PDA

View Full Version : Construction issues



Sanctioner
27-01-03, 00:04
I am alittle confused about the CST skill and exactly how much i need as i cant seem to find any reliable information that is not directly contradicted by in game char lvl's

i am not concerned about slots or any of that...but what i am trying to figure out is if there is truely a 150 cap on cst as i have seen people state...

I have seen ingame cst's at these lvls

150/150 with dex and int well over 110
203/150 with dex and int well over 110

now the 150/150 implies a cap....

But i know because i am a 150 cst that perfect is the higest quality that i have made so far....
So is increasing cst skill lvl to 200 going to bring me better quality such as artifact?....agian i dont care about slots only why i would go above 150...at the expense of so many points....

When i talk to people ingame it seems everyone has there own reason for doing skill lvls and i dont see and consistant reasoning between them.......

If some can point me to some reliable information and or give me some regarding cst lvl and its affects.....i would be in debt.....thanks

YES i read through the forums......already....but thats not to say i missed something that was in german

Blu_Haze
27-01-03, 00:09
150 CST is the cap as far as quality goes. Anything over 150 CST is only insurance for a success rate, rather than taking a chance on failing very high TL item builds.

Usually when something is artifact, it starts out as "perfect". Artifact is usually achieved after the slots are filled with mods that raise the stats of the gun. Once the stats are raised from the mods, then it is labeled as "Artifact".

Once your CST has reached 150 (the cap) you are at the highest quality build you can make of the gun.

Syncro
27-01-03, 00:45
Blu, that is not correct.

The absolute cap is different for every class.

This was all hashed over in two threads that seem to have since gone off beyond page 6, which means that our entire discussion went the way of the Dodo.

Let me make it simple:

A capped Spy will reach his construct quality cap at around 110 construct (taken from Pikachoad's tests, as well as Halbarad's).

A capped PSI will require more CST skill, and if I remember right, that will be around 135. EDIT: This is only because Psi Monks get CST skill boosters. The true cap is somewhere over 145, I believe. /EDIT

Rares do not follow these rules. Quality is random.

More construct skill only decreases the number of failures, so 150 is a good number to work from, since you will very rarely fail, once you are capped (for a spy... Not a psi).

Slot chances, as confirmed by Thanatos, are entirely random, but it is affected by the quality of the weapon:

A "shabby" weapon will have almost no chance at slots, while a "perfect/cool" weapon will have the greatest.

Each weapon has a cap for quality. You can *NEVER* build any weapon at artifact quality except for rares. Over TL 80, I believe the quality caps at 84%, but I could be wrong... It might be as high as 87% or 89%... I just don't remember.

The breakdown of skill effects on constrcution are as follows (if I remember correctly):

CST 60% DEX 25% INT 15%

That means that your CST skill has 60% of the affect on your constructed items, DEX has 25% effect, and INT has only 15%.

Now, if Pika or Halbarad could come in here and correct any inaccuracies, it would be appreciated. :D

Blu_Haze
27-01-03, 01:03
Originally posted by Syncro
Blu, that is not correct.

Well, I never said I was 100% correct :D

If I am wrong, which I probably am, then hopefully what you posted above is correct. I try not to mess with construction too much, just doesent interest me. What I posted is roughly what I've gathered from various threads on the subject.

Syncro
27-01-03, 03:05
Heh, not a problem... In fact, it's even less of a problem, since all of the factual evidence has aged off of the forums. o_O

What I've got down is at least 90% correct. The only errors would be a matter of numbers (Psi Monk caps, quality cap %'s, etc.).

I really wish Pika would come in and confirm my numbers. :D

Amsalja
27-01-03, 06:56
Then can someone explain to me why when i try to get an Enhanced Plasma Rifle built (i think its around TL 82) by a spy who says he is something like 170 with a 150 tool, the best i've ever gotten (out of at least 6 builds) was cool quality?

IceStorm
27-01-03, 07:05
This:

Then can someone explain to me why when i try to get an Enhanced Plasma Rifle built (i think its around TL 82) by a spy who says he is something like 170 with a 150 tool, the best i've ever gotten (out of at least 6 builds) was cool quality?
was answered by this:

Over TL 80, I believe the quality caps at 84%, but I could be wrong... It might be as high as 87% or 89%... I just don't remember.

For what it's worth, I'm a Spy, level 130 const with Special Science and const booster 1 spell (so +15 to const, 115 natural). On drugs (Destrol, Destrol Forte, Serundbat, Whiteflash), my INT is 93, DEX 87. I built ten (10) Enhanced Plasma Rifles (TL82) in a row while drugged up. All ten came out with 87% base stats. One had three slots, one had two slots (both signed), and the rest were slotless.

P.S. This was with the cheapest TL90 tool available (the one with 21% condition), so nuts to all you people with TL150 tools. :-)

Amsalja
27-01-03, 07:12
:D i see, shoulda read more carefuly. But then where did my friends Outstanding Enhanced Plasma Rifle come from? (the slots were empty, so a modifier didnt bump up the quality)

p.s. been playing for over a month now and i'm still a noob

IceStorm
27-01-03, 07:36
What are the exact stats on the weapon in question? A picture of the information panel and the full description of the weapon (by hovering the mouse over the weapon in inventory) might be good, too.

Mine were built "cool". I don't know if 87% is the max an EPR can be built to. The Tangent Plasma Cannon apparently doesn't go over 87% quality, but is TL84, so I'm guessing I'm still below my cap at this point.

Syncro
27-01-03, 09:45
Then the cap for weapons over TL 80 is 87%.

Welcome to the hell that is construction-mathematics!

Pikachoad
27-01-03, 21:20
Allow me.

1. Quality

A. Caps - items have a quality cap. Meaning once it reaches a certain quality, it wont get any better. This cap is different for each item, depending on tech level. For example, a TL 102 drone caps at 83%, while a TPC caps at 87%. NO ONE can build a TPC to better than 87% (thus why it is called a cap). The highest quality possible on building items is 94%, which is the cap for lower TL items. All items TL 50 and under cap at 94%. 50 is NOT exact, nor is it hard coded. It is actually somewhere just above 50, and that is just how it turns out.

B. Construction Level - ignore the 60/25/15 formula. Dont combine them together. Think of it like this. There is a point at which you, as a constructor, can build every item to it's cap. I call that point the 'cap level.' Your Dex and Int determine how low your cap level is. For example, a spy with 100 Dex, 100 Int should cap at around 110 Construction. A Monk with 40 Dex and 100 Int should cap around 140-150.

C. Success. To guarantee build success, you need double the TL of item. So a TL 50 cannon needs construction of 100 to guarantee success.

What this all means:

For QUALITY, there is NO difference between someone with 150 or 220 Construction (assuming the 150 is in fact capped. I dont think you can get to 150 construction without being capped... not sure what the highest non-capped construction is). As long as the constructor is at their cap level, all 'cap level' constructors build the same.

2. Slots

Any item that is built to its capped quality has the same chance for slots.

Repeat: if the item is built to best possible quality, it also has best possible chances for slots.

Int, Dex, Construction... dont matter for slots (except that they matter to capping the quality on a build). Slots are random.

This means: higher TL items have a lower final build quality, and therefore a lower chance for slots.

Overall: TL 220 construction is ONLY useful for guaranteeing success. Quality and slots are based ONLY on capping a weapons quality, which is always achieved at a MUCH lower level that 220.

If you have any specific questions, please ask.

EDIT: Forgot mods. Weapon mods increase the quality of the weapon. The more mods you have (i.e. the more slots you get), the higher the quality becomes. This is how you have perfect and artifact weapons that are build by constructors... lots of slots.

Syncro
27-01-03, 22:47
Thanks Pika!

I knew I had some goofs in there. :D

IceStorm
28-01-03, 04:48
Any item that is built to its capped quality has the same chance for slots.
I think this means I can stop drugging up. I wasn't sure if EPRs maxed at 87% quality, but it seems they do, and I can build them to 87% w/out drugs I believe. :-)

Couple questions, though:

- Is there a chart listing max quality on regular weapons from TL 50 to TL 102? My HEW Liquid Fires and Lightbringer FR-118's all build to 92%, and those are TL 53/56 items. It would be nice if someone had compiled a max quality list, or submitted to neocron.ems.ru the max quality items can be built to...

- Does INT/DEX affect success rate? If I'm a TL150 constructor with... 74 INT and almost no DEX, do I have a lower chance for success when building a TL 102 item vs a constructor with const 150, but 100 INT and 100 DEX?

Pikachoad
28-01-03, 04:59
Originally posted by IceStorm
I think this means I can stop drugging up. I wasn't sure if EPRs maxed at 87% quality, but it seems they do, and I can build them to 87% w/out drugs I believe. :-)Yup yup.

- Is there a chart listing max quality on regular weapons from TL 50 to TL 102? My HEW Liquid Fires and Lightbringer FR-118's all build to 92%, and those are TL 53/56 items. It would be nice if someone had compiled a max quality list, or submitted to neocron.ems.ru the max quality items can be built to...Havent seen one, but should be easy to build.
- Does INT/DEX affect success rate? If I'm a TL150 constructor with... 74 INT and almost no DEX, do I have a lower chance for success when building a TL 102 item vs a constructor with const 150, but 100 INT and 100 DEX?
Int and Dex ONLY matter in determining how early you cap construction. Success is based on your construct TL only... must have construct TL = double the item TL.

Right now, failures have NO consequence. No word yet if that is changed. So until you actually lose something from failures... I guess it isnt a big deal.

Sythlie
01-02-03, 01:49
The following data has been obtained quantitatively for the lower levels represented and extrapolated for the higher levels. It is, to the best of my abilities, accurate. If anyone can confirm or disprove, please feel free, as this information would be welcomed by this number cruncher. :D



TL/IDX | 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103
-------------------------------------------------------------
0 | 94 94 94 94 94 94 94 94
5 | 94 94 94 94 94 94 94 94
10 | 94 94 94 94 94 94 94 94
15 | 93 94 94 94 94 94 94 94
20 | 92 93 94 94 94 94 94 94
25 | 91 92 93 94 94 94 94 94
30 | 90 91 92 93 94 94 94 94
35 | 89 90 91 92 93 94 94 94
40 | 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 94
45 | 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94
50 | 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93
55 | 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92
60 | 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91
65 | 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90
70 | 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89
75 | 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88
80 | 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87
85 | 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86
90 | 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85
95 | 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84
100 | 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83
-------------------------------------------------------------


NOTES:

TL = Tech Level of weapon to be made, range from indicated value to one less than the subsequent table entry. (ie, 0 = 0-4, 5 = 5-9, etc.)

IDX = (CST * 0.6) + (DEX * 0.25) + (INT * 0.15)

IDX 103 values seem to be at the quality cap for the tech level in question. (For a spy with 100 DEX/100 INT, this would represent 105 CST)

Windwalker
01-02-03, 14:30
Originally posted by Pikachoad
Right now, failures have NO consequence. No word yet if that is changed. So until you actually lose something from failures... I guess it isnt a big deal.

Actually, it's even better than that...there is a -benefit- to failing in a construction attempt: Assuming you're in the middle of a string of building, you can -gain- an empty datacube! It seems that when you get the "Datacube destroyed" message, it doesn't remove the previous empty cube from your inventory, but it -does- place one empty back in the processor window. I know I've gained about 10 of these in the last few days...of course, I'd be more than happy to trade those 1450 credit away for a real way to earn INT at this point, but you gotta take what good you can find. ;)

Weaponizer
01-02-03, 14:47
Hmm I encountered the same thing too.

I failed a construction on some PB20s and got me empty datacubes for each failures. The parts didnt dissapear at all.

Drakor
24-05-03, 06:39
Wow.. I have learned a lot about CST from this thread. This should be stickied.


Drakor
Pluto Server

BarneyL
24-05-03, 12:07
Originally posted by Sanctioner
I have seen ingame cst's at these lvls

150/150 with dex and int well over 110
203/150 with dex and int well over 110

now the 150/150 implies a cap....


Everyone seems to have skiped over what I think was your actual mis-understanding.
When Trade skillers advertise their services there are two important figures, firstly their skill level and secondly the level of the tool they are using (you can't research a tl 90 Item with a tl 75 research tool fo example). Players tend to announce this in the format Skill Level/Tool Level. Hence in your example above both players have a tl 150 tool (the highest possible but also very expensive to buy). The first player has a construction skill of 150 and the second of 203.

Barney

\\Fényx//
24-05-03, 12:11
im gonna get mah monkeys to slap you for reviving such a bloody old thread.

I opened it up, read the frst post, then realised Blu_Haze replied o_O checked the date and OMG this thread is older than some of my family members 8|

Dont revive dead and decaying threads frfom 5 months ago because you thinkit should be stickied. The newbie help forum is the place for that/this thread

Maarten
24-05-03, 12:14
So you should ask those two contsructors about their INT and DEX levels because they could have both capped their construction skill.

I think we're gonna have a new line for Plaza:
"Capped Constructor with TL150 Tool working for tips!"

If this knowledge will become known to all people, the TL170 CST won't get all the customers because the TL150 guy will build the same quality weapons.

HeXi.
24-05-03, 15:34
What about tool quility?

any diff between yo's quility to cryton quility?

Lucjan
24-05-03, 15:44
Originally posted by HeXi.
What about tool quility?

any diff between yo's quility to cryton quility?

From what I've seen: none.

There was time where the better tool lowered the process duration a little bit, but tested that 2 weeks ago and there was no difference. I also made two batches of guns (100 pieces each) using different TL150 tools and didn't see any difference.

TonySoprano
25-05-03, 15:15
I, for one, am glad this thread's been revived. I've been getting a bit of crap from people who don't understand the formula and insist that Spy's will have a better chance of slots as they have higher DEX than monks. I'm at CST 164 so with that alone I can cap up to TL 98 (164 x 0.60 = 98.4). Add in DEX and INT and drugs and I can go up to TL 119. o_O

Monk power!!! :lol:

Shakari
22-11-03, 23:23
Originally posted by TonySoprano
I, for one, am glad this thread's been revived. I've been getting a bit of crap from people who don't understand the formula and insist that Spy's will have a better chance of slots as they have higher DEX than monks. I'm at CST 164 so with that alone I can cap up to TL 98 (164 x 0.60 = 98.4). Add in DEX and INT and drugs and I can go up to TL 119. o_O

Monk power!!! :lol:

no u just need more cst to capp the quality otherwise absolutly no difference at all :D

Chaplin
23-11-03, 03:35
Originally posted by Shakari
no u just need more cst to capp the quality otherwise absolutly no difference at all :D

This will get sooo closed for pushing.. :angel: