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*ph33r*
31-07-03, 23:47
Ok started a new thread because of the 'biased' poll options, and the general spam in the old thread, so...

Should PEs be given their own set of PA?

Discuss. :angel:

VashTheSoldier
31-07-03, 23:49
Who belive PE'S deserve PA Of there own, all the other class either HAVE/WILL HAVE PA

i think it makes PE's look rather bad in my opnion

there should be atleast 2 PA for pe's

perhaps class restricted?

or like ph33r and Dade

2 sets of PA, with different restrictions for both pistol and rifle PEs

E.g

Rifle PA Suit one

Reqs: 60 INT, 60 STR, 80 DEX, 105 RC

Pistol PA Suit one

Reqs: 60 INT, 60 STR, 80 DEX, 105 PSTL

enablerbr
31-07-03, 23:51
oh and what stats would you boost with PE PA. Psi,dex,int,str,con?

Marx
31-07-03, 23:52
No.

They're a JOAT and as such need more stat love rather than armor love.

With a stat increase and more clothes - PE's would be teh' pwn.


Originally posted by Marx
Forget PE PA.

either +5 to all stats

or more lines of clothing.

PE's are none specialists. and in actuality, if they choose to go along the Dex or Str specialty, they can wear PA. Whether or not it will be worth it is a different question.

:p

QuantumDelta
31-07-03, 23:52
Originally posted by Marx
No.

They're a JOAT and as such need more stat love rather than armor love.

With a stat increase and more clothes - PE's would be teh' pwn.
Agreed.

VashTheSoldier
31-07-03, 23:53
Originally posted by enablerbr
oh and what stats would you boost with PE PA. Psi,dex,int,str,con?

well since PE's need DEX more then ever,

perhaps Pistol pa adds

eh random number 30ish to pistol and 3 to dex?

rifle pa 30 to rifle 3 to dex?

ZoneVortex
31-07-03, 23:53
Yeah, no PA for PEs. Play a non-JOAT if you want PA.

Xian
31-07-03, 23:54
Maybe a set of PA's that boost +1/2/3/4/5 of either DEX, INT, CON or STR?

Marx
31-07-03, 23:54
So you'd like to punish the ever so rare melee/heavy weapons PE?

Or the apu PE?

VashTheSoldier
31-07-03, 23:55
Originally posted by Marx
So you'd like to punish the ever so rare melee/heavy weapons PE?

Or the apu PE?

thats a one pe in a million, most pes major in RIFLE , and PISTOL, besides im just throwing a idea.

ZoneVortex
31-07-03, 23:56
Wow I almost forgot....PEs have as much PA as they need in the form of the CA epic item ;)

and what about the occasional droner PE?

Marx
31-07-03, 23:57
Well so am I.

:p

If you want to look cool in a PA, pop in STR imps and drug yourself - or wait until the assasination suits come out, because I've no doubt there'll be a 95 dex one.

If you're really hurting, you can draw a picture and tape it on your monitor - though it'd hamper your ability to play a bit.

EDIT - OMG! Forgot about the droner PE!

VashTheSoldier
31-07-03, 23:57
Originally posted by ZoneVortex
Wow I almost forgot....PEs have as much PA as they need in the form of the CA epic item ;)

too bad not everyone is CA.

ZoneVortex
31-07-03, 23:58
Originally posted by VashTheSoldier
too bad not everyone is CA.

Yup. Too bad ;)

Marx
31-07-03, 23:59
Originally posted by VashTheSoldier
too bad not everyone is CA.

can't have your cake and eat it too

:(

EDIT-

You know what? You can get two types of PE PA as soon as a Melee tank PA comes out. Can't be a hypocrit.

:p

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:01
About the stat increase... the PE PA could give those stat increases instead of giving resists... so like when you chuck the PA on your given +5 dex, +5 int blah blah blah and depending on which suit your wearing you would get a small boost to rifles, pistols etc.

oh and Marx that's great :rolleyes:

Marx
01-08-03, 00:02
Tell me how that would work.

PA always has to have a negetive side.

what would it take away from if it adds +5 to everything?

nonamebrandeggs
01-08-03, 00:02
If PEs get PA I better fuckin be able to use it with drugs.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:05
Originally posted by Marx
Tell me how that would work.

PA always has to have a negetive side.

what would it take away from if it adds +5 to everything?

Hey I know! If say your wearing the rifle PA it could give -255 pistol combat! NERF THE PE HYBRIDS! Yey!

:rolleyes: :D

Mattimeo
01-08-03, 00:05
I'd like to see some PE PAs. being a "JOAT" immediatly penalizes us from having one?

Breschau
01-08-03, 00:05
What does JOAT have to do with power armour?

The point of power armour is to turn the ordinary into the super. To augment some or all of: speed, strength, resilience, accuracy, without actually changing the person themselves (ie, not using implants, drugs, etc etc).

Now Neocron has to have reqs in it, since it's potentially acquirable by a 0/2 newbie, but I don't see why the PE class shouldn't have a suit with reqs tailored to their high end runners.

MortuusLupus
01-08-03, 00:07
I'd like power armor for a PE, but if I can squeeze into one or both of the lowest level Spy PAs (and they're halfway decent) I'll be happy.

Arcadius
01-08-03, 00:10
Originally posted by Arcadius
Pes have to get PA now. You can't leave them without PA and give pa to the other 3 classes, that would be cruel.




Normally I don't like PEs mooching off other classes or getting special items, but the fact that they are a JOAT is teh perfect RP reason to use a suit that uhh utilizes all stats as a focus of power, or something like that. In other words the power armor will require an expert(not "master" or high stat) in all fields to wield the armor. Perfect justification for a JOAT to get PA.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:11
Cheers Arc :D

Marx
01-08-03, 00:13
Originally posted by Mattimeo
I'd like to see some PE PAs. being a "JOAT" immediatly penalizes us from having one?

Fine, if you would rather look cool than get crucial stat changes - may I refer you to the coming Dex PA. coming in the same increments as normal tank PA.

So PE's would be able to wear the first spy PA with ease.

if you don't like that, you can wear the CA PA.

Anyway, this is a poll and opinion post. Just because people don't like my opinions, and those of people with whom I have a like mind, doesn't mean our opinions will change.

:p

edit - and lemme reiterate the neccesity for melee tank PA, full spy droner PA, etc etc. Because it wouldn't be fair to let these class sub-types to go unarmored.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:15
Originally posted by Marx
Fine, if you would rather look cool than get crucial stat changes - may I refer you to the coming Dex PA. coming in the same increments as normal tank PA.

So PE's would be able to wear the first spy PA with ease.

if you don't like that, you can wear the CA PA.

Anyway, this is a poll and opinion post. Just because people don't like my opinions, and those of people with whom I have a like mind, doesn't mean our opinions will change.

:p

Out of personal interest- what class do _you_ actively play?

Marx
01-08-03, 00:16
Full Melee tank - rifle PE - and I'm in the process of making a full tradeskill spy. All on Pluto because I've access to three accounts.

Flea
01-08-03, 00:17
USE RESTRICTIONS: CLASS: PRIVATE EYE



simple as that people

VashTheSoldier
01-08-03, 00:19
Originally posted by Flea
USE RESTRICTIONS: CLASS: PRIVATE EYE



simple as that people

noobs can use it too?

advanced then how simple u state it..

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:21
Originally posted by Flea
USE RESTRICTIONS: CLASS: PRIVATE EYE



simple as that people

All other PAs have been reliant on player skills- skills which each particular class specialise in, keeping it available to the target class... with a PE this is difficult because the PE doesn't really specialise in a main skill, being the supposed 'JOAT' and all, so if this is possible it could be a pretty good solution to the PE PA requirement problem.

edit- The newb wearing the PA problem could be fixed with only allowing say... PEs over rank 50 to wear the PA.

MortuusLupus
01-08-03, 00:24
If one of the stat req's is psi, then the PEs would be able to use it without having a class based restriction.

Like PA1 would be 25 Psi, 30 for 2, 35 for 3, and then for folks who wanted 4, they could drug or something up to 40.


There could be an Int/Psi one that gave hacking or imp or something and some Psi stuff (Mental Focus Power Armor, sort of a combo of spy booster and mebbe low level protection spell), a Dex/Psi that gave weapon bonuses and psi (Reflex Tuning Power Armor, like a combination of rifle/pistol booster and a low level protection), or a Str and Psi to give force resist and psi armor (Enhanced Elemental Resistance Power Armor, like a combination high defense armor, and mid to high level protection spells, but a small speed penalty).


Just some ideas.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:26
Problem with making the PA Psi based- we'd have newbie psi monks wearing the suit.

Good ideas though Mortuus I like em :p

Breschau
01-08-03, 00:27
This is just off the top of my head, not really thought about it, but for reqs how about something like:

Level 1: Int 57, Str 57, Dex 80
Level 2: Int 60, Str 60, Dex 95
Level 3: Int 63, Str 63, Dex 110
Level 4: Int 66, Str 66, Dex 125


That would let an unenhanced (drugs, implants) PE near max use level 1 - roughly as close to their max as the 'specialist' chars need to be for their basic PA. Then with implants you would be able to wear the level 2. Drugs wouldn't actually be quite enough to use the level 3, and wouldn't be close to level 4. Which'd actually be slightly stricter than other classes' use restrictions (I believe tanks can currently squeeze into their level 3 armour if they are willing to drug a lot) (edit: though the stricter on the higher levels would compensate for it being a bit easier for a PE to reach their caps).

It'd need looked at - what's available for drugs/implants at present and what is planned for DoY (there's been vague hints regarding stats and caps). But a combination of those three stats would strike me as the most likely way to go - keep the basic one usable without implants, the second one require imps, the third require heavy drugging and the fourth be inaccessible at present.

MortuusLupus
01-08-03, 00:28
Not toally Psi based, though. Like, 65 Dex, 20 Psi, something like that, so monks couldn't get into em without big gimpage or drugging.


EDIT: Storyline stuff could fit it in well. It *was* after all, the Private Eyes who conquered the monks in the first place when they took over the city. A group monks could have fled the city to join up with TG and work on creating a new armor to fight back. 70 some years later, due to limited budget and equipment, the TG forces make a breakthrough after stealing that load of Spy PA's being shipped to the city. TG goes on a raid somewhere and one wearer of the new armor is taken alive, Tangent's scientists, with the help of their own monks, reverse engineer the suit, make a few modifications, and begin manufacturing and distributing the armor throughout the city.

Jest
01-08-03, 00:33
I could care less about PE PA as well. We don't really need it at this point. And giving PEs something they don't need will only make it more likely that they end up getting the shaft when they end up needing something. Trust me on this one guys, I've played a PE long enough to know that giving them PA would be a bad idea in the long term. I am pro-PE, which is why I am anti-PA for them. I think Marx and QD are thinking along the same lines I am and they are both PEs too.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:34
Originally posted by MortuusLupus
EDIT: Storyline stuff could fit it in well. It *was* after all, the Private Eyes who conquered the monks in the first place when they took over the city. A group monks could have fled the city to join up with TG and work on creating a new armor to fight back. 70 some years later, due to limited budget and equipment, the TG forces make a breakthrough after stealing that load of Spy PA's being shipped to the city. TG goes on a raid somewhere and one wearer of the new armor is taken alive, Tangent's scientists, with the help of their own monks, reverse engineer the suit, make a few modifications, and begin manufacturing and distributing the armor throughout the city.

That sounds excellent- adding PA to the last remaining PA-less class, and adding to the storyline! Get Callash in here! ;)

Marx
01-08-03, 00:34
(cheers at Jest)

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:35
Oh well atleast you anti PE PA guys are keeping the thread bumped- thanks! :D

Cyphor
01-08-03, 00:35
a pe should be able to easily use the first spy pa if the trend from the psi and tank pa is cont as it should be in a rng of 85-95 dex. They should be able to drug to 2 and poss even make it stay in once drugged, this should be enough as they are jack of all trades.

Jest
01-08-03, 00:37
Originally posted by *ph33r*
Oh well atleast you anti PE PA guys are keeping the thread bumped- thanks! :D VOTE NO ON PRIVATE EYE POWER ARMOR DAMNIT, I WILL CONTINUE TO POST IN ALL CAPS TILL THE NO'S GO HIGHER THAN THE YES'.

Marx
01-08-03, 00:38
Originally posted by Cyphor
a pe should be able to easily use the first spy pa if the trend from the psi and tank pa is cont as it should be in a rng of 85-95 dex. They should be able to drug to 2 and poss even make it stay in once drugged, this should be enough as they are jack of all trades.

(cheers at Cyphor)

MortuusLupus
01-08-03, 00:39
The thing about being a jack of all trades is just this:

We can't. Not in this game where specialization is the absolute prime requisite. You can't PvP if you're not super specialized. You can't do much construction, or researching. Without specialization you can:

Drive, clone ammo, hack (kinda, you do need to specialize a tad bit here), implant (same here for MC5 chips), and maybe, just MAYBE, repair. That's really not that much fun, though, and you miss out on a very large portion of the game that way.

If being a JOAT was possible, then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately game mechanics rule it out almost completely.

Marx
01-08-03, 00:41
This is why we say cheer for the +5 stat instead of the PE PA, as jest said, hoping for the wrong things only brings heartbreak.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:41
Originally posted by MortuusLupus
The thing about being a jack of all trades is just this:

We can't. Not in this game where specialization is the absolute prime requisite. You can't PvP if you're not super specialized. You can't do much construction, or researching. Without specialization you can:

Drive, clone ammo, hack (kinda, you do need to specialize a tad bit here), implant (same here for MC5 chips), and maybe, just MAYBE, repair. That's really not that much fun, though, and you miss out on a very large portion of the game that way.

If being a JOAT was possible, then I'd be all for it. Unfortunately game mechanics rule it out almost completely.

Amen to that. You can't become a JOAT without severely gimping yourself- specialization has become everything now.

Dade Murphey
01-08-03, 00:46
Mortuus is absolutely right here...being a true JoaT's was taken aways sometime in beta 4...now it's either combat oriented or Tradeskill oriented...so quit throwing this JoaT shit around like you're some kinda evangelist on sunday morning...my last PE was spec'd entirely rifles with a bit of imping on the side...didn't really leave me any room for anything else when all was said and done...hell...being a rifle spy now doesn't leave me room for anything else now either...the theory of JoaT's is nice...but not realistic...so let's drop that shit and think along the lines of reality...if you're gonna give everyone else a PA...it's only fair that PE's get one too...in all honesty PPU sure as hell don't need PA...they could be butt-ass nekked and still take no dmg

Marx
01-08-03, 00:47
Its only fair that melee tanks get a PA too - but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

:rolleyes:

Breschau
01-08-03, 00:47
Exactly. PE's aren't JOATs. Or if they are, it's only a tiny minority of them that are. They draw on all their stats more equally than others, but they *still* specialise. Hell they specialise almost as much as any other class. I know my PE has a good 170 or so in both weapon lore and r-c (admittably a lot from implants, but it's still not that far off other classes, eg spies, points in their skill of choice).

Neocron is designed to punish JOATs.

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:48
Originally posted by Marx
Its only fair that melee tanks get a PA too - but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

:rolleyes:

You have PA- the grey and blue powersuits.

Thank you come again. :rolleyes:

Dade Murphey
01-08-03, 00:49
marx is right too...unfortunately KK hates melee almost as much as they hate non-tc rifles and as much if not more than they hate PE's...

SorkZmok
01-08-03, 00:54
OMG, look what Magni just wrote in the German Forum:
(Lead German Forum Moderator btw)

Originally posted by Magni
Keine Angst ihr armen PEs, ihr seid nicht vergessen worden. Ihr bekommt auch noch eine.... *beruhig*

Translation:
"Calm down all you PEs, you won`t be forgotten. There will be a PA for you...."

*ph33r*
01-08-03, 00:55
w00t SorkZmok :eek:

Can we get a link to this thread please? :p

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 00:55
We got told that months ago :p

Dade Murphey
01-08-03, 00:56
well they did say that once doy hits everyone will have PA...and we're still waiting on doy right...Right??

Breschau
01-08-03, 00:56
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
We got told that months ago :p

We got told many many things in the months gone by. Folks like to be reassured regularly in case KK, in their infinite wisdom, have changed their infinite wisdom without telling us :p

SorkZmok
01-08-03, 00:59
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
We got told that months ago :p

Didn`t know that :o

Man, thats gonna be one damn hard thing to balance then i bet....

Rade
01-08-03, 01:03
When the spy PA comes out for real therell probably be just like all other PAs, ie reqs dex 95,115,135,155. The lowest level one is definately in reach for the PE.

I do however think there should be lots of equipment, armor and STUFF that requires more than one trait to wear, IE dex/str etc etc, so that the diversity a PE has actually comes to use. Because now all equipment are based on one stat and therefore the only "good" thing is have one stat mad high, having several stats at lower levels just doesnt pay off as good.

RuButt
01-08-03, 01:07
yaarr, PE PA!!

Hidden Godoffej
01-08-03, 01:11
This may have already been suggested, but...

Why not just give PEs dual wield for small-arms? It makes more sense than having "all-around" power armor. And Pistol PEs need lovin' anyway ;)

VashTheSoldier
01-08-03, 01:13
Originally posted by Lethys
Here's 2 ideas I've come up with:

[Insert Name Here] Armor
Req: 60 STR, 85/90 DEX (Not sure which is best)
Bonus: +3 STR, +3 DEX
+25 Xray, Energy, Poison, Fire, +10 P-C, R-C
Negatives: -2 INT, -2 PSI
-15 Construct, Research, Barter, PSI use, Hacking

[Insert Name Here] Armor
Req: 35 PSI, 60 INT, 70 DEX (To stop monks from wearing it)
Bonus: +3 PSI, +3 INT
+20 Psi Use, +10 PPU, PPW, Hacking
Negatives: -2 STR, -2 DEX
-15 M-C, H-C, Force


and Hidden, ur gonna make the rifle pes mad! RUN!! RUUUN!! and yes it was shot out there.

Breschau
01-08-03, 01:15
Originally posted by Rade
I do however think there should be lots of equipment, armor and STUFF that requires more than one trait to wear, IE dex/str etc etc, so that the diversity a PE has actually comes to use. Because now all equipment are based on one stat and therefore the only "good" thing is have one stat mad high, having several stats at lower levels just doesnt pay off as good.

Ooh! Rifle-Cannon hybrids that use str+dex! That'd be wielded like miniguns are.

Ok, so I haven't thought at all about the mechanics of how it'd work, I just much prefer the look of someone using a minigun (or similar - that smart-gun with the frame/harness that Vasquez uses in Aliens) over shoulder mounted guns.

But that aside, I agree. Currently all equipment is focused towards specialising in one stat (and skill), usually. Be nice to see some multi-stat items, to create a more varied range of setups.

Jest
01-08-03, 01:33
People the last thing Private Eyes need right now is Power Armor. Giving us PA will just divert attention off of the true imbalances. Seriously. Do you people who vote yes actually think that PA will give us the edge? It will not. My armor is not what holds me back from winning against other classes. I don't die and think to myself, gee its not fair that other classes have PA and I don't, if only I had some Pa then maybe I could win.

I agree with you that PEs being equated as JoaT is bull shit. We are not Jack of all Trades. We choose one thing or the other. It's the curse of specialization. I agree with Rade that it would be nice to see some items that used more than one stat, but imo this is a totally seperate issue from Power Armor.

Just look at the monks. They nerfed the hell out of them (arguably) and every one bitched and bitched and bitched. Please, by all means, find me a single monk bitching about the patch that happened just this week. You won't. Know why? Because good or bad, the new topic of conversation is the Monk PA.

Private Eye PA will do exactly the same thing. It will take the focus off what REALLY needs to be addressed about the PE class, and we will all come to the forums saying how much we love it. THEN, if we bring up any character imbalances that still exist, we will get this exact response.

"Wtf you get new Power Armor and you are still bitching? You PEs will never be happy. You can't accept your role."

If PE PA gets released as the next thing with nothing else done to the PE class, I will wait till some one says the exact thing above, and then I will post a link to this very thread. PLEASE my fellow PEs, DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT HAVING POWER ARMOR. Screw PA. We need other things right now.

Erikin
01-08-03, 01:48
if wussy monks can have pa..... then Pe's should have PA make it look really badass you look 80 feet tall u can shoot fireballs and have apikes all over then when you kill a pe wereaking it you can say i killed diable and move to nightmare mode

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 01:52
Originally posted by Jest
People the last thing Private Eyes need right now is Power Armor. Giving us PA will just divert attention off of the true imbalances. Seriously. Do you people who vote yes actually think that PA will give us the edge? It will not. My armor is not what holds me back from winning against other classes. I don't die and think to myself, gee its not fair that other classes have PA and I don't, if only I had some Pa then maybe I could win.

I agree with you that PEs being equated as JoaT is bull shit. We are not Jack of all Trades. We choose one thing or the other. It's the curse of specialization. I agree with Rade that it would be nice to see some items that used more than one stat, but imo this is a totally seperate issue from Power Armor.

Just look at the monks. They nerfed the hell out of them (arguably) and every one bitched and bitched and bitched. Please, by all means, find me a single monk bitching about the patch that happened just this week. You won't. Know why? Because good or bad, the new topic of conversation is the Monk PA.

Private Eye PA will do exactly the same thing. It will take the focus off what REALLY needs to be addressed about the PE class, and we will all come to the forums saying how much we love it. THEN, if we bring up any character imbalances that still exist, we will get this exact response.

"Wtf you get new Power Armor and you are still bitching? You PEs will never be happy. You can't accept your role."

If PE PA gets released as the next thing with nothing else done to the PE class, I will wait till some one says the exact thing above, and then I will post a link to this very thread. PLEASE my fellow PEs, DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT HAVING POWER ARMOR. Screw PA. We need other things right now.

Well posted.
I'm 100% with this...
Posted to emphasise....

DonnyJepp
01-08-03, 01:55
Originally posted by Jest
People the last thing Private Eyes need right now is Power Armor. Giving us PA will just divert attention off of the true imbalances...

Private Eye PA will do exactly the same thing. It will take the focus off what REALLY needs to be addressed about the PE class, and we will all come to the forums saying how much we love it....

We need other things right now.


Forgive me for selectively quoting you Jest however I think I captured your point. But you are too subtle for me. If not PA what is it we need? Rare 12-guage streetsweepers? A few alternative varieties of implants?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that somebody paid $48 for an SA chip on Ebay yesterday. I don't have a goddamn SA chip but some chump with the cash sure does. I'm sure thinking about LoMming my melee tank to heavy just for MC5 which is just plain wrong for me to have to do.

I don't see too many imbalances with the PE. Granted it is a bitch to spec implants for the class, I'd wager that we have the most sensitive implant setups around. Knock 1 thing out (except my backbone) and everything good about my rig is out of whack. I don't even care about tech weapons, I'm a low-tech rifleman on my primary. I'm going to post my setup once I get back home (travelling for work) and see if QD or you have any ideas.


So, that being said, what do you pros want for your PEs if not PA? Don't beat around the bush because I want specifics not "well we need balance fixes."

DJ
/withholds his vote due to indecision



lol@Erikin ;)

Rade
01-08-03, 01:56
Originally posted by Jest
People the last thing Private Eyes need right now is Power Armor. Giving us PA will just divert attention off of the true imbalances. Seriously. Do you people who vote yes actually think that PA will give us the edge? It will not. My armor is not what holds me back from winning against other classes. I don't die and think to myself, gee its not fair that other classes have PA and I don't, if only I had some Pa then maybe I could win.

I agree with you that PEs being equated as JoaT is bull shit. We are not Jack of all Trades. We choose one thing or the other. It's the curse of specialization. I agree with Rade that it would be nice to see some items that used more than one stat, but imo this is a totally seperate issue from Power Armor.

Just look at the monks. They nerfed the hell out of them (arguably) and every one bitched and bitched and bitched. Please, by all means, find me a single monk bitching about the patch that happened just this week. You won't. Know why? Because good or bad, the new topic of conversation is the Monk PA.

Private Eye PA will do exactly the same thing. It will take the focus off what REALLY needs to be addressed about the PE class, and we will all come to the forums saying how much we love it. THEN, if we bring up any character imbalances that still exist, we will get this exact response.

"Wtf you get new Power Armor and you are still bitching? You PEs will never be happy. You can't accept your role."

If PE PA gets released as the next thing with nothing else done to the PE class, I will wait till some one says the exact thing above, and then I will post a link to this very thread. PLEASE my fellow PEs, DO NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT NOT HAVING POWER ARMOR. Screw PA. We need other things right now.

I have nothing to add. Except maybe a long whiny not what should be fixed. But I'll get on that later.

Arcadius
01-08-03, 02:02
I agree pistols need tweaking, liberator is overpowered.

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 02:02
Interesting.

How to balance the PE Class without overpowering it, or nerfing an extrenal class.....

Will require much thought.

Rade
01-08-03, 02:06
Originally posted by Arcadius
I agree pistols need tweaking, liberator is overpowered.

Go home you little munchkin. Btw I thought the implementation of the monk PA would leave you in vibrating in horizontal mode for a few days, and in turn cause a severe reduction in spam on these boards. Looks like i was wrong :p

Arcadius
01-08-03, 02:08
Originally posted by Rade
Go home you little munchkin. Btw I thought the implementation of the monk PA would leave you in vibrating in horizontal mode for a few days, and in turn cause a severe reduction in spam on these boards. Looks like i was wrong :p



I'm lomming. :D Bored. :D

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 02:13
Ya know, it's funny, but the only underpowered pistols remaining are the rare ones (outside RoLH) :/
Non-Rares are out performing their rare counterparts (excluding the TL 68 uzi which is crap for the same reason lib is...)

Rade
01-08-03, 02:15
Originally posted by Arcadius
I'm lomming. :D Bored. :D

Get back in the tub you fat bastard! I am Ahab!

Lexxuk
01-08-03, 03:18
PE's will get PA, but what do you give them? PE's can be good at any class because they have mid-high stats.

Int 60 base, with imp's, medium belts
Str 60 base, with imp's, low rare melee, or crap HC, can also gun jeep or tank with drugz
Con 65 base, ok resist settings possibly, only 35 con lower than a tank
Dex 80, Pistol's, Rifles, Drones, Repair, Vehicle Use, PE's can make good droners, good pistol users, good rifle users, can repair and drive
PSI 35 base, never be as good as a monk (cept a newb, but even new monks do more damage with APU, damn them - ok, this was when i wa a hybrid PE durin Exotic psi heh)

PE's can do lots, they can, with drugs, wear v.good armour have v.good resists, use v.good weaponry, and do a lotta stuff. When it comes out, it will have to gimp something a PE doesnt use much. Which I guess, would be the 3rd highest stat, which is int or str, and also hit other sub classes, like agility/athletics, so in the end, would it really be worth having the armour, if you have to over specialise?

Forget My Name
01-08-03, 03:22
Rhade, you been hitting the hashish haven't you?

PE's don't need P.A. Only gimp Tanks, Spies and Monks do.

I don't play a PE ( never had ) but is it me or is the PE just the most kick ass class out of the 4?

Jest
01-08-03, 03:22
Originally posted by DonnyJepp

I don't see too many imbalances with the PE. Granted it is a bitch to spec implants for the class, I'd wager that we have the most sensitive implant setups around. Knock 1 thing out (except my backbone) and everything good about my rig is out of whack.

So, that being said, what do you pros want for your PEs if not PA? Don't beat around the bush because I want specifics not "well we need balance fixes."

DJ
/withholds his vote due to indecision

lol@Erikin ;) Excellent question and points made. I will give you some specific examples of what I think is wrong with the PE class.

For one, and this relates to spies as well, rifles and pistols. There is just a ridiculous amount of imbalance within rifles/pistols themselves as well as compared to other classes weapons. As QD mentioned in his other thread here. (http://neocron2.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=70348) There is just no continuaity between the tl/reqs of a item and its usefuless/powerfulness. Consider some of the useless pistols out there. BoH and Wyatt Earp are paper weights. While I might enjoy using my Wyatt, I would never ever use it in a serious fight. Then you have the Judge. While not necessarily a horrible weapon, the Blacksun (a non-rare) does equal or more damage than the Judge. Then you have the Liberator. Reakktor has tried to balance this weapon, but any Libby fanatic knows that adding one or two points per shot is not going to matter. The Libby is a skill weapon. I can't even begin to tell you how hard it is yo hit a moving target, especially if they know how to fight against it. It simply needs an increase in burst %. I really like the increased clip, Im not complaining against it, but its simply not enough. And personally, Id like the RoLH have even higher damage as it is now, and perhaps even raised the reqs for it so that PEs would need more than just one drug to use it. I would like for my spy brothers to have something special that PEs don't.

Then lets take rifles. The Ray of God is simply the best rifle there is. Its tl 98. IMO there is reason to even try to use any other weapon unless you are a low tech PE and just want to use the Pain Easer.

Then we have the constant argument of peple telling us we are Jack or all Trades. I hate to break it to every one, but we are Jack of all Shit. While my skill points might be average Con/Str/Dex/Int/Psi, my skills are not. We can't even be average at more than one thing. If I chose a dex tradeskill for example then I might as well just set self_kill every time I get into a fight because I won't be winning it.

Also as you mentioned in your post, our setup is one of give and take. No other class is really like that. Every Dex point, every Int point, every Str point is exactly what I need it to be without taking away from the other skills. My example is a typical Gentank, do you really think they give a shit about the dex minuses when they put in Str implants? No. Why does this matter? Because it limits us in our setups. We can never take our PE characters to the next level be ause taking us to the next level in one area would drop us a level in another area.

PEs plain and simple are average. They are good at nothing and in reality are probably the third in list of the classes as far as JoaTness goes. Monks and spies are far more capable of being well rounded without gimping themsevles imo. Even a tank can do basically everything I can do except cast higher level psi stuff.

The PE is the lost child, he does not know his place and he is beggin for some classification. He wants to feel useful in the world but he doesn't know where he belongs.

Duder
01-08-03, 04:23
Originally posted by Marx
No.

They're a JOAT and as such need more stat love rather than armor love.

With a stat increase and more clothes - PE's would be teh' pwn.


+5 to all skills and more clothing. I mean, i want clothing, glasses and trenchcoats, oh and cloaks..


Oh and great post Jest. :(

MortuusLupus
01-08-03, 04:28
He needs a hug


C'mere, group hug :)

Duder
01-08-03, 04:32
Bleh, if PEs get crappy PA, im just going to lom my PC to repair.

I already got a tl 150 repair tool waiting to be used...

Jest
01-08-03, 06:24
Beside the other reasons I gave, I don't think we need PA just because we look cool enough as it is. :p It would be awesome if instead of giving us our own PA, if they instead gave us the option of having our own faction specific clothing. As in a TG PE would be able to have different clothing options than a TT PE. Make the PE the choice of those who play with style. Pistols, faction clothes, cool shades... oh yes. I bet PEs get a lot more 'play' from the ladies than the other classes. We Private Eyes may not have found our place in Neocron, but while you tanks are out fighting in battle we are sleeping with your wives. Chigga chigga ooooohhh yea.

MortuusLupus
01-08-03, 08:02
Dude, you've seen the Tank women. I'd rather be out getting missiles shot up my ass by warbots o_O

SigmaDraconis
01-08-03, 08:38
no..JOAT says it all....and QD u cant flame me for saying that this time because you already agreed with marx !!!

more clothes would be cool tho

Dribble Joy
01-08-03, 09:09
Hmmmmmmmmm.......

I agree that PEs need other things than PA right now, weapon balancing (especially the rare pistols) and things.

That siad, I am in favour of a PE PA.

What puzzels me is how it would work?

If it give DEX and PC/RC bonuses, what would it take away?
I use all of my stat lines to their fullest (more or less)
A STR drop would further gimp my armour, PSI would potentially rid me of my deflector, INT would rob me of my med energy belt.

When it comes out, (as stated previously) I hope it's a viable piece of equipement.
If you don't want to wear it fine, I might not if it doesn't give me what I need.
But in the meantime there are more pressing matters at hand.

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 11:08
What I don't agree with, Sigma, is how a lot of people with room temp IQs around here think JOAT = Not as good as the others.

So.....STFU Kthxbye......

CkVega
01-08-03, 11:17
Not read the whole thread yet so I'm not sure if it has been suggested already or not.

In other games I've played the JOAT class tended to have more overall stats than the more specialized classes (a bit like the red Mage in........ what the hell was that game called, you know... the one where thier was a white mage, a black mage and a red mage. The white mage had high level healing/white magic etc and the black mage had high level destructive magic and the red mage was a Hybrid of the 2, he couldn't get either skill upto the levels of a white or a black mage but had more overall stats?)

Prahaps if instead of PA the PE's stats were raised to:

70 int
70 str
65 Con
80 Dex
40 Psi
giving a total of 325 stat points.

Any comments?

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 11:31
65 INT
65 STR
65 CON
90 DEX
40 PSI. :)

Rade
01-08-03, 11:33
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
65 INT
65 STR
65 CON
90 DEX
40 PSI. :)

And lower the level 2 skill buffs to TL40 or so.

Original monk
01-08-03, 11:35
Go play a real class

CkVega
01-08-03, 11:36
@QD
Yeah, yours sounds better than the stats I suggested :) I would prefer the extra dex thinking about it.

@Rade
Hell yeah, atm there is no point in level 2 buffs (no self respecting PPU uses them for long if at all) if they were lowered to TL 40 and made usable by te PE, then being the second best Psi users might actually mean something.

QuantumDelta
01-08-03, 11:37
Originally posted by Original monk
Go play a real class

Like a n00b over powered tank class
or a nerfed to hell hybrid class?
or a weakass apu class?
or a "can't really kill" ppu class?
or a lame ass spy class?

....stfu :p


Hell.

INT 65
STR 65
CON 65
DEX 85
PSI 45

=)

CkVega
01-08-03, 11:39
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Like a n00b over powered tank class
or a nerfed to hell hybrid class?
or a weakass apu class?
or a "can't really kill" ppu class?
or a lame ass spy class?

....stfu :p

awe, don't be too hard on him, he's just never had the plesure of playing the "real" class which is supposed to represent the "real" people ;)

trigger hurt
01-08-03, 12:54
I vote no for 2 reasons.

First, every other PE in the city looks just like me. Go to rokkawear, change clothes. Ten minutes later, see some PE running by with the same clothes. Giving the PE a power armor will just make us look even more alike.

Second...the first thing I expected to see when I logged my char on today was 100 monks standing in plaza 1 sporting their new dresses. I was not disappointed. But it is still a distraction from the real issues floating over a pe's head.

What would I like to see? Some addition to our stats. Not something that will be stupid and make it easy for us to use the high level weapons, but something that gives us an extra bit of points to have a dex or int based tradeskill.

I don't like to buy ammo. I want to be able to loot junk from a mob and use it to make mine. I can stay out of the city longer that way. As the city bores me to death and I get this cramped feeling in there. Would be really handy if I could actually be a support character by cloning ammo for everyone instead of having to gimp myself to do it and to be able to fight effectivly. Read the handbook. We are supposed to be able to do this type of stuff in the field...KK knows that it's impossible to do without gimping yourself. Yet they choose to leave it as is. When they changed the req's on weapons, that's when the preverbial shit hit the preverbial fan.

New clothing options would be really nice. Of course, to be fair, they would have to be offered to all classes..but each class should be able to have a different look. Right now, monks and tanks are the only ones who have really different clothing. But not that much difference...since they all seem to use the same pattern, just change the form of it a bit.

Finally, give the pistolers a bit of a boost. I personally think rifles are fine as they are...but compared to pistols, they are far more advantageous. I've tried being a pistoler...it's a tough life. Unless you are really really good, 9 times out of 10, you will end up on your back, picking out a genrep. Still, I push on.

Duder
01-08-03, 15:17
Because JOATS suck,:rolleyes: +5 in all skills would be just what we need, and more clothing to hide our JOAT-iness.

There is no such thing as a JOAT in NC, stop reading the stupid PE description, its misleading....just look at the Spy discription as an example...:rolleyes:


Oh and this; JOATS SUCK, WE ARE JACK OF ALL TRADES, WE SHOULD NOT BE ABLE TO USE ANY GOOD GUNS OR WEAR ANYTHING HIGHER THEN A KEVLARVEST 1, BECAUSE WE CANT SPECIALIZE ANYTHING; EVEN THOUGH 99% OF THE PE POPULATION CONTINUES TO SPECIALIZE IN SOMETHING. LETS ALL NERF THE PE, BECAUSE THEY ARE SPECIALIZING IN RIFLES OR PISTOLS.

Selendor
01-08-03, 15:41
Some interesting comments. I personally don't like powerarmour at all We're only asking for it because the other classes are getting it. But to me it just means the character models are reduced to 4 from the potential 40 or so that we have at present. I'd rather have variety, like some have suggested, in clothing options.

In terms of the Private Eye needing a boost, its always hard to argue that on the forums when everyone will defend their favoured class. I will say however that I have mainly been nerfed in the 10 months I have played a Private Eye, mostly in knock-on PSI nerfs. To me the only real boost I have had is that luckily I am CA and so can wear the Copbot Armour.

Maybe I need to 'Get some skillz', but I do tend to die a lot for a capped character. Still, I want to try many more tactics and be in many more battles before I'm willing to say that I am underpowered. I'll bow to the knowledge of the more thorough (and vocal ;) ) posters in this thread on this matter.

Sel

KramerTheWeird
01-08-03, 15:48
NO!


I don't want some stupid clunky overskin on my PE. Not only that, PE's take everything from other classes, but not their high end.. therefore they shouldn't get high end armory such as PA.

greendonkeyuk
01-08-03, 16:36
id rather have a pimp suit for my pe thanks!

I wanna look stylish while im killin people, nothin more than that.

I fully agree with jests post apart from the part about spies being rounded. Im playing at the moment, all four chars, tank and spy are level 64 and 62 respectively. Monk is ppu (rank 49) and pe is rank 50. I love pes. Hes the last char i started but hes my favourite, from the avatar itself right through to the potential stylishness ive seen my mates play.

The spies, i think need an extra 10 strength points and perhaps (as im not a tradeskiller spy) 10 less intel at current standards to be considered balanced. This thread aint about spies though.

The pe as a class doesnt need power armour, for 100 reasons listed here already, the first off we dont need to look like everyone else and it will waste the devs time too much. For balance purposes now that every other class has pa pes will probably get it but the weapons (low end rares and pistols) need more tweaking and developing pa for pes isnt gonna do that.
Im just adding my voice to the din here. Id rather see a bunch of other stuff get fixed first.

Roc-a-fella
01-08-03, 16:44
+PE PA

Breschau
01-08-03, 18:58
Originally posted by CkVega
In other games I've played the JOAT class tended to have more overall stats than the more specialized classes (a bit like the red Mage in........ what the hell was that game called, you know... the one where thier was a white mage, a black mage and a red mage. The white mage had high level healing/white magic etc and the black mage had high level destructive magic and the red mage was a Hybrid of the 2, he couldn't get either skill upto the levels of a white or a black mage but had more overall stats?)


I've thought the same for a while now. I've just not suggested it because a) I doubt it'll ever happen and b) I really don't wanna have to wade through the angry responses I expected it to generate :)

But in general, x points focussed in one area beats x points spread out. So when there's a joat style class they usually make it x+y spread out vs x focussed. I suppose KK were trying to do similar in the skill system by the increased costs as the skills get higher, but it doesn't really work out quite that way in practice (given the levels you need to get a lot of the skills to for them to be effective with anyone but a newbie char).

RocX
18-09-03, 09:10
let me have it

Marx
18-09-03, 09:11
Yipee. Old ass thread.

:D

japata
18-09-03, 09:13
Originally posted by RocX
the boosts of the pa should be like this

for pE PA 3 8 dex 30 pistol or rifle 50 energy -3 int - 20 heavy combat -20 riflw or pistol oppistit of the choosen combat.

Req should be for pepa 3 like 80 dex 55 str 55 int and 100 pistol

now thats how its should be OMG yall dont know how to balance out a PA for anything.:lol:

NO WAY! -20 heavy combat my ass. I'm a HC PE dedicated to drive the gliders and assault trikes and I really enjoy this char. I think the PA should give only bonuses. :)

GurTjaN
18-09-03, 09:19
ERm str 60 as a req is hard to get cuz u want the dex boosters for your rares and the boosters give - str think of that plz i mean my str is at - 9 now :S

Kasumi
18-09-03, 09:20
Originally posted by ZoneVortex
Yeah, no PA for PEs. Play a non-JOAT if you want PA.

Jack of all trades master of non does not mean you DO NOT get something for yourself.. it means your skills are part of everyones.. but you dont master any of them.. being a Jack of all trades doesnt permit from not having something for yourself..

Marx
18-09-03, 09:24
Everyone look at the date of post before RocX's.

This argument is over, because PE's are getting PA's.

Nooq
18-09-03, 10:22
[edit: just noticed the date] :lol: :lol:


DROM's DROM's DROM's did i mention DROM's o_O

Sinead O'Connor
18-09-03, 14:16
nope, they shouldn't. pe's should mooch off of the other classes...just like they do for everything else.

mooch some spy stuff here...mooch some tank stuff there...even mooch a few monk things.....

i thought that's what the point of the class was....not to give us this bullshit class requirement on armor. that's really opening the door for KK to fuck us in the ass in a whole bunch of new ways.

Progenitor
18-09-03, 14:36
IMO, I think that PE's should be able to use the lowest level of any of the other PAs, an not have a specific PA to them.

Massage the reqs on all the other PAs, so that PEs can use the first.

The are the class with the most options, let them be able to pick and choose what they want to wear, for which occasion.

-p

Jesterthegreat
18-09-03, 15:15
theoretically no... jack of all trades...

but lets face it... they will cos everyone else is (fairness > roleplay?)