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QuantumDelta
16-02-03, 03:38
People around here may have mixed oppinions about this game.
This community.
This company.

I carry a warning that anyone who had bared witness to can sing...

My last major game was called "FreeSpace2", for those of you who played it online (not a lot here, but I know at least one player did.....) you may remember what the community was like when the game first opened, it wasn't too bad, there were a few cheating accusations and a few other problems like bugs....
Due to some support mess ups, the community occasionally would make heavy vents on the admins who ran the servers, the admins put up with this for a fairly long time...
However the community got worse, trust fell away from the players, clans began to close their gates to newbies because most newbies were just other players coming in as spies... clans would flame eachother, calling eachother cheats sometimes founded, sometimes not.
As the community continued to deteriorate, the mods / admins gave up, and left, the forum (Which was actually *A LOT* like this forum, in setup, community, and moderation...) "The VBB" was closed, simply because it was far too much of a hassle for the admins and moderators to try to keep up with the flames of the community...
Yes, this game is managing better but the mods around here are more determined and seem to be slightly better equipped.
However, in the end most of the community ended up using proxis and other peripheral methods to access the forums (until closed).

After that, the league management system (squadwars) fell into disrepair, and the admins refused to fix it.
the missions ingame became old, and no one had anything to do, at the moment, the community is very dead, compared to what it was, there is only a few percentage left of it's original online membership, the community *is* regrouping, huddling together in the last corners of light from the online server, working together, but the moderators and admins are long gone, because the community drove them away...
The mod/admins did not help themselves by controlling this in the first place, they made a mistake or two and then shrank away from the forums, which steadily became known simply as hell.
Children in 30+ year old bodies came out, running rampently around as if the world was ending, losing all self control, it really wasn't pretty....

This place is not even remotely as bad as the VBB Used to be, however it is starting to slip that way, even with good moderation, the lack of presence from KK itself a while back has started to make me twitchy, I can see extreme similarities in the way both communities progressed...

To the players;

Flames do not help anyone.
They ruin peoples oppinions of yourselves, they hurt or annoy other people, they cause headaches for the forum leaders.
I ask you guys before this place does start getting to bad that you try to moderate yourselves..
This includes stuff like "Whiners vs uber 1337s" as well as the threads where people say good bye, if you don't care about that person, don't post, let it sink to the bottom of the pile, stop with the "STFU and don't cry for attention" because all it looks like is a cry for attention from yourself, to the carebears stop flaming PKs, if you will talk to PKers a lot of them turn out to be reasonable, or at least semi-reasonable...
To the anti-carebear PKer kind, comments like "STFU n00b put yer LE chip back in hahahaha" ....etc, makes you look like a rabid moron who just sat through three hours of being forced to watch tellytubbies and needs to vent. It does not make you superior, it does not make you look intelligent.
All of this, all of it, doesn't help.
If you feel you have gotten 'nerfed' then go and check your character thoroughly, there is always something that can be done to adjust it to 'non-nerfed', no matter what your class is.

To the moderators, and the Devs;
Try not to be so harsh on people for violating the forum rules, editing out posts and suggesting another course of conversation is far better than closing threads, and I have seen some of you doing it, it takes more time yes, however this touch is far more suggesting of a caring admin staff...
To the devs, who have, for the most part disappeared recently...
Don't let this community drive you away, yes, there will be assholes, however should you feel those assholes getting to you, focus on the people who are saying positive things about your work, because you are DOING GOOD WORK.
You are human, most of us appreciate that, we KNOW you make mistakes, we make them too, it is a great man, who admits that they have made a mistake and rectifies it.


I really do not want this community, and that company to go the way Volition and Interplay did...
This place, although the game needs work, the community needs to shape up, can be far greater then FS ever was (you may not think much of that comment, however I have been playing the FS series since '97...that should tell you how much that comment means).

This place, needs to be more laid back, less flamey, and more friendly, to everyone.

(Sounds carebeary? welllllll wtf :p ....but I have been through hell, I do not want to see it recreated.)

Arcadius
16-02-03, 03:41
Carebear

Arcadius
16-02-03, 03:42
j/k
:p

Owain
16-02-03, 03:43
Very nice post.

Gundog Prime
16-02-03, 03:43
My God...a selfless post intended ONLY to aid KK and NC....and thus the players....

Ur a rare find QD a rare find, keep it up you got the Dawgs support :D

artricia
16-02-03, 03:47
OMG PUT Y3R L3 IN N00B!!! OMG HAX!!!11ONEONEOENEONEON



anyways...good post, i always respect your little opinion qd. Very well put.

hopefully a few mods might see this. I have complete faith in the community, and the players that play in the realm of it.

peace.

Forseti
16-02-03, 03:49
Great post. It's nice to read something positive now and then.

DarkPhoenix
16-02-03, 03:54
Yes very nice post QD.

You might remember me...JBX-Phoenix, tis me. If not me then surely JBX...Yes?

QuantumDelta
16-02-03, 03:59
Heya Phoenix ;)
Not like me to forget another pilot now is it? :p
Nice to see people around other places that you know from previous games.... ;)

mclayton
16-02-03, 04:04
I played UO for two years and the devs took no notice of the players at all, even though the boards were much less moany than this one. I get fed up reading pages and pages of whinging. It's pointless.

I have no doubt that KK want to make Neocron the best game they can.
1) For their own pride and satisfaction
2) To make bundles of cash (and why not - they work hard)

Being small they have limited resources, much more limited than Origin's were for UO, so it will take a while. the signs are good, and every patch improves thing slowly. I was very impressed how KK altered the last patch notes almost daily around the discussions on this forum: Origin wouldn't have dreamt of consulting the players. Of course, they were a bit silly by slipping in the lol's and I'm very surprised that they didn't offer a reskill because even Martin and Thanatos said they didn't know about it.

I do wonder if they were so pissed off with us moaning that not reskilling was a bit of a "fuck you" kinda thing. After all, if you hit a dog enough times it will bite you. In their position I might have done the same thing. Frankly, if I was a dev and read these boards I'd give it up, why bother working your butt off for a load of ungrateful bastards. I'm not saying lets all kiss ass, lets just be more reasonable and constructive with our comments before the devs stop reading the boards all together.

Neocron is a great game that's getting better all the time, so go with the flow and enjoy it, it's not life or death!

BTW If you are leaving, that's fine, just don't bother telling us about it because we couldn't give a shit :-)

QuantumDelta
16-02-03, 04:10
Bob - that's fine, however some people would post off the leaving thing because there would be people in the community who they would like to say goodbye to, and it's far easier to say it to a large group in one go then a lot of people in PM.

I'm not leaving, not for a long time ;)
I was just trying to say 'stress off the people who post that they are' okay?
If no one cares about them leaving, then why reply?
.............That's all I'm saying, really, everyone should treat eachother with a little more respect around here(all people, pks, antipks, n00bs, vets, everyone....), that's all.

Martlet
16-02-03, 04:15
I could care less about spies.

We have no secrets.
We don't have anything to steal. Strip our cabinets, I could care less.

mclayton
16-02-03, 04:25
Reading between the lines of most of these "I'm leaving" threads, I don't think they want to leave at all. They just get so caught up in the Moanacron side of things that every little change is a "nerf" that makes their character unplayable: They take it so seriously I can imagine them throwing things out the window as they write. IT'S ONLY A GAME!!! If they stopped moaning and tried playing with the new rules for a while, they would find that Neocron is still the best MMORPG on the market, you just have to adapt a bit. I am a games reviewer and if you had to play some of the shit I do, you would realise how good Neocron is. I rated it as the best game of last year for the PC even though there were some great games in 2002. And yes, I did mention the bugs in my review, and I am never influenced by the publishers (although a holiday in Barbados could get an extra point or two :-)

I was a bit pissed off at having to lose a few levels after the last patch, but guess what? After a while, I forgot all about the fact that I was slightly weaker than last week and I gained the levels back far quicker than it took me to get them in the first place because I knew what to do.

LaZeRiS
16-02-03, 04:29
Nice post my attention span cute me off at warning though :(

NC Death
16-02-03, 05:44
Unfortunately though people lost patience with KK and the way the Mods do handle things that all that is left for people is to express their anger and this brings out the worst in people. The problem now was originally created by KK and the mods and because of thier inability to handle it right the prblem exploded into what we got now. Everyone is pissed at eachother for one reason or another. It was all seen a long time agi but ignored and now its beyond anyones control except KK and they better act real fast.

Dade Murphey
16-02-03, 05:54
great post man

zoidberg
16-02-03, 13:31
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
If you feel you have gotten 'nerfed' then go and check your character thoroughly, there is always something that can be done to adjust it to 'non-nerfed', no matter what your class is.


did you play the game lately ?
pk is a big part of the game ( at least it was for me )
currently with the new rules i can no longer earn a reward for pk'ing (its impossible even if i put everie point i have in hacking i cant get into the belt )
so please explain to me how you wood call it if 3 of the 4 clases in an online game can do a vital act of the game and 1 class can not

SH1NJ1NTEHBANND
16-02-03, 14:10
.

Mirco
16-02-03, 14:22
Originally posted by zoidberg

did you play the game lately ?
pk is a big part of the game ( at least it was for me )
currently with the new rules i can no longer earn a reward for pk'ing (its impossible even if i put everie point i have in hacking i cant get into the belt )
so please explain to me how you wood call it if 3 of the 4 clases in an online game can do a vital act of the game and 1 class can not

You are a tank right?
Oboy, do I wanna take this down the "If you want a mindless frontline warrior roll as a tank, If you want to have some more options reroll as something else" but I won`t (well I did, didnt I, sort of)

Well, I don`t think tanks should cry so much about that they cant hack belts. Its completely in line with the characteristics so It shouldn`t be a big deal. Constructing is big part of the game and you can`t do that either, you`ll need a tradeskill character. Its all done in the spirit of teamwork. Tag along with a hacker, problem solved. Also tanks can hold their own in most combat situations. To cry about nerfs, when the other classes have had more gameplay effecting PvP/PvM nerfs? :rolleyes: *** mobs I only attack under the right conditions now and it takes very long time and it takes many relaunches of my drones to do it without loosing them. I didn`t like it at first, but I`ve learned to live with it.

FUNKTRON
16-02-03, 15:52
Just wanted to add my support to this post. :D :p great wrk. peace for u all

Lanigav
16-02-03, 16:17
Good post, but sadly good posts rarely do anything to change things positively. Only actions from the players and the staff can. Remember, you may be a product of your environment, but moreso your environment is a product of you. ;)

Gotta give credit where its due, the patch and message board teams are far, far better than anything the people at Everquest and Earth and Beyond ever had. They patch frequently, don't mindlessly change stuff just "because", don't cause character destroying nerfs, actually post on the boards (a little more posting on certain threads would be great though), and moderate fairly well.

Get Wyatt Earp fixed, and all the crashes/desynching problems fixed, and you'll be tops. :D

Rade
16-02-03, 16:20
It doesnt really matter how many of these kind of posts you send out, the average person that you are trying to give a clue wont bother reading the entire post. And if he does, he will just like zoidberg here, miss the entire point of the post.

QuantumDelta
16-02-03, 18:52
Heh, yeah I know Rade, but there are veterans around here who would most likely pay some attention and could benefit from it themselves...
I think the post does state pretty obviously what I'm really trying to do...
I wasn't complaining at anyone, just trying to give a lil ray of light :p

The boards have been much better recently IMO...
I expect however, that it'll repeat its performance after a few events... patches...whatever heh, just trying to stem the tide :p

Thanks to those who are seeing it's true intent ;)

Necronomin
16-02-03, 19:29
good post but one difference between that other community is that in NC we pay for the game each month that is why there is the expectation of at least some kind off proper feedback/maintenance. This is one reason i finally got sick of the HL online community...was part of that for a long time but cheats ruined it and community and admins basically accepted they couldnt stop the cheats. :(



. Frankly, if I was a dev and read these boards I'd give it up, why bother working your butt off for a load of ungrateful bastards. I'm not saying lets all kiss ass, lets just be more reasonable and constructive with our comments before the devs stop reading the boards all together.

why bother??? because they are getting paid for it i would imagine?

Even then im pretty sure KK could promote enthusiastic volunteer veteran game members to GM to help them if they thought they needed more help....

Apoc
16-02-03, 19:54
QD, we know each other now for about 5 years, from Freespace and your Post brings back a lot of memories, good and bad.

You are just right.

Nothing more to add...

TheProffesional
16-02-03, 21:17
Honestly i havent read more than 2 lines of what you wrote, but seeing as you have like a million paragraphs there, im going assume you are right, about whatever you might be right about. ? o_O

:angel:

Bladepoint
16-02-03, 21:58
This is one of my greatest fears for Neocron that we as a community will just annoy/alienate them into not caring about the game/world/community anymore. Yes they have made some mistakes and not all of us are happy with what's going on, but I don't get the vibe that they are trying to screw us all deliberately just to amuse themselves. I worked for on a text based fantasy MMORPG (not a mud but a real commercial game) a long time ago, and frankly I'm more than a little impressed that KK has managed to put together the game and run four servers with such a small permanent staff. I'll admit I'm not 100% happy and satisfied with the way things are going now, but I'm willing to give it time.

I've played other MMORPGs where there was rampant favoritism by the staff and they repeatedly nerfed things not because of player outcry and balance issues, but because they didn't like the players leveling so fast or making so much money etc. KK is such a huge leap beyond those unprofessionals schmoes.

One thing I think would help out a lot would be for KK to take a more active position on the boards. I know that priority is to keep the game running and improve it. I know a large portion of the posts on the boards are really just well for the lack of a better term "whining." However, there really are a lot of threads and posters who seem to genuinely have valid concerns with polite posts, posts with constructive criticisms without biting comments, and genunine suggestions to improve the game. When KK doesn't at least say hmm ok we've read that or yes we too are concered with that or wow that's a cool idea we'll look into that in the future, it feels like we're being left out in the cold; and KK doesn't care about our input for the future of Neocron. I know this is not the case, but some increased communications might go a long way to easing tensions around here.

Gundog Prime
16-02-03, 22:35
Ive used what you said and what Forget My Name said on his Thread to create a Thread of my own called 'Serious Band-Aid or Blunt Seperation...how to save NC?'.....i hope you'll pass ur eyes over it QuantumDelta, you seem to be worth comment :D

Jaggeh
16-02-03, 23:27
omg you utter noob QD, how can you know this game with your noobie level 70 PE i ask you, what is the world coming to.

btw i have a new game to play in the early hour's in plaza 1, its called pass the PK weapon.

what you have to do is find a red player, smack him, hack his belt, then take his most prized weapon.

one person stands under the billboard facing medicare, the other stands in front of the medicare doors, the objective is to play keep away with the pk inbetween you. :D :D :D

best played with rare items........

DangerousDaze
17-02-03, 01:06
Great post! This is my first MMORPG so I have no comparison, but what I do know is that I love this game more than any other I have ever played. Call me naiive but I know more people that I like and respect in-game than I hate, and I'm always glad to see them. The forums have calmed down a bit now since the patch and I'm glad to see that too.

Over the last three days or so I have run around most of the map hunting those bloody Larents, and in that time I've met many new people. Not once have I encountered any trouble, be they BD, TG whatever. Sure it could be because I'm a 52/59 * tank, but I don't think so. Most people in there are the sort of people I can respect and that's one of the things I love about Neocron.

DD

Shane Dunn
17-02-03, 01:32
Great post QD:D :D :D :D :D

Mirco
17-02-03, 01:45
As a customer you have a right to complain when you think that you have been treated badly. I guess we all can agree on that. But the kind of abusive language KK has been getting from time to time does not go with the mistakes or changes they have made. The problem is the internet as the communication link between customers and company. How many of you who have used bad language and flamed KK would have the nerve to say the stuff you been putting out here face to face to a employee of KK. People hide behind the anonymity the internet provides and "boldly" start to type their abusive posts. Is it because u need to use offensive language to get your point across? Seems like it, but Im am sure can get your point across without 20 F*** us in 5 lines(someone once said to me that people who swear alot do so because they have a bad vocabulary). I dont say you should refrain from complaining or state you opinions when you disagree with something. Just keep it C-O-N-S-T-R-U-C-T-I-V-E and fair. It all boils down to respect to other people. No one likes to take abuse in any form.

Ask your selves this when you have finished your Uber, drawn from the firery ashes of hell flame post: Would I say this to a person who was standing right in front of me? If you would, be my guest post it(I would guess you have far more serious problems in real life to spend a thought on it afterwards.) If not, go back and rewrite, use your wits to get your point across.

A quote from Aretha Franklin (dont know if I got the words right):

"R-E-S-P-E-C-T find out what it means to me

R-E-S-P-E-C-T take out the TCP ohhhh ( Sock it to me,etc.)

A little respect oh yeah ( Just a little bit)

A little respect ( Just a little Bit)

I get tired ( Just a little bit) but I keep on trying"

Ryu No Gekido
17-02-03, 01:50
Great Post!

Sadly, I've been spending some time with alot of MMORPGs for a while, more for my own educational reasons than just shopping around, but all of them have strangly similar forum histories, and communties to this one.

I'm sitting here at Shattered Galaxy, an MMORPG/RTS hybrid game mind you and I read this...

It was WAY better back in beta

This game has been going down hill since patch 1.5 where they completely changed the mechanics of the game

All of our beta vets are gone to other games

Nexor needs to get on the ball to fixing the bugs

All those leet speaking morons who gain high polictial positions ruins this game.

Sound familiar?

Go to their homepage (sorry for lack of link here, I can't seem to directly link it) and go to communty, then forums, the second forum section down and the sticky about the game losing people.

And just like this game, its great, lots of potenctial, as the game has been around, it has alot of depth to it, and its free for a while, so you can try it out if you want, but thats not the point.

The point is that this has happend to every non-major... well hell, almost every MMO out there, no exeptions.

SWG, WoW, and all the next ones will have it. FFXI had it to a small extent.

But the bigger issue is the fact that the communty doesn't help with flames, I r l33t, that sort of crap. If this contiues with this game, your going to find like shattered galaxy, about 200 people online, and the few last people desprately trying to get vets to come back and bring in newer blood.

If you want this game to survive, you have to constructivly helpt he devs, and give them time to fix the problems.

FasterPussycat
17-02-03, 06:05
How can you compare Freespace to a MMORPG?
The players set up servers to run online, the company didn't get any revenue after you bought the box.
All they did was host the stat boards.
So it was VERY easy for the admins to close up shop, you can't do that with a MMORPG.

There wouldn't be half as much bitching and flaming if KK would stop screwing around with peoples chars that they put so much time into.
I can see your point IF KK listen to constructive criticism and used the solutions this community comes up with to solve the many poorly implemented game features and botches, but KK doesn't!

How much crap do you expect people to take before lashing out?
Your post was very nice and all, but it really doesn't hold much water here.
KK is rude to their players and treats them like they don't exist unless you're German.
Don't blame the community for the mess this place is in, put the blame where it belongs.
If the game was fun instead of the mess it's in, then we would all be playing and not posting about how pissed off we all are.

We come up with solutions and the next patch is totally the opposite of what was needed.

All the people who have left and are not renewing should tell you something.

QuantumDelta
17-02-03, 06:49
You would think so.
However there are enough parralels to make a post which was directed at both KK AND the community.
It wouldn't be hard for KK to just shut this board down, ya know.
ATM they only really use this thing for
A) Storyline - which can be incorperated into the launcher.
B) Patchnotes - which can be incorperated into the launcher.

For someone who has been here since october, you don't seem to be taking much notice in the changes in the community, Yes, there have been bad patches, however KK are human.
I wonder why you came down with this attitude, unless maybe you feel a little guilty of some of these things?
Doubt that, the post count is too low.

Is it so hard to stand to reason that this game would be better if there weren't needless flames from people who could better service their country in a small padded room? -- Okay, that's an exageration, of course... I do wonder though.
I got nerfed to hell and back by 166, Hardly even noticed until I tried PvP, I still managed to pull out some stops and keep up with a GM in a fight... so I don't really believe KK have done that much wrong that they haven't started fixing, or fixed already.
LoMs? Hmm, I think, with the exception of Blu_Haze type scenarios, the only people that are really bitching about this are those who were caught with their pants down and now have screwed up points, oh well it's a hard life when you're caught exploiting...

......I'm slowly LoMing my own char anyway.
Liberator PE, Got screwed, mmkay, can't compete one on one with a tank controlled by a player of the same skill level...
No chance at all against PSI....
Rifles r0x0r Pistols b0x0rs...
Well, I'm sticking with Pistols now, so hmmmmmmm.... nope I ain't bothered too much by any "KK Mistakes."

They do listen to the players, yes, they mainly talked to the german group about the lom changes, however those changes, or similarly harsh penalties had to be applied to stop LoM exploitation ( I would personally have prefered 1 pill = 100 % impairment and no more pills until 0 % but what the hell...).

The reason I link FS with Neocron is the community itself.
These boards aren't far off squabble wars, but then I have no clue who you are, so I couldn't tell if you were one of the old vets of FS2...
...........Then again, if you were, it'd explain your post..lol. (Although from what you spoke about it I'd say you played online for about uhhhh...... five missions, within the last few months, that would be about it....)

The admins already told me they would have stayed if it were not for the community as it was when they quit, they also stated they wouldn't have stayed even if they were paid to do so, the few good people were just crushed underneath piles of flame.

....However like I said, if you didn't notice, my post was directed at KK, as well, as the community.
There needs to be better communication, there needs to be more input from the community, however to do this there needs to be a better environment to work in, it really needs to come from all sides...

It would not take more then one or two determined people with perfectly placed posts to make this place SW Forum MK2.
Though I doubt you ever saw, the SW Forum, before it was closed.

Arcadius
17-02-03, 06:53
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
oh well it's a hard life when you're caught exploiting...





I was with you, till you made this asasine comment.


:rolleyes:

QuantumDelta
17-02-03, 06:58
Well, I stand by that comment.
INGAME
Most of the people I have heard complaining about LoMs are people I know who would tradeskill hop...

I have no real way of telling about the people on the forums.

Let me guess, you were one of the people who would repeatedly LoM resists? :p
isn't that the same thing? ;p

Seven
17-02-03, 09:53
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
There needs to be better communication, there needs to be more input from the community.

The communication needs to get better on KK's part, I'm sure you'll agree as much as the rest of us that it's pretty poor.

More input from the community?
:confused:
I don't understand how you can even say that, this community has given tons of input.

I respect your post and the way you have presented it, but IMHO this community has been through a lot of crap from release screw ups to retail patch disasters, misinformation, lack of proper documentation and close to zero feedback from KK.

This type of business attitude has and will turn any good community into a bitch fest.

Arcadius
17-02-03, 10:03
Originally posted by QuantumDelta

Let me guess, you were one of the people who would repeatedly LoM resists? :p
isn't that the same thing? ;p


NO I lommed from APU to PPU to see what it was like.

zoidberg
17-02-03, 12:11
Originally posted by Rade
It doesnt really matter how many of these kind of posts you send out, the average person that you are trying to give a clue wont bother reading the entire post. And if he does, he will just like zoidberg here, miss the entire point of the post.

i read the entire post
yes i know that thy are trying to force the teaming witch isent working currentlie
1) its to hard to find an even rankt friend to level with ( the ranking system is stil to bugd [psi monk mostlie])
2) the reward is to low for killing a MOB ( about 5k for a 120/120 grim : about 2.5k a person if you are with 2 [that doesent even cover my ammo] )

as to the comment about tanks not abel to do it becous of rp stuf is just bollocks
i am talking about the fact that wen i am attackt by a pk'r and i am actualie abel to take him down (i live for those times ) that i can not loot his belt , wile if he won he woud have been abel to hack my belt or have a hacker ally nearby

i do not requist or expect my hacker friends to be on a 24/24 hour standby in case i am abel to win a pvp combat

ps:sorry for the spelling

Rade
17-02-03, 12:27
Ok, zoidberg.

That post is about we, the community, is treating eachother and the company very poorly and eventually such behaviour can cause a game to go under. It has happened before and can no doubt happen again. The post is about that we have to stop the mindless flaming, and if we want to critize it should be constructive.

The post is not a discussion around classes or balance in the game.

zoidberg
17-02-03, 13:24
wel if the companie wont listen wat do you want us to do ?
i waitid 2 months to get my hands on lev 3 inplants becous thy went on a holiday
patch notes change drasticlie and whitout warning
promised fixes ( that are in the official patch notes) are not inplementid
a complete overhaul of the game sytem whitout a notification in game ( psy/lom )

the marketing of this game is way to poorly done
if you cant read german you have no idee WTF thy are planing since about 25 % of the previeuw patch notes and comments by GM's are not in ENGLISH

Lazyblade
17-02-03, 13:38
NO I lommed from APU to PPU to see what it was like. [/B]

OMFG ! You TOTALLY knackered the game dude! Thank God that KK had the foresight to see that this sort of thing was ruining it for everyone and to immediately make it so your character couldnt be changed in any way whatsoever without having to run 30,000 missions to do it. Phew, that was a close one.

QuantumDelta
17-02-03, 14:27
@Seven

I meant KK listening ;)
Letting us give input, helping them.
I was tired (4:30am) and wasn't really in the mood heh.. anyway, sorry for the horrific grammar.

@Archadius

Same situation as blu_haze then, you were unlucky in it, he's lomed his STR I do think he's a strong player to do something like that, I do believe the GMs should have helped him with it, and you yourself as well.
However they've been given a ruleset, because some people wanted their tradeskills fixed... (guess why) and the GMs (helpfully) went and did it for those players.

@Zoidberg (oh boy....)

First off, the post gives me a headache just trying to read it, please, feel free to use This Place (http://www.dictionary.com) to tidy it up.
Secondly, I was waiting for the level three implants as well, they made a mistake in making the patch so large, because it would easily have been done a week or two after they returned.
Can you blame people for going to see their families on christmas?
....

One, Single set of patch notes were 'wrong', it was a miscommunication, they did not lie, they simply messed it up, it happens, deal.
Which fixes are you complaining about that are in the patch notes that weren't implimented? Seriously? I never crash now, I rarely synch while zoning, I rarely have FPS troubles.
They gave notice of the PSI Changes, AND Freed up all PSI Related points.
LoMs were the miscommunication, as I said, mistakes happen.
The Marketing is not KKs fault, but CDVs, if you wish to complain, go do it there.. I do agree with you on that, however there is little that can be done by complaining about it here.

Your comment about patch notes being 25% in german is also false.
Each patch notes will have an English translation of the changes, and a German translation of the changes.
I read enough german to be able to tell you you are not missing anything that is in german, the only extra bits in german that you may wish to read would be player comments and possible GM Replies, however the GMs have been kind enough to offer translations about that.
Okay?
Okay.
Try that link, please.
Especially if you're complaining about other peoples language use...

solling
17-02-03, 14:50
very nice *claps his lil hands*:D

Viduus[JBX]
14-09-03, 04:56
Still fighting the good fight, are you?

Ah, the vehemence of youth, how sorely art thou missed... :p

Get yourself a Saturn PP char QD, and then I'll meet ya on Uranus.... :D

Whiety Bulger
14-09-03, 05:03
Fatesender and Bruce Crest pwn j00

Shujin
14-09-03, 05:06
Originally posted by Arcadius
Carebear haha omfg that'd b funny if u meant taht >.<

ps. and foo's dont bug MJS either, i wub teh mjs ;] he liked my forum idea

Alex Mars
14-09-03, 05:08
I'd say that the biggest problem with this community is that the game didn't do well and some players have become insanely defensive over the issue. Too often they react to legitimate critcism by flaming, lying, and doing everything they can to obscure any discussion. I've seen a lot of gaming forums, but this one seems to be the least rational and most prone to blatant dishonesty in rabid defense of a game.

Psycho_Soldier
14-09-03, 05:10
Wow... what a bump... A good one though. Please don't close this mods, I think people still need to read this.

Gungnir
14-09-03, 05:15
--
Let every post be completely on topic, civil and meaningful.
Or this massively bumped thread will need to be closed.
--
Gungnir

Shujin
14-09-03, 05:18
Originally posted by Gungnir
--
Let every post be completely on topic, civil and meaningful.
Or this massively bumped thread will need to be closed.
--
Gungnir o_O o_O o_O :o *thinks of somethin to add*...

Yes, I feel very strongly indeed that we should not harass these fine men and women that volunteer there time to help us overcome many a situation. We should not harass them but instead imbrace them, when they cry we should hug them. When try to help someone we should leave them alone, or ask if they need help. Do not ask them questions if you see them helping another runner, they are most likely on a help call and possibly very busy.

Ehyuko
14-09-03, 05:25
Although I disagree with some of the focus the devs have chosen, I still enjoy Neocron and am glad it exists. I still find it entertaining and enjoyable which is why I contunue to play and post.

Once you move past the clan, inter-server, interclass disputes I've found this to be a fairly understanding community provided you're willing to give a little in trying to make a point.

So here's my thanks to the devs, mods and support staff for helping make a great and enjoyable game and their continueous work in improving this experience for everyone.

Edit: Gungnir hit a wrong button? Considering this post ISN'T edited [except for spelling?], just looks kinda funny to see your moniker on the edit line rather then mine - especially when the only thing in this post is support for the game and the people behind it. :)

TEBO
14-09-03, 05:37
Too little Too late

Too bad


Oh and ask yourself why the community - ha! - is like this.

THE GAME

Tazo
14-09-03, 05:41
*busts in* am i too late? i hope not!

*reads QDs post* wow... youre absolutely right! this thread is good, it should... *reads on*

Originally posted by FasterPussycat
KK is rude to their players and treats them like they don't exist unless you're German.
...oh... oh damn it all to hell. not again.
*walks out of the thread slowly shaking his head*

Alex Mars
14-09-03, 06:14
Originally posted by Tazo
*busts in* am i too late? i hope not!

*reads QDs post* wow... youre absolutely right! this thread is good, it should... *reads on*

...oh... oh damn it all to hell. not again.
*walks out of the thread slowly shaking his head*

This is part of the problem in the community, apparently an opposing opinion is not allowed. I have no opinion on the nationality issue and who get preferential treatment, I have no data to base an opinion on, but if a paying customer feels this way why is it wrong to express that opinion.

It is exactly the above attitude that is poisoning this community.

BlackDove
14-09-03, 06:53
Nice deadlock. I can't say anything I'd want to say because it'd defeat the purpose (that you're a carebear, attention seeking *PEEP* etc.) :p < all based on the time you posted.

By now it's hell already, and the minute people aren't getting paid/credit for their work around here, I'm sure they'll take the fastest way out and release the source.

Helen Angilley
14-09-03, 13:28
Originally posted by Alex Mars
This is part of the problem in the community, apparently an opposing opinion is not allowed. I have no opinion on the nationality issue and who get preferential treatment, I have no data to base an opinion on, but if a paying customer feels this way why is it wrong to express that opinion.

It is exactly the above attitude that is poisoning this community.
Yeah, true.

I mean you for example...you immediatly label anyone, that doesn'ta gree with your view, a "fanboy", or something equally inane, while moaning that this person keeps spouting "lies".

o_O

Zu (Pluto)
14-09-03, 14:32
I'm late as always in catching up with this thread.

Good post QD.

This forum is here for us to share ideas and express our opinion, but I think everyone would be happier if we all take the time to read what we are about to post before clicking the post button.

Zu

Tazo
14-09-03, 14:36
Originally posted by Alex Mars
It is exactly the above attitude that is poisoning this community. but i suppose being like "blah blah them doity germans get all the lovin and we get jack" (or like "blah blah them doity english/americans get all the lovin and we get jack" in the other forum) really makes the atmosphere in this forum flourish? youre contradicting yourself.

EDIT: accepting other peoples opinions is all nice and dandy, but i dont think it applies to crap such as this never ending nationality issue.

dmon99
14-09-03, 14:37
quantum : first off, great post almost had a tear drop there

to everyone else: i have been playing this game since beta 4 began. when retail hit, i started a monk on pluto . slith marn, he was tangent, then went to fallen angels, back before loms and faction changing fees, i went to clan NEO first then went to bluetech when the NEO merged with bt.

after a few months of playing i curiously made a charactor on uranus and left the monk alone awhile as the community on pluto seemed so hostile to fallen angels, and me being from the southern U.S. we are pretty much nice to everybody, (thats the way your taught to be round here),

well anyway, i started a tank on uranus named jack torse, most of the older players or should i say veterans know me and how good tempered i am , especially hivemind who killed me one day when i had no armor on and hitting up aggies in the sellers for some gr cash, and some of you might know me from just gr killing me all the time hell lear did it to me while i was healing from a chaser hit at cycrow, and the countless players that when they were low lvls that i handed out cash to like i was grampa or sumthin just to be nice to newer players. i handle dying in this game very well . i dont bitch about it i dont spam you with WTFWTFWTFWTF. i accept it and move on saying , yeah that was a good one, ffs im like the forest gump of nc.

anyway this is where im going with this.
i went back to playing the monk after about 8 months of staying away from pluto i went back found i was unclanned thought id join the thsc . after that i kept alternating between the 2 characters well i found that i enjoyed uranus more, still when i went back to pluto thsc had pretty much died so i left them also.

i figured id be a good guy and ppu for anybody and any faction for any of the caves around crp i gr there with no cash left after the gr fees and im immediatly gr killed by system shock by a way over ranked monk like 30 lvls over me .

i was very pissed off i took out everything all imps, spells emptied the gogu. and said plain as day , fuck this server im out. hence the deletion of that poor sad broken ppu monk, thats the kind of comunity that inhabits pluto if your fallen angel hell even your own faction would raid th lookin to kill their own members


but what i really wish people would do is stick to people that might actually be a challenge to you . if your ** 72/69 what will you accomplish by killing the ////17/17 players. hell for all you know they may have just been pk like 5 minutes ago

that kinda shit doesnt seem to be as bad on uranus as it does on pluto . and if and when a surge of new players comes in be more damn helpful to them cause you never know, the noob you pk in the sewers today might be the guy who gr kills you tomorrow field with nothing more than hate for anybody who come through that gr and prone to killing any more new player that might join the game . sorry for not using .'s and ,'s where i should have you guys know im a dumb hick anyway. and another thanks to qd for starting this post.

'Dizzy
14-09-03, 14:37
great post ! hope everyone will think this way anytime :rolleyes:

REMUS
14-09-03, 14:37
Like a few people here this is my first *truely* online game, ive played all the UT games Q2 and alot of the half life mods in solo death match, team and clan format, where there is never useually a collective forum like this one, and i believe mmorg forums are an extremely important part of the development of the game, but the incidents that you put forth to disscuss are in part due to human nature, simple as that really, tensions always run high when frustrated inderviduals log on from a bug that cost them a peice of equipment or other situations, other people feel the need to impose there will on others, that again is human nature. But what alot of people forget, and ive said this countless times, *its just a game*?

1) regular status up dates, we dont have a clue what you are doing KK and i would like to know when the next patch would be out proberbly more than i want to know about patch notes.

2) More input from KK management, only recently has there been any form of input from the gm's and the upper company heirarchy, if only we could continue the story line which i would glady put forth material for you to chop slice and do with as you please for free, as im sure many other people in this community would love to contribute.

Alot of problems are caused by a communication break down (weee i wub led zepplin) which is caused in part by the actual developers not listening to valid comments, thats why i think a player council should be formed.

A 1st and a 2nd reprecentitve of every class, that should meet every month as part of a think tank in a chat room (instant messager) or have their own private forum. And when somthing is agreed upon it should be released publically for disscussion among the other forum users.


anywayz very good post, i didnt like alot of the replys but never the less it was definately a worthwhile contribution to bring some ppl down to earth and to get others to pop their heads out of their ass's :lol:

hope all the stuff i said makes sense to u lot :p

Style
14-09-03, 15:17
nice post, you pointed out some good things with the way the community acts towards ach other. speichally helen, and im a nice guy :)

QuantumDelta
14-09-03, 15:52
Heh, yet this warning and this post is 7 months old, it's still a problem, and an issue now...

I myself, have dropped from what I had back then, I tried to fight it too, but there's something about forums...

Meh, The Devs know I support'em, and even when I deb/argue against my friends they know it's only a difference of oppinion.

I keep managing to come off as flamey.
I post enough to look like I spam, even though to me, I ain't tryin.

At least this warning, still stands as it was.
It's true though, the Devs have stayed distant from the community because they get swamped by us.
With "Can we do this?"
"Can we help with this?"
"Can you fix this?"
"Can you balance this?"
"Can you hurry the fuck up with this?"
"I lost my xx to a bug and i'm pissed fuck you"
and half a dozen other things.

All these things, being clingy, posessive, trying to control them, wont want to make them be near the community...

Sigh.

Erinyes
14-09-03, 16:54
Actually, what bothers me is what these boards/this game does to players.

I remember a nice sweet lady named <omitted>, who used to come here. She was mostly courteous and offered sincere questions and answers. She was somewhat poisoned by these boards,imo, and now she is vilified by many if she so much as says hi. And she is far from being alone. This place brings out the most venemous and ugly side of almost everyone here.

I don't worry about who runs the boards, I worry about what these boards turn people into. Almost every thread with a difference of opinon turns into a fight.

FireWarrior
14-09-03, 16:55
QD, I used to frequent the Red Faction portion of Volitons VBB... Had a really good bunch of friends there, but like you described in the Freespace forums, the whole thing went haywire till there was NO control anymore.

It's sad how a few dumbasses can make a large group of developers, admins and moderators abandon a game and community that, after all, enjoys the game.

We wouldn't be playing this game if we didn't like it and we wouldn't be playing this game if the devs, admins and GMs didnt care about this game as much as they do. It's a shame we don't tell them how great a job they do more often really.

Let's all try and put a pause on the complaint-posts and instead at least TRY to show the devs, admins and everyone else that works on this game, how much we really appreciate all the time and effort they put into this. They deserve some credit and we aren't giving enough.

Viduus[JBX]
14-09-03, 17:22
So far, these forums appear rather tame, compared to most MMOG forums that I've seen....
Although Stratics seems to be an exception - there's little to no flaming going on there - or it's stomped on so fast that users' heads spin...

Tazo
14-09-03, 18:04
cool, i missed the date display again

*me feeling st00pid :(*

REMUS
14-09-03, 18:12
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Heh, yet this warning and this post is 7 months old, it's still a problem, and an issue now...

I myself, have dropped from what I had back then, I tried to fight it too, but there's something about forums...

Meh, The Devs know I support'em, and even when I deb/argue against my friends they know it's only a difference of oppinion.

I keep managing to come off as flamey.
I post enough to look like I spam, even though to me, I ain't tryin.

At least this warning, still stands as it was.
It's true though, the Devs have stayed distant from the community because they get swamped by us.
With "Can we do this?"
"Can we help with this?"
"Can you fix this?"
"Can you balance this?"
"Can you hurry the fuck up with this?"
"I lost my xx to a bug and i'm pissed fuck you"
and half a dozen other things.

All these things, being clingy, posessive, trying to control them, wont want to make them be near the community...

Sigh.

but thats what they are paid for qd, customer is always right after all ^_^

greendonkeyuk
14-09-03, 18:20
One mans opinion is another mans flame.
one mans flame is another mans spam.
one mans spam is another mans opinion.


Message received however, well said.

Benjie
14-09-03, 18:29
In my opinion, the problem with neocrons community is not the threads that say. omgomg! I R hav the bestest idea EVER!!!!!!, but the people who dismiss it as being immature rather than accepting that perhaps, just perhaps, they are younger than 16. Maybe they are immature, but that is no need to flame them, or ignore them. Accept people who are different and lower your high opinion of yourself. There is far too much ego on this forum I think. also not everybody has a diploma in english.... perhaps they are shit at composing forum posts. I know I am!

by the way I am not aiming this post at any one person, rather certain people. You know who you are....

Tazo
14-09-03, 18:36
Originally posted by REMUS
but thats what they are paid for qd, customer is always right after all ^_^
just because the waiter in the restaurant gets paid doesnt mean its ok to be an ass to him.

QuantumDelta
14-09-03, 18:45
Originally posted by REMUS
but thats what they are paid for qd, customer is always right after all ^_^ Consumerism?
Heh, something I hate..

BlackDove
14-09-03, 18:50
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Consumerism?
Heh, something I hate..

Bah, carebear :p

QuantumDelta
14-09-03, 18:55
Generally speaking, part of the problem is coming from Consumerism, it seems to be (sorry guys) a very American thing, and it's starting to become a very English thing too.

When I go to greece for a holiday, do I see it there? hell no, and ya know what? most people, are much much happier, they don't even live in better conditions, but they're happier...

Japanese Consumerism is very much a question of "we expect these standards, which are exactly laid out to the letter, and nothing more." - Nothin like that here.

Heh, people take KK For granted, they harrass, Devs and GMs, and at the same time expect the Dev/GM Team to do everything else on their roster to do.

IMO That's selfish, ignorant, arrogent and just plain stupid(then again anything ignorant = more or less stupid in my book...).

Which is why most people see me, defending KK, trying to give input where I can on peoples ideas telling them that if KK come say "Sorry, not happenin" it's because they most likely _can't_ do it or can't afford to spend THAT much time on one thing, they wont get their asses flamed off.

Unfortunatly, due to the way most of the community acts, KK wont even come say "Sorry, not happenin" because they know, exactly what will happen.

BlackDove
14-09-03, 19:01
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
IMO That's selfish, ignorant, arrogent and just plain stupid(then again anything ignorant = more or less stupid in my book...).



Excuse me, but when you list and find through history a documented script that a horde mass of people was opposite to the sentence above, I will reward you with a cookie (western nations only)

QuantumDelta
14-09-03, 19:03
Sometimes I can't tell if you're supporting me or not, you need to work on how you make your points o_O

svenw
14-09-03, 19:12
Originally posted by REMUS
but thats what they are paid for qd, customer is always right after all ^_^
Great post QD. IT's still the same problem after all these month.

First: only the Devs are paid, most of the rest (GMs, Mods) are volunteers.

Second: the customer isn't always right. A customer has the right to voice critic but when he yells something like: "You blood ass....., You are to stupid to pi... " etc it is your right to show him the door. This is a customer that isn't worth your time. EVERYONE should have a civile tone in this forums. Whining and bashing isn't going to get you and the forum anywhere. If you insult the Devs they will stop listening to you even if you say something that is right.

Third: Thanks to the devs, GMs, Mods and everyone from KK that I missed. You are creating a great game. IMHO the best MMORPG on the market.

Fourth: To the players. If you have something to criticise make it constructive. Don't say:"I hate this" but say "I hate this because ...! And it would be much better if you did it like this .....". Think about your ideas. What would the do to this game and what will be the negative sides of your ideas. Will they lead to massive amount of work for the dev, exploitable, nerfing other classes or makeing your class ueber? Is there a way to counter the negative things?

Mantus
14-09-03, 19:15
Cheers QD! great post

hivemind
14-09-03, 19:20
Generally speaking, part of the problem is coming from Consumerism, it seems to be (sorry guys) a very American thing, and it's starting to become a very English thing too.
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I'm not trying to start some nationalistic argument here, but....

The USA has as much population as all of Europe, with higher broadband penetration and higher income levels. Unless this game wants to market itself as a European game (which it almost does, that's debatable), KK is gonna have to market to Americans. Americans expect certain things - one of them is service. GOOD, PROMPT service, in our timezones. And when we don't get it, we go elsewhere. We also firmly believe that the customer is always right. You can dislike American consumerism all you want, but we run the world (at least in our eyes), so if you wanna make money off Americans, and KK does want money - their monthly bandwidth costs alone must be crushing - you have to market to American wants and American tastes.

Or this game can continue to to wallow in obscurity and have servers (supposedly) capable of handling 2000 players each that are peaking at 500.

The Euro-centric approach, with all European staff and GMs, isn't working to get member counts up. And I know from experience that it IS a significant factor - I've known almost 15 people IRL who have played this game. We used to have LAN parties to play NC with 10 people there, all logged in at once. But when support requests are returned in German, the English version of the game is rife with misspellings and poor grammar, and lots of things have no text because they haven't been translated, there's a problem - and Americans (who are largely arrogant and short-sighted) are gonna notice. This makes them feel like second-class players. And to an American, this is intolerable.

And this game will never make money unless it's big in America.

Take it for what it's worth. I know many of you will just flip totally out upon reading this, but please try to think about what I'm saying and not just go ballistic because of your own feelings.

Dribble Joy
14-09-03, 19:22
Hmmmmmmm.

While QD is right about all this stuff, it may be a sad fact that this will do nothing to help relations overall. Flamers will continue to flame, Whiners will whine on. Some may be converted, and those who where nice will remain so, possibly even nicer. But in all nothing will really change.

I hope not anyway.
QD, you are one of those extremely annoying people that are just clever without trying, I love you and hate you at the same time. :p

enablerbr
14-09-03, 19:33
hivemind if KK wanted to make it big. then america isn't the market you'd be aiming at but the asian market. as their go big guns for MMORPG worlds. the USA is only a 2nd runner up.

as for KK not showing its face around cause it dosen't want to face criticisiums (how ever thats spelt) and flames. well maybe if it actually took the time to explain the reasons behind its descisions for changes etc.. then maybe some of the community heat would be calmed down and open to a more reasonable debate.

of course if all the forums are wanted for is to do nothing but praise everthing that the devs do. then take the AO approach and remove/ban on sight anything anti-kk or complaints about the game. this approach only becomes a 1 sided view of how the game is coming along. then again if thats only thing KK can handle then so be it.


Edit: MJS has a good excuse in my book for not showing up on the forums. afterall he's too busy finding a DoY publisher.

REMUS
14-09-03, 20:58
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Consumerism?
Heh, something I hate..

ok........... i have no idea what you are talking about :confused:

everyone is a consumer, i dont understand why you think people who pay shouldnt have a voice in a product, rather than telling people what they want, companys should ask them what they want. why do you think data collection is such an expansive and lucerative bussiness in this day and age?

BTW: havnt had time to look over this btw if dosnt make sense, i have some phone calls to make, so if im making no sense ignore it lolz.

REMUS
14-09-03, 21:06
Originally posted by svenw
Great post QD. IT's still the same problem after all these month.

First: only the Devs are paid, most of the rest (GMs, Mods) are volunteers.

Second: the customer isn't always right. A customer has the right to voice critic but when he yells something like: "You blood ass....., You are to stupid to pi... " etc it is your right to show him the door. This is a customer that isn't worth your time. EVERYONE should have a civile tone in this forums. Whining and bashing isn't going to get you and the forum anywhere. If you insult the Devs they will stop listening to you even if you say something that is right.

Third: Thanks to the devs, GMs, Mods and everyone from KK that I missed. You are creating a great game. IMHO the best MMORPG on the market.

Fourth: To the players. If you have something to criticise make it constructive. Don't say:"I hate this" but say "I hate this because ...! And it would be much better if you did it like this .....". Think about your ideas. What would the do to this game and what will be the negative sides of your ideas. Will they lead to massive amount of work for the dev, exploitable, nerfing other classes or makeing your class ueber? Is there a way to counter the negative things?

hmmm you didnt read my other post did you, you approched my post in a factual way, without understanding the meaning, generally people bitch and moan when they dont like something, like for instance hybrids, there was intense flameing and a massive fuss, do you really think that KK would of gotten rid of hybrids so quickly if there wasnt such an uproar? and you notice that they only did somthing when the forums where dominated by threads realteing to the over powerd nature of the hybrid class? the customer may not always be right but he is paying your wage, so you have to take into consideration his points and make a reasonable desision based on the facts he/she has presented to you.

I was not condoneing the act of aggressive behavior to KK staff becuase they pay for the privillage, i was mearly stateing that people deserve a constructive channel/voice that the developers can listen too, due to the fact they are paying for a service that kk are provideing

NOW STfU nUB :angel:

wolfus1
14-09-03, 21:36
gr8 post and coming from bristol makes u even better :D

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 00:53
Yea man a voice REMUS, but dude it doesn't automatically make KK our bitches -_-

BlackDove
15-09-03, 00:54
Originally posted by hivemind
I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and I'm not trying to start some nationalistic argument here, but....

The USA has as much population as all of Europe, with higher broadband penetration and higher income levels. Unless this game wants to market itself as a European game (which it almost does, that's debatable), KK is gonna have to market to Americans. Americans expect certain things - one of them is service. GOOD, PROMPT service, in our timezones. And when we don't get it, we go elsewhere. We also firmly believe that the customer is always right. You can dislike American consumerism all you want, but we run the world (at least in our eyes), so if you wanna make money off Americans, and KK does want money - their monthly bandwidth costs alone must be crushing - you have to market to American wants and American tastes.

Or this game can continue to to wallow in obscurity and have servers (supposedly) capable of handling 2000 players each that are peaking at 500.

The Euro-centric approach, with all European staff and GMs, isn't working to get member counts up. And I know from experience that it IS a significant factor - I've known almost 15 people IRL who have played this game. We used to have LAN parties to play NC with 10 people there, all logged in at once. But when support requests are returned in German, the English version of the game is rife with misspellings and poor grammar, and lots of things have no text because they haven't been translated, there's a problem - and Americans (who are largely arrogant and short-sighted) are gonna notice. This makes them feel like second-class players. And to an American, this is intolerable.

And this game will never make money unless it's big in America.

Take it for what it's worth. I know many of you will just flip totally out upon reading this, but please try to think about what I'm saying and not just go ballistic because of your own feelings.

Yeap, I'm going with him. On ALL of the points.

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:09
When i pay for something, i demand that it isnt shoddy. Im not gonna pay 500 quid for a television, and then sit back and say 'mustn't grumble' when it turns out not to receive channel 4, im gonna want my money back. I don't wanna be fucked about by the company. Lets not pretend that they aren't in this to make money (GMs and Mods excluded :)) So when we have massive fuck ups, im gonna rant, because by paying KK money i DESERVE to shout at KK for being stupid, and lessening my enjoyment of the game. Now i know everyone makes mistakes, and smaller ones are forgivable, but they're running a business here, and when (just an example) i can't get lvl 3 chips for two months, then there are no excuses... I definitely feel ignored, and that isnt good enough. If im an absolute cock, but my points are valid then so be it. KK doesn't have to like me, they just have to provide the service which i've paid for.

(btw, this is mainly playing Devil's Advocate)

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 01:11
Three months for Neocron is £18.

The Resturant I work for charges £60 for a two-course meal.

Just putting a little something into perspective.

BlackDove
15-09-03, 01:13
That's some heavy duty resturant :p

OK BACK TO TOPIC - :p

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:14
So, Charge me a little more and give me better service.

And then consider how much time and effort are lavished on each individual in your restaurant compared to Neocron.

REMUS
15-09-03, 01:18
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Three months for Neocron is £18.

The Resturant I work for charges £60 for a two-course meal.

Just putting a little something into perspective.

well lets see,

1) i doubt your resteraunt gets 2000+ customers a month
2) in a resteraunt the waiter and cheif have to cook what you want, and if you order steak and get a fried chicken on a stick you have a right to complain, in neocron we dont seem to get much of a say in what we get?

comprende'?

QD u know i didnt mean they are our bitchs -_- just rhey should listen to use more than they do, rather than carrying on their own sweet way.

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 01:18
Originally posted by Rieper
So, Charge me a little more and give me better service.

And then consider how much time and effort are lavished on each individual in your restaurant compared to Neocron.

Erm, we ditch them on a table, take their orders then totter off before giving them their food. o_O

Money doesn't equal good service.

Just look at SOE for fark's sake.

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:21
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
Erm, we ditch them on a table, take their orders then totter off before giving them their food. o_O

Money doesn't equal good service.

Just look at SOE for fark's sake.


Unsurprisingly i was implying that extra money was put into improving service.

and even the service you give to customers is a great deal more than what we get from KK... and remus made the point that they can complain when they get the wrong meal... Whereas we get screwed over, nerfed, imblanced and two months later KK sledgehammer the wrong thing....

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 01:27
Originally posted by Rieper
Unsurprisingly i was implying that extra money was put into improving service.

and even the service you give to customers is a great deal more than what we get from KK... and remus made the point that they can complain when they get the wrong meal... Whereas we get screwed over, nerfed, imblanced and two months later KK sledgehammer the wrong thing....

As I said, more money does not equal better support or service.

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 01:28
Originally posted by REMUS

QD u know i didnt mean they are our bitchs -_- just rhey should listen to use more than they do, rather than carrying on their own sweet way.
Read Patch notes 213? ...they're all things we've asked for (recently ish?)

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:28
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
As I said, more money does not equal better support or service.

Did you not hear me the first time?

ME GIVE KK MONEY ON CONDITION
KK SPEND MONEY ON SUPPORT STRUCTURE


You follow?

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 01:29
Originally posted by Rieper
Did you not hear me the first time?

ME GIVE KK MONEY ON CONDITION
KK SPEND MONEY ON SUPPORT STRUCTURE


You follow?

You honestly expect people to follow that train of thought? o_O

BlackDove
15-09-03, 01:31
Originally posted by Rieper
ME GIVE KK MONEY ON CONDITION
KK SPEND MONEY ON SUPPORT STRUCTURE

Wake me up from my cryogenic grave when that becomes a legal clause. Sorry reaps, but I'm with Helen on this one

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:32
Originally posted by Helen Angilley
You honestly expect people to follow that train of thought? o_O

You want to stop being dense and make a new point? or just keep on with your More Money Doesnt always equal better service point? Because i heard you the first time and explained.

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 01:32
Originally posted by BlackDove
Wake me up from my cryogenic grave when that becomes a legal clause. Sorry reaps, but I'm with Helen on this one

Excellent, excellent...one at a time, one at a time...

*Strokes a large, fluffy white cat. Named Boris. Because it's a cat. And white. And Russian*

EDIT:
Erm, I did make a point.

One that obviously flew over your head, therefore it's not worth explaining.

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:33
Originally posted by BlackDove
Wake me up from my cryogenic grave when that becomes a legal clause. Sorry reaps, but I'm with Helen on this one


lol. i wasn't saying it as a legal clause, im saying im willing to pay more money to KK if it would improve their support structure.

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 01:34
It's a kinda hypocritical point anyway reaps since ash is now paying for your account isn't he..? :p


One liner "debates" = bad =P


as for the fixes, what, what, kk are doing it, ffs...

Ya know, everyone in this thread for the last few posts has been SSC at some point for however brief a period of time (cough) LOL

BlackDove
15-09-03, 01:35
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
One liner "debates" = bad =P

Only carebears like you need to go into heavy duty text interpretation to make a point =P


Originally posted by Rieper
lol. i wasn't saying it as a legal clause, im saying im willing to pay more money to KK if it would improve their support structure.

Yeah of course, but that's NEVER gonna happen, because a rule like that makes too many holes to plug from the inside. And outside is everyone who wants to get inside (simplest way I can put it)

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 01:37
You should be banned for the repeated use of that word even when not used in proper context...foo o_O

And no...
People with intellect debate with more than fast heated exchanges, if you guys actually had to type you might think a little more and it might be a little more relaxed.
You, you haven't even brought anything to the table in here so bog off .. :P

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:37
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It's a kinda hypocritical point anyway reaps since ash is now paying for your account isn't he..? :p


One liner "debates" = bad =P


as for the fixes, what, what, kk are doing it, ffs...

Ya know, everyone in this thread for the last few posts has been SSC at some point for however brief a period of time (cough) LOL

im sending him money, i can't still play and have him pay for me.
and whys it hypocritical if im just explaining why i think i have the right to get angry if im paying? Surely it would only be hypocritical if i started complaining (and saying i have the right to) when im not paying.

BlackDove
15-09-03, 01:41
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
You should be banned for the repeated use of that word even when not used in proper context...foo o_O

And no...
People with intellect debate with more than fast heated exchanges, if you guys actually had to type you might think a little more and it might be a little more relaxed.
You, you haven't even brought anything to the table in here so bog off .. :P

Actually on the debate scale, I rate you pretty low because you're far too easy to beat and leave so many enterances I could send in King Kong through them to get you :p. Thing is that you prefer the old fashioned thinking system, over the one that kicks ass, and while your train of thought is correct, it'll lose most of the time to the likes of me when they get involved (lucky you, not too many of us around) :p

Helen kicks ass, but she's not yet began to comprehend the vastness that she can pull and ways to kill off a target. If she was able to do that, she'd be owning the forums :p

Carebear :p

Now stop getting off your own topic :D

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 01:43
...Forums aren't about owning people.....baka.....o_O

Rieper
15-09-03, 01:46
Originally posted by BlackDove
Ya bla bla bla i own, some crap about way of thinking, and more needless exposition...bla bla own


Seriously BD, we're trying to talk seriously about not letting this community going to hell and you go off on a tangent talking about owning these forums.

This is the exact sort of place where we dont need people who want to own forums. There are plenty of places like that... in fact, i could point you in the direction of some, but this is not the place.

Dribble Joy
15-09-03, 01:52
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
...Forums aren't about owning people.....baka.....o_O

Shhhh!!!

Don't let the silly man know that. It's fun to watch.

REMUS
15-09-03, 01:53
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Read Patch notes 213? ...they're all things we've asked for (recently ish?)

yeah i have to admit that is true but the other 212 were a pile of pants :D the only good things have been

hybrid nerf
tank speed nerf
server reliability and less client side crashs

proberbly missed a ton out but im knackerd and am having trbl focusing 8|

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 01:54
Originally posted by BlackDove
Helen kicks ass, but she's not yet began to comprehend the vastness that she can pull and ways to kill off a target. If she was able to do that, she'd be owning the forums :p


Pft, why do I need to own anyone when they own themselves? :p

BlackDove
15-09-03, 01:55
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
...Forums aren't about owning people.....baka.....o_O

You'd be surprised.

But this has a very slim chance of happening here, with the strict mod control (which is to most extent, REALLY REALLY good, I must commend the mods for it). And although I could try and find a way to beat it actually, I'm not gonna do it because I have no intention of trying to start here what I started ...ehm I'll just end it here. Helen although would LOVE to know my dark little secrets, and I assume she'd be really really evil with using them to suit her ends.

And reaps, to give it to you in a nutshell - the behaviour imprinted by the DNA of the human "kind" will never change, therefore people as hordes (ehem groups) will always remain to be...let's give this a nice term..."less-than-intelligent-and-comprehensive-at-all-times". Just check the PE PA thread. I'm no exception.

As long as there are moderators like Nidd, Forseti & company. around, the pressure will be contained. Once they leave - hello VBB(I assume only QD will get this last sentence, unless people memorised his first post in this thread).

REMUS
15-09-03, 01:57
Originally posted by BlackDove
Actually on the debate scale, I rate you pretty low because you're far too easy to beat and leave so many enterances I could send in King Kong through them to get you :p. Thing is that you prefer the old fashioned thinking system, over the one that kicks ass, and while your train of thought is correct, it'll lose most of the time to the likes of me when they get involved (lucky you, not too many of us around) :p

Helen kicks ass, but she's not yet began to comprehend the vastness that she can pull and ways to kill off a target. If she was able to do that, she'd be owning the forums :p

Carebear :p

Now stop getting off your own topic :D

jesus christ your a head case, i pawn j0o fowumZ.... yeah right i havnt got a friggin clue what you are talking about, there are rational trains of thought irational trains of thought and stupid trains of thought but what in the blue fuck train of thought are you on sonny?

Dribble Joy
15-09-03, 01:58
A group of people is only as smart as the stupidest person in it.

Marx
15-09-03, 01:59
http://www.se7en-x.com/argue/argue.jpg

BlackDove
15-09-03, 01:59
Originally posted by REMUS
jesus christ your a head case, i pawn j0o fowumZ.... yeah right i havnt got a friggin clue what you are talking about, there are rational trains of thought irational trains of thought and stupid trains of thought but what in the blue fuck train of thought are you on sonny?

Uhm, which specific points are you not understanding, maybe I can clear them up for you - daddy? (< since I'm obviously sonny)


Originally posted by Dribble Joy
A group of people is only as smart as the stupidest person in it.

I'd have to agree with that, to a certain extent at least, yes.


Originally posted by Marx
http://www.se7en-x.com/argue/argue.jpg

Wow...simply just...wow. I'm not commenting this - to the end of insulting both the poster and the moral of the image.

REMUS
15-09-03, 02:01
you dont have a point to your posts, becuase there is no rythem of thought, simply put its garbage.................. anoyying stupid crap.

*trys not to get sucked into being anoyyed with the man with a stupid name............ fails*



:wtf:

Marx
15-09-03, 02:02
You can't deny the truth of it;

Oh wait, your wit is sharp - and leaves me crying in those long lonely nights when I browse these forums.

http://www.the-iceman.at/board/images/smiles/rolleyes2.gif

BlackDove
15-09-03, 02:03
Ehm, just because you don't understand it, that doesn't mean it isn't there. And yes, I could have played this much more demeaning, but REMUS is QD's friend apparently, and that I do not want to touch that, out of respect if nothing less...a concept lost on some people :)


Originally posted by Marx
You can't deny the truth of it;

Oh wait, your wit is sharp - and leaves me crying in those long lonely nights when I browse these forums.

Still keeping the light on at night, so I don't come and own you again like I did the last time? ;)

Rieper
15-09-03, 02:03
Originally posted by BlackDove
You'd be surprised.

But this has a very slim chance of happening here, with the strict mod control (which is to most extent, REALLY REALLY good, I must commend the mods for it). And although I could try and find a way to beat it actually, I'm not gonna do it because I have no intention of trying to start here what I started ...ehm I'll just end it here. Helen although would LOVE to know my dark little secrets, and I assume she'd be really really evil with using them to suit her ends.

And reaps, to give it to you in a nutshell - the behaviour imprinted by the DNA of the human "kind" will never change, therefore people as hordes (ehem groups) will always remain to be...let's give this a nice term..."less-than-intelligent-and-comprehensive-at-all-times". Just check the PE PA thread. I'm no exception.

As long as there are moderators like Nidd, Forseti & company. around, the pressure will be contained. Once they leave - hello VBB(I assume only QD will get this last sentence, unless people memorised his first post in this thread).

I'll assume you're talking about the mess than an unmodded forums can descend into (in reference to the FS2 one)

And Why even bother trying to start it? why would you try and intentionally fuck up something that is being shaped into a kick arse community? I've seen forums fucked over by idiots behaving like you are, talking about owning people, and having little secrets... One guy i knew hacked the forums and stole everyones password. Did anyone think 'wow, he owned'? no, we all thought he was a complete dickhead.

Forums are a place where people can hide behind the computer, which is why it brings out the worst in people, and therefore why we NEED moderators. For the most part people act civilized, and it gives us an opportunity to communicate with people around the world. Without mods, i agree, people can be dragged into idiocy. So lets end this discussion about owning now, because i think you've illuminated the point that QD was making in the first place.

Goodnight mate, i'll prolly catch you on TS tommorow :)

Helen Angilley
15-09-03, 02:03
Originally posted by REMUS
you dont have a point to your posts, becuase there is no rythem of thought, simply put its garbage.................. anoyying stupid crap.

*trys not to get sucked into being anoyyed with the man with a stupid name............ fails*

/me dispatches the specialist "Pointing out peoples' hypocrisy and stupidity" spell.

/me gets a +7 on her pwnage roll.

/me pwns.

Roc-a-fella
15-09-03, 02:04
A WARNING TO QUANTUM:


URANUS IS MAD AT YOU

Dribble Joy
15-09-03, 02:06
Originally posted by BlackDove
Wow...simply just...wow. I'm not commenting this - to the end of insulting both the poster and the moral of the image.

Someone has missed the point/joke/large portion of writing on the piccy.

*munches popcorn.

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 02:07
This forum wont go the way of the VBB, that's part of what this thread is about..

You're a kid of a generation I want to see and have remained burried BD, that pwnz0r stuff is something you know I want permanently capped.
Wont do you any credit, wont do the debates and reasoned points anyone makes any good, and generally just pisses everyone off.

There are other people on this forum who tip into it, and it is one of the things that need to stop.
People think KK are damn near inhuman, at least, by the way the idiots around here treat them, and it's not fair.

I'm sure, if I held a company like this it'd be in my damn ToS that this kinda shit just wont wash, and, ya know, it might just be, KK might have the option to say "...uhh, fuck you..." somewhere.

I think they should a lotta the people around here are like spoilt kids in candy stores who're outta pocket money, and it needs to change.
As for KK - They have said, and will continue, to act upon reasoned "whines", they will judge what is a problem and resolve it as best they can, I suspect with that sticky about drone bugs up top a lot of those will be fixed soon too.
KK Do put fixes in, no, they stopped telling us everything, but it's human nature not to want to leave yourself exposed to people like...uhh this community.
There are those that are too clingy.
There are those that are too bitchy.
There are even those that are far too head strong in their own views.

I am not completely innocent of this stuff myself, but at least I TRY to be constructive where I can.
That's pretty much what I want this community to be, less friggin flamey, well, some times i bring it on myself, but I do love a good argument, so do others...
Sigh.



Originally posted by Roc-a-fella
A WARNING TO QUANTUM:


URANUS IS MAD AT YOU

This is constructive....how?

Rieper
15-09-03, 02:07
Goddamn, i would have like it to end. REMUS, don't bother, it's not worth getting into an argument like this... PM him on the SSC boards, lets not throw insults around :) (remember friendship guys?)

Helen, i have a low opinion of you tbh, but i apologize for what i said before, i didn;t really want to insult.

BD... I'd have loved to met you first on one of those other forums... flame wars kick arse in the right settings, but lets not do it here :)

QD, heres the original point of this thread ----> .








Heres where we are now ---> .

if i were you i'd try to salvage it, otherwise ask for it to be closed.

BlackDove
15-09-03, 02:09
Originally posted by Rieper
I'll assume you're talking about the mess than an unmodded forums can descend into (in reference to the FS2 one)

And Why even bother trying to start it? why would you try and intentionally fuck up something that is being shaped into a kick arse community? I've seen forums fucked over by idiots behaving like you are, talking about owning people, and having little secrets... One guy i knew hacked the forums and stole everyones password. Did anyone think 'wow, he owned'? no, we all thought he was a complete dickhead.

Forums are a place where people can hide behind the computer, which is why it brings out the worst in people, and therefore why we NEED moderators. For the most part people act civilized, and it gives us an opportunity to communicate with people around the world. Without mods, i agree, people can be dragged into idiocy. So lets end this discussion about owning now, because i think you've illuminated the point that QD was making in the first place.

Goodnight mate, i'll prolly catch you on TS tommorow :)

a) I was only refering to the verbal point of the forum "ruling" if you might call it that. Not hacking, etc. That's only what kids do when they've been owned verbally, so they feel the need to express it in a way they can actually manipulate.

b) Ehm, people (all of all) never EVER acted civilised in an unmodded area. Only high ranked specificcally selected groups do, and those aren't the correct representation. If you have proof of otherwise, please direct me to it, it'd be a first for me.

Dribble Joy
15-09-03, 02:10
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
People think KK are damn near inhuman, at least, by the way the idiots around here treat them, and it's not fair.

And thus these, very loud and prominent people make every one else view KK in this way.
More general suckage in the relms of numan nature.

Marx
15-09-03, 02:10
Originally posted by BlackDove
Still keeping the light on at night, so I don't come and own you again like I did the last time?

Yeah, you really 'owned' me by giving me what was no doubt a fake adress along with a shoddy threat.

*sarcasm*How bout you come to 123 Anywhere Ave Sometown, SS in the tiny republic of insert Country here - There I'll whack you in the spids with a golfclub repeatedly until you cry and repent your ways, at which case I'll call my lawyer and tell him that Donnie Darko is a good movie because its not as angst-ridden as I thought.*/sarcasm*

:rolleyes:

OMG TEH HWAR HAWR.

You keep on keeping on BlackDove, at least Helen is good at what she does - you still need some work.

REMUS
15-09-03, 02:12
mehhh ur right reiper but these ppl get right under my skin :(

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 02:13
Marx...BD....both of ya....PMs pls? this is one thread that really shouldn't be closed -_-

BTW, None of this.... and none of the point of this thread, is going to mean anything...unless we all disarm -_-

Rieper
15-09-03, 02:15
Originally posted by BlackDove
a) I was only refering to the verbal point of the forum "ruling" if you might call it that. Not hacking, etc. That's only what kids do when they've been owned verbally, so they feel the need to express it in a way they can actually manipulate.

b) Ehm, people (all of all) never EVER acted civilised in an unmodded area. Only high ranked specificcally selected groups do, and those aren't the correct representation. If you have proof of otherwise, please direct me to it, it'd be a first for me.

Regardless, you are talking about messing with the atmosphere of the forums, and that attitude is not welcome here.

hehe, unmod the SSC forums :) I believe that in 8 Months there has been one edited post in the NC forums, and while there are the occasional idiots there (less so recently) we'd manage pretty well without.

Also, i wasn't saying there was no need for mods here, im saying that the majority act well.. and would continue to do so without mods or ANY other idiots obsessesed with Teh own coming in.

Atm, we do well

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 02:16
SSC FS2 Was like that under our supervision as well....err..until suz'n'stang turned up.... -_-

BlackDove
15-09-03, 02:17
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
This forum wont go the way of the VBB, that's part of what this thread is about..

You're a kid of a generation I want to see and have remained burried BD, that pwnz0r stuff is something you know I want permanently capped.
Wont do you any credit, wont do the debates and reasoned points anyone makes any good, and generally just pisses everyone off.

Hmm I'm gonna have to ask you to back off on some points father, because on my "to screw with list" you probably are in the only rank as my own birth mother - that I don't pull the real shots on.

Try not to act high and mighty on me, because I assure you that - as I pointed out earlier - in a real shootout match, you'd lose by a great deal. As for your point, it is your objective to be loved by everyone - not mine. Also, I can tell you right now, your wish will never come true. As nice and idealistic it is, it doesn't stand a chance against the realistc situation that exists here, and that existed on the afformentioned VBB. Even now as you wrote that post, you didn't drink your own medicine, and you know it yourself :)


Originally posted by QuantumDelta
There are other people on this forum who tip into it, and it is one of the things that need to stop.
People think KK are damn near inhuman, at least, by the way the idiots around here treat them, and it's not fair.

I'm sure, if I held a company like this it'd be in my damn ToS that this kinda shit just wont wash, and, ya know, it might just be, KK might have the option to say "...uhh, fuck you..." somewhere.

I think they should a lotta the people around here are like spoilt kids in candy stores who're outta pocket money, and it needs to change.
As for KK - They have said, and will continue, to act upon reasoned "whines", they will judge what is a problem and resolve it as best they can, I suspect with that sticky about drone bugs up top a lot of those will be fixed soon too.
KK Do put fixes in, no, they stopped telling us everything, but it's human nature not to want to leave yourself exposed to people like...uhh this community.
There are those that are too clingy.
There are those that are too bitchy.
There are even those that are far too head strong in their own views.

I am not completely innocent of this stuff myself, but at least I TRY to be constructive where I can.
That's pretty much what I want this community to be, less friggin flamey, well, some times i bring it on myself, but I do love a good argument, so do others...
Sigh.


Yep, I agree with all/most of that. It's just too bad, it'll never come true. Time for bed. Seeya tommorow ;)

Rieper
15-09-03, 02:20
BD... Your attitude is mildly peeving... but im sure we can argue about this at some other time... like you i must go to bed :)

Gungnir
15-09-03, 02:28
--

Alright it's getting hot in here, cool things down.
--
Gungnir

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 02:33
....kay...didn't close it...o.o

I think I summed up my pov in the last major post I made....
most of the people in here are friends or friends of friends o_O
I don't think anyone really took anything in here personally, heh, bleh.....

Looks like Reaps and my son went to bed...but if anyone wants to further this go ahead...heh

Dribble Joy
15-09-03, 02:35
*Was going to say summat about stuff here, but gets the feeling he's just beiing annoying now.

Viduus[JBX]
15-09-03, 03:26
Originally posted by QuantumDelta
Ya know, everyone in this thread for the last few posts has been SSC at some point for however brief a period of time (cough) LOL

Except for me.

I kinda started my clan for FS2 before I actually started playing it... and never joined another.

And as far as the argument that the customer is always right - from a certain point of view that can be taken as true.
Here's a FERINSTANCE:

Customer calls waiter over:
"I ordered medium-rare, this steak is medium. I want a steak medium rare, do you understand?"
Waiter looks at 7/8ths of a medium steak, cooked exactly as ordered by above patron... yes, the customer is always right.
"Right away sir, you shall have exactly what you ordered."
Goes to kitchen, has chef make the 2nd order as quickly as possible.
Brings it to customer.
Customer eats 1/2 of it.
Waiter is clearing table:
"How was your meal sir?"
Reply: "Horrid. I specifically ordered my steak medium, but this was medium rare, at best. The potatoes were cold *insert more whining here* and I will not patronise this establishment again."
Waiter returns later with the bill. On it is listed the patron's 2 orders, at full price.

Yes, the patron was right.

And the restaurant is happy to see him go.

Some patrons in that situation would refuse to pay. At which point the establishment calls the police, who promptly arrest the man -- they don't give a rat's beeeeeeehind how he ordered his steak -- the waiter, having anticipated this mess, saved both plates with their remainders in the front of the house as evidence of the man's dishonesty.

Yep -- the customer is always right. Except when he's being unreasonable, whether he knows he is or not.

Bob Monkhouse
15-09-03, 03:46
Just a quick tip if you are ever in a restaurant and the food IS lousy.

If you REFUSE to pay the bill, you are committing a criminal offence, and the police can be called to arrest you for theft.

If however you OFFER a sum which you believe reflects the true value of the meal, ie say "I am sorry but that food was inedible. I will offer you 50p for it ", the matter becomes a CIVIL dispute between you and the restaurant. The police will therefore be unable to arrest you (provided you do not commit any other criminal act such as breach of the peace or heaven forbid assault)

This applies in the UK only BTW.

As far a NC is concerned, we all have a right as paying customers to comment on the service we recieve from KK. However all customers must consider their behaviour when making such comments. It is NOT acceptable IMHO to vent your spleen whenever you fell the urge. In addition, you have to consider the TYPE of service KK provides. They basically provide an infrastructure which we pay to interact within. This means that we must accept much of what KK does in terms of content and balancing. I do not believe we have a RIGHT to demand changes in these areas. From what I have seen if enough people make reasoned sensible arguements about a subject, KK at least considers changing it. Sometimes this takes a while to come about, but the Devs are not at our beck and call.

Just to illustrate the above paragraph, if you buy a season ticket for a football club, that does not give you the right to pick the team every week, or demand to have a seat in the dugout, or indeed insist that from now on the club plays rugby instead. If you and a group of fans want change, you can ask for it in a civilised way, and if it is in the commercial interests of the club you MIGHT see what you want. If you simply abuse the staff every week, you will quickly be banned from the ground.

The forums have improved immensely since the introduction of customer only forums. Most posters DO give reasoned arguement, and whilst passions can run high, there is less offensive behaviour IMO than there was a few months ago. No group of individuals is perfect (KK included), and provided people make an EFFORT to communicate and understand other views, I see no reason why KK and NC should not continue to go from strength to strength.

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 03:49
mmm..... *Nods*

Hai Hai! Good posts..
That was really well put bob, especially that last paragraph.

thewarrior008
15-09-03, 04:08
[Edited for violation of forum rules - spam]
--
Gungnir

svenw
15-09-03, 09:04
This thread is a very good example of the problem.

I certainly DON'T agree with Rieper but only because you don't like his opinion he get flamed and flames back etc. This is EXACTLY the behavior that leads the forum on a steep way down. Why do you need a Mod to calm you down? Why don't you offer your arguments and when Rieper doesn't agree either ignore him or put him on ignore? Think about your posts before you post if this post is neccesary and will lead to anything else than an increased counter.

Well, back on topic. The customer has rights, jeah. He wants immediate service for his money, but most customers are not willing to pay for the service. They don't remember that a lot of their money goes into fixed costs, liker server, dev and other stuff wages, I-net traffic etc. Service is just one tiny part of their money and how much service do you believe you can get for maybe 50cents or lessper month? If I take low wages I would think of about 4 minutes per month. Why did you think the premium servers for EQ charged 40$ per month? Rip off or horrific costs for extra staff? Or why is there a huge difference in the knowledge of the staff if you go to a small, specilised and more expansive shop than to a big media store. Are you willing to pay some extra cash for the knowlege of the staff?

For the examples. When a guest complaines about his steak he will say what he didn't like about it AND what he wants. Just saying "I don't like medium steak" wouldn't get you anywhere. Say what you want (bloody, well done).

Sokaris
15-09-03, 17:10
I'm going to have to read all this post later since I do not have time at work today to go through it all. however I did have enough time to read QD's origin of this thread and it's something that I have always wanted to say and fully support the ideas presented in his post and how things should truely be.

Very nice post and I am glad that someone has brought to light how things should be.

I always try my best to help online and do what I can when I can. Especially with new players. I have thought of creating a new character but never lvln him.. Just sit in the new player area and help guys get out. :p

But when it comes to faction chat I drop everything and come back to town and get parts, or armor, or anything for a fellow player.

You call it carebear cause I help but I call it helpful since someone once helped me get started it is only fair i transfer that to someone else new. And besides I am no carebear. . I am always willing when I see my op get hacked to gr there alone if i am the only one and take on 6 monks and a couple tanks.. cause well it's fun to piss off a large group with only one pe. :lol:

Viduus[JBX]
15-09-03, 20:08
Well spoken Bob.
Very well spoken indeed. :)

Celt
15-09-03, 21:09
I've been playing NC basically as long as you have QD.

Some points:

I dont recall KK ever meeting a deadline.

I recall several times being promised features in a patch, and indeed once or twice them being in the notes, but not implemented.

KK's in game support is the shoddiest I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, In eve, which has approx 3-6 times as many concurrent players as NC, urgent petitions get answered within 15-20minutes usually.
Conversely, their email support is shoddy, with over a week's wait in many cases, while KK's e-mail support is a mixed bag.

Eve's forums are run tyrannically, any anti CCP/Polaris comment/post is almost instantly DELETED, not edited with users being banned often. However, this means that devs can AND DO respond often on the forums - see http://www.eve-i.de/tool_devposts.php .


Hell, I regularly talk to the main CCP coder on irc, and several of my suggestions have been speedily implemented.


KK do not communicate with us often, and when they do they more often then not shade the truth.


At the end of the day, it's pretty simple.

To anyone who's used the internet a lot, they can probably already do this.

Learn to ignore.

If a customer gets pissed off at you or your actions, ignore him, and move on.

[/end rambling post]

Btw QD, we've all been on spammy forums, we've all been on vbb's(and ubb's, and ib's, and phpbb's).

If that joke was ever funny, it aint now :p


BD, I've been in several forums/communities that dont require modding/adminning, jagged alliance community(we had some very very good flame wars, no censorship, no adminning :D), edge of chaos online community.

I've also been in several communities that would have sank without good mods.

Ingmar, I agree with you on most of your points, except that asia really is the #1 mmo market :)

hivemind
15-09-03, 21:13
Yeah, Korea's probably bigger, but with my typically arrogant American viewpoint I choose to conveniently forget that.

And your sig's too big man, mods are gonna getcha... :angel:

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 21:38
VBB Stands for Volition Bulleten(..Yea I can spell that) Board.

The VBB Was the support forum, pretty much like this one, for FreeSpace2.

It was alright in the beginning, the first year...
After that, things started to decay, the occasional flamers, started attacking and overtaking the admins, who quickly receeded from the community (much the same as KK themselves have, however, here, something which is holding the line, is a) customer based forums and b) volunteer mods), things deteriorated.

Eventually, Volition, a small software company much like KK is imo, got absorbed by another company, the new management basically said "....uhh fuck dealing with that" and just shut the place down.
The servers still run in FS2, and FS1 for that matter, but there is no support, there is no official league (squadwar.com died), and the few remaining clans are basically either;
Amatures
Solid Introverts
Tired old vets with nothing but a golden past and a bag of flames for anyone that comes near to their skill.

It's kinda sad to see a community that had a lotta promise go like that.
And I see most of the same personalities and problems coming up here.
The warning was given months ago, the only thing that's saved this place is people like Nid, Forseti, Odin and the other people who give up what is effectively freetime to stop what happened before, happening again.

The mods themselves have tried various tactics to avoid this line slipping.

They've been very soft, only dealing with things that cause serious troubles.
They've tried to be extremely strict.
At the moment they've found a middle line, one that works a bit better than the others, however... there is still, so much of a distance between the customers and the company, and the volunteer staff that this it is painfully obvious this problem has not been solved in this community.


*n.b. I know Odin gets paid...sh :p

Roc-a-fella
15-09-03, 21:47
i hate people who think there intelligent and powerfull

QuantumDelta
15-09-03, 21:49
Puppy yappin at my heels ;)

Roc-a-fella
15-09-03, 22:01
Yes i am here to make everyone mad.!

btw quantum why were people spamming bad stuff about SSC on OOC, nobody knew

Dribble Joy
15-09-03, 22:09
Kick the puppy?

Rieper
16-09-03, 01:58
Don't take this off topic.. i really think there are certain posts in here that should be compiled and stickied...

Dribble Joy
16-09-03, 02:34
My post was actually more subtle than a flame at Roc.
Anyway, yes, I know.
If it gets stickied, the same will happen there, people will flame and the point will be lost (in more ways than one)
If it were to be heavily moderated, then the ability to say what we can there is gone, again going against the point of this thread.
Freedom is a double edged sword, blunting it helps noone.
I'd say more but I'm probably wrong and just being a twat.

BlackDove
16-09-03, 04:32
Originally posted by Celt
BD, I've been in several forums/communities that dont require modding/adminning, jagged alliance community(we had some very very good flame wars, no censorship, no adminning :D), edge of chaos online community.

I've also been in several communities that would have sank without good mods.


Yeah it might sound like that, but I was one of the few people that saw what the VBB actually was. I even doubt QD saw it because at the time he had other occupations and wasn't visiting (read:posting) much, therefore not burning his hands alot.

The VBB for what I could describe it, was the PERFECT place for someone to learn about human behaviour and the mentaility of a human being that are brought on by various different circumstances. The VBB WAS moderated (true, not as intense as this forum is, but it WAS moderated by "thq" personell Amaryth and some other tard' whom I can't remember the alias of - I actually still keep an e-mail of Amayth, where I got a "thanks" on a similar post I made which actually resembles the one QD made here as thread-starting :D).

Due to the fact it was moderated, it was simply and truly AMAZING how people got away with each and every single thread being a flame or off topic. Example - anyone who was new to the forums would usually ask for the usual question of "when is Freespace3 coming out FS2 WAS SO GOOD?" (and everyone who know develpers history, knew that was not to happen because Interplay and Volition split) I can just tell you that the newbies would NEVER come back again after posting their first thread. People on that forum weren't stupid. At least half of them weren't. They were all really really, REALLY intelligent and were able to kick-stab eachother in the back without the people in authority being able to close them down for it. That was skill in posting at its greatest, and sadly, the worst, because of the obvious negative nature. Most of those people mentioned knew modern physics and astronomy which I to this date cannot understand (that however isn't my interest heh).

I was on spammy forums (heh the rift at warpstorm owned at that) and on flamey/spammy forums (huge population, about 500 members online at all times) where I used my technique to excel and actually managed to hold authority of my own without actual moderation power. Yes, we've all been on spammy/flamey forums, but unless you can define it as the above, not the same experience belive you me ;)

Another thing. I was a complete and utter n00b during the VBB. Caps lock and all that - the n00b arrangment. Yet I wasn't chased away. Forums like that have a pretty good way of seeping out what's worth it and what's not. Only the right stuff survives hell. Some Darwinistic theory in that last sentence :p

Now Bob here strikes a nice point, by cutting clear of the fact that mods aren't here to bow to all our wishes and demands. That is correct. However not everyone knows that. I would take a bet that more than half of the people frequenting this forum, are here because they think they will be able to manipulate the game to whichever end they want to accomplish. Fact is, Bob, telling them that their opinion is worth shit from the start, would chase a lot of people away, because everyone likes to feel they're important. If you need an example of that, take as close a look as you can into the thread maker *runs from the cane, stop chasing me* :p

All of what you said is however true. At least I agree with it, and especially with that "nobody should be venting any time they want". However how many people - honestly - do you think will follow that? I'm willing to bet that in the course of the next few months, half of the people here who went and said "GREAT POST QD, YOU DA MAN", will either turn into what they're denouncing, or just simply leave. Mind that QD posted this good 8ish months back. Things haven't changed. When you dance with the certain type of a society, the society doesn't change, it's you who does (replaced the "devil" part from that proverb). QD's trying to fight it yes, and I applaud him for it, but I have seen that movie over and over again (no, not including myself), and it always ends in the same manner. In all actuallity, by observing his posts on this forum, he's already started to slip. He will of course never fully fall, but he'll be hanging with one hand in the end - most likely.

To quote Nietzsche, when one deals with monsters, he must be careful not to become one himself. QD will never become a monster. However what that sentence doesn't tell you, is who will win in the end. And big monsters, such as myself, always do. It is the nature of things. We're for the most part, all self destructive in one way or the other. Grim predictions, but I haven't seen evidence to the contrary.

As for the moderators, GM's, coders, artists, admins, - any authority in this movie we're watching. I would have to argue that having their job, is one of the - if not the - worst job they could possibly get. Whatever you do, you can't win. When that becomes the occupation that leads to your survival (money buys food, food keeps you alive), you are heading towards a dark pit one way or the other. If they're nice, people will want more, they won't be able to achieve it, and it'll kick them in the head. If they're strict, people will dislike/hate them, and again kick them in the head for it. It's a NO-WIN situation. The only possible gain from a GM's/admins experience is one that probably feeds the ego of "being in power" or just simply because "I couldn't get that other job I wanted so much, so I got stuck here." It is not a coincidence an authority's durability is for about 10 years. Everything beyond that is either physical or mental torture. Police deals with robbers and criminals every day, and is putting physical pressure on themselves (ultimately - death if you get shot with them cowardly weapons called guns). This kinds of jobs, that deal with people on a brainwave basis, is torture for the mind, undoubtably.

Look at Callash. Look at the PE PA thread. He wanted to do such a nice thing for the community, he is rushing his schedule to bring something that the community is craving for. He takes the time out of his day to announce the PE PA, make people happy it's in the making. What does everyone do? 10 pages of "YOU SUCK KK, DAMN YOU TO HELL" come out. Again I'm no exception. I said it how it is, the PA is ugly as hell (my opinion, and apparently 95% of everyone elses). I didn't take the trouble to care or respond to the fact he was trying to do a VERY VERY NICE THING. Then again I'm a heartless bastard, and since that's my trademark, I'm excused, but everyone else was probably just too stupid to notice the above, and went on with the flames, as if Callash just killed half their family. "YEAH, LET'S KILL THE GM OR THE ARTIST FOR TRYING TO IMPROVE THE GAME!! APPEARNCE IS UGLY, DIE GM, AND YOUR FAMILY FOR DOING SOMETHING I DIDN'T LIKE, KOS KOS HAX HAX!!!". Problem here is - half the people did that, just because the other half did. If I was Callash, I'd close the thread, and just said "Yea? Fuck you too, you'll get your PE PA when I feel like it, it doesn't say in my contract it has to be in the next patch". Then again I wouldn't try and be nice like Callash was to post that picture in the first place ;). He however is bound to his work and can't do that, because THAT would kick KK in the face, and it is a GM's/mod's position to keep that from happening. In all actualities GM's are working puppets for the rules of capitalism. They don't get to express much of their personality, as that is held liable by the company. If I was called in to be a mod tommorow, I couldn't moderate shit the way I felt like it. No, I'd have to do it in the way KK tells me to do it. That in itself is what keeps the mods tied down to a certain effect. Lawsuits are a bitch.

Beh, to end this, nobody'll probably read it anyway -

- yes, people need to grow up. These forms shouldn't deteriorate into what they're headed.

I just don't see it ending in any other way, than the movie I have watched over and over again. Mind you - in REAL LIFE and in my internet life.


Originally posted by Roc-a-fella
i hate people who think there intelligent and powerfull


Your Sig:
<-- this means im cool and i own you

Stop hating yourself :)

Marx
16-09-03, 04:38
yes, people need to grow up. These forms shouldn't deteriorate into what they're headed.

If anything... they've been getting better.

Earlier on - the forums got damned near ugly at times; now the worst thing that'll happen is the occasional flame war or threat.

;)

BlackDove
16-09-03, 04:39
Mumbly scares me - to be honest.

thewarrior008
16-09-03, 04:40
as u saw my post got closed so i will discontinue commenting lol cuz all isay is "bad things"

Viduus[JBX]
16-09-03, 05:06
I was a big part of the vBBq -- as a matter of fact I even taught a few people how to tell someone "where to go" in a polite manner... I think I came as close to inventing that skill as anyone in a generation can, without actually having invented it.... *scratches head - yes, that makes sense*

But as has been said before (and the reason my first post was a sardonic one to QD "still fighting the good fight?") every bbs system that is a part of an active community with differing opinions WILL degenerate. Point finale. The only thing we can truly control is ourselves, and again, as has already been stated - think before you post is about the only rule that needs heeding.

The problems occur because people think - yes... the problem is HOW they think.
Rather than think as if they were addressing people face to face, they think along the lines of "it's internet, to he|| with it"...

Of course, that is the measure of a man or woman.
If you can adhere to personal honor and manners even when you know you could easily do otherwise, and get away with it, as far as RL consequenses are concerned.

Personally, I tend to ignore the ones that don't at least appear to have a moral sense.

thewarrior008
16-09-03, 05:09
oh god my brain is full with steam now ,, and its all ur fault

http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/violent/sterb207.gif

QuantumDelta
16-09-03, 06:25
Marx is pretty right, this forum has gotten better than it was back then... heh.

@ Reaps for compiled and stickied
Yeap, Imma agree with that, a few people have said things in here that has really impressed me, and reading this again has given a lil hope back...

CerealKiller
16-09-03, 06:32
I make this post a little late but, good points QD, thanks for giving them a pat on the back, and not a slap in the face. I'm behind KK all the way, I want to see NC kick some serious gaming ass.

___T-X____
16-09-03, 12:44
where did you copy and paste that from ?

QuantumDelta
16-09-03, 14:38
Who, copy and paste, what?

Celt
16-09-03, 15:06
Originally posted by hivemind
Yeah, Korea's probably bigger, but with my typically arrogant American viewpoint I choose to conveniently forget that.

And your sig's too big man, mods are gonna getcha... :angel:
Nid already tried, noticed I had a new pm a few days ago, from nid in july ^.^


Btw, what's with the semi sarcastic anti american stuff?

fw pwnz0r you or something

hivemind
17-09-03, 05:30
It's not semi-sarcastic, it's completely sarcastic.

I'm a New Yorker.

StoneRayne
17-09-03, 05:41
fw doesn't play =p

Btw...gj for trying qd.
Basically, I'll just say this forum needs only 1 thing, involvement from Devs, as in posting actually. And to post here, you need patience. Just cuz you get flamed doesn't mean you should run away. If someone calls you a jackass you don't go crying home, do you? Just ignore the bastard.
And imo, if devs posted often, most of the "Fk KK bad devs I can do better etc etc etc" posts would go away...
I guess they need more devs or make the devs divorce their wives so they have time to post :angel: