Random PKing in Neocron [Archive] - Official Neocron Forum

Spookie

15-01-03, 01:47

Thats it though. We have!

For every one member we get, the arseholes get 5. We can't keep up with "<name> is PKing! In <some random location>". All the time not to mention this is not helped by the amazing engine which lets them sit INSIDE boxes so you can't be targeted and we are not aided along by a SL system you haven't bothered to finished!

Yes we try to stop them but with clans like "canadian corpse rapers" And "My Clan Will Kill Your Clan"- Griefing? Whats that? :rolleyes:

Christ you are now getting quotes in magazines that it is rampant and out of control! Come on martin publish the bloody facts will you I want to see how much this game hasn't sold!

Why should I fucking bother any more... No thats it I officaly give up on NC completely! Here martin have your piece of undeveloped shit back I agree with everyone who has walked out on you (even sl33py, yes him!) this game isn't worth the CD it's printed on.

This is Spookie your last vet leaving the forums and letting YOU deal with all the fuckwits. Hell fuck that report I was writing to help you improve the game. You don't need the help you can run the game in to the ground on your own. To quote timmy from IRC:nothings gonna happen anyway!

"a highly valued NC long timer" - Not any more.

Welcome to Griefers Paradise!
Wait for me Derisor & co Planetside is way better than this!

Edit: Fanbois, stop humping Martins leg he likes it.

To quote Derisor:

1. Your company released a poor quality product. You had the vision but something is not right in your organization to have a product that unstable hit the market. Is it a fault in the code base, the project management, or just a string of technical failures caused by inexperience? I don't know but something is missing.

2. Your QA, for whatever reasons, is an utter joke.

3. Your attempts to balance the game have flown wildly all over the map like a Cessna pilot on LSD.

4. Your publisher botched two major releases and continue to blow it daily. Yes, even your buggy game would be played by thousands if anyone in the USA happened to actually know what Neocron is. Where are the cardboard standouts, the large display boxes, or the magazine adds? What in blazes are you paying them for?

5. Your client crashes more than every single other MMORPG combined.

6. Your servers lag so bad during the prime time playing hours that it makes them almost impossible to play.

7. Your plan file wasn't even vaguely followed, but rather put up as more fluff to suck in the masses. Fortunately I have a mutated gene on my 21st chromosome that makes me immune to marketing.

8. You still have content promised in release that isn't working and yet your focus is on nerfs. (Venture Warp, StockX)

9. There are more bugs in the game than in an entomology museum. Just how long do we have to wait before turrets don't shoot each other to death and actually damage players enough to be a deterrent. There are so many bugs that its not just annoying, its downright disturbing.

10. There are exploits that I know of that are still in the game 2 months after pitspawn and I reported them.

11. Customer support in game simply doesn't exist. Unless you know someone that knows someone that knows a GM, forget it.

12. Your forums are a sewer. (Though I give credit to Odin for cracking down hard on them recently. For what its worth, I think you are doing a good job trying to clean up this disaster. Edit from Spookie: Odin- you should have left KK when you handed in your resignation instead of jumping on to KK's pay roll!)

13. High level content is missing in a game where you can max out in one month without even really trying hard.

14. The soul light system has been botched up so bad as to be almost a waste of space.

The Owner

15-01-03, 01:48

-=CSM=- Is a pluto clan, DM any one of our members about a hired hit. We will nagotiate a price and hunt down your pk.

Just another alternative to complaining about PKs.

This is on Pluto btw.

Glok

15-01-03, 01:51

In beta I levelled up a pistol PE to 4 chevs twice with the LE IN. It was not a problem at all... I think much of the problem is vets telling the poor newbies to take the LE out right away because they will be gimped if they don't. Not true at all.

Eventually, I popped out the LE so I could use the TL63 Rapidfire SMG. At that point, I was well-armored, wealthy, and could hold my own in PvP.

So newbies... leave your LE in and don't listen to the people who tell you you'll be hopelessly gimped. It just ain't true.

Snarfles

15-01-03, 01:54

Spookie...NO!!!!!!!
dont quit, could just be a rash decision, take a while out...a few days...calm down then see.

lear

15-01-03, 01:54

I haven't got pked yet .. and i'm an ass! :D I haven't run out of fun yet in NC, because i'm with a good group makin the fun grow, but.. i thought neocron is a game that just gets better with updates, and addons and such, if so i think it will be fine :).. But if there will be no "free" addons and updates, and whatever is in the game stays forever, then im sure ill get sick of it.. but till then mates!

People who hate NC and flame up the board, don't yell at me , i'm just puttin a peice of my mind in, seeing too much negatism :P.

-lear
O_o

Snarfles

15-01-03, 01:59

Ive been pkd a few times...usually by folk well over half my level. I dont like it. I have no problem with PvP, which means killing for a reason, over Ops and such like. Not Going into the Aggie sewers, or even worse Lvl 1 sewers, to kill the folk in there.
Its annoying, it ruins the game for people and pushes them away.

Revs

15-01-03, 02:05

Why? because it's a post apocalyptic world and people in the future give even less of a shit about others then they do now. People are too hung up in the time sinks, farming rares, the utter boredom at high levels because of a lack of content, so often times the vet players aren't on because it's the same old same old.

You know something, in beta the good implants used to drop from big mobs, I think it took me and some clannies quite a while to finally get me a psi core, but after killing hoverbots and getting killed a few times ourselves I finally got one. It was great, it wasn't easy work and certainly not a cake walk (hell it's not like they were growing on trees) but there was a point in beta where everything was just perfect, like clockwork. We (the players) didn't do anything to screw it up, it was screwed up for us, and for reasons I can't put my finger on. I enjoy my clanmates, but I don't wanna log on every night to do nothing but farm rares and I think alot of the vet players feel the same way.

So the complaints about Pk'ing? they are from new players, being killed by moderatley less new players who can get no assistance from the older players cause all of us are bored and not logged in.

You know, I didn't do anything against you guys, I stuck with this game a real long time and I still believe after all that has gone wrong (no need to keep flogging the dead horse) that this game really can be outstanding, but the answer to keeping your players Mr. Martin J isn't more rares collecting, or an epic run that yields a psi booster (psi booster? you actually want to give a psi booster as an epic prize?) you aren't going to keep your players or stop "Player Killers" by telling them to "keep the le in" People at high levels are going out and killing at will cause we are bored Martin, bored. I log in these days, check the clan forum and am hardpressed to find alot of players on anymore. Plenty Of new players on though, getting almost no guidance from the game booklet or any in-game forum, they take the wrong turn, get off at the wrong subway stop and blammo, dead.

I don't understand, this game is your baby right? you have been working on it for so long, and it eludes me sometimes the logic taken with certain "improvements". I dutifully come to the game everyday cause I like my clan mates and still have fun with them but aside from that there is nothing in this game that I find interesting anymore. I have even gone so far as to routinely walk about with no armor, implants or weapons just to make things more interesting.

You can't hold off the inevitable with more rare parts farming, or delay things with epic runs, or discuss dome of york till we are blue in the face (you know as well as I it's a bad sign that to keep interest in the game you have to offer an expansion pack, and doy was talked about even before retail).
You gotta fix it Martin, you gotta, it's too good to let it go down the tubes. Put the fun back and you'll see the players come back.

I know i got off topic here a bit (well alot) but coming from the ceo "put your le in" isn't going to wash, make the game fun again, the players will come back, and the complaints will stop. I'm tired or reading about them just as much as anyone else.

nuff said

(sorry for the off topic rant, but I'm pissed)

Martlet

15-01-03, 02:07

Legion is a Pluto clan who's KOS list is made up of random pks and sewer griefers. However, in this battle we have run into a few obstacles.

First, the pks camp safe zone synchs and sewers. Therefore, they are always one step away from safety. The only way to combat this is to have a squad large enough to cover every single safe zone and sewer in Neocron. Not doable.

Secondly, the copbots in PP play to their advantage. They hide behind them.

I honestly have been looking for a solution. If we can catch them away from safety, we do fine. However, that rarely happens.

I'm not complaining, and we deal with it. I accept it as part of the game, however, it is a major source of frustration.

Glok

15-01-03, 02:07

Maybe a level check could be added to the entrances for inner-city hunting grounds so that once you reach a certain level, you can no longer enter a lower level area. Say 20/20 is the cutoff for the level one sewers, and maybe 40/40 could be the cutoff for the aggie cellars.

This would of course screw me a little, since I run aggie missions for faction sympathy (I'm 44/58) but it would just force me to run missions that are suited to my level.

I have no clue how easy this would be to code, however.

-edit- Yeah, this appears to be an arbitrary solution... but it can be correlated to the fact that you also cannot draw guns in the city. :)

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 02:23

I headed a clan based on fighting Random Pkers, to an exetent, Martin is right, to an extent Spooky is right.

My consern is that the pking has nothing to add to the atmosphere, all it did is create a sterotype on which faction/clan is the "good guys" and the "bad guys", which I am sure you are not going for.

I've been assured by a few others on TG that they are doing their best to RP, and add to what the atmosphere after a long forum dissccussion, but the problem still remains, as those parties now fight people for the same reason we fought those parties a few weeks ago.

The SL system was botched by the fact that TG (the rebel liberators in most cases) is everyone enemy, therefore making them the prime suspect in killing anyone who is everyone. But now that some people are trying to RP TG, you now see people with -faction symp with everything on earth (TG and FA included) in the middle of Plaza 1 and 2 asking for pokes after getting killed killing n00bs in the aggy rooms or sewers, then hopping over to TH to kill people at the genreps, after finnally ending the day by killing people in and outside MB, all the while people like us (the Senjin Bakufu) people now trying to RP in TG (and trying to change their image) and NDA and what-not fighting them all day, with no end, no reason, and no real reward (even if they drop their weapons every so often).

I don't call for an end to pking, I want the in game engine to better faclitate the atmosphere, which now some people are trying to work twords, but are being hindered by others who use it to their "kill kids for kicks" advantage.

Zander

15-01-03, 02:25

I agree with you Ryu. Pking abosolutely is a part of the game, and belongs in a cyber-punk world. I don't see how Random pking is, especially when ppl exploit bugs (inside boxes) to get their dirty work done. Those people aren't RPing no matter what they say.

I am current 34/38. This char has been pk'd about 10 times during his lifetime (about 2 weeks).

I am constantly hounded by random pk'ers in the cellars (gunman and aggie cellars) and around the vehicle depot.

This is fun HOW?

Funny thing is, the best place to meet cool ppl is the damn bunker outside MilBase, how sad is it that I had to go that far to find cool people that my faction is neutral with?

Z

Pitspawn

15-01-03, 02:28

Why are there so many pk'rs in Neocron?

PLAIN DAMN SIMPLE

At high levels the game is boring. Especially for capped or nearly capped players who have everything. Those who dont buy a second account go out and pvp endlessly.

Problem is KK is working on bugs and game balance rather than game content. Thats the problem. Even Neocrons site says that content is last on their list of to do's.

Input higher content for the end game (Mobs above rank 120, increased stat caps, new weaponry, ALLIANCE SUPPORT, better clan features and better outpost defence and features) and you cut down the number of ASSHOLES.

BTW Sad to see you go spookie. Another veteran player i love to both talk to and play with in Neocron is leaving. All my friends leaving the game is breaking me down. I'd say i have a lot more patience than most, but seeing my clan mates quit the game every day doesn't raise my hopes.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 02:33

Martin-
I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you're going to provide an all non-LE server, why not cover all of your bases and provide an all-LE server too? The people who complain about this would gladly populate that server, while the PvP crowd would stay and play where they currently are. Keeping them all together is only asking for daily complaints of random killings. I've posted on this before, and I don't see why this can't be done. It's the only way that you would cut down on these complaints. Then the people who wanted to RP could do so, and the people that wanted to PvP could also do so.

There was this other MMORPG that came out about five years ago that also relied on the “player justice” system. What they found out was there were mainly two types of people who played their game: hard core players, and casual players. The hard core players were the ones who played for hours on end, gained all of the skills possible, bought the best weapons and armor that were available. They were also the group that tended to run out of things to do and eventually move on to randomly killing other players. Then they had the casual members. These people logged on daily, but not nearly for the length of time that the hard core players did, usually due to real life things like work / wife / kids / etc. The problems started when the hardcore players started picking off the casual players. Then came the taunting, and some people actually got a jolt out of doing this. People started complaining that this was ruining their game play experience and some even started leaving. The company then reminded the players that they could ally together and do something about this threat. The problem with this was that the hardcore players were mainly the players with the characters who were capable of posing a threat to the pk’ers, yet they were the ones doing the bulk of the pk’ing. This soon attracted a few people who liked this style of play, and eventually you had people who were joining the game just to engage in killing other players. Out went a few more players, and eventually it got to the point that they had to develop a new rule set, because as it turned out, “player justice” for the most part, is a myth. I have several friends (and co-workers) who were involved as GM’s in this game for the first three or four years, and they said that what was decided by management was this:

Casual players made up the bulk of the members. It was (and to this day still is) about a 70/30 split. The main issue that casual players had was that they felt that they had just as much a right to play as they want to as the PK’ers had to play the way that they wanted to. They mainly wanted to explore, role play, and fight monsters. They felt that getting killed and looted was not worth paying a monthly fee for because the fun was being taken out of their style of play. On the other side of the coin, the PvP’ers said that it is a part of the game and to deal with it or leave. Eventually, they actually started leaving. Not in droves, but enough that the company decided to provide an arena (servers) where both styles of players could exist. One server had PvP rules, and another had mainly PvM, and contrary to what some disgruntled ex-players of that game will say, the games membership numbers turned around dramatically and to this day are on the rise. Not bad for a five year old game.

Myself, I use the LE, and with the upcoming patch, I have no intentions of taking it out. I have been randomly mowed down enough to know that I have no business keeping it out. However, I have turned on four friends to Neocron and three of them will not be renewing their subscriptions because they feel duped by what they bought vs. what they hear at the forums. Nowhere on the box, in the instructions, or at your website does it say that this games main focus is mainly PvP. Come to the forums and you get a whole different story. According to members here, this game is mainly a PvP game. That kind of flies in the face of the statement on your main page:

“it is up to you whether you want to experience exciting adventures or just lead a normal life in this virtual world.”

The latter portion of that statement implies that people who want to RP have a big place in this world too, but with the restrictions that the LE places on you, it seems that you are being punished if you take this route.

Anyhow, you should probably decide on how you want to market this game to reduce the player friction. Is this a MMORPG or is it a PvP-RPG [like Planetside]? There are distinctions between the two, and myself I was hoping for a MMORPG. Neocron is one of the most immersive games that I have ever played and I think that with a little more content in the wastelands and more additions like epic runs, you will have the best MMORPG out there. I really hope that you don’t keep going in the direction that you’re currently going because it feels like you’re pushing out the LE players. I keep my LE in because I know what the consequences are, but as long as you have the system set up as it is you are always going to have people who feel that the LE is punishment and that they deserve to RP as much as PK’s deserve to PK, and they will take them out. And they will complain.

I think that making it more clear as to what the game’s main focus is (MMORPG or PvP-RPG) would help this a little, as you would attract more of those that you would like to get here. Then once you do that, move in that direction.

Spartan

15-01-03, 02:37

I'm not sure how the community can police itself. I tried as a member of two different clans with that goal to do so with other chars. But it became too much. I love pvp and all, but whereas I have other goals as well that I wish to accomplish in this game, the random griefers do not. They log on wishing to do nothing but pk for their entire gaming session. I can kill a griefer 10 times, but 2 minutes later they can easily be back in action and fighting again. How can you stop a griefer when they die with no penalty? Dropping an item is not a penalty, everyone bags their gun anyway. Getting imps put back in is simple, they have mule chars or clanmates who do nothing but that. It gets tiring after a while, as there is no point, as the defender, you get no loot/benefit for doing it, and there are always more coming in. Now like I said I like pvp, and I engage in many battles a day, but defending PP/sewers/MB/etc.. is just an exercise in futility....
I would also like to comment on LE's. They are too restrictive. Not because of the stats, because of the community. I know that from day 1 that I play an MMOG, I am looking to join a guild or clan. Why? Because I enjoy the conversation between a close knit group of friends, and a guaranteed group to do things with. Thats what MMOG's are all about, and why they are so popular. If you keep your LE in, you are forever an outsider, you can never have a family. You either have no family and live, or have a family and die, to many that is not an acceptable solution. Now something would have to be done about outposts. How about when you create a clan you can designate whether it will be a pvp or non-pvp clan, and only pvp clans can hack OPs?

Adara

15-01-03, 02:37

Martin, I see two *major* problems with PKing in the game at this moment.

First, it is the attitude of much of the playerbase. I am by no means a Carebear, but even I get frustrated when I die six or seven times in an hour to various people as I try to level. And I am someone you'll constantly see tell people to get into clans, contact other people for help, etc, etc... the problem is that it takes away from the enjoyment of the game - and even moreso for someone who IS a carebear than for someone who is not. Many of the playerbase says "Fuck you, I can play the game however I want, if you don't like it, put your LE in".

Well ya know what? It's not about the LE, it's about the fact that this IS supposed to have at least SOME level of Role Play involved. And it's just not there. It's not there from you guys at KK right now, and it's not there from the playerbase (with some notable exceptions). People kill because they want to be "teh 1337 ubar Peekayer", not because they are hostile to your faction, or to you, or anything else.

The larger problem, of course, is with newbie and low level ganking. The Soulight system has nothing in place to stop someone who's capped from going into the sewers and ripping everyone in sight constantly. And some of them do. YES, I wholeheartedly agree there are ways to 'get them back', but there are not nearly so many ways to deal with the frustration if it just gets to be too much after awhile. And honestly, it's that much more annoying when you're killed by someone spewing leetspeak while you see a name like "pussyfart" or a clan like "Corpse Ripping Canadians" - I mean come ON. These things are in any way RP based how?

Ultimately, however, the largest mistake coming is the recent announcement that once the LE is removed, it can't be put back in. So now, if a noob comes in, levels up a bit, removes it from ignorance, or instruction, or just not realizing exactly how many times a night they might die - you're taking away the option for them to put it back in. And even people who *aren't* noobs.. I started as Black Dragon because a lot of friends did, and when I was in their clan, I was Tsunami. Now I left the clan, and have all but stopped playing because I haven't yet found another and have no desire to play for 60 minutes and spend 40 minutes of that time getting re-implanted and re-blueprinting/constructing if I happen to drop my weapon.

My choice to be BD? absolutely. But after the next patch, you've also taken away my choice to EVER not be in a clan, because I can't put my LE back in and get to a level where I can defend myself.

Removal of the ability to re-implant the LE is probably gonna be the second biggest mistake KK could ever make (the first being xp loss on LoMs) - you WILL lose players, and probably a lot of them over time. No one should have to give up hours of playtime and investment in their character because they can't choose to take the LE out one day and choose to put it back in on another. If there's an underlying exploit, fix that instead.

So.. um.. LOL Lotsa babbling.. short of it? PKing is a problem because of an immature playerbase, a complete lack of RP, and the fact that you are going to take away any option people have of using the LE if they ever take it out.

*shrugs* there are other exploits\problems\frustrations in PvP, but for straight rips, that's just how I see it.

:)

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 02:45

Well said Adara :)

I like PvP just as much as the next guy, and have been in fou PvP style matches, but in three of them someone ran through the area and killed us both... lame. We were in different areas each time too, and two were not populated at all... or so we thought. Each time we were like ?/28 and the guy who plowed us was like 40/54. So in went the LE, and in stays the LE.

Martin J. Schwiezer

15-01-03, 02:53

Spookie: I don't understand your rage. Your PM was the reason for me to start this discussion... and it was meant as a discussion, not as a statement about how great the current system is. I will ignore your personal rants and insults as I think that there were spoken in anger. I know you well enough to see past that post. Also you seem to forget that the article in PC Gamer that mentions a problem with random PKers got us a 81% rating. Not too bad if you ask me...

hoverboy911: I have to think about that "LE-only" server... but something tells me that this cannot be the way... or at least it is not the way this game was meant to be played. Why can't RPers simply ignore the amok PK guys?

Martlet: This may sound strange, but when the worst PKers abuse the system by quickly escaping into safe zone when being hunted... then it might be a solution to remove the safe zones entirely. Would be a drastic move, but something to think about. They are a little unrealistic anyway.

Pitspawn: About the high lvl content. It is true that there need to be more high lvl tasks. We are working on that. The storyline should also have branches that are interesting only for high lvl players.

Apoc

15-01-03, 02:55

Tired of reading all of this I have one statement:

Random PKs destroy the RPG of MMORPG

But why is PKing raising?

Cos the player are bored. No story, no forced faction acting, every n00b having a clan, OPs nearly senseless, Chars maxed in 2 or 3 days with support (hell what I needed a month for at begin of retail, even with knowing a lot, they make on 1 day)

Oh and another point, I only fight as a Merc, guess where my Symphathies are, gone with the Wind, from 100 CM to -55, by only DEFENDING.

Hey this guy is attacking Mercs in OUR Base, lets get him... *bong* Faction down again.

Pls help PKs in TH.... *bong* and again -10

And I play to long to do delivery missions again (made 100k with delivery on my first 2 days in Base until PSI was capped, and just waiting to see it raise... guess it would need 10 month without ANY fight)

Edit: Maybe this is a idea for you

Bring all ERs at once!
Clanwhipe.
Clan can only be founded after succesful ER.
And before joining a clan, you have to make the first 2 Runs, then you get a id that allows you to join a clan of that faction.

Tough work?
Hell yeah.

But then you think twice what clan you take, and sorry, but I am sick of all that City "I only want a cool App" Guys

Spartan

15-01-03, 02:56

Also wanted to add something needs to be done about soullight/faction. I am not a griefer, I only kill people who have attacked my clan, or are members of clans my clan is at war with. However over the course of time, I have -80 or worse with every single faction except my clans. I run around with -34 soullight every other day. And there is absolutely no penalty for me doing so. Soullight goes back up eventually, so I go hunt somewhere until it does. Factions don't mean squat because the clan's factions are locked, they never change and are what I get judged on. Only place I get shot by guards at? TG. But well, I was kos there before, I can still walk freely through City Admin if I please.

Yinyin

15-01-03, 02:56

LOL am I the only one laughing at the fact that Spookie just pwned the ceo of neocron???/ WAFFLZ

Snarfles

15-01-03, 02:59

hehehe..harsh...but Spooks does have some valid points

Pitspawn

15-01-03, 02:59

Martin i have every faith you guys are doing your best to get some high level content into the game.

But please do it as fast as you can. I dont care myself as i have quite a lot of patience, i could easily wait another month. But many cannot. I dont want to loose any more friends in neocron that i have grown to love :(

Even my enemies are quitting. Although they can be scum and have an ego twice the size of brazil, they are good fighters and i respect most of them. The only people i hated were those that exploited, there were only a few thankfully. And all the major exploits are gone now. Nice job on that.

VetteroX

15-01-03, 03:00

Remeber my post that cased there to be so much love and happiness throught the forums "Its your fualt for being pked" Well, its true. I am still almost never attacked as my capped PE on pluto, and wasnt months ago when I was leveling him. I started a tank on saturn, and he has been pked a big fat 1 time by HATE, and I pked two HATE to make up for it... End of story, final, if you get pked a lot its for one of two reaons 1) You yourself are an asshole and you deserve it 2) Your stupid and go to places you dont belong, or dont go into dangerous areas prepaired. If this is not true, ANSWER MY QUESTION!!: Why are both my capped and low level characters almost never attacked and you are? What seperates my experience from yours? Why dont some of you wimps stop being the hunted and be the hunter? stop crying about "scumbags" spookie, and get strong enough to kill them. I hear rants about certain people, and I just laugh, I have crushed some of these people you complain about as easily as you can squish a bug in RL... go to a seculaded place, level, get strong and fight back, stop crying.

Captain Timmy

15-01-03, 03:02

Mr Martin, i think a part of spookies rage was because you made him sound like a puny little carebear by using him as a example when saying that random peekaying might be a problem =)

Anyway, i think EVERYONE especialy mr schweizer should join the irc channel #neocron on irc.enterthegame.com that is run by the good folks of www.neocrononline.com it would be fun to have more people in our discussions about this game:)

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 03:02

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
hoverboy911: I have to think about that "LE-only" server... but something tells me that this cannot be the way... or at least it is not the way this game was meant to be played. Why can't RPers simply ignore the amok PK guys?
Heh, I dunno why they can’t. Honestly, I keep my LE in and that’s that, but coming to these boards you’ll find loads of people who take theirs out and chose to complain about getting PK’d. I think that an all-LE server would be a smart move by you guys. Taken from one of my various babbles:

*The All-LE Server Idea*
There would be no LE requirements/loot/xp differences on the all-LE server. Some have said that this can’t be done because of OPs but I think that it could. PvP would still exist on the all LE server, but it would come in two forms: clan vs. clan or a duel. In clan vs. clan you are able to PvP another clan if your clan leader has declared another clan hostile. These people will appear as do current hostile players and you will be able to PvP them as you currently can. As for OPs, I’m sure that this method can be worked into them too. I’m not 100% on how they currently work, but it would make sense that to keep an OP you would have to constantly have another clan listed as hostile AND [important] someone from your clan would have to have killed at least one opposing clan member with something like a 48 hour period. If you’re not in a clan you would still be able to PvP via the ‘Duel System’. If two players have a beef with one another, one can challenge another to a duel. This creates a temporary ‘hostile guild’ state for both participants. They will remain in this state until one of them is killed or one of them “synchs” out of an area. Also, vehicles on the LE server would work like mentioned below. When they get 100% damage, they become unusable until you get to a vehicle station and have them repaired. Until then they are unusable

I've been in this segment of the industry for a while now, and I know this will work :)

Brother Dirge

15-01-03, 03:03

Players randomly PK lower players due to the fact there will be little or no retribution by the victim. You want to minimize random PK'ing - ADD A BOUNTY SYSTEM tied to PK'ING.

For every noob you gank, your wanted level (and the appropriate cash reward) goes up.

When a PK'r is finally killed and the bounty collected, slap a LE chip into him/her and let it be non-removable until the player gains X amount of XP or SL. Let them be forced to live in society with a peaceful manner to other players.

Just a thought...

PS - I din't read all the posts in this thread so my apologies if something similar to this was posted.

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 03:04

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
Spookie: I don't understand your rage. Your PM was the reason for me to start this discussion... and it was meant as a discussion, not as a statement about how great the current system is. I will ignore your personal rants and insults as I think that there were spoken in anger. I know you well enough to see past that post. Also you seem to forget that the article in PC Gamer that mentions a problem with random PKers got us a 81% rating. Not too bad if you ask me...

hoverboy911: I have to think about that "LE-only" server... but something tells me that this cannot be the way... or at least it is not the way this game was meant to be played. Why can't RPers simply ignore the amok PK guys?

Martlet: This may sound strange, but when the worst PKers abuse the system by quickly escaping into safe zone when being hunted... then it might be a solution to remove the safe zones entirely. Would be a drastic move, but something to think about. They are a little unrealistic anyway.

Pitspawn: About the high lvl content. It is true that there need to be more high lvl tasks. We are working on that. The storyline should also have branches that are interesting only for high lvl players.

I'll do my best to put my input twords the responce you gave to these three people as I see it.

Responce 1: More to the point of the last sentance, the reason being that anyone who is of any faction will be Pked and not trusted based on the action of the RPkers, not the story. While killing a TG in TH just for being there, a runner will have also said "Down with Reeza" during the exicution event, and if asked, says he would rather fight Reeza, if asked why he doesn't join/make a TG clan (I tried this, and I know this doesn't work myself, nearly lost my clan) he will say "they are pkers, and kill everyone, making them the bad guys". Sounds just like what Reeza did during that event to me.

2: I agree with you here and have said to my clan that if I don't leave the leadership (not the game, you see, I'm trying to get NeoVoxx running, so I won't be on enough to lead the clan) to somone else by the time Neptune comes out, then I will move it over there. Why? Because then we can chase pkers from PP1 all the way through Plaza and kill them, insted of dancing thoruhg PP1 and Plaza 3 all night.

3:Nice to hear, my members are getting very bored as the rest of us are, and even though I'm not on much to level, I am close enough to understand what they must feel to be at the top and with nothing to do.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 03:09

Originally posted by Brother Dirge
Players randomly PK lower players due to the fact there will be little or no retribution by the victim. You want to minimize random PK'ing - ADD A BOUNTY SYSTEM tied to PK'ING.

For every noob you gank, your wanted level (and the appropriate cash reward) goes up.

When a PK'r is finally killed and the bounty collected, slap a LE chip into him/her and let it be non-removable until the player gains X amount of XP or SL. Let them be forced to live in society with a peaceful manner to other players.

Just a thought...

PS - I din't read all the posts in this thread so my apologies if something similar to this was posted.
Very interesting retribution system... almost evil :angel:

Danae

15-01-03, 03:12

My entire reason for playing Neocron is the people...Not just people I play the actual game with (and have played with in the past), but the people I've met in the community. When I see people like Spookie leaving, someone who I really consider a friend, it really breaks my heart, and it's got to make you wonder...When I see him as frustrated because I KNOW how much he LOVES/LOVED Neocron, it breaks my heart too...

I've left my LE in because I know what would happen to me if I didn't, people would kill me over and over based entirely on the fact that I've flamed them/been a bitch to them/or just have a smart mouth :) So I haven't experienced the pk'ing problems like many others have, but I've read enough complaining not only on the forums and in #neocron but on gaming sites to know that the system isn't working as well as it should.

I also know that the game is rampant with ignorant, ignorant jerks. I logged into Saturn one day to try and find some friends and the language I saw...well you may (or may not) know how I talk in #neocron but I was ashamed to see that in game...People calling each other "Faggots" constantly...that's not really fun imo. I logged off almost immediately...So I've stayed on Pluto, and honestly I haven't seen any language like that there, but I admittedly don't play as much as many other people.

Things do need done, maybe those of us who don't bitch that much get by while ignoring the bad stuff should stop ignoring it and start speaking up, I dunno...

Spookie

15-01-03, 03:13

sickman

15-01-03, 03:24

Some people say "Random PKs destroy the RP environment!!"....well thats really YOUR problem. Yes, YOUR problem, its YOUR bad RP thats making it ruin your fun. RP isn't static people, you have to deal with other peoples actions, good and bad, and make it work for you. Yes, thats a harsh reality to face, but it's all in how you handle a death. Don't take it personally, cause if theres any one constant to a random PK, is that its not personal.

The jokers that run around random PKing should just be thought of as batshit crazy freaks that need to be hunted down by other, slightly less insane killers.

On the non-rp side of things, most of these guys do it just to get a reaction out of you. They dont care what it is, just so long as you react. Don't do them the favor of responding. . Cough up a few credits for your gear instead of walknig right back into their trap. Just deal with the death, and go hunt elsewhere for a while. There are TONS of great places to level up in this game that absolutly no one ever goes to. Go exploring a bit, take a break from the levelling treadmill and just go see what is out there. Have a couple of beers, but whatever it is, remember it is just a game, and if you're getting pissed that some random guy just killed you, then you are probably taking things way too seriously.

Now, Reakktor really should rethink the idea of not letting LE chips be re-implanted. I don't really see what harm it causes, and if someone is somehow exploiting it, then it should be dealt with on an individual basis by the GMs, thats thier job after all.

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 03:25

I hate to see you go Spookie, but because of what you have said I guess I'll say my piece. I havn't been in the forums for a while, infact, the only reason why I came across this thread at all, is because I needed to get a link for something non-neocron related.

Reason being is more than just not having enough time trying to get a company up and going, its more along the fact that the community, even though some seemed to want to, or be able to change, has pushed me away a bit.

I was flammed personally several times, sometimes just because I did my best for the community, and beyond that, the ability to find people to have a good converstation with in game has gone down the hole.

I was kinda hoping for the whole NeoVoxx team to have this game and hold meetings in game, in the clan ap or my ap, or else where, but the over all communty more or less has prevented this, by makeing the game itself, in places, seem less of what it is, or can be.

Really the communty has lessend the game for me, having to deal with real ***holes outside of the ap in and clan chat has made my sessions in Neocron no longer than 20 mins and all spend sitting in the chair in game, as I am out of game. I loved fighting the Pkers before, but its just gotten repetive and useless for me, I wanted to be a part of the world of Neocron, not just a runner with rank and level, and all the real good community are gone or few and far between.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 03:26

Originally posted by Spookie
Sorry I've given up all hope in the game. I wanted to help, all of the beta crew wanted to help. You pushed us away, so we left.

Don't think you know us at all :(

Spookie –
I don't know you, but I've read enogh of your posts to know that you were doing some long, overdue venting. It just happened to be in one big post! hehe... I’ve helped launch three (four?) other MMORPGs and I have to say that going retail was the hardest part every time because of what happened to the close-knit beta community. Stick to your guns bro and give Martin & Co. a chance. With the stigma that the game as already earned (“…oh, that’s the new PK game, right?”) they will have to make a choice at some point. Until we get to those crossroads it sure would be nice to see you around and have your continued input.

Did you go off? Sure, we all do at times, but big deal. Everyone will get over it once we see some progress.

BarneyL

15-01-03, 03:30

The problem is there is no effective way in the game mechanics to fight back against PKs, sure a clan can try and hunt the PK down but most likely they are gone before you get there, particularly when you've waited for impairment to go away spent half an hour getting implants put back in GeneRep to where they last were, wait for synaptic to wear off, at this point they are either gone or you're dead because they were camping the GeneRep.
I would be happy if there was some sort of comeback to this, knowing that in some way the game would become more difficult for the player but it doesn't, soul light means nothing to most PKs even less if they aren't based in the city and as Megaman said last time he pked me (yes it's not just a low level problem I don't stand a chance either when someone shoots me in the back with a cursed soul while I'm at a vendors even if my PSI is capped) why should he worry about the faction loss he has his own TH based clan so the security bots will never touch him, in fact it's actually better for players like him to kill their own faction SL means nothing in tech haven and the clan protects you from the faction hits.
You seem to have a problem differentiating between PvP and PKing, I doubt any player in the game has a problem with fair PvP I enjoy the fights at Ops and so on but being shot in the back for no reason when I don't stand a chance fighting back I will never be able to catch up with the player and the game mechanics in place to make the game worlds reaction to these things realistic (you kill me my faction doesn't like you and the police don't like you) are a complete joke.
It doesn't help much that PvP in general is a joke for most players too, have you seen two high level monks fighting? it is basically impossible for one monk to kill another when they have a good shelter and heal, today I had two fights like this one lasted for over 10 minutes before we just gave up the other lasted 5 until a spy half my rank turned up with an uzi and I had to run for it to survive. Running to survive is something most monks must be familiar with by now, point a piercing at them and watch them die we don't stand a chance. Want to know which monk I've fought with that can do the most damage to me? It's my clan mate who has put all his dexterity into pistol combat has 100 weapon lore and uses an uzi with a dexterity requirement of 38, it does more damage to me than I can do to him with fire energy or toxic beam.
Combat right now is not about skill or about your character or a carefully thought out weapon set and armour, it's about some player who's just appeared on local and who runs so fast you can't even target you hitting you with a freezer and then ripping you to pieces with a liberator or gatlin cannon before you can get 2 shots off yourself. There's no fun in it, there's no challenge on either side and in the end the only looser is the player who doesn't shoot first (I never shoot first I don't want to kill everyone I see) who in my case has a 60% chance of loosing a module worth 40,000 credits and then has to spend another 15 minutes recovering from synaptic impairment.
Martin, do you actually play this game like other players do? Get involved in a clan and see how the relationships work (people don't defend ops by fighting at them they just threaten either to report you for exploiting or tell you that if you go near their op ever again they will shoot you in the back and camp genereps until the game isn't worth playing for you). have you tried playing with an LE in, it literally cripples your character within a day or two of levelling, effective weapons become more and more out of reach (I'm capped combat wise and if I put an LE in I couldn't fight anything above the odd leaper with the l33t holy energy halo and blessed heal I could use).
To be honest I'm tired of all the "it's a post apocalyptic world" excuse rubbish, sure it should be dangerous in some places but these "amok weirdos going postal" as you put it would be fast pushed out of society, would have to live in the wastelands would be hated and hunted by other players. In Neocron they run around killing people in the sewers, shoot their own faction members in the back and then happily go shopping in the city centre, if it's a harsh world then expect that what civilisation that does exist to be even harsher to criminals not simply to tell the victims "STFU N00b put your LE in and have absolutely nothing to do in game" and carry on selling ammo to the murderer.
Now that you can't find the location of a player how are we even supposed to hunt them down for revenge/punishment it's a big world to find a single player and even if they are found what is their to gain, kill them and screw up our faction and soul light at best. At worst you go face to face with a player that can't be killed, there are PKs it's just not worth fighting, I've seen them take down high level players in one shot (in a game with no one shot kills) I've seen them hit 10% health then as many shots as took the first 90% health do nothing to them. I hear GMs talking of seeing players outrunning them when a GM has the maximum run speed (apparently this is not enough to get a player banned), I can't comment on that one myself but I've certainly seen the highest parashock module in the game have no effect on a well known PK who admittedly is no longer with us for other reasons. Even if you do take the player down and they drop a valuable weapon, it's been known to then vanish and turn up in the same players hands and when some PKs actually loose an item of value?
Check this thread (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42365) for the answer.
Right now the players at the top of the pile in this game are the ones who want to make other peoples life a misery right now I see Neocron as a game designed for griefers at the expense of the rest of the community, it's a game which could be fun but isn't right now. I try to be an optomist which is why despite being highly tempted when I got the worldpay problem to just let my subscription go I took out another 6 months, I hope the game is a sucess but if things continue as they are all that will be left when I come to decide on renewing again are a bunch of griefers.
Then they will leave too because there's no one else to grief.

Barney

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 03:38

Sickman, this thread sums up my argument well

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&postid=430515#post430515

You can't RP "liberators from Reeza" when everyone thinks you are this way. Or at least, you can, fail, but the GM and the story may say otherwise, completely detatching it from the players, which from what I've been reading about Granite, hopefully won't happen.

Foyle

15-01-03, 03:49

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.

OK Martin - you asked for it :).

1.) Fix the cheats and hacks - all the players who RPK'ed me before the new year have since been perma-banned for cheating (an interesting indicator). A significant proportion of the PvP combat I have been involved in has had 'suspect' things happen (and yes, these have been reported). Frankly, I personally gave up on PvP months ago for this single reason.

2.) Fix the faction/soul light system - currently there is no in-game deterrant for those who think Neocron is an extended version of Quake. RPK's happen mainly in 'safe' or 'anarchy' zones where, allegedly, factions/soul light are affected. Currently if I wanted to 'role-play' as a Fallen Angel and hunt down the last people who killed me I'd mainly be hunting down Next, Twighlight Guardians and Fallen Angels and taking a huge faction hit every time I succeeded......... RPKer's don't give a fig about roleplaying and their faction sympathies, apparently I'm at a severe disadvantage because I do!

The heart of any roleplaying game is that a player's actions will have consequences - currently they don't (random PK clans and LoM pills reduce the effect of things like blacklists and faction guards just don't care if an entire clan is at a massively negative sympathy).

3.) Balance the high-end weaponry - has anyone not been killed by a Liberator wielding tank? (enough said)

I'm sure you are aware of and working on all of the above issues.

So I think you should have asked for input after they'd been fixed :D. The above 3 measures would go a long way towards resolving the 'issues' surrounding 'random' PKers in the game by greatly reducing the numbers of them.

And you do have to reduce the numbers of 'Random' PK's - without a sensible roleplaying reason for killing and being killed some zones (Tech Haven and Canyon City in particular) are no more than deathmatch arenas.

'Unsafe' zones are populated areas with guards and shops - I currently have to take more 'precautions' when going shopping or into a newbie sewer than if I'm going into a mutant infested wasteland.

Without roleplaying, Neocron becomes nothing more than an extended version of Quake or UT, and from my own purely selfish point of view, if I wanted that I'd be playing Quake or UT...........

Barbarossa

15-01-03, 04:02

martin,

I can understand your questions about why we don't form clans to hunt down PKers. Unfortunately, many clans that try and do that, fail miserably for one good reason. In neocron, the advantage is always to the attacker. They can GR camp, they can camp zone borders, they can kill you while you're syncing, they can hide in front of CopBots in PP1, they can run in, kill every noob in sight, and GR out long before any of us get the message. the clan i'm in, The Gang, is more than capable of defeating any of the PKers out there. The problem is, by the time we arrive its already too late. Sometimes, the only word we get of an attack is when one of our lowbies or even a high level are ganked 3 on 1. We're fighting blind against an enemy that strikes at will and fades away who also faces no challenges what so ever when entering our bases. TG should be KOS in Neocron, MB, and all the other 'faction enemy' homes, but they're not. And even if they were, our guards at MB suck so much, they'd do nothing more than cause a PPU monk to use mana to heal his buds. on top of that, we can't guard 24/7 because frankly, its boring as hell and there is no reward. add in the fact that we already know the damage has been done by the time we arrive, what's the point in killing them (we still do) when they suffer nothing more than a few minutes inconvenience? I love PvP, i hate these newbie ganking twats who onl win against equals 3 on 1 with first freeze.

A bounty system telling us when a PKer with a high enough bounty is in an area would be fine, banning TG from faction enemy areas would help, hell even putting strong enough guards at GR's and making copbots shoot them would go a hell of al ong way to make our jobs not easier, but doable. As of right now we're fighting an avalanche with firehoses, and losing badly.

i dont want PvP nerfed, I don't even want TG nerfed or players banned, I want a fair chance to defend newbies and clanmates and a fair chance to close for battle with these '1337 d00d$" because honestly, they aren't '1337' when its a fair fight. They whine worse than any carebear or noob when they get killed, and that, like Brew said, makes it all worth it.

Give me a way to proactively fight my enemies, and I will. Otherwise, it's just another Dien Bein Phu for us.

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 04:12

Well other than the great RP stance of the "Copbots are so oppressive all they do is police the citizens of their own people and no-one else", I have to agree with what most of Barbarossa says.

Unfortunatly I have to ask you this, why TG, arn't they trying to fight for your freedom? Don't they attack those who take money away from you? Fight the opprossive government?

Let move into something that can be done outside of event RP, how about attack and fight in OP Clan wars? Ever see many of the "big bad RPkers" do that?

You don't have to answer, we already know what the answer to all those, but I think the fact that none of that happens if fixable, and can be worked with.

Valhingen

15-01-03, 04:20

I remember my very first online RPG that i played back in late 96 early 97. It was Meridian59. Prolly the crappiest game graphic-wise you have ever seen but the PvP was UNMATCHED for a few years until 3do started messing around with some of the fundamentals which would eventually ruin the game for many. I played m59 for 4 years. I spent maybe 4 or 5 months of that time building up many characters. Most of the time was spent with Guild interaction and PvP battles. We had hunter sends that would dispatch as soon as we saw a Pker online. But basicially it was the PvP and politics that kept the game exciting for many years.

Neocron has WAAAAY better graphics and, imho, a much more fun PvP system, not to mention a very sizable world with which to explore and have fun. I think there are 2 issues that would help out with the current pk status. First thing would be to not allow any cityadmin hostile factions in the plaza and viarosso sections of the city. yet they are free to roam pepper park but must get there via the outzone to industrial A and B. Its only fair that cityadmin guards attack TG as TG guards attack cityadmin folks.

Second thing i would do is let people leave their LE chips in up to rank 10 without a penalty. This way the newer players get a chance to learn the basic mechanics of the game without having to get ganked by enemy factions or disgruntled ally faction peeps. I think rank 10 is adequate enough time for someone to learn the basics. Perhaps once they reach rank 10 they will get a mail from their faction leader stating that they are now a full fledged supporter of said faction and thus must accept the penalties of the LE based upon the financial burder it places upon their faction. That is when the exp and cash penalties would kick in. Just an idear obviously, but I think that controlling TG activity in plaza and viarosso sections as well as giving new players a few levels of rank to be safe without penality will help.

Valhingen

Foyle

15-01-03, 04:33

Psycho Killa

15-01-03, 04:38

The reason i like this game is because you dont kno what is going to happen when its more exciting that way.. Am i going ot get jumped going into tech haven?? or am i going to find that its empty predictible mobs are not exciting at all maybe the first time u explore an area but thats it thats why neocron is exciting you have to watch your back at all times.

I use to get random pked ALOT back in beta i havent been randomly pked more then twice in retail (all thew other times i as killed i gave them a good reason :D )

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 04:40

Originally posted by Foyle

Ick, was just reading back and read this :( .

The only way RPers can 'simply ignore the amok PK guys' is to keep the LE chip in.

Which means no clans.

No PvP at all (I don't think any players have an issue with roleplayed PvP)

Very, very, limited progression - and ultimately a rather crappy game.

Sorry, just ignoring the problem is not an option. Keeping the LE chip in makes for a very gimped game, with it out it's kind of hard to ignore being killed every time you go to the shops...........

Yeah, Roleplayed PVP isn't a problem, fighting for OPs isn't a problem, but somone who runs around all of the world of Neocron from his hours of 12 to 6 AM killing every player/car within a zone or two from a genrep is a problem, esspecially when its at anyone, no matter who they are, on a large scale, every day, over and over and over.

There is a clan out ther with a total faction symp in the deep negitives (like 50 or below). And they are held as the standard for that faction (along with the past actions of some), so it has really screwed with player and clan politics.

You see, it would work story wise if there was a faction for these people, like Anarchy Breed, then at least there could be things done that actually go with the story being set, and everything on my end would work out just fine.

Ransom

15-01-03, 04:42

Hi. Although I have never posted on these forums, I have been a player/tester of Neocron since the beginning of Beta 4. I could go on with how player killer characters are ruining the atmosphere in this otherwise (bugs and imbalances aside) great game, however others have already made this point for me.

Some steps to erode or dissuade RPKing could include:

Removing the faction tag from none clanned players;
perhaps it appears once a character reaches rank ??/30

Making it harder for soulight/faction sympathies to rise from below negative values;
murder/war should have long lasting consecuences

Remove penalties from LE chips;

Reinstate the Anarchy Breed faction;
persistant RPKers should not belong to the civilized factions, and should be able to be KOS in self defence without taking faction/soulight hits

Remove 'safezones'
nowhere to hide- however upon the death of a runner within 'copbot watched' zones a copbot could spawn (for example as the S.T.O.R.M. bots were in the offline demo) for 30 seconds using the usual routine of attack all with drawn weapons

Create a Games Master run police force.
An occasional (not griefing) event could be run where the GM would follow known 'criminals' and announce their location when someone is within Neocron/TH/MB

Anyway that is my 2 cents, however I agree that some clan/ player names should not be allowed. It would be a shame to enforce a chat censorship, but it has been made essential in the past.

RS

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 04:48

With the exeption of the first solution, the rest sound like good ideas Ransom.

The problem with the first one is that all the RPkers will have an exucuse to target everyone. Would be fine and dandy, if they had an Anarchy Breed faction. But because allmost all the Rpkers are above /30, everyone would just see TG as the "bad guys" still. I mean lets face it, why join TG, you can't be a freedom fighter, but you can sure as hell kill who ever you want and have plenty of people to fight. Thats why they joined TG.

But the rest could solve some major issues, and I hope KK is listening.

Cyphor

15-01-03, 05:00

NC is one of the most innovative MMORPG's out there, the best of the sci fi genre. However it does have its problems, yes it has a lot of bugs, many say the retail is just another name for beta 5. However it is one of the most stable releases for a MMORPG in a long time (Anarchy online's release for example!).
The main problem is that it cant decide what it wants to be, half the players say fps the other half say rpg. It is ment to be a combo, but frankly that doesn't work.
People are running around killing everyone in sight not considering thier lvl or state of health as u would in a fps, this doesnt work in an rpg, characters need a chance to lvl and grow strong before fighting higher lvl characters!
The le chip was a good idea but it doesn't solve the problem as it slows your advance in the game, so the majority dont want to keep it in.
This all means that the fps fans are stoping rpg fans from enjoying themselves, this may not be a huge problem at the moment as there is little choice in MMORPG's especially for sci fi. However this year sees the release of some of the biggest MMORPG's yet (litterally). These are games such as Star Wars Galaxies, its sci fi and just because of the licence its likely to be the most popular mmorpg ever (even if not the best ;) ), then there is Everquest 2 which although not sci fi it is the sequal to the biggest mmorpg to date, also eve:the second genisis, sci fi and litterally the largest mmorpg to date as it will incorporate linked servers! Ok there are many more but the point is NC is already failing to fill its small servers and with such big games being released, it is going to find it hard to gain new customers! Also when these games come out if the probs with NC aren,t fixed it will draw alot of the NC customer base.

PVP is one of the major draw backs as in a mmorpg if it is not implimented properly then it can cause huge ingame probs as it has in nc (PKing). It stops the game from being fun because of a small population of children (mabey a solution would be to give the game an adult 18 rating, hehe ;) ) but seriously there are many ways around this some of them easy to incorporate.

Alot are listed here :

http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41527

One of the best i thought was to flag (put a symbol next to their name) players who kill another player too far bellow their lvl etc that way u let it up to the players to decide what to do with them, not trade with them etc

PKing the defenceless is the same as exploitation, your taking advantage, you ban people for explotitation, so a solution needs to be found for pk( perhalps not so harsh)

A solution has to be found for this and many other probs otherwise NC life will be short, i for one hope this isn't true but something needs to be done!!
o_O

Martin J. Schwiezer

15-01-03, 05:03

I really like the idea from Valhingen to remove the LE punishment until a certain level.

Martlet

15-01-03, 05:25

Now I'm not saying everything about this was good, it had many drawbacks, but being able to track locations from the citycom made hunting pks and heading them off a more viable solution.

VerbalPEZ

15-01-03, 05:42

Martin... great post...

PLEASE dont make this carebear... I played UO in its early days.. these people have NO idea what harsh is ;) If you died your corpes was ENTIRELY lootable. The first response is dead on. I am actually fairly high level but since I am a droner I cant fight in doors. So I run up to the PK and telling them how "I like it rough" and punch them a lot :) They leave :) eventually. Course I REALLY love it when they say I am harrassing them after they killed my newbie clannies. They tell me that killing me all the time while shopping is ok but pestering them is not :) -just shows their level of intelegence- Although this does speak volumes of how little dieing actually affects anyone. :wtf:

I kinda like Ransom's ideas... All are unrefined but pretty good... Especially about the -asshole- tag... People who gank murderers like megaman should have no penalties. Not sure how to measure that though...

Not to sound cheesy, but a powerful story line would help inspire some comaraderie amongst allies... in (yes I am bringing them up again) DAoC you could not even talk to enamies... It was ALL about the killing. Neocron is a much less defined line where I find myself often teaming with NDA's while I am an FA (most NDA are pretty cool guys). Not sure how to solve this...

There should be more places to hunt and more reason to kill FACTION enemies (not just anyone) to inspre more reason to be territorial.

I can speak from experience as it relates to inside TH. I worry about FA PKs just as much as I do anyothers in TH. Maybe the security should have a bit more of a memory on it. for example... When Twink goes on one of his many FA lowbie killing sprees in TH, the bots remember. Then when he comes back to TH, he cant go anywhere without constantly being irritated by SecBots.

added - one more thing... Maybe hacking citycoms can get that old info back like player locations as mentioned above by Martlet to make Bounty Hunting more viable. In addition we would need a mechanism IN GAME for measuring the amount of distress the Bounty Hunter caused the PK.

Berzerker

15-01-03, 05:54

A lot of frustration comes from not being able to do much about it Martin. If the murderers could be cought and punished, then there is closhure on the PK. At the moment as stated already in the thread, it is almost exclusivly done around safe zones for easy escape.

It can be fixed in one area of Neocron. Pepper Park, by simply losing the copbots or making them only shoot at bsl. Btw this solution in that particular area, will also make the peaple that actually like to fight happy. So you get a bonus.

As for the sewers all we can really do is make a Neocron most wanted poster.

What about whoever is on the most wanted list, can be looted of all gear.

Balsak

15-01-03, 05:59

PKing is good.
I rarely get griefed. Thats not to say I never get killed by someone but some people make it sound like their whole day is spent getting killed by the so called griefers. When I do get killed I just go to my app and get my shit back. Figure out what I lost and go replace it. I do not go back and bitch and whine and beg for whatever I dropped back.

I say this. There are spots that the "griefers" hang out. You should learn these spots and stay away until you can go there. If you do get killed by someone DO NOT direct them calling them names and everything else. That just makes you more of a target for the next time you are spotted. If you get killed in a place DO NOT reappear there and then wonder why you got killed again. Go back to your apartment and get your backpack through the genrep 9it isnt alot of money people) and go somewhere else to hunt.
People ask for where else to level except the aggy cellars. Well there are many many places to hunt in the world. Go explore and find them.

Pepper Park
Just stay the fuck out unless you really need to go in there. Its a known HOTSPOT. If you go in there and get killed well thats just too bad for you.

As for the safezone jumping. Please remove the safezones. Let copbots shoot TG on site. But make the cops have to shoot in a straight line. Not this toxic beam effect that hits you around corners and under shelter.

LaZeRiS

15-01-03, 05:59

Well I will tip my hat off to Martin for this post.

ZoneseeK

15-01-03, 06:00

Random PKing is usually mixed up with PKing with a PURPOSE.

For example...the "Leader" of some clan made an ass out of me in Plaza a few days ago with his cronies...yeah it was a 4v1 flame fest on my small "clan" (really just a few friends). This pissed me off so now they are KoS to us wherever we go.

Over the past few days, we have dropped roughly 10 of thier clan members. Im sure these guys have no idea why they were dropped, especially by people of an allied faction, so they most likely think its a random pk. The fact is, its not.

So yeah, everyone should just deal with random pking it happens wow I have been random pk'd more times then I can count, you wont see me complain about it UNLESS there was a bug/exploit involved.

Drake6k

15-01-03, 06:11

I guess with out any other way to fix it I'm going to agree with Martin.

One problem is that cellar-4 in plaza-2 (pluto) has become the place PKers live... You cant go in EVER... This really sucks for my new character and isn't to fair. I dont understand how the minds of these players work.. How sick do you have to be to gank everyone you see in one spot... I dont care if they RANDOM PK but camping one spot and not letting people ever go in is unfair and just asshole-ish.

ZoneseeK

15-01-03, 06:16

Originally posted by Drake6k
I guess with out any other way to fix it I'm going to agree with Martin.

One problem is that cellar-4 in plaza-2 (pluto) has become the place PKers live... You cant go in EVER... This really sucks for my new character and isn't to fair. I dont understand how the minds of these players work.. How sick do you have to be to gank everyone you see in one spot... I dont care if they RANDOM PK but camping one spot and not letting people ever go in is unfair and just asshole-ish.

That happened today and about 10 minutes after like 10 55+ merc/admin/tangent players showed up and cleared the pks out it was interesting...

I don't see why copbots are even there....seriously, 3 or 4 neg. soul light TGs came out of the sewer after probably killing 4 or 5 city admin n00bs and the copbots just stand about. Meanwhile if ANY hostile faction goes near a TG guard they let loose. Bullshit.

RazorX

15-01-03, 07:18

Here's my input. Martin. (Remember, you asked for it.)

Remove about 80% of the Copbots in Pepper Park 1, 2, and 3.
The Area description on the Main web site does not fit what we have in the game. It's ironic that since you allow freedom to PvP, and are so adamant about it staying that way, that you would restrict it so tightly through using Game Devices, in the only zones in Neocron where it's possible to draw a weapon.

If you die with -SL, 100% of Quick Belt items drop. In a perfect game, players would be 100% lootable, anyway, but.... This would steer PvP'rs into actually fighting Faction enemies, instead of the "I don't care what faction they are" attitude of alot of people nowdays. Faction choice would have meaning. Black Dragon and Tsunami could slug it out for control of Pepper Park. Tsunami could rough up some City Admin boys who came slummin'.

Perhaps looking into not allowing a player to join a clan if that clan is in a Faction that is a Faction enemy of the player's original Faction. Or actually making it so that the Minimum Faction Sympathy to Join was static.

If anything else comes to mind, I'll let you know.

Oh, almost forgot. Where the hell are the TL 30 Assault Rifles?

Bardlebee

15-01-03, 07:27

i agree with martin and i wonder why it hasnt happened...

boy thisll be my first post in a while 0_0

kbned

15-01-03, 07:28

you guys exaggerate too much. just today i heard there were tg killing everyone in the cellar, i went down to see who it was and there was no one there. well, there were some people leveling and some from the city clans came to kill the pkers that didnt exist so shotty and me killed them. (i was fighting at 4 fps cause i had been running my computer for awhile trying to download soemthing. so with 600 ping and 4 fps, i was still killing them. shotty probably saved my ass when i froze for like 10 seconds. the 600 ping was likely cause i was downloading, normally i get better than that. around 250 or something) i think those guys thought we were the pkers cause they were calling me a lot of names. oh well, i dont mind.

Kouryuu

15-01-03, 09:09

Originally posted by ZoneseeK

That happened today and about 10 minutes after like 10 55+ merc/admin/tangent players showed up and cleared the pks out it was interesting...

I don't see why copbots are even there....seriously, 3 or 4 neg. soul light TGs came out of the sewer after probably killing 4 or 5 city admin n00bs and the copbots just stand about. Meanwhile if ANY hostile faction goes near a TG guard they let loose. Bullshit.

Yeah, I love that place whenever I want to own some TG I can 50% of the time find them there. Its great.

WedgeIkari

15-01-03, 09:29

-Martin

I have read almost all the posts on this thread, and forgive me if I missed this, but has anyone considered the impact of the "no safe zone" total PvP carnage on trade skillers?

Before I get into this I would like to state why I dont think that an LE chip is in any way a solution to random PK. The LE chip is a GIMP.

Lets see the benifits of the LE chip: I cant be killed by other players.

Disadvantages: I get less xp and nc per mob kill, and I have to wait MUCH longer to use decent weapons. In the case of rare weapons.... well if I were maxed (spy) I would only be able to use the lowest level rare weapons (if I had a host of implants to help), and it would be impossible for me to use most mid and all high level weapons (First Love with LE chip... forget it). Is it somehow the case that Law Enforcers should for some reason not be albe to use the best rare weapons in the game? If so, I would really like to know why. Why does the LE chip have so many penalties?

Now if the LE chip where modified so that I could use weapons at the same skill levels as Non-LE chip users, but it still took away xp and nc, I could live with that and be totally happy.

So if you can now see why I think that the LE chip is not a solution to RPK then lets see what life is like as a trade skill player in a no-LE chip world.

How can any high level tradeskiller be expected to hold his own against a character which is built for PvP? The answer is they CANT and im sure that they arent supposed to.... so if this game is mainly supposed to be just PvP then lets just toss trade skills out the window and all buy weapons from the shops... oh wait the weapons in the shops have terrible quality and no slots. So it appears that trade skill players are necessary, and yet in this total PvP universe they will have to hide out in locked appts or move in herds if they dont want to get killed by some l33t PKer. As it currently stands the experience you gain from constructing (I am TL 170) is so small on even the highest TL items, that I would take me months to cap a spy, where as a PvP spy who hunts mobs can cap out in a few weeks.

Im sorry if I diverged from my point. What Im trying to say is: If you want this game to be like Counter Strike or Quake, where EVERYONE participates in full time PvP then tradeskills are a completely inviable way to build a player... and LE is not an option because a trade skill player has to hunt to gain xp at any decent rate, and Ive already said why LE chips are not an acceptable alternative.

On the other hand if this game is supposed to maintain some sort of balance between craftsmen and warriors in an RP sense, then please dont eliminate safe zones, perhaps give more xp or other unique benifits to all trade skillers, and create penalties for RPKers (soul light? copbots? what ever happened to that system) like so many people have suggested thus far.

Deighton

15-01-03, 09:31

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
PvP _is_ a base element of the game. That also means that we want to give more freedom to the players and give _you_ the tools to go against random PKers. Hey, it's a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world, so why don't you realize that there are some amok weirdos going postal?

Surely, in NC have to exists some weird people, fitting in their role as murders, burglars, assasins, etc. That is so far most ok for me. But, juts to do a short explanation. I wnat to do RPG, because i think, NC offers a good base to practice this. My fun to do RPG fades rapidly away, when I get every time Random PK'ed.

See, I want to enjoy the game. I do not have much time and I takes for me a long time, to get further in game. But it is so damn lame, when you go online, walk around in Area xyz (no, I was not walking in hostile areas) and some "nice" person, to be polite in giving names, shoots you, because you never expexted the buddy doing this and could not react fast tho.

I'm really annoyed, standing a med and asking to get some imps done. When the time I have left for the game is ending up more at Plaza 1 getting rimped, I'm done with the game!

That does not mean in the end i want a Carebearland. I just would appreciate it, when a random PK buddy gets some threat. When I remember, in the german version of the game, some annoucements can be heard, wlking through the city like, that some tough criminals have been seen in town. When this announcement exists, why, the hell, can the game engine not be fixed, to react when a RPK approaches somewhere, like working SL.

When a person commits (R)PK not in a warzone (inside a warzone it should not be made tougher) it really should suffer massive SOULIGHT lost! So it is maximum tough for the player gaining a better SL. And ANY, yes, ANY NPC Guard should then attack this buddy, having a really bad soullight. Being post apocalyptic, that does not mesn, that there is not intelligence angency, that could identify murders and other "nice" ppl.
This regulations would bring back some better balance, and could stop some RPK buddies.

Sometimes, when i get aware how PK is commited, then it appears to me, that some people only playing this game, because it is a better Counter Strike. And they often apologize like "I'm a dumb tank. I don't now what I do". Man, that is so lame.

Dear, MJS, you should really think over some regulations so far, implemented int the SOULLIGHT SYSTEM. My general suggestion: PK commited not in a warzone must have double or more loss of SL than normal. AND not only copbots ALSO NON NPC should attack those buddies right away. This would get PK into a "ROLEPLAY", because those who really want to live with it, have to cope in a tough role. This would also prevent the CS kids to get further. Think it over MJS.

I only can tell, that some of my Clan personell are really annoyed of the RPK problem. 3 of my members left, just because of this problem.

Guu

15-01-03, 11:55

Back in the day there used to be a last location system. I wasnt PKed once while it was in playce and when it was gone, I was already too highlevel for PKs to target me. Nowarday,s when I try to level my Monk, I gotta watch my back constatly becasue sooner rarther then later, a RPK will show up.

As it stands, there is no way to FIND a RPK other then luck. If some guy wants to kill some ppl in the Aggri sewer, he can go down, shoot a few and be out of there again in 2-5 minutes. Not exactly a lot of time for player police to show up.
This was, of cause, always possible. But when last location was still accessable, the PKs had something to be afraid of. There is nothing like that now.

And I am not saying "put last location back in", Id hate to see it back in. All I want to see is a system that gives some sort of disadvantage to the PKs. Soullight is no disadvantage to a PK, not if the PK limits himself to 2-3 kills and then waits till he is back at +1 SL...

And the ppl here are right, a lof of PKing happens because the game is boring to highlevel players. What is there for me to do? hunt for rareparts, trade rareparts and then hunt for some more rareparts...And I already HAVE my share of rare guns and whatnot!

M. Garibaldi

15-01-03, 12:12

Having read all the post so far I suggest the following (R)PK countermeasures:
1. Enable last position tracking for people with negative SL (SL < -15). Everyone should be able to track their position. Suddenly the hunters (PKs) become the prey.
2. Enforce "minimum sympathy to join" on clans and let it default to something like 40. No one with a lower sympathy should be allowed to join a clan. To make it even worse introduce "minimum sympathy to stay" which should be somewhere around -10 to 10. When the sympathy drops below that treshold the char is automatically disbanded from the clan.
3. No faction tags for clanless runners. No one needs to know it as long as the char doesn't join a clan. When the char joins a clan he not only gets a clan tag but also a faction tag. (Because no one can remember the factions of over 100 clans)
4. A bounty system for chars with negative SL. Lion Reeza himself pays a reward for killing a char with negative SL. (SL < -15) The reward should be in a corelation to the SL. Of course this could lead into exploiting so it should be limited to once a day and the name of the bounty hunter who got the reward should be displayed somewhere in the citycom.

These suggestions are meant to make a PK's life harder but not to interfere with normal PvP.

Archeus

15-01-03, 12:16

Originally posted by VerbalPEZ
[B]PLEASE dont make this carebear... I played UO in its early days.. these people have NO idea what harsh is ;)

Indeed, although I would say that UO and NC would have nothing on Darktide server in Asherons Call. :)

Player run justice does work if the mechanics are in place. I actually played a cop/detective in UO pretty well (Colomba) which the majority of thief element in the game enjoyed (only about 3 people out of the numerous thieves I killed said I was ruining thier gameplay).

I don't want to see NC nerfed, and random PK'ing is part of the game.

However I do have an issue of PK'ers using the game mechanics to kill people. Whacking a newbie is one thing, whacking a person who's zoning into an area or coming out of a genrep is another.

Removal of safe zones in my opinion will make matters worse. Don't believe me? Then why on Pluto does everyone trade in Plaza 1? Why not in Pepper park?

The removal of the stat penalty on newbies with LE's in is probably the best way to go. At the low level end of the game, your more intrested in whacking monsters either to enjoy the game or to level up. Your not going to get into PvP seriously until your over 20/20 (at least I didn't). Then higher level people with LE's should get a higher penalty.

Also another solution is to make the penalty of killing your own faction hurt. A Fallen Angel PK'er shouldn't be allowed at all to wander around Tech Haven if they have -30 or less in FA faction points. It won't stop random PK'ing but it would lower the PK'ing of faction members.

Don't stop them from doing this, but give a penalty. Outcast to the wastelands? Move to Anarchy Breed? gunned down by everything in NC? Entrances+GR's locked in TechHaven/NC/TG? Drop more on death.

Also a visual marker on the person to show they are a killer. Mark thier name blue say if they have killed x amount of people <40 levels below them within a set time. This would (at least on pluto) show the trades people who they are rearming and would cut off thier supplies. This already happens to some extent on Pluto.

The current death system is fine as well, I like the fact that you only loose one item and if you have Pker camping an area throwing yourself at them as a newbie actually gives you XP and them nothing.

Also give a particular player class the ability to hunt. The citycom system pointing out where people were was great. Too bad the PK'ers used it as well. I think for sacrificing say some combat based skills that a player should be allowed to hunt another (either through hacking or another means). Like say I walk into Cityadmin and use my Barter skill to bribe an official to tell me the location of a certain cityadmin faction player (this stops faction enemies from doing it easily).

Berzerker

15-01-03, 12:19

Remove all Copbots from Pepper Park. Make all Plaza area's anarchy zones much like Pepper Park is now, but with a sliding scale of security. Plaza 1 would have more Copbots than Plaza 3. Verossa lots an lots of Copbots. They rich snobs can afford lots of security. Keep personal apartments safe zone.

blumblumshub

15-01-03, 12:27

First, I apologise to the people whose posts I haven't read. I am at work and don't have time to read all these, I'm afraid. I read most of the first page, including Spookie's emotional post.

I have to agree with Spookie's comments that every time a good guy shows up, five bad guys have come in, and that's just stupid.

We are in a situation now where the DICKHEADS are in control, never mind the crackheads.

If I play at nighttime (UK nighttime) I have to just take it for granted that I will be wasted several times by other players.
I am immune to death now, I see it as just something that happens, like having a pee or taking a shower, and I shouldn't view death like that. It should MEAN something, dammit.

Martin, this is very frustrating for us, don't you understand that?
Something else that you don't seem to understand is that the majority of us LOVE THIS GAME but are worried that it won't last another 6 months because nobody's buying it and people are leaving it, and quite justifiably so with all the PK'ing, the bugs, the lack of support etc.

When games like Planetfall and Star Wars Galaxies come out, what the hell are you going to do then? You needed a solid player base before they came out, but you're running out of time for that, and CDV won't help you because they couldn't find their own arse with a hunting dog and a ouija board.

If you can't see that random PK'ing is killing your player base, then for God's sake find another line of business.

Don't you DARE just suggest that players keep their LE chips in, that's insulting and it's a cop out. Players are penalised by the LE chip, of COURSE they are going to remove it. You lose out on cash, you lose out on xp, you lose out on equipment and you lose out because you can't join a clan, all so that you can be safe from stupid bastards that enjoy nothing more than ruining people's game.
Good old LE chip eh? Our saviour.

I want so much to say something supportive and positive, I really do, but I've had all my positivity sucked out of me.

I'm sorry Martin, but after your comments, I'm convinced that Reakktor, CDV and WorldPay are the new Three Stooges.

Blum Blum Shub

mongoose

15-01-03, 12:30

I like the forced LE chip idea

Perhaps the LE chip system should be changed - so that IT lowers the Reqs for items until level 25-30
then it starts to go the other way - so it starts out HELPING characters use items and then when they are big enough to stand at least a chance in pvp - it starts to hinder them until they remove it

At least that way its a viable alternative to joining a clan or taking it out

M.

xep

15-01-03, 12:32

LE is a great idea to prevent PK (PvP), but we need more LE types.
You can find, in Brainport and even in Community Talk, LE alternatives and PvP ideas that can be transformed in new LE types.

Thanks for caring, Martin. *glad*

edit:
> permanent LE - (you can't remove it, ever) and the single penalty for it will be the implant slot that will occupy.
> duel LE - you must accept to fight :)
> safezones LE - you are safe in more zones depending on the LE (you can even remore the FULL safezones, this way)
> GenRep LE - protect you near genrep, only for a number of seconds (depending on LE type) after you GR

note: the LEs can be changed w/o removing the old one. you can change one LE per day, and when you remove the LE (any), you can't implant another for a week

Archeus

15-01-03, 12:34

Originally posted by blumblumshub
When games like Planetfall and Star Wars Galaxies come out, what the hell are you going to do then?

They are different game types which won't appeal to everyone, for example PlanetFall will cater more for PK'ers and SWG is one player servers, more expensive, more restrictive and has a combat system which will play like Yu-gi-Oh combat.

Kazper

15-01-03, 12:34

i agree! keep your LE in if you don't want to die

DrKronic

15-01-03, 12:39

Heres my view on the situation

as far as pepper park goes, there was a time when not so many copbots were in the zone, sure the 2 at the front were, but if they were pointed on the other walls looking in to the safe zones

Or diagonally scanning the pepper park 1 location known as "campers paradise"(zoning place between pp 1 and plaza 3)

I mean really less copbots are whats needed, and maybe some thoughts on how they should act and their placement

FACTIONAL GUARDS AND PERSONAL FACTION HOSTILITIES

this needs to be worked, I'm beyond red in about everything except for tsunami and citymercs(well I think I'm better than that, but alot of people have been feeling the need to attack me lately)

in anarchy zones black dragon guards just yell at me, come on they should blast me, along with just about any other front door guards(well not citymercs and the other guys in the grey area, also the tsunami love me so shouldn't they fire when I get attacked)

maybe if personal faction was important, it would matter, but it isn't, actually the best thing to do right now is not be in a clan, kill every faction, get to -100 and have no faction, because then everyone sees you are either allied or neutral

hmmmm can't think of anyone that has this benefit

*cough* megaman and pals *cough*

*cough* *cough* *cough*, sorry it's like 4:37 am here

UBER EDIT: in the city where the punishment for everything is death, where is the damn loitering charges :D

Berzerker

15-01-03, 12:40

Oh yeh I forgot. Lose the LE chips completly. Thats going to be the next large exploit. Or at least make them work only in the city your primary apartment is in.

svenw

15-01-03, 12:50

Well, i like Mr.Garibaldis ideas except the automatic exclusion of members from clans. I took part in some events and the bottom line was that my SL went negative just because I hit some player by accident and the mobs finished him. I never intentionally shot at a player during an event.

give SL a real meaning additional to Mr Garibaldis ideas:
1. your impairment after death raises when you SL drops.

2. the prices raise also with your SL dropping (nobody wants to tradewith a lunatic)

3. Your SL is added to your faction sympathy when it comes to determen if the guards shoot you or not.

4. Skip this stupid system of self raising SL. SL should raise as it was intended before release. You can pay for it (a multiple of the price to get your backpack back for every point) or you can kill players meaner than yourself.

5. Programm a attacker modul. When I'm attacked and blow away the idiot my Sl shouldn't drop.

6 stop the instant respawning near death. After your second killing in a short order you must respawn at your App and will be unable to use a GR till your is lower than 60. The GR wil simply not beam you cause it would cause permanent damage to you. You could even implement that you can beam but will loose a skill level in a random skill.

7. Implement things that make it more rewarding to fight oter players. Clan missions force you to take AND HOLD an outpost.
Gambling at Neofrag (you must pay an entrance fee for a match (according to your rank) and the one with the most kills gets all the money minus 10%.

McManus

15-01-03, 12:56

I'm a SPY, all I have to say about that

Style

15-01-03, 13:01

all i want to say is

THANK YOU FOR THIS STATEMENT MARTIN

finally we got an official word on it

Opiate

15-01-03, 13:01

I don't consider myself a "vet" yet, although I've been very activelly playing since last July or something. In all that time, I've hardly ever been "randomly Pk-ed", not counting clan wars. I'm sure I could count all of them on my 10 fingers. And if I didn't count kills because of faction, it would fit on one hand. Thus in a way, Vet has a point. There are plenty of ways to avoid being PK-ed all the time.

Martin has a point about the safezone barrier from P3 to PP1. I never was a big PvP-er, so I never believed I would go to Neptune if it opened. But ppl escaping to plaza when low on hlt, made me change my mind.

Plz don't make this game into a carebear world, that would probably be the only reason you could ever get me to quit :D

Longinius

15-01-03, 13:04

Well, IMHO any changes made should fit the setting of the game. No magic and illogical solutions, think about HOW it would be solved in a world with this setting.

There will always be random PKers and it is a part of the game. Like Martin said, in a world like NC you will have gangs and individuals whose only purpose is to kill others for whatever reason.

The question is, would Reza allow this to happen in areas under his influence? No, he wouldn't. Would he like it to happen in other place? No, probably not.

In places like Plaza and the central districts of the town, we have the CopBots so that problem is solved. No weapons, strong lawenforcement presence.

How about Pepper Park then? Well, if the government cant control the sector they WOULD put up fortified and garrisoned checkpoints through out the area. The law would be upheld from these sectors. Whatever happened to the idea we once heard that you could call for CopBots if attacked? I think that is a brilliant solution.

Now, as for PKing of newbs in sewers and such. Well, come on, if you are dumb enough to go hunting in sewers as a newb without back-up you should be blown to bits. Why aren't the players of various factions helping their newbs to level? Why dont the City Admin players guard the popular leveling spots?

Everywhere I see posts about players wanting more influence, mor events and more RP. Well, you got it right under your nose. Organising defense for the NC citizens (newbs) is as basic as it gets. Then you can expand on that and create your own checkpoints as I described above, where newbs can call for help if attacked. That way, the random PK suddenly becomes constructive as it opens up new and interesting tasks for established players.

KK cant solve all the issues with hard coding in a roleplaying game. Their job is to make sure the players can do whatever they want and get free reigns. Then it is up to the community to make sure it doesnt get out of hand.

The only thing I could think of that KK could provide that would easy it up would be a 911 service where newbs could call in and people of their clan / faction would be instantly alerted to who the player was, where he is and what his problem might be. That is a tool that could be useful to the community. But then again, it actually requires the community to get their act together and actively do something. Which is why it would probably fail...

DrKronic

15-01-03, 13:06

really, go find a n00b sometime, they can become more powerful than you can imagine(or just run away or die like most pets)

Siygess

15-01-03, 13:17

Just like Blum, I'm also at work so I dont have time for a mammoth reply, but I agree with his concerns for the future of Neocron -

I get RPK'ed regularly, but I deal with it.. I put up with it because I love this game, but I am in the minority.

Surely, Martin, you realise that, irrespective of the reviews the game has had, Neocron has an increasingly bad reputation for its RPKing and GANKing and that is going to kill your game dead, regardless if we agree there is a problem or not.

Even if every PK'er suddenly found out about Neocron and stopped playing UO, AO or DAoC to come and try Neocron, there still won't be enough people playing the game to keep your game alive. Some people might argue that this issue is over exaggerated, or that its realistic of a post-apocalyptic setting..
But in the eyes of prospective players, these are simply hollow excuses to justify the reputation that's already out there.

I dont want to be playing Planetside in six months time telling the sad story of how Neocron could have been before it died - I want to be playing Planetside because the Neocron servers are down for patching, telling all the misguided Planetside peeps how good Neocron is and that they should give it a try.

Cyphor

15-01-03, 13:20

Why not just open neptune and see what happens with any luck all the pk griefers will go to there, and leave role players who want pvp not exploitation can be left in peace. If they dont go then some of the more drastic approaches favoured by role players could be implimented on the role play servers thus making them for role play and neptune for pvp. It was my understanding this was what was intended anyway!!o_O (specific server for rpg and pvp)

Style

15-01-03, 13:23

pks are NOT griefers
pks are just players better than you :)

5150

15-01-03, 13:25

Ok news a newbies angle :-) (probably too late in the thread to get noticed)

I have no problem with PvP (I used to play Teamfortress almost exclusively) but I'm a long time RPGer so I can see a paradox in this game.

PKing is currently senseless atm due to a few factors...

The PKers choose the TG faction. While the TG faction is hostile to _most_ of neocron, TG are actually supposed to be 'saving us from ourselves' (think of the Matrix plot, "If you are not one of us you are one of them, and most of them are not ready to be unplugged") the only reason they chose TG is to minimise the faction hit they get by killing other players.

Either Anarchy Breed needs to be opened up, or more copbot restrictions need to be placed on TG members (I find it odd that you cant walk past a city admin if you are cahrn<sp> without getting attacked and yet TG can stroll past all the cop bots.... At least if people could be Anarchy Breed everyone could just shoot them on site without worrying if they are not one of the 'bad apples' or that it wasnt 'in character'

Anarchy breed should be no picnic though (its not a free pass to PK land), they shouldnt start with an LE chip (neither should TG for that matter) should be hostile to everyone and always have a negative soul light (which sorts out the cop bot issue) nor should other players lose SL for killing them. If they want all out, no holds barred PKing let them have it!

Yes the game setting allows/means there are people who have gone postal, but thats why law is supposed to be oppressive and absolute and why TG are trying to bring Rezza down for being a dictator. At the moment law isnt effective, isnt absolute and isnt oppressive (thus weakening TG's position regardless of the TG player actions)

Its ok to stand there and say that lowbies should level up, group together and/or get higher level help but is this what they really got the game for? High levels may pitch in and help _now_ but is this only due to lack of high level content? I personally would soon get tired if every time I logged in I was repeatedly asked to go to low level areas and kill 'newbie PKers' sure everyone likes to help, and it might make a change once in a while but theres a limit on how much time you can devote to others

The LE chip! The default reply by PKers to every anti-PK thread. But if the next patch hits live as planned this soon wont be an option.

Well I have left mine in so far (rank 20 psi) and it doesnt bother me.....yet, but I want to join/form a clan sooner or later at which point the game mechanics kind of force my hand. While I accept that leaving the LE chip should have disadvantages to balance the advantages, why are certain things (clans etc) off limits to the LE-equipped? Make creating a clan more expensive with an LE (in the same vein as higher stats) and/or make clans either 'all LE' or 'no LE'

The big problem (as I see it and understand from posts here) is people are not bothered by getting killed, they are bothered by getting killed by people that they have 0 chance to fight back against. In this respect the Anarchy Online PvP ranges are a good thing (I'm not saying they have done a good job of implimenting it, just that the concept is sound) as it would stop your high rank people ganking new characters in the level 1 sewers. Entry restictions on those areas are not a good idea as it stops recyclers/constructors from obtaining their building material

Some people will always be idiots, and some will always want to get 'one up' on other people regardless of any other concern (for various reasons) and they _will_ do this if the game mechanics let them (in the same was as people exploiting).

The only way you are going to stop the 'newbie gank fest' is with game mechanics, you cannot rely on the goodwill and participation of higher level players 100% of the time, or the low level player putting up with it long enough to level up, maybe team up and do something about it (assuming the PKer isnt levelling up as well). Either that or you risk new players being put off the game because of constant PKing (because everyone they meet will tell them to take the LE out and pretty soon they wont be able to put it back in again!)

Rith

15-01-03, 13:31

Its more of a complex solution than ramping up the effects of LEs or bounties...

But my feeling is that

a) If you enter a warzone in the wastelands and you get PK'd there is no excuse, no complaints, no come back... if you get PK'd 20 times in a row - same deal - your in a warzone.... it even says so when you enter it...

b) Dump the safezones in Plaza - its silly to think that a copbot could open fire on you - but you can't return fire...

c) Boost the copbot AI - give them some group direction. Right now they seem to act pretty much as independant very dim guards... give them a little more oomph - you'd expect a dictator like Reeza to have enough survelance over his city to know pretty much what everyone was doing - use this to help the copbots enforce law and order

2 examples:

A newbie is killed in a copbot patrolled zone - if this newbie goes upto a copbot and iniates a conversation - an option should be added which says "I've just been murdered by..." ... some simple logic should be used to validate this request (i.e. player < rank 10) and player didn't shoot first etc) - at which point the PK'er becomes KOS for all copbots in zone

A known PK'er (i.e. reported murders without an execution >20) enters a copbot patrolled zone - 2 copbots are dispatched to intercept him... they attack on sight and shoot to kill... if they are plugged badly - they call for help - 10 copbots come after the guy...

I think newbie protection through copbot's implementing law and order is much more appealing than nerfing the games' mechanics... i'd much rather have a shoot out with some cop/storm bots rather than not be able to draw a weapon in neocron...

oh and TG should be kos within the city limits - i doubt reeza would be happy with his sworn enemies wandering the streets of his city

rith

jopineapples

15-01-03, 13:35

I know it will be a large development task but could you make PVP just clan based ? Say on a mutual consent KOS list ? EOB add NDA to their KOS list ( as a sort of challenge ) NDA take up that challenge and those sides can now partake in PVP. Therefore players who want PVP move to clans that partake in it regularly, players who dont want PVP move to a clan thats doesn't. In the above example EOB couldn't PVP a N00b clan.

This opens up other possibilities between Clan alliances, because you would also take on their PVP list. You could also only enter PVP if you were a member of a clan.

Just a thought but it seems to solve everyones problems.

Regards
Jo P

M. Garibaldi

15-01-03, 13:46

People who want the copbots to attack TG just miss the point. It's not their job. That's what the faction guards are for. Everyone should be able to enter Plaza 1. But to enter CA HQ you have to first get past the guards standing there. At the moment they just warn you and you have enough time to run past them. They should open fire immediately!
The copbots are just to enforce SL. Nothing else.

yibble

15-01-03, 13:51

If that's so, should they really be called NCPD?

Buzzark

15-01-03, 13:51

There are two trains of thought which I think would solve the majority or problems accociated with random PK'ing:

1. LE chips.

Alter the effects of LE chips so that rather than affecting your ability to level and use weapons, it simply becomes a choice on whether you want to PvP or not.
I have never heard any comments in favor of the gimping of skills and XP associated with it.

To avoid regretable errors with people taking it out and not liking the effects make it re-implantable, but only once. Perhaps you could make a replacement LE chip store buyable for the second replacement, once the starter chip has been removed. You get a second chance but no more, this would stop people changing between being Griefers and "normal people" at will.

2. Those unrealistic safe zones.

Remove the safe zones and replace them with more copbots in appropriate areas. i.e. The richer areas get more and they attack anyone in view with a drawn weapon.

This at least would allow those that do wish to PvP, better chance to track down those who attack their clans / friends while adding much entertainment for the rest of us. No longer can you escape killing someone in a sewer or cellar by jumping out to a safezone. If people want to take revenge, they can do so - just avoid the copbots!

To complete the picture;
Copbots should also react to gunfire and head towards it, as they would in a "RL" situation. (erm, if they existed:D)

This would allow those who want to PvP, to PvP fully (and with better RP to it) and allow clan wars to work properly. Even allowing people to snipe and enemy from a distance, but as soon as the first shot goes off, the copbots will react (assuming there are any local) and attack the user of the drawn weapon.
There's your reason for being a SPY - doing what a SPY does properly.

So does anybody else agree this would work? - I'n not saying cures everything, but it would improve things for PvP'ers (more fun - more options) and also allow those who would prefer to tradeskill or wait to PvP later, the option to do that without punishment.

One final thing, the chips should only be effective in your home city - if you're ready to go outside, you are ready to face the consequences and when you come back you are still protected.

It's just my vision - "Action for all, but only if you want it".

5150

15-01-03, 13:53

Originally posted by M. Garibaldi
People who want the copbots to attack TG just miss the point. It's not their job. That's what the faction guards are for. Everyone should be able to enter Plaza 1. But to enter CA HQ you have to first get past the guards standing there. At the moment they just warn you and you have enough time to run past them. They should open fire immediately!
The copbots are just to enforce SL. Nothing else.

Well actually it is

TG want to destroy City Admin (in order to free Neocron from opression) CopBots _are_ City Admin therefore they should attack them on sight.

You dont let your #1 enemy stroll past you because killing them is someone elses job, your just here to catch the muggers etc...(read: neg soulight)

-edit- apparently I've lost the ability to spell :-)

vokuhila

15-01-03, 13:56

This may sound strange, but when the worst PKers abuse the system by quickly escaping into safe zone when being hunted... then it might be a solution to remove the safe zones entirely. Would be a drastic move, but something to think about. They are a little unrealistic anyway.

It definitly WOULD help! Random PKs in PP1 for example will think twice if they go there hunt newbies without having the possibility of going back to the safe zone when they are in danger. And every Nub who complains about being killed in the Wastelands: You have got 2 possibilitys. First: Hold your LE in until you are strong enough to handle the PKs. Second: Stay in Neocron and level in the Sewers.

Martin: another thing: Players are getting more bored day by day. There is a need of something new in the game. New Weapons, New Monsters (which cant be beaten by a single person and need 5-10 Highlevel chars to be beaten) Make the PvM as thrilling as the PvP and Random PK will get less! Another Thing i set my hope on is Neptune. It HAS to be a NO-LE NO-Safe zone Server (make the "Safe Zones" to zones which are like Pepper Park is now (more copbots <- i hope they will get a little smarter, too :p )) so all the Players who want to do PvP have found their paradise (me too, and i am NO Random PK ;) ), and Nubs who go there and complain about getting killed are simply at exactly the wrong place :D

Longinius

15-01-03, 14:03

"Why can't RPers simply ignore the amok PK guys?"
- Martin

Uhm, have you tried starting a new, green character in the game?

1. It is impossible to RP when the atmosphere is continously disrupted by l33t h4xx0r5 with a bad attitude.
2. How do you ignore 5 guys continously PKing you, without ANY bad consequences to their action worth noting?

Siygess

15-01-03, 14:03

@5150:

No, I disagree here - Despite being CA myself. IMHO the NCPD presence is purely a game balancing tool - like a real police force, they are supposed to be neutral, unbiased and keepers of the peace. Its like having the police force of a particular country shoot a particular race on sight because they are unpopular in that country - it just doesnt happen. As citizens of Neocron City, we should have more (and better equipped) City Admin guards who shoot hostile factions on sight.

The NCPD aren't there to further City Admins goals - we have to rely on players and faction guards to do that :)

M. Garibaldi

15-01-03, 14:05

Originally posted by 5150
TG want to destroy City Admin (in order to free Neocron from opression) CopBots _are_ City Admin therefore they should attack them on sight.

Let me put it another way. That's not how KK intended them. ;)

ChRoNo

15-01-03, 14:05

the most important issues have been laid out several times, however 3 important suggestions come up to my mind in addition:

-clans with 75%+ of their members having faction sympathies -99 should be tossed, i do not see any point of discussion here but to where the line is to be drawn

-separate slot for LE (there r too much penalties already)

-vehicles below 5% status should become indestructible to other players (repair costs r high enough) and become unusable at that value

oh and one more thing: i saw newly added genrep turrets in TH on saturn last night - i do not think they r of any use 8)). rather add copbots INSIDE MEDICARE at genreps (or next to all safe genreps even)

peace, ChRoNo

Longinius

15-01-03, 14:09

"The NCPD aren't there to further City Admins goals - we have to rely on players and faction guards to do that "

The COPbots are Rezas tool to control the population. TG and other factions have the sole goal of putting Reza out of action. Therefor one would think that fighting these people would be a COPbot priority.

TG are not a race of people, they are an oppositional faction to CA and therefor to the COPbots, who are the tool of the CA.

This is just one of the many small things that make the game NOT making sense. I mean, would a supposed dictator like Reza really allow his enemies access to his territory? Of course he wouldn't. The gameplay should reflect this. Would this mean certain factions could not enter NC without risk of dieing? Yes, it would. Tought luck, but that is the way it is. It would actually enhance the game to add it because as a result you could add skills and equipment to "cloak" / disguise your faction to sneak past COPbots.

5150

15-01-03, 14:14

Originally posted by Siygess
@5150:

No, I disagree here - Despite being CA myself. IMHO the NCPD presence is purely a game balancing tool - like a real police force, they are supposed to be neutral, unbiased and keepers of the peace. Its like having the police force of a particular country shoot a particular race on sight because they are unpopular in that country - it just doesnt happen. As citizens of Neocron City, we should have more (and better equipped) City Admin guards who shoot hostile factions on sight.

The NCPD aren't there to further City Admins goals - we have to rely on players and faction guards to do that :)

So to put this into as close to a 'real life' context as possible..

The police dept shouldnt act against anyone other than domestic criminals because its someone elses job?

While this may be slightly true in this day and age (because people are lazy), these are unfeeling machines we are talking about, they should act like the judges depicted in Judge Dread.

No transgression of the law is too small to ignore. All criminals should be brought to justice regardless of their crimes (and the CopBots only give out 1 sentence)

Kirrana

15-01-03, 14:18

M. Garibaldi

Is quite correct about the copbots but sadly the soulight system just does not work and worst yet the copbot ai is well poor. Anyone entering the city and gunning down and load of people should by the soullight system be consider an outlaw.

but no in fact city admin people are far more likely to be shop by the copbot when they are in fact trying to protect the city.

In all its a daft situation

DrKronic

15-01-03, 14:19

the COPBOTs are far too uber to KOS all faction enemies naturally

also note if you changed copbots to effectively controlled for cityadmins best interests black dragon would be KOS to copbots, the guards at TG, the guards for FA(TH), and the citymercs, making them go from suck to blow

I mean they are like storm troopers for that spanish dude, they don't care, ok maybe it's time to anarchy everything, and get some STORM patrols going lol

(make them the kind that "randomly" kill people with vulgar names, drug-laced names(ark), anti-social misfits(always the appropriate gesture for real cops it seems)

Kirrana

15-01-03, 14:22

DrKronic

You are right but the Black Dragons are suppose to be the underworld and have a black market for all goods. If the copbots did become more CA focus BD should get the black market of goods, perhaps not as good as the shop versions but you would expect them to be cheaper.

5150

15-01-03, 14:22

Originally posted by DrKronic
the COPBOTs are far too uber to KOS all faction enemies naturally

I dont know about anyone else but I was just talking about them KOS'ing TG, not faction enemies :-)

Of course if they put Anarchy Breed in the game and all the random mindless PK'er went to Anarchy Breed then this wouldnt be needed (they would just need to be KOS to Anarchy Breed :-) )

Opiate

15-01-03, 14:25

Originally posted by Longinius
Uhm, have you tried starting a new, green character in the game?

I have. If you insist on hunting in the (well know) RPK-er sewers (=plaza & PP), then face the consequences. There are plenty of other places to go hunt (even if you're rank 1/1). If you need any tips, feel free to contact me, either by PM or in-game ;)

1. It is impossible to RP when the atmosphere is continously disrupted by l33t h4xx0r5 with a bad attitude.
2. How do you ignore 5 guys continously PKing you, without ANY bad consequences to their action worth noting?
1: not all heavy PvP-ers and RPK-ers are 1337 kids. And since when is RP-ing restricted to non-safe zones?
2: To point out the obvious: LE, safezones, runner numbers (hunt in groups), join a clan

I would really hate it if "Neocron" became "Neocare". I'm not an RPK-er, neither a heavy PvP-er. I RP, Role-Playing, as in choosing to play according to a certain role. I chose to be a CA clan leader, someone else may RP a mass murderer. That's fine by me, we need some ppl to play the "bad" runners.

Imagine a world without TG (and MegaMan, JoyStick, etc).......I see pink.......global faction allience....no more clan wars....no more Copbots (who needs them)......remove weapons......armor....*pukes*

DrKronic

15-01-03, 14:27

you don't need to go as far as the copbots, the factional guards should know to attack people that have PERSONAL hostile faction sympathy

this is coming from someone with probably 4 or 5 -50 ratings

right now if you become hostile in all factions or by bug even you can lose faction completely, and then your just dependent on soul light, with a number of factions neutral or allied, try it sometime on the test server

5150

15-01-03, 14:31

Ok, I can see where your going with this but then you'd need City Admin faction guards at least at the entrance to Neocron (and throughout the safe zones as well)

I'd like to test this out but I cant get on the testserver due to my account not being old enough :-(

Longinius

15-01-03, 14:32

"I have. If you insist on hunting in the (well know) RPK-er sewers (=plaza & PP), then face the consequences. There are plenty of other places to go hunt (even if you're rank 1/1). If you need any tips, feel free to contact me, either by PM or in-game"

Nah, I am OK myself. I have no problems. I am just saying that to a complete newbie in this game random PKing can be an extremely big issue. This is actually partially the communities fault, but it doesnt change the fact that rampant random PK is a problem. I simply wondered if Martin had walked the beat himself recently with a green newbie, in the areas described as being plagued by random PK.

"1: not all heavy PvP-ers and RPK-ers are 1337 kids. And since when is RP-ing restricted to non-safe zones?"

I didnt say they were or that it was. But it is extremely hard to RP when most of the people in the zone are playing the latest version of Quake MMO...

"I would really hate it if "Neocron" became "Neocare". I'm not an RPK-er, neither a heavy PvP-er. I RP, Role-Playing, as in choosing to play according to a certain role. I chose to be a CA clan leader, someone else may RP a mass murderer. That's fine by me, we need some ppl to play the "bad" runners."

If they only RPed massmurderers it wouldnt be a problem. Just randomly killing people doesnt constitute RP to me however.

Zeph0n

15-01-03, 14:35

Originally posted by Snarfles
Martin, there is a few clans on Pluto that actively tries to stop Pking, one being NDA. Usually if there are reports of pking in a location, around 3 minutes later atleast one NDA is there to help out against the Pk'rs. If more clans started to do this, then the scourge of pking might slow down a little. Or atleast stop ganking folk half their level

funny i saw an NDA killing a fallen angel guy who was well below his rank and the fallen angel guy didnt do anyhting. hypocrits? i think so.

DrKronic

15-01-03, 14:37

(get blasted) and yes I have done some unsavory things, but good lord what big mouths some of you have, I don't respond well to people cursing at me IRL either

Archeus

15-01-03, 14:55

Originally posted by Opiate

I have. If you insist on hunting in the (well know) RPK-er sewers (=plaza & PP), then face the consequences. There are plenty of other places to go hunt (even if you're rank 1/1). If you need any tips, feel free to contact me, either by PM or in-game ;)
#

Which is wonderful for you, but you weren't playing as a newbie. Do you think a newbie even knows where things are?

oor_wullie

15-01-03, 14:58

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
I've seen a couple of complaints about random PKing

arghhhh - a COUPLE??? you've seen 2 complaints?? check again martin - there are 100s of complaints. saying "a couple" is a direct insult to everyone who took the time to make posts on this subject (positive and negative).

[i]Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input. [/B]

jeeZUS. are you telling us how to play the game? your problem is that you have a vision that you ABSOLUTELY refuse to deivate from. it's clear that this is getting in the way of development and bug fixing, since we seem to get more additions and nerfs than we do plain fixes (not to mention that the additional content often creates still more bugs).

we've seen issues that have generated 100s of posts (lv3 imps for one), and yet those people are routinely ignored or, if anything is done, it's not what was asked for.

it's clear that at some level someone is saying something like "i don't care what they want - it's my game, i'll run it how I want.

over and over we get a clear view that no one is listening, or wants to listen. i don't believe you are open to ANY "input" other than that which agrees with your vision. you've already seen the MASSIVE amount of input on this issue, why ask for any more? you already know what we want for gods sake.

but here's my input, for what it's worth:

1. LE chip - fine, leave it in, but suffer no penalty other than the loss of PvP.

2. alternatively, again without any penalties, disallow PvP until a player has entered a clan. then all bets are off. at that point the clans can sort it out amongst themselves. in other words, PvP is only possible between clan members.

3. big brother is watching - decide a set of rules/guidlines that will automatically DEFINE a random PKer (or "amok weirdo going postal"). make the game itself then actively hunt these idiots with CopBots, or whatever. in other words, NPCs that go out and hunt PKers. don't expect US to do the job for you. i wouldn't waste my time.

4. even in a post apocalyptic world, some people are beyond the pale - fine. but in such a world, there are consequences. FIX the SL system.

at the end of the day it IS your game martin. but when the only people left playing that game are you and the PKers, what then?

Lexxuk

15-01-03, 15:01

Yeah, kewl, right, I read pretty much all of that, and need lots of Coffee!!

So, Martin, what you should do is this, go invisible, and sit in A&W in Plaza 2, just sit there, eventually, you will see high level TG players, in blue power armour, or with rares, go into the Aggie room. Keep watching, you'll see players between / and < go into the aggie room. Keep your eye on that tool that shows where people are, check the names of the people that went into the aggie room, see where they end up?

Now ask yourself this, if you were that new player, with that /, or that <, and you went into somewhere to level, and you suddenly found yourself dead, what would you do? Oh, go somewhere else yep? Kewl, so you go there, start to level, and suddenly, more people arrive and start killing you. Your a new player, so far, you are getting killed more by dicks with guns, than you are by mobs. Suddenly, you wish your 4 weeks were over, and that you had read the "idiots with plasma are ruining the game" and taken heed.

People have very low patience tollerance, for years we have had the technology for cash machines to use fingerprints instead of cards, you know why we havent? There is a 1 in a billion chance you'll get an error, and apparently, people dont have patience for that. What makes you think people will have the patience to keep getting killed, and then see the people who killed them, in Plaza 1 saying how 1337 they are?

Mind you, its up to you to find the solution. At the moment, your customers are still testing the game for you! (read the Dex/construction thread). Sitting round testing and hoping you'll actually take into account what is happening/being said, isnt what I'm paying for, nor am I paying for some twat with a liberator to pk newbs.

Adara

15-01-03, 15:03

None of the suggested changes about LE chips are going to help if you make it so that they can't be put back in once they're removed.

Those who *do* grief\pk pointlessly are going to regardless, so then they'd just start at level 10 or whatever. And the noob who didn't realize it is STILL screwed.

I think removal\limit\modification of the PP copbots is a good idea - as is a system where negative soullight is a higher penalty on death. You FORCE people to RP, at least to a small extent. Someone who rips a non-factional enemy every now and then has little problem, because they raise it. Someone who constantly griefs anyone will feel the pain.

So from all of this thread..

- continue to give people a choice about the LE
- do something about copbots in various areas that are hindering those who WOULD strike out against griefers
- fix\adjust soul light so that it actually matters, possibly implementing higher penalties for -SL
- implement the storyline

Opiate - a world without people like Joystick does not have to be a 'shiny happy people' world - if even ONE of the current "I am teh 1337 one" PKers would justify what they do with a SHRED of RP, you wouldn't see people bitch about them near as much. They are criticized because they have bad attitudes, resort to name calling and lame tactics, and don't PK with any purpose other than proving how cool they are - at least not that they can verbalize. ;)

yibble

15-01-03, 15:06

I wonder what texture the sky is in your world Martin? :)

Please spend some time in Neocron and assimilate data. Please have a chat with the in-game GMs... Turning up and not talking to a player regarding a call that has been logged, and then deleting the call with no response is not support... And that's happened twice to me so far.

Gallet

15-01-03, 15:12

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.

I think the problem with this solution is it requires players to do the right thing.

Some people just won't. They don't want to PK, or be PK'ed, but they want the extra EXP, and lower item requirements. So they take out their LE. This should mean that they accept the extra risk, but they really don't. Ever notice that when these people complain it's almost as if leaving the LE chip in was really not an option? You can't leave this decision up to these people.

Additionally, people don't organize easily. Players that suffer from the same problem are often apathetic. You couldn't have gotten me into a newbie leveling group back then, and what good would it do against some of their killers anyway? They're tweaked enough to where they can take out a group of mid-levels just as easily.

Relying on higher level players to do the right thing won't work either. In theory, it would provide much-wanted high-level action all the time. In reality, people are only willing to spend so much of their time escorting the young. It gets boring waiting for an attack that might not happen, where on the flip-side it's easy for the griefer to attack at any time in a popular area.

I think the LE server is a bad idea. Segregating the population will most likely only make both sides more unhappy in the end. The game can't go in two directions at the same time, and clearly it has been based on player-conflict thus far. I don't think most of us want a Carebear solution, if it can be avoided. Instead, why not give these low level players the power to defend themselves?

If they had a chance to kill the person(s) that was attacking them, wouldn't it provide more satisfaction for both the griefer and the griefed? Perhaps there should be a small area on every player target for their head, and headshots should do a minimum of 10% health per trigger pull, (regardless of weapon, armor, and resist). That would add more skill over equipment to the game too, which I think is a good thing.

Also, make it to where if you kill someone FAR below your rank, they drop nothing. Then make it to where if you kill someone FAR above your rank, they drop more than one item.

Maybe these aren't the best solutions, but I think we should focus along these lines. I'm sure there is a way to make this game more fun for the low level player without making it safer via Carebear loving.

Opiate

15-01-03, 15:14

Originally posted by Longinius

Nah, I am OK myself. I have no problems. I am just saying that to a complete newbie in this game random PKing can be an extremely big issue...

&

Originally posted by Archeus

Which is wonderful for you, but you weren't playing as a newbie. Do you think a newbie even knows where things are?
Both very true, but it would mean they had already took out their LE, which was obviously a mistake. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not for the killing of new players that have just entered the game. IMO, the LE should be non-removable, it should just pop out at avg skill 20 or so. Seems newbies are almost forced (by other players) to take out their LE at the moment they enter the game, which is wrong IMO. I had mine in for the first 3 weeks or so, and when I finally removed it, at least I was able to cope with the occasional death and lost item (I was a weak PE, with his points distributed almost at random :D)

Extirpator

15-01-03, 15:16

0) I don't have problem with PKing, I was PKed in Beta and Retail. Death means nothing. PKing is part of this game.
but
game mechanics don't support PKhunters or are fucked up completely

1) FIX the fucked up SL. Low SL has NO REAL penalties now.

Add Location to Runner Info for players with low SL, so that they can be hunted !
(decide what is low, and make it so PKs CAN'T get their SL up easily)

Add some more penalties for low SL.
(droping more things from belt, always droping weapons or even droping parts of inventory (or everything) - depending on SL

RP: who provides this service for NC runners?
CA? Biotech? NEXT? Who owns GR net? They should set some roules.
Could Factions, Clans "buy" GRs or the are where GR is and set up a policy for using them? Charge neutral, enemy runners more or even deny service?

2) Anarchyzone/Safezone hopping "l33T PKs" (read "cowards")
Add SL-BOTS to both sides of borders between anarchyzone (or warzone) and safezone. They would attack ONLY ppl with low SL.
(they would not follow the player in anarchy zone, they would guard the exit)

3) FIX the fucked up Color Coding
In beta when you saw somebody in RED, you knew he is PK.
(or good in PvP, but usually PK)

KK, you decided that colors are faction dependant and mixed it with SL colors. :rolleyes:
Think again about color system, current one is stupid.

4) Faction sympathies.
Now I see colors according to players Faction and even that is Fucked Up.
I have 98 Proto Pharma Sympathy and I'm in NEXT clan.
I'm I really supposed to see Pharma ppl in red?
What color am I for Pharma ppl? (I don't see them around, so I can't ask)

5) FIX the STUPID bug, when player loses SL and Faction sympathy if he hits somebody by accident.

I hunt in cave using area damage.
Another player comes in gets hit by my attack. His HLT drops 1-10 points. We both know it's an accident.

BUT if this player dies later to a mob, I LOSE SL AND FACTION SYMPATHIES (yes plural) !!!
FUCKING STUPID don't you think Martin ?

How about "I forgive you" type of solution? If you both agree it was an accident - there should be no SL loss or Faction loss.

6) Bounties !
Put them back.

Add new ingame forum for bounties, for "Head hunter needed. I offer XX 000 nc" type posts.

---

20) GR camping.
Add turrets that shoot everybody with weapon equiped near GR.

Or add warning system to GR list. Something like "if more than 3(5) ppl were killed near the GR in last 5(10) minutes, mark this GR as Dangerous" (cound backpacks near GR - should be easy enough)

Or add remote camera to GR list that lets me see the situation near GR.

Or something.

---

50) If you are getting killed in the place you level up, it's time to find new place.
Sewers in plaza are known for PKing and so are Aggie cellars.
If you want more safety, go somewhere else.

===

99) High level players or veterans leave, because NC is extremely BORING for them.

Guarding newbies in leveling places (known for PKing too) = boring too.
Time consuming, no rewards (only SL loss and Faction sympathy loss for me). I don't know those newbies, why should I care?
It's a dark world.

In first weeks newbies asked for help more often. Now they are usually quiet = no help.
BTW They should learn to ask in HELP channel.
( KK EXPLAIN to them how to use those channels - add this info to those messages that pop up when you start a new char)

999) KK read Brainport sometimes.
And Reply in those threads too.
Tell us if something can/can't be done and if you think it's interesting/stupid.

9999) Do you have somebody that sums up what's going on on Furums?

99999) FINALY TELL US what type of game is NC supposed to be?
I bought it as MMORPG. Now it's " Level Up MMOFPS without any story ".

Your plans are months old and totally useless.

Longinius

15-01-03, 15:27

"Guarding newbies in leveling places (known for PKing too) = boring too.
Time consuming, no rewards (only SL loss and Faction sympathy loss for me). I don't know those newbies, why should I care? It's dark world."

You should guard newbies of your own faction. The reason for this is simply that you belong to the same "side". Yes, it might be boring it times and you shouldnt do it 24/7 but its ONE thing of many you can do.

"Do you have somebody that sums up what's going on on Furums?"

Yes, they do.

"Or add warning system to GR list. Something like "if more than 3(5) ppl were killed near the GR in last 5(10) minutes, mark this GR as unsafe"

This is a great idea. I cant see why they dont have something like it implemented all ready to be honest.

Extirpator

15-01-03, 15:35

Martin J. Schwiezer:
Spookie: I don't understand your rage. Your PM was the reason for me to start this discussion... and it was meant as a discussion, not as a statement about how great the current system is. I will ignore your personal rants and insults as I think that there were spoken in anger. I know you well enough to see past that post. Also you seem to forget that the article in PC Gamer that mentions a problem with random PKers got us a 81% rating. Not too bad if you ask me...

Somebody buy Martin a clue (/me adds 1 nc to piggy bank)
It's almost amusing to see something as stupid as this post...
"personal rants and insults" ??? :rolleyes:

If you did not piss off Spookie enough with your first post, I bet this DID piss him off finaly. (IMHO of course)

Those reviewers most probably did not play NC longer than few hours or days. Don't tell me they played for weeks or caped their char or saw every place in NC and hunted rares... etc.

"Do you have somebody that sums up what's going on on Furums?"
Yes, they do.
Maybe they need more or better ppl. ;)
Or faster reaction times. Why do they let discussions last 5-10 pages, before they post "Ok, we noticed what you are saying, we will have a look at it"
(but "would somebody believe them?" is another question)

"You should guard newbies of your own faction."

Faction of victims has NOTHING to do with this.

PKs faction is important.

If I kill a PK that PKs newbies of my own faction, my SL loss and Faction loss is determined by PK's faction.

And imagine notorious PK that has the same faction as me.
(and PKs (and everybody else) can switch factions - if they have enough money to buy clan keys , they can change it every hour)

P.S. I don't give a .... about factions.
They are only good for Epic Runs (and Faction sympathy level does not matter for Epic Runs :rolleyes: ), but that's all.
No bonuses (idea: regular payments from your faction based on your sympathy? )
Not supported by Events or Story or Game Mechanics = probably not important even for KK.

===edit=== (after reading most of the posts)

Garibaldi
1. Enable last position tracking for people with negative SL (SL < -15). Everyone should be able to track their position. Suddenly the hunters (PKs) become the prey.

Good to see somebody else came with this idea too.

2. Enforce "minimum sympathy to join" on clans and let it default to something like 40. No one with a lower sympathy should be allowed to join a clan. To make it even worse introduce "minimum sympathy to stay" which should be somewhere around -10 to 10. When the sympathy drops

"minimum sympathy to join"
It's hard to get good players to your clan.
And if you find somebody good and not of your clan faction - you would have to tell them to "go run missions".
That would NOT encourage them to join.
And some factions have only few players. I see many CA, Tangent, Next - but show me Crahn , Pharma, Dragon ppl.

"minimum sympathy to stay"
Faction sympathy LOSS is fucked up now.
It's too easy to get your sympathy very low doing "nothing bad".

---

And now I quote myself, because I can't edit my old post..

50) If you are getting killed in the place you level up, it's time to find new place.
Sewers in plaza are known for PKing and so are Aggie cellars.
If you want more safety, go somewhere else.

and if you are lazy to find new place or ask in HELP channel or ask another player... then go to hell

Style

15-01-03, 15:46

Originally posted by oor_wullie
jeeZUS. are you telling us how to play the game? your problem is that you have a vision that you ABSOLUTELY refuse to deivate from. it's clear that this is getting in the way of development and bug fixing, since we seem to get more additions and nerfs than we do plain fixes (not to mention that the additional content often creates still more bugs).

ok first: he is NOT elling you how to play the game he is just telling you how you can play it without beeing foced to whine every day about pks
he created a cyberpunk game with the idea of people fighting etc
if you dont like that idea DONT PLAY A FUCKING CYBERPUNK GAME play eq then

we've seen issues that have generated 100s of posts (lv3 imps for one), and yet those people are routinely ignored or, if anything is done, it's not what was asked for.

the developers dont have time to fix everythiung instan they need the time this is the beginning of this game and in a year it will be great

it's clear that at some level someone is saying something like "i don't care what they want - it's my game, i'll run it how I want.

and he is damn right if he does so if he wanted a carebear game he would have created one
you play HIS game if you dont like it why the hell you playing it??

over and over we get a clear view that no one is listening, or wants to listen. i don't believe you are open to ANY "input" other than that which agrees with your vision. you've already seen the MASSIVE amount of input on this issue, why ask for any more? you already know what we want for gods sake.

if they would listen at every input we would have eq 2 no pvp no pking just a bunch of players flowerpicking near warbots beeing happy the world is so nice, the sun is shining and the birds are singing
THEY DID A CYBERPUNK GAME a harsh and evil world you knew that when you bought it if you dont like the idea dont complain just leave

but here's my input, for what it's worth:

1. LE chip - fine, leave it in, but suffer no penalty other than the loss of PvP.

why the hell should they do that its very simple to understand and someone who doesnt understand the point must be really stupid:

NO RISK NO REWARD no le = risk of being pked etc but reward of more exp and better stuff, with LE = absolute safety but you pay your price
got it ?

2. alternatively, again without any penalties, disallow PvP until a player has entered a clan. then all bets are off. at that point the clans can sort it out amongst themselves. in other words, PvP is only possible between clan members.

WTF ? its ok if they disallow pvp until ppl are at some certain level but then they have to disallow joining a clan until that level since otherwise every clan can have invincible spys
and in this case the whining would continue
newbie a) i wanna join a clan
newbie b) i am in a clan but i dont want to be killed make LE clans
bla bla bla nothing would change then
you have the option
the LE
it does exactly the same you want but you are not forced to keep it until a specific level
when low a LE does NO difference
when you join a clan you have to take it out (no more savety)
so this is exactly the same you discribed but its already implemented just with the factor people can choose themselfes what they do
and if they take the le out its THEY DAMN FAUL IF THEY GET KILLED

3. big brother is watching - decide a set of rules/guidlines that will automatically DEFINE a random PKer (or "amok weirdo going postal"). make the game itself then actively hunt these idiots with CopBots, or whatever. in other words, NPCs that go out and hunt PKers. don't expect US to do the job for you. i wouldn't waste my time.

lol the idiots are those people who are not able to solve a problem alone
you dont like being killed? then hunt the pks
otherwise dont whine or offend people who are just better than you and kick your ass
you got the option
put the LE in
you dont like it?
then die and dont ask for ncps to do it you already got them in plaza, viarosso and pp
everywhere else its UNSAVE
got it?
but in your case i would play eq or a single player game since you seem not to get the idea of ONLINE gaming you interact with players you hunt together you fight together against enemies
so dont ask the programmers to make npcs to do YOUR JOB
put the carebear chip in you newbie

4. even in a post apocalyptic world, some people are beyond the pale - fine. but in such a world, there are consequences. FIX the SL system.

hmm have you seen any cyberpunk movie (eg mad max) or did you read any books ?
i guess no
how should there be a realistic autopunishement
the only realistic punishement is if you hunt the pks down
well and in savezones the guards
stay realistic dude cuz all i see is a whining carebear posting stuff that would destroy a game not only for every pk and pvper but also for those who know how to roleplay cyberpunk
as far as i can say
YOU CANT PVP
YOU CANT PK
YOU CANT ROLEPLAY
YOU DONT INTERACT WITH OTHER PLAYERS

wtf do you want in neocron ??? this is definitly the wrong game for you

at the end of the day it IS your game martin. but when the only people left playing that game are you and the PKers, what then?

this will never happen

roleplayers will stay
pks will stay
pvpers will stay
crying newbies and carebears will be gone, well shit on it

and its called PKS not PKERS

pk = playerkiller
pker = something like playerkillerer

Longinius

15-01-03, 16:00

"Maybe they need more or better ppl."

I don't think so. They simply need to find a better way of answering questions than doing it post by post.

"Faction of victims has NOTHING to do with this."

Yes it does. Because the runners in every faction should look after their allies and fight their enemies. Its the basis of the game. If some factions runners do this, and another one doesnt and get their newcomers PKed its not the fault of the attacking faction. Its the fault of the people who dont chose to defend their faction and allies.

"P.S. I don't give a .... about factions.
They are only good for Epic Runs (and Faction sympathy level does not matter for Epic Runs ), but that's all."

This is the sad part, because the game is supposedly all about factions but noone gives a hoot.

"No bonuses (idea: regular payments from your faction based on your sympathy? )"

Has allready been suggested and its still a marvelous idea :)

Bradleystoke

15-01-03, 16:09

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
I've seen a couple of complaints about random PKing. What I don't understand is why don't the people who complain use the ingame mechanics to go against that? Why don't vet players initiate a clan to protect newbies? PvP _is_ a base element of the game. That also means that we want to give more freedom to the players and give _you_ the tools to go against random PKers.

Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.

Martin,

If you used this argument to encourage investors in the same manner as you've done in this post of yours, what impression would they get of you - be honest? This has to be the most ill concieved and out of character post I've seen you make so far.

From what I've read of this post - and quite frankly, I think it has to be the hands down worse ever reply I've seen to date, you've slipped into a general politician mode:

You play down the issues which are priority concerns of customers. You use the 'I don't understand' phrase to dismiss out of hand the concerns raised time and time again, both eloquently and when customers snap and frustration gets the better of them (can you blame us, given the overall situation!?).

Afaik, customers are doing their best to curb the problems as best they can, but the problems are also for you and Reakktor to address as well - you cannot wash your hands of them and expect the customers to work round inherent problems with the game on your behalf.

You end your post with 'I'm open to input'. Well, take the time to trawl through the forums and digest what the likes of Ryu, Reefsmoker and Blum et al have to say - they're intelligent, mature customers who are striving to meet Reakktor half wayl; they're aware of the problems but need you & KK to at least acknowledge problems within the game. The people I mention are articulate, they seldom if at all rant, but like the majority of customers, they're losing faith rapidly as the status quo of what can only be percieved as indifference or inability to deal with the situation continues.

When I first joined Neocron, I was pleasantly surprised - the forums were full of optimism, Reakktor and yourself were active and it seemed that there was a genuine interest in community and bucking the general trend within this godforsaken business which treats customers with at best indifference, at worse utter contempt. Unfortunately, the optimism has faded and most of us are jaundiced at seeing a repeat of what we see in other MMO producing companies.

In my opinion, Martin, you're now on par with use car salesmen: you have the gift of the gab, but now the midden has hit the windmill, a blanket of silence envelopes the company. You spoke fine words, but now lack either the resolve or ability to change the situation.

Here's a little philosophy tale you may like to read:

Richer Sounds - best Hi Fi retailer in the world (http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:n5VvPCt7CQ8C:cbs1.gcal.ac.uk/rsk/users/~jad/MFS1/LectureNotes/Case%2520Study%2520-%2520Julian%2520Richer.doc+richer+sounds+customer+philosophy&hl=en&ie=UTF-8)

Sorry about the wordiness of this, but the irritation-o-meter hit the red when I read your post, Martin... you bombed out on this one, big time

yibble

15-01-03, 16:09

I'm going to quote and comment on some points raised by Style. I'll be using sentences to help the flow.

Originally posted by Style

the developers dont have time to fix everythiung instan they need the time this is the beginning of this game and in a year it will be great

Pretty much all the problems that we are seeing should have been fixed in Beta... Now that we are in Beta5 it's getting a tad annoying playing an unbalanced and unstable game... Better than that, we're all paying for the privilege.

Originally posted by Style

and he is damn right if he does so if he wanted a carebear game he would have created one
you play HIS game if you dont like it why the hell you playing it??

There's a difference between "CareBear games" and Balanced games". There's also a difference from being constructive and downright rude.

Originally posted by Style

if they would listen at every input we would have eq 2 no pvp no pking just a bunch of players flowerpicking near warbots beeing happy the world is so nice, the sun is shining and the birds are singing
THEY DID A CYBERPUNK GAME a harsh and evil world you knew that when you bought it if you dont like the idea dont complain just leave

Setting has no hold over the play style of the game... Study the middle ages, and old legends... You'll see. However I mostly agree, this anarchic setting is good, and I love it. But there do need to be a couple of more guiding systems for players.

Originally posted by Style

why the hell should they do that its very simple to understand and someone who doesnt understand the point must be really stupid:

NO RISK NO REWARD no le = risk of being pked etc but reward of more exp and better stuff, with LE = absolute safety but you pay your price
got it ?

Forgive my English, but what utter Bollocks! I feel that those who choose to leave LEs in should suffer no XP or item use constraints odifferent to those of non-LE'd players. There should be no penalty other than Clan membership which is instrically linked to politics and fighting.

Originally posted by Style

lol the idiots are those people who are not able to solve a problem alone
you dont like being killed? then hunt the pks
otherwise dont whine or offend people who are just better than you and kick your ass
you got the option
put the LE in
you dont like it?
then die and dont ask for ncps to do it you already got them in plaza, viarosso and pp
everywhere else its UNSAVE
got it?
but in your case i would play eq or a single player game since you seem not to get the idea of ONLINE gaming you interact with players you hunt together you fight together against enemies
so dont ask the programmers to make npcs to do YOUR JOB
put the carebear chip in you newbie

Typical "Put your LE chip back in you newbie." attitude... I wonder what you'll say after the next patch when that funtionality is removed... Probably a string of colourful expletives.

Originally posted by Style

hmm have you seen any cyberpunk movie (eg mad max) or did you read any books ?
i guess no
how should there be a realistic autopunishement
the only realistic punishement is if you hunt the pks down
well and in savezones the guards
stay realistic dude cuz all i see is a whining carebear posting stuff that would destroy a game not only for every pk and pvper but also for those who know how to roleplay cyberpunk
as far as i can say
YOU CANT PVP
YOU CANT PK
YOU CANT ROLEPLAY
YOU DONT INTERACT WITH OTHER PLAYERS

Typical MTV attitude. Mad Max is no CyberPunk movie. Read a BOOK! I'd suggest Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"

QuantumDelta

15-01-03, 16:25

The retort of a weak mind style...heh

Martin, it is not that people have trouble dealing with just pks, but the point is, in a world like neocron where harsh punishment dealt on sight is normal, one kill would make you KoS no matter who you are, for a lifetime.
This is also a problem because the people of the same faction trying to stop a pk is powerless to do so because they make themselves a target (many times I've had negative soul light for stopping a 'friendly' pk, and been stopped/shot at by other neutral/hostile factions that normally leave me alone...).
n00b pking, is extremely non-user-friendly, and is likely to cause people to leave, the LE chip which nerfs players, is not a viable solution atm, whether it was at another point, I don't know, but it really isn't acceptable anymore, PKs cry 'put yer LE chip in' simply because it's their only recourse against the 'don't kill newbies' kind of thing.

My point is, killing someone would lead to being head hunted, for your life time.
Killing someone who is being head hunted should be ok.
Warzones/factional wars shouldn't really apply with this rule (apart from being head hunted by a particular faction, I think this ideas been voiced by someone quite well already...), however if a TG (example only) decided to camp the sewers in Plaza 1 or 2, or where ever else, and kill level 20 and below, even if they're only level 30, they're almost unstoppable because of the learning curve.
These issues need to be addressed, as the game isn't exactly newbie friendly atm, if someone gave you a list of all the non-newbie friendly things in the game, or if you started a char with no outside benefits involved and leveled it on pluto i expect you would feel the same as many of these people do.
Try playing your game, as everyone else has played it, then see what you make of it.

I'm not flaming, not biting at you, just trying to help you make this game better then it is, I *DO NOT* want to see Neocron fail, but as things are, it is going to, maybe before, maybe after SWG or other MMO's come out, but it will do so soon if it is not lifted off it's current rails.

Bradleystoke

15-01-03, 16:28

Originally posted by Brother Dirge
[B]Players randomly PK lower players due to the fact there will be little or no retribution by the victim. You want to minimize random PK'ing - ADD A BOUNTY SYSTEM tied to PK'ING.

For every noob you gank, your wanted level (and the appropriate cash reward) goes up.

When a PK'r is finally killed and the bounty collected, slap a LE chip into him/her and let it be non-removable until the player gains X amount of XP or SL. Let them be forced to live in society with a peaceful manner to other players.

Good idea mate!

We want bounties along with mechanics in place which empowers people, not making us all potential victims.

5150

15-01-03, 16:40

Maybe I'm generalising now but I'm begining to see a pattern (not just from this thread)

Some people seem to attribute a cyberpunk setting to a lawless anarchy setting. Now while its fair so say that there are areas of complete lawlessness, these also tend to be the places that no one wants to be. Thus they feel that no rationale or explanation needs to exist for their actions because the setting provides the justification itself.

Now, dont get me wrong, if you want to play a psycho killer (sorry I realise thats someones forum name and this isnt a reference to them) be my guest, but are you sure you are playing that psycho 100% of your time in game? I doubt it, and while you may want to _try_ and reason away your completely sane and lucid gaming moments (such as asking nicely to have something research/constructed and then paying for it) as a split personality (or similar) you and I both know that this is simply a lame excuse to justify mindless killing yet still being able to get your stuff made/repaired/researched or your implants put back in when it suits you (you want to be _bad_ but not so bad that no one will deal with you when you need it)

Neocron City is anything _but_ a lawless Anarchy (if it were TG wouldnt have anything to fight against) and as such that kind of behaviour (even _in_ character) would be punished, and this is probably why the factions that start outside Neocron city are not recommended for the beginner (because its just not as safe). So while you may be able to 'get away with it' (in a RP sence) outside Neocron city - it shouldnt really be an option inside Necrons safe zones (i.e. Plaza and Via Roso)

Mad max may be post-apolocalypse but its not really cyberpunk (no technology) Matrix 1 wasnt _really_ cyberpunk as most of it occur in the 'modern day' setting (2 may well be different) Johnny Pneumonic is a good example of a Cyberpunk film as is Blade Runner and Judge Dread, they have the technology, and the feel of being 'on the edge', the Law is evident (and absolute) but so is the danger, but rarely (except in the case of complete psychos) do people just randomly kill one another, the stakes are too high (as the punishment is often death in a world with no RepGens) unless there is something to gain (and you never know when that nice little hooker you plan to mug on the street corner is actually packing a magnum and will blow you head off :-)

Quede

15-01-03, 16:40

Originally posted by sickman
Some people say "Random PKs destroy the RP environment!!"....well thats really YOUR problem. Yes, YOUR problem, its YOUR bad RP thats making it ruin your fun. RP isn't static people, you have to deal with other peoples actions, good and bad, and make it work for you. Yes, thats a harsh reality to face, but it's all in how you handle a death. Don't take it personally, cause if theres any one constant to a random PK, is that its not personal.

The jokers that run around random PKing should just be thought of as batshit crazy freaks that need to be hunted down by other, slightly less insane killers.

Oh I'm a crazy killer.....I am RP'ing by random killing....yes....

HOW many times have I heard that statement in my years of mudding? OH to have a nickel per....

But see on most muds they were FULL LOOT so if someone really
pissed me off I'd whack em and take ALL their toys. There was
a PK win/loss counter usually, and other ill affects when you
got PK'd and when you performed a PK.

Here there is NO detriment, you get killed and you have to
get re imp'd, and sit at the GR for a while. Lose a weapon maybe.
A hunk of meat or a medikit usually.

Crazy killers would be hunted down and killed, and death IS final
just not in Neocron, they come back in 5 minutes.

Ultima

15-01-03, 16:48

wow this post is a long one, and even more wow at how many of the MAIN CLAN LEADERS and OLD SKOOL BETA PLAYERS seem to of been pushed over the edge.

Those who don't know, Im an Old skool Beta player and a Main Clan leader (on Saturn)

I must admit if I didnt have a clan to run, I maybe be a bit frustrated with the game at its current stage. I play Neocron to Co run my clan with my brother and a Old mate from another Realm. We run the clan with one main view, that is...'Skrew politics lets have sum fun' we don't demand our members do things, we love OP battles and helping our one and only choosen allie. We recruit any and all ranks and classes of any age or gender. We will advise, help and protect any of our members. We try and RP although its hard when others dont sumtimes.

NOW ... RANDOM PKERS. To name 2.. Starkes and Syrus on Saturn, they spend all day and night running round the entire world of Neocron going to big hunting areas where players hunt, oftern close to death. They then run in get the kill pick the dropped weapon up and run off. If they get caught out and think for one second that they may die they put all their Quik belt items in their bag and just stand there.

Theres no role play here, they are purely griefing. My clan will protect any True Family or New Era Mafia member, but how can we when by the time we arrive the PKer is way gone. My clan will re-make the players guns, re poke them and so on which helps heal the grief caused but for those not in a clan like ours, well they are gonna be getting tired of this game real quick.

I suggest a couple of things:
1)make a none RPK list for NC, those on the list will then drop 10% of their bag contents to stop them cheating death.

2)Allow 1 or 2 clans to be blessed by KK power, allow them stronger resists stronger armour. Make it so they can only kill ppl on say the RPK list and let them go hunt down the cities criminals. Theres plenty of thought still to be put into this one, maybe their powers only worked in the Outzone or in none grief spots. Alot of trust would be needed here, u would have to choose your friends well.

3)put a limit on how lower level u can PK, as in if a maxed out PKer attacks a low level player he wont do any damage. To stop this being exploited the low level bracket would not be able to attack back or say hack out posts/do damage to vehicles.

Well theres probably many more ways round the situation, I nor can my clan fight ppl like starkes every day, we have tried, and sumtimes been succesful, but theres too many bonuses and cowedly techniques these Random PKers are using.

ANY NEW PLAYER wanting to join my clan is welcome, just mail us in game.

Kind regards, Charlee/Phoenix Ultima

Celt

15-01-03, 16:50

Some people never learn.

Megazoid

15-01-03, 16:55

Can I have Spookies moderator job now? (since he seem to have a total loathing for the game) :D

Red Knight

15-01-03, 17:08

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
I've seen a couple of complaints about random PKing. What I don't understand is why don't the people who complain use the ingame mechanics to go against that? Why don't vet players (e.g. like Spookie, a highly valued NC long timer who PMed me that he also has concerns about random PKers in Neocron) initiate a clan to protect newbies? PvP _is_ a base element of the game. That also means that we want to give more freedom to the players and give _you_ the tools to go against random PKers. Hey, it's a post-apocalyptic cyberpunk world, so why don't you realize that there are some amok weirdos going postal?

Here's what I would do: Keep your Law Enforcer in until you grow stron enough. Organize yourself with other players who suffer from that same problem. Ask high lvl players to help or even protect you when you want to explore unsafe zones. There has to be another solution than turning Neocron into Carebear's paradise. I'm open for your input.

AARRGGGHH, I always see the good threads when they are 300 pages long, unfortunatly I dont have 1.5 months to read through it:D But I have to agree with Martin, from what I have seen in the game I think the best thing is for the comunity to gank the gankers.

For example, last night in Plaza 2 Ron Trade center were the A&W shop and the level 4 cellar is I saw one of the main good guy players there telling someone who just PK'ed in the cellar that if they come back and keep doing it they will make his life hell in Neocron, they will assign groups in the clan to hunt them down every day if they keep it up. The PK was PKing and the good guy wen down and kicked his azz so high the PK though he did a magic synch 800 ft above ground:D

I have had a few clan people offer me member ship and so far all of them have anti PKing rules, they hunt the PK.

Maybe what people should do is find the names of some of the popular good guys and DM them when they have a problem and I am sure they will help out, just have some basic info like - Location of incedent - Name of PK - Class - Rank of PK and if possible the typ of weapon they used.

oor_wullie

15-01-03, 17:14

Originally posted by Style

as far as i can say
YOU CANT PVP
YOU CANT PK
YOU CANT ROLEPLAY
YOU DONT INTERACT WITH OTHER PLAYERS

wtf do you want in neocron ??? this is definitly the wrong game for you

this will never happen

roleplayers will stay
pks will stay
pvpers will stay
crying newbies and carebears will be gone, well shit on it

and its called PKS not PKERS

pk = playerkiller
pker = something like playerkillerer

hehehe. cheers styleee.

i was thinking about RPing and playing a random killer. back when RP was about mates getting together with a bunch of books and dice and sheets of paper, we used to RP for collective fun. that was the main aim. and we were m8s too. now, how long do you think someone would last in that group if they went into EVERY game session and tried to kill the other players characters.

hehehe

i can just imagine it. the guy would be KOd but quick, and never asked back.

now we have games in which that is no longer necessary or possible, cos loads of people are playing and if someone wants to be a dick, then they can be. and no one can throw them out the kitchen (or wherever) for being a total gimp.

but wait. the vast majority of people in neocron don't play that way. i ONLY meet 3 kinds of players. the first (about 95 percent) are incredibly friendly, helpful people, enjoying the game, and enjoying the company. clanchat is my constant companion. even in fiercely competitive hunting areas people will give you a boost or a heal, despite the fact that this might mean you get to a doomie b4 they do. these people trust each other, giving items and money to tradeskillers. info is shared, secrets disclosed, relationships are made, and fun and hilarity ensues.

it's feckin great. i love the players of neocron because they are almost all a great bunch of people.

the second kind don't say much and are just playing for themselves, but don't do any damage or harm. about 3 percent. then you've got the 2 percent of pkERS (haha).

so who is right?

i was playing RP games from the very first AD&D book released. a LONG time ago. i know RP. and i know that the most important thing is not the RP, but having a good time with your m8s. if that means breaking character occasionally to help out, so be it.

the only RP game i ever played where you HAD to play against each other was called Paranoia (anyone else remember this?). it disappeared because no one could be bothered playing co-operatively and against one another at the same time ALL the time. it was a good idea, but not much fun. life is too short.

style, try making some more friends. helping people. it's so much more fun that way. i can't understand how a pure PK (hehehe - have it your way) can enjoy the game.

well anyway, you should be happy now. martin has given you full licence for your gaming "style". seems the rest of us really ARE wrong, and you are right. nice one.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 17:14

Click on the link I have put in my signature, I have come up with a few ideas that I think might help this situation a lot and add to, not take away from, this game. In that post I also included some links to much needed content additions that myself and others have come up with.

Please read them and comment, I'd like to know what everyone thinks.

blumblumshub

15-01-03, 17:15

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
I've seen a couple of complaints about random PKing.

Does anyone else find it odd that he's seen a COUPLE of complaints, when it's probably the most popular theme for a thread on the whole board, second only to people telling him why they are no longer playing?

He doesn't get out much, does he?

Oh well, back to work I think
Blum

yibble

15-01-03, 17:17

I think it's kinda like "See no Evil, Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil."

Fetchez

15-01-03, 17:19

Originally posted by yibble
Typical MTV attitude. Mad Max is no CyberPunk movie. Read a BOOK! I'd suggest Philip K. Dick's "Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?"
Yibble knows what he is talking about. Dick should be required reading for this game imo. I've just finished "Flow My Tears, the Policeman Said". Now THERE is an example of a cyberpunk police-state! You get sent to a Forced Labour Camp for merely being an university sutdent!

Neal Stephenson's "Diamond Age" is another good book for Neocron I can think of off the top of my head. 2000AD should also be compulsory...

Brew

15-01-03, 17:23

Personally, it just bugs me when people try to use "risk" to mean "justification".

Because you CAN shoot someone does not mean you SHOULD.

Sure, taking out the LE means that you put yourself at risk at being shot. That's just the way it is.

But people, all too often, try to hide behind "psychopath rp" as justification to be an asshole. Some people just ENJOY ruining other people's good time. No amount of conjecture as to someone's sexual abuse will answer why this is, it just is.

In our Warning Label society, people try and use RISK to mean JUSTIFICATION and pass off personal responsibility. To park your vehicle outside the MB puts you at risk at getting it shot up while you're inside. However, it DOES NOT justify shooting it up. People who do such a thing have to be willing to shoulder the consequences of their actions. You made a conscious choice to aim the weapon at the vehicle and pull the trigger. No one made you do that. People who try and say "its your fault for leaving it outside" are the same fucking morons who sue McDonalds for spilling coffee on themselves.

Just because you see a low level target, a n00b who took out his LE, does not mean you SHOULD kill them. Sure, you can, its valid inside game mechanics. They took the risk of taking out the LE and need to deal with the consequences and accept getting killed. But the killer need realize that he is a Bad Guy. He will be hunted with unfair numbers. He will be taunted and reviled. People will hate you ingame, and depending on your conduct possibly IRL. You pulled the trigger, it was YOUR CHOICE. No one forced you to take a steaming hot cup of coffee and try to pour in a few sugar packets while driving.

You burned YOURSELF.

I believe this last comment pretty much sums it up.

Opiate

15-01-03, 17:25

Originally posted by blumblumshub

Does anyone else find it odd that he's seen a COUPLE of complaints, when it's probably the most popular theme for a thread on the whole board, second only to people telling him why they are no longer playing?

Does anyone else find it odd that a small amount of the players whining about getting PK-ed post it on the forums

The majority of players keep it in game, and move on. Just a small amount comes into the forums to whine about it, strangely enough these seem to have the most influence :rolleyes:

RazorX

15-01-03, 17:29

Originally posted by Martin J. Schwiezer
What I don't understand is why don't the people who complain use the ingame mechanics to go against that?
Maybe because the ingame mechanics are F'd up. Someone kills another player in front of a Copbot and puts gun away. I pull gun to kill that person, and Copbot kills me. Ya, players can really use ingame mechanics to go against it.

Log in and play, Martin. Log in and play.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 17:31

Arguing about whether or not there is a problem will gain NOTHING. It's very clear there is a problem. If there weren't a problem, then people wouldn't be complaining. No matter how logical it may seem, justifying the current playstyles is not going to change the opinions of those who want to leave the game because of the random PKing, vehicle busting, griefing, and newb ganking.

What we all need to do are come up with possible solutions to the problem. And by solutions I mean CHANGES. If the system doesn't change, then the current trend will simply continue.

I reiterate my previous request that people take the time to read some suggestions I have posted. Follow the link in my signature. I would very much like for others to make suggestions of their own as well as comment on mine and others'. Get some ideas for change out there. We as players do have an opportunity to help KK make this game better.

Lexxuk

15-01-03, 17:39

Crazy Crazy Idea's...

1) set up a small logic code...

a - Is player killed faction enemy yes/no
b - Is player killed more than 10 SKILL levels below you yes/no
If a = no then soul light loss. If b = yes then soul light loss. If a = no and be = yes then soul light loss & 35% synaptic.

2) the high level players...

Run around every single leveling place, and kill every single person you see. This includes you anti rpk'ers etc. With every single high level player, killing every single low level player, that should FORCE KK into doing something about it.

3) In Game Faction

If player is Faction Enemy of Next etc.. use of GR/Subway is refused, they have to walk everywhere to kill people, and then cant GR out.

4) Faction Sympathy

Remove the Clan Sympathy setting. If your personal symp is -100, you should face that fact, not hide behind a clan with +30 etc..

5) No body likes a murderer.

Set ALL guards, TG/TH/MB/NC to kill people with bad soul light.

6) Protect the new players.

The new players, are the players that are more important than the old timers, if you have a server full of capped players, who are always killing the low new players, you wont have any new players to join in, they will all leave.

7) Get your GM's working.

Instead of having your GM's give weapons to their friends o_O get them to actually do their job, make them stand in low leveling area's, and if they see a high level player enter there to grief, get them to spawn STORM Bots, or Cop Bots. I say STORM/Cop, simply because, how often do you see TG people moaning that lots of nice CA people are camping their leveling area's?

8) Soul light is an indicator.

It shows how "bad" you are, it shows your a PK'er, that you kill your own allies, why should it change over time? If it is in the Minus, it should stay there, for a long time, gradually rising, if it drops again, it stays longer, if it drops a 3rd time, the only way to raise it, is to kill someone HIGHER than you, who has bad soul light, and if you manage that and it drops AGAIN, your soul light will never change from "copbot KOS".

9) Storekeepers

They can see right? They can see you have a weird red name? So why would they serve you? "Hi, I'm a murderer, I'm pk'in all the time, like my soul light?" "sure do, you want some nice ammo to go kill more people?"

10) Find your plan

When you first started making this game, you must have had some idea of how you wanted it to be? Did you want it with people running around, killing all your low level players? Or did you want PvP, epic battles, fights between factions, clan wars? Did you want Zone camping, or did you want running battles in Pepper Park?

11) Figure out the future.

The only 3rd person MMORPG! RAR! YEY! KEWL! For NOW. But look at the way the world turns. Look at the granddaddy of the 3rd person, Doom. Look at what has come from that, Quake, Unreal, Deus Ex etc. You think that other software houses aint gonna start to make RPG's like this? At the moment, you have the COMPLETE MARKET for the 3rd Person MMORPG, thats right, 100% share! However, that will change, you will face competition from the likes of Sony, Microsoft, Codemasters, Sierra, Electronic Arts etc. If they see there is a demand, they will meet the demand, and they will use funds you can only dream about. If you dont fix this problem, in a way that meets the needs of the PvP'ers, whilst catering for the needs of the RP'ers, someone else will, and then, it will be goodbye NC.

To be totally honest, this game cant survive as a pure PvP game, the grapical engine does not allow it (4fps battles 200+ ping?) So work on making it RPG, not RPK.

Tazo

15-01-03, 17:39

again, i have to say: it was a mistake to take out last location. you get PKed (sometimes you dont even know who did it), then you respawn and have NO idea where the PK is. this big anti-PK-clan doesnt work either. the newbie gets PKed, asks the anti-PK-clan for help, they come... but the PK is long gone by now.

what we need to effectively help ourselves against RPKing:

1. means to track somebody. maybe lastloc was a bit too easy, yeah. so why not something different? like a GPS-gun. if you shoot someone with it, you can use your tracker to know where he is.

2. death messages. if not for everyone in the sector, at least for the one who killed and the one who died. you fancy neocron to be a shooter? then give us shooter-features. "Tazo got his ass ripped apart by 10wnnz0r's Plasma Cannon!". or something.

Halbarad

15-01-03, 17:59

Long thread., I hope Martin takes the time to read it all.

First issue for me is the Copbots. It is COMPLETELY unrealistic for them to be allowing any CA-hostile faction to be roaming the city at will-INCLUDING Crahn Sect. As it stands, the real world analogy would go like this:

Cop 1: "Did you see that guy?! He's blown up 6 buildings and killed 60 people on two mass murdering sprees with an AK-47 in Times Square! Shouldn't we do something?"
Cop 2: "Nah, he's a known terrorist, that's just what they do. We're looking for the guy that mugged the mayor in Central Park. Now pass me another doughnut, would ya?"

Neocron has the resources to make the Cop- and S.T.O.R.M.Bots; it's a HUGE place with a lot of manufacturing capacity (and presumably the raw materials to put into manufacturing). Twilight Guardian is a terrorist/freedom fighter group taking shelter in the caves carved out in the side of a canyon. All they can do is employ human guards (with their own "proprietary" technology).

Playing TG is SUPPOSED to be a challenge. Other than the initial walk from Canyon City to Neocron, it's anything BUT now. TG players go to Neocron itself to get everything they need: pokes, research, construction, the whole nine yards. The only challenge to it is running past the reapers at the doorstep of Canyon City, and anyone can figure out within a few tries how to get past one without getting hit or at least taking too much damage.

So far, I know of ONE TG who pokes and one or two that construct (if Space Antelope's still playing). As it is, the faction is unbalanced; there are so many tanks from TG with the purpose of RPKing it's not even funny. There are almost no support characters; maybe a few PE hackers or pokers. What we need to do (both players AND KK) is MAKE it a challenge to be TG. FA helping TG is up to their discretion; I see TG in Techhaven often enough, and NOT being friendly, that if I were FA I wouldn't be assisting them. NO city runner should help a TG (from an RP standpoint), and they shouldn't be allowed into the safe areas of the city at all.

To sum up:
1. Copbots should shoot all CA faction enemies (Crahn and TG are both active rebel groups, just that you don't see near the activity from Crahn since they're neutral with a lot of people) I'm not sure about BD or Tsunami (aren't they neutral with CA?) but in that case you've got a known member of a criminal syndicate-also a completely viable target. Remember, this is a gritty, cyberpunk world-the cops don't NEED proof, suspicion is more than enough.

2. Copbots should be stationed near every genrep in the controlled areas of the city: PP, Plaza, Via Rosso, and Outzone Station. There are ways into the city other than the main gate; let the TG players wander around the outzone for a bit if they want to get into the city. Combine this with #1 and you solve the problems of TG players running wild through the city. If they can manage to get past the copbots in Pepper Park, more power to 'em, but it's going to take a lot of work-AS IT SHOULD.

3. Players: It's your call, but my recommendation is stop providing services or any other form of assistance to TG players. If you don't want to blacklist TG at large, start compiling a list of all the players that RPK (shouldn't take long, just ask around) as well as the major RPK clans and blacklist them.

TG is going to cry "foul" here, but have you tried getting into Canyon City lately if you're not a tank? You're LUCKY to get in and out without getting turned into swiss cheese by the guards if you don't have good energy resist-and that's if you don't run into any actual TG players on the way.

They don't want us in their canyon, fine. Then we get to keep them out of our city-with EVERY resource we have available, not just the ones that make it "fair".

LagWarrior

15-01-03, 18:23

I agree with Martin, conflicts with "psychopathic" runners have to be solved ingame.

As i got PKed the 1st time. i was enraged. I couldn't do anything: I was new to the game, knew nothing about places to level, the map, the game mechanics etc. I was a complete newbie as all of you sometimes were or still are. Instead of moaning in forums like this, I accepted to live under a constant thread in this post apocalyptic world of Neocron, it makes this game thrilling to play.

Without this challenge, me and a lot of people i personally know would have quit this game. You don't see people like me frequently on the forums. Instead of starting pathetic threads, we are playing the game.

Maybe a dedicated care bear, we-are-all-friends server can become a home for all those who are afraid of dealing with conflict and want to live in a virtual world of happiness, where game masters watch over them and tell them what to do all the time.

Enough said, over and out.

Bradleystoke

15-01-03, 18:33

Originally posted by M. Garibaldi
Having read all the post so far I suggest the following (R)PK countermeasures:
1. Enable last position tracking for people with negative SL (SL < -15). Everyone should be able to track their position. Suddenly the hunters (PKs) become the prey.

Agree wholeheartedly

2. ...worse introduce "minimum sympathy to stay" which should be somewhere around -10 to 10. When the sympathy drops below that treshold the char is automatically disbanded from the clan.[/qoute]

And faction as well, perhaps?

[quote]
4. A bounty system for chars with negative SL. Lion Reeza himself pays a reward for killing a char with negative SL. (SL < -15) The reward should be in a corelation to the SL. Of course this could lead into exploiting so it should be limited to once a day and the name of the bounty hunter who got the reward should be displayed somewhere in the citycom.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from and it's a definite step in the right direction.

These suggestions are meant to make a PK's life harder but not to interfere with normal PvP.

Quede

15-01-03, 18:45

Originally posted by LagWarrior
I agree with Martin, conflicts with "psychopathic" runners have to be solved ingame.

A novel idea. But again, the game has no way of dealing with
these people effectively. In 5 minutes they are back to the
sewer cleansing.

The safe zones in Neocron City crawl with enemies that can
literally reach out and hug a CopBot. Does this make sense?
I can't take a stroll around TG (even when I had my LE in I was
verbally abused, "You don't belong here, leave now!", hmm
and yet its OK for you to be in Plaza 1 getting pokes...HMMM)

And on that note, where is the stealth factor? How does one
covertly enter TG's Canyon, Tech Haven or Neocron when
your name/rank/faction is displayed for all to see like some
giant personal billboard in huge red letters?

Anyone that thinks being a psychopath/serial killer is a RP
style, has none. Altho I heard of a player inviting people to their
apartment and killing them....that at least has a little theme
to it...

PK with intelligent RP is a great thing. Mindless slaughter will get
this game shelved faster then it currently is on track for.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 18:51

Okee doke, I think the brainport has some kind of sign for most people saying "do not enter" or some such. Translation: aparently no one goes there. So, here's my ideas to help out the situation. Yes I know technically it's posting the same thing in two places, but it is truly applicable to this thread as well as the brainport....

Well, I've got a number of ideas prepped and ready to fire. Many deal with PK issues directly, others indirectly.

First off, we need to look at what the problem currently seems to be. Fact is, in Neocron, all you need are a handful of random PKers and griefers, and you get a vast majority of players who are tormented with little to no way to fight back. Griefers of course argue that whole "LE" thing, but we all know the standard griefer tactics of things such as zoning into a safe zone, etc. Also there is the simple fact that doesn't mean much to these griefers unless they are dieing constantly; something the playerbase can't manage.

So what can be done? Preventative systems have been shown time and again to be miserable failures. Most, if not all preventative systems are either highly exploitable, overly carebearish, or both. In most cases, preventative systems even heighten the problem. So it's clear in my mind that prevention is not the way to go. The LE chip and safe zones are preventative systems. Safe zones are exploitable by PKers as it gives them safe haven when the anti-Pkers finally arrive to kill them. The LE chip is too restrictive and merely serves as an excuse.

What should be implemented is REACTIVE systems of punishment. The soullight and faction penalty systems are steps in the right direction. However, they do not serve a great enough purpose. Both those systems can be utilized and expanded to add features that will not only help alleviate much of the PKing problems, but actually add dynamic content and help the RPing atmosphere of the game.

IDEA number 1
The first concept I have mentioned before in a previous brainport post. Whenever a significant amount of fighting happens within Neocron between players, whether it be inside a sewer or in Pepper Park, logically one would think the police would hear about it and try to put a stop to it. So, when large firefights happen within the city, with this new system, attack squads of STORMbots would immediately appear on the scene and attack all runners involved in the fighting. After the fighting stops, the STORMbots would remain there for a couple of minutes to "secure the area". Anyone with a weapon even in their quickbar would be warned to put it away and shot if they don't comply. Anyone with a weapon drawn would be shot without even a warning. In addition to the strike squad being called, everyone involved in the fighting would be flagged with a special "wanted" flag that is independant of soullight. This flag would remain active until the runner is either killed or exits the city. Runners with a "wanted" flag would be treated just as runners with very low soullight; they would be attacked on sight by Copbots and STORMbots.

The attack squad and criminal flag system would help limit repeated PKing in the sewers and Pepper Park, while not preventing it. PKers can would still be free to attack whomever they wished, but killing sprees would be answered with force from the City law enforcement. In a sense, this would reduce the number of people PKing just to PK and actually be a very good thing for players who truly wish to RP a criminal lifestyle since they would now have to make sure not to get the attention of the cops.

IDEA number 2
Another concept which will help is a bounty system. However, the system I have in mind is actually not at all what most players envision. There would in fact be no money to be made by players in this bounty system. The way it works is, runners with exceedingly low soullight would be hunted by NPC bounty hunters. Any runner with extremely low soullight will have a chance of having bounty hunters spawn nearby as long as those runners are out in the wastelands. The check would be made once every several minutes. The number of bounty hunters and the chance of them appearing would be based on how low the runner's soullight is. These bounty hunters would be extremely high ranking and should carry VARYING weapons. That means, you could encounter bounty hunters wielding anything from a uranium modded Liberator to an artifact Devil's Grace to a anti-personel modded Moon Striker. The bounty hunters should vary between rank 90 and rank 120. Killing a bounty hunter should not yield their weapon, but neither should they drop nothing. Their loot should be appropriately significant, with a good chance for rare parts to drop. This system would help protect players from the game's absolute worst offenders while at the same time actually giving these PKers an opportunity for added content and adding to the feeling of RPing a wanted criminal.

IDEAS 3, 4, and 5
Last but not least, we must address the issue that some PKers are only PKing out of boredom. To this the issue needs to be addressed with brand new content; preferably dynamic content though. Epic runs will keep many busy for a while, but some it might only last a week or even as little as a day.

Additional Hacking ideas (solutions to issues with hacknet) (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42468)

An idea to help make OP battles larger (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42065)

A fantastic idea to help make OP battles truly epic (http://neocron.jafc.de/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39321)

With reactive punishment systems in place and added dynamic content, the problems currently caused by PKing would at the very least be decreased dramatically, and as a bonus, the game would be immensely more fun, especially at higher levels.

Psycho Killa

15-01-03, 19:06

What is wrong with you people i started a spy on saturn and ive been pked once so far ive gotten myself up to about 50 dex what makes u guys such a target and my little spy is untouched? DONT HUNT IN WELL KNOWN PLACES OUTZONE 4 MB Etc.

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 19:08

Those are some very good ideas Null, but yeah, no one goes to brainport I'm afraid. You see, there is a guy while back who posted a thread at the top stating that he hated brainport, because its the graveyard of threads......

Bradleystoke

15-01-03, 19:09

Originally posted by Archeus
Player run justice does work if the mechanics are in place.

This is all we are asking for, isn't it - we want to be able to deal justice in equal amounts that PK'ers deal their own unique brand.

I don't want to see NC nerfed, and random PK'ing is part of the game.

However I do have an issue of PK'ers using the game mechanics to kill people. Whacking a newbie is one thing, whacking a person who's zoning into an area or coming out of a genrep is another.

Another eloquent issue laid bare - well done mate. Pity Martin seems to have lost sight of these points so far.

The removal of the stat penalty on newbies with LE's in is probably the best way to go. At the low level end of the game, your more intrested in whacking monsters either to enjoy the game or to level up. Your not going to get into PvP seriously until your over 20/20 (at least I didn't). Then higher level people with LE's should get a higher penalty.

Yep, why penalise new players at the start when they're looking to find their feet and get a feel for the game?

Also another solution is to make the penalty of killing your own faction hurt. A Fallen Angel PK'er shouldn't be allowed at all to wander around Tech Haven if they have -30 or less in FA faction points. It won't stop random PK'ing but it would lower the PK'ing of faction members.

Don't stop them from doing this, but give a penalty. Outcast to the wastelands? Move to Anarchy Breed? gunned down by everything in NC? Entrances+GR's locked in TechHaven/NC/TG? Drop more on death.

Yup, faction guards should have the power to treat these players as faction enemies and deal out suitable punishment - tear 'em another arsehole! :D

A fining system could be another possibility - factions penalise rogue employees in various, multiple forms depending on actions.

Also a visual marker on the person to show they are a killer. Mark thier name blue say if they have killed x amount of people <40 levels below them within a set time. This would (at least on pluto) show the trades people who they are rearming and would cut off thier supplies. This already happens to some extent on Pluto.

Way overdue and a simple yet effect way to start the ball rolling. We have name, clan and faction info already, so lets have a WANTED tag added, or similar to the list. This fits nicely for when bounties are introduced.

The current death system is fine as well, I like the fact that you only loose one item and if you have Pker camping an area throwing yourself at them as a newbie actually gives you XP and them nothing.

Ties in with the idea of industrial warfare - if it had an impact on the StockX performance of a rival faction, this would fit the NC world perfectly: the 'random' element to PKing would be moot and actually have a purpose.

Of course, killing lower levels than yourself would actually do nothing to improve/decrease operating factors of a rival faction, and if anything have negative ramifications - not working at your optimum efficiency or something, if a reason is needed.

Also give a particular player class the ability to hunt. The citycom system pointing out where people were was great. Too bad the PK'ers used it as well. I think for sacrificing say some combat based skills that a player should be allowed to hunt another (either through hacking or another means). Like say I walk into Cityadmin and use my Barter skill to bribe an official to tell me the location of a certain cityadmin faction player (this stops faction enemies from doing it easily).

I like this idea! Besides introducing the bounty system against PK'ers, create a 'top tier' of players within a faction who become Licenced To Kill runners. This idea would mean the creation of a player police force who can hunt down PK'ers in any area within Neocron city.

Add to that a change in the role of Cop & Stormbots who would also shoot on sight runners who are wanted, and it begins to give the game more equilibrium and take the power away from PKers and seeing cause and effect become a reality for everyone.

Great post, btw.

Knoc

15-01-03, 19:11

All i can say is AMEN MARTIN!
Damn I really hope you won't pull back from the statement you made beginning this post.

This whole issue reminds me of all those bitching noobs (sorry don't have anything better to say about them) back in UO. Over there the Dev team actually listened to them, and screwded over all those people pk'ing. These days UO is like candy land. It sucks ass, biggest problem is all those people complaining back then are actually pk'ing themselves now, cause living in a candy land is boring as fuck.

I suggest all you people complaining at Reakktor take a look at this http://www.wtfman.com/mcd/eclipse.htm . This is a flash movie made by one of the greatest pk'ers that UO ever knew and how he felt about the whole situation. Not only about pk'ers being screwed over. But also about connection issues, constant bugs and what more, and this was almost 2 years after UO got released. And I know everyone amongst you, that have actually played UO pre-trammel will get a warm feeling in their stumic, wishing things never changed in UO.

jernau

15-01-03, 19:20

Originally posted by Bradleystoke

Martin,

If you used this argument to encourage investors in the same manner as you've done in this post of yours, what impression would they get of you - be honest? This has to be the most ill concieved and out of character post I've seen you make so far.
....
Sorry about the wordiness of this, but the irritation-o-meter hit the red when I read your post, Martin... you bombed out on this one, big time

I am deeply disappointed to say I agree fully with Bradleystoke on this one. My confidence in KK has been damaged more by this one post than by anything else I have seen or experienced in or out of the game. Martin's support of and involvement in these forums has been a calming influence on a community placed under immense stress by the in-game bugs and the chronic failure of all the support mechanisms since Retail began. There are many of us here who love the game despite it's (and KK's) numerous fault's and it grieves me to see the old-guard leaving on such bad terms.

Lately I was becoming so convinced that KK had kicked of the new year with a new vigour (more Events, Granite's promotion, more mods, epic runs, etc. etc. ) but now I just don't know.

Damn I'm depressed now :(

df3

15-01-03, 19:28

PK is indeed a Blight on the game.

I have no interest in playing Unreal Tournament with a trading engine. Which is what we seem to have at the moment. THere are some very good ideas on this thread about what to do. I personally favour the opt in opt out of PvP LE chip idea. Kudos to whoever came up with that.

The only plus point of PKing is that its made me and my other clan members go out of MB/ Cycrow to other far more fun places where 'real' (i use this term very loosely) Roleplaying is going on.

Now I'm a level 40 odd Spy and I dont really care if any of the HATE lot or whoever picks me off i already have some quite good skills that make the game interesting. BUT the problem is Neocron needs new blood. It is getting hard for New Players to get a foot hold due to PK. Check out the PC Zone review of the game 81% may be a good score as was said by KK BUT the last bit sums up the current problems and is likely to put off RPG people who you would think would be the life blood of the game.

And I quote

"The only controversial aspect of Neocron is perhaps the option for open player versus player combat (PvP) in all areas. You can avoid this by keeping your Life Enhancer implanted throughout the game, but you will level slower and suffer higher skill requirements to use weapons and items should you choose to play this way. It seems very strange that people who opt out of PvP for fear of being killed by other players are being penalised in this way, while rampant player killers suffer no such restrictions."

from www.pczone.co.uk

The whole review had a kind of 'this game is a mess but could be good' undertone. I say; KK, take notice of this thread it is obvoiusly the #1 bugbear for users, look at the volume of posts in this tread, use some of the ideas they are great. Oh yeah and get your marketing machine in gear.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 19:31

Originally posted by Knoc
This whole issue reminds me of all those bitching noobs (sorry don't have anything better to say about them) back in UO. Over there the Dev team actually listened to them, and screwded over all those people pk'ing. These days UO is like candy land. It sucks ass, biggest problem is all those people complaining back then are actually pk'ing themselves now, cause living in a candy land is boring as fuck.
When is declining membership in an MMORPG is a good thing? The fact of the matter is that the people who play to PK are far, far outnumbered by the people who prefer consensual PvP or no PvP at all. Everyone got what they wanted in UO. The PK’s have Felucca with the older rule set and the rest have Trammel. Most of the complaining that I see is from the “PK’s” because they no longer have the loads of unwitting new players to tear apart on a daily basis.

Facts don’t lie. UO was in a membership decline prior to Trammel. Since then it has totally turned itself around and continues to rank among the most popular of the MMORPG’s. And it’s five years old. And it’s looks it. From what the GM’s were saying, of the 150,000+ members back then, under 1000 represented the “PK’s”.

Bad business model to go where the money is? After all, when you boil all of this down we are simply talking about a company and a game.

Style

15-01-03, 19:37

ohh yeah i pked in uo pre trammel (drachenfels) and when trammel came i quitted
i tried half a year later how things goin and noticed it suxx ass
thats it i have quit uo enjoyed rl etc until nc came out
i had a mmorpg that wants pvp again
and i am happy with that and hope that never changes

and for all you guys that flamed me all the time:

READ MARTINS POST
i was right
you play the game in a wrong way
so dont complain, enjoy beeing my victims

Halbarad

15-01-03, 19:43

Thank you for so amply demonstrating the exact attitude that will drive 90% of the playerbase-and the profits-away from this game, Style.

Style

15-01-03, 19:45

Originally posted by hoverboy911

When is declining membership in an MMORPG is a good thing? The fact of the matter is that the people who play to PK are far, far outnumbered by the people who prefer consensual PvP or no PvP at all. Everyone got what they wanted in UO. The PK’s have Felucca with the older rule set and the rest have Trammel. Most of the complaining that I see is from the “PK’s” because they no longer have the loads of unwitting new players to tear apart on a daily basis.

Facts don’t lie. UO was in a membership decline prior to Trammel. Since then it has totally turned itself around and continues to rank among the most popular of the MMORPG’s. And it’s five years old. And it’s looks it. From what the GM’s were saying, of the 150,000+ members back then, under 1000 represented the “PK’s”.

Bad business model to go where the money is? After all, when you boil all of this down we are simply talking about a company and a game.

fact is if there is 1000 pks there will be 5000 whiners but only 500 of them would quit if there wont be anything done about pking

the majority of players either doesnt care about pks or they handle that ingame

in this board are about 20 -30 people whining about pks crating hundreds of posts
but its still 20 - 30 people
SO NOONE CARES ABOUT YOU WHINERS
thats the point
you dont care what pks want
thats ok pks can handle that
but you will need to figure noone gives a shit about you
90% of the players wont complain or whine they will play the game and enjoy it how it is 5% are pks (real pks killing everyone) and 5% are whiners
but if there wont be pks the merc clans etc over short or long will quit since they wont have work or any fun
then the guys will leave who delivered mercs with wepons and stuff used to hire them fopr jobs and we will have a big candyland with 50% players left cuz for the others the game wont be fun any more since when you are maxed there is nothing to do

people wont fight for ops they rather hack it at night
and thats the only pvp aspect instead of pking so all pvp interrested people will leave and as well maxed people will quit pretty soon

Bradleystoke

15-01-03, 19:48

Originally posted by blumblumshub

Does anyone else find it odd that he's seen a COUPLE of complaints, when it's probably the most popular theme for a thread on the whole board, second only to people telling him why they are no longer playing?

He doesn't get out much, does he?

Oh well, back to work I think
Blum

I'm beginning to wonder if this was a deliberate troll or an attempt to antagonise us on Martins part.

Makes you wonder, given the immediacy of replies from the community and the sudden deathly silence from MJS...

BarneyL

15-01-03, 19:50

Ok I feel like being constructive so here are a few suggestion to get the "in game mechanics" actually working.

1) NPCs react to a players personal faction levels possibly to the clans factions too.

2) All NPCs given a faction even shop keepers, shop keepers will not serve faction enemies, discounts will be available for players with high faction levels.

3) Add more faction guards and make them effective so that players might actually worry about going near them, make it so that if a player is a faction enemy they won't survive in the factions HQ (guards should extend beyond this it should be a risk to walk in front of the HQ too)

4) faction guards react to attacks on members of the same faction and will act to defend the player

5) Clans do not have a fixed faction, they simply belong to the faction which has the highest faction rating when an average of all the clan members factions are taken into account. Below a certain level for all faction the clan becomes anarchy breed and all other factions become hostile (yes this means that your clan appartment might end up in a hostile zone but that's your own fault for PKing faction members)

6) not sure what to do with copbots if they become city admin members then a) they need to be of equal strength to other faction guards b) players must have the ability to fight back like they could elsewhere this means no "fully safe" zones however with enough faction guards in plaza and VR area PKs won't last long.

7) rework how faction recovers from negatives, a single kill should have only a small punishment, repeated killing will lead to faction guards becoming hostile. The lower a faction is the harder it should be to raise it (this way repeat killers are punished accidents or one off fights aren't)

8) If a player is attacked by another player they do not loose SL for defending themselves.

This almost removes the need for a simple SL alltogether, the game seems to encourage killing of faction enimies to the point where it's encouraged, with the above points implemented if you PK allies then you'll become hunted by what used to be your own faction guards.
There are issues with copbots being both SL enforcers and CA guards, how would the logic work for example with a city admin member with a negative soul light?

Barney

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 19:58

Originally posted by BarneyL
3) Add more faction guards and make them effective so that players might actually worry about going near them, make it so that if a player is a faction enemy they won't survive in the factions HQ (guards should extend beyond this it should be a risk to walk in front of the HQ too)

Barney

Let me tell you, faction guards suck, all of them.

To facilitate my clan moving 2 times to diff. factions, we attacked the HQs of their faction enemeis.

1. Tangent HQ, no one boke a sweat, we got low SL and I'll go into why that just doesn't work in a sec.

2. BD HQ, Alot harder than the above, but still, the countless pumpgun carring thugs were nothing compaired to us, the 8 simi-high level runners. We murdered them.

Now lets get back on the SL subject, after the Tangent raid, we all had -100 SL. We were CA after all, and we were trying to move to TG to "fight Reeza". Well, funny thing is, after this fell through, we thought we were screwed.....

Nope, we just found out how much SL didn't matter, sure we would get nice CON in the city, but we could go anywhere else, get exactly what we needed so well, that even after I had reached 2 SL, i still had not set foot in the city for the fact there was no real need to.

Thats gotta change for things to get on track.

Gallet

15-01-03, 20:00

I look at it this way. If you're a Carebear, you do not need to take your LE chip out to enjoy the game. If the LE chip and playerkilling never existed, then slower experience/high item requirements would never cause this much bitching.

Now, some people choose to PK. In this world, the players are the monsters, and they hunt you down. Unlike in the PvE world, where you choose where to fight, based on the level of your opponent. As a result, you need a bonus to off-set the experience penalty you now have from being jacked all the time, and to allow you to bring yourself up to speed faster for battles that you have no choice over.

If you can't deal with being PK'ed, and you don't want to wear your LE chip, then you are simply someone who is trying to have their cake and eat it too. There is no reason for someone who won't tollerate being PK'ed to take their LE chip out, other than greed. When they do, they are gambling and often times not accepting the consequences of gambling.

I only feel sorry for the people that truly want to be involved in the PK world as more than a victim from day one, and I hope that is the real issue at hand. I am concerned for their frustration with how long it takes them to become a helpful asset in the battle, since that is the reason they are playing.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 20:13

Originally posted by Ryu No Gekido

Now lets get back on the SL subject, after the Tangent raid, we all had -100 SL. We were CA after all, and we were trying to move to TG to "fight Reeza". Well, funny thing is, after this fell through, we thought we were screwed.....

Nope, we just found out how much SL didn't matter, sure we would get nice CON in the city, but we could go anywhere else, get exactly what we needed so well, that even after I had reached 2 SL, i still had not set foot in the city for the fact there was no real need to.

Thats gotta change for things to get on track.

In the suggestion I posted, people with exceptionally low SL would be hunted while in the wastelands by extremely high level NPC bounty hunters. It would make playing a criminal much more difficult, but it would add spice and challenge. If PKs wanted to go out into the wastelands, they'd have to keep an eye out for bounty hunters or they'd find themselves very dead very fast. Players fending off PKs also might suddenly find themselves aided by a large group of NPC bounty hunters as well. PKers who PK simply not for any RP reasons would be more likely to want to avoid these bounty hunters. As such, they would probably wait somewhere safe for them, like their apartment, for their SL to go back to a managable level. At the very least it would take them out of the game for a while as a punishment. At best, it will make them think twice before they go ganking people left and right (what SL was meant to do; be a deterrent).

Ultima

15-01-03, 20:16

Originally posted by Style

fact is if there is 1000 pks there will be 5000 whiners but only 500 of them would quit if there wont be anything done about pking

where in God's name do you get off stating that is a fact, go on give me hard proof of these statistics please. Or did you just rip them out of the top of your head because they sounded right in your eyes???

Archeus

15-01-03, 20:17

What Gallet said.

Neocron is not UO. It's a player vs player combat based game. Trade skills complement the combat aspect of clans.

I would prefer to see a way to lower the level of culling of newbies by allowing players to deal with the idiots in game rather then nerfing everyone.

You know if newbies weren't told they were not being penalised with the LE in they wouldn't remove them (even if they were).

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 20:21

Originally posted by Style
fact is if there is 1000 pks there will be 5000 whiners but only 500 of them would quit if there wont be anything done about pking

...SO NOONE CARES ABOUT YOU WHINERS
thats the point

...but you will need to figure noone gives a shit about you

Actually, the part about only 5000 whiners and 500 people quitting because of the rampant bad behavior back then is not true. The numbers were enough to scare them [Origin]. On paper it all looked good, but in practice it was chaos, and people decided that they didn't want to pay a monthly fee to be a part of that chaos. To this day, as gimped as Trammel is, UO *still* has the stigma of being a PK fest. This is among the general population of MMORPG players, not the smaller group of people who have gone from game to game to game.

However to blindly make statements about what I want and to say things like “no one gives a shit about you” and “NOONE CARES ABOUT YOU WHINERS” is making assumptions in the worst way. I think that every paying player has a voice. I also think that it’s wrong for others to force their style of play on another. In Neocron, if you take your LE out you are accepting a specific style of play. Leave it in and you accept the other. After getting killed a few times I put mine back in. Did I come here and complain? No. Have I referred to these instances when people claim that random PK’s don’t happen very often? Yes. Have I been lambasted in-game and on the boards for playing with my LE in? Yup. Have people instantly assumed that I’m a “carebear” because I play with it in? Yup. I will openly tell you that I suck at PvP in Neocron, which is why I keep my LE in. That is a part of the games mechanics, and I haven’t complained one bit about it.

Now, have I made suggestions about creating a server with an All-LE rule set? Sure have. Why? Because there are loads of people who choose to take their LE out AND come here and complain about getting killed. For some reason, these people feel that they are being punished in some way for wearing their LE with the XP/skill gimps. Do I feel this way? Nope. But obviously by the length of this thread and the near-daily postings from players who are getting killed in this situation, there are several who do. Also, regarding this server, it would IN NOW WAY affect the existing servers. Zero. Zip. Nadda. It would only broaden the appeal of the game. How is that bad?

Basing the general feel of the player base of any game cannot be made at the forums. It’s been shown that at times less than 20% of the overall population doesn’t ever visit the forums. What you can count on is the number of players online daily, and in Neocron that is under 2,000. I’ve yet to log on and see more than 2,000 people logged on all together. Also, some reviews are painting Neocron is a not-so-kind light, and a few have actually referred to the old days of UO, which will scare the moderates away.

In the end, be careful what you ask for. The number of people willing to pay to play a game with so much rampant poor behavior is surprisingly low, and the majority of them are already here. Telling other players “it’s my way or the highway” instead of working to strike some balance somewhere in between do nothing towards building a community. Nor do the personal attacks that you directed at me.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 20:27

Originally posted by Archeus
Neocron is not UO. It's a player vs player combat based game.
If Neocron is a PvP game then Reakktor should start marketing it that way. Currently they market it as a cyberpunk version of a MMORPG, which is very different from a cyberpunk version of a PvP-MMO. Nowhere on the box, in the instructions, or at their site does it say that this game is all about PvP, and if you read the home page you will see that they even mention that you can “live a normal live” if you choose to do so. I’m not saying that I want to play this way, but I am saying that Joe Consumer might want to and he has no clue that this is PvP based on what they are marketing.

Style

15-01-03, 20:27

dont get me wrong dude
i am NOT against people who have their LE in they dont want it they accept the disadvantages and i am fine with that those people have their playstyle and i accept that i would never harass a LE player

but i am sick of a bunch of whiners who just take it out to get money and exp faster
those people suck in my opinion they dont want disadvantages but absolute safety and THATS carebear shit in my opinion
someone with LE in goes his way annoys noone and its fine

Barbarossa

15-01-03, 20:27

Hover,
You got told by the CEO of the company that your LE-only server idea wasn't going to happen. use IN GAME MEANS to combat this. I even said so myself, currently its not easy. Why not push for better in-game means to combat RPKs instead of wasting your energy on something that will never come back to pass. If half the people who whined and bitched about this spent their time asking for an in-game means to combat this (last location trackers,etc.) then we'd have it in 2-3 patches probably.

Archeus

15-01-03, 20:28

Originally posted by Nullifidian
In the suggestion I posted, people with exceptionally low SL would be hunted while in the wastelands by extremely high level NPC bounty hunters.

I didn't like bounty hunting in UO as it was used by the PK's as a scoring system to see who is the most l33t. Also most PK'ers just farmed the bounty.

What would be nice is if the citycom's listed players against a PK and the amount they are willing to put out as a reward to kill the person. Then when the PK is killed a counter is kept with the person who killed them and the number of times.

So I would check up on "Joe PK's" stat. I notice that "Funshine Bear" is offering 20k to whack him with a deadline of next sunday. I tag his request as accepted and go off and kill Joe PK 8 times.

"Nighttime Bear" upset that another carebear friend would be harmed adds 100k to Funshines bounty to entice the higher level players. More join in.

Funshine bear comes online and checks "Joe PK" stats. He notices "T4nK dUd3" killed Joe 30 times and I 8 times. However he knows from playing that Tankdude is a close friend of Joe so he pays out the 120k to me instead which removes him from the bounty list.

This turns the scoreboard away from the PK'er and to the bounty hunter.

Also if I am say 5th in the list and I get the bounty it mails the others above me so those who bounty hunt can see they didn't get the cash and lets them know if to take any more jobs from that person.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 20:37

Originally posted by Barbarossa
Hover,
You got told by the CEO of the company that your LE-only server idea wasn't going to happen.
Where did he say that it wasn't going to happen? That's not what I got from his reply at all. What I got from it was that he is taking this all in and will mull over many of these surrestions and ideas and do what is good for Reakktor to keep members and gain new members.

... and yes, I do use in-game means. I am not here complaining that I should not have to live with what the LE does because I choose to wear it. That is not my point AT ALL.

Please stop lumping me in with those who complain about the LE just because I think that all paying players have a voice. I'm just trying to give KK some ideas to help the situation, and hpefully the game too.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 20:39

Originally posted by Archeus

I didn't like bounty hunting in UO as it was used by the PK's as a scoring system to see who is the most l33t. Also most PK'ers just farmed the bounty.

What would be nice is if the citycom's listed players against a PK and the amount they are willing to put out as a reward to kill the person. Then when the PK is killed a counter is kept with the person who killed them and the number of times.

So I would check up on "Joe PK's" stat. I notice that "Funshine Bear" is offering 20k to whack him with a deadline of next sunday. I tag his request as accepted and go off and kill Joe PK 8 times.

"Nighttime Bear" upset that another carebear friend would be harmed adds 100k to Funshines bounty to entice the higher level players. More join in.

Funshine bear comes online and checks "Joe PK" stats. He notices "T4nK dUd3" killed Joe 30 times and I 8 times. However he knows from playing that Tankdude is a close friend of Joe so he pays out the 120k to me instead which removes him from the bounty list.

This turns the scoreboard away from the PK'er and to the bounty hunter.

PKs wouldn't be likely to farm any bounty hunters when those bounty hunters are carrying Liberators, Doom Beamers, Pain Easers, along with being anywhere from rank 90 to 120. Most players would get "pwned" in about 3 to 5 seconds by these hunters as soon as the hunters got in range. The point is to make the hunters hard enough to require several runners to kill them per bounty hunter. Also keep in mind this is not UO. Unlike UO, there are no players who are "invincible" like the tankmages in UO are. Also remember that defeating a bounty hunter would not yield some uber rare of leetness. Each bounty hunter would simply be as rewarding as killing something along the lines of a Warbot Titan or Hoverbomber only harder to kill since they would be doing all kinds of variable damage types. Most Pkers would simply be forced to run.

Archeus

15-01-03, 20:40

Originally posted by hoverboy911

Nowhere on the box, in the instructions, or at their site does it say that this game is all about PvP, and if you read the home page you will see that they even mention that you can “live a normal live” if you choose to do so.

Maybe I got a different box/manual but I knew it was PvP orientated when I bought it.

You can live a normal life with your LE in. If you remove your LE after levelling really high and staying to the safe zones you can lead a violence free life as well.

MMORPG doesn't mean "no combat".

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 20:42

Originally posted by Style
but i am sick of a bunch of whiners who just take it out to get money and exp faster
True dat... but the reality of it is that some people WILL take it our and they DO come here and complain. I have no clue why someone would do this, but to each his own.

btw - I get called names and poked fun at daily when running around, from "take out your LE sissy bitch" to "LOL! 12/39 with an LE in! carebear!!!". Those folks all earn an instant trip to the ignore list. Personally, I have to tell you that it was no easy task getting to ?/39 with that in, but I enjoyed every minute of it because I earned it. :)

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 20:43

Originally posted by Archeus

I didn't like bounty hunting in UO as it was used by the PK's as a scoring system to see who is the most l33t. Also most PK'ers just farmed the bounty.

What would be nice is if the citycom's listed players against a PK and the amount they are willing to put out as a reward to kill the person. Then when the PK is killed a counter is kept with the person who killed them and the number of times.

So I would check up on "Joe PK's" stat. I notice that "Funshine Bear" is offering 20k to whack him with a deadline of next sunday. I tag his request as accepted and go off and kill Joe PK 8 times.

"Nighttime Bear" upset that another carebear friend would be harmed adds 100k to Funshines bounty to entice the higher level players. More join in.

Funshine bear comes online and checks "Joe PK" stats. He notices "T4nK dUd3" killed Joe 30 times and I 8 times. However he knows from playing that Tankdude is a close friend of Joe so he pays out the 120k to me instead which removes him from the bounty list.

This turns the scoreboard away from the PK'er and to the bounty hunter.

Also if I am say 5th in the list and I get the bounty it mails the others above me so those who bounty hunt can see they didn't get the cash and lets them know if to take any more jobs from that person.

In theory that sounds nice, but in reality it would be rather exploitable. Many would post bounties and pay no one at all. Also, not everyone knows who a PKer's friends are.

Secondly, most newbs don't have any cash to spare, especially after having to buy new weapons after they got theirs stolen from PKers. Thus the only people who can afford it are higher level players who really don't need it as much.

Archeus

15-01-03, 20:44

Originally posted by Nullifidian

PKs wouldn't be likely to farm any bounty hunters

I didn't mean they would be farming the hunters. They would farm the bounty.

In UO a PK would whack a newbie, the newbie would accidently put thier whole bank balance into a bounty and the PK would later come along and have his friend PK him and hand in the head for the cash.

There should be mechanics to stop PK'ers from getting the bounties. That seemed the best solution.

I'm well aware the bounty hunters would be seriously tooled up. :)

As for getting a group to kill PK's and recieve a reward, then have an option to take a bounty on behalf of your clan. This automatically accepts everyone in your clan as a counter to a single total and when the bounty is won it goes into the clan bank account.

hoverboy911

15-01-03, 20:46

Originally posted by Archeus

Maybe I got a different box/manual but I knew it was PvP orientated when I bought it.
Did you play the beta, or know about it prior to it's release? Because in all honesty, Joe Consumer doesn't. He reads the box, makes a purchase and logs on.

I'm just wanting KK to take a stance on this. Is this mainly a PvP RPG like Planetside? If so then they should market it as such. I have *yet* to see anyone from KK comment on this, and I have asked many times.

Brew

15-01-03, 20:48

you could disable PvP trading with -SL

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 20:48

Originally posted by Archeus

I didn't mean they would be farming the hunters. They would farm the bounty.

In UO a PK would whack a newbie, the newbie would accidently put thier whole bank balance into a bounty and the PK would later come along and have his friend PK him and hand in the head for the cash.

There should be mechanics to stop PK'ers from getting the bounties. That seemed the best solution.

I'm well aware the bounty hunters would be seriously tooled up. :)

As for getting a group to kill PK's and recieve a reward, then have an option to take a bounty on behalf of your clan. This automatically accepts everyone in your clan as a counter to a single total and when the bounty is won it goes into the clan bank account.

There would be no way to farm the bounty since no bounty is to be had by any player. All bounty hunters would be NPCs, not PCs. Please reread the original post of the idea carefully, this is not a bounty/reward system. When someone has an extremely low SL, they would automatically have a chance every few minutes of having several NPC bounty hunters spawn near them while they are out in the wastelands. The idea behind this is it would act as a deterrent for random PKs who are not RPing, while at the same time add atmosphere and challenge to those who really are RPing. It would also mean clans would discourage members of their clan from having low SL since players with low SL would be incapable of helping in an OP battle without causing bounty hunters to eventually spawn during the fight.

Archeus

15-01-03, 20:50

Originally posted by Nullifidian

In theory that sounds nice, but in reality it would be rather exploitable. Many would post bounties and pay no one at all. Also, not everyone knows who a PKer's friends are.

Well then you have it that once you post a bounty it can only be released to a person that killed the person at least once and accepted the bounty. The person only gets it back if no one takes the job.

A newbie posting a low bounty could inspire higher level players to post a bounty on top of that to give an incentive.

Newbies don't have much? They can get a couple of 1000 creds to post a bounty and other newbies that got whacked on the same day can add to that bounty or post a new one.

Give the bounty hunters also a scoreboard. Score based on successful bounties won (not cash). This also allows you to see the more professional bounty hunters on the server if you wish to hire them for a special job.

Archeus

15-01-03, 20:53

Originally posted by Nullifidian

There would be no way to farm the bounty since no bounty is to be had by any player. All bounty hunters would be NPCs, not PCs. Please reread the original post of the idea carefully, this is not a bounty/reward system. When someone has an extremely low SL, they would automatically have a chance every few minutes of having several NPC bounty hunters spawn near them. The idea behind this is it would act as a deterrent for random PKs who are not RPing, while at the same time add atmosphere and challenge to those who really are RPing.

Which I think is a cop out. What your suggesting is basically what UO did which I didn't like as it was people looking for the game to save them. I would prefer a system that allows people to police the server and get reputation for doing it.

Gallet

15-01-03, 20:54

Newbies defend themselves v2.0:

Change armor/resistances to only absorb damage greater than 5% of the target's health.

Take a 500 hitpoint tank with 150 piercing resist.

He gets hit by a nailgun that does 10 points of damage. He takes 10 points of damage regardless of his piercing resist.

He gets hit by a nailgun doing 25, (5% of 500), points of damage, it would do 25 points of damage regardless of his piercing resist.

He gets hit by an assault rifle doing 100 points of damage, then that damage would be modified by his piercing resist.

The results would be:
#1, No affect on the current high-end Player vs. Player game! Since people always get killed in less than 20 trigger pulls already.
#2, Everyone would have a chance to defend themselves and contribute in battle from the day they started the game.

Edit: The actual % and RoF would have to be tweaked together to level the newbie field :)

Red Knight

15-01-03, 21:08

Again I have been skimming this thread.

I would just like put my .02 nc in. I think that having a system in place so that there is no penalty to have the LE in up to like level 25-30 would be a good idea. It seems like the lower level players are the ones who get hit the worst. I also like the fact that there is good PvP potential, but the RPGing is the number 1 thing about this game.

And for the record, I've been watching the forums for a few years and the aim of the game has always been stronge RPG with FPS elements, not a game based on PvP.

Martin,

If you are now saying this game is based on PvP and not as much RPG then you have soreley marketed your game from the very start. Your the big cheese so you know best, but if that is what your saying then it sure as hell did not come across that way to us.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 21:10

Originally posted by Archeus

Which I think is a cop out. What your suggesting is basically what UO did which I didn't like as it was people looking for the game to save them. I would prefer a system that allows people to police the server and get reputation for doing it.

The people randomly PKing are only penalized by this if they are randomly PK to grief. People randomly PKing because they want to RP a dangerous criminal would benefit from this because it would enhance that role; they would actually be pursued just like a criminal would be. So what is wrong with this system?

The problem with this, remember, is not PKing in and of itself, its that many do it with the sole purpose of griefing. No person, no matter what they say, will ever be able to convince me that griefing is a legitimate playstyle. It isn't. Period. The ideas I've tried to work out are suggested systems which would put in place systems that penalize griefers and in a way reward roleplayers.

Gallet

15-01-03, 21:15

Originally posted by Red Knight
And for the record, I've been watching the forums for a few years and the aim of the game has always been stronge RPG with FPS elements, not a game based on PvP.

I'm just wondering, what did you think factions w/ hostility towards eachother, Ops, and the nonfunctioning stock market were for? (Ok, ignore that last one)... heavy debating?

Brew

15-01-03, 21:16

I really dont think that limits on actions are the answer.
What we need is for people to be held accountable for their actions.
Currently, there are no means to do so.
Especially with things like copbots shooting the wrong people.
And lacking any means of tracking people who jump someone, kill him, then escape.
Even a "you were killed by" private message would be helpful.
But they already said they wouldn't do that.
go figure O_o

Archeus

15-01-03, 21:22

Originally posted by Nullifidian

The problem with this, remember, is not PKing in and of itself, its that many do it with the sole purpose of griefing. No person, no matter what they say, will ever be able to convince me that griefing is a legitimate playstyle.

Whoooa there. Random PK'ing is not grief playing. Lets just clear that right up.

In my opinion Grief players should be banned from the game.

People who PK large numbers of players should be dealt with the community within the game. Not expect for an NPC to spawn and attack them.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 21:26

The reason why player rewarding bounty systems won't work ever in Neocron is because there are ways to be killed in such a way that it is in no way any kind of penalty. The whole point of a bounty is you want someone to be punished and you are willing to pay for it. The problem is that killing a person in Neocron is not always a punishment. The only way a player-rewarding bounty system could ever be successful in Neocron is if it 1) guaranteed that no bounty could ever be collected without the target being punished, AND 2) guaranteed that the person responsible for punishing the target was rewarded AND 3) that the target in no way benefitted.

I just simply don't see a way to implement such a system.

Ryu No Gekido

15-01-03, 21:29

Originally posted by Archeus

Whoooa there. Random PK'ing is not grief playing. Lets just clear that right up.

In my opinion Grief players should be banned from the game.

People who PK large numbers of players should be dealt with the community within the game. Not expect for an NPC to spawn and attack them.

The problem I have is not the fact that somone may kill a large number of people, but why.

I am (will be was) leader of a clan who fought Pkers, when the story started to show that CA was a facist dictatorship, I wanted to fight that, however, the faction to do so, TG, are full of people who just simply kill large numbers of people, because they are there.

IMO, the Anarchy Breed Faction would have solved at least that part of that, but now, even if it were implemented, it wouldn't do the trick because those RPkers in TG have now gotten used to the "its RP to kill you" quote.

Nulls, sugestion would work well, because those RPkers would have a hard time just pking other people because they would have to deal with this, however, people wanting to be TG to fight Reeza (like me) would love to have to fight these guys, and because I wouldn't be killing everything Red that moves, I wouldn't have to deal with every many at a time, so I could easly kill them in an orginized fashion, because I am not griefing.

This would weed out the RPkers from TG and they could be the "freedom fighters against Reeza" they are supposed to be RP wise.

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 21:35

Red Knight

15-01-03, 21:36

Originally posted by Gallet

I'm just wondering, what did you think factions w/ hostility towards eachother, Ops, and the nonfunctioning stock market were for? (Ok, ignore that last one)... heavy debating?

What do you mean? I am saying the game has always aimed to be a good RPG game. Factions w/ hostility towards eachother, Ops all play into the RPG element, yes PvP too and that is good but the idea should be for RPG fodder not an excuse to run around killing anything that moves (PvP only). It sucks to run around and only kill NPC's so wars and the such are good I think.

greploco

15-01-03, 21:37

I posted this on brainport, but this thread may get more attention so I'm re posting here.

regarding genrep camping

-------------------------------------------------------------

just had an idea, how about this

when you spawn and if you don't move around a lot and you don't draw a wepon you invulnerable for a short period of time. Say, 30 to 60 seconds. Same thing with genrep. If you don't leave the zone around the genrep you can't be killed.

Not long enough to let your synaptic pain clean up. That would significantly alter the game. But long enough to genrep somewhere safe if someone is camping.

admittedly --- people will still camp, they will just do it more creativly. but this will make it a little harder on them.

other games have this sort of enhancement, why not this one? I would certainly cut down on genrep killing.

I'll admit that starkes has pissed me off -- but I'm slowly being won over. He and his group have added some spice to the game. And he doesn't win all the time these days. People are taking him down and getting screen shots. One day I will totally gank him and his crew and that will be a lot of fun.

but this genrep killing really is not fun. it just happend at tezla (by hate) to a friend of mine and I saw him go through a little range of emotions. It's upsetting and ruins the fun of the game. it's one thing to lose a fight but this is just so hopeless. all I could tell him was empty out your quickslots before you genrep in the future.

--------------------------------------------------------------

ok as for random PKing. no, please don't turn it into a carebears paradise. but there are things that you could do to make it a little more interesting and balanced. what I said above is about the best I've come up with. an idea that improves the game without totally altering the architecture.

and I meant what I said about people like this adding some spice. I don't like it all the time and I'd rather not run into them. but they do add some spice.

also ---- since they are optimized for PK and nothing else they have exposed some unbalances in the game, which is good for future development. Namely the need for speed capping, nerfing or altering the liberator, and perhaps some better aiming for the freezer cannon. if the freezer cannon aiming was like the burner it would become a usefull wepon, as it stands now it's no good.

also --- with the new epic runs this will correct a lot of things. You can't do faction missions to get these nifty items without faction sympathy. and you can't get faction sympathy if you are PKing within the city limits and picking on noobs. Banner fucking idea. It's going to improve the city and other bases a lot and at the same time the outzone will be just as exciting.

thanks for asking Martin.

Tetsu0

15-01-03, 21:58

I agree with Martin on this discussion, but it can only work if they turn "citicom tracking" back on so you can get a location on a person and exact revenge. The main problem is that if you move swiftly, no one is going to get you. This way the PK'ers would have a posse on their ass, chasing them down, and most of these problems would be solved. Sure there might be some harrasment, but that is something that GM's could personally handle in extreme cases. Overall, people are angry because there is no way to get revenge besides the occasional run-in, and that is just not enough satisfaction (IMO). This way griefing would stop, because griefers would get dealt with by the player, or his friends.

I don't know what would solve this "we are going to camp LvL4 and kill any who enter" problem. I just don't go down there...which makes me enjoy the game less, one piece at a time.

Bradleystoke

15-01-03, 22:06

Mods - sorry, but since Styles' attitude and behaviour is being positively endorsed, I'm offering myself as the sacrificial lamb in this instance. Again, apologies in advance.

You know, Style, I can't figure if your comments are just plain ol' trolling or that really, when it comes down to it, you really are completely off your fucking trolly and on another planet.

Time and time again, you've failed to grasp the most basic, fundamental, concepts-a-three-year-old could understand. And really, when it gets down to it. No one, positively NO ONE is that fucking retarded.

You're unwilling or unable to read into what people are saying here, instead still stuck in a mode of thought that polarises the issue for you - makes it nice and easy to deal with then, doesn't it: If you're not PK'er you don't understand and a whiner.

Where, for the most part, people here are trying to figure a compromise, you're still making statements and supposed posts as an authority who speaks for PK'ers as a whole.

Sorry to burst your bubble sunshine but you're a majority of one. Your mate Starkes got himself banned from the web forum for being an uncouth fuckwit, one who was unwilling to play nicely with other people... see the pattern here? Then again, perhaps I'm being a tad too generous in my assumption of you being able to step out of your mind bogglingly blindingly self absorbed mindset. Perish the thought, eh?

You've failed to articulate yourself beyond the 'you're a whiner' type of post we expect from pre-pubescent teenagers who've yet to grasp the nuances of what real life is all about.

Starting a sentence with 'fact is' doesn't give it any merit, validation or worthiness when it is, yet again devoid of anything other than your insane ramblings on why you and you alone see the world through this bizarre lens which shows you as being centre of the universe, with everything else revolving around you.

Another utterly foundless assertion of yours 'the majority of players either doesnt care about pks or they handle that ingame is so embarrassingly wrong, it's hard to imagine you are actually reading these forums without the handicap of selective memory impairment.

Did you fail to notice the number of pages in this thread alone, for the love of God!? Are you that blind and stupid that you've failed to grasp what is being said here, both on the board as well as getting an overall feel for what is the current problem?

It does seem to be the case and I'll wager here that you're unable to articulate your views or agree on compromise or even acknolwedge that yes, you are taking advantage of wanked game mechanics to pursue some purile adolescent idea that "I'm 'ard, me" cos you go around indiscriminate killing because quite simply, you can without any fear of repercussion.

Another retort you aim at others opposing not your PKing per se but at your mind bogglingly inarticulate replies, is that of using capitals, repeating bog standard phrases such as 'no one cares', and so on and so forth. You get the idea here - every time you respond to a post, you've added nothing from the previous one you made. Ever single one revolves around your denial and acceptance that your behaviour and general demeanour, both in game and out, to use a familiar phrase, 'sux donkeys'.

Take for instance, this little gem of yours:

you dont care what pks want
thats ok pks can handle that
but you will need to figure noone gives a shit about you

In fact, I'm considering adding this one to my sig because it wins hands down in the fuckwit-without-a-clue leagues.

You have no idea how much this says about you. Once upon a time we had hand writing experts, now we can add typing to that field of psychology and analysis.

Boy, you is der kraziee as der cucumber!

I told you once before in another thread, and I'll say it again, so you can perhaps digest it this time.

Make the most of your situation because it is untenable, antisocial and jeunvenile.

Eventually, this situation will change and someone, somehow is going to come along, be it Reakktor or other players, and they are going to fuck you up.

You can translate that any way you like, but the bottom line is, the style of play you have been used to, abused and seen, for want of a better phrase, KK endorse your behaviour, will change.

It's not a question of IF, it's a question of WHEN.

Do not confuse kindness with weakness

Word of the day:

pertinacious adj determined in one's purpose; dogged; tenacious. pertinaciously adverb. pertinaciousness or pertinacity noun.
ETYMOLOGY: 17c: from Latin pertinax holding fast.

Mods - sorry, but since you guys endorse Styles' behaviour and attitudes, we have to respond like with like until the status quo is breached.

I'll accept any ruling you have with good grace. :(

Archeus

15-01-03, 22:14

Originally posted by Nullifidian

Ideally, you have a point, but in reality the current game mechanics prevent it players from effectively policing their own.

Which is why I made a suggestion. I'm not writing this because I think it's hidden in the game somewhere.

1) guaranteed that no bounty could ever be collected without the target being punished, AND 2) guaranteed that the person responsible for punishing the target was rewarded AND 3) that the target in no way benefitted.

I just simply don't see a way to implement such a system.

I just explained one. You did read it right?

Archeus

15-01-03, 22:22

Originally posted by Bradleystoke
You're unwilling or unable to read into what people are saying here, instead still stuck in a mode of thought that polarises the issue for you - makes it nice and easy to deal with then, doesn't it: If you're not PK'er you don't understand and a whiner.

You can't blame just that end of the scale. There are people in the thread who are the complete reverse, ie if your a PK'er you must be a grief player.

The simple fact is there is already a system to stop yourself being PK'ed in the game. It's called an LE. But some players want to have the benifits and no killing. While I can agree with that for low level players I don't see why high level players should get this benifit. If a person wants to leave an LE in at a high level then they should submit to penalties for doing so.

I don't want random PK'ing to stop (except on newbies). But I do want a way to flag these people in game so that others can go after them, and those that do and succeed are flagged so others know. Also so that trades people know who they are.

Quede

15-01-03, 22:34

Originally posted by Bradleystoke
Mods - sorry, but since Styles' attitude and behaviour is being positively endorsed, I'm offering myself as the sacrificial lamb in this instance. Again, apologies in advance.

Wow that rant reminded me alot of Dennis Miller.

I believe Mr. Styles is confusing this thread with an Anti-PK
thread, It ISN'T. It's how to make it more interesting, amusing
and perhaps fair. At least that is the way I am reding most posts.

Neptune may be the answer, then you won't have childish
griefer type PK'rs waiting in safe zones to follow newbies
into the cellars/sewers etc.

It would also cut back on the insane amount of enemies that
currently flock to the safe zones in a enemy city (i.e Plaza 1 etc)

ZigZag

15-01-03, 22:43

So many assumptions are made in this thread and in the game.

Really amazing, the things thought of to punish the evil TG. Ever thought how that would seem on a completely fresh server?

OK try a bounty system - my feeling it will be abused/exploited somehow.

No way to deal with RPK ingame? then howcome we did it in Beta? That was what we did - it was our high end content. It was fun No insults - no bitterness as in Retail. Yes we used the citycom but in the city it is still doable if you wanted to it would merely take more time and teamwork. Seems player are not interested for whatever reason.

I am TG on Pluto and it looks like the only one able or bothered to reply to this. On Pluto the number of active TG factioned players is pathetic. Maybe 20 - 30 in all at one time, our base is the most unsafe place for us on the server - our guards have been so nerfed they're only good for swatting flies - and still you complain of overwhelming odds and demand copbots to guard you. You say our guards kill you - how is this possible? I know many enemy runners who go there without fear of our guards - sure they shoot but they do hardly any damage.

Of course most of you will now assume I am an exploiter, a RPK, a CS aimbot kiddie, a lame teenager with abuse issues, pimples, a need to prove how l337 I am etc etc. On pluto we all live with the aftermath of EON and as with all these kinds of issues the truth is the first casualty.

Here are some assumptions from this thread about the game:

1. Soullight is broken or being exploited.
People dont seem to realise that if you kill only faction enemies you are NEVER going to lose soullight. They complain that TG people kill EVERYONE then walk around with negative soullight and the copbots do nothing . These are the sort of "facts" as put across of what is happening in the game, facts that simply are not true if you understand the faction system. The only time I have had negative soullight was because 1) a faction ally dying by accident after getting hit by my bullets and 2) after killing a faction ally Pker who killed a noob friend. If you only kill faction enemies you dont lose soullight. It is the same for everyone. The reason copbots dont KOS me is I never have under -16 soullight because I kill only specific enemy factions. There is no exploit to this.

2. FPS players are ruining the game.
I am a FPS player almost purely and can say that if you are a serious FPS player you eventually play to a unwritten code: ie: 1) there is nothing to be gained by killing a noob it proves nothing. 2) you play for your team - the team comes first (ie. you protect your noobs and if your base is getting attacked you defend it). 3) If you go around killing your own team you are kicked from the game. 4) spawn raping (ie generep camping) will get you a kick if overdone and 5) cheating is NEVER acceptable.
In every type of game you get lamers -it is not one age group or gametype player who is a "griefer".
Dying is something a FPS player is used to, its not something to get angry and personal about- let alone insult other players. The only time I've ecountered people who kill to intentionally cause "grief" is in roleplaying games. It is a different mindset. It becomes so personal for some to die, to me it is amazing. This is not real life it is a game. (after all, as has been said, death in NC means nothing)

3. Player killing is "bad".
Obviously a FPS player cannot relate to this (in a half hour game you can kill and die 50+ times). But to a roleplayer this is inbred -even in the mind of the random Pks - they take pleasure in seeing themselves as "baddies". So even in a game like this where PvP is meant to happen there will always be those who cannot accept it and therefore need to change the game to make it safer. To stop these "bad" things happening they ask for safezones, more copbots, and copbots who now try to stop PvP in PP1 etc (things which actually make no sense from a roleplaying POV).

Getting rid of the PvP/FPS players is a solution often given on these boards - "go play quake you mindless morons". However that excludes a HUGE number of players who are actually not mindless at all and only KK has a right to exclude customers from their game. If marketed to the FPS players maybe their problems would be solved.

4. Insurance should cost nothing.
Ironic how some of these "mature adults" who should be aware of real world concepts such as insurance demand the LE chip to be free of consequences or cost. You are in effect demanding to play a PvP orientated game in total safety without fear of dropping anything and then when you have leveled sufficiently and your char is maxed (and you have tweaked him nicely with loms) THEN you will PvP AND it still must cost you nothing.

5. TG doesnt roleplay only exploit.
I live in a country where I have talked to "freedom fighters" - I know the stuff to say, how they think. The trouble is that the answer from NC citizens is often "well Im quite happy - my life is sweet - why would I join you - why do I need you to fight for my freedom you baby killer"? As for safezones- Ive been reading these boards for years - I dont want safezones - BUT they there at the request of those who wanted protection from the evil Pks. I want no copbots in PP or to be like they used to be in Beta - BUT again they are there to make it safer. Everything you ask for you get and then eventually complain about it until this game resembles some idiots random thoughts.

So I propose this:

1. Keep the LE for those who "abhor" player killing and object to it in all forms instead of an all LE only server. There has to be some form of "cost" tho' for complete safety from other players BECAUSE of the eventual PvP aspect of the game. It is a good idea- no penalty for noobs and for those that really dont want to PvP, after a certain level, it becomes permanent (with some form of "cost"). Allow LE only players to make " friend clans" something between a clan and a permanent team that cannot be involved in OP wars etc. Its just a simple fact that you have to make the choice to play this game as a PvP game or not.

2. Noobs are automatically put in a noob faction that has no enemies (allied with all factions) and therefore if they are killed the noob Pk WILL lose soullight and if he goes on a rampage (ie more than 3 or 4 at one time) the auto gain in soullight will not be enough to save him from the copbots. Perhaps after a certain deeply negative level it takes a really long time to auto gain ( realtime days) and for that period he is able to be tracked on citycom. Then also the true fragfest types who kill everyone for no reason have some long term consequences to deal with. The noobs still are given the option of their start location (if they plan to join a certain faction later) and once they have had a chance to learn the game (ie after a certain rank)then they must officially choose a faction. It means that you can still kill the one or two noobs who really ask for it, (not all noobs are sweetness and sunshine), and as soon as a noob kills another player they are automatically assigned to TG (because they are evil Pk and TG needs ppl anyway) to prevent them exploiting this.

3.The faction system needs to mean more as well - I think that if you had GM's sometimes actually playing the role of a leader of the faction you could add guidance and purpose to the faction. Use this to develop the story and when they are not there hopefully players will continue it.

4. As TG we have nothing to offer to sway the brainwashed city people to our cause. Have something fit the story where Neocron city is not all a bed of roses and prosperity. Remove the safe zones first then introduce some not so nice things eg: one day a blanket random tax on all citizens just because Lioon feels like it, another time a copbot short circuits and kills everyone -innocent and guilty. The situation now is that Lioon is all knowing, all powerfull and all good. How does that fit the storyline ?

sorry for such a long post but you asked for a reasoned reply with proposed solutions.

Kobra007

15-01-03, 22:55

I've said it 100 times, and i'll keep saying it.. Everquest type games have ruined an entire generation of gamers.. Everquest made peopel AFRAID of dying, and as a consequence, people carry this mentality to every new game they play, including Neocron. Its old people, forget about EQ, and move on, and stop crying over dying, we all die.

The fact is, if dying to a player killer ruins your day, then you need a new type of game. Chances are, Sims Online would be better suited. Why do people with fragile personalities always congregate into MMORPGs? I don't understand it. Why do people think that someone killing them in a game, is a direct assault on them in real life? Its mind boggling to think about how some people are..

Now, i've had 9-10 friends already quit Neocron, half of them said they quit because they died to griefers. Wanna know the truth? They are lying, and I got most them to admit it. The reasons they quit were usually things like the high learning curve - IE they came from EQ or DAOC, and couldn't handle a game where you don't know the ropes the first hour. The rest quit because of various reasons from lack of time to play, or disliking futurepunk type stuff. Oh yea, and most of these dudes that quit never got to a decent level, so in my opinion, they have no room to comment, one way or another.

The truth is, they should have never bought the game! They knew what it was, they knew the context of the theme, and they knew it was PvP based - I warned them. Yet they still bought it, and subjected themselves to a game they KNEW they shouldn't have gotten. Then, to make matters worse, they quit for those other reasons, yet they come to the forums and cry about pkers on their way out of the game, because they know the word "Griefing Pker" gets ALOT of attention nowadays, much like the word "Terrorism".

The fact is, if you get griefed in Neocron, its because you don't have a good concept of gaming in a PvP type game. You can't learn PvP overnight (and how to protect yourself from Pkers), and you can't train your habits and skills around PvP in a night. This takes skill, knowledge, and common sense, this ain't pokemon here folks, so get off it. If you are coming from EQ/AC or DAOC, then you might as well plan on the fact that *You don't know SHIT about gaming*.

I leveled up in this game under EXTREME duress. My old clan was at war with 5 other clans. Yet I leveled quickly, to a level where I could fight back. Yes, I had to hunt carefully, I had to make the most of my mission trips, and I had to be quick about it, and very wary of my surroundings, I even had to get clanmates to guard me. But IT WAS EXCITING.. Heck, I even hunted at off hours, to avoid most of the people that were after us! Did I die? TWICE.. Thats it.. 2 times to pkers..

If you want a game where you can go down and hunt, then loiter around, talking to people, not paying attention, going AFK to take a shit, not a care in the world, *THEN THIS IS NOT YOUR GAME*... Don't even THINK about trying to change it into Cyber-Quest..

If you like a little fun in your gaming, a little risk vs reward in your enjoyment, and some excitement here and there, then this is your game.

Some of the best games ever released, allow the PLAYERS to control the politics and the flow of the server, and the control of the pkers. Meridian59 is case in point. When it came out, pking was everywhere, life was very hard, but very rewarding. As more people leveled up, the pker-hunters began to outnumber the pkers. Over time, the pking was pretty light, as the players had SELF-REGULATED the server, and controlled the situation. If you think its so bad, get off your ass, form a squad of badass hunters, and go have some fun.

Wanna know one of the safest places in Neocron on Pluto? Military Base.. There are no safe zones in military base, and as a result, its probably the safest place to be. Why? Because "The Gang and CSM" control Military Base - you kill one of MY people in Military Base, and I promise, within 2 minutes, you'll have hardcore badasses storming you.. Pkers are dealt with instantly, and rather harshly upon entering our domain. They have nowhere to hide, and if they come in, they will be leaving in a body bag. They won't be hiding inside some city zone where weapons can't be drawn.

There needs to be no changes in Neocron in regards to PvP or Pking. Let the players regulate, let the clans enforce, and let the gamers decide their own fate. The carebear crybabies can go play DAOC and feel all safe and secure in their homelands.

By the way, you people that INSIST on forming 2-5 person clans need to just stop, and stop it now. These tiny clans are doing nothing but ruining the game. You want action? You want protection? You want the best time of your life? Then join a larger, active clan, that uses voice communication, takes care of their people, and has a good goddamn time everynight. Hell, I had a friend start another rediculous 4 person clan a couple weeks ago. I begged him not to, and his reply was "We are going to own outzone, and claim it as our domain.". Yea right.. 2 weeks later and the clan still has the same 4 people in it, doing nothing but standing around in plaza-1 bored.

Thats it from my rant..

Nullifidian

15-01-03, 22:56

Originally posted by Archeus

Which is why I made a suggestion. I'm not writing this because I think it's hidden in the game somewhere.

I just explained one. You did read it right?

I like the idea you posted in theory, but it violates all three of those rules. The person handing out the bounty has no guarantee the PKer suffered at all or was in any way punished; they only know he died (something which we all know has hugely varies in levels of annoyance, and in some cases can actually benefit). The person dealing out the punishment has no guarantee he will get paid. And last of all, there is no way to know whether or not the target benefitted. It comes close, it's fuzzy on all three, but there is no guarantee. A successful bounty system needs to absolutely, beyond any doubts, guarantee all three of those points. I do like the basic idea, but it needs tweaking. Also, other aspects of the game need to change for this to be possible to implement and be successful along those 3 guidelines.

Here's a suggested change to my NPC bounty hunter concept to reduce the harshness though. 2 changes. First change is that levels of the bounty hunters should vary tremendously, even to the point that the PKer may sometimes encounter NPC bounty hunters as low as rank 20 or 30. However, no money would be ever given as a reward for killing a bounty hunter NPC. Also, the only hunters with any loot would be the extremely high level ones; ones over rank 90. Basically, the lower level bounty hunters which do not pose as much of a threat would provide a richer sense of the "criminal lifestyle" while not actually benefitting the PKer. Due to the fact that these weaker bounty hunters are more easily dispatched or at least evaded, they would not pose too harsh a penalty. The ones which actually WOULD be extremely difficult to dispatch and/or escape would simultaneously offer a chance for good reward if defeated. These higher level bounty hunter NPCs would be much rarer and would be reserved for the most severe criminals.

Hopefully, if tweaked right, this system would provide at the very least an annoyance factor for the non-RP PKers so that it would discourage them, while at the same time making for a more immersive atmosphere for ones who truly are RPing a criminal.

Archeus

15-01-03, 23:12

The person handing out the bounty has no guarantee the PKer suffered at all or was in any way punished; they only know he died (something which we all know has hugely varies in levels of annoyance, and in some cases can actually benefit).

Not sure about the benifit, but you are correct. Hence the reason the person can give the bounty to anyone who took the job and made at least one kill.

Reputation. If I see a player who has 20+ bounty confirmed contracts and other players tell me they are respectable (do ask around) then they should get the bounty over another person who say has 50 kills on the player no confirmed contracts and/or is a friend of the PK'er (again you can ask around).

The person dealing out the punishment has no guarantee he will get paid.

At least one will get paid, but that's the price for bounty hunting. People won't be bounty hunting because it's easy, but because they enjoy it. The cash reward and bounty score is a bonus.

If you make 10 kills on a contract and the contract is rewarded to someone who made three kills you get mailed saying you didn't win the contract and then you can either email the person to ask why (could be they have a better contract rating or killed them in an amusing way in front of the victim), or don't accept any contracts from them again (and let them go play with the PK'er). It is also to stop PK'ers farming the reward by getting thier friends to kill them over and over.

And last of all, there is no way to know whether or not the target benefitted.

The target may benifit but the ability to reward the contract to another person stops them from doing this easily or getting away with it for long. Also even if only one player in the contract list is in it to benifit the PK'er there will be a number of players taking the contract with the intent of taking the person down.

I don't like the NPC system simply because it's NPC's. It should be left up to the players to sort them out. To say players won't do this is a fallacy as (on pluto) a number of players/clans already police the server to some extent.

NPC's should stick to selling overpriced shoddy goods in shops.

Arcadius

15-01-03, 23:18

What about if X hires Y to kill Z, and Z let's Y kill him in excahnge for half the payment that X will give to Y?

What would preven t that?

Archeus

15-01-03, 23:25

Originally posted by Arcadius
What about if X hires Y to kill Z, and Z let's Y kill him in excahnge for half the payment that X will give to Y?

What would preven t that?

Well X wouldn't hire Y. X would say here $1000nc to whack Z. Y and W both whack Z and it's up to X to who they reward the cash to.

Now it doesn't stop Y from handing over the cash to Z, but the game is about people. So ask around, is Y a good person? Do they have a high bounty rating? Have they ever run with Z? People with higher number of kills are emailed so it's up to the players to sort out what's fair or not.

Possibly another thing to do is have people with negative faction rating that denotes them as a PK'er and Clan members of the PK'er being refused from accepting the contract.

It's not going to stop farming but reputations stick around so it would only be a matter of time before such a scam was found out and then Y would get a bounty on them.

Foyle

15-01-03, 23:35

I think we need an answer to the $64,000 question from the man himself here:

Is Neocron

a.) A roleplaying game with PvP elements?

or

b.) A PvP game with roleplaying elements?

If it's 'a' then there are issues that need looking at (see all the above!).

If it's 'b' then there really isn't much of a problem, although the game packaging needs some work - the multiple references to MMORPG need removing!

sl33py

15-01-03, 23:38

i know this post is humping a bit behind the facts

as to me giving up on neocron, well , i haven't, spookie was a bit misinformed about that.

I just went on a 2 week holiday to my girlfriend in Sweden whom i love veryveryvery VERY muchos.

When I came back monday my HD crashed O_o just my luck i guess

Anyways, I just wanted to say , you ain't gotten rid of me yet :D

Red Knight

15-01-03, 23:59

Originally posted by Foyle
I think we need an answer to the $64,000 question from the man himself here:

Is Neocron

a.) A roleplaying game with PvP elements?

or

b.) A PvP game with roleplaying elements?

If it's 'a' then there are issues that need looking at (see all the above!).

If it's 'b' then there really isn't much of a problem, although the game packaging needs some work - the multiple references to MMORPG need removing!

Yes, could Martin spread some light on the subject?

Edit: sl33py, good to see your back.

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 00:00

Originally posted by Archeus
[B]

You can't blame just that end of the scale. There are people in the thread who are the complete reverse, ie if your a PK'er you must be a grief player.

Let's not lose sight of the fact that I was responding to Style's bizarre outlook and not generalising on the issue of PKing, though I know what you're getting at, Archeus. Point taken.

I don't want random PK'ing to stop (except on newbies). But I do want a way to flag these people in game so that others can go after them, and those that do and succeed are flagged so others know. Also so that trades people know who they are.

Yup, and that's largely what people who are posting here are trying to articulate: PKing isn't necessarily a bad thing, but let's have cause and effect, repercussions and game mechanics in place to balance out this style of play.

If someone wants to pursue this mode of play, let them be aware that there are repercussions awaiting them and they do not have open house to pursue antisocial, idiotic play styles.

Good points though, Archeus

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 00:02

Originally posted by jernau
[B]

I am deeply disappointed to say I agree fully with Bradleystoke on this one.

Erm... I'm not quite sure how to take that! :)

hoverboy911

16-01-03, 00:05

Originally posted by Foyle
I think we need an answer to the $64,000 question from the man himself here:

...If it's 'b' then there really isn't much of a problem, although the game packaging needs some work - the multiple references to MMORPG need removing!
First off, thank you for asking this too!!!! hehe... I *just* talked to a guy who took it back this morning. He heard me raving about it, picked it up, played for a bit, had someone talk him into taking out his LE, and was gakned five times in a lvl 1 dungeon! hehehe... I tried to explain to him that if he does'nt want to get killed then he'd better get tough quick or put his LE in. His answer:

"F that. I thought this was going to be a gritty AO like game. It reminds me of the early days of UO. F that noise."

This was like 5 min ago... heh

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 00:11

Originally posted by Quede
[B]

Wow that rant reminded me alot of Dennis Miller.

Really? What server is he on? ;)

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 00:19

Originally posted by Archeus

...So ask around, is Y a good person? Do they have a high bounty rating? Have they ever run with Z? People with higher number of kills are emailed so it's up to the players to sort out what's fair or not.

Preferable option is to link this into things like soul light and faction sympathy. In addtion, we're looking at introducing another element here - that of trustworthiness which has to transgress the boundaries of player control and move into the realm of game control, otherwise abuse is the order of the day.

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 00:48

By no means inclusive or whatever, just some things I've noticed so far.

Accountability & ramifications for ones behaviours & actions

People generally want to see that behaviour, good or bad is either punished or rewarded based on certain criteria - none exists for the positive side of this issue.

Redifine Cop & STORM bot roles

TG running around Plaza does not constitute nor reflect the Neocron game world. Besides, it really pisses people off as well.

Soul Light & Faction Sympathies

Completely buggered, shagged, wanked and utterly useless. Did I miss anything?

Bounties

An idea which appears to be garnering support, though debate questions the validity of whether this should be 'open house' or handled by the game itself.

Possible alternative is to have players assigned to PK assasination missions as part of the mission term selection, once reaching a high faction level.

Lots of potential for discussion and chewing out, but definitely 'one to watch', pop pickers :D

Additional player info displays

So you're a PK'er, good for you. Now lets' see that displayed to the world, so everyone can see. Want to have something constructed/implanted or researched in Plaza now? Think again - you're a social leper and rightly so!

Negative Soul Light ramifications - No NPC traders deal with you

You'll have to deal with street hawkers for selling, otherwise find another player daft enough who'll deal with you.

Game Mechanics positively encourage PKing in an antisocial role

Wtf were KK thinking here? This is the reality, is it not? Time for a rebalance here.

StockX

Linked to PKing, this is a positive motivational force to change the current situation along with the other issues mentioned here.

TG V CA/NCPD security, etc

Speaks volumes, doesn't it. One side bitch slaps you for being in the wrong place, while the other will ignore you... Game balance issue, anyone?

Level caps for 'positive' PKing

This really addresses the idea that everything else has been sorted and that yes, PKing exists in a more.... 'stable' game.

Yes, you can PK another hostile faction (or whatever, given Epic runs etc), but working below your own abilities incurs penalties for misappropriation of resources and so on.

Read to mean - killing newbies, etc, is pointless because it does nothing to improve your faction or your own point levelling, fuckwit :D j/k

Anyway, you get my drift, even with my stupid comments. I'm good at those if nothing else... arf.

DrKronic

16-01-03, 01:12

dude good lord you have done hogged the forum, 3 replies all to yourself :D, nice one

anyhow I still repeat any steps we take need to be baby steps, you everquest this game and it loses it's magic, would have more ideas but saw some of the "roundup" of that guy, and if all that went through, I definitely wouldn't be playing this

this is coming from someone who fights all the "greefars"

NEED I SAY MY BABY STEP AGAIN

MAKE "PERSONAL" FACTION SYMPATHY IMPORTANT, our current faction system is still buggered, and I don't know if our devs even know about it, it needs to be worked up to form, not changed for some other bad system

believe me, I've seen other games, the newer friendlier systems all get exploited in one way or another, and all these changes you lose more and more of your playerbase

anyone remember the end of beta 4, we lost alot of "future" players with all the kneejerk testing(alot of which was never implemented, but all the same we were never told it wasn't going to be until after)

UBER EDIT: this antisocial pk thing needs to be handled in a more similar way, make someones soul light actually matter in their OUTZONE bases,

I mean why would TG or FA(megamans hideout) want to be associated with random murder..................sure if their boys stick to regular combat, they'd be fine with that, but if they are just killing everything left and right, there should be some consequences

as we have it, outzone factions are actually easier than say playing the black dragons, just based alone on the current non-working faction system

they wouldn't, you'd think they'd look after themselves in that respect

unfortunetly I see the whining has reached full blown hysteria, so I'm not looking forward to the loss of content in place of getting in "safety" measures

sl33py

16-01-03, 01:18

Originally posted by DrKronic

anyone remember the end of beta 4, we lost alot of "future" players with all the kneejerk testing(alot of which was never implemented, but all the same we were never told it wasn't going to be until after)

Strange, I knew

DrKronic

16-01-03, 01:20

you have 2402 posts and started WAY before beta 4, not so strange methinks

you're the average neocron customer righttttt! :D

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 01:24

I got thinking about the issue of redressing the balance when it comes to PKing in all its various flavours.

Retribution, in various flavours then, if you will...

Wanted

A general alert made available on forums etc, to alert the population of who to be aware of.

This empowers players so they can decide who to deal with, if say they are constructors, rezzers and so on.

Encourages RP and faction loyalty, etc.

Allocation - Cityterm, notification only. Combined with additional Runner info (above runners head)

Licence To Kill

This is basically a merit award for players of a high faction sympathy.

Let's assume the game begins to keep track of PK'ers and their tally against factions. Now factions can allocate LOK's against PK'ers and certain benefits to pursue this type of mission as a reward for their level & behaviour.

Let's not confuse this benefit, however.

The difference between a criminal/PKer is one between knowing the difference between knowing right and wrong, the law and what transgresses it.

To gain a LOK, players need to show humility, selflessness and a willingness to help other faction runners. Tough call? Sure, but then again, the rules our RL law enforcement agencies for the large part enbody are those behaviours which place them above the general populace.

Okay, if you want to use another analogy, check out Jedis... sigh. :)

Anyway, you get the gist of this - you have to prove yourself beyond reproach that you are worthy of this role due to the power and responsibility it carries.

Allocation - cityterm, faction missions

Bounty

This is given against totally antisocial runners - and yes, there will be no shortage of teenage angst merchants who cannot resist to jump at assuming this role, let's face it.

This is open season on these runners, with a combined retaliatory force comprising of runners, faction guards, Cop & STORMbots and everyone's granny given half the chance.

Allocation - Cityterm, Wanted forum, free for all.

Pukker up kiddies, it's showtime! :D

I'm sure there are flaws with this, but it's the best I can do while I have the flu and two bottles of wine inside me.... arf

Call me mogdetonate and slap my thighs :eek:

DrKronic

16-01-03, 01:37

Originally posted by Bradleystoke
I
Retribution, in various flavours then, if you will...

Wanted

Encourages RP and faction loyalty, etc.

internally tracking someones kills(namely ones where big rank differences occur) would go a long way towards the kind of actual measures we need to stop the so called "31337 d00dZ",

Licence To Kill

This is basically a merit award for players of a high faction sympathy.(and high soul light perhaps)

Let's assume the game begins to keep track of PK'ers and their tally against factions. Now factions can allocate LOK's against PK'ers and certain benefits to pursue this type of mission as a reward for their level & behaviour.
^
THIS would be nice

Bounty

This is given against totally antisocial runners - and yes, there will be no shortage of teenage angst merchants who cannot resist to jump at assuming this role, let's face it.

MAKE BOUNTY TAKE MONEY FROM PRIVATE ACCOUNT(theres a start)

these aren't bad ideas, but remove all your clutter when you do this

other things that come to mind

tracking of kills, internally not externally, if this can be done, maybe the high rank difference kills can start to be effectively measured, maybe even someone with a large amount of these kind of kills can be "penalized"

remember there is only one punishment in neocron

(where did I put that STORM bot team)

also I say again personal faction sympathy

REMEMEMBER KK, do that baby step thing with this, and work on adding a NCPD grenade launcher or something first

I'm getting drowned out by this guy talking about his dog or something :(

bigger SL penalties for routine killing of same target, this is one thing that totally pisses off new players, not me, I could care less(ok I have been pissed off by this before), but being repeatedly killed after you've lost all ability to fight your enemy is humiliating and unfair(well warzones are warzones, and that shouldn't be changed)

if the game could track big rank differences as well................

but what am I saying, these are impossible ideas

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 02:24

Originally posted by DrKronic

[quote]
these aren't bad ideas, but remove all your clutter when you do this

I like clutter. Besides, I'm recovering from flu so I get a 'get out of PPI hospital card' as well to cover my arse. :D

Anyway, what bloody clutter!?

tracking of kills, internally not externally, if this can be done, maybe the high rank difference kills can start to be effectively measured, maybe even someone with a large amount of these kind of kills can be "penalized"

I think I know where you're coming from here... and if I'm right in my assumptions I'll agree with you = internal tracking is the way forward. These sorts of issues should never be player controlled and left to the game mechanics, rightly or wrongly, for impartial judgement.

I'm getting drowned out by this guy talking about his dog or something :(

But I don't own a dog!? o_O

bigger SL penalties for routine killing of same target, this is one thing that totally pisses off new players, not me, I could care less(ok I have been pissed off by this before), but being repeatedly killed after you've lost all ability to fight your enemy is humiliating and unfair(well warzones are warzones, and that shouldn't be changed)

Why just same target? Surely this limits the effectiveness of this possibility?

I mean, the most griefing which appears to take place is within Neocron city itself, surely?

if the game could track big rank differences as well................

Go on, I'm all ears.

but what am I saying, these are impossible ideas

Ah, you were doing really well until then. What was it about believing in 3 impossible things before breakfast? ;)

Don't go for second best, baby... express yourself :D

Zebuleon

16-01-03, 03:12

Martin,

You started this thread perhaps its time you finished it.

Is Neocron a PvP game with Roleplaying elements.

or

Is Neocron a Roleplaying game with PvP elements.

This is the question, asked by many people, that everyone wants a solid answer on. You have played the politics of avoidance long enough.

What is Neocron

jernau

16-01-03, 03:19

Originally posted by Bradleystoke

Erm... I'm not quite sure how to take that! :)

:lol:
I think you know what I meant.

Gallet

16-01-03, 03:49

Originally posted by Zebuleon
Martin,

You started this thread perhaps its time you finished it.

Is Neocron a PvP game with Roleplaying elements.

or

Is Neocron a Roleplaying game with PvP elements.

This is the question, asked by many people, that everyone wants a solid answer on. You have played the politics of avoidance long enough.

What is Neocron

MMORPG

FPS

PvP

Only one of these is optional, so I guess it depends on who you ask. That is the dumbest question I have heard on these forums. Trying to simplify such an issue with a rhetorical question like that is a complete waste of time.

hoverboy911

16-01-03, 04:04

Originally posted by Gallet

MMORPG

FPS

PvP

Only one of these is optional, so I guess it depends on who you ask. That is the dumbest question I have heard on these forums. Trying to simplify such an issue with a rhetorical question like that is a complete waste of time.
It’s not that there’s just one option, it’s that it would be nice to know where KK plans to go with this. An answer from them would help clear up the confusion of what they're marketing vs. what you find here and in the game[somewhat]. Are they going to take the PvP-RPG route like Planetside, where the main focus of the game is PvP battles, or are they going to take the “traditional” MMORPG route that places you in a genre and lets the player make of the game what they will? I have asked this question too, because nowhere except these forums have I heard that this game is PvP-RPG [like Planetside]. The game is marketed like a cyberpunk MMORPG, yet here many assume that everyone already knows that it is not a “do what you will” with it RPG, but a “get tough so you can eventually PvP” game. It would make a big difference if KK would clear this one up.

No; answering this question will not completely clear up the thread topic that Martin started, but it will shed some light on where they are headed with the game.

Btw - telling someone "...That is the dumbest question I have heard on these forums..." is not a good way to is not a good way to keep a discussion on topic.

Foyle

16-01-03, 04:17

Prankster26193

16-01-03, 04:26

***WARNING IF YOU ARE NEW TO THE GAME DO-NOT, I REPET, DO-NOT GO TO JERIKO!!! its a pker haven, such idiots as joystick and the flowers of happiness clan pk there often,mainly cause alot of n00bs stay there to go outside the city and still train. Please only go into the outlands with a vehical and a high level friend, and donot stop at jeriko. Thankyou***

hoverboy911

16-01-03, 04:34

Originally posted by Gallet
That is the dumbest question I have heard on these forums.
One more thing regarding the need to know where KK is going with this:
I came into this game thinking that I was getting an RPG where I could to fight other players, explore the worlds, craft items, join a guild, participate in in-game events, or whatever else the game offers. Coming to these boards I read that this game is all about PvP, and if you’re not going to be into that, then you might as well take a hike. If Neocron’s main focus is towards PvP/RPG then they should be marketing the game like Planetside, and frankly I’m not interested in paying a monthly fee for that kind of game. It’s far too shallow. When I want to participate in something like that I fire up UT2003 or Battlefield 1942. I have no intentions of paying a monthly fee for a glorified FPS.

I think that it should have been clear from day one what the game is. I have played all of the MMORPGs out there [it’s part of my job actually] and they are all very clear on the box, instructions, and web site as to what you’re getting.

So as stupid as some may think that question is, it will very much help me decide if I want to remain a member of the community.

Psycho Killa

16-01-03, 04:37

Hoverboy take a hike then stop with this marketing towards pvp crap because THERE HAS BEEN NO MARKETING u get your free 6 weeks you see what the game is about i bet within 6 weeks u seen it was about pvp if not your pretty damn slow so whats the big deal cancel your account.

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 05:17

hoverboy911

16-01-03, 06:05

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Hoverboy take a hike then stop with this marketing towards pvp crap because THERE HAS BEEN NO MARKETING u get your free 6 weeks you see what the game is about i bet within 6 weeks u seen it was about pvp if not your pretty damn slow so whats the big deal cancel your account.
Much to your chagrin I’m sticking around until I at least hear from Reakktor, preferably Martin, regarding the direction of Neocron. Unlike others, I am willing to hold my ground and see what Martin & Co. are able to do if in fact they are taking the MMORPG route.

And as for the marketing, well, what is on the box and on the site is all we currently have to go by. Unless, of course, you’re suggesting that someone judge a game by the public forums. If people did that then no one would buy any game because according to a bulk of the posts in any given forum, all games suck.

I like cyberpunk. I like MMORPGs. I looked into it a little and it seemed like they were going to take the PvP/explore/craft/guild path, IE a well balanced game. According to the word of some “vets” here on the forum, this has and always will take the “focus-on-PvP” path. I’ll say it again: they need to be clear about the path that the game is going down. As of right now (on the shelves) it looks like every MMORPG out there, so says the box, so says the site, except that it is in a cyberpunk world. How come I already know what Planetside is? There’s very little info about that game publicly, yet it is very clear to me what it is.

I ask for this to be clear because those who bash LE wearers continue to insist over, and over, and over again that this game is all about PvP, and w/o PvP you may as well quit now.

As of now, the only ones confirming that notion are those who rely on it in the first place, and none of you work at Reakktor, so it has yet to be answered. Is it so hard to understand that I want to know exactly what it is that I’ve purchased?

Psycho Killa

16-01-03, 06:15

Anyways i apoligize for my previous posts today i got home from work to find out my account was expired and kind of took it out on the forums and i guess incidently hoverboy i apoligize for my behavior im sorry.

Now that i have calmed down a bit i will go into the reason i got so mad about this subject. When i first got to this forum i seen people complaining about carebears and how uo started out fun but carebears ruined the game. I at the time had no clue what they where talking about, but recently i have seen people suggesnt mood collars and other such ideas and i realized what they where talking about. I love this game for what it is and id hate to see everyone running around with mood collars that say hey im grumpy today dont pk me or some other silly idea like that.

Anyways hoverboy i apoligize for my behavior and honestly dont think any of your remarks where carebearish i wrongfully took my anger out on u i apoligize.

Bradley stoke by you saying i havent contributed to this post with ur flame of a flame u urself arent contributing to the topic very well are you? hoverbot is capable of defending himself or a mod last i checked u werent a forum moderator why must you act as one? Anyways why must people insist just because someone gets out of hand on A GAME FORUM that they are 13 years old. Ill admit im still young at 19 and can get out of hand at times but doesnt everyone?

Once again i apoligize to hoverboy

Bradleystoke

16-01-03, 06:27

Originally posted by Psycho Killa

Bradley stoke by you saying i havent contributed to this post with ur flame of a flame u urself arent contributing to the topic very well are you? hoverbot is capable of defending himself or a mod last i checked u werent a forum moderator why must you act as one? Anyways why must people insist just because someone gets out of hand on A GAME FORUM that they are 13 years old. Ill admit im still young at 19 and can get out of hand at times but doesnt everyone?

Once again i apoligize to hoverboy

Fair play mate, I take it all back. Takes a strong character to admit openly they've made a boo boo - check my sig, the Aegir quote one, to see how I ah... lapsed into a drunken rage. :D

We may not agree, but I have a lot of respect for you for this post of yours.

me bows to you

hoverboy911

16-01-03, 06:36

Originally posted by Psycho Killa
Once again i apoligize to hoverboy
Thanks bro…

and I totally understand where you’re coming from regarding gimping the game. I’m not for gimping the game as it is either. All I want is for this game to be successful. Successful game = better game for all of us. When Martin asked the question I posed a suggestion that I still feel will bring in more players while allowing the existing player base to go about their business. But, I wholeheartedly agree that they should keep the current servers AND add a No-LE server too. These games are all about options, and that’s pretty much all I suggested.

Anyhow, thanks again... and as always with me on forums, no hard feelings.

LasVegasLocale

16-01-03, 09:51

ashsaber

16-01-03, 10:48

Martin, maybe make it so guards and copbots actually fire on people w/ negative SL and sympathy. Bet the random pking would stop when the pk'er can't even go into his own faction hq because of negative loyalty.

Cubico

16-01-03, 11:17

Originally posted by Kobra007
I've said it 100 times, and i'll keep saying it.. Everquest type games have ruined an entire generation of gamers.. Everquest made peopel AFRAID of dying, and as a consequence, people carry this mentality to every new game they play, including Neocron. Its old people, forget about EQ, and move on, and stop crying over dying, we all die.

The fact is, if dying to a player killer ruins your day, then you need a new type of game. Chances are, Sims Online would be better suited.

You can say it 100 times more but its not true.
I am not afraid to die, as long as its done by NPCs.
But what I really hate is to be getting killed by random killing assholes! Thats it!

Tanks in power armor with rare weapons are killing low- to mid-leveled spies. This is so absolutely stupid and contemptible.
These people have no ethics in any way and should be banned.
These people will destroy Neocron, not the lags, syncs, fatals or whatever.

Archeus

16-01-03, 11:38

Originally posted by Cubico

You can say it 100 times more but its not true.
I am not afraid to die, as long as its done by NPCs.
But what I really hate is to be getting killed by random killing assholes! Thats it!

Tanks in power armor with rare weapons are killing low- to mid-leveled spies. This is so absolutely stupid and contemptible.
These people have no ethics in any way and should be banned.
These people will destroy Neocron, not the lags, syncs, fatals or whatever.

My troll detector exploded!

Cyphor

16-01-03, 11:43

regardless of whether a solution is found yet i think the fact this post has been up for little over a day and has over 200 posts, shows that players do consider pking a major prob, that needs to be dealt with and kk should take note ;)

ZigZag

16-01-03, 11:56

Hoverboy - dont take much notice of most of the stuff on these foums most really does not reflect what is going on ingame.

If you read the manual you will see that this is a game where you roleplay a character set in a violent "post apocalytpic world". It also says in the outer areas of Neocron fights happen on a daily basis and factions battle for power. Your character will be in danger from other players if you take you LE out. If you cannot cope with dying by player then keep LE in.

Depends on how you interpret that. To me it means you can live whatever life you choose. I have done PvP, construction, exploring OP wars - all those things. You could be a total pacifist if you want - you just cant have the best guns if you choose that route. (or you could be like my sister - a pacifist in a clan who is PPU monk ).

Some people for some reason assert that they cannot roleplay (or do these things you mention) if the world is too violent and their character dies. So they want to restrict PvP to something like where a gangster sends you a letter arranging a mugging or he asks you if you are in the mood to be attacked. These are not solutions as this is not the problem - you can roleplay - just accept you gonna die sometimes- its not hard if you keep your mind off things like "13 year old pimply child just Pkd me".

The REAL problem arrises where on servers like Saturn where there are random PKs who think killing low level characters (regardless of faction) over and over is leet. That is to me is what Martin is referring to -Pk where it makes no sense at all. That is the problem that needs addressing- protect the noobs from senseless killing - they dont have the money to pay bounties etc - so the idea of no disadvantage for the LE at low levels is a step in the right direction. It is a difficult enough game to learn as it is. I really do think that putting them all in a faction where they are allies with every other faction will protect them as well. If you kill noobs you WILL lose soullight - and the copbots do shoot you on sight. (they shoot at -16 soullight). Then if your soullight is really low you can be hunted using the citycom as in Beta.

BTW if your middle to high level - I hear the mercs are dying of starvation on Pluto from no work - please support them.

Strife

16-01-03, 12:02

Cubico must be under the impression that in a CyberPunk setting everyone has morals and ethics.

Okay, very simple question: if NC is all about PvP why should I buy it in the first place if I want a RPG?

I can't see any sticker, sign, almost naked hostess anywhere saying 'Don't waste you're money on this game if you don't want lots of PvP'...

but I see the word MMORPG just about everywhere...Heh, if ya want Roleplaying, good luck finding it in a MMORPG.

grav

16-01-03, 12:07

okay as far as i can remember i have not moaned/whined about PKing at all since i started the game - but i have now cancelled my account due to this - PKing is all very well in an MMORPG but something has to be done when it starts to get out of hand like it now seems to be getting - i think my turning point on the PK situation was when i had just hit lvl 23, a friend took me to the lvl 4 sewers (or whatever it was in plaza) , my friend being 10-15 lvls higher than me was showing me the sort of mobs he was going up against - all was going well, i was holding my own against the weaker mobs while my friend was taking on the big gits then all of a sudden i see "KILL THE NOOBS" appear on screen and im lying dead on the floor after a few shots, i beleive it was the likes of artricia and joystick doing the honours as well

i keep coming back to the forums in the small hope that martin j schweiser and the KK team see the light and realise that things need to change - fyi guys i work for a major computer game retailer in the uk, we do get a steady supply of neocron coming into the store, since the game came out we have sold something in the region of 6 copies( 1 for me, 2 for other members of staff and 3 regular customers) as far as i can tell after speaking to those customers they have already quit and there is only 1 member of staff still playing

Strife

16-01-03, 12:16

okay as far as i can remember i have not moaned/whined about PKing at all since i started the game - but i have now cancelled my account due to this Ya Pk'ing has been bad for awhile, no penalties have really been implented that actually make a person think twice about pking.

I don't pretend to know how KK works, but you'd think they'd get the game working decently and get stuff working that was suppose to work a year ago before moving on to work on expansion packs already. To me that's pretty much saying "Who cares what they are complaining about, we will give them more stuff to play with to shut them up."

LasVegasLocale

16-01-03, 12:18

Originally posted by Strife
Heh, if ya want Roleplaying, good luck finding it in a MMORPG.

might be... thou my experience is that there can really be RP in a MMORPG...

still MMORPG is not PvP-FPS...

at least I don't see MMORPG anywhere on that UT2003 box... ;)

mongoose

16-01-03, 12:28

I read Zigs post and found myself agreeing 100%

I am also from an FPS background and whilst I hate dying (doesn't everyone) I have been amazed at the vitriol that some people are responding with. Nothing in Neocron is irreplacable (well will be irreplaceable with the return of lvl 3 implants).

I like the idea of NO cop bots in Pepper Park. I like the idea of NO safezones.

Why? Well if there are No safezones - wimp pks who zone out of cellars when they get hit have no safe place to go. I am still with Martin in that I think the community needs the power to regulate itself. you should be judged by your peers in all games online.

I like the idea that you start factionless and joining a faction is a reward (and should be rewarded with a special faction ability - perhaps all biotech get +10 Implant - all TG get +10 to melee combat, tangent get +10 to high tech combat, Crahn - +10 psi use, Make your faction affect your character)

Also if your faction rating falls below 40 - sionara special ability.

A good way with faction guards might be to have a threshold - if your rating with that faction is -1 or under - you are KOS otherwise - they ignore you.

This won't stop random pks - but it will effect what happens when they kill people. Finally - the only true warzones should be oPs- everywhere else should be anarchy zones

M.

LasVegasLocale

16-01-03, 13:07

Originally posted by mongoose
Finally - the only true warzones should be oPs- everywhere else should be anarchy zones

M.

This of course would change NC completely: form safe cities on a wild, chaotic world to a pure anarchy world where safety is only in HQs (maybe)...

meaning: no Neocron... because how could a completely chaotic, lawless, anarchistic city work/survive?

Total anarchy could be interesting... but if you want to go that way Reakktor, give them players a fair warning...

yibble

16-01-03, 13:10

At least we could re-taliate against the very few thieving phony tradeskillers :)... What no tip for a poke? BLAM BLAM! :)

5150

16-01-03, 13:25

I'll just make a couple of general observations since I've said everything I feel I need to on this subject.

Its funny that the PKers automatically assume you are a 'carebear' if you dont agree with mindless PKing regardless of level difference, its almost like these people thing there are only 2 positions in this debate, your either a PK or a carebear. Its a shame to be so narrow minded.....

Fot those of you who think that Neocron is a FPS first and an RPG second, let me just give you a couple of things to think about...

FPS dont have 'experience' they are single login session affairs (even single levels affairs). You all start the same, and appart from your weapon (which you generally find lying on the floor) theres little to no advancement. Everyone is created equal and a player just joining the game has as good a chance to win 'statistically' as a player whos been in the game for an hour (player ability and tactics notwithstanding).

Neocron has 'experience', generally speaking the longer you play the better your character will get (gimping your skills notwithstanding) the more money you'll have and the better weapon you can buy/loot, all player skill aside this immediately creates a situation where a new character has 0 chance against an established characters, and that is completely against the principles of a FPS

All this talk of 'Neocron is a PvP game' has lead me to look at the box again. At best the impression of Neocron I get is that it is a MMORPG with a FPS combat system. Now to understand what that means you need to compare combat in a traditional RPG with combat in a FPS.....

Effectiveness in FPS combat is basically dictated by the skill and reflexes of the player (hence 'twitch combat') while your weapon will determine the amount of damage you deal (subject to the any armour the target has) whether or not you hit is between your skill and the skill of your opponent.

Effectiveness in RPG combat is based completely on the skill of your character. You select the target to attack, press the attack button and watch the computer work out the results. While your weapon will determine damage (again subject to armour) theres nothing you can really do to increase the number of times you hit, or decrease the amount you get hit. Moving may or may not make a difference (generally you stop attacking while moving though) success is determined by how hard your target is and to a certain degree luck.

Now alot of people dont like RPG combat, they feel they have no control (these people generally also play FPS games) and feel restricted by the game mechanics. Neocrons system attempts to combine the best elements of FPS combat with an RPG. Your skills still play a big part in if you hit (which is neccessary to balance the game between players of the same level) and your weapon still determines damage but the player is required to keep the target in sight and initiate each attack but can attempt to stay out of his targets sight in the process.

The only problem with this system is people, and the only way to stop people being a problem is to restrict them with game mechanics. Restrictions are bad (everyone likes freedom of choice) but players inability to conduct themselves will always result in restrictions because fun must always win! (the golden rule) everything will lose against Fun, realism will even lose against fun. If its not fun you can expect it to get changed. Fun is why people pay to play, fun is what attracts them and fun is what keeps them, if your actions prevent someone from enjoying this game you can expect to be stopped (either by being banned or more game mechanics introduced)

You may be having fun, but your victims arent. You can still have the same 'fun' by attacking like minded players of your own level.

Longinius

16-01-03, 13:37

"You may be having fun, but your victims arent. You can still have the same 'fun' by attacking like minded players of your own level."

This is the one point you were not correct at :)

They wont have as fun because players of their own level could actually kick their ass and they wouldnt "own" their victims, which seems to be the key factor to most of these PKers.

Deighton

16-01-03, 14:08

The best post was so far from 5150!!! (This is ment serious)

I only can do

ATOMROTFLMAO!

for the promised MMORPG side. So far it turns out for me (and some more dudes) only as a better CS. Really! When some thoughts would be pulled out of some really good thought over posts, this game would become this, what it is wanted to be.

PK belongs to the game (faction based, warzone based), but to RandomPK, or to able to RandomPK, this should be regimentated. Heavily!

Even yesterday were some of my clan members PK'ed. Just right of the blue, not having any chance to react! This all really slows my fun of playing the game down fast. RandomPK is much to easy and the penalty for a RandomPK does not harm anybody! I will keep an eye on it, because being shot out of the blue with a chance to react, sux.

To point it out clear: I bought this game for 80% to be able to do RPG. And 10% to do some fights vs. mobs. The rest of 10% i saw as PvP, as a must, you cannot avoid. And this was ok for me. But at this very stage, it is 80% PvP, those CS buddies, and then 10% Getting reimped and 10% waiting the Impairment wearing off.

So Mr. MJS, do something or watch many going. Accept that ppl want the MMORPG and not a Shooter with nice inviroment. When i want this, i buy Unreal Tournament.

Guu

16-01-03, 14:17

About the LE: it should have penalties. Dont make it a no penalty thing, at no time. The gameworld of Neocron is no save place, so if you want it to besave in spite of that, there should be a penalty for that. But: the penalties as is are too harsh. First up, the higher weapon requirements are pointless and the real main reason ppl take the thing out at low levels. The XP penalty isnt a big hinderance when one starts out, levels still come fast. But if I wanna use a Junkknife and it needs 15 STR instead of 12, thats annoying.
Also, since the LE needs a brainslot, youre behind even more and cant compensate for the higher requirements. If nothing else, at least make a seperate slot for the chip.

Of cause, whatever changes take place or dont take place, one thing stays the same: the LE is the only tool a newbie has to be save. Thats what KK designed it for. So if one takes it out and gets killed, one has no right whatsoever to complain about it. That is that the PKs are right about.
BUT: PKs fail to mention that there is no reliable way to find a PK to extract revenge. RPKs dont care who they kill (hence the R), but someone who wants to make the sewers save has to know where the PKs are. As is, one has to rely on player info for that. Problem is, player info is slow to get around, so once word reaches me that (insert PKs name here) is in the P1 sewer, he will already be killing stuff in P3/P2/whereever.
The idea mentioned earlier about making people wih negative SL trackable is a very good one, imo. SL penalties should also be increased for a Kill, so that one reaches -16 with no more then 2 kills.

As for solving the problem in the existing system: a bunch of Highlevels could open a clan and actively offer newbies to join it. The advantage is simple: clanchat. If someone is killed in the sewer/sees a known PK/hears of one, he gives a shout and the highlevels know and can act. Once word gets out about that clan, ppl who arent in it will know who to contact as well. And with a good conster building masses of newb weapons, loosing something wont be a problem...
I think I like this Idea. Only problem is that no many highlevels will want to make this their permanent profession.