a +25 bonus to RC and a +30 bonus to WEP. Having as much AGL/ATL as you stated would mean the weapon stats would be pretty poor on the top level rares. You could probably get close to capping say a RoG though...

kurai
02-08-03, 04:09
Originally posted by Pitspawn
Hmm maybe rade is using ... BZ2 / MOVEON / SF / SA / RC3 / STRH2 / SB2?

Would give 103/49/46/109/20 at caps. With that setup you'd only have a +25 bonus to RC and a +30 bonus to WEP. Having as much AGL/ATL as you stated would mean the weapon stats would be pretty poor on the top level rares. You could probably get close to capping say a RoG though... Was wearing the ARSe suit, which reqs DEX 115, so that doesn't work either.

Still can't see a way withiut drugs.

Rade
02-08-03, 05:15
Originally posted by Sleawer
Rade already posted the setup time ago, you just need to change two implants. My question is the same as I did that time...

"I know you can achieve those resists and str/dex enought to use that armor, I dont want to enter even in the point that you are wearing 3 MC-5 chips (2 now), when those are the most hard chips to retrieve with a spy, but anyway I would like you to post here the weapons you can use and the stats in dmg/RoF/range"

I ask before I worked in a spy setup time ago, based in a viable tradeskill (100 base), and with every rifle in the game capped, but Disruptor with 176% dmg.

I still dont see the spy rewarded enought except in having a wider weapon reource due a higher dex lvl in the main skill.

Didnt have a spy on test server at the time so couldnt actually look at the stats. Now that I have.. capped aiming and damage on the RoG. Havent bothered to look at the other guns yet.

Archeus
02-08-03, 11:21
Can all the spies... GET OFF MY THREAD DAMMIT Q(>_<Q)

Don't make me parashock you! :p

Rade
02-08-03, 11:37
Its a hijack ok :P

enablerbr
02-08-03, 11:49
Originally posted by Archeus
Can all the spies... GET OFF MY THREAD DAMMIT Q(>_<Q)

Don't make me parashock you! :p

that's cause spies think the PPU issue SUX. :p
oh so your a fantom parashock spammer.:D

Promethius
02-08-03, 12:44
Originally posted by Arcadius
Btw i would love to see this super secret spy setup or whatever. I have a hard time swallowing that spies can have awesome defense.



I have fought many tanks, and their were a couple with a great resist setup. Same for PEs. However I've fought many spies and haven't found any(except one, but he was exploiting. SURPRISE) that have a defense setup that makes me say "OMG WOW". I would have thought that sooner or later a few spies would be popping up with some "TEH UBER" spy setup.

Well PEs can take dmgs of cursed souls better than tanks can...SO whoever says Pes suck well you jsut beva met the uber PE people. They are out there or atleast on saturn. Because there shelter works better than there resists. All because of the xray spy PA you don't have to worry about xray so that frees up more accessibility in con. Bah i am sick of explaining spys can be decent....not fight 4 tanks at once but decent.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 13:11
Originally posted by Rade

Didnt have a spy on test server at the time so couldnt actually look at the stats. Now that I have.. capped aiming and damage on the RoG. Havent bothered to look at the other guns yet.

If you have time post here or PM me what weapons have you allowed to use and their stats, if it's sattisfactory I would like to look into some setups I have in mind.

Rade
02-08-03, 13:15
Can use all rifles. Ill check what stats i get on em later. I know the RoG is capped but I doubt the others are.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 13:29
Would be enought with "decent" damage, to cap the others you need to have all rifle combat implants and spec your weapon lore to have half decent agl.

That's what is not rewarded in spies imo, they are the only class with 100 dex, why arent they able to cap their dex weapons without gimping themselves?

In some way I feel for them the same with my psi, I am a pure agressive psi user, the only class with 100 psi, why I cant cap my mana as tanks cap health? KK is already changing some things to allow this, I think they should do the same with spies in dexterity.

Promethius
02-08-03, 14:08
Originally posted by Sleawer
Would be enought with "decent" damage, to cap the others you need to have all rifle combat implants and spec your weapon lore to have half decent agl.

That's what is not rewarded in spies imo, they are the only class with 100 dex, why arent they able to cap their dex weapons without gimping themselves?

In some way I feel for them the same with my psi, I am a pure agressive psi user, the only class with 100 psi, why I cant cap my mana as tanks cap health? KK is already changing some things to allow this, I think they should do the same with spies in dexterity.

Well i disagree with the psi part. You say u cannot get max % without gimping urself. Right? WRONG. Apus need a ppu to be viable anyways. And ppus have psi combat 3. I build around this knowing when u cap ur spells with the psi 3. Then give urself a decent pool. Work with wat u got and stop complaining.

Rade
02-08-03, 14:16
Disruptor - 163%
First Love - 164%
Silent Hunter - 167%
Ray of God - 178%
Pain Easer - 178%

I have some points in vehicle use tho that I cant get rid of due to LoMs being borked on test server.

Pitspawn
02-08-03, 14:43
Rade i fail to see how you can obtain 49 STR and 115 DEX on a spy at the same time without using drugs...

There arent many STR giving imps in this game...

Bz1/Bz2/Bz3/MOVEON/Marine/Hurcules/SB1/SB2/SB3/Hbb1/Hbb2/Hbb3

Of which a spy can only realistically use Bz1/Bz2/MOVEON/SB1/SB2/Hbb1/Hbb2

Thats a maximum of +3 STR per implant slot. You need 9 STR, so would need 3 out of the 5 implant slots.

Forgetting the fact that the backbones negate DEX the last 2 avail imps could only buy you a maximum of 11 DEX (or 12 if you use Riggers Dream O_o) Thats still 4 short of ARS.

Getting that setup is totally impossible without drugs. If hurcules didnt have a requirement then i could figure it out...

MOVEON/Hurcules/SF/SA/RC-3/STR2/RB-4
110 | 49 | 51 | 115 | 20

But well, hurcules does have a STR req of 95.

Rade
02-08-03, 14:50
Im using xstrong. And yeah, before mc5 reqs it was damn neat, swap moveon for herc and bez-2 for DS and use shelter. The reason i told kurai ingame that i didnt need to drug was that I was missing moveon and a booster at the time so I during recent tests Ive been on a load of drugs, forgot that you would still need at least one drug with the final setup.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 14:53
Originally posted by Promethius

Well i disagree with the psi part. You say u cannot get max % without gimping urself. Right? WRONG. Apus need a ppu to be viable anyways. And ppus have psi combat 3. I build around this knowing when u cap ur spells with the psi 3. Then give urself a decent pool. Work with wat u got and stop complaining.

Sorry Prom, but apu's dont need ppu's to be viable, and definetly I want to go out of my appt without a ppu strapped to my ass. I cap dmg in FA and HL without a ppu, and if I get a frame of DS, surely I will be able to have around 320 mana.

And FYI, in the character creatiion I DO NOT have a ppu asigned to my apu, so maybe you should stop complaining about having a ppu in your arse all the time, and really work in what you have. Because seems you know very little of apu monks, or even of monks.

Remember I have been a monk at least the same time you have been a tank, and your tank was a babe when I was already capped. That should mean I know something about monks, shouldnt it?

Sleawer
02-08-03, 15:13
+4 str from a drug is a big boost Rade, atm I will stick with my setup. Please can you put here RoF and Range too? Is well know that wep lore gives dmg %, but RoF is only r-c and dex, not sure about range. Also if you have speced wep lore, it prevents the slighty tradeskill, again in a class with 100 int, who is not able to even hack? hmm

Well, I hafta disagree with Spy being better Joat than a PE, but anyway I can see you are working for a good setup, maybe for your pride more than getting one, but it's still a reason. Why dont you post it here, I'm really interested in your work.

Rade
02-08-03, 15:17
*shrug* Im usually on one drug or the other with my PE as well, I dont have a problem with it. I might post the setup later when im done fiddling with it. And theres definately room for hacking considering you have both SF and SA with this setup. A base hacking of 75 is only 20 less wpl and that gets you op-level hacking...


**edit: And im not planning on ever making a spy on retail, i just got tired of the whining about paper armor when thats far from the truth.

Trip
02-08-03, 15:17
gotta love pits ubah skill setup research dedication :) neways back on topic i actually think PPUs aren't strong enough. Well they are strong enough but i dont think they're support role isn't strong enough. What I thought KK was trying to do was to prolong OP fights and to make PvP more fun more than nerf the PPUs coz of their abilities. Now i just see people running back and forth the line just to get a heal. and when they dont get back they die. Now pile a bit of whoopass onto 1 tank and he's down and rinse and repeat. eventually its just a PPU left (or 2) and they dash for the GR. Maybe a boost of 50% to what it is now (to make it so it was 75% of what it was before the hybrid nerf)

ok the spy issue...range is our freind? well duh! but its the fact that it isn't our best freind which sticks around. it'll prob go dump you and move on to the next dude. The fact is that as a sniper i can probably get 2 shots (4 if i'm lucky) and then a tank charges me. I cant keep the tank at range and neither can i take it up close. its a lose, lose situation other than my stealth in which i just gotta run alot to another vantage point and rinse and repeat when the tanks already healed up. Atm its not worth it unless the target is mob hunting and he thinks he's taking shots from mobs which is....lol as hunting spots for my enemy is in their territory which is hard enough to survive in.

Now yesterday me and 2 other spies with stealth went to shoot up some ppl killing one of our lvlers. Now first we stealth GR. Dash for a storage zone (we had stealth 2s) recovered from synap. Stealthed and went scouting around and couldn't find the bugger. We got our 3rd spy in (doesn't have stealth 2) and we covered his synap. in the time he had synap, enemy comes in we nail but he gets out in time (gawd 2 spies cant even take out a SI tank!) then another one comes in and the same happens. Now we decide to go outside. We see 3 enemies, 1 tank 1 PPU and 1 APU. Now you can tell we're pretty screwed. by now 1 of us has bailed/been killed. Me and the other dude now goes and snipes the tank. Guess what. we each get in 2 shots and bam. he's in our face with a gatling cannon. Only till i get down to 50 hlth am i able to fire off my stealther (wtf! There's a bloody delay in the time that i can fire it as soon as i pull it out! bout 3 seconds!!!!) now thats 20 seconds of pratical security. but oh no i get dmg boosted and i'm lit up like a christmas tree. now the tank goes after my freind while i get the fun of a PPU and an APU. Now i unstealth at a point and get parashocked (oh joy) The apu pulls out a HL and then i manage to stealth again. Then he pulls out a barrel. I dash like hell and then the barrel hits a tree and the second shot misses. Now i run around abit till HALLEIGHJUAH (add choir singers and bright lights. Also think i spelt that wrong)
i see a WBT. I run right next to it and joy....the PSIs get a big close range champ on their hands. I manage to run away to rockshore where i do a hack and run (just to piss em off) and I then GR home...

now which part of that gives the point that we can either
-use range to our advantage and win
-take shots in the gut
-use our ubah tradeskilling powers to get out of this
-fight

bloody hell we're a paper bag soaked in bloody cerosine! 1 shot and we're pretty much ripped appart and lit up. thats all it takes. now i admit spies can run from a fight bloody well. BUT WE DONT WANT THAT! we wanna be able to pop some dudes. not scratch em where they get healed up in a second. was pure luck there was a WB there...otherwise i was pretty screwed.

now i can think of some ways to help us.
that is to give us a PA which could REDUCE our hitbox so assasination suits can assasinate.
Give us gadgets to uncloak stealthers.
Boost the power of our guns so we can pop off 1/3 of a tank with a burst/single fire bullet.
give us new guns like that neutron rumour/an m16 (i've seen the piccies on MB...i'm pretty sur not all of MB are meatheads) or even pipebombs/trip mines/satchel charges etc.
Allow us to shoot while stealthed the higher the stealth tech. (say at 1 you can punch which you can. at 2 you can use a gun but it decloaks you for 3 secs when you fire it. at stealth 3 you can fire a gun but only your hitbox is revealed. so you can still be invisible to the naked/RPOS enhanced eye.

might be asking for much but this is a PvP game and we suck at that plain and simple

kurai
02-08-03, 20:59
@ Trip: Gotta say - I don't really agree with many of your points.

Spies have good offence already - it really doesn't need boosting any more as this would overpower us too far in the other direction. There is no real justification fo having even higher offence, without weakening defence even further.
This puts us into APU territory - they already have that niche covered. We would need a PPU constantly on our ass as they do.

I really think a slight boost in defence is all that's neccessary to round out the class. I don't want to encroach on tank (or yes - even PE) defensive territory. As things stand we dont even have armour as good as an APU (the Rad suit being the sole exception) and have 25 less CON points to allocate.

Slotting our defence in somewhere between APU & PE would seem to be a natural fit, and seems to have been the original plan.
But somewhere along the line around end of beta/start of retail the lower level speciality armours were taken away from us, and the situation has been left unbalanced and unaddressed ever since.

@ Rade: Fair enough - drugs neccessary. That's why I was so adamant your setup couldn't work - it was just impossible with the current mechanics of the game without them.

I still dont really see how you can stand by the statement that Spy defence > PE though :D

On a personal note I don't find drugs a useable day to day solution. Only really useful to me in very short engagements, or in controlled duel type situations. The downsides are just too great to be practical.

The same goes for other "knife edge" setups that need drugs, like Offensive Obliterator Spy, Shelter Spy, Tradeskiller OP Combat Spy, Disruptor/First Love RoF Cap Spy etc.

*Yes* - they are possible - *no*- they are not long term viable.

It's the nature of points based skills systems - you can create some truly surprising and/or bizarre setups.
Doesn't mean they are *useful*, however.

Rade
02-08-03, 21:04
Hm. I have to disagree with you there, I think setups using one drug is long term viable, Its not hard to maintain at all. Imo it goes haywire when you rely on 2-3 drugs, thats when it becomes too easy to make a mistake.



Im still waiting for people to come to the test server and fight my spy. So far it hasnt been beaten.

Promethius
02-08-03, 23:30
Originally posted by Sleawer
Sorry Prom, but apu's dont need ppu's to be viable, and definetly I want to go out of my appt without a ppu strapped to my ass. I cap dmg in FA and HL without a ppu, and if I get a frame of DS, surely I will be able to have around 320 mana.

And FYI, in the character creatiion I DO NOT have a ppu asigned to my apu, so maybe you should stop complaining about having a ppu in your arse all the time, and really work in what you have. Because seems you know very little of apu monks, or even of monks.

Remember I have been a monk at least the same time you have been a tank, and your tank was a babe when I was already capped. That should mean I know something about monks, shouldnt it?

lol for one thing chill. 2nd when i was refering to apus not being viable without a ppu i was refering to there dmg they are able to take. I mean honestly one apu vs one tank. The tank can tear through the apu. (of course i understand if the apu gets the tank quick enough ....so in a way its a pretty even fight) but if a apu has a ppu...it changes everything. AS we all kno.

btw where in my last post was i 'complaining' about having ppus. it was a suggestion. btw when u say u cap ur HL and FA u have 648% right? Cuz when i had my apu i reached about 540% with a pool of 290....with a DS in. So with u capping ur spells and having a decent pool some wat puzzles me.

And your last post seemed a waste of time. All you did was insult me and brag.

Sleawer
02-08-03, 23:49
Originally posted by Promethius

lol for one thing chill. 2nd when i was refering to apus not being viable without a ppu i was refering to there dmg they are able to take. I mean honestly one apu vs one tank. The tank can tear through the apu. (of course i understand if the apu gets the tank quick enough ....so in a way its a pretty even fight) but if a apu has a ppu...it changes everything. AS we all kno.

btw where in my last post was i 'complaining' about having ppus. it was a suggestion. btw when u say u cap ur HL and FA u have 648% right? Cuz when i had my apu i reached about 540% with a pool of 290....with a DS in. So with u capping ur spells and having a decent pool some wat puzzles me.

And your last post seemed a waste of time. All you did was insult me and brag.

I know what you meant with apu's being dependant of ppu's, and that only depends of each one playstyle. In an OP war I need a ppu yes, but just as any other class. In my gameplay I'm used to be solo, and I do it pretty well. If I surprise my opponent(s) before they notice I'm there, then they can raise a prayer, because someone will die.

I said 648% with PA 3 yes, with 189 apu you can cap HL and FA, and having enought mana pool to use all apu spells (almost depleted if you cast holy antibuff). Having a DS with 188 apu would be enought due the boost in ppw (lomming apu and mst). I'm wont be the first apu with spells capped and mana 300+. I cant tell you how much psi pool exactly I would have, because I need the damn frame.

The last paragraph is not an insult, I usually do not insult the people I know. I was totally serious, you pointed me complaining about my class, me a person who was a monk since my very first day in the game, a person who from hybrid turned into apu when almost no one wanted to be apu, what I complain..? I know perfectly how to play my class. To quote you "work with what you got and stop complaining"; this to me is like an insult, and you should know that, I have been working with what my monk has since the first day.
Saying I was capped before you is not an insult, and saying I have been wandering as monk the same time as you with your tank neither is an insult. You should take it as a praise, is just a way to telling you that if you know well how to play your tank, then I should know how play my monk aswell.

Promethius
03-08-03, 00:00
Originally posted by Sleawer
I know what you meant with apu's being dependant of ppu's, and that only depends of each one playstyle. In an OP war I need a ppu yes, but just as any other class. In my gameplay I'm used to be solo, and I do it pretty well. If I surprise my opponent(s) before they notice I'm there, then they can raise a prayer, because someone will die.

I said 648% with PA 3 yes, with 189 apu you can cap HL and FA, and having enought mana pool to use all apu spells (almost depleted if you cast holy antibuff). Having a DS with 188 apu would be enought due the boost in ppw (lomming apu and mst). I'm wont be the first apu with spells capped and mana 300+. I cant tell you how much psi pool exactly I would have, because I need the damn frame.

The last paragraph is not an insult, I usually do not insult the people I know. I was totally serious, you pointed me complaining about my class, me a person who was a monk since my very first day in the game, a person who from hybrid turned into apu when almost no one wanted to be apu, what I complain..? I know perfectly how to play my class. To quote you "work with what you got and stop complaining"; this to me is like an insult, and you should know that, I have been working with what my monk has since the first day.
Saying I was capped before you is not an insult, and saying I have been wandering as monk the same time as you with your tank neither is an insult. You should take it as a praise, is just a way to telling you that if you know well how to play your tank, then I should know how play my monk aswell.

Forgive me about the capping spells. I haven't played since the Monk PA came out and i didn't take that into effect (btw hows it workin ^^). Although i had my apu for a short time i kno exactly wat u mean about surprising ur enemy. Although our defense is quite weak if we sneak up on ya ur fux0red ;) . But again when i was saying viable i am more leaning to combat without the element of surprise. not necessarily refering to an OP war but kind of like a PP raid. Where you have the one group of enemys sittin there and ur in P3 going in. But either way i didn't mean apus are USELESS without a ppu....its kinda like a tank takin off their armor. Plus buffs are o so nice =P.

Sleawer
03-08-03, 00:18
The PA is damn good for apu's, if you play with a ppu, with it you can setup yourself to have a lot of mana (probably capped), and still cap the spells with psi 3; and if you play solo it allows you to cap spells and still have a nice bonus in mana due lomming. As apu, if I get hit, I will die fast whatever I do, so I got a better use for those extra fire/x-ray resists of the PA. :p

About psi pool, I did some maths and I dont think I get 320 :( I exaggerated there, it will be between 295-300 with both FA/HL capped.

ps: nothing to forgive man, to me you are one of the three best skilled players in Saturn, so you know what you talk.

Promethius
03-08-03, 00:33
I can't wait to test the shiny PA 3 for ppus. capped group buffs. phear me in OP battles ^^. Though thats one big reason

kurai
04-08-03, 01:17
[ I have added this post here too, as the argument sort of drifted across a couple of threads, and not everyone may be reading both]

Oooo Kay ...

Time for me to eat crow.

I owe Rade a public apology.

I made an Inq 1/Radsuit/Energy belt Spy.
(With SF/SA/Moveon/Bez2/RifleEye3/Reflex4 + X-Strong).

With this (assuming 75/75 ATL/AGL & reasonable HLT) I got to 170-ish RC & WEP (TC @ 87), and had enough INT left over for a 95-ish tradeskill. (using self buffs - Rifle1/Spy1/Resist 2).
This gives you perfectly respectable gun stats on anything up to a Silent Hunter.
Stealth II (TC 95) pushed it a little far, dropping RC below the "accelerator" point - anything beyond about Ray of God level took a severe hit in effectiveness.
However - high end pistols would be much less affected.
Not being a pistolero afficionado I didn't go further with that, but others may be pleasantly suprised.


I then built a Rifle PE, and started experimenting...
I didn't go too far with this, because I could see fairly early where it was heading (I also admit I am no expert on PE setups, so there are surely subtleties I missed) so I didn't go the "knife edge + 1 drug" route.
There may be a Vet/Kramer type uber resist setup in there somewhere, but I didn't have the time/experience to find it/try it, so I can't use it as an argument.

It all boiled down, in the end, to PE PSI and Spy Rad Suit being the deciding factors. The PE CON claws back a fair proportion if the difference, but by no means all - it's the shelter that takes it past.
The PE still has the edge, but by a margin massively less than I expected.

In conclusion - the Inq 1 spy setup would be *excellent* for pistoleros, borderline, but still acceptable for high end rifling, and still stealthable.

In staged battle type scenarios with Monk cast buffs, the spy does, indeed, have the edge.

Summary: Rade right, me wrong.

I'll shut up now :o

Lecko
04-08-03, 15:06
Well, I saw the power of ppu's in an OP war yesterday (what was going on on saturn?!?!?). We kept losing as we had only 1 ppu (who was the last to die). Then we got two and won, peasy.

I did feel a little helpless in the fight in some respect, but i guess it's all about being a group and needing all different types. If I thought PPU's were so good, I'd create one and stop bitching. But I don't wanna, so I takes me chances. Just gotta find that good (unexpected) setup...

Carinth
04-08-03, 18:21
Originally posted by Promethius
I can't wait to test the shiny PA 3 for ppus. capped group buffs. phear me in OP battles ^^. Though thats one big reason

All Tanks, please note, shoot Promethius with your TGC/SpeedGat. If you don't adjust your imp setup to take the huge piercing/force loss into account, then you're leaving yourself hugely vulnerable. If you don't care about your defenses, then yes the ppu3 gives a nice ppu bonus. If however you do care about your defenses, then it gives crap. Pop out a defensiv2 and put in a pp resistor. You improve your defenses to make up for the pierce/force. You also lose 10 psu/10ppu, which negates most of the ppu bonus from armor. So I get a wopping +3ppu, yay!

Sleawer
04-08-03, 18:24
He's apu monk Carinth, and to be honest, I see a greater benefit in the damage wearing an attack 2 rather than a fricking resistor chip... for apu monks.

ah my mistake, this time he was talking about his ppu.

what about ppu's using PA2 and a moveon instead the defensive processor or resistor chip?

moveon gives some force and transport to lom into force, str bonus to wear advanced foot and +3 cons +18 body health are a good addition for that piercing loss.. and with the PA you no longer need to drug to use holy cath sanctum.

Carinth
04-08-03, 18:41
pp resistor gives +15 force res, moveon gives +8 force +6 tra. In Con it gives me +45 points accross fire/energy/xray which I can shuffel around. So the Resistor gives me more points to play with, the +3con/str isn't worth it at all. adv foot is like +1agil over the basic im using, barely any better. Being able to use Holy Cath Sanctum without drugs is the only reason to use the PA, and you only need ppu pa2 for that. I use 3 just cause I like how it looks and the +3ppu helps rof a lil bit to make up for the 10 psu loss.

Sleawer
05-08-03, 01:52
Maybe if they add ppw to the reqs you would look at it with different eyes ;)