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bubby
25-07-03, 09:03
Damage from a tank with a cs is like cutting butter with a knife, have never won on a cs tank, I think we should have a defense or nerf the cs a little bit , tone it down so its fair.



:)
:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :angel:

Arcadius
25-07-03, 09:09
lol love the smilies in your post.



I do think tanks are SLIGHTLY overpowered. But their damage is fine. CS is supposed to do heavy damage. IMO tanks are supposed to have 2nd best defense(1st being ppu) and 2nd best offense(1st being apu).



However though I've seen too many tanks run at an awesome speed with their CS out. It shouldn't be that way IMO. ;)

And the lock on the CS should 'wear off' faster.


But other than that, I would say their pretty much balanced. Except Melee tanks.

Btw you said you've never won fighting a CS tank? What's your class and level?

bubby
25-07-03, 09:13
doesnt matter what level i had a capped monk a while back, the cs needs a nerf just like they did with everyone else, lower the damage and cast ///errrr shots perminute with the cs, its way too fast on a capped gun.

Just doenst seem fair. They keep nerfing everything else, TIME TO NERF THE CS In my own opinion.

Arcadius
25-07-03, 09:15
Originally posted by bubby
doesnt matter what level i had a capped monk a while back, the cs needs a nerf just like they did with everyone else, lower the damage and cast ///errrr shots perminute with the cs, its way too fast on a capped gun.

Just doenst seem fair. They keep nerfing everything else, TIME TO NERF THE CS In my own opinion.


What kind of monk? And how far back? Need details.


Btw just because other stuff gets nerfed doesn't mean everything you don't like should get nerfed too. :p


Damage on CS is fine IMO.

Crono
25-07-03, 09:16
lol, fast witht the CS, dont know what your talkin about :P



but its fine, i think this thread whas made as some sort of a retaliation on his part against Tanks who say "nerf hybrids" or "dont rais the lib dmg cause its aonly a non T-C weapon"

bubby
25-07-03, 09:17
tank aims fires then turns away and the shots still hit you, all four with a cs, then he turns aims shoots one, turns , the other three track you even if you try to dodge, like guided missles. And the dammage it does its outrageous with the rate of fire it has, it might as well be a speed gun .

Breschau
25-07-03, 09:19
I've fought some CS using tanks and won without even using a rare (EPR or Stabber Pulse). And I suck in PvP.

Admittably that implies they sucked too, but it at least suggests it can be done.

The ones that give me trouble are the ones that run really fast (with weapon drawn) since then my main defense - speed - is basically nullified.

Besides the speed issue, I have no concerns about tank strength atm.

edit:


tank aims fires then turns away and the shots still hit you, all four with a cs, then he turns aims shoots one, turns , the other three track you even if you try to dodge, like guided missles.
That actually happens with all burst weapons. Just more noticable with the CS since a burst takes a bit longer to fire than with, say, a liberator. I used to get exactly the same effect from an EPR (so First Love will be the same).

I think some people have a concern that once locked on it's too easy to maintain the lock, but that's a seperate issue.

Crono
25-07-03, 09:20
you have to be almost point blank to get hits like that though, dont forget that. half way across a room their not running with it hitting you with every shot, they have to crouch tohit u good there.


and u said you were a monk? how can u complain about tank aiming when you dont even have an aming circle, its just point and click :P

bubby
25-07-03, 09:20
its the aim without aiming and the rate of fire im talking about, I know its a rare but jeese, seems like a win button.

Arcadius
25-07-03, 09:21
Originally posted by Breschau


The ones that give me trouble are the ones that run really fast (with weapon drawn) since then my main defense - speed - is basically nullified.




AMEN!

BombShell
25-07-03, 09:21
Originally posted by bubby
tank aims fires then turns away and the shots still hit you, all four with a cs, then he turns aims shoots one, turns , the other three track you even if you try to dodge, like guided missles. And the dammage it does its outrageous with the rate of fire it has, it might as well be a speed gun . \

almost every thing u need to aim with guides. its just plazma has to fly throu the sky so u can see ur approaching doom.

i dont think cs needs any nerf.

and pisotls got a upgrade. its only been hybrids that really sufferd. and ppu's can take 17 damage from a cs burst.

well good Ppu's

bubby
25-07-03, 09:22
and yes I had the same advantage, i could aim and turn with my cs, capped in damage and turn away and the shots would still hit.

Crono
25-07-03, 09:24
the win button, lol havent heard that since the days of the Lib >_<

lol


but seriously, i have fought good APU's and its no win button.
even with my super speed with the CS or any other H-C weapon.

BombShell
25-07-03, 09:25
Originally posted by bubby
and yes I had the same advantage, i could aim and turn with my cs, capped in damage and turn away and the shots would still hit.

well kk can fix that. lets make CS instant hit. and so u dont see the flying plazma that fires :) when a tank shoots u with a burst all the bullets fire at its target. becuase it was aimed on u. kinda silly thou it comes from the bak but u just ran past him when u were infront of him. if it was instant then it wouldnt happen and this wouldnt hav came up:)

bubby
25-07-03, 09:25
i do decent damage but rate of fire with spells is not really that great.

used to be but that is in the past and i wont complain to much about it since kk dont like monkehs.

Just think it should be looked into is all.

Opiate
25-07-03, 09:27
Originally posted by Arcadius
However though I've seen too many tanks run at an awesome speed with their CS out.
That's a bug dude :rolleyes:

You see them with their guns out, whilke they really have them unequiped, it's been like this for a few months now

Breschau
25-07-03, 09:27
Originally posted by bubby
and yes I had the same advantage, i could aim and turn with my cs, capped in damage and turn away and the shots would still hit.

As I say, all burst weapons do that. Aim a gatlin, click fire and immediately swing away and the shots still connect as they would have if you had stayed still. The difference is they fire much faster so it's harder to notice.

Now if a *second seperate* burst still hits without you reacquiring aim, then that is a problem that needs addressed.

bd*
25-07-03, 09:27
CS doesnt need a nerf, but i cant say as to weather or not PEs or Spys need a boost as ive never got either to high level.

When the Monk PA FINALLY gets here most APUs will get the bonus and have a good mana pool, meaning we will hopefully once again be the real damage dealers.

Tanks just need to be slowed down as a couple of others in this thread stated. These warriors were made to win a war, they were made to be loyal (sod all intel so they couldnt think to revolt :p), they were made to be strong, they werent made to beat an F1 car O_o

Colt45
25-07-03, 09:27
ITS NOT THAT CS IS OVERPOWERED BUT THAT ITS TOO EASY TO USE

I've seen tanks with a cs have better aim then me with a capped epr. That's just disgusting. It's a fucking cannon. the damage doesn't need nerfed, it's just how completely idiot-friendly it is.

CS should kick like a mule and move like a grandma.
If it's a heavy weapon, AND A FUCKING MOBILE CANNON!!!
why are people running around handling it better then a rifle?

omfg it would be awesome if all cannons were Stand and fire only.

Arcadius
25-07-03, 09:27
Originally posted by Crono


but seriously, i have fought good APU's and its no win button.
'



Doombeam the floor. :p



Originally posted by bubby
i do decent damage but rate of fire with spells is not really that great.

used to be but that is in the past and i wont complain to much about it since kk dont like monkehs.

Just think it should be looked into is all.


As a pure apu you can DESTROY tanks with some distance. Get a good amount of range and take their legs out. Then it's over.

BombShell
25-07-03, 09:28
Originally posted by bubby
i do decent damage but rate of fire with spells is not really that great.

used to be but that is in the past and i wont complain to much about it since kk dont like monkehs.

Just think it should be looked into is all.

well beams r just as evil try running the corner and still receiveing 3 beems before the monk loses track :)

bubby
25-07-03, 09:28
Originally posted by BombShell
well kk can fix that. lets make CS instant hit. and so u dont see the flying plazma that fires :) when a tank shoots u with a burst all the bullets fire at its target. becuase it was aimed on u. kinda silly thou it comes from the bak but u just ran past him when u were infront of him. if it was instant then it wouldnt happen and this wouldnt hav came up:)

thats not what im saying, im saying if you move, it shouldnt ALWAYS hit you like it almost always does, i mean if you run from a rocket, and its aimed at you, you get away clean most of the time
but from a cs , the dang plasma follows you??? its guided plasma? Just think the dynamics of the cs should be looked into is all.

Arcadius
25-07-03, 09:29
Good point Colt.




Originally posted by Opiate
That's a bug dude :rolleyes:

You see them with their guns out, whilke they really have them unequiped, it's been like this for a few months now


So them shooting me while running at that speed and me dying is also a bug?


Or were you being sarcastic?

bubby
25-07-03, 09:30
Originally posted by Colt45
ITS NOT THAT CS IS OVERPOWERED BUT THAT ITS TOO EASY TO USE

I've seen tanks with a cs have better aim then me with a capped epr. That's just disgusting. It's a fucking cannon. the damage doesn't need nerfed, it's just how completely idiot-friendly it is.

CS should kick like a mule and move like a grandma.
If it's a heavy weapon, AND A FUCKING MOBILE CANNON!!!
why are people running around handling it better then a rifle?

omfg it would be awesome if all cannons were Stand and fire only.


AMEN BROTHER

that is what i was thinking too.

BombShell
25-07-03, 09:31
Originally posted by bubby
thats not what im saying, im saying if you move, it shouldnt ALWAYS hit you like it almost always does, i mean if you run from a rocket, and its aimed at you, you get away clean most of the time
but from a cs , the dang plasma follows you??? its guided plasma? Just think the dynamics of the cs should be looked into is all.

well i understand wut u r saying u want a mroe realistic affect.

but its all in the aiming system. wants a cs locks on u. and u past right in the middle of the fire or move away form a distance if follows. but lets just pretend that its a instant shot and we wont hav any problems. PE and libs can do instant y but CS :)

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 09:32
CS tanks dont need to be nerfed. Infact the targeting recticle on all weapons need to be fixed. It is very buggy atm. In neofrag today I was making small and repeated movements over a afk person with my CS. I noticed that doing the same movements the rectile would either completely break or not at all, and these movments were pretty much exactly the same as the next. When the rectile completely breaks that means it takes quite a bit of recovery time, and sometimes it doesnt break at all when it should. This should be fixed, I dont think it would be so much as a nerf but a fix so skill would matter more than just "lets hope the rectile doesnt fuck up". Infact this might be more of a problem for pistol users than CS tanks. I never PvPed with pistols so I wouldn't know. If it is a big problem for pistol users, then this could be the fix they are looking for and not even know it.

bubby
25-07-03, 09:33
projectile is coming and you see it from a little distance, and you try and dodge, it shouldnt hit you, you move out of the way

flys past

at least some shots shouldnt hit you


and yes either take some damage off or slow down the rate of fire and ill be happy

BombShell
25-07-03, 09:34
well if thats the case u want me to stand still i want mroe power on my cs. because i am just a giant meat shield.

OTIS
25-07-03, 09:34
tank aims fires then turns away and the shots still hit you, all four with a cs, then he turns aims shoots one, turns , the other three track you even if you try to dodge, like guided missles. And the dammage it does its outrageous with the rate of fire it has, it might as well be a speed gun .

First off...the tank is the main fighting class...So obviously they are going to have the hardest hitting weps and best defense in the game.

Second, have u ever seen a mob attack? Such as a Grim Persecutor...They have tracking fireballs and your complaining about a hightech weapon,created ~2000 years from now, having tracking rounds?o_O

And btw plasma(if not all) weps with ANY class char track once you start the attack u can go anywhere and the rounds will hit.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 09:34
Originally posted by bubby
projectile is coming and you see it from a little distance, and you try and dodge, it shouldnt hit you, you move out of the way

flys past

at least some shots shouldnt hit you


and yes either take some damage off or slow down the rate of fire and ill be happy

They pretty much have to have it like this unless they can reduce everyones ping to 100 or better at all times.

[EDIT]

I am also sick and tired of hearing people say tanks have the best defense in the game when it is NOT true. PE's have the second best defenses in the game next to PPU's when setup right. If you have a shitty setup, then dont cry nerf, put your brain into it and FIX IT YOURSELF.

bubby
25-07-03, 09:36
Originally posted by OTIS
First off...the tank is the main fighting class...So obviously they are going to have the hardest hitting weps and best defense in the game.

Second, have u ever seen a mob attack? Such as a Grim Persecutor...They have tracking fireballs and your complaining about a hightech weapon,created ~2000 years from now, having tracking rounds?o_O

And btw plasma(if not all) weps with ANY class char track once you start the attack u can go anywhere and the rounds will hit.
BUT IT SHOULDNT, why should it track? its plasma, not a smart bomb, not a guided missle its plasma, ITS AN EXPLOIT :)

Arcadius
25-07-03, 09:36
Originally posted by bubby
projectile is coming and you see it from a little distance, and you try and dodge, it shouldnt hit you, you move out of the way

flys past

at least some shots shouldnt hit you




ALL weapons in this game WILL hit you if you try to dodge AFTER the person has "fired" a shot when their recticle was on you.


The only reason you notice this with the CS is because there's an actual animation of "bullets" hitting you. But it's no different than a pistol hitting you instantly.


If I tell a monk to shoot me with flame avalanche from a distance, AFTER he fired his shot, if I try to move and dodge it it won't work i'll still get hit.

Same thing with HL, which is instant.

Breschau
25-07-03, 09:38
Basically, all weapons that require a lock (ie, not area effect) are instant hit. It's just some of them have a non-instant animation - they're still instant hit regardless of that.

If I understand correctly it's done that way to greatly reduce the work the server has to do (doesn't have to keep track of every single bullet fired in the entire world) so speed and lag isn't as bad.

bd*
25-07-03, 09:38
You can run behind a clift though and it will land harmlessly on the other side...

BombShell
25-07-03, 09:40
Originally posted by bubby
projectile is coming and you see it from a little distance, and you try and dodge, it shouldnt hit you, you move out of the way

flys past

at least some shots shouldnt hit you


and yes either take some damage off or slow down the rate of fire and ill be happy

well its also aiming. a cs trys to shoot u at a distances. chances r that half the shots will miss. and u can dodge it behind a tree or something. but from now adays thats consider exploiting.

and close up usally 1 bullets will miss. even if its in your face. so its kinda of a far deal. just remeber we dont hav real good aim on small target boxs with cs. thats were r gats come in. but even the its still misses most of its shots.

OTIS
25-07-03, 09:42
projectile is coming and you see it from a little distance, and you try and dodge, it shouldnt hit you, you move out of the way

IF they did that they would have to make crosshairs(idk how that is spelled) and they would have to make all the rounds follow the same path... and sniping and long range shots would be impossible thanx to the sweet ass bullet time(my words for the time it takes the bullet to leave the barrel, to the time it hits target)

And why the fuck are people screaming exploit everytime something is bias against your class or you "hide behind a tree?"

bubby
25-07-03, 09:47
thats a good idea, build that into the code so its more realistic. I mean yes speed gun is uber, no doubt, and the rate of fire is UBER, but the cs needs work to make it balanced and the aiming needs some tweaking imo.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 09:54
Originally posted by bubby
thats a good idea, build that into the code so its more realistic. I mean yes speed gun is uber, no doubt, and the rate of fire is UBER, but the cs needs work to make it balanced and the aiming needs some tweaking imo.

The CS is balanced, there are a couple bugs though that effects it as well as other weapons like I pointed out earlier. CS aim doesn't need tweaking, all weapons that use the same targeting system as CS needs a fix because atm it is bugged.

Stigmata
25-07-03, 09:56
CS should kick like a mule and move like a grandma.
If it's a heavy weapon, AND A FUCKING MOBILE CANNON!!!
why are people running around handling it better then a rifle?

omfg it would be awesome if all cannons were Stand and fire only.

ok not sure if you where around when the patch hit that made all tanks using heavy weapons into turret tanks, that was the biggest fuckup ever.

just coz you are too shit to use tactics against a tank, hell its not fucking hard,
as an apu you can wipe one out just using range
as a spy/pe rifleman you have the range advantage
as ppu you can stand and laugh at them
as a pe you have so much fucking speed you can run circles round most average tanks.

Have you noticed that in an op war all the clan are turning up with 2 tanks and 17 monks ?

if your fucked up idea was introduced, it would be the end of tanks and the end of 1 v's 1 skilled dueling.

all that would be left would be point and click monks.

Andy

OTIS
25-07-03, 10:00
thats a good idea, build that into the code so its more realistic. I mean yes speed gun is uber, no doubt, and the rate of fire is UBER, but the cs needs work to make it balanced and the aiming needs some tweaking imo

Its alrdy in place go out snipeing and look now long it takes from when u shoot your wep till the bullet hits your target...now think of doing that pvp with a guy running zig zags at you till he gets close enuff to u to use his cs or whatever. I think the cs is fine and btw what class are u bubby?

SorkZmok
25-07-03, 10:02
Originally posted by Arcadius
However though I've seen too many tanks run at an awesome speed with their CS out. It shouldn't be that way IMO. ;)

And the lock on the CS should 'wear off' faster.


Amen to that. Talking about CS Damge, i think its fine, it _should_ do some devastating Damage. But being a Pistol PE, my only chance is speed. What means i can run faster with my gun out and aim faster.

But most tanks still are as fast as me :mad:

Also i think the Aiming on Cannons should be slower or maybe it should get worse when they get too close, opening up again from one point....

Crono
25-07-03, 10:04
no other class is meant to take a tank face to face. think about it, thats just stupid to try. a tank is a stupid but strong class.

im not saying they should always win, but other classes just areant meant to be able to go to a tanks face and fire shot for shot and think they should have a chance to win.


APU's are emant to keep distance and fire their nice insta shoot spells and kill from a distance. a pistol user should circle and ruin around. a spy, rifel user should keep distance, thats the point of rifels.


if you slow down the rate of fire and lower the dmg a bit then the Tank is of equal ground as a PE in 1v1 pvp face to face (thats given bolth players of same skill)

if that is the case, wtf is the point of being a tank.

[EDIT]
about speed, lol with my CS i can almost run as fast as some caped spy's >_<
but that my own doing by insanly overskilling ath and agil, so i have less in those groups for other things.

Cryton
25-07-03, 10:11
ok not sure if you where around when the patch hit that made all tanks using heavy weapons into turret tanks, that was the biggest fuckup ever.

just coz you are too shit to use tactics against a tank, hell its not fucking hard,
as an apu you can wipe one out just using range
as a spy/pe rifleman you have the range advantage
as ppu you can stand and laugh at them
as a pe you have so much fucking speed you can run circles round most average tanks.

Have you noticed that in an op war all the clan are turning up with 2 tanks and 17 monks ?

if your fucked up idea was introduced, it would be the end of tanks and the end of 1 v's 1 skilled dueling.

all that would be left would be point and click monks.

Andy

Amen brother

/Cryton


-N00bs and opinions - a dangerous cocktail :p

Arcadius
25-07-03, 10:13
Originally posted by Crono
no other class is meant to take a tank face to face. think about it, thats just stupid to try. a tank is a stupid but strong class.

im not saying they should always win, but other classes just areant meant to be able to go to a tanks face and fire shot for shot and think they should have a chance to win.

a pistol user should circle and ruin around.



I see a pistol user has no choice but to go face to face. Now you're saying no other class is supposed to beat a tank like that.


So you're saying the Pistol Pe's job is just to run around the tank like an idiot and get owned?

Doesn't make sense.

phunqe
25-07-03, 10:18
Actualy excerpt from Cisco router log file at necron.jafc.de network:

[2003-07-22 16:36:33.454 forumd] Packet recieved: xxxTOC¤Demand Monk nerf56TOPIC
[2003-07-22 16:36:33.455 forumd] Packet recieved: 54POST¤Nerf teh monksENTxx5
[2003-07-22 16:36:33.456 forumd] Last message repeated
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[2003-07-23 11:23:33.112 forumd] Master uber packet recieved: FROMxxMJSPOST¤Monk nerf complete
[2003-07-24 11:23:33.116 forumd] Packet recieved: POST¤xxYAYxx3¤2
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[2003-07-25 09:42:23.731 forumd] Packet recieved: xxxTOCTank nerf37xxTOPIC#
[2003-07-25 09:42:23.732 forumd] Packet inconsistency error. Shutdown.

Arcadius
25-07-03, 10:20
ROFLMAO phunge.

Stigmata
25-07-03, 10:22
Actualy excerpt from Cisco router log file at necron.jafc.de network:

[2003-07-22 16:36:33.454 forumd] Packet recieved: xxxTOC¤Demand Monk nerf56TOPIC
[2003-07-22 16:36:33.455 forumd] Packet recieved: 54POST¤Nerf teh monksENTxx5
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[2003-07-23 11:23:33.112 forumd] Master uber packet recieved: FROMxxMJSPOST¤Monk nerf complete
[2003-07-24 11:23:33.116 forumd] Packet recieved: POST¤xxYAYxx3¤2
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[2003-07-25 09:42:23.731 forumd] Packet recieved: xxxTOCTank nerf37xxTOPIC#
[2003-07-25 09:42:23.732 forumd] Packet inconsistency error. Shutdown.

W T F W T F

Crono
25-07-03, 10:22
Originally posted by Arcadius
I see a pistol user has no choice but to go face to face. Now you're saying no other class is supposed to beat a tank like that.


So you're saying the Pistol Pe's job is just to run around the tank like an idiot and get owned?

Doesn't make sense.

no, not really, but if they have the SAME PLAYER SKILL then no they shouldnt have the same chance of winning as the tank does. the pistol PE is a jack of all trades char with a gun.its like pitting a marine with a fully auto chain gun and a gunsmith or some other civilian person and handing him a pistol and pitting them against each other. one is a insane killer ;) and the other is a normal person with a normal job with a normal life.

Arcadius
25-07-03, 10:24
WEll I guess ur right Crono, of equal skill they shouldn't win.



Also pistol pes can afford to hack or implant which is a big boon.

Crono
25-07-03, 10:27
an APU is another story, if they play their cards right they should be able to own a tank. they just need to keep a half a room away from the tank. if their is cover like in a few of the NF rooms, they are great killing machines. i usually end up pulling out my maladection to kill them, even with all my insane speed. its not something i would do in a real fight, but its fun using a Fusion in NF. reminds me of rocket launchers in TFC.

bd*
25-07-03, 10:28
Originally posted by Crono
no, not really, but if they have the SAME PLAYER SKILL then no they shouldnt have the same chance of winning as the tank does. the pistol PE is a jack of all trades char with a gun.its like pitting a marine with a fully auto chain gun and a gunsmith or some other civilian person and handing him a pistol and pitting them against each other. one is a insane killer ;) and the other is a normal person with a normal job with a normal life.

But by the rules a APU monk should be able to kill a Tank by just looking at him, or so the story goes ;) However that wouldnt be fair or fun.

The PE should stand a chance as he should be a fair amount faster than the tank. However in the game the Tank is normally faster thereby negating the only advantage a PE should have over him.

Crono
25-07-03, 10:30
beat u to the monk part :P
:P
:P
:P
:P
:P



a PE shouldnt be faster. a Tank is like a soldier, all day they run in traning. a normal person... well usually their eating while soldiers are running>_<


but a PE should be faster than a tank when he has a cannon out. unless the tank decidded to gimp his resists or HP pool to be really fast.

phunqe
25-07-03, 10:32
Originally posted by stigmata
W T F W T F

*twitch* w-w-w-w-hat? *puff* *twitch*

bd*
25-07-03, 10:33
Originally posted by Crono

beat u to the monk part :P
:P
:P
:P
:P
:P



Bite me :p :D o_O

Crono
25-07-03, 10:34
lol >_<
:lol:

SorkZmok
25-07-03, 10:43
Originally posted by Arcadius
WEll I guess ur right Crono, of equal skill they shouldn't win.



Also pistol pes can afford to hack or implant which is a big boon.

:mad: :mad:
I think they should at least have a good chance, cause a pistol PEs advantage should be speed and fast aiming....but it isnt atm, tanks are running nearly as fast as most PEs AND aim way too fast close up....o_O

Also, if you wanna be a good pvp pistol pe, you really should pump ALL points into wep cause it helps capping damage a lot :)

phunqe
25-07-03, 10:46
Ok, when the thread first started I actually thought it was a joke.

Are you serious??!? :eek: :eek: o_O o_O

bd*
25-07-03, 10:48
I do think Tanks are too fast, but i dont think they are doing too much damage.

Thats not to say i approve of the Monk3t killer, i mean the speedgun :p

SorkZmok
25-07-03, 10:49
Originally posted by phunqe
Ok, when the thread first started I actually thought it was a joke.

Are you serious??!? :eek: :eek: o_O o_O

A bit, yes

But i`m sick of talking about it.

Atm I`m fine, cause i can hear the wave of Pistol Improvement coming and i got my Surfboard ready :lol:

Crono
25-07-03, 10:50
if you see a tank fast with a heavy weapon, then their gimped on resists and HP. i have something like 130 ath and 135 agil, i should be fastert them most everyone with my CS out :P

SorkZmok
25-07-03, 10:54
Originally posted by Crono
if you see a tank fast with a heavy weapon, then their gimped on resists and HP. i have something like 130 ath and 135 agil, i should be fastert them most everyone with my CS out :P

if you see a pe fast with a hightech pistol, then their gimped on resists and HP and damage and RoF and theyre on drugs.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 10:56
Originally posted by SorkZmok
if you see a pe fast with a hightech pistol, then their gimped on resists and HP and damage and RoF and theyre on drugs.



Hi tech rare pistol like ROLH and maybe Judge, then yes... Blacksun other non rare hi tech pistol, then no.

SorkZmok
25-07-03, 11:01
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Hi tech rare pistol like ROLH and maybe Judge, then yes... Blacksun other non rare hi tech pistol, then no.

But you _need_ rare guns to participate in PvP o_O

REMUS
25-07-03, 11:20
the lock on a cs is the same as any other friggin weapon, we get about 260% aim MAX thats capped str all in h-c 120% aim on cs with pa2 on all the best implants herc, marine, move on harden back bone 3 and a fort OP.

now monks have been nerfed ppl want the next best class to be nerfed tanks................. the only thing i can see thats wrong with a tank is they might a little bit to fast with a cannon out.

all this shit you guys thing is new that you are whineing about isnt its already been disscussed and nerfed, FFS tanks used to run at full run speed with cs! i cant imagine the amount of bitching that would go on in these forums if that was still in effect.

I really wish KK would just get a group of ppl that have been playing a long ass time like QD cracky and ppl like that and form a think tank rather than listening to the hordes of ppl that just got killed by a monk or a tank or seen a pe cap in 3 days or a spy shoot them with a silent hunter and stealth till they are dead or fall down and hurt their little knee and need a plaster from mummy MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Its pressure from idiots that makes KK do things that hurt the game, monks have just been analised, why? becuase we have had about 3 months of ppl spamming the forums with fucking polls and lame posts "this one hybrid kiled 8 ppl and sexed our poor dead bodies, NERF DEM other wise ill cry and cancel my subscription" I agree hybrids where tough but they wernt overly powerful, i can think of two hybrids on pluto that i couldnt kill crypto chronic and cylon THATS IT they are the ppl that got the nerf becuase everytime they killed some one they automatically gave them the impression that all hybrids are that good, THEY ARNT!! now everyone is either turning ppu or apu and guess which is gonna STILL BE THE DOMINANT CLASS! FUCKING MONKS all KK have done is given rise to hundreds of apu+ppu teams accross the servers, a ppu buffed apu monk its not something to be taken lightly even if the shelter+deflector combo is weaker i can barely survive 4 stacks of toxic beam from a pure apu with 50+ poison resist and 93 con.


END OF GIMPING PISSED OFF REMUS RANT MEHHHHHHHHHHHH!
:(

Arcadius
25-07-03, 11:22
omg relax remus breathe. :p




Btw you're right, their are loads more ppus and apus now.


Interesting. I kinda liked being one of the few apus though.

Marneus Calgar
25-07-03, 12:35
Originally posted by bubby
have never won on a cs tank,


Then try a fight with me.. and you WILL win.. if you dont.. its just you that sux :D :D :D

Jerako Exzuto
25-07-03, 12:47
Originally posted by REMUS
I really wish KK would just get a group of ppl that have been playing a long ass time like QD cracky and ppl like that and form a think tank rather than listening to the hordes of ppl that just got killed by a monk or a tank or seen a pe cap in 3 days or a spy shoot them with a silent hunter and stealth till they are dead or fall down and hurt their little knee and need a plaster from mummy MEHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


Hell yes! stop listening to the masses of mindless idiots! listen to the people who know whats going on...THE VETS and dont swing the nerf bat like a noob killin flies with a bat in the sewers

Hecate
25-07-03, 12:47
Is there any other game that sniper is not the most powerfull weapon ?

We have 4 classes. How something that it is 2nd at offence and 2nd at defence is ballanced ? How tanks can still be balanced after so many patches that nerfed other classes?

Ok lets go serius now. Spy is agille but tanks run faster. APU Monk is the damager but tanks do more damage over time cause they live longer. Tanks can be good at both worlds (offence and defence) at the same time and be able to run also with heavy weapons on them and heavy armor. GenTanks, HulkTanks or TroopCarrierTanks? Tanks should be slow as tanks.

What is the point if you are a rifle spy and "supposed" you are at the agille class and your good point is your distance when a tank can run close to you in no time? Tank has offence, defence and distance (cause of running speed) as good points.

We dont like nerfs, but i see every day a tank cry at forums for uber ppu/apu-monks. It started from "Not all hybrid monks are uber but only 3-4" and ended at that all monks are uber.

If Spy had long, Monk/PE medium and Tank short attack range CS would be fine. But tanks speed makes all distances have no meaning. Why is logical that Hovertech runs faster than Rhino when is not logical a Spy that runs faster than a Tank?

my 2 cents

Original monk
25-07-03, 12:49
now that the monks are NERFED to dead (hybrids) i wonder wich class will be next, lets yust give us all guns that shoot pingpongballs and remove all armour to compensate, maybe we got balanced classes then

Cryton
25-07-03, 12:54
You don't want QD in a think tank Remus, then Tanks would be Da gimps that even 1/1 rank mobs would laugh their pants off :p

/Cryton

Jerako Exzuto
25-07-03, 13:05
you right i used to hang out with QD in game now and then and he would probly make PEs uber :D but still i think i should be in this think tank since im good at balancing shit! but then PPUs and Spies would be able to solo and perhaps a spy would kill a tank in PvP! oooh well wont happen i guess

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 13:05
Okay....wtf......before I start cryton, shut the hell up.
You know shit about me and you don't know how I work.
Piss off back to pluto.
on to topic.


CS DOES NOT NEED AN OUT RIGHT NERF

If you were to nerf the damage it would have to be an EXTREMELY SLIGHT nerf.
RoF? No, that doesn't need nerfing either.

The only thing that needs to be changed with CS is that when they lose target lock, the reticle resets to _FULL OPEN_ which it does not.


Defencively, Tanks do not need a nerf (..compared to spies okay maybe but no, just ...no).
Tanks themselves, well, Tanks can overspec the runspeed cap quite a bit so that when they pull their CS they're running very close to the runspeed cap itself...

CS + Tank = Moderately overpowered, yes, but not to the point that hybrids were, and KK cannot afford to "Destroy CS" damage because that is the sole thing Tanks are there to do, damage.

-
Fix the aiming.
Boost Pistols.
Give Spies defence.

Classes balanced.
(Ahem re-boost hybrids slightly).
K?


Fuck you tank boys.


Jerako, you didn't hang out with me, you just caused shit that I had to deal with.
God I'm tired of people going "I'm QDs friend" and shit to score pioints it's pissing me off.

phunqe
25-07-03, 13:15
"The GenTank is a product of the Ceres wars. He is especially robust and strong as he was created for military purposes."

I think the tank is currently well fitted into that description.

In battle:

Tank > PE
Tank > Spy
Tank >= APU (depending a bit on the skills and spells involved, don't forget that APU have better CON and armour than a spy and can deal a great amout of damage. Not to mention the holy pestilence, which could kill the tank anyway after the APU dies. Dpends on the APU's CON setup and the belt + the damage of the CS or whatever). However, a TSG is a bit tough for the APU :p
Tank >= Spy+PPU
Tank < APU+PPU
Tank < PE+PPU
Tank = PPU (noone wins)

WTF IS THE PROBLEM?!?!?!

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 13:18
Originally posted by phunqe
"The GenTank is a product of the Ceres wars. He is especially robust and strong as he was created for military purposes."

I think the tank is currently well fitted into that description.

In battle:

Tank > PE
Tank > Spy
Tank >= APU (depending a bit on the skills and spells involved, don't forget that APU have better CON and armour than a spy and can deal a great amout of damage. Not to mention the holy pestilence, which could kill the tank anyway after the APU dies)
Tank >= Spy+PPU
Tank < APU+PPU
Tank < PE+PPU
Tank = PPU (noone wins)

WTF IS THE PROOOOOBLEEEEEEEM?!?!?! A lot damnit.

Tank should be easier(st) to setup than everything else for combat but should not automatically = #1 if they're at their maximum.

Remember tanks were thrown out in their thousands, to die, in the hopes that they would kill some enemies, and those that died, were very quickly replaced.
They won the war through sheer numbers, not firepower skill or speed.

icarium
25-07-03, 13:19
tanks are BRED FOR BATTLE. i am sick of pe's moaning that tanks are better at PVP. wtf you expect? they are a class based solely on combat. the PE is the jack of all trades master of none i.e they are able to do many different things but not specialise as much as other classes. if you wanted a class that can run fast wear heavy armour and fir big cannons you should have been a tank. i mean ffs if all these whiners had their way all classes would be EXACTLY the same.

phunqe
25-07-03, 13:22
However, I think all classes should be owned by the tank. If not accompanied by a PPU or if the class is a PPU itself.

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 13:23
Originally posted by icarium
tanks are BRED FOR BATTLE. i am sick of pe's moaning that tanks are better at PVP. wtf you expect? they are a class based solely on combat. the PE is the jack of all trades master of none i.e they are able to do many different things but not specialise as much as other classes. if you wanted a class that can run fast wear heavy armour and fir big cannons you should have been a tank. i mean ffs if all these whiners had their way all classes would be EXACTLY the same.

n00b.
JOAT != Gimp.
JOAT = "I will rely on a less proficient use of all stat lines to mack up for lacking proficient use of any stat lines to equal a class that can only proficiently use two stat lines"


Tanks should automatically be gimp and lose every thing because they can't use PSI and Spies should automatically be gimp and lose everything they have no strength.

I'm tired of these stupid tanks that want to be #1, want to be on top, just because of their class.
Real american Rambos right? or just the old english hard ass druggie fuck? "uhuhhuhuhuh.... I'm hard haha fuck you" o.O
k.
I don't wanna see that shit on my games, I don't play Counter Strike for a reason ya know.

If cannons are so powerful and so much like real life they should be completely useless at close range, if pistols were so much like real life they should still kill in one hit even if they can't hit shit at long range and be deadly at close range.
wtf is your problem? o_O






You think.
That's what all the frickin tanks think.
Just because they wanna be on top - what you can't handle a fair fight?

icarium
25-07-03, 13:28
QD youmissed my point, do pay attention lad

TANKS = COMBAT BASED CLASS
PE= GENERAL CLASS UNABLE TO SPECIALISE

therefore tank should beat a pe of the same level

and before youcome out with some other pointless rambling i have 2 spy characters a monk and a tank.

bd*
25-07-03, 13:34
How about this then. The only population of DoY was Monks, PEs and Spys, im not actually sure if there were Monks.

Tanks were created in Neocron by the Monks to defeat DoY. It took thousands and thousands of tanks to defeat the city made up of purely of Monks/Spys/Pes... as QD said they won through sheer numbers.

Does this mean that Monks/Spys/Pes should actually be the uber ones and be able to solo 3 or 4 tanks at a time?

shodanjr_gr
25-07-03, 13:36
Originally posted by Hecate

If Spy had long, Monk/PE medium and Tank short attack range CS would be fine. But tanks speed makes all distances have no meaning. Why is logical that Hovertech runs faster than Rhino when is not logical a Spy that runs faster than a Tank?



Maybe the tank is faster than the spy because they are genetically enhanced, bioengineered supersoldiers???Ive never seen a marine run slow...

SorkZmok
25-07-03, 13:36
Originally posted by icarium
the PE is the jack of all trades master of none i.e they are able to do many different things but not specialise as much as other classes.

God, i am so fucking tired hearing this shit. And i`m even too tired to explain why :mad: :mad:

Cryton
25-07-03, 13:37
QD I would advise you to keep a civil tone. If you want to bitch you can feel free to PM me. Apparently humor isn't the strong point.

/Cryton

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 13:39
Originally posted by icarium
QD youmissed my point, do pay attention lad

TANKS = COMBAT BASED CLASS
PE= GENERAL CLASS UNABLE TO SPECIALISE

therefore tank should beat a pe of the same level

and before youcome out with some other pointless rambling i have 2 spy characters a monk and a tank.

I don't give a shit o_O

PE = General class no.!
This is not how the PE works and only people who either a) haven't played one, or b) idiots who don't know wtf they're doing with one can possibly say this with a straight face.

PEs depend on everything, INT, DEX, STR, PSI and CON.
Tanks depend on STR and CON, and then to a lesser extent DEX, and then INT to an almost non-existant extend, and PSI, even less so.

PEs, when using _All_ of their resources to a maximum level (eg; not just some setup you throw together ona tank like marine/zerk/zerk/amc3 or marine/moveon/zerk/zerk = good str) or whatever, but a seriously, well thought out, balanced PE setup that gives PE access to the med enr belt, the better psi capabilities it can have, masterful administration of the CON points available to it, and good placing of it's DEX Points.
PEs should, when truly mastered, equal a tank.
not "haha... you haven't got a stat 100 j00 sux0r" because that's not why KK gave us 60/60/65/80/35 - if they wanted us to be gimped and not combat capable, we'd be 60/60/60/60/60 -that's gimped.

KK wants balance, and it will happen.
It's just that the tanks out number most other classes because people want to pwnz0r shit.

christ.
Threads like this will never stop coming because people want balance.
just because you primarily play a tank doesn't mean you should be on top.

That's why I never minded the hybrids being overpowered much.
Because they were an annoyance to this tank attitude of "I r tank i r best fuk j00" attitude.


If you want me to keep a civil tone keep your bullshit remarks about me to your god damn self okay?

shodanjr_gr
25-07-03, 13:45
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
.


(Ahem re-boost hybrids slightly).




LoL are those words actually coming from your mouth QD?
You just earned yourself a lot of respect for me :angel: :angel:

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 13:46
I want all classes (when setup, tooled up, and played to their 100%) to be equal...
I don't mind tanks 50% = PEs 75% as long as 100% = 100% to everyone else....

Hecate
25-07-03, 13:48
Originally posted by shodanjr_gr
Maybe the tank is faster than the spy because they are genetically enhanced, bioengineered supersoldiers???Ive never seen a marine run slow...

marines have endurance not speed. and i can run faster than my marine cousin. not to mention if he is full of guns and backpack :p

and btw marines are closer to PEs than Tanks.

Hecate
25-07-03, 13:57
Originally posted by phunqe
However, I think all classes should be owned by the tank. If not accompanied by a PPU or if the class is a PPU itself.

Yes and Tanks must pay less money to play this game cause they own all also and of cource can come to forum and ask for balance but only on other clases.

Now i see what "ballance" means for tanks. other classes are ballanced if tanks owns them all the times at every situation.

Hecate
25-07-03, 14:04
Originally posted by phunqe
"The GenTank is a product of the Ceres wars. He is especially robust and strong as he was created for military purposes."

I think the tank is currently well fitted into that description.

WTF IS THE PROBLEM?!?!?!

Must read all the story... not the good parts for tanks only. You are not the original GenTanks and Monks are not the Monks that could kill a Tank instant with their psi powers.

bubby
25-07-03, 14:28
Originally posted by Hecate
Yes and Tanks must pay less money to play this game cause they own all also and of cource can come to forum and ask for balance but only on other clases.

Now i see what "ballance" means for tanks. other classes are ballanced if tanks owns them all the times at every situation.

I guess thats what its all about TANKOCRON, I can see it now, no spies, no pe's, no monk;s just a bunch of tanks running around looking for pokes, oh no one pokes, they all tanks, anyone construct? NOpe, we all tanks, can i get some research>? nope we all tanks, Can you heal me? sure but it will take 20 minutes cause we are all tanks, balance is one thing but UBER NERFER is killing this game.

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 14:30
heh, hecate begins to learn why i hate tanks..........:p

Lucjan
25-07-03, 14:37
And here goes the same old shit again...

Finding "I got owned"....found.
Finding "I have no idea about how the game works"...found.
Finding "Stupid story descriptions to back up balancing issues"...found.

Let me enlighten the n00bs in this thread about some things concerning the GenTank.

-It is the basic warrior class. All other classes should be balanced based on it. If a class is too weak, that class needs a boosts. You never screw around with the base class when it finally got almost perfectly balanced after many many months.

-Tanks are fast when not holding a cannon.

-Tanks can be fast with their cannon out. But this requires overspecs on ATL and AGL on an insane level making such a tank much weaker then "normal" tanks. If you can't fight a speed tank, you can't aim - it is that simple. You will have the same problem with every fast pistol PE and every pure melee tank as well. Are we going to nerf pistol PEs and melee tanks too?

-Cursed Soul and Pain Easer are probably the best balanced weapons in the game. Don't even think about changing them.

-Tanks aim slow. They have no way unlike other classes and weapon types to improve their aim. That is the reason you see CS tanks fighting on melee range. Some steps back, and the CS gets slow to aim and very inaccurate. You don't want to stay close to a CS tank unless you are one yourself.

-Some problems within the aim mechanic. Yes there are some at least on all plasma burst weapons. The rectile lock does sometimes behave somehow strange.

-Tanks are not easy nor hard to skill. All classes are skilled on the same system. If you know how it works, there is no difference in skilling a tank or a spy. If you don't know the class you want to skill, you won't do it properly.

-Tanks don't have uber armor and PA doesnt provide a god mode. Actually monks have the best armor and a PA does more harm then good to a tank on most decent setups.

When it comes to PvP, all classes skilled on pure combat should be equal. They should differ in the way how to fight. A sniper spy with stealth is a great example how it works. Sniping from distance, stealth and relocate is how he fights. He can beat a tank with a SH when fully dedicated to combat and in proper position with ease. He fights a tank face to face, he dies.

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 14:43
Not bad lucjan, you did that in a completely (well nearly) unbiased light and without flamagins heh.

Pretty much agree with all of that. :p

RoG may need to be addressed at some point..

Ste-X
25-07-03, 14:45
tanks are fine, if meelee got a boost maybe tanks would have more skill to put into,

any one with any half skill will know not to fight a tank at close range since thats the only range the cs is effective a apu monk can drop a tank at 50 m range without geting hit,


the fact monks are just point and click and have no time to aim a reticle


just learn how to fight please before you come moan here

icarium
25-07-03, 14:48
icjun said all that needed to be said

Hecate
25-07-03, 14:49
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
heh, hecate begins to learn why i hate tanks..........:p

I dont like play as tank but i dont hate them for sure. I can say the opposite. I like the tanks in this game. I just dont like that "ME BIG TANK. ME GREAT STRENGTH. ME MAD UBER KILLAH. ME VANISH YOU ALL. ME IS MASTER AND YOU ARE THE SLAVES. ME WILL OWN YOU ELSE ILL ASK FOR NERF" way of thinking of some players.

alig
25-07-03, 14:54
Originally posted by bubby
doesnt matter what level i had a capped monk a while back, the cs needs a nerf just like they did with everyone else, lower the damage and cast ///errrr shots perminute with the cs, its way too fast on a capped gun.

Just doenst seem fair. They keep nerfing everything else, TIME TO NERF THE CS In my own opinion.

WTF do u mean....a capped apu monk can kill a capped tank...trust me ur just shite at pvp :p im capped tank and a capped monk(bar int) can kill me w/o fail!!!not all apu's but this one can(fw)

Learn to fight sux0rz:D :lol:

Xian
25-07-03, 14:54
Only thing that's overpowered with CS weilding Tanks are the Tanks with super-high runspeed and the reticle lock.

The runspeed could be fixed with a hardcap on it whilst you have your cannon out; right now it takes a heck of a lot in both ATH/AGL to get the kind of results that are noticeable.. but those who can do it run around like Lib PEs with a CS out - which I agree is wrong.

The reticle is another problem. I tested that quite a lot and it seems to be the most prominent out of any weapon I tested with. A tank can run straight past someone and shoot plasma out his backside a couple of seconds (I counted 3 on one occasion) after the reticle is not on someone and he has run past them.

The thing is, people say that the reticle hasn't started to 'open' yet, which although there isn't a visual reticle, allows someone to fire on-target shots regardless of which way they're facing. That's not necessarily true, as if you stand on the brink of a CS cannon's range (so your reticle isn't fully closed, quite open), you'll see you can make all four plasma blobs hit sometimes. At other times - even when you're right up next to something - all four blobs might miss.

What I'm saying is that the reticle isn't necessarily fully closed when someone fires plasma from a CS backwards .. so people fighting a CS tank are at even more of a disadvantage than I thought before, lol.

Hecate
25-07-03, 14:57
Originally posted by Lucjan
-Tanks can be fast with their cannon out. But this requires overspecs on ATL and AGL on an insane level making such a tank much weaker then "normal" tanks. If you can't fight a speed tank, you can't aim - it is that simple. You will have the same problem with every fast pistol PE and every pure melee tank as well. Are we going to nerf pistol PEs and melee tanks too?

You want to say that you can run with a cannon, a pistol and a claw with the same speed? With a cannon i believe you cannot even jump from its weight.

Heavy-Tanks are HEAVY equiped (items on backpack and quickbelt) so should not be able to run as fast as melee tanks and pistol pes.

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 14:57
Originally posted by icarium
QD dont assume i am having a go at you you missed the point i was making. iirc it says in the manual, PEs are a general class and good for beginners (no i am not calling youa n00b :rolleyes: )
That manual, is insanely out of date.
Back when that manual was written mobs fell over if you breathed on them too hard, back when that manual was written, mining tools were available, back when that manual was written, liberator was commonly seen as the most powerful weapon in the game.
Things change, ReaKKtors view of the game has changed.
They want the classes to be balanced.




my point is if youhad your way and all classes were equal WTF would be the point in having different classes at all, just have one class, something like "generic character" with 80 inall stats? that would be boring as hell. also tanks arent difficlut to setup? hello? magical secret resist formula? and i appreciate thi affects all classes BUT tanks have low int and psi so resists are much more important than for other classes.
Magic formula? You don't have to be a genious to work out how to skill a tanks con, it requires some logical thought but there is no obscure "Magic hawr hawr 30+30 = 120" formula.
Equal? Hell Yes.
What's the differences?
PEs run around with Pistols and can take down people at close range but suck at range so have to get close.
Tanks run around with CS and own mid-close range.
Spies(and rifle PEs) run around with Rifles and own long range and can put up some resistance at close range.
APU owns in damage but has absolutely no defence.
PPU has no offence but inpenetrable defence.

Why is that boring?
If all classes and weaponry styles were equal at 100% (working differently from eachother) then only skill would decided which character wins.



also youkeep saying we all have this "i 4r3 a t4nk i ar3 l337" attitude, which is bs. i have a tank yes, i also have 2 Spies and an apu monk, and speaking in a NONE BIASED way i would expect a genetic mutant bred for war carrying a plasma cannon in powered armour able to beat a Normal human with a souped up MAC10 :)
Right............. I would expect such a beast which is insanely slow to forget how to reload too.
Don't compare to reality because even in reality, one bullet from a lil 9mm pistol can kill.
And .... most good tanks don't wear PA.

I'll also, say it again.
Gentanks weren't bred for war.
They were bred to fire a few shots and die.
in mass numbers.

Original monk
25-07-03, 14:59
kwantumdelta wrote:
"Jerako, you didn't hang out with me, you just caused shit that I had to deal with.
God I'm tired of people going "I'm QDs friend" and shit to score pioints it's pissing me off."


-If i have 5000 post can i have such an attitude also ?? im glad i dont know what this is going about, also glad im not a QD friend, when i say a non-positive QD thing do i get banned for the rest of my life then ? I hope not. In Belgium we call this an ego-tripper.
Sorry for offtopic, but i was a bit shocked by this line, if this is flaming then forgive me, someone had to say it, and yeah sumtimes i like interfering with peoples business, sumtimes

alig
25-07-03, 15:01
Originally posted by Hecate
You want to say that you can run with a cannon, a pistol and a claw with the same speed? With a cannon i believe you cannot even jump from its weight.

Heavy-Tanks are HEAVY equiped (items on backpack and quickbelt) so should not be able to run as fast as melee tanks and pistol pes.

And? PE's(lets call them soldiers....rifle/pistol ones) in RL like ur makin HEAVY weapons out to be in game......u _cant_ run and shoot with a rifle out....nor a pistol and hit like a PE does can u?:rolleyes: if tanks wanna overspec there run speed and suffer from resists/hp and t-c then fair enuf...let them do it....they might run fast but does that matter:confused: nope....if u can hit a rifle/pistol pe, monk, spy u can hit a tank no matter how fast there moving because all the other class's run ALOT faster with there gun out:D

Colt45
25-07-03, 15:03
You know it's one thing to make a shit class work right, but to tell someone to get skill when you're using an EZ class...

ARE YOU STUPID SON?

I don't give a shit what you think, If tanks were even easier to use before some patch, then omfg. Sit there and tell PE's and spies to get skill when you sit there with the AOL-class of NC.

really kid, you've got some nerve, or you're just plain dumb.
It's unanimous that a CS Tank is one of the easiest ways to pk.

Hecate
25-07-03, 15:04
Originally posted by alig
if tanks wanna overspec there run speed and suffer from resists/hp and t-c then fair enuf...let them do it....

So were not the Hybrids uber... we just had gimped tanks ?

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 15:07
Originally posted by Original monk



-If i have 5000 post can i have such an attitude also ?? im glad i dont know what this is going about, also glad im not a QD friend, when i say a non-positive QD thing do i get banned for the rest of my life then ? I hope not. In Belgium we call this an ego-tripper.
Sorry for offtopic, but i was a bit shocked by this line, if this is flaming then forgive me, someone had to say it, and yeah sumtimes i like interfering with peoples business, sumtimes

Nah, it's just that there are people like him on uranus (in game on my server where I have a good rep that I like to keep intact) or people who are worse (Scammers/PKers etc) who use my name to get peoples trust then fuck'em up.
Or people who use my name as a point of reference in terms of "Oh I know this shit yea I told QD this and he said yea" and stuff.
It begins to get on my nerves.
Not so much ego, just matter of fact.

Nothing to do with my post count.

If you wanna comment on my ego, get to know me first? rather than just reading a few of my posts and going "ohhhh asshole." I'm sure if I saw you posting on your nerfed PPU and someone else saying it should be nerfed more (which para should be) you'd bitch and whine.
So hush.




hecate - that attitude is around a lot, and even good tanks have used it as an excuse on occasion (although most of the good tanks who have regularly visited this forum don't do that much anymore........) *shrug* it starts to burn after a while.....

Lucjan
25-07-03, 15:08
Originally posted by Hecate
You want to say that you can run with a cannon, a pistol and a claw with the same speed? With a cannon i believe you cannot even jump from its weight.

Heavy-Tanks are HEAVY equiped (items on backpack and quickbelt) so should not be able to run as fast as melee tanks and pistol pes.

I didnt said that. Tanks can run fast with their cannon drawn. Fast. They can. If they overspec and make themself weak.
But even then, they are still a lot slower then avarage pistol PEs.

And to make it even more clear: these speed-tanks are very very slow compared to a melee tank. But they are fast compared to another ATL70/AGL70 cannon tanks.

alig
25-07-03, 15:14
Originally posted by Colt45
You know it's one thing to make a shit class work right, but to tell someone to get skill when you're using an EZ class...

ARE YOU STUPID SON?

I don't give a shit what you think, If tanks were even easier to use before some patch, then omfg. Sit there and tell PE's and spies to get skill when you sit there with the AOL-class of NC.

really kid, you've got some nerve, or you're just plain dumb.
It's unanimous that a CS Tank is one of the easiest ways to pk.

And that is pointed at me i take it :lol: http://66.227.101.70/contrib/geno/asshole2.gifim sick of all this "tanks are ub3r....they are unstoppable" bs that most of these 'anti-tank' ppl talk about....read my sig look wot class's i hav....i can tell u the tank isnt the easiest class to play....guess who is, the monkeh! followed by a capped tank(YES CAPPED TANK....CAPPED PPL ARE MENT TO BE HARD :rolleyes: )and the PE closely behind the tank....they are piss easy to lvl.....ive got a good idea how to set one up now but lacking on the gunz atm!:( so dont come the "uve got a nerve to say that!" with me pal:D ive been playin since November and i know the game well enuf to make my own decisions ty very much....and if he HAS never killed a CS tank with a capped monk...then YES he fucking sux cuz u can use cs at low rank anyway(low 50's)


Note to all// TANKS ARE THE FORKING FIGHTING CLASS B...T....W!!!!

Hecate
25-07-03, 15:16
Originally posted by Ste-X
tanks are fine, if meelee got a boost maybe tanks would have more skill to put into

Hybrid Tanks... nerf nerf nerf :p

Ok with the joke but yes i believe that melee needs boost. Can a melee tank PvP a Heavy Tank ? The posibilities are 50/50 ?

Original monk
25-07-03, 15:18
everytime theres some nagging on this forum about these class this or these class that; KK turns it all up side down and start hitting everyone with a nerfstick, my tank had nice 3 stars, a week later im nerfed, a week ago my psi had 3 stars and it got nerfed, i bet when my spy makes the 3 stars a week later there nerving spy's, its always sumthing :P balance ? yust give me back beta4, not like i didnt lost my cabinets also in retail so no prob fo me :angel:

Stigmata
25-07-03, 15:18
I want all classes (when setup, tooled up, and played to their 100%) to be equal...
I don't mind tanks 50% = PEs 75% as long as 100% = 100% to everyone else....



It is not meant to be like that, where did you get the idea all classes are ment to be equal ?

Surely you dont think a spy is ment to be equal to a tank ?
or a PE equal to a tank ?

sure played in the right way you should be able to stand your own, but hell your not supposed to be equal.

if that was the case there would be one class, all players equal lets all play CS, dull dull dull.

now if by equal you mean they can all do equally different important things in the game then yes i agree,

after all a spy is a spy, someone who tradeskills better than anyone else, can stealth around to maximun effect, drives all vehicles (and fly's) is an excellent marksman if that is his choosen path, can outrange all other classes.

the PE is a JOAT he can everything he could if wanted skill to use most non psi weapons even rares with the use of drugs, he can tradeskill (poke, hack, repair, construct, research, salvage o_O )
he can also (but not at the same time) use weapons to a decent level, has an average-good constituition, wear decent armor but not the best!

the monk he is the weak but intelligent species, he can use the powers of the mind to fight his battles, depending on his choosen path he can be agreesive, the biggest damage dealer in the game, yet his constituition is not high he has very good armor, if setup up right and teamed with a ppu is the most deadly killing machine in the game. The ppu should be indestuctable to a certain extent, if debuffed and subjected to multiple attacks will go down.

Lastly the tank, he has the best defence, armor and constituiton wise, he can deal out alot of damage in a short time, is very good in close fighting, his down falls are lack of intelligence and very poor psi abilities, he can only do one trade skill, repair, (like a field engineer in the army) he is the second best damage dealer and player correctly can anyone but a ppu.

This is how i see the game, and how i think it should be.

your idea od balance is different to mine, balance does not always mean who you can and can't own.

Andy

alig
25-07-03, 15:21
Originally posted by Hecate
Hybrid Tanks... nerf nerf nerf :p

Ok with the joke but yes i believe that melee needs boost. Can a melee tank PvP a Heavy Tank ? The posibilities are 50/50 ?

A melee tank isnt _that bad_ in pvp...its just....well....them little spells called "holy paralysis" amongst(errr....typoso_O )all the other freeze spells....these a melee dont shoot 300m:lol: if they removed HP(man.....*drools*) melee tanks would be a totally viable option for a decent pvp'er IMO!!!. I started as a melee tank and there hella fun to play compared to H-C tank but if u like to be froze and then run about like a headless chicken in pvp then u hav _no choice_ but to lom to H-C which kinda gets booooorrrin and is so common:(

Colt45
25-07-03, 15:21
No alig, I wasn't talking to you, i forgot to direct my post at...
STIGMATA

does that make you feel any better now? Don't be so self-conscious. Stop reading all those women's magazine's.

Ste-X
25-07-03, 15:24
you have no skills

Colt45
25-07-03, 15:26
yeah guy, I'm sure you can base that off your presumptuous interpretation of my 133t posting skills.

alig
25-07-03, 15:29
Originally posted by Colt45
No alig, I wasn't talking to you, i forgot to direct my post at...
STIGMATA

does that make you feel any better now? Don't be so self-conscious. Stop reading all those women's magazine's.

Sorry man...just i thought my post was kinda similar to that wot u said :o :angel:

Hecate
25-07-03, 15:35
Originally posted by alig
melee tanks would be a totally viable option for a decent pvp'er IMO!!!

i believe that melee weapons should ignore shelter/deflectors and do good damage to armors also. I would like to see melee tanks attacking enemy ppus and them to try to paralyse them so they can escape from the claws of death :)

Melee has other probs also... cannot attack air and need to go closer to the grim chaser to kill it. Heavy tank can hide and heal easyer from that chaser.

Original monk
25-07-03, 15:42
sorry for offtopic again LoL but :

kwantumdelta wrote:
"If you wanna comment on my ego, get to know me first? rather than just reading a few of my posts and going "ohhhh asshole." I'm sure if I saw you posting on your nerfed PPU and someone else saying it should be nerfed more (which para should be) you'd bitch and whine."

Ok, youre actually right on this one, i was yust shocked, thats why i wont mind other peeps business again soon :) instead of started flaming me and calling me the most retarded ass-maggot in the world ya have given me a reasonable clear explenation. Respect to ya and indeed this proves your ego is OK.

kwantumdelta wrote: hush

- yeah i will lay low now ;)

Peace

http://users.pandora.be/original/naamloos.bmp

Stigmata
25-07-03, 15:43
No alig, I wasn't talking to you, i forgot to direct my post at...
STIGMATA



Im not 100% certain what sparked that attack, but please dont call me kid and son coz the chances are you will not be much older than me if anything at all.

Could you re-direct me to the point i made which en-raged you to the point of calling me stupid ?

Btw i dont only play a tank, infact i very rarely use my tank, as anyone on saturn will tell you, i have a capped pe on pluto, i have a high level apu on saturn, a high level droner spy and pistol spy on saturn, so why you think you get the right to slag me off for having a tank is far beyond me.

Oh btw KID where in any of my posts did i say you or any other players had no skill ???
o_O o_O

Please do me the honour of pointing this out to me.

Doc Holliday
25-07-03, 15:43
Oh look another spam thread. *goes back to sleep

-=9mm=-
25-07-03, 15:44
no one complains before hybrid psi's got there nerfing. Tanks are meant to be "Designed" for pvp and they suffer heavily from the stamina reload thing. Also the max resist you can get for X ray is 5 which means if you want decent resist for x ray you gotta use quite a bit of your con points. Over all I think its hard to set up good defence using con and armour cause you have to take into consideration all the ammo types and the major damage apus can cause you. So I agree that a Tank is not the hardest class to play in pvp after you practice. But to have the correct CON setup and armour set is quite a challenge. Also I dont think CS is over powered as no one complained b4 and they havnt changed it in this patch. Tanks also have to have so much con because of the slowdown when u draw your cannons you cant doge or weave much because A) your slow and B) you will just drain stamina and you want that to last as long as possible.

anyway these are just my views.

\\Fényx//
25-07-03, 15:45
STOP POSTING IN THIS POINTLESS THREAD AND LET IT DIE, JUST BECAUSE HE CANT PVP LET HIM WHINE IN THE CORNER OF HIS ROOM, LEAVE HIM ALONE, LET HIM DROWN IN HIS OWN TEARS AND BODILY FLUIDS O_o

Ryuben
25-07-03, 15:46
omg AGGGGHHHHH o much hate, *ahem*

Ok i agree a tank with a CS will kill a APU, PE and SPY (all maxed, same player skill and with tooled up set-up's) on His own terms

that the important thing on the tanks terms if ur 5 foot away, heh a tank is a big thing with a nasty green swirly expect it to hurt.
None of this bs tanks are the fighthing class, thats the only thing a tank does thats jsut BS. i hae played all the chars and as each one i have killed every class with them, takes skill with my spy i wouldn't stand next to the tanmk with my 5 slot SH
o_O nooooooooo i would be just at the draw line with stealth 3 ready and takeing shots at him, let him see me watch him to to me then stealth and shoot him as he still runs to where he thinks i am, or if he is a chicken and runs for cover then i would try and take up a different ground.

As a PE i had a DAM nice set-up was takeing LESS damage from a cs than a tank :D had 2 stam boosters and 2 psi boosters in my Quick belt and it worked a well with that on i elt safe when i started to shoot from range and watch the tanks draw near. (and before u say any thing i killed fenix on my PE :D so he did have some skills )

the only char i had problems with on these 2 was thea apu monk
(didn't even both the hybrids and/or ppu's lol) as they had dam good range i admit they fizzeled a bit but they were the ones who always had more run against when PvP

as a monk i was apu, hybrid then PPU.

As APU i loved the fact i could kill ppl at range but it was before the tank cannon runspeed nerf so :( they was jsut running about and owning lol, then i lommed to hybrid as i wanted to be more of a challange, as i would jsut get nuked (before PP resistors and the apu + after 170 was know) found this fun..but i wanted more of a challenge. and found it ....boreing found the ammount of people asking for help or DMing me to lvl etc jsut...well got on my nerves.
So i went tank ( on my main account) and its been fun ish boreing but fun at times, and i do have some skills playing agaisnt other tanks i have beaten some of the top players on Pluto not THE best but a few of the high ones. so please before u come in here makeing a post of how CS tanks are un balanced think again, as MOST cs tanks have a MAX range of 200m and practically that range is really 100m as past that the green blobs miss up to 3/4 alot.

SO before u come in here and make my teeth ache again try playing to your characters advatages not to the others.

( i spent almost 3 mins watching a certain hybrid monk on the hill near Cycrow lab waiting for his shields to go down before rushing a group of 8 people jut to scare the shit out of him, got him down to about 1/3 rd HP i think before i leapt off tyhe hill and died on landing :D )

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 15:46
Originally posted by stigmata
It is not meant to be like that, where did you get the idea all classes are ment to be equal ?
Sad.


Surely you dont think a spy is ment to be equal to a tank ?
or a PE equal to a tank ?
Yes, I do, in their own ways and styles, and so do most people who enjoy fighting to push their _SKILL_ to the edge.



sure played in the right way you should be able to stand your own, but hell your not supposed to be equal.
hell yes we are.



if that was the case there would be one class, all players equal lets all play CS, dull dull dull.
Again, this is not true, because the weapons are used in different styles.
If you were playing CS you'd fall over after a few shots from a pistol, but fall over in less shots from a rifle and that would be the end of it, all classes would have all weapons available to them and fuck all else would be worth it.
Not what I want.
I want my liberator rof to make up the possible difference as well as _actually_ having better aiming, and having better movement.
as it stands, this just ain't working out.



now if by equal you mean they can all do equally different important things in the game then yes i agree,
on a variation to a theme.



after all a spy is a spy, someone who tradeskills better than anyone else, can stealth around to maximun effect, drives all vehicles (and fly's) is an excellent marksman if that is his choosen path, can outrange all other classes.
At range, the spy should own everyone unless they run for cover or close the gap.



the PE is a JOAT he can everything he could if wanted skill to use most non psi weapons even rares with the use of drugs, he can tradeskill (poke, hack, repair, construct, research, salvage o_O )
he can also (but not at the same time) use weapons to a decent level, has an average-good constituition, wear decent armor but not the best!
the PE should have drawn on all statlines combining them to make him capable of killing a tank at short range.
Remember cannons are not meant to be point-blank-range combat weapons. IRL or ingame.



the monk he is the weak but intelligent species, he can use the powers of the mind to fight his battles, depending on his choosen path he can be agreesive, the biggest damage dealer in the game, yet his constituition is not high he has very good armor, if setup up right and teamed with a ppu is the most deadly killing machine in the game. The ppu should be indestuctable to a certain extent, if debuffed and subjected to multiple attacks will go down.
APU should be able to kill very quickly but also risk near-to-immediate death from any attacker.
PPU should be able to do _no_ damage and yet have pretty much inpenetrable defence.



Lastly the tank, he has the best defence, armor and constituiton wise, he can deal out alot of damage in a short time, is very good in close fighting, his down falls are lack of intelligence and very poor psi abilities, he can only do one trade skill, repair, (like a field engineer in the army) he is the second best damage dealer and player correctly can anyone but a ppu.
The tank should own the immediately-before-point-blank-range field. The Tank is the grunt, should be simple to play, big dumb slow strong bastard that hits things and makes them fall over.
dumb slow, bulky people can be outmanuvered, tanks should be weaker at >15m, you don't see someone trying to hit someone with a howlitzer at >15m, now do you?
This is my point.

in my last game, we had armor, shields, weapon capacity, turning speed and max speed to balance the ships.
Fast ships would have low armor and low shields but would be impossible to hit at close range if played well and would therefore be able to shoot other ships from behind killing them.
All ships (...pretty much) would use the same weapony, but missile capacity and primary gunbanks were different.
Slow ships would often have lots of missiles and heavy shields and high armor, these ships would own the long range if played well but if someone got in close, that was it, they were dead, pretty much.
This is how I see neocron should be, Pistols own the immediate short range, cannons own mid-range, rifles long range, drones extreme range, APU does well in mid to long and okay in short because of his high damage output.

Pistol PEs primary defence should be manuvering and their attack should be weaker but at close range tanks should not be able to maintain a weapon lock.
CS does.
as the game currently stands;
In no situation 1on1 should a tank really lose a lock on another player with CS unless that player stealths, this is why CS is unbalanced.



This is how i see the game, and how i think it should be.

Well I don't agree with it, and I will continue to make my points as people challenge them.


your idea od balance is different to mine, balance does not always mean who you can and can't own.
Tradeskillers are tradeskillers.
Fighters are fighters.
All classes should have their mix of both, or if you roll a tank you should expect combat only.
mixing a trade skill into your combat setup should weaken that setup and take you away from the 100% class performance.

However if all classes are 100% combat orientated in their setup, they should be equal.
Just because my PE "Can" tradeskill, doesn't mean he wants to, or does.
I chose Pistol PE because it has far more style than a CS Tank.

Why do I have IMP if I believe specialised fully combat orientated characters should be equal?
Because they're not, and more often than not it'll be the pistol pe that dies.
So I have imp to stop waiting around for hours for a poker.
I hate having 80 IMP I wish I could get rid of it, but until the classes are balanced I cannot operate reliably without it.

Colt45
25-07-03, 15:47
Originally posted by \\Fényx//
STOP POSTING IN THIS POINTLESS THREAD AND LET IT DIE, JUST BECAUSE HE CANT PVP LET HIM WHINE IN THE CORNER OF HIS ROOM, LEAVE HIM ALONE, LET HIM DROWN IN HIS OWN TEARS AND BODILY FLUIDS O_o

lol, so says the cs tank

You are the EZ $$ stfu, GG

:lol:

Stigmata
25-07-03, 15:58
KID (colt) stop being a lamer who has nothing better to do than ask for nerfs, its sad :(

kthxFuckoffanddie.

er.. what was the next thing i wanted to say.......


the PE should have drawn on all statlines combining them to make him capable of killing a tank at short range.
Remember cannons are not meant to be point-blank-range combat weapons. IRL or ingame.

that is your opinion, i dont agree, and debating on here is not gonna change either of us. But where do you draw your information that cannons are not meant to point0blank-range combat ingame ? IRL yes i accept this, but how many cannons exist in real life that can be carried around ?

you have rocket launchers if you class them as a cannon, ingame they are inaccurate as fuck.

cant really think of many more, + this is a game and if a tank was supposed to stay still the game would die, alot of people are not willing to play different classes, pluto would die coz none of the tanks would wanna re-roll.

And finally the CS (plasma cannon) is just a larger version of the EPR plasma rifle) it fires 4 shot bursts, the rifle fires 3.

now as you seem to like drawing your idea's from RL situations and equipment, how many cannons IRL have a max range of 300metres ? not many, most cannons have a range of like a mile or something.

Andy

\\Fényx//
25-07-03, 16:00
Originally posted by Colt45
lol, so says the cs tank

You are the EZ $$ stfu, GG

:lol:

So says the guy that has a capped pistol PE, near capped droner, CS tank, Melee/Pistol tank, a PPU, 2x rifle Spies on saturn plus various rifle/pistol PE's on saturn and uranus O_o

Its not like im a 1 char man, i have 3 accounts.
/65 tank on pluto
/49 droner with 106 DEX and TL 130base CST
/12 :D Melee/pistol tank

I rarely play my tank... Only time I log it is whenever theres a ig fight brewing :) now only start commenting on me when you know me. and in future get your head out yer ass next time you start typing...

just because someone with a cannon is outdamaging your pistol... of a tanks taking more damage than your spy... THINK DAMN IT ! hes built like a brick shithouse and has a fricken cannon on his shoulder that halves his speed. The Gentank is made for fighting, has the best resists, best armours and best weapons for fighting, but has fuck all PSI and INT which means they can barely heal themselves and is thick as shit O_o

The spy, smart, rifle/pistols expert. the drivers and housewives of the game. soft as shit in a fight

Psi's, weak, but have powerful minds (and Ego's in most cases) have power full spels in either offence or defence but must choose one or the other. I personally class the PSI as a high power support class.

The PE. JOAT, can do a bit of everything but will not be the best at anything. can use melee/HC/PC/RC/PPU. The class in my opinion if you just want to do PvM because your pretty self reliant.

Anyway, i better get back to work and fix some PC's O_o

This thread in my opinion is t3h useless. =|

Colt45
25-07-03, 16:04
okay, so i jumped a gun, just an inch... sorry.
(kk fenix, did it that time too...)
"just coz you are too shit to use tactics against a tank, hell its not
fucking hard"
-Right there "...too shit" sounds a lot like no skill to me.

as a spy/pe rifleman you have the range advantage
-Have you ever been killed by someone at range?

as a pe you have so much fucking speed you can run circles round most average tanks.
-Not now. Maybe in ancient times when freezer pistols worked.

Have you noticed that in an op war all the clan are turning up with 2 tanks and 17 monks ?
-I still see a majority of CS tanks down in PP

if your fucked up idea was introduced, it would be the end of tanks and the end of 1 v's 1 skilled dueling.
-Why? because someone is unable to adapt to a change in environment? That, is a lack of skill.

Skill should be about adapting your style to compensate for the changes in another's. Isn't that what survival's all about?

(do you need examples of this? Tank= hvy damage and defence.
offsets would be lack of mobility and aim. I've seen this in every game with A "heavy" type class. Why not here?)

if tank's had their aiming and movement nerfed everything would be balanced then.

PE's would have their mobility.
Spies would have their range (easier to hit slower targets)

If tanks were nerfed and you couldn't adapt, then who's got no skill now eh?

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 16:05
Stig, we disagree fine, but more people agree with full balance in combat than agree with your terms.......

Stigmata
25-07-03, 16:15
"just coz you are too shit to use tactics against a tank, hell its not
fucking hard"
-Right there "...too shit" sounds a lot like no skill to me.


tactics depending on class,

like an apu in a position providing cover and has a 300metre range on a HL (that hurts like fuck)
a rifle man way up the hillside with the abiltiy to stealth if i get close to them
these are examples of tactics to me, im not saying "OI i pwned joo get som skilz"


as a spy/pe rifleman you have the range advantage
-Have you ever been killed by someone at range?

i take it you dont have a silent hunter and haven't come across one ? 4 or 5 shots from this and your dead, even worse if you cant find the fucker and cant heal.


Have you noticed that in an op war all the clan are turning up with 2 tanks and 17 monks ?
-I still see a majority of CS tanks down in PP

what server are you on? when ever i run through from my apt i never see many tnaks their ? and get yourself to some op wars then you will see the serious lack of tanks their.


if your fucked up idea was introduced, it would be the end of tanks and the end of 1 v's 1 skilled dueling.
-Why? because someone is unable to adapt to a change in environment? That, is a lack of skill.

the idea i refer to was when someone suggested that tanks should not be able to move when they are firing a weapon, you obviously where not around or did not have a tank when they brought that in with a patch, then the emergency patch was released to sort it out.


Stig, we disagree fine, but more people agree with full balance in combat than agree with your terms.......

this is my opinion and i seriously doubt the majority of people want all classes to be equal as you have stated

Andy

\\Fényx//
25-07-03, 16:29
Too much flaming plus its a pointless thread = Closage.

N.


^^ :D ^^

alig
25-07-03, 16:40
tanks = teh fighters of nc although they aint cuz all other class's are/can be just as good IMHO;) quit the "cs pwnz all" crap and live with it ffs! how long has the cs been here now and how long ago did it get nerfed.....quite simple, it DIDNT/HASNT ever been nerfed because tanks are ment to hav big forking weapons and hit u 'ard....its the idea ffs! imagine a spy kicking ass.....like mega kicking ass, unstoppable, then u can RANT on about "being overpowered"

hinch
25-07-03, 16:42
Originally posted by stigmata

this is my opinion and i seriously doubt the majority of people want all classes to be equal as you have stated


your right the majority of people want hybrids back as viable classes but instead all you tanks screamed nerf now its your turn to get one little thing changed and you bitch worse than us that have spent 9 months tweaking something underpowered and making it overpowered :wtf:

Colt45
25-07-03, 16:43
Nope, haven't been hit by a SH.
Nor was I around when tanks actually did have to stand and fire.
I've been to op's and i've seen a majority of Monks at times.


I still think that the facility of Tank's really needs to be looked at.
It's not that the other classes are weak, just that they aren't as easy to use as tanks are.


Don't think theres much flames anymore, it seems like this is a big issue. Look at how many posts there are. Don't try to change the subject just cuz you don't want it to happen :p

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 16:53
Ok im not even comment on anything in this gay bullshit post except for one thing...


That "tanks can turn and all their shots still hit you" is not an ub4r adverse effect that only the CS has..its a flaw in the game mechanics and the way aim works -.-

the bitching about a tanks runspeed is total crap aswell...the only tanks who run faster than people with a cannon out have WAY WAY over specced their ATL and are buffed..most likly drugging aswell...having a really fast ass computer helps as well seeing how FPS effects how fast it appears that you run to other people.

kira wolf
25-07-03, 17:35
Sigh. I gotta ask you people: Where is it gonna end?

Its been hybreds for a long time.. they got their nerf, now move on to the next class?

"HOLY shit! A tank kicked my no-skill ass! Gotta be nerfed! Im gonna post on the forums! HAX OMG KOS!!!11oneoneoneone"

Please. Bunch of whining bitches. If you don't like it, make a tank, and reip the benefits of uberness.

Personally I think tanks are boring. I leveled one for a while and deleted him. Put me to sleep. So I'm not posting a reply to prevent a "tank nerf".

Its as it should be now. Tanks are the strongest class in the game. Look at it this way: what's easier to kill a tank or a pre-patch hybred?

Think about it.

Kira

Nasher
25-07-03, 17:41
CSs are only uber at close range combat, which is what the tank if for. So it should stay as it is.

Also they dont have the advantage of being able to do anything other than combat like the other classes can, so they rely a lot on the other classes.

icarium
25-07-03, 17:47
i was gonna post something scathing but then i thought wtf lol. tanks arent overpowered, all these nerf cries are just a symptom of lack of skills. if youwant to play a game where evryone has the same skills go play CS, no wait a minute you are the type of people who all cried "nerf the awm" . whiners are whiners and sadly they are everywhere. youwanna be an all rounder be a pe, you wanna fight toe to toe be an APU or Tank if you want to snipe and sneak about be a spy. simple. Or alternatively leave your LE in like me and level in peace :)

Dont cry nerf just because someone shot you, k?

hinch
25-07-03, 17:53
Originally posted by kira wolf
Its as it should be now. Tanks are the strongest class in the game. Look at it this way: what's easier to kill a tank or a pre-patch hybred?


pre patch hybrid IF you know how to do it only IF

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 18:22
QD, I agree with you that all classes should be balanced.
Balance/Balanced:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=balanced

Best one I see for this situation is:


To compare by or as if by turning over in the mind: balanced the pros and cons before making a choice.
To bring into or maintain in a state of equilibrium.

I do not agree classes should be equal. If it was to be equal then all classes would take the same damage, have the same range rof, basically all classes the same, at least thats what I understand by the definition of "equal".

Equal:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=equal


Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.
Mathematics. Being the same or identical to in value.

To attain balance it should be tested in much different situations and not just dueling. The fact that hi tech pistol PE's can steath run and heal quickly then come back and fight gives PE's a big advantage over tanks. Your idea though, for heavy combat tanks rectile to completely open when they aren't locked could be a way bigger nerf to tanks than you think. If you havn't yet, play a capped tank then see how fast it takes for the rectile to close from being fully open. Then imagine how bad that would be in PvP. If it fully opened everytime your rectile isn't on your target, because tanks, I dont care who you are lose there target very often. The targeting rectile should be fixed, because if you had did some testing with it and paid attention to it while PvPing then you would realize it is very much bugged. Sometimes it doesnt open at all and sometimes it just opens completely under the same circumstances. That should be fixed and it would'nt be a nerf either.

Selendor
25-07-03, 18:29
Personally, I don't agree that Tanks need nerfing necessarily.

However, considering how many Tanks are using Cursed Souls, it could be fair to say that other tank weapons should be made more viable in PvP, or the CS should be made to have the highest requirements to use.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 18:32
Originally posted by Selendor
Personally, I don't agree that Tanks need nerfing necessarily.

However, considering how many Tanks are using Cursed Souls, it could be fair to say that other tank weapons should be made more viable in PvP, or the CS should be made to have the highest requirements to use.

If it was to have the highest requirement, that would nerf the CS, in all stats because high reqs = harder to cap and atm with current reqs CS cannot be capped in all stats.

Hecate
25-07-03, 18:32
If you have speed you dont have endurance. When you are heavy loaded you have no good endurance. Would be nice if this was at this game also. Soldiers can run good distances with their armor and backpack cause of their endurance, not their speed. Points in Agility should cut point from Stamina/Endurance and the oposite. And heavy weapons must need good endurance skill points.

For now i can say that if you are a tank and have big prob with apu monk cut some agility and raise some resistances. After that only we can test if apu/hybrid is overpowered.

btw leave the CS alone. Is not the weapon powerfull here but the class. A rifle spy need to be able to run away from a tank. Not to stand more than 2 cs shots. His defence is his speed not his armor and resists. But tanks have all the resists and armor and speed for their defence.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 18:47
Originally posted by Hecate
If you have speed you dont have endurance. When you are heavy loaded you have no good endurance. Would be nice if this was at this game also. Soldiers can run good distances with their armor and backpack cause of their endurance, not their speed. Points in Agility should cut point from Stamina/Endurance and the oposite. And heavy weapons must need good endurance skill points.

For now i can say that if you are a tank and have big prob with apu monk cut some agility and raise some resistances. After that only we can test if apu/hybrid is overpowered.

btw leave the CS alone. Is not the weapon powerfull here but the class. A rifle spy need to be able to run away from a tank. Not to stand more than 2 cs shots. His defence is his speed not his armor and resists. But tanks have them all the resists and the armor and the speed for their defence.

I completely disagree with this and here is why. Currently any good PvP tank does not have any natural skill points into endurance because we need all the resist we can get while still being able to run fast with cannon out. Also you said a rifle spy needs to be able to run away from a tank.. if he can stealth then he can run away, also rifle spies can own a tank from a distance and the tank not know where the hell its coming from. A pistol spy is unbalaced though but the pistol spy could if speced into hi tech stealth away if he has good enough reflexes. Keep in mind also, when a PE is setup right, I have said it before and I'll say it again, they can take alot more hits than a tank can. It seems as if people just hide in a corner and bitch about things before finding out what other people can do with there own setups.

Hecate
25-07-03, 18:59
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
I completely disagree with this and here is why. Currently any good PvP tank does not have any natural skill points into endurance because we need all the resist we can get while still being able to run fast with cannon out.

Err that is my point... been able to run fast with cannon out...
I dont want tanks been on floor while shooting but not to be able to follow and attack a pe with the weapon out while the pe is running away. Tanks good point is his str. Have you seen any bodybuilder type guy run as demon ?


Keep in mind also, when a PE is setup right, I have said it before and I'll say it again, they can take alot more hits than a tank can

You want to say that a pe with not so good armor and con is better than a tank ? Then the tank's con setup is wrong...

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 19:07
Originally posted by Hecate
Err that is my point... been able to run fast with cannon out...
I dont want tanks been on floor while shooting but not to be able to follow and attack a pe whith the weapon out while the pe is running away. Tanks good point is his str. Have you seen any bodybuilder type guy run as demon ?

You obviously know nothing about balancing this game. Tanks runspeed is fine. If I were to attack a PE while the PE was running away, it would drain my stamina so fast I would be out of boosters very quickly and its hard to aim while running at a target that is running from you and overtop of that a PE can stealth if speced in hi tech. The tank is a genetically engineered fighter, so dont go comparing a tank to a "bodybuilder type guy". Tanks NEED speed to be good in PvP.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 19:12
Originally posted by Hecate
You want to say that a pe with not so good armor and con is better than a tank ? Then the tank's con setup is wrong...


Keep in mind, PE's also have PSI, its not just about con and armor.

Sorry for the double post.

Hecate
25-07-03, 19:25
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Tanks NEED speed to be good in PvP.

Yes and a spy need the speed also so he can keep his distance if he wants to be good at PvP.

...

tank vs apu-monk. Tank here needs his speed to go away from the monk or to go close and kill him before the monk kill the tank ? (monks have small con=athletics and dex=agility)

tank vs ppu-monk ? ok lets forget this, noone wins :p

tank vs pe. ??? here realy dont know

heavy tank vs melee tank. dont know the answer here. but not alot melee tanks on game... all i knew lomed to heavy.

tank against a spy. how many times have you die from a spy than from any other class? and how many times you have kill the spy before gets you?



Keep in mind, PE's also have PSI, its not just about con and armor. Yes and their spells are the blessed.

PS: i am only talking about speed. no any other factor like who has the best weapon. Tanks have small range so is fair to have big damage.

Psycho_Soldier
25-07-03, 19:38
Originally posted by Hecate
Yes and a spy need the speed also so he can keep his distance if he wants to be good at PvP.

...

tank vs apu-monk. Tank here needs his speed to go away from the monk or to go close and kill him before the monk kill the tank ? (monks have small con=athletics and dex=agility)

tank vs ppu-monk ? ok lets forget this, noone wins :p

tank vs pe. ??? here realy dont know

heavy tank vs melee tank. dont know the answer here. but not alot melee tanks on game... all i knew lomed to heavy.

tank against a spy. how many times have you die from a spy than from any other class? and how many times you have kill the spy before gets you?


Yes and their spells are the blessed.

PS: i am only talking about speed. no any other factor like who has the best weapon. Tanks have small range so is fair to have big damage.

Spies dont NEED speed. Spies need range if they are rifle users that does not always mean speed, because they can just stealth to get away and relocate to another spot to have the range advantage. You also point out that tanks have small range, this is for the most part true, which is why we NEED speed so we can actually try and keep up and hit something.

Breschau
25-07-03, 19:42
Just a few comments for the folks that keep shouting JOAT at PEs:

- Spies make better JOATs than PEs do. They get more points to put into the various 'activities' in the game, at least the ones that might be vaguely worthwhile alongside each other.

The places PEs get more points don't actually count towards much in the way of activities - besides combat, all activities are in int or dex. Unless you count buffing, in which case spies get the same boosters and heals, and are just lacking in shielding (for which nobody is gonna look for a PE when there's monks around). Melee and Heavy on a PE is a novelty as they'll be far more effective with even base requirements in Pistol or Rifle.

That isn't meant as a bash or 'nerf them!' on spies btw, just pointing out that, imo, spies make better JOATs in the sense of activities available in the game.

- Neocron punishes people who play JOATs. They'll get very little work for their tradeskills as the only people with much use for tl 50 research, tl 30 repair, or tl 80 construct are newbies. On top of this, most implants boosting the 'trades' will diminish abilities in others, making them a bit of a waste of time for a JOAT to try and use.

Almost anyone playing a half-way successful PE is specialising. Whether it's putting all int points into a single skill, or focussing all dex into p-c or r-c (bar some agility), you really won't find many with a bit of everything.

- PE's *do* draw strength from all their statlines. This however is not the same as Jack of All Trades. It doesn't mean they do a little of everything. It means they draw strength from various aspects of character. But they still have to specialise to be effective, just like everybody else. Look at any tank, monk or spy and chances are they perform just about as many 'trades' as any PE.


I realise this is a thread about gentanks, but I really get tired of the 'PE's are JOATS ffs omg!' argument.

And fwiw, I am making a PE that genuinely is a JOAT. Putting points into hack, research, construct, weapon lore, maybe implant, melee, h-c, r-c, repair, recycle, vehicle use, and ppu spells. So far he's pretty pointless :p

REMUS
25-07-03, 19:42
tanks dont need anything done to them
monks need tweeking
pe's need tweaking
spys need something like mechwarrior suits :p

Hecate
25-07-03, 20:32
Originally posted by REMUS
spys need something like mechwarrior suits :p

As a spy i prefer that Tank armor :)
No i dont mean PA... i mean a tank defending you :)

Ryuben
25-07-03, 21:24
Originally posted by Hecate
As a spy i prefer that Tank armor :)
No i dont mean PA... i mean a tank defending you :)


after all this is a team game ;) :)

OTIS
25-07-03, 21:29
This is becoming the s00pidest thread ever. I have a -LOWTECH- rifle PE friend that can pwn(or get pretty damned close b4 i kill him) my capped tank with a 0,yes thats ZERO, slotted pain easer. Now i want u all to stfu about PE's or anyother class has no chance vs a tank...that is pure BULLSHIT. Its how skilled PvP u are and how your good resist/armor setup is. That same PE friend can take ~60-70 from 4 rounds of a CS. A helluvalot better then most high lvl (sometimes capped) tanks ive seen. This isnt a FPS where u go around and shoot someone in the head once and they are dead. Its RPG where the setup of your char is the thing that counts, whether or not your over powered by a stronger class. I my self have witnessed on plenty occasions 2 chevron'd PE's tanking on one and 2 star tanks. The PE's "strong" point is his ability to run fast and aim fast at a medium - far distance and still hit his target.

My opinion on this thread -------->o_O O_o :wtf: o_O O_o :wtf:

PS look at my sig i have an almost capped PE and pistols at that :D

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 21:45
Originally posted by Lucjan
And here goes the same old shit again...

Finding "I got owned"....found.
Finding "I have no idea about how the game works"...found.
Finding "Stupid story descriptions to back up balancing issues"...found.

Let me enlighten the n00bs in this thread about some things concerning the GenTank.

-It is the basic warrior class. All other classes should be balanced based on it. If a class is too weak, that class needs a boosts. You never screw around with the base class when it finally got almost perfectly balanced after many many months.

-Tanks are fast when not holding a cannon.

-Tanks can be fast with their cannon out. But this requires overspecs on ATL and AGL on an insane level making such a tank much weaker then "normal" tanks. If you can't fight a speed tank, you can't aim - it is that simple. You will have the same problem with every fast pistol PE and every pure melee tank as well. Are we going to nerf pistol PEs and melee tanks too?

-Cursed Soul and Pain Easer are probably the best balanced weapons in the game. Don't even think about changing them.

-Tanks aim slow. They have no way unlike other classes and weapon types to improve their aim. That is the reason you see CS tanks fighting on melee range. Some steps back, and the CS gets slow to aim and very inaccurate. You don't want to stay close to a CS tank unless you are one yourself.

-Some problems within the aim mechanic. Yes there are some at least on all plasma burst weapons. The rectile lock does sometimes behave somehow strange.

-Tanks are not easy nor hard to skill. All classes are skilled on the same system. If you know how it works, there is no difference in skilling a tank or a spy. If you don't know the class you want to skill, you won't do it properly.

-Tanks don't have uber armor and PA doesnt provide a god mode. Actually monks have the best armor and a PA does more harm then good to a tank on most decent setups.

When it comes to PvP, all classes skilled on pure combat should be equal. They should differ in the way how to fight. A sniper spy with stealth is a great example how it works. Sniping from distance, stealth and relocate is how he fights. He can beat a tank with a SH when fully dedicated to combat and in proper position with ease. He fights a tank face to face, he dies.


this is a masterpeice....I have to ask are you a tank? or just have enough common sense to realise just what goes into making an ub4r PvP tank?

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 21:55
Originally posted by bd*
How about this then. The only population of DoY was Monks, PEs and Spys, im not actually sure if there were Monks.

Tanks were created in Neocron by the Monks to defeat DoY. It took thousands and thousands of tanks to defeat the city made up of purely of Monks/Spys/Pes... as QD said they won through sheer numbers.

Does this mean that Monks/Spys/Pes should actually be the uber ones and be able to solo 3 or 4 tanks at a time?

Actually they were fighting the Warbots produced in DoY not the actual citizens :) Does that mean boost the hell out of Warbots so they can kill 5 capped tanks? :lol:

I take that back..all those tanks died way too fast in a war to have the time to gain much XP ;)

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 22:27
......You have got to be kidding me -_-

Sleawer
25-07-03, 22:50
Why you guys use the history to balance the classes? The history is to roleplay, and anyway no one does it these days, so why you bring it now?

me things in convenience.

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 23:07
I'm not using history..infact im trying to state that using the history is pointless....basing ANYTHING on the manuel is pointless..go read it and tell me how much of it applies to the game :\..The game should form the Manuel..not visa versa.

But on the other hand..Roleplay does effect balance..take Tanks for example( :lol: ) They are in both storyline and roleplay features the born fighters..genetically engineered killing machines..yet people bitch about them being good...

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 23:12
Then why the hell are you trying to tell me PE = JOAT foo'?

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 23:16
Because that is not only in the manuel or storyline..thats the intention KK has had with them from the begining...if they hadnt it would have a standard charactor setup like the other 3 classes.

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 23:21
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
Because that is not only in the manuel or storyline..thats the intention KK has had with them from the begining...if they hadnt it would have a standard charactor setup like the other 3 classes.

Then why did they lower the SA Reqs eh? ;)
You're losing it.

Crono
25-07-03, 23:33
lol, i still dont get it, face to face, in a locked room with the same player skill and 2 caped characters, a tank should beat a pistol PE.

why else be a tank, fighting is all they are meant to do. its why they use weapons 5 times the size of everyone else. though tanks shouldnt win out right, that was just face to face, other classes should be able to kill a tank in other ways. the sniper refel should prob be boosted, but if they did u would have assholes left and right killing off players weakened by mobs in warzones. u can see that happeening. but they should be boosted if its a head shot.

an APU with distance can rock a tank.

but fighting is ALL a tank and a APU are good at. a PE or spy (with a gun in hand, drones should be more powerfull, but easier to lock on to) should not be able to have weapons that do near the same dmg as a tank, and espically not a non high tech weapon like the lib to be boosted. if they boost it, it should be T-C based like the gat cannon.


i dont get why so many people who pick the PE class (the class that was made to be almost self reliant, but not the best at anything) want it to now be able to rival the pure fighting classes in a Face to Face fight. (they should have other ways to kill, like the spys should have more drone like weapons, and more remote weapons)

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 23:37
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Then why did they lower the SA Reqs eh? ;)
You're losing it.

Because they didnt want them to feel left out..SA doesnt make you much better..all it really does is allow you to get some RC/PC and WEP instead of using a moto3 for that 5 DEX.

QuantumDelta
25-07-03, 23:49
My setups haven't been as n00bish to use Moto/extra chips for months.

SigmaDraconis
25-07-03, 23:58
I know..you've mentioned that before..

Either way what im saying is SA doesnt make you ub4r just for having it.probably doesnt even help that much with your setup.

so KK Giving Pe's an SA doesnt mean that they want Pe's to be great and godly...it just means they dont want them to feel left out...from my perspective..wether it was good or not it woulda kinda piss me off if i was the only class who couldnt use an Mc5 chip...

its like red PA..everyone with 2 cents knows it shitty..but still want to be able to use it :)

QuantumDelta
26-07-03, 00:01
My current setup could use the MC5 Chip without nerfing, gimping, or any sort or real damage.
It's just that now I can use a slightly different setup..........*cackles*

oh'n'FYI.
You're correct, even for the PE. The only chip that gave us any real major benefit from MC5, was DS -_-

SigmaDraconis
26-07-03, 00:08
@QD backbone/ballistic3+2/SF to get 95 DEX?

And i should add this....

For the people wanting to nerf Tanks drastically..I'm sure all the PPU monks are going to throw a party in your favor..after all you just eliminated one of the best leveling partners they have next to an APU..

QuantumDelta
26-07-03, 00:16
Keep trying on the imps you might get there eventually.


re PPUs:
Tanks can't match APUs - Tanks can't even come remotely close.
Keep trying :)

SigmaDraconis
26-07-03, 00:18
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis


best leveling partners they have next to an APU..

I really do hate quoting myself

Spoon
26-07-03, 00:21
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
re PPUs:
Tanks can't match APUs - Tanks can't even come remotely close.
Keep trying :)

In damage or rank?

QuantumDelta
26-07-03, 00:25
Originally posted by Spoon
In damage or rank?
EXP :)

Sleawer
26-07-03, 00:27
Originally posted by Spoon

In damage or rank?

Supposedly in "best partners to ppu's".

*edit: oh well, to late I guess

**edit: oh great, I dont know what i touched now, I cant see the message of edited posts...

Last edited by Sleawer in xx:xx

wonder why, help icon doesnt say anything about it.

***edit: oh, i can see now

SigmaDraconis
26-07-03, 00:35
XP only because of the rate at which they kill..a tanks chronic 10-20 ranks lower then APU also helps with that gaining more XP but at a slower rate...

In some situation the tanks indipendant survivability makes him a better parter....try taking on 4 grims with an APU :\ if you survive it you have oen damn good PPU and he was working his ass overtime.

I cant use that scale anymore tho..they nerfed shelters :(

bubby
26-07-03, 05:10
Please close this thread as i didnt want it to go this far, i started it to get some interest but its getting out of hand, thanks for all your great input and flames.


BUBBY

Hecate
26-07-03, 14:49
Originally posted by Lucjan
-It is the basic warrior class. All other classes should be balanced based on it. If a class is too weak, that class needs a boosts. You never screw around with the base class when it finally got almost perfectly balanced after many many months.


The basic warrior class is the PE. Tank is the Extreme warrior class. If something should be the center and all others balanced to that, then that should be the PE. How can you balance a tradeskiller on a tank ? Tank is the opposite of spy almost.

Example:
if you have a kind of balance with classes... and you nerf 2 of them by 1/3 on defence then automaticly your balanced base class, the tank, gained 1/3 on defence. There is no diference if you nerf one class or raise the other.

bubby
26-07-03, 16:28
are starting to see that this was a major change not just a bitty nerf

SigmaDraconis
26-07-03, 19:46
Originally posted by Hecate
How can you balance a tradeskiller on a tank ? Tank is the opposite of spy almost.

You just answered your own question there m8..Tradeskills and hardcore PvP are opposite ends of the spectrum, Spy and Tank are opposite ends of the spectrum...the PE is the middle ground being the _average_ class does not make it the base class..

And the way KK does balancing...yes there is a big diff between raising one class and lowering another...the Tank is balanced
leave it cuz when they start fuckin with it you will be sorry..it will be nerfed to hell or boosted to hell..Only class i feel needs adjusted is the Spy...an average skill PE should be a challenge for a same skilled tank..which it is..a Spy should be the same degree of challenge for a Pe..which it isnt even close to.

bubby
26-07-03, 19:50
You have to be a tank the way you talk, "DONT NERF TANKS OR YOU WILL BE SORRY" thats crap, Well i asked the mods to close this cause it aint getting anyone anywhere. LONG LIVE TANKOCRON.

Psycho_Soldier
26-07-03, 19:52
Bubby, only reason why you say it isn't getting anywhere because its actually a good debate instead of a one sided "OMFG NERF THE TANKS" thread. Mods should not close this thread, but they will since you are the thread starter.

bubby
26-07-03, 19:57
Use max damage spells and be uber in their melee or cannons or rifles and still use heals and stuff, if you have high level combat you should also be forced not to be able to use the psi skills, it s a great point, but if you can use the psi heals and stuff you TOO should have 30 percent reduction inyour ability to do damage, ITS ONLY FAIR

bubby
26-07-03, 19:57
Use max damage spells and be uber in their melee or cannons or rifles and still use heals and stuff, if you have high level combat you should also be forced not to be able to use the psi skills, it s a great point, but if you can use the psi heals and stuff you TOO should have 30 percent reduction inyour ability to do damage, ITS ONLY FAIR

SigmaDraconis
26-07-03, 20:03
1)what max damage spell can a tank get?

2)Tanks get the 30% APU/PPU penalty aswell...then again we can only use the TL3 heal so we go pure PPU anyway. The reason tanks arent subject to the 30% hit is because we dont have the capability to add godly sheilds and heals to our aresenal of offensive abilities the same way a Hybrid did.

3) Dont double post.

4) You will be sorry if they unbalance the most balanced class in neocron. I won't quit..I'll make an APU monk..its my second favourite and second best class in my book...

PS. is the hit on PSI abilities 20 or 30%? Patc notes said 20..people say 30....clear me up on this.

Crono
26-07-03, 20:08
rofl bubby, so are you saying your APU monks get a 30% decrease in combat power for using the tl 3 heal?


omg people still talking about the hybrids when KK said months back over and over that they werent meant to be. how could you not be expecting this >_<

Psycho_Soldier
26-07-03, 20:10
You don't know what you are talking about. You sound like a 5 year old now screaming "OHHH MOMMY ITS NOT FAAAAAAAIIRR!!!!". Monks can carry all kinds of diffrent types of weapons as APU. Can a tank? No, it's way too heavy, we can carry 3 heavy weapons at most and not have very much ammo, thats if you have all STR points into HC. This is balanced though because of the apus PSI pool and the lack of resist/buffs. Now let's look at the hybrid. Huge PSI pool, defenses close to that of a PPU monk, and can deal out alot of damage. Now lets look at the tank, less defense than a PE when you include all the best combination of buffs, imps, and resist setups. Comparing a tank to the old hybrid which is obvious that you are doing is completely stupid, and the person actually doing it (you) isn't very bright.

SigmaDraconis
26-07-03, 20:11
stat wise the TL 3 heal would be nerfed because of the overbearing amount of APU you have..but the PPU would have only a slight effect on yur APU right? KK wasnt very clear how they calcualted the effects.....

Sleawer
26-07-03, 20:57
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier

You don't know what you are talking about. You sound like a 5 year old now screaming "OHHH MOMMY ITS NOT FAAAAAAAIIRR!!!!". Monks can carry all kinds of diffrent types of weapons as APU. Can a tank? No, it's way too heavy, we can carry 3 heavy weapons at most and not have very much ammo, thats if you have all STR points into HC. This is balanced though because of the apus PSI pool and the lack of resist/buffs. Now let's look at the hybrid. Huge PSI pool, defenses close to that of a PPU monk, and can dead out alot of damage. Now lets look at the tank, less defense than a PE when you include all the best combination of buffs, imps, and resist setups. Comparing a tank to the old hybrid which is obvious that you are doing is completely stupid, and the person actually doing it (you) isn't very bright.

oh excuse me, am I hearing a tank complaining about apu weapons? Let me enlighten yourself please.

Apu monks can wear THREE type of damages, not all kinds of diferent types of weapons as you have said, those are tanks in fact. Now let's analyze those damages...

Fire - It reachs the max exponent with Fire Apocalypse, a TL-103 spell which requires 40 mana to cast. Pure apu's have 87 rate of fire with this module, and as a pure apu you get around 270 mana if you want to have a "decent" damage with this. This means you can cast/fizzle this spell 7 times, after this your rate of fire is reduced to 40 per minute (if you have popped a psi booster). The damage is worse than his relative rare Holy Lighting, due a bug where fire doesnt stack properly (fixed in mobs some patches ago).

Last test: to fire apoc in the head of a PE, with 99 fire resist, made 58 damage.

Energy - The best attack for the apu monk indeed, this type of damage is the most common in neocron, so you will find everyone with this resist overspeced. The best spell is Holy Lighting, which does a good average of damage of 80 headshot to a tank, and 65 to a PE (without psi shield). It costs 30 mana and has 105 rof, after 9 casts/fizzles your rof is 40 per minute again (and again if you have popped a psi booster).

Last test: Holy Lighting in the head of a PE, with 119 enr resist (low resists) made 66 dmg. To another PE with 154 resist made 60 dmg or 39 with psi shield. The same PE with psi shield took 64 from a CS burst. Both head shots

Poison - The most nerfed damage _ever_. With 100 thousand counter measures in the game, sanctums and normal spells for ppu monks which nullify all the damage, drugs which in seconds eliminate the longest DoT dmg in the game, and the most nerfed damage literally, being able to outheal it with medikits and 0 resists, almost no one care to spend points into the skill which resist this dmg.

- Last test: PE with 0 natural resists in this damage type outhealed 5 stacks with his TL-3 heal. Also you can use the anti poison drug that you most like.

Do not make me start to talk about the uses of the rare barrels... with a mana req of 146+, rof of 35 and range of 44m.

Bitch about tanks all what you want, but please Mr. Psycho, leave us apu monks alone. I dont know any drug or ppu spell to nullify completely the CS dmg, which btw can have 2 dmg types in one. Also I cannot carry my spells around as I would like, because I can die in two bursts of your CS, therefore dropping my 5 slotted poison beam, or my 2 slots Holy Lighting, while you can carry CS and SpeedGun safely everywhere.

oh about hybrids - most nerfed class in the game, dont bring them into discussion anymore kthxbye.

edit: Do not misunderstand me, I dont have any intention to nerf tanks, to me they are balanced enought to not bitch about them.. but I rage up when someone makes these stereotypical comments about apu's.

Psycho_Soldier
26-07-03, 21:02
Actually if you read my post, you would see I wasn't complaining about APU's. Infact I am one to agree they should be able to have about 12 PPU and still have the same damage as they do now on APU spells. I was wrong about APUs being able to use ALL KINDS of weapons but they dont have a very bad selection.

Crono
26-07-03, 21:04
lol sleawer he was sort of agreeing with you :P

(btw Hybrid wasnt meant to be a class at all so technically it wasnt nerfed :P )

Sleawer
26-07-03, 21:07
Oh, my rage went up with the wrong person then, sorry :p

edit: omg, I gonna be known as the apu bitch :D

Arcadius
26-07-03, 21:08
Originally posted by Crono
lol sleawer he was sort of agreeing with you :P

(btw Hybrid wasnt meant to be a class at all so technically it wasnt nerfed :P )



Yes it was, the devs said it before they wanted pure ppu, apu, and hybrid all to be viable.



IMO the whole MESS with the monk class started because PURES were never really meant to be. Why do you think they had to make all sorts of modifications to accomodate pures.


I think the whole monk class needs to be reworked.


Btw i agree with slewer about our "variety" of spells.

Psycho_Soldier
26-07-03, 21:09
You might wanna save that post though Sleawer, there is bound to be someone to cry nerf on the apus..

Also, I think there could be a possiblity hybrids could be a viable option. Just alot of the hybrids are pissed because they arent super overpowered now that alot of them just got pissed and lomed to pure.

Sleawer
26-07-03, 21:12
I know, I'm bitching in that thread too :p

I agree with Arc, the whole monk class needs a rework, but stop hijacking the tankeh thread ;)

ps: btw Arc, you know the funny thing, a lot of ex-hybrids turned into pure apu's, and now are claiming for apu love :D dont you love it?

Arcadius
26-07-03, 21:16
Originally posted by Sleawer
I know, I'm bitching in that thread too :p

I agree with Arc, the whole monk class needs a rework, but stop hijacking the tankeh thread ;)

ps: btw Arc, you know the funny thing, a lot of ex-hybrids turned into pure apu's, and now are claiming for apu love :D dont you love it?


No. I liked being one of the few uber apus. Now everyone's cousin is an apu. :rolleyes:

Sleawer
26-07-03, 21:17
haha fair enought, but look at it from this point of view, now we are more to bitch! :lol:

Lucjan
26-07-03, 21:34
Yes, poison is the most frequently nerfed damage type know to Neocron. But still, you are underestimating poison a lot! Poison damage is, at least from my recent experience, the best damage type available for APUs against non monk classes. People are like they are, only few did adapt poison resists - most tanks for example still get owned by poison while fire or energy is doing shit but damage to them.

Crono
26-07-03, 21:39
no no no, if they said they wanted all 3 to be viable then it was back in beta 4 when all the psi's could use every module.

this wasnt for retail they were talking about.

anyway, a hybrid is viable now with the right setup, its not owning 5 tanks at once like before though. they had to make pures look more attractive then the hybrids.

Arcadius
26-07-03, 21:41
Originally posted by Lucjan
Yes, poison is the most frequently nerfed damage type know to Neocron. But still, you are underestimating poison a lot! Poison damage is, at least from my recent experience, the best damage type available for APUs against non monk classes. People are like they are, only few did adapt poison resists - most tanks for example still get owned by poison while fire or energy is doing shit but damage to them.


Are you even a monk? No offense, but HL outshines poison, even against someone with TONS of energy resist and NO poison resist.


This isn't an opinion, it's a FACT. I've tested this several times. HL doesn't do "Shit" damage EVER in the hands of a pure apu. Well, Except maybe against stupid pes with shelter and psi shield( :rolleyes: ) Poison IMO is only good right now against people who are shielded. But if poison didn't bypass shields then it would be utterly useless.

Arcadius
26-07-03, 21:46
Originally posted by Crono
no no no, if they said they wanted all 3 to be viable then it was back in beta 4 when all the psi's could use every module.

this wasnt for retail they were talking about.



Erm no, i'm talking about retail not beta. Why would I talk about beta?


They just said they didn't want hybrids using the best of both worlds. They never said they didn't want hybrids to be viable. If they really wanted to get rid of hybrids they could have done so sooooooooooo easily.



Originally posted by Crono

anyway, a hybrid is viable now with the right setup,

I disagree.

Crono
26-07-03, 21:47
why?
u telling me that it is totally useless, or just cant own?

Lucjan
26-07-03, 21:56
Arc, Im playing 2 tanks (1 H-C, 1 melee), 2 spies (1 pure trader, 1 stealth sniper), 2 monks (hybrid and APU). The only thing I don't have that much experience with are PEs ;-)

HL is doing nice damage, but judging from OP fights as tank and APU, I have to say my poison beam is more in use then my shinny new 4 slot HL. People are sheltered all the time, most tanks I see get shitty damage from my H-L, but they drop to poison. Then playing my tank, I see the same thing happening - people screaming to take the poison using APUs first. Fact is, anti-poison drugs do work great in testing and it seems like they render poison useless, but during fights most people even forget that these exist. Give poison a try, if you are disappointed, you still can gank my trader spy if it makes you fell better ;P

This is just my personal opinion not based on tests, but on what I see nearly every day.

Arcadius
26-07-03, 22:15
Originally posted by Crono
why?
u telling me that it is totally useless, or just cant own?

Hybrids right? It's nto TOTALLY useless but IMO their just messed up now.


It's hard to describe. I mean a hybrid can still have defense enough so that it takes a long ass time to kill them but their offense is horrific, they suck at PvM now, and in team battles OMG forget it.


I can't really BLAME kk though, this has been a long-standing problem and people were harassing KK and flaming them for not coming up with a real solution.



Originally posted by Lucjan
Give poison a try, if you are disappointed, you still can gank my trader spy if it makes you fell better ;P


Give it a try? omg of course I use poison who do you think you're talking to? :p


Jeez.


You basically helped my arguement. You said people are sheltered all the time in op battles. Hence why poison is so useful. But it's still weaker than it should be. If it didn't penetrate shelter I assure you no one would hardly use it. Poison damage was fine before the "big" nerf. I have NO idea why tehy reduced the damage so much AND provided a zillion countermeasures.

One or the other, but both? :wtf:

I used to use poison all the time in op battles, however recently I've started using HL more because the "shelter on other people" nerf. I can still do good damage to non ppu sheltered people now.


It's a shame alot of the people who got owned by poison before the nerf didn't even have poison resist. *sigh*

And the thing is, they would say things like "omg 10 stacks and i'm gone". Well DUH, 10 HL, 10 Fire apoc, 10 ANYTHING will twist someone.

lol

Sleawer
26-07-03, 23:38
Lucjan, I have an artifact 5 slots toxic beam, and I cap it in all stats, capped range 119, capped rof 105 and capped dmg 648%, and still it SUX.

Is good in very little situations, mostly against other apu's, and not even that. Let's see the two most common examples, OP fight and 1 vs 1.

- In a duel, or 1vs1 skirmize, I cannot wait 1826498 years to kill my oponent, less when I can die in three bursts or get a leg shot and die in the next burst directly to head. I have to kill my opponent asap, as many time he is alive, less chances I have to survive. Definetly poison, with the loooongest DoT time in any weapon, is not helping me, plus after killing me can cast heal, pop up a medkit and eat an anti-poison drug, problem solved.

- In an OP fight, against people shelter seems good, but it's just another illusion. Because the infamous ppu monk with his holy antipoison sanctum or holy cathar-fuck-poison-again sanctum doesnt need even to stop casting a heal to neutralize it. Now, with the recent patches, is even less usefull, because with my HL definetly I do more dmg to sheltered people than any other spell.

You already should knew this.

edit: I think range is capped at 119, I'm not logged to check it.

Clownst0pper
27-07-03, 01:08
I killed Twist3r and 187b both CS tanks at the same time, with my Pistol PE.

CS's dmg is only bad if U dont keep on the move and tackle them head on. There gonna defo hit u with all 4 shots.

As for there 'tracking' ability, yup, wish that was sorted someone.

But if i can do it, well youlot cant :cool:

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

bubby
27-07-03, 02:34
Originally posted by SigmaDraconis
1)what max damage spell can a tank get?

2)Tanks get the 30% APU/PPU penalty aswell...then again we can only use the TL3 heal so we go pure PPU anyway. The reason tanks arent subject to the 30% hit is because we dont have the capability to add godly sheilds and heals to our aresenal of offensive abilities the same way a Hybrid did.

3) Dont double post.

4) You will be sorry if they unbalance the most balanced class in neocron. I won't quit..I'll make an APU monk..its my second favourite and second best class in my book...

PS. is the hit on PSI abilities 20 or 30%? Patc notes said 20..people say 30....clear me up on this.
yeah but you can use melee and heavy and not have a 30 percent loss of damage on your heavy ?

how fair is that./

Glok
27-07-03, 02:35
Melee and heavy are both aggressive duh.

Xian
27-07-03, 02:57
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
I killed Twist3r and 187b both CS tanks at the same time, with my Pistol PE.

CS's dmg is only bad if U dont keep on the move and tackle them head on. There gonna defo hit u with all 4 shots.

As for there 'tracking' ability, yup, wish that was sorted someone.

If they crouch down and follow you with the reticle for a split second, they have a perfect aim for 2-3 seconds after that if they lose the reticle lock. This means they can pop off a burst and hit you with all four blobs without problem before they definitely need to let the reticle hover over you again to keep it closed.

If I'm fighting a PE I do run after them, but when I know they're going to do a regular strafing pattern I crouch for the 2-odd seconds needed and track them so the reticle closes. Bam, I know I've got two bursts done and quite possibly with perfect hits.

I'd love to see how you fought, and how those tanks fought; because with the reticle on the CS the way it is it's hard not to hit someone.

Sigma
27-07-03, 03:08
Originally posted by Clownst0pper
I killed Twist3r and 187b both CS tanks at the same time, with my Pistol PE.

CS's dmg is only bad if U dont keep on the move and tackle them head on. There gonna defo hit u with all 4 shots.

As for there 'tracking' ability, yup, wish that was sorted someone.

But if i can do it, well youlot cant :cool:

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:

haha, but i pwned u in our duels :p :D

but i DO think kk should take out aimtoggle, maybe give spells the cs aiming with aimtoggle and remove the toggle for other weapons so it will be more skilldependent and not just point and click (sounds kinda confusing, will clarify later if needed, need sleep @_@ )

skis
27-07-03, 03:18
I think he means take out the closing reticle and just put a crosshair like other fps games. So the shot goes right where your crosshair is no matter if its on someone or not.

Sigma
27-07-03, 03:44
nah, i just meant to bring back the old aim sytem, where the reticle opens fully if u lose ur target, not like atm where it stays closed for a while after u lost ur target.

and give spells the aiming like it is now.

hope i made my self more clear this time :)

(omg....so...sleepy....@_@...ZZZzzzZzzZzZZZzzzzZzz......)

^_^

Psycho_Soldier
27-07-03, 05:33
Ok, lets think about what the rectile is for. To me it is there just so its slightly difficult to always hit your target. I mean, if your target moves out of the rectile that doesn't always mean the person using the weapon hasn't lost sight of them, it just means they aren't in position to get hit. Now if the person holding the weapon loses complete sight of there target, then I believe the rectile should completely open, which it is the way currently I think, unless you are in first person then you always see the person. There just a little random bug where if you slightly lose your target, sometimes it opens fully which is a bunch of crap.

QuantumDelta
27-07-03, 05:49
It doesn't open up at all with CS in third, not noticably....

bubby
27-07-03, 14:38
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Ok, lets think about what the rectile is for. To me it is there just so its slightly difficult to always hit your target. I mean, if your target moves out of the rectile that doesn't always mean the person using the weapon hasn't lost sight of them, it just means they aren't in position to get hit. Now if the person holding the weapon loses complete sight of there target, then I believe the rectile should completely open, which it is the way currently I think, unless you are in first person then you always see the person. There just a little random bug where if you slightly lose your target, sometimes it opens fully which is a bunch of crap.

WTF?

It should be a steady thing, if your not on target then you miss
period

Hecate
27-07-03, 15:36
arrr lol to many posts on this thread :p die evil thread die :p

bubby
27-07-03, 16:08
mods dont seem to want to close it, its now a useless thread
turned into spam athon

Psycho_Soldier
27-07-03, 18:28
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It doesn't open up at all with CS in third, not noticably....

That's bullshit, I play a tank on pluto and I consider myself to be pretty good at dueling, I do not claim to be the best though. I do know what I am talking about though. If the rectile doesn't open at all or not noticably, because the tank either never moved the rectile from the target or reaquired his target really quickly therefore retained lock which is possible and takes skill. Sometimes even if you are quick enough to reaquire your target quickly it still opens up fully which I believe to be a bug. If I was to lose my lock for 1 full second maybe a little more, then the rectile would be fully or near fully open.

QuantumDelta
27-07-03, 18:32
Then explain how I can do a full running 360 degree turn with my tank and keep the lock? o_O

Psycho_Soldier
27-07-03, 18:35
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
because the tank either never moved the rectile from the target or reaquired his target really quickly therefore retained lock which is possible and takes skill.

Xian
27-07-03, 18:38
Wrong. You can keep the reticle off someone for a second or two and when you put it back it'll still be fully closed. Also, you can take if off someone, put it back and it will continue to close, as if you'd had it on them the entire time.

I think the time it takes for a CS reticle to 'reset' is too long.

Psycho_Soldier
27-07-03, 18:43
Originally posted by Xian
Wrong. You can keep the reticle off someone for a second or two and when you put it back it'll still be fully closed. Also, you can take if off someone, put it back and it will continue to close, as if you'd had it on them the entire time.

I think the time it takes for a CS reticle to 'reset' is too long.

Ok, I after thinking back a couple times, this has happened before, but it isn't very often that I notice it. This I also consider a bug, most likely in relation to the bug where if you lost your target for less than a second then it fully opens. I really hate this shit because it actually makes me play worse because of the randomness. Also another bug I remembered, even if I have a lock with my CS sometimes, only 1 of the blobs end up hitting the target if any, this also doesn't happen very often, but when it does its extemely annoying.

KRIMINAL99
27-07-03, 18:45
Thats not true guys. CS burst bonus is pretty big compared to other weapons. But once it wears off it wears off. By my calculations (before the last patch) a pe could defeat a Tank with a CS by just standing still, dam boosting him and hitting him with 10 liberator shots. In the mean time the PE's health would drop huge amounts and then pop back up. The problem is every time someone sees their health drop like that they run like crazy and almost assuredly die while trying to get away.

Nidhogg
27-07-03, 18:50
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Ok, I after thinking back a couple times, this has happened before, but it isn't very often that I notice it. This I also consider a bug, most likely in relation to the bug where if you lost your target for less than a second then it fully opens. I really hate this shit because it actually makes me play worse because of the randomness. Also another bug I remembered, even if I have a lock with my CS sometimes, only 1 of the blobs end up hitting the target if any, this also doesn't happen very often, but when it does its extemely annoying. This is not a bug. It's by design and was put in to counter noobs running past and destroying your lock.

/edit - It's in the patch notes somewhere (from way back).
N

Xian
27-07-03, 18:52
Originally posted by Psycho_Soldier
Ok, I after thinking back a couple times, this has happened before, but it isn't very often that I notice it. This I also consider a bug, most likely in relation to the bug where if you lost your target for less than a second then it fully opens. I really hate this shit because it actually makes me play worse because of the randomness. Also another bug I remembered, even if I have a lock with my CS sometimes, only 1 of the blobs end up hitting the target if any, this also doesn't happen very often, but when it does its extemely annoying.

I vaguely remember posting something about reticle locks and how accuracy with a CS seems to be virtually random. Like I said before, you can stand miles away from a WB with the crosshair pretty wide open, fire, and get all four blobs hitting. You can stand right up next to it, crosshair closed, and nothing hits. The same goes for PvP.

Psycho_Soldier
27-07-03, 18:52
Originally posted by Nidhogg
This is not a bug. It's by design and was put in to counter noobs running past and destroying your lock.

/edit - It's in the patch notes somewhere (from way back).
N

Which one isn't? I mentioned 3 that I thought were.

*ph33r*
27-07-03, 18:53
Originally posted by bubby
mods dont seem to want to close it, its now a useless thread
turned into spam athon

QuantumDelta
27-07-03, 20:17
Originally posted by KRIMINAL99
Thats not true guys. CS burst bonus is pretty big compared to other weapons. But once it wears off it wears off. By my calculations (before the last patch) a pe could defeat a Tank with a CS by just standing still, dam boosting him and hitting him with 10 liberator shots. In the mean time the PE's health would drop huge amounts and then pop back up. The problem is every time someone sees their health drop like that they run like crazy and almost assuredly die while trying to get away.
Burst bonus *stays*
HP Bounce is completely different.

Burst Bonus basically is this.

Bullet 1: 2 HP damage.
Bullet 2: 4 HP damage.
Bullet 3: 8 HP damage.
Bullet 4: 16 HP damage.

Now, CS doesn't have bullet one as 2hp.

The thing is, CS has the biggest base damage and 28% Burst bonus so whatever it's base damage is, is upped by 28% for every additional bullet that hits... at least, this is the understanding I've got from reading the posts from the Devs.

Pain Easer also has a 28% Burst Bonus, however because it's 3 bullets and because it's base damage is lower, it does far less damage.

Liberators burst bonus is 20% with a already low base damage so it does err ..nothing.

8% per bolt(bullet) = large large automatic and unfair difference when you consider the base damage of weapons as well.


The HP Bounce bug has been fixed with one simple change.
"Death is now server side." The HP Bounce bug can make you display on 0 hp and you can still live.

Why?

Basically, what I think happened was that the Client will always calculate the worst possible damage you can take from a blast and then the server will update and remove the extra damage from what you resisted/what missed out of the burst.
HP Bounce is NOTHING TO DO WITH BURST BONUS.

Kay?


Psycho_Soldier.
I know you have a fair amount of skill, I've seen you fight Vet you're not that bad.

What I mean by 360 degree turn, is turn myself 360 degrees (while running so in a big loop) with the target not having moved (the Tank aiming has moved) I turned all the way around from 12 o'clock noon, *running* the path of the second hand while turning as well, so looping in a 360 degree arc (having lost the lock the second I start turning) ALL THE WAY AROUND from 12 o'clock through to 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock again and still have full lock.
And I can do it reliably....

Psycho_Soldier
27-07-03, 20:38
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
What I mean by 360 degree turn, is turn myself 360 degrees (while running so in a big loop) with the target not having moved (the Tank aiming has moved) I turned all the way around from 12 o'clock noon, *running* the path of the second hand while turning as well, so looping in a 360 degree arc (having lost the lock the second I start turning) ALL THE WAY AROUND from 12 o'clock through to 6 o'clock to 12 o'clock again and still have full lock.
And I can do it reliably....

How long did all of that take you? Less than a second? a second maybe?

QuantumDelta
27-07-03, 20:41
You have a point there, when I first came to neocron I actually had to reduce my reflexes because of Tribes2 (I was used to spinning around in the air several times before landing to give full vantage / firing opportunities/etc.
I will test again making sure I take a great deal of time (alls relative...great deal of time) to make the turn, see if I can find out exactly how long this lock lasts, because to my reaction speeds, it's an eternity and beyond.....

bubby
28-07-03, 07:30
Originally posted by Xian
Wrong. You can keep the reticle off someone for a second or two and when you put it back it'll still be fully closed. Also, you can take if off someone, put it back and it will continue to close, as if you'd had it on them the entire time.

I think the time it takes for a CS reticle to 'reset' is too long.

not to mention shooting the oposite way your looking

Psycho_Soldier
28-07-03, 07:40
Originally posted by bubby
not to mention shooting the oposite way your looking

Most weapons are like that... not just the CS... :rolleyes: It's also mainly due to if you shoot when you have a lock the burst will track your target, so once it hits your target, you are probably looking another way.. Also, lag has a little something to do with some of that also.

Nasher
28-07-03, 12:15
The problem probably is that resists/armor havn't worked properly since mid beta 3 so probably take more damage from most weapons than you should. More resist points should = more resist, the same way that more health points = more total health. But atm its not getting calculated properly :/

evs
28-07-03, 12:30
is why people say capped tank and cs > all

when holy lightning does so much more damage?


----

Cursed Soul

basic : 4 x 324 enr/frc

@ cap 178%

= 4 x 576 = 2306.88 damage a burst

divided by 1/3 due to steel skin: 769 damage

----

holy lightning

basic : 1350 enr

@ cap 648%

= 8748 damage

divided by 1/3 due to steel skin: 2916 damage





or have i screwed my maths/data somewhere?

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 12:34
evs.

A) B.U.R.S.T. B.O.N.U.S.

B) No one caps HL without PSI 3.

C) APUs (Pure) who have 61x% HL damage have zero defence.

D) CS RoF Overcomes HL RoF after the intitial mana pool is drained due to PSI Boosters not replenishing fast enough to fuel it.

Hecate
28-07-03, 12:37
One problem with external view is that you can kill a noob passing behind you by accident. thats why the "bug" with the aiming circle.

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 12:39
Hecate, the origins of that 'bug' was the "noob walking across sights = no more lock at all" not killing the noob...

so they made it that the noob could walk across your sights without making your CS lock go to zero on your original target, when the noob gets out the way (or you move) the lock is still there.

Sleawer
28-07-03, 12:42
1 - you cannot cap 648% dmg in your holy lighting
2 - to get a decent damage in that spell, you need to gimp your mana heavily
3 - with the mana gimped (average of 270), you have 105 rof the first 9 casts/fizzles, after this your rof decreases to 40 per minute (if you cast a psi booster), so your damage is reduced aswell.
4 - CS can have a constant rof of 210+ shots per minute, until you deploye your ammo in the inventory. When the monk deployes the mana, not only the rof is decreased to crap, but also we have to keep our ammo (psi boosters) in the quickbelt, with the longest reaload time in the game, and if we run out of them in qb, we are dead.
5 - To justify this CRAP, I can die in 2-3 bursts of CS, or receive a leg shot, and die in the next burst. When the tank can survive under fire much more time and therefore dealing more damage.

What I cannot understand is why...

1- People do not read the previous posts before reply
2- why still people look at Rustot's page (http://neocron.ems.ru) as if it were the Bible.

edit: oh well, thanks QD for explaining it, I forgot about the burst bonus aswell.

Just a note more, to reach 61x% dmg in HL (612% to be precise), you not only have to gimp your mana pool, but also you have to gimp your mental steadiness to a degree that you no longer can cast Holy Antibuff (one of the best roles of apu's), or the rare barrels.

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 12:44
Oh I dunno, Rustot's page is very good for low to mid range debate data :)
Only thing really better than it which is openly available is reasoned(eg; non-whacky) vet personal experience so meh :p

Sleawer
28-07-03, 12:48
Yes, it is good as an average guide, but a lot of people misread it, and come to the conclusion that, i.e. liberator is overpowered :p

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 12:52
LOL

evs
28-07-03, 12:58
no need to get narcy ;)

thanks for the explanations :)

i dont profess to know it all, and hence why i asked :D


so this burst bonus lark.


how much would you get on a capped cs then?

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 13:02
CS Damage is unreliable to test with....

If it helps any, in a single shot, HL does out damage CS on myself, but not by a huge insane amount.

HL did 94 to me earlier, (yesterday while testing something... need to do more tests), meanwhile, CS does about 70 maybe a bit less if the full burst hits.

Sleawer
28-07-03, 13:06
Sorry if I was rude, but basically the entire thread have been talking about the burst bonus of CS, and specially in the last 10 posts I spoke about Holy Lighting and Fire Apoc with the same info.

Those numbers you have shown are correct in PvM, in PvP however burst cannons and rifles have a modifier of +28% burst bonus dmg. Liberator has it reduced to 20%.

edit: HL is useless to test damages now QD, it can hit you for 90 dmg of for 39, totally random.

Stigmata
28-07-03, 13:09
Wow, i cant believe this spam thread is still going.

Perhaps Nid is trying to keep the spamathon all in the same thread

Andy

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 13:11
Stig.
It's not a spam thread.

Sleawer, I keep forgetting about random damage on APU ..it's funny but the guy hit me for 94 three times ¬.¬ sigh.. so much for my uber defence...

Sleawer
28-07-03, 13:12
Weird, usually against sheltered PE's I do an average of 66 per headshot, much less in chest or legs.

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 13:14
Heh, 120 combined ENR + Shelter + PSI Shield -_-

evs
28-07-03, 13:19
So in general
an APU does around 70 to a sheltered PE
how much is it against a tank with fairly standard setup?
i.e 70 in enr with armour coming to about 90 energy

a lot less or about the same ?

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 13:27
That's not a standard tank setup heh.
With that kinda setup you'd take a lot more damage.
Shelter > Tanks.
Just about the only thing good going for PEs :p (except rifles...bleh)

Stigmata
28-07-03, 13:30
Sleawer, I keep forgetting about random damage on APU ..it's funny but the guy hit me for 94 three times ¬.¬ sigh.. so much for my uber defence...

Your defence is probably no weaker than before, just all the hybrid who previously hit you for less are now pure apu and do a great deal more damage to you ?

I noticed i can kill most un-buffed pe's in 3 shotsm, also an apu in 4 fire shots (unbuffed)

Andy

The damage is pretty insane, but KK want it this way, no more hybrid problems atleast

QuantumDelta
28-07-03, 13:31
Erm No.
I know what I'm testing against, hybrids or pures, I always make sure.

You mistake me for an amature.


edit;
Yes, pure apu hl normally hurt, but it never hurt that much.

Sleawer
28-07-03, 13:38
lol Stig, not every monk was hybrid before the patch :p

And about the damage, imo it is a matter of setup's, if the PE specs his enr resists the damage of HL is actually lower than CS, if he hs a more balanced setup, HL does pretty more dmg compared (about 20+) to a CS burst.

Yet I have to find a PE unbuffed in a fight, and if he is well configured probably it will take much more than three shots. Against pistol PE's I try to not let them approach, hitting the legs from far and keeping a good distance, against rifle PE's I like them near me, almost over them.

evs
28-07-03, 13:38
vs an apu, using a fire capped TSG
would i get burst bonus of 28% and vs a 300 health apu, am i looking at killing the offending monk very quickly, or becoming toast?
i realise firebelt and 50 FIR would be a good defence against it, but what would be the quickest way?

a capped fire CS?


(sorry not done much pvp....well.....none really) so instead of wading in - may as well ask you peeps who seem to do it every 5 mins ;)